What It's Like to Be a Peacekeeper - podcast episode cover

What It's Like to Be a Peacekeeper

Dec 23, 202447 min
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Episode description

James talks to Kevin McDonald, in an interview recorded before the ceasefire, about his experience as a peacekeeper with the Irish Defence Forces within UNIFIL and UNTSO in Lebanon.

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Transcript

Speaker 1

Calls media.

Speaker 2

Hi everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. It's me James and I'm joined today by Kevin McDonald, who previously served as a senior officer in the Irish Defense Forces with Special Forces experience and has significant experience working all over the world after that with the United Nations and other organizations. And Kevin, welcome to the show.

Speaker 3

I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2

Yeah, hopefully I've done a good job introducing you. I'm always terrible at that. What we thought we talked about today, Kevin is you have significant experience in Lebanon with UNIPHIL, and I think obviously when we've spoken about this before, we've spoken about it from a sort of looking at it from above strategic level. But what we've not spoken

about is what it looks like on the ground. So hopefully you can give us some insight into that, especially having been there both as like an enlisted soldier and as an officer. I think can you explain at first? I think there's been a lot of confusion or misinformation about like how did these Irish if we look at the Irish soldiers. That's so when you've obviously the most experience with how do they end up deployed to Lebanon.

Is it a voluntary thing? Do they sort of say, put a hand up a set, I want to do this, or is it your units going so you're going?

Speaker 3

Okay? Well, just I suppose as a brief reminder to your listeners, UNIFIL is the United Nations interim force in Lebanon, and it's been interim since nineteen seventy eight. What it started first, the Irish were one of the first countries to sign up to deploy a battalion there, and we had a battalion in Lebanon from nineteen seventy eight until two thousand and In two thousand, the Israelis withdrew from what they called a security zone about like a ten

kilometer buffer zone in southern Lebanon. So when they did that and retreat to the frontier between the two countries and departs it's battalion. Its left a few staff officers there, but it didn't supply a battalion anymore. It was concentrating on the missions in Syria and other places. And then after the two thousand and six war, they were asked to come back with a battalion and we've been there ever since with an infantry battalion. In relation to your

question about it, is it a volunteer mission. It is for most people. However, there have been people who will be what's known as mandatory selected if they have certain skill sets, whether it be a doctor, whether it be whatever happens to be. If you know, if the army

can't get sufficient volunteers, then they will mandatory select. But generally speaking, certainly in the early years, it was actually quite difficult to get to become a volunteer for Leblon because so many people wanted to go there because there is, you know, there's a bit of a financial incentive to do that as well. I deployed there as a private soldier in nineteen eighty four. I wasn't even twelve months in the army at that stage, and within two months

I was made in acting corporal. So then I went back as an office in nineteen ninety three where we had a seven day war operational accountability. I was back in ninety ninety six as an officer for another seven day war operation Grapes of Wrath, and I ended up there with my family as an unarmed minity observer in two thousand and six for the a full thirty four days of carnage. So, yeah, Lebanon was always well regarded by the Arish Defense Forces because it did the couple

of things. It exposed troops to not just new cultures and new areas, but it exposed them to danger as well. And it also gave a chance for young NCOs and young officers to physically lead their troops in a challenging environment, which you don't always get, you know, when you're at home in Ireland or with the UK or whatever, you

don't always get that type of leadership experience. Plus you're exposed to other cultures, whether it be the Nordic countries or you know, you're exposed to different ways of operating. And it's been it's been a positive experience. But I would find out that since we started there, we've lost far to get troops killed in Lebanon.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's because not an insignificant amount, especially considering like the Irish Defense Forces are much smaller. When if people are more familiar with the US military, right, which is more than a million people, you know, forty eight is a significant amount. You talked about how it exposes you to look at other cultures and obviously one of them

is like the Lebanese people. But it's a very international deployment, right, It's you're not just sort of sitting there on your Irish base with Irish Defense Forces people and not interacting with other militaries. So can you explain like some of the other countries that have this long history there.

Speaker 3

When I went there in nineteen eighty four, there was a battalion from Fiji, Finland, France, Ghana, ourselves, the Netherlands, Norway and Senegal. Wow, what a strength. At the time of about six thousand, when I was there as a non our military observer with UNSOL, which is a different mission, the strength had dropped to two thousand and two thousand and six with just two battalions that can name battalion

and in Indian battalion. And now essentially since after the war in two thousand and six they started building up, there's probably about ten thousand troops there at the moment. There is some huge interaction at the battalion level between different nations. In other words, a battalion will have its own area of responsibility. It's responsible for patrolling in that area.

Now with the likes of Nso you're much more exposed to other armies, other nationalities because essentially, every time you go patrolling, you can't, like two Irish officers couldn't patrol together because if they see an infringement, whether it's a firing close, whether it's one side sending drones into leven and Ano the other side sending contucial rockets into Israel, they're all violations, but to record it as a violation,

you can't have two people from the same country. So you're much more exposed, as I said, to foreign nationalities.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, and there's certainly a lot of nation I know the Indonesians are there now and the contiguent from India when people talk about UNIFIL now a lot. You'll see one of two accusations, right, You'll see that they're either like they're as allies of Hezbollah in Lebanon, which is not the case, or you'll see that they're there as observers for the IDF or spies for the IDF. And like, obviously the fact that they're being accused of both probably suggest that they are neither, because it be

fairly obvious if they were. But can you explain the tripartite agreement. It seems to me like that might make it difficult to do the things that uniform is supposed to be doing. Is that fair?

Speaker 3

I don't know. I think it's I think it's a fair assessment. And if you're if both sides are complaining about you, as you say, it probably does indicate that you're you're at least doing something right.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

So UNIFIL, it's a it's a peacekeeping mission, and so there with the agreement of both parties. So in other words, the Lebanese government and the Israeli government have agreed that UNIFIL be established in Lebanon. That's the first thing to point out. The second thing, which is kind of contentious now, especially with the extent of Hesbodus Tunnels is being exposed, is that there's a lot of generally misinformed chatter about

what UNIFIL can and cannot do. So after the two thousand and six War, Resolution seventeen oh one was enforced or was brought in to develop more thoroughly the mandate for what UNIFIL can and cannot do, and one of the stated paragraphs is that UNIFIL will assist the Lebanese armed forces in taking steps towards the establishment between the Blue Line and the Latanian River of an area free of any armed personnel, assets and weapons other than those

of the Government of Lebanon and of uniful deployed in this area. And this is one of the failings. But it should be pointed out that the responsibility of the Laugh of the Lebanese armed forces to instigate it supported by uniform, not unifil going in looking for arms and weapons supported by the Laugh. It's the other way around. And one of the difficulties that you're always going to

have is that Lebanon has a divided society. Yeah, it's an extremely rich and significant society, and I've lived there quite a lot and have great respect for the people and their traditions. However, the sectarianism is kind of baked into how the government works, and that kind of works as way down. So the president has to be a Marianite, Christian speak of the House has to be Shia, and

the Prime Minister has to be sunny. Yeah, And that division was based on the last time there was a census in Lebanon, which was nineteen thirty two, and since then the dynamics have changed, so Hezbela is not just a minitary organization. It's a political organization, and it's a wealthier organization.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think a lot of people don't get that.

Speaker 3

And it's Shia and the majority of the people in the south are Shia. And you know a lot of them get their schooling and their medication from Hesbulla. So it's not just a military organization. And there's various estimates, but you could be looking at them. But we say, prior to the present conflict, maybe seventy thousand Hesbla in south of their root, shall we say. And some of them are full time, some of them are part time, some of them are just sympathizers, helpers, friends. You know,

it's difficult. And another factor that has proven extremely difficult is so when unifim patrol with the laugh, there is certain restrictions that even the laugh have in terms of entering certain areas. And what has Bullah have done is that they have designated certain nature reserves and generally speaking, the laugh won't go in there. And if the laugh won't go win, the uniful can't goin right, So the laugh for kind of you know that they have a

balancing act to do. In terms of retaining the trust of the people in the south and also not causing a sectarian divide within their own ranks.

Speaker 2

Yeah, of course.

Speaker 3

And also they have another problem in terms of equipment. They're sort of relying on other countries, the UK, the US, France to supply them with equipment. But like they have no tanks. They have a few helicopters. They're very much like there's no way they will take on has bullet no.

Speaker 2

Way, right, yeah, or the IDEF.

Speaker 3

And UNIFOR itself is likely armed, you know, it's not gone round in tanks or anything armored carriage. Yes. The only time, the last time UNIFAL had tanks in Lebanon was just after the war when the French deployed with the Lea clerk tanks, right, which did not please the locals because the clerk tanks driving up and down the roads was nearly doing as much damage as the Markava tanks during the war. And plus Lebanon isn't a very tank friendly area to be operating against.

Speaker 2

What we said, right, yeah, was that when the IDF came in and then Macava tanks and the French like physically blocked them with their own tanks. I can't remember when that was, and I'm.

Speaker 3

Not aware of that, but it could will happen because I know certainly back in the.

