And everyone. It's me James today and I'm talking to Dermot Cosgrove about Wagner Wagner, the the Russian Mercenary Group and their actions in Africa. This is something that I've kind of tried to pitch for several years with not much success in the United States media, and I'm sure lots of other people have two by no means unique in that. And suddenly, obviously everyone in the corporate media has become something of an expert in their actions when
things started happening in Ukraine. And so what we wanted to do here was kind of paint a picture of how they have a long record of human rights abuse, and Dermot to more expert in Africa, so that's what we're talking about, but also in Syria, of course, and I just wanted to give some more information. So we recorded this on last Friday. Today it's Tuesday, the first of August, and we talked a little bit about the
Coup Nigier, which has continued and since we recorded. Ive Geenny Pregaorsian, who of course is the head of Wagner, the founder of Wagner, that oligarch is in charge of that private military contracting group made a statements sort of not exactly saying like oh, yeah, we did this coup, but more like saying, oh cool, I see you've had a coup. What you could use is a group of mercenary Russians who are prepared to do incredible and horrific
violence on your behalf and let us know. We'll roll up. Also, since then, Ekowas, which is the Economic Community of West African State, it's a West African block there has threatened intervention in Nize if they don't sort of return to a democratic process. And then Mali andned Bookina Faso to other countries that are run by military government's military more or less hunters have threatened have said they'll stand with Nize, stand with the Nize coup. So it threatens to destabilize
again the whole region. Right, You'll see lots of misinformation about this on Twitter. I've seen a ton of stuff from like just tanky accounts who don't fully have a grasp on what's happening in this part of the world.
And I think it's quite dismissive to just use Africa to further your whatever your political agenda is, rather than treating this as a tragedy that will impact people living in these countries right es between nich Share, where people are already often struggling to get by, really struggling to make endst meat like sanctions on this country will hurt them. Tanctions on this country will hurt the poorest people in
this country. A military dictatorship rarely delivers a better quality of life for people, and I would like to see people focusing on that and not on some stupid argument about decononization, like it's That's not what's happening here. What's happening is the powerful people have wanted more power, and they've taken that at the expense of the quality of
life and often the lives of other people. Obviously, with Mali and Bikina Faso saying that they would like support ni Share, those are both governments that struggle to support themselves and defend their own people and capitals from Islamist insurgencies, and like our movement, so you know, no, hugely I guess serious threat, but still very destabilizing and again like this will have negative impacts for everyone living there, which
is the thing I'd like to focus on. So we're going to start here with introducing himself and then we'll go from there.
My name is Jermatt Cosgrove. I'm a French from Legion veteran. I was six years French Foreign Legion and since nineteen ninety six I've worked across Africa and the Middle East and a little bit of South Asia as a security consultant and field security advisor, mainly with oil and gas companies, infrastructure companies, but also some work with the media.
Nice.
Yeah, so I've been a journalist covering that field for not quite as long. But one of the things that I remember seeing in a pre pandemic is this rise of this Russian mercenary group, bargainer group in Africa. It was just not an area of interest in any US publication. Generally, stories in Africa are very hard to sell. But I know that you were obviously on the ground looking at this, So can you maybe just start with when you sort of first became aware of them and what you were seeing.
Well, I first became aware of them with their activities in the Central African Republic when the when the Mayhem broke up there a few years ago and the EU started sending in troops. There's quite a lot of heavy fighting. Then it stabilized a little bit, but there was still
quite a lot of fighting going on. Next thing, these Russians shot up and it was just a little bit kind of Yeah, I'd heard about them in operating in Syria, but you know, next thing, they're in, of all places, the Central African Republic, which is a it's high is you know, a little bit of a backwater in the middle of Africa. It's it's quashed in between Chad, Rwanda, Burundi, the Congo, places like that, and it's historically it's it's been.
There's always been a French French presence.
There, but it's always been a place where there's been quite a bit of conflict around it.
Yeah. Yeah, not like a consolidated like nation state really yeah, yeah, a lot of a lot of different people. It's not an identity that like fits with with identities on the ground and necessarily so, yeah, what was their role there? What were they they doing as like a mercenary or private military contracting group.
Well, they they were really operating a bit in the shadows. They were they had come in. Apparently they were supposedly there to train the governments, the Republican Guard of the of the presidential Guard. But they were also there was also words starting to leak out where they were involved in the Diamid mines and they you know, they were they were moving all over the country.
They were heavily involved in militias.
Then words started coming out about, you know, there was murders on checkpoints that were joint checkpoints between government militias and Wagner Group operatives. And next thing, this story broke where three journalists, three Russian journalists disappeared. They'd been following the activities of Wagner in Central Africa, and I think the last thing that we've seen of them was that
they were stopped at a checkpoint and then gone. There was just they disappeared in the bush, and that was I suppose that was kind of the first peak that these are a nasty bunch of operators. And there had been a company in Russia years ago who were the Alpha Group, and they had basically they were basically Afghan veterans. Well they operated kind of in the shady oli art section of royal security in Russia itself. But Biber Group
were a completely different animal. You could tell from the right from the start these were they had a different model.
Yeah, very much so, and like a different model to even like there are various I guess, like national perspectives to private military contracting. Like there was a time when you, like you could sit down in a hotel, bar and lots of places in Africa and be assured that someone with a South African accent or someone who would claim to be from Rhodesia would like come and talk to you and that was their industry, and they would say
some racist shit. It's hard for me to not like hear a South African accent and be like, oh, fucking I don't want to have anything to do with this. But obviously that doesn't define everyone from South Africa by
any means. But yeah, like there was that there was there were a lot of Colombian people in that industry as sort of the civil warring Columbia became that these guys are kind of different, right, Like they seem to be operating more like on behalf of governments or people who would be in government, who would like to be in government. Yeah, yeah, explain how they do shit just differently.
Well, they seem to have taken the well you'll be familiar with executive outcomes the South African Mercenary Organization and Executive Welcomes business model was when they operated, they went to the client and said, right, okay, we'll sort out your problem, but we want a percentage. It wasn't a paycheck or a contract kind of a grade dollar sum
for a contract. It was they wanted a percentage so they would clear Like Executive Wecomes cleared out some of the diamond fields in and Gola, and I think they're going rate with something like fifteen sent. Wagner groups seem to have done that, taken that model, but at the same time they've rolled in a little bit of the the Blackwater type idea in in Iraq where they were operating us an arm of of you know, Blackwater, operating
as an arm US government. They were Paul Bremner's personal guard and Or Wagner seemed to have combined the two along with making Hollywood movies, because they've made they've made a couple of movies, one about Central Africa and there, you know, these rambo esque kind of movies and it's it's just it's like, what the hell is going on here?
It's very strange. It's like, I think we maybe can't divorce it from that kind of like global war on terror for one of a better phrase like era, Yeah, kind of cold that developed around the U Special Forces, and they're like, it's why you can buy navy ce or soap, right, and like they've they tried to do a similar thing but with a private military contractor do you know, like the what's the composition of these most like PMCs from I guess Western nations will be ex
military people. Is that the case with Wagner or where are they getting people from?
Yeah, it's it's from what I've seen of there.
The people that brought in is that you've got a core group of Russians who come from the more elite units. Now they've been they've been really assigned to the money making contracts in Africa, so you know, they they've operated alongside Malian truce and the whole idea there is that if they do take control of zones in the Marian government, disastering them a percentage of mineral mineral section and whatever
in the in the region. They've there's also been talk of their blatant intimidation and protection rackets of other Western you know, Western companies working in the Sahel, so they'll rock up and kind of we'll look after you isis or a kinda won't get you if you pay as a fee. And then if the company goes well, you know that's crazy. Then you know, suddenly attacks started happening.
But they seem to be a core in in Africa at least, and in Libya where they were heavily involved, there was a core group of Russians who were there, and then surrounding them there was kind of lesser specialized, lesser specialized troops, lesser elite troops. And then in Libya, especially during the during the fighting there when they fought for half darkly for a half there, you had you know, they brought in Syrians, they were known to have in
a few other different nationalities of basically eyed. They gathered in other countries and offer jobs. Yeah, so you had I think there was about fifteen hundred two thousand Assyrians at one point.
Because there's these huge numbers.
Of Wagