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Welcome to Dick It Happen Here, a podcast coming to you from a week where decades are happening. I'm your host Nia. Long with me is James Stout Hi May great to be here and also with us as Talia Jane, an independent journalist covering social movements and protests who is currently covering the Gaza solidarity encampments at Columbia University. Talia, Welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me, guys.
Hey, thanks for doing you guys.
Hell yeah, yeah.
So I'm excited. I'm excited to talk about the Columbia occupation. I also want to briefly mention that there are a lot of there's been a wave of occupations of campuses across the country just right now. This is being recorded on Wednesday night. By the time this goes up on like Friday, a lot of the stuff we're going to be saying is probably going to be at a date because everything's moving really quickly. But I mean there's occupations
obviously like Columbia. There's like CSU, Humboldt, University of Texas, at Austin, Ohio, State Harvard, Yale, Berkeley, some University in Italy, Emerson Tuffs, MIT, NYU, City, University of New York, the New Schools, University of Rochester, University of Pittsburgh USC, University of Minnesota, University of Michigan, Vanderbilt UNC, Chapel Hill. I mean, there's so many of these. By the time that this goes up, there will be more of them. Yeah, it's
been wild. There's been a lot of I mean at Humboldt there was a lot of very intense fighting with the police. A bunch of kids occupied a building. They beat the shit while Okay, that's going a bit too far, but they barricaded it, kept the cops from coming in, cops ran off of campus. So, lots of incredibly wild stuff happening. Yeah, which I guess brings us to the Gauza the I guess the original one, the first one they got a lot of media attention, the Gauza Solidarity Acampment at Columbia.
Yeah.
So, Telly, I wanted to ask you, so, how did this sort of start and what's kind of been making it different from the really pretty large number of other Free Palestine anti genocide protests that have been on campuses and off campuses for the past, Like time at six seven months.
Yeah, well, I think the genesis of this was that Columbia University, as we've seen in universities across the country, suspended a number of pro Palestine advocacy student groups. They were very slow to move their feet about targeted attacks against students who were demonstrating for Palestine, including an incident where someone was allegedly sprayed with a chemical irritant, or people were sprayed with a chemical irritant by former IOF
soldiers who are also students here. And just this, you know, building tension of there is a actual genocide occurring, and universities are being forced to bend towards the people committing the genocide instead of standing on the right side of history, or they're actively choosing to do that too, because their whole thing is not about actually educating people and preparing them to be tomorrow's leaders and managers or baristas, but to get people, you know, to give them money to
fill their coffers and portray this image of you know, exceptionalism and elitism and whatnot. So that was the genesis. And then on Tuesday night I got a text at like eleven pm, I want to say, asking me if I wanted to come cover a late night slash early morning de occupation demo. And this was from someone I'd never talked to before. I had no idea who it was, but they said it was a Columbia and they said
it was late night, early morning. I thought I'd be out of here at you know, ten am the next day, and then, you know, standing there witnessing it all unfold, it became pretty evident that that was not the case. And I think the reason why this stands out is because this is an elite university where you can't say, oh, well, these are just dumb TikTok kids. These are kids who have like the these are like adults who have you know,
they have incredible resumes, really high academic excellence. They got into an extremely difficult school to get into, and they are joining the ranks of the you know, frazzled fringe, stinky anarchists and the silly kids who are being brainwashed by TikTok. And they said, like, no, those people are right, like this is bad and you need to disclose and divest and we're not going to stop until you do. And I think that that stance from a position of
fledge really shook things up. What followed also set a tone of the university deciding to call the police and claiming that this encampment was it posed a clear and present danger to the safety of students on campus, which you know, anyone who has spent any length of time in or around the encampment can plainly see that that is nonsensical. It's absurd. These are kids that are studying
on a lawn. But that choice of bringing the NYPD in and having one hundred and eight students arrested by the NYPD Strategic Response Group, which is their you know, counter terrorism goon squad that violently represses protests pretty consistently, to have them arrest one hundred nate people, including carrying them out from by their arms and lengths and arresting legal observers. You know that that was like this is that it was an outsized response for something that was straightforward.
They're hanging out on a lawn. They have everything set
up to sustain within that space. They are not going out and roaming around and you know, breaking things or assaulting people or anything like that, and they're just using this to call attention to their cause, which is divestment from genocide and from you know, war profiteering and to and the school's gentrification of Harlem and to you know, a institute an academic boycott of Israel and Israeli campuses that are in community with Colombia, like their satellite schools,
that bring the IOF soldiers to Colombia to commit harm against students here. And you know, so these are these are very basic asks and they were met with state force, signed off by the president of the school. And seeing that, I think is what provoked a lot of other schools of like Columbia's doing it. Then we definitely got to because you have a major elite institution taking this step making clear that this is not just a cause that you know, the scrappy little weirdos at the bottom like
me care about, you know. And so I think that's what set it off. And the fact that they returned they just took over the other lawn while while their classmates were being processed after being arrested, they just took over the other one and they're like, all right, we're gonna set it up here was such a hilariously like based move that it was like the defiance and the
determination was undeniable. And when you see a group like with the students at Humboldt, where the cops with the riot shields are trying to barge in and they're pushing them back and they're screaming get the fuck out, and they're bonking them over the head with the empty water jug.
When you see things like that, yeah, when you see things like that, it's very like there is an energy to this that has always been there but that has not been very easily seen by the masses, and we're now seeing it show its head of like, no, we're not fucking around, like you need to listen to us.
We're tired of the song and dance game that you're doing dismissing all of our valid concerns because we know concretely and statistically that we are on the right side of history, and we're going to make you listen and trust that if you beat us up, we're coming back. Like we're not going away. It doesn't scare us, which is what the kids at a UT Austin were chanting. I think when they brought the horses and the state
troopers in. It's like, we're not scared of you. And that tone has permeated throughout the demonstration's four Palace to New Liberation since in prior to October. But if you don't follow the protests, or if you only go by what the major news outlets are saying about them, you don't see that tone. So this, for me, is not surprising. This is a continuation of an energy that has not ceased for upwards of six months. I think it's the two hundred and first day of the genocide. So it's
not surprising for people who've paid attention. It's a relief for kids who are here and who have been involved, and who have been silenced and ignored and written off this whole time. It's a very long answer.
I know that's a good one, though. I think it's a It's great to have your perspective if someone who's been on the ground. One thing I wanted to ask is, like, obviously, this is a protest that its core is about state violence, and it has predictably enough, been responded to with state violence, And like you said that, people were really not swayed by that. I wonder if you've seen people who kind of had the opposite reaction, Like I kind of remember
the student protests that I have been involved in. I'm just going to say that, and I can remember, like the reaction by students when seeing that fellow students being assaulted by the police was like, okay, fuck this, Like you know, like Georgio Wah has this thing about like when I see a real flesh and blood worker of fighting is natural lending me the policeman. I don't have to ask myself what side I'm on, Like did you find the same thing with students where they were like okay,
I wasn't out here. And now I've seen the way the university and the cops have responded to this, and now I'm coming out because it's not okay.
The encampment went up Wednesday and it was forcibly removed with arrests on Thursday, I think, or was it Friday. I don't remember. It was a long time ago. For me, it's fine, But prior to the encampment being taken down, the possibility of it provoked a significant response from the student body here at Columbia to show up and rally around the encampment all night. They did this march, this
daisy chain where they were chanting. The more you try to silence us the louder we will be and disclose, divest, We will not stop, We will not rest all night around the encampment to keep it safe and to show that they had larger support beyond the students who chose to stay on the lawn at risk of being arrested. After they were arrested, more students came onto the other lawn and have continued to occupy that second lawn. So
absolutely it was a strissand effect. They tried to shut it down, and it made people feel very strongly that they need to show up and put themselves on the line as well. And they also I think they saw what I think it also showed them what the state does and what the university does, and seeing it firsthand eliminates a lot of the mystery that, you know, the fear that can circulate of like the uncertainty of it.
Seeing what it looks like, they're like, oh whatever. And now they're seeing, you know, videos of protesters being brutalized on other campuses, and like I heard, someone told me last night. They said that they overheard someone like talking to another student on the lawn and they were like, oh, so you a jail support They're like, yes, you're there, Like it's it's this sort of they're gonna they're gonna do what they're gonna do. We don't care, like because
these are the threat of violence. Physical harm, is a threat to cease whatever it is that you're doing, of academic harm. These are things that are trying to get you to stop doing what you're doing. And when you know that they are being deployed as tools and tactics, you're not going to stop because they're not scary to you. Well, what are you gonna do. You're gonna suspend me for joining in a historic protest? Okay, see if I care, you know, I think that's the energy for a lot of students.
Yeah, unfortunately we need to go to ads for a second, but I don't know, skip them and we'll be back in however long it takes you to press the forward button like six times and we are back. So, something I wanted to ask about. I've been seeing a lot of stuff floating around about the negotiations that are happening
between the university and the students. I want to know what have you actually heard about these because the statements that have been coming out don't seem to really be matching anything else I've seen going on on the ground. Do you know what's happening.
So the university has taken a stance of this is clearing present danger, It is disruptive, it is harmful, et cetera. That's because it's impeding with them building stairs and stadium seating for the commencement that's happening in a couple of weeks. So you know, it's like that's that's the clear and present danger is that it's costly for them to have to wait to complete this this setup. But my understanding is that the students are very much holding their ground,
very firm, and their their demands are very reasonable. It's saying, like, tell us where your money comes from, so we can look into it and see that you're keeping your nose clean. This isn't a difficult to ask. I think if you ask to see my receipts, I could hill to you. Although I'm not an elite university, but I'm also not you know, profiting off of weapons manufacturing. And so the university's stance is very much trying to kind of spook
them into quitting. And there was a statement released by the president last night at four am, saying that the students made some concessions, two of which were things that they're already doing, one of which was an easy adjustment that's not a concession, which was just making the camp more ADA accessible and in compliance with FD and Y regulations for fire safety, which I think would be crazy if a fire broke out at this camp. Anyway, I
was a tangent. And then there was a thing saying that they're going to be ending negotiations in forty eight hours and with the students reported out from those negotiations at the time was at the university at around midnight threatened to call in the National Guard and to call
in the NYPD, and that shut down negotiations. And it was only after they put out these wide spread calls and thousands of people gathered on the lawn in support of the encampment that that was changed and the university agreed in writing to not call the YPD and to not mobilized National Guard, which I don't think they have the authority to do regardless, but it was this written concession from the university, and their perspective of it was
that the students provided concessions, and I think it's kind of it speaks to who each side is speaking to. The students are speaking to the movement that they have kind of shepherded into existence, and the university is speaking to their donors and their trustees and the right wingers who are having nuclear meltdowns on Twitter.
That's something else I wanted to sort of ask about, because I it's kind of hard for me to a sense of it. Like, Okay, so house Bike Johnson, who is a utterly deranged session Zionist.
Yeah, like you mean the new Churchill mea god like real weirdo, like anti evolution guy he's been he said, he said that like he's going to go to.
Congress and call for the National Guard deplay, which also does it make any sense because Congress I don't can't do it either, But I think you're trying to get like the governor, But like, what what do you think of the actual odds of a national guard to point? Because I've heard a lot of talk about it and I can't gauge it at all.
So Hochel has said that that's not on the table, I believe, and there's no interest from what I can tell of the actual elected reps in calling in the
National Guard. There is interest from Eric Adams, who is a former cop and basically still a cop, to use the NYPD, and the NYPD has been very allergic to when the National Guard comes out here because they want to be the ones cracking skulls and being in charge of brutalizing New Yorkers, and they take a great offense when someone else comes in and does it for them, So they wouldn't really be on board with the National Guard mobilizing here either. The school doesn't have the authority
to do that. It's only the governor. The governor hasn't made any indication, and Mike Johnson is doing conservative stunt work. He was joined by Elise Staphonik, who is a conservative and you know she regularly disseminates disinformation and inflammatory propaganda
to demonize unhoused people, migrants, queer people. So it's no surprise that they're you know, banging this drum, which was also pushed by Shy davidy or however he pronounce his name, who's an assistant professor here, who attempted to hold a rally in the center of the Cause of Solidarity encampment with a slew of Zionists and his ID card was deactivated and he found out in real time time in front of a bunch of cameras that he called to
come watch him. It was It's one of those things that you witness in real time that you feel like you're you're living in a movie. But it was great. And he had a nuclear tantrum and claimed that it was because he wasn't safe on campus when he was
told that his protest was not safe for their students. So, you know, I think it's we're seeing a lot of rhetoric and a lot of saber rattling from the far right, from conservatives, from people who have never had any kind of support for Palestinians or for the cause of Palestinian liberation. You know, Mike Johnson makes he receives over a quarter
million dollars from APAC. You know, these are these are not people whose statements should be taken seriously in the context of what is possible, what is reasonable, and what is you know, reality to put it nicely, yeah.