Speaker 2

Nineties that may have been. When it was when Israel was.

Speaker 3

Operating the security Zone. We the Irish and our colleagues from Finland and Norway had had numerous standoffs with Israelis trying to enter certain villages.

Speaker 2

And yeah, but.

Speaker 3

Yeah, I saw the day before yesterday the two I think two bulldozers in the Marcava or I said, yeah, two d nines broke down a U and watchtower and a UN fence at the un UNIFIL headquarters in the Cura, which is a few k from the frontier with Israel. Yes, I should I note as well for your listeners that Israel and Lebanon have been at a state of war since nineteen forty eight. Yes, they've never had a seat or a peace agreement, and.

Speaker 2

The Triparte Agreement is the only place where they actually meet, right.

Speaker 3

Yeah, so there is a UNIFIL post a meeting normally right at the frontier where you can cross between one country and the other. And I keep using the word frontier because it's not a border. It hasn't been officially demarketd.

The blue line, which I mentioned earlier on simply verifies that the IDF have withdrawn into Israel, but it's not the border right however, going back to your point about the Tripartheid Agreement, and that's where the senior Israeli officials senior Lebanese officials, under the chairmanship of UNIFIL meat and they discuss items of concern that maybe UNIFIL can help or now between the two of them, and in twenty twenty two they managed to organize a maritime boundary between

Lebanon and Israel, which was kind of fascinating because on the western side of Lebanon and the northwesterns coast of Israel the huge gas fields. So the two countries actually they've agreed their maritime boundary under the auspices of UNIFIL. They still haven't agreed their land. But it's the first time that a peace keep mission has arranged and courage developed and led successfully discussions about a maritime boundary. So the uniform does have some successes.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, no, I think it would be wrong to over looks. We'll take a quick break for adverts and we'll come back. We're back, And Kevin, you'd mentioned that you were in Lebanon in two thousand and six. I think you said you're an unarms observer at that time, Is that right.

Speaker 3

Yeah, that's right. Yet, so one of the oldest missions in the world is one, so the United Nations Truth Supervisory Organization, and that essentially was established, I suppose after the forty eight War, and it had well say, offices and observers in Egypt, Israel, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon. You know that they were quite effective in certain ways, Like certainly the eventual peace agreement between Egypt and Israel was very much helped along by the presence of ONSO in

Cairo and Shamra Shaik. The dieasagreement between Jordan and Israel again was very much assisted by ONSO. So they have a kind of a fairly good track record. And what they bring to the table is that first of all, they're unarmed military observers, which takes some of the sting

out of heaven. You know, a heavily armed guy with a hell and there's and sunglasses walk around, you know that, and some armies, as you know, can tend to be more intimidating than others in how they how they carry themselves. So I went there. I went to the region in two thousand and five and I was working on the occupied Golden Heights, living in the in Tiberias on the Sea of Galilee with my wife and two kids who

then were four and five. And in February zero six I was transferred to Lebanon and we were living in the city of Tier. The kids were going to a local English speaking Arab school and Lebanon was absolutely thriving. It must happened. We had the kids in bear Rouge, we had them and a man done in what they

run and my normal routine. We had four observation posts along the frontier with with Israel, yeah staft by five guys who spent a week seven days up there and then you come down for four or five and then go back up again. And each team had its specific area to operate with, and we say a specific battalion that we would interact with. And also quite importantly, we had liaison assistants who were locals like translators, but but

they're a lot more important than that. And based on the sectarian nature of the area, you know, you'd always have a Christian you'd always have a share, but you could have the Drews. If you were further up to the north, you could have suddenly. And each team had four or five of these because we used to send two patrols out each day. So we had huge interaction with the locals and ARMERI, with the mayors and the muktar, and we were very much a force multiplier for UNIFIL

because we could get information from people. You know, we used to stop and have lunch in some of the little restaurants and we were always talking to people, and you know, it was the window down, waving out, having a chat, learning a bit of Arabic, whereas Uniful by its nature goes around in armor cars, right, and even if you stop, when you get out and you take off the sunglasses, people will just react differently. The two guys with a local that they know in the car.

Speaker 2

Yeah, as about someone in full battle rattle again.

Speaker 3

Now, we definitely were. But the war kicked off on the twelfth of July two thousand and six and I was I had done on patrol to pick up or Christian liaison assistant in her village and literally we were heading off on patrol and over the radio all stations go to the nearest U went position immediately. The nearest U went position tours at the time was an inn

the platoon position on top of a hill. From my past experience, I had reckoned that there was a bit of stuff going on either in shade the farms, which is a disputed area in the southeastern part of Lebanon, up in the mountains. So I said to the guy that was with me, I said, look, this could be over a couple of hours. Let's go straight back to our patrol base. And you know, we knew we had a fool the facility, and we also knew we had a good bunker in the place, so we had it

back at a fair agnuts, shall we say. And normally, when we would have two patrols out, there'd be one guy left in the patrol base and he'd be responsible for radio checks and all that kind of stuff. But what we'd do is, when we were about maybe a kilometer away, we would inform our headquarters in in the Kura that were closing down at our final destination, which would give this guy time to come out and unlock the gate to let us in. And just as I had transmitted that up on the ear and said don't

come in, don't come in, we're getting hit up. So we're at that stage we will restigate, and about maybe two kilometers away there was a huge idea of position and they were just banging with pine fives and gpmg's not directly at us, but kind of in the general area.

Speaker 2

Yeah, explain those weapons systems for people who aren't familiar, like what's a GPMG If as somebody is not.

Speaker 3

Okay, sorry, So you've everyone's familiar with with, say in AK forty seven or and then sixteen, which would be known as small arms. In other words, that caliber is five point five six or seven point six two. Then you have medium machine guns which are generally belt fed, and there are seven point six two yeah. And then you have heavy machine guns, again belt fed, and they're twelve point seven or fifty caliber. Yeah. So we were

getting a fair bit. But it took us maybe an hour of listening to various news channels, both in Lebanon and in Israel to realize that as we had carried cross border attack hit up an idea of convoy kidnapped two who were seriously injured and subsequently died and killed initially four and then against their own orders and Israeli mccalva went into Lebanon to have a kind of commanding view over where they thought that Hespital were bringing these guys.

Hesbala knew that that's what they do, and big anti tank mind and killed four guys inside the Murcava. So Israel had last eight and two kidnapped in the space of maybe maybe an hour. So the reaction was was it was fast and furious, and yeah, it took us nearly six days to get our Lee as an assistant

back back to her village. It took the un nearly two and a half weeks two of actually with the families, because at that stage once it was a family mission, and where I was, I could see the jets dropping bombs in to Tier, and my wife could look up on the skyline knowing where I was and see the same thing happening. I was sort of used to being under fire, but it's a different thing to see your

family under fire as well. And eventually when the charter the sort of a cruise liner from Cyprus to come over and stand offshore and send in its lifeboats to bring the families out. So when this has been planned and so had try to organize that an armored convoy would bring those onmos that were deployed on the four posts down to tier to say goodbye. But where I was, we were getting hammered with artillery fire and tank fire. So I was the only one with family that couldn't

get out. So when my wife and two kids that were five and seven, that's fit, were getting into the lifeboat to bring them out to the ship, I rang her and I said, look, I'll see you want to see which is not a great way to end the family mission, let me tell you now. And then in the space of the next three days, we had a strength of fifty two officers and in about three days we last over ten percent. We had one Italian captain

shot in the back. He's known a wheel chair. We had another Australian captain seriously injured when the converse she was in was I suppose target is probably the way to explain it. But she she was thrown up against the inside of the armored car and essentially her back was broken. She was evacuated with my wife and kids, and then I think it was the day later or two days later, the Israeli dropped the Jadam, which is a bunker busted missile into the post, just up for me,

killing for very good friends of mine. So yeah, two thousand and six was a bit rough.

Speaker 2

Yeah, if you're comfortable, could we talk about that last one a little bit, because I think it's one of the ones that, like, there's no mistaking that un position, right, it's you don't and you don't accidentally disco dropping Jadam's left right in center all over the place.

Speaker 3

Like. The first thing I should say is that twenty one years previously that observation post was completely destroyed, but

there was no one in it at the time. So when it was rebuilt, it had the best bunker in Lebanon, so that they dug down first and had like a lot of the the bunkers currently in Lebanar are overgrown the bunkers, but this this was dug down into the into the rock essentially, and it had its roof was about a meter and a half of reinforced steel and concrete with the two story concrete building on top of it. So without doubt it was the best bunker in Lebanon.

So that on that this this happened on the twenty fifth of July, and on that particular day we'd already lost the patrol base in Marouna rass when when Roberto was shot and they had I have to say, in fairness, but there's the liaison branch that kind of liaises between IDF and UNIFIL. Okay, and UNIFIL couldn't launch one of the telecopter to do a medevac. So the decision was made that the guys would get into an armored land cruiser and follow Israeli tank tracks back into Israel.

Speaker 2

Where they couldn't deconflict the air space to launch it or what was stopping them launching their helicopter to evacuate.

Speaker 3

There was too much connectic activity at that it wouldn't have been able to land.

Speaker 2

It was.

Speaker 3

It was a battle long ago, okay. Yeah, So they essentially followed Israeli tank tracks that had come into Leblon. They followed those tank tracks back into Israel where they were met by an Israeli patrol and Roberto was flown through Rambam hospital. But yeah, going back to going back to kem on the twenty fifth of July, as we were all taking a fair bit of incoming where I was. It wasn't targeting, it was more sort of harassment fire.

Speaker 2

Yeah, like that.

Speaker 3

The house next door took three direct tank rounds and it was five meters away Jesus from post, and our post was tiny. Yeah, but in the guys in Kiam were taking a coupit of archarity. But there was a lot of air strikes coming in close. And again for your listeners, the UN has a designation what it calls a firing close. So we'll say a firing close from a sixteen is I don't know, something like fifty meters

or something like that. Firing close from an artillery shell is five hundred meters, and a firing close from an aerial bomb is a kilometer. So if it lands within a kilometer, it's officially designated as a firing close, and it's recorded, and you know, both sides get you know, it's it's an official account of of what's happening. So the guys who are getting you know, a good few firings close from area bombs and there was three distinct

waves of attack in the general area. So naturally Force Commander uniful chief of staff on so you win a quarters in New York were screaming at the Israelis, you know, stopped targeting disposition. What was it hes bull in the area? Of course there was keam is a hesbil a stronghold. But eventually that that evening the decision was made that the patrol buss is going to be evacuated. But because of the level of kinetic activity that evening, it was

going to be done at first light next morning. And since the war started, we had all been on the twenty four to seven twenty minute radio so every twenty minutes you had to respond to a radio check. So the last transmission from the post was from a Canadian friend of mine X Special Forces. Really really cool and I could hear it in his voice. He was requested a luck in time for a firing close. It's danger close, it's danger close, get them to stop. And that was

the last transmission. So when they miss the next radio check, we presumed another shell had come in and blown all the aerials of the of the building. So myself and a NAUSI feund the Mind requested permission to take our armored land cruiser and try and drive up and see what was happening. That was refused by UNIFIL, so they sent a patrol from the Indian battalion, which was kind of in fairness that it was nearer. So we switched on to their radio frequency to hear what they were saying,

and so they approached the base. They had obviously had to break down the gate and said the base had taken a direct hit by an aerial bond. And at that stage we were still thinking maybe they're trapped under the rubble or something like that. And then the one of them transmitters, we have found the body of a Chinese officer, so we knew the four guys were were were killed. And the Indians found three bodies that night and brought them to the marchary in marja Un, which

is a large Christian town. So the next morning there was I think five of us tasked to open identify the bodies.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

So the first guy was Chinese, was over pressure, killed time, so that that was an easy one to identify. The next guy had no arms, no legs, and wead Jesus and where his head should have been was the chain of a dog tag and I went down into his body.

Paris Yeah, and the other guy yeah, so yeah, it was a difficult, difficult procedure, and then we had to try and arrange to get the bodies transferred into Israel to where you and colleagues from Jerusalem so they could go to Rambam Hospital and have have you know, a proper identification and all that sort of stuff.

Speaker 2

Yeah, eventually be returned to their families, I suppose.

Speaker 3

And that was a difficult procedure because where the Ideas said they could meet us, there was a minefield in front of us, and where we said we could meet them, they thought it was too exposed. So eventually we went into an old, small, tiny Indian platoon position and about one hundred meters away there was a gate that the Israelis used to you who's to come in a note when the security's own was there. But the area between the un position and the gate hadn't been mind swept

in six years. But we had no choice. We couldn't bring the guys back to the march because I had resorted to using refrigerated trucks to store bodies because the marcher was full. Yeah, So there was there was an IDEF company there under a I think it was a full brigadier and there's a war going on, naturally, Yeah, all the time, gunships and katouch's passing each other over

our heads. So when we had the three lads transfer over to our colleagues fro Jerusalem, I stood in front of the Ideas Brigadier and I lined up all the UN troops and he says, we're not going to have a minute silence and memory of our friends who were murdered on the cause of peace, and no, having a having a minute silence in the middle of a battle

is a odd experience. In fairness to this guy, he still to attention, And because I lived in Tiberias, I had a small bit of Hebrew and I went over afterwards and thanked them for hisp And we didn't find the fourth body on the left of the seas for Jesus. Yeah, yeah, that's rough.

Speaker 2

Sorry, that's terrible to think about.

Speaker 3

So the obvious question is I know what the one you want to ask? Why? Yeah, And I should have said it at the start. Anything I say here, it's it's my personal opinion. So it can't be construed as being the views of the Irish Defense Forces. Yes, of course, are certainly not the views of the United Nations. They are my personal views. So you know, people should just take it that it's it's Kevin McDonald describing what happened to him and what his personal views on it are.

So why did they do it? Well, I think there's a couple of things. Hubris is one. I think at that stage there they were like a schoolyard bully who got better and wanted to lash out of anything and everything. A second, probably more tactical reason is that the village of kim Is on a ridge, would say, at the end of the redge ridged closest to Israel, because it's only about four miles away, is where this op was.

And that's the reason was there and between kem and we say, the frontier with Israel is the Hula Valley, which is the biggest maneuver space. If you want a maneuver armor and stuff into Lebanon with plenty of space, that's where you do it. In fact, decide it is an old Vichy French airfield from the Second World War, so it's low space, and I think they didn't want eyes on the ground seeing what they were doing. And like one of the things for military observers is you

observe in your reports. That's your task. So was there hez Bulla in the area around the around the OPI yes there was. But as you probably know, if you want to attack troops in the open, you use airburst artillery shells, which the Israelis they did in nineteen ninety six when they fired fifteen of them into a UN battalion head quarters, killing one hundred and six leban These men, women and children. See cancelter shelter in the UN headquarters.

But you don't fire a bunk or bust and missile into a UN post to attack Hesbula.

Speaker 2

The subtle difference, Yeah, there's a different Yeah. I suppose what people will ask is like, it's I think it's important to explain this from the point of view of someone on the ground. It's obviously UN troops are not there to fight. They're there to keep peace, but they are an armed presence, and so they'll wonder how or why the UN can or can't defend itself the uniform

troops specifically in these positions. So, like, can you explain how your rules of engagement and how that works for from the sort of on the ground perspective.

Speaker 3

Okay, Well, the rules of engagement we said for a peacekeeper mission, like we pack on one side because they're unarmed, but for a peacekeeper mission. Yeah, So peacekeeping is generally based on three principles consent, impartiality, and the use of force in self defense of the mandate. So naturally, like the guys there at the moment aren't going to try and take on through or former KALFA tanks. First of all, they don't have the capability to it.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's an interesting Do they not have the guinances? That's fine? Do they have, for instance, javelin and things like that. Do they have those weapons systems available?

Speaker 3

I'm not sure what they have currently. Certainly we didn't have, Okay, and it wasn't ever going to be an issue because that's kind of not our job like that. The sole responsibility to protect the people of Leblon is the Lebanese government. Uniful is there to assist. It's not there to say, okay, you step back, you know, we stemmed up and protect you.

That's not what Uniful or any peacekeeping mission. The only peacekeeping mission that eventually had an offensive capability built into its mandate was the mission that's now closing down in the DRC. The Democratic Republic of Congo and it's Monusco, and they specifically changed the mandate to include an offensive capability to go after the twenty three rebels in the Kivus in sort of the northeast. And when they did it, like you know, attack helicopters should forces a lot. Yeah,

it was quite effective. But which kind of brings me to another point because I just last year a completed a Masters in Peace and Conflict Studies and mandates was the evolution of mandates is what I sort of looked at and haven't wrote bus mandates is all well and good, but the TCCs, the true contrip in countries, have to have the ability, the capability of the training and the will to carry out the robust nature of the mandate. So you know, we we were saying in Ireland paper

never refuses ink. You can put whatever you want into a mandate, but you have to be able to effectively implement the mandate. Yeah, and I think often that's that's the reason that that maybe people are kind of broad in how mandates are written, But that's that's that's for someone way further up the food food chain than me.

Speaker 2

Yeah, So for those like the people on the ground then, and now that's not a great deal. They can do, right, They can attempt to ask the IDEAF to stop, which they did, which has historically not work. And they can take shelter in their bunkers, which they did, which it's only helpful if they're not going to use bunker busting missiles to destroy that bunker. So, like, it must be terrible.

Like it's one thing to be engaged in combat with someone, and especially if you're a soldier, bro it's another thing. And I found myself in this situation last year to be effectively like I'm able to respond. I'm thinking here of the Turkish drone bombing and fighter jets and bombers in Syria where I was. But it's a horrible thing to be in that situation, And is it for those peacekeepers? It must be a really difficult sort of place to be.

