All media. Hi everyone, and welcome to the show. It's me James today and I'm joined once again by Kirsten Zitlau. We've heard from her before. She's an immigration lawyer who takes asylum cases, and we're going to talk about the asylum system or I guess what's left of it today. Kirsten is representing somebody I met, the Darien gap Primrose, who you've heard from before. So we're going to talk about that case and then we're going to talk a
little bit about ice detentions inside immigration court. Welcome to the show, Kristin.
Thank you, James, it's good to be here.
Yeah, thanks for thanks for coming. I know you're extremely busy. Can you explain to us, like the asylum system is essentially coming to an end, right, we are not getting new asylum cases, Like what is the situation for people in the asylum system right now?
Yes, that's a correct statement, James. So there are no new asylum cases. In other words, people who cross at the Southern Order are now detained only to be removed immediately basically or as soon as possible, under what's called two twelve F authority. It's under the Immigration and Nationality Act.
Trump has used this authority, which basically broadly says that if the President finds a certain class of immigrants or the entry of immigrants would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, they made by proclamation, you know,
suspend all entry have said immigrants. So that was the purpose and the effect of the executive order discussing the invasion at the border, and all the other executive orders discussing invasions and criminal aspects such as cartels and trender ragua, which we all know now is you know, is the justification for alleged justification for just shutting it down at
the border. So whereas people used to get credible fear interviews or were parolled into the United States to be allowed to fight an asylum case, none of that is happening anymore. And people are, if anything, only screened for what's called Convention against Torture screenings to just determine like, hey, are they going to be portrayed by their government or with the acquiescence of their government if they returned to
their home country. But even then they are not allowed to remain in the United States or fight any relief in the United States. That just means that they will be deported to a third country. So that was a situation like when we saw the Iranians sitting in the hotel room in Panama, That's what happened there most likely.
So that's the situation at the southern border. Whoever is still in the United States, you know, who came in before in Operation Day, is still allowed to fight their case as of now, but there are no new asylum cases essentially, right.
So for those people fighting their case, the asylum system was already an uphill battle, right, and it became hot after Biden's asylum ban. It's already had after title forty two. Like people who listen to the show will have known about the people who crushed in twenty twenty three, and of course they would have followed those people who I'm in the drying gap, some of whom very few of whom crushed before January. I literally one I believe that
I'm aware of. Can you explain what the asylum system is like for those people now?
Yeah?
So I think the biggest two factors affecting asylum cases these days is what you just referred to, which is the asylum ban called the circumvention against lawful pathways that barred people essentially from asylum if they did not use CBP one the application to apply for an appointment, which of course only allowed I think fifteen hundred a day or something absurd, forcing most people to cross unlawfully. So that's still very much in place. The litigation has been
stalled forever. There's no hope of you know, I don't think there's no movement on that. I haven't seen or heard anything. Yeah, most likely intentionally because when Trump did a similar ban, it was overturned immediately. So this is like a new strategy that we're seeing where things are
just lagging in court right. You know, for example, just a quick side detour the birthright citizenship issue got up to the Supreme Court real quick, whereas the asylum issue, meaning the border shut down to asylum, is still languishing somewhere before. I think even just a federal district judge is not even in any appeal court yet. So this is all I think, it's strategic, so that circumventioning as
lawful pathways ban is still very much an impediment. You know, we all of course argue that every migrant in Mexico was in danger and thus qualifies for the exception to the CLP that their life was in danger and they couldn't afford to wait the many many months for the CBP one appointment. But judges it's been met with mixed reviews. They generally like to see like somebody basically near death
for the exception to apply. And of course the immigration bar argues that all migrants are basically under threat of death. Any cartel or even immigration official contact in Mexico could have been a death sentence very easily, as we all know.
Yeah, so that's a big thing affecting.
The latest thing that's also being implemented as a result of this cartel terrorist organization designation is you know where it's not just the cartels is MS thirteen and ten dew Ragua is that there's a what's called a trig bar that's applied then also to asylum and the bar is basically about material support of any of these groups, but it's construed to an absurd degree where even if you made a bowl of food for Samaras under duress, or you made payment because your kid was about to
be killed, right, that's considered material support in your barred from asylum.
I wondered if they would do that.