Yeah, I think a reason it's fascinating, like, at least to me, Like I went to a fancy university, you know, and engaged in plenty of including pro Palestine actions when I was there. But a thing that I see, like as a journalist now, is that the right wing and wealthy folks generally seem to see that Ivy League universities,
particularly in the US, is like their safe space. And I think the reason that they're so mad at this is that they feel like it's not just that it's happening, it's it's where it's happening, and like that that's called them to have these massive tantrums like you've reported on.
Yeah, I mean, there's the there's there's it's it's all hypocrisy for them because on the one hand, these are liberal universities who are ushering in an era of DEI and purple hair and queer kids. And then on the other side, these are sacred spaces of learning and higher education that no one should have access to unless they're you know, grandparents are in the Arian Brotherhood. So it's it's one of those things where it kind of depends on the day about how they feel about really elite
campuses of higher learning. But it doesn't matter either way. They don't care. They don't actually care. They just hate the cause and will do anything they can to bring it to a halt. But the DNA of this cause is to keep going regardless of the efforts to stop it.
Right, And it wasn't so long ago that everyone was up in arms. When I say everyone on the right was up and arms about campus free speech, which is something that seems have likely been forgotten in the last couple of weeks. It's like, we've all seen videos in Texas today, right of the DPS and state troopers and horses and bikes. So they lived to missuse bikes. But yeah, it's I guess the hipocoty is kind of the point with those people.
Yeah, I mean, like Mike Johnson made his speech today on the steps of the Low Library. He was talking about how you know there was a repression of free speech on campus, but then in the same breath he said that and that's why I want to call in
the National Guard to eliminate this protest. Their argument is that this protest is inherently anti Semitic because it rejects the state of Israel and the genocide and apartheid that the state has been doing since its inception and prior to its inception of the Palestinian people, and in the IHRA. In the IHRA definition of anti semitism, it is any criticism of the state of Israel, which would include people who are living in Israel criticizing their own government would
be labeled as anti Semitic. And they're trying to redefine reality in real time by claiming that these students who just don't want for mass death to be occurring and they don't want their university to be responsible in facilitating that, are somehow anti Semitic. Meanwhile, a large number of them are Jews themselves, who you know they held satter at the start of Passover.
Yeah, I think, uh maybe do you know bing One, a photojournalist, Yeah, withtual friend being being took this photo, which went viral on Twitter. I stories in the New York Times of a Jewish graduate student just like sitting on a folding chair being like, now I'm fine, I don't feel unsafe here.
Oh yeah, I mean that's like, That's the thing is that the people who feel quote unquote unsafe are also the people who are known antagonizers of pro Palestine demonstrations. These are the kids that bought like fart spray from Amazon to spray on students who were demonstrating peacefully. These are students who show up with giant flags outside of
Columbia University to antagonize people. They brought thick wooden poles with flags fixed to them to a demonstration on Wall Street the week prior to this encampment launching, and they were antagonizing people, They were getting in, they were trying to, you know, instigate arguments with people, and you know, they were just kind of trying to incite, and then they claim to be victims when people respond to their inciting behavior, and it's very much like an abusive mentality that they have.
But in terms of like actual anti Semitism, all of that, all of that rhetoric ends up being a distraction from actual instances of anti Semitism. And the more that you try to fuse the political ideology of Zionism with the prejudice against Jewish people for being Jewish, the more you try to fuse those together as one thing, like you know, fusing Jewish identity to Zionism, the more you see instances
of anti Semitism actually antisemitism. So, if anything, like the students who are coming in cheering on Israel and boasting about the murderers of you know, tens of thousands of children, the starvations and the displacements of millions people. The more that they do that, the more that teaches people like, oh, maybe all Jews are like that, maybe all Jews are bad.
And then I end up getting DMS from people photoshopping my face into an oven calling for my death when you know, I don't give a fuck about the state of Israel. I don't give a fuck about any states, you know. So it's just it's it's one of those things like this is like they are they are planting toxic seeds and then flipping out when they sprout.
Talking of toxic seeds, now is the time for some marketing professionals to plant some toxic seeds in your mind. As we take our second advertising break. All right, well we're back. I hopeully haven't bought anything since we last spoke, Tylia. I wanted to talk a little bit about a thing. Thing that we've seen a lot is like this idea of like the universe, and this happens at every protest
movement right like the state, the university, whatever. Will seek to appoint people leaders and allow them to negotiate on behalf of everyone, even if those people have not consented to be negotiated for, and then they'll use that to corrupt the movement, offer concessions that these particular people might want, and in doing so kind of defang the original sort
of protest. Is that something that you've seen happening or the university's tried to do to like divide people or to kind of pull people out and appoint them as leaders.
They've suspended the people that they believe to be primary student organizers, but in terms of other divisions, they have not been successful. These are students organizing with their classmates. It's not possible for some outside group to infiltrate that space because they are not students at this university. You know, there's SJP chapters that students are members of in their schools, but they are ultimately making the choices of what their SJP chapter is doing. And you know a lot of
those SJP chapters have been suspended. So, you know, I think in terms of the possibility of the university having any sort of in to build some sort of op is very low. The solidarity that we're seeing is I don't think I've seen levels of people on the same page and able to organize the literacy of it is
just phenomenal. You know, there's people who are just they're all very like clearly knowledgeable about what it is that they're organizing for, what the risks are, what the history of the movement is, and they've spent a lot of time learning those things to make sure that when they decide to take a step forward, that they are doing so fully informed and fully empowered. And trying to break that down is something that has not been successful. And
we've seen that, you know, time and time again. They have this chance. The more you try to silence us, the louder we will be. And it's true, and these institutions should probably start believing it because it would save them a lot of trouble by you know, trying to write this off is something that you know, people don't know what they're doing or you know, whatever it is,
because they are they know everything. They know everything. These are kids that all they do is study, you know, like you're talking about huge nerds joining into a massive, you know, decades long social movement. They've done the reading.
Yeah, talking people who's done the reading. I wanted to talk about like faculty because I know a lot of people who are faculty at university's listened to this podcast, and I'm sure they're interested in, like how faculty have been in solidarity with students there, how they can be in solidarity with their own students. Have you seen that? Have you seen faculty showing up?
Oh? Oh yeah. There was a massive faculty walk out the other day between Barnard and Columbia faculty members. The schools are kind of related, They're right across the street from each other, and they have a lot of overlap. Barnard's kind of under slightly under the university the Columbia umbrella,
but still has then president and things like that. And there was a huge faculty walkout from both campuses that gathered on the Low the steps of the Low Library, and it was easily hundreds I would say, maybe like five hundred people and that was it. That was it Columbia and then NYU. The students set up an encampment and they were surrounded by faculty who had linked arms as a as a datacy chain around the encampment to
protect the students. So we're seeing a very real, you know, multi layer of solidarity emerging in these spaces, And I think it's you know, even if the even if professors and faculty don't necess cssarily wholly agree or wholly understand,
they're not fully on the same wavelength as the student organizers. Necessarily, they're still showing up on the basis of, like, these students of the right to express their opinions, and they should not be getting met with severe academic or state discipline for doing so, because we've seen these same campuses open their doors to people like Charlie Charlie Kirk and Gavin McGinnis and you know, like white supremacists and white nationalists who are able to go on their campuses and
spread hate and you know, right going disinformation and try and recruit people through their you know, Young Republican School chapters. Those chapters aren't being disbanded. You know, there's there isn't an urgent rush to prevent the hosting of white nationalists and white supremacists and you know, people who are.
Actually and intensely anti Semitic to an extreme, they're not doing anything to actually like prevent those people from appearing on campus. So I think that there's there's a lot of layers to it, but there is a very strong surge of faculty saying like, hey, this is this is fucked up, and we're not We're not going to let you think that this is just kids that you're picking on, like you're also attacking your own staff, who you know, has a longer relationship to.
The university, has a you know, as hard as it is as it is for these kids to get into the school, it's harder to get hired to work here, and so you know, we're seeing a lot of that. There's also security people who were put in charge of evicting students from their rooms at Barnard because Barnard has chosen that students at Barnard who participated in this demo, they weren't only going to be suspended temporarily, but evicted from their housing, banned from campus, unable to access any
food or meal plans. Where is the Columbia students have been suspended are still able to access housing and meal plans, but they aren't allowed to go to class or any campus events, which is fine because the only one that's happening right now is the encampment. But you know, there was there was a security person who sent me email to the school at Barnard saying like I quit, like this is this is inhumane, this is undignified, this is crazy.
You're giving these students fifteen minutes to uproot themselves from their rooms. They might not have another place to go. These you know, these might be students who don't have a family's house nearby or you know, or the funds or the means to live somewhere else and not worry about the cost. You're you know, destabilizing people's lives in a very severe way. And this this you know, security
person resigned. They're like this is nuts. So I think there's there's the fact that just the the overall what is of how these universities are responding has provided a type of solidarity. And then there's also the fact that a lot of people just generally understand that genocide is bad, and it's gotten to a point where there's a lot of rhetoric trying to obscure that and obfuskate like what
is genocide? And you know, israel isseroid t exist in all this other like bullshit like propaganda and disinformation and you know, fear mongering and all these things. And people can see very clearly what the game is, and so we're kind of at a pivotal moment for just common reality and critical thinking. And I think that we're seeing a lot of people show that the efforts to alter what our established common reality is is not working.
And this brings means is the thing I wanted to close on, which is, where do you see this going?
Oh, I'm gonna need a minute on that one. I mean, I mean, you know, we're at a very pivotal moment in history. There's a lot of comparisons being made to protests against the Vietnam War, and in those protests, there was a lot of state violence, a lot of state repression, but there was also a lot of people willing to throw down in a very intense way. And you know, we're already seeing levels to that that have very very strong parallels, you know, with Lake Aaron Bushmell, which is
also a story that I ended up breaking. And you know, like, so this is this is big, and I think that right now, in the midst of it, it's hard to guess what's going to happen two weeks from now or six months from now. But I guarantee you we all know what's going to happen fifty years from now. We're all going to look at this fifty years from now and be like, Wow, Stay was on some dumb shit. Those parts were right, and it's good that they didn't stop totally.
Yeah, I think that's a great place to end, Talia. I wonder if you would like to let people know where they can find you, where they can read your work, how they can support your work.
Sure, so I mostly report live on Twitter, Talia otg as in on the ground, and you can support me by signing up on Patreon for hopefully more than five dollars a month. Those those small donations cover the entirety of my living and survival and allow for me to do this work for the past four years. So I'm like incredibly grateful. You know, people can support on Patreon. They can also if you just want to do like a one time heard you on the pod and loved it.
I have like a PayPal and a Venmo and all that other shit on my Twitter account if people want to send a couple couple bucks that way, And you know, another way to support is send me tips if you if you decide that you're gonna do something, feel free to you know email and bio. I always I always want.
To know Senda, all your all your tips, especially if you're at Columbia University. Anything else do you want to plug or me or anything else need to do before we go.
I'm sorry that my voice sounds really like this. It's I don't think i've I haven't gotten a lot of sleep, and I hope that everything I said was coherent, even though I was just giving you essay after essay after essay.
It was fantastic. Thank you so much, Shallie.
Thank you so much, and thank you guys. It's something I could say from everyone that they could happen here. From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.
Fuck him, fuck him up, keep yeah, fucking get him.
It could happen here as a production the cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could Happen here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