Speaker 3

Well, it is, yeah, And of course you know, they're all conscious of the fact that their families back in Ireland are fully aware of what's going on. And Yeah, shortly after the invasion, the IDF decided that they had told unif they wanted them out. Essentially, and not just the Irish, but both other nationalities that were not going,

you know. So the ide if everywhere they go in Lebanon, the first vehicle is a dena in Buldozer, because that is more robust than Amercava, and it can also very quickly throw up earth and ramparts to sort of you know, protect from direct fire. Yeah, the idea of troops. So they decided that they would literally conjoin an IDF position to the Irish position, hoping that they could intimidate the Irish into leaving. And the position's name was six Ash

five two, very close to the frontier. Ironically, when the Israelis withdrew in two thousand, they recognized that this particular area was what we in the millers would call key terrain because that area overlooked a vulnerable part of northern Israel, villages like Avavem and a few others. So the ideas requested Uniful to put a position there which would would say stop has bullet them put in the position there, and then suddenly they're up close and personal trying to

intimidate the Irish and other nationalities as well. Yeah, So it's one of the things, and I think one of the reasons that they didn't want unifilled, and there's about twenty small of these small positions, mainly close to the frontier. I think one of the reasons that they and again this is a personal point of view, I think one of the reasons that they didn't want UNIFIL in any of these positions was eight to turn it into a

free fire zone would be. One of the things that UNIFIL is supposed to do is to monitor and report, monitor and observe, and of course if you're not there, you can't do it. That's actually one of the things that the UNIFIL, even though they're hunt could in their bases would with very little mobility, they can still monitor

and observe what's happening in the general area. Now, would say, in the case of this position six five to two, if the IDs ultimately gain, our goal was to take a major has been a stronghold which is called binchebail that's a good further north than disposition, so that the focus of attention would move on from with they our guys and go a wee bit further north.

Speaker 2

Yeah, so that's sort of where they find themselves now, right, is these can you explain like you've got these positions along the frontier, and then you've got the headquarters that you just mentioned two days ago have been infringed by a bulldozer attacked depends how you want to say it.

Speaker 3

Well, it makes a change from having a tanker on fired into an op which they did yeh a few days previously.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and they've done consistently right for for a month or so. Now is firing directly into these observing positions? Are these positions that are now are they left isolated as the idea full advance passed and around them And in addition to firing directly at them.

Speaker 3

There's somewhat isolated. Now all these positions would be well stoped with water and emergency rations and stuff like that.

And as I mentioned before, UNIFIL do have a liaison branch which I'm sure are talking to the Idea if on an hourly basis and they will coordinate the movements of UNIFIL with it supply their positions or I think last week they had a convoy went into the city of Tier, which is probably twelve krom from the head quarters to distribute aid, especially medical aid, because Tier is

getting fairly whacked. Like all of the self I suppose so there is engagement to make sure that these posts aren't like completely isolated, that there is a means of doing resupply.

Speaker 2

Yeah, Israel stopped one of those at some point, isn't it like was it a resupply movement?

Speaker 3

The stop things that are on a regular basis. As I said, there is interaction, like nothing happens in a vacuum.

Like we'll said, yeah, the Irish Italian headquarters would not send a convoy to sixtass five two without it being communicated to the Israelis and saying we're going to go on three vehicles that or seven hundred hours blah blah blah, and and get the confirmation back that yeah, that's okay, because you know, they mentioned the foul the war and that that's not from the fairly real as you can

imagine yourself. It's a fairly real thing that happens, you know sometimes you know, yeah, instructions don't get passed down or sometimes instructions are ignored for whatever reason. So it's a bit of a delicate, delicate balancing act. But from what I understand, it's working well.

Speaker 2

That's good. Yeah, yeah, And I think it's working well in terms of like, what's happening in Lebanon is bad, and it'd be better if it wasn't. But it's not at the same tier as it has been in Gaza.

Speaker 3

No, you're looking at will be three and a half thousand compared to forty three and a half thousand killed.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and so many of those being civilians, right, people who absolutely no business targeting, and like that genocidal violence that we've seen in Gaza hasn't come to Lebanon, and in part I think we can attribute that to their being observed. Is there is that fair to say?

Speaker 3

I think it's a fair point. Of course, there's there's no real the un footprint in Gaza. My understanding is it's extremely extremely light. Yeah, and as you know that would say banished genre, yeah, whereas I mean uniform the ten thousand troops in southern Lebanon, So there's very much more. Maybe there's a more consciousness, but there's still Latin in the place, but it's in terms of civilian casualties. As we said, it's not going on as long as Gaza either.

But on the we'll say the combat front, but not exactly having things the wrong way either. They've been trying to take the village of Kim for the last I think two weeks, and my understanding is that haven't have destroyed it, right, but they haven't taken it. And it was like in two thousand and six they claimed that the town of ben Schebail was the Hesivila capital of the South, which and I supp wasn't the way it was, but the turns of ent draws me. But they never

controlled it. They were still getting attacked, you know, days after they had seized it. Right.

Speaker 2

Yeah, they've never really established like control or like a monopoly and non violence in the area. And yeah, they've not done that this time. And I think I suppose the last thing I wanted to ask about is like we've just talked about like why this mission is important, and we've spoken about four like you had your family there when they were being bombed, and like this investment in being there in Lebanon, being alongside the Lebanese people in your case with your own family, like it's it's

one that island has had for a long time. Ireland has historically, amongst European nations, been much better on the rights of Palestine and Palestinian people, and then most European nations. How is this peacekeeping mission perceived in Ireland? Like a people proud that they're there?

Speaker 3

Oh yeah, oh, hugely proud. And and you know, the Irish have always been extremely proud of what our defense forces have achieved, despite us being a very small defense forces. Like I think at the moment, between the Navy, the Army and the Air Corps, we're probably looking at in total in total, well yeah, very small and then we're overseas in a lot of places as well, so like to dup that from the nine thousand, you're probably down to eight. Yeah, but we do tend to punsch up

over with internationally. We obviously had no colonial baggage, which affects some other countries. Yes, and I think generally speaking we're seeing as I'm not sure if annest Barker is the right word, but certainly not as threatening and not coming with an agenda, right yeah, whereas other other countries might have a certain agenda for whatever political reasons at home.

And it's certainly in Ireland s Caes As I said, we were there from seventy eight two thousand and now from two thousand and six to present day, and a lot of it has been in the same general area, so people would know Irish soldiers some Lebanese talk with an Irish accent.

Speaker 2

I've heard that. Yeah, there it's mad.

Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah, it's true. And depending on what part of Ireland the troops were from, you could even go further down, like some of them talk with a very broad Dublin accent, some of them would talk with a very broad Cork

accent because of that interaction. And I know one of the first big projects the Irish did, certainly from the early eighties, was to build an orphanage in a provincial capital called Sipneyme and they've been doing that even when we know troops there, guys were still sending money and toys and everything. That's been demolished last week.

Speaker 2

For Arty Jesus an orphan It's like story book evil stuff, isn't it.

Speaker 3

Like yeah, well, you know, it's just there's a lot of evil stuff going on in the Middle East at the moment unfortunately.

Speaker 2

Yeah yeah, yeah. I mean I've personally seen hospitals bombed and all that kind of stuff myself, and it sometimes doesn't even make the news. I mean, that orphanage evidently didn't really make my news diet. Kevin, thank you very much for sharing some of your experiences over there, and I'd love to have you on again to talk about the things you've the work you've done in Africa and the line after after eleven and you've written a book

right about your experiences peacekeeping and other things. Where could people find that?

Speaker 3

Okay? So this initially started off as a lockdown project during the COVID lockdown in the Central African Republican And initially it was just from my wife and family. But as it starts writing, you kind of started remembering and it's not just your typical military guy tell us about how Bravey was. I have a separate career in mountaineering and a separate career in archaeology as well, So it's a kind of a much more different mishmash of of

of stuff going on. So that the book is called a Lifeless Ordinary and it can be purchased online at Male Books Dot, I m A Y or or chats.

Speaker 2

Yeah. I like that balance. I've always thought that, like, I'll go somewhere and I'll write about the worst things I saw there and the worst days I had there,

and that'll be my story. But I've always wanted to write about the mountains of Kurdistan are beautiful and I really loved being there, And there are other places that people think of them as wars, not countries, and I think it would be I'd love to write about mountaineering, backpacking in these places where often it's really sad that you don't get to share that part.

Speaker 3

I'll write about this in the book. I mean like, I've lived a few times in Lebanon, and I've lived and worked in Jerusalem a few times, and it's a fascinating region. Oh yeah, and the people in both countries some I have some really good friends in Israel and have some really good friends of Lebanon, and I've been

treated extremely well by people in both countries. Certainly, if you've an interest in archaeology, it's to be else could put shit not one to be you know, like the Phoenicians in Tier and no matter where you go in Tire you can pick up Roman posturally or you can see all these amazing sites, whether it's from the Phoenicians, from the Romans, from the Trusaders. It's just it's all there in front of you.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, creative civilization there. Well, thank you so much for sharing your experiences, Kevin, thanks so much.

Speaker 3

Okay, cheers.

Speaker 1

It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for it could Happen Here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.

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