Yeah, so we're seeing that too.
Other than that, I mean, I have been fortunate to win asylum for folks under Trump two point zero. I mean, I don't know how long that'll still last, but judges are still you know, granting cases. So I'm glad to see that.
Yeah.
So that's generally what it's looked like these past four months for Assil's Okay.
Yeah, I think it's really important that we do. There are still possible, like victories to be had within the court system, and asylum is one of the places where, like there's no more getting me on the train. I guess like the people who are on the train now we can and people should if they have the financial means, and we'll talk about how they can do that later.
People should support those people because there's no one else who can go through that system, and like, there are people who have gone through horrific things to get here, and horrific things in the places that they came from. And even if it's not everyone we would like to keep safe, we should do everything we can to keep those people safe.
One hundred percent, you know, just to say I mean and funding somebody's legal fees. I mean, an attorney makes all the difference in navigating these types of issues that I just talked about and other issues and presenting your case. I mean, asylum cases are still incredibly difficult to win, and so representation of counsel is of than key.
Yeah, I think that the rates of success people who don't have counsel are dramatically lower. I haven't looked on Track recently, but you can normally find that on the I think Track is no longer the University of Syracuse, but it did. It did some place where you can find information statistics. Let's talk about one of those cases, if that's okay, And obviously you know we won't intervening anyone's perhaps any more than we have to. But like
I want to talk about Primrose. Primrose is Zimbabwean woman who I met in Bajaji Gito when I was in the Darien Gap reporting on my series. People heard from her in the series.
Even me. I was crying myself. I was like, I want to just put myself in the water. Then again, just or the gain was tough, really really tough, the mountain, the stones, the river. It's not easy at all. It's not a very I don't even recommended someone to say, yeah, you lose that and give no. And even myself, I did know about it. Yeah, I was regretting myself. I was crying. I was like, good, I don't know my family and my family they don't know where I am right now.
But I make it. Yeah, make it You're safe. Yeah, she is now in the asylum process, right, can you explain a little bit about like where she is in the process. And I will eventually do a scripted series on this, but like I guess, can we get an update on her situation and how it's progressing.
Absolutely so.
I came into the case about I want to say, a month or two ago, she had somebody supporting her, a friend living in Texas, and that situation, a living situation, has changed, I believe, which is also not the worst thing she's but she will be moving with a friend to southern California or moving in with a friend rather, But just this situation is very different in Texas and Louisiana and Mississippi and those types of states markedly so.
And her case is a good example of that. And there's a reason that people like Mamu Khalil and many others are sent to detention centers in that area because it's in the Fifth Circuit, first of all, which is widely renowned to be not a favorable circuit court of appeals to immigrants.
Yeah.
But more so than that, even the judges themselves are very different from what we would encounter in California, for example. So my first encounter with the judge was, you know, and this is all virtual. I submitted a motion to appear for her.
She had a master calendar hearing in June.
I submitted amotion to appear for that telephonically, explaining I was representing her at lower no cost, you know, whatever funds could be raised, and could I please appear for as it's a status type conference telephonically. And that motion was met with a really strange response. I don't to this day, I don't really know exactly. It was sort of approved, but then moot because eventually a final court
hearing was set. So that's where we're right now. She has a final court next year and about a year and a couple months. But in ruling on my WebEx motion, I was emailed the order of the judge along with a notice.
That premiers should self deport.
So judges are sending out these notices with routine other orders in cases where the immigrant has council is fighting their case. It's obvious they're fighting their case Jesus. And yeah, so it's one of the things where you just feel very strongly this administration's influence.
Are they obliged to do that or is that a choice that the judge is making.
Not at all, And in fact it's completely inappropriate. So all of us are the immigration bar is taking a different approach to it. You know, some are filing motions to recuse, telling the judges, hey, you need to recuse yourself. You're a non neutral judge. To send this out in the middle of the case is absurd. It's a due process violation. They're entitled to a neutral judge. Yeah, I think my approach would be more one of playing dumb,
because often this has happened. The system, if you will, of ecass the electronics system that we use for court immigration filing systems that Elon Musk briefly had access to or whatever was going on there. But anyways, I digress. You know, will send out automatic notices with the emails
with the judges orders. So my approach, I think will be to give the judges the benefit of the doubt and ask them if this was an electronic notice and if they say no, then I've gotten it on the record, and if they deny the case, I have that in there for the appeal. But yeah, it's happening all over the country with all sorts of different judges, and it's definitely something that we're grappling with right now.
And it's just it's.
Very ballsy for a judge to say, hey, leave the country and oh, by the way, I'm a neutral arbiter.
Yeah, I mean, what's the point of having the judge, you having the whole process right if then they're going to declare this clear bias.
Yeah, it's a third I mean, it's you know, I mean, it's such a violation of due process rights. And I think I know everybody in this country now knows the importance of due process, whereas before only attorneys through that term around. But no, I mean, this stuff really matters, you know.
Yeah.
And then also another thing that happened in Primrose's case is that when you have a work permit clock right, which is another absurd thing for assiles that once they file their asylum application, they have to wait one hundred and fifty days before they can.
Apply for a work permit.
And of course they're expected to be independently wealthy during those five months or you know, or star or I don't know what they're expected to do.
Yeah, rely on the generosity of others, like exactly.
So if you do something like try to change venue or a motion to continue, if you do something in your case that the judge perceives as not moving the case along and rather like kind of trying to stall it or possibly pausing it or slow it down, the judge will stop the work permit clock the days and it's a whole thing. So Primroses was stopped because the
judge wanted her to get an attorney. So usually when the case is set for a final hearing, that code adjournment code they call it, I know for we have.
The access to the codes and what stops the clock and what.
Doesn't, And it always restarts the clock because you moved your case along because you're setting it for trial.
It's it's you know, obviously moving your case along.
Hers was not restarted for whatever reason, yea, And my only remedy would be to write some court administrator who may or may not ever respond.
I can't even go to the judge about this. You know, it's it's absurd.
So that's just the situation that one assilie is one asylum seeker is dealing with in Texas. So you can only imagine what goes on in detentions that you know, detained cases in those states.
Yeah, people who don't have counsel, like getting that self deportation. If you don't have counsel, like you could assume that you are just obliged to leave, like yeah, that your your process is.
Over one hundred percent, And there's no legal basis for the judge to be issuing that. In fact, it's completely unlawful to be issuing something like that at the beginning of the case, at the end of the case, and at the beginning. The judges have to give certain advisals, but telling somebody to self deport is number an advisor that should be given under the law.
Ever, right, Yeah, like it kind of nullifies the whole system.
And plus I should mention real quick that it's disingenuous and harmful and that with these you know, this administration on purpose isn't telling people with one thousand dollars, take a thousand dollars in self deport and you know, will pay for your flight and all this stuff. But they're not telling people is that when you leave, you are then subject to a deportation order and that comes with a ten year bar This is not mentioned, and that's a big deal.
Yes, yeah, I mean it seems even like I think the executive order said permanently leave the United States, right.
Well it did, and then but then they switch tactics a little bit with the app to self deport saying like, you know, leave now, leave now so you have a chance to come back later or something like that, right, but you know without mentioning that, hey you no, you're barred from the United States for ten years and if you ever return unlawfully, then you're a subject to a
whole series of you know. Yeah, I mean, it's just there's all these warnings that need to come with the deportation order that are strategically left out of all the administration's latest messaging on this topic.
Yeah, it's pretty bad. Let's take a break for advertisements here and it will come back all right, we are back, and so we've spoken about these like self deportation orders, right for other people who have entered more recently, right, entered within the last two years. This has been happening we're recording on the twenty second for the last two days now. It seems like ICE is dismissing the cases against them and then detaining them directly in court, if I'm correctly informed.
Yes, So this has been happening periodically throughout the past four months, but in the past few days, like this week, it's been dramatically ramped up, Like right now as we're recording this, ICE is arresting people in the downtown San Diego court and also courts throughout the country. It's been reported everywhere, happening widely this week. And this is another thing the administration said they were going to do and
is doing. I mean, you know, they're doing what they said they were going to do.
Yeah, And it's.
To use what's called two thirty five authority. More broadly so Ina Section two thirty five applies to people who entered within less than two years, like you said, and they can be then subject to what's called expedited removal. That means that they have to take a credible fear interview and be detained, and that they only get to fight a case if they pass their credible fear interview, and then they do not qualify for an immigration judge bond, So they only get out if Ice lets them out,
which of course I is letting nobody out. So the administration wants to have people detained under this authority, this two thirty five authority, as much as possible, to have them have to fight their case detained and either lose the will to do so and or not be able to afford an attorney, because detained cases move along a lot quicker and are very costly as well for that reason.
So what they're doing is anybody who was here two years or less but was parolled in so they're in the regular immigration court proceedings they got out there under two forty proceedings, that's called so DHS attorneys in court are terminating those proceedings. They're asking the judge to terminate the two forty proceedings, so then that case is closed and then they immediately restart a case under section two
thirty five. And at the second they do that, the person is subject to mandatory detention, and ICE is right there in the courthouse to arrest them and detain them.
Jesus, Yeah, I thought ICE couldn't arrest people in California's at California state courts, no federal courts which were in California.
I believe so, and colleagues and I have been talking about this. I haven't researched it thoroughly, but I think also the nature of these proceedings, like the two thirty five proceeding, like you are mandatory detention, like you okay, you were taken into custody. It's as if you just cross the border and you know, are taken into custody. It's treated like like that type of situation, like no warrant is necessary.
I don't believe you know.
Oh okay, right, yeah, so they could they have very broad authority to detain people any way. That makes sense exactly.
So the real issue here is the ethical I mean a lot of us are grappling with this and of course fiercely opposing these motions in that the justification that the DHS attorneys are attempting to use is that circumstances have materially changed since the issuance of their initial case that they're in now, which of course is not the.
Case, right, Like whose circumstances.
Exactly exactly, Like the rise of fascism doesn't constitute a change circumstance. Yeah, So it's just there's no there's no basis for this motion. And secondly, the only basis, like, there's zero justification for this other than filling detention centers, lining cour Civic and Geogroup's pockets. Yeah, and in ten prejudicing an immigrant to have to fight their case attained. I mean right, there's no there's no good or legitimate justification for this period the end, you know.
Yeah, and fighting it detained will be a lot harder. They will be obviously in like terrible situation they are, as we've covered before, often moved to a different state from their council. Will make it a lot harder for them if they choose to go that route. I'm guessing that ICE is hoping that people won't fight and will just or DHS it is hoping that people will just choose not to fight.
That's the whole point is this whole administration's the messaging and their actions are all about forcing people breaking people's spirits and forcing them into a situation where they feel their only option is to self deport. Yeah, it is heartbreaking, it's very sick. Yeah, it's it's very disturbing. It's very very different from Trump one point zero.
Yeah. I think that's worth sort of focusing in on that this is a complete, distinct and much more radical disassembling of the asylum system as we know it.
Absolutely.
I mean, I think we can all agree or disagree as far as how we feel about the past four months and what has happened, but I think everybody can agree that the pace at which it has happened is extremely concerning.
Right, we are four months into four years, and we have seen at constitutional crisis, like a full blown defiance of the courts. We at the day we're recording, the Trump administration is attempting to deport people to South Sudan, many of whom eleven of twelve of whom are not seuth Sudanese.
Right.
I guess from what I understand, their attempt at giving those people a credible fear screening was that they didn't hear them shouting from the cells they were detained in, that they were afraid of being tortured.
Yeah, they're supposed to give them opportunity to be heard essentially and give notice of this country that they're going to be deported to. That nobody and no judge is ever considered whether they have a fear or if they would be in danger deported.
To this country.
Right, So again, this is a due process situation where hey, before you can be sent to some random country, especially South Sudan, maybe you should be given an opportunity to present why you have a fear or that something bad might happen to you over there to a judge. And so this was recently ordered. I believe the case is called DBD versus DHS. Was what stopped the Libya situation from happening, where yeah, judge said, this is exactly what
needs to occur. These people need to be given real notice, not this whatever has been had, you know, and and an opportunity to be heard.
And then yeah, they immediately.
Thereafter attempted to as you said, or I think I don't know if they actually accomplished it with South Sudan.
Yeah, my understanding is they are in a country which is neither the United States nor South Sudan. On an aircraft at this time, and DHS is arguing that they can do their credible fear screenings there on the aircraft. I don't know how they've planned together people privacy, translation,
and access to council. I just looked on Court listener right before we recorded, and Judge Murphy clarified Massachusetts District Court judge that ten days would be the amount of time that they would need to assert a credible fear and then if DHS determined that they didn't have credible fear, they would then have fifteen days to ask the reopening of their case. TBD. Is the United States going to
like somehow accommodate them in where they are. People are speculating they're in Djibouti, which is the largest US military base in the continent of Africa and close to South Sudan, And so if that's the case, Yeah, I don't know how they will get due process. We will find out if they will get due process.
I guess yeah, they probably won't, but will be told that they did, or will be or will be told that they were criminals in the first place, which is the other theme of this administration, right with the Alien Enemies Act, which has basically been put on pause by a number of Satan judges who have said there's no invasion, there's no war.
This is absurd, This just flat out doesn't apply.
And I have to say that the immigration bar is very I think not just the immigration bar, I think all of us are very frustrated that the Supreme Court has not yet come out with a definitive substance of ruling on this because, for the people who don't know, the Alien Enemies Act allows the administration to circumvent the i NA, which is the whole immigration court system, and immediately to port supposed criminals who were invading the country.
I mean, we all know this with the Venezuelans who are accused of being trend Aragua just for having tattoos. And so that is to me and I think all of us the biggest threat to just be able to put somebody on a plane to another country and in a prison in another country, as we've seen the sea cot in El Salvador. I mean, we need our Supreme Court to speak on this, then we need it quickly.
Yeah, like if we no longer have habeas a frontal assault on the Bill of rights like most of them.
And there's so many assaults on the Bill of Rights, and then we need our Supreme Court to really to step up. And I think I'm not the only one who's extremely frustrated by that, because we're in crisis and as we've seen, it's fallen on courts and lawyers and judges to try to defend the semblance of democracy in this country.
But the highest court in the land needs to help out soon. Yeah.
Yeah, and like this is where like the rover meets the road, right for like maintaining people's basic rights, dignity and yeah, the right not to be sent to a labor camp in El Salvador or you know, seuth Sudana country, which is rapidly descending into conflict. Again, I thought the government was barrel bombing this week.
Well, and just real quick, another note on the Supreme Court is that they're they're also concerning I mean, as we know, there's a lot of Trump appointees there and so I mean it's not even that that's the answer. It's just we're you know, but we need answers more
quickly than what they're they're giving us. And it's just when given the rate that this administration is working at I don't know that they will if they ever get the case or the asylum ban at the border would even overturn that because historically they've sort of supported his two twelve F powers. So I'm not saying that's the answer to everything, but it's definitely frustrating to not have basic things yeah already decided, like the use of the alien enemies that.
Yeah, like just not to know where we're at, Like when you know people are trying a good faith to move forward with the legal processes that they have spent their entire life savings on to get here and do the right quote unquote the right way. You're still fighting a number of asylum cases, as we said before the call, like you probably won't be forever, right Like, at some point there's just not going to be any more asylum cases.
I know that you're accepting donations. I think through venmo On behalf of Primrose, that will be sure to link to that woman account in the description of this show, so people can donate if they'd like to. Now it's the time to do it, right, It's not like this
is going to be an ongoing thing. Like if people don't help now, then there won't be migrants to support or assylies to support later, So like, how can people materially support maybe in other ways, right if they're like on hard times and have the financial resources, what else can people do to just to make this a little bit less cruel to some people who are among the most unfortunate people on the planet.
Often, I think even mental and emotional support for the immigrants in your life, I think is something that is underestimated because speaking as a very privileged white woman attorney US citizen, this has taken a tremendous toll on me, and the mental toll that has taken on the actual undocumented community and a SI les this messaging is so harmful and so disgusting that I think I would just caution people to not underestimate the power of human kindness
to those already in your life and just empowering them distributing Know your Rights cards and information that still matters. But also I think the people who are, as we've been discussing, going to be at the most disadvantaged in terms of being able to keep up morale are these
people who are going to be mandatorily detained. So in terms of what we were talking about I believe before we started recording, reaching out to any organizations I know in San Diego there's detention resistance, or even reaching out to the detention center that's near you to be able to determine how you can send a letter, how you can put money on somebody's books so that they can have phone calls with their family or phone calls with you.
Even I think these types of things are are key in light of the administration's clear messaging that immigrants are very much unwanted and criminals. So I think I think that that's where I would come at this from. If you cannot donate again, like we were talking, if you have a few dollars to spare, I mean, if everybody has a few dollars to spare, there is a finite number, like we were saying of asylum cases love ye, like
for roses. So if people can spare a few dollars here or there whenever they can, it doesn't make the difference.
Yeah, no, it does, and it shows that like even if the government doesn't want you to hear, a lot of people want you to be protected. We want you to be safe, Like, yeah, the mental damage it does,
I think it's hard to overstate. Like I was talking, I remember to a young woman Ino and like she was the only surviving member of her pamently the government had killed everyone, and so she came to the US right to be safe, and like, now the government is coming after her in addition to the trauma she already has from watching her entire family die. Like, now the most powerful government in the world is coming after you. I can't imagine how that feels.
That's a very good point.
I mean, yeah, people are coming already traumatized, only to be further traumatized by this administration in the system. And yes, I mean emotional and mental and any kind of support is not to be underestimated in the slightest during these times.
Yeah, like have people over for dinner if you can, or yeah, like call the detention center and put money on someone's commisary. Like just showing people that they're welcome is important. Like I know a lot of the migrants, Like if I look at my phone right now, in the time we've been recording, one of the migrants I met that Darien Gat will probably have texted me. They're in Mexico right, and they just want the world to know about the situation, they know they can't come to
the US anymore. But sometimes people will say, I guess the Americans don't want s anymore, And like that breaks my heart because I think most people, if they knew these people circumstances right to people have reached out to me since the Darien Gap stuff to ask how they can help, and like, most people do want those people to be their neighbors. And it breaks my heart that they think that we don't want them, that we would rather leave them to die wherever they're at. Like it's
genuinely really horrible for me to think of that. So yeah, I would really encourage anyone listening if you can, to do what you.
Can absolutely in just remembering that again, these asylum cases are finite. So if you know any asylum seeker or can support any asylum seeker right now, they made it in Let's give them their best shot.
Yeah yeah, yeah, like we can still help those people, and while we can, we should absolutely Yeah, Well, thank you so much for joining us. We do appreciate it. I know that your time is very valuable and you're really busy right now, so we really appreciate your time. You're always welcome back, and if there's anything else you'd like to say before we finish up.
Yeah, thank you, James.
I think the only thing I just want to emphasize is that, you know, from the standpoint of immigration attorneys like I feel that we're obviously a subject of an executive order, and you know, big law firms are being extorted by the administration to represent causes that the administration believes in and not robono immigration work and so forth
and so on. So it's not like too many of us have been personally attacked, although you know, judges have been arrested, even judges for just hiring an immigrant to do work around the house. So it is a scary time to be practicing immigration law. But unfortunately, I do
see there being a time when it won't happen. I mean, I see the writing on the wall where I will not be able to continue mentally and or economically, because a side effect of all this, and a very intentional side effect, is to make it so that we can't do much for people anymore, and or they can afford us, or there's not people here to do anything for because their spirit was broken or their finances or all of the above and they had to leave. So it is
a very intense time. But I came from different areas of life. I've only been in immigration seven years and it's the first time I've thought of, Okay, where am I going to go to next in these seven years, And it's a very real thing. So, like I said, it feels very different than Trump one point zero.
So no, yeah, this is considerably more severe.
So in other words, take care of yourself if you are an ally, because you know the attack is on immigrants and anybody who advocates, supports and so forth, and it's a very targeted, direct attack and it's very easy to get run down and consumed by it. And so definitely do what you need to do to take care of yourself. And if that means stepping back, then you know, I mean, I want to keep my foot in the door as much as possible these next four years on
something immigration and recite asylum related. But there's also economic and other realities that are happening intentionally, So.
Yeah, definitely, and I think it is important for people to do whatever they need to do to self preserve and take care of themselves as well. I think that's a good place to end, thank you so much for your time, and again, like if you're listening, please check the description of the show and we will have a link to primises go fund Me if you'd like to help.
Thank you so much, James, thank you. It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.
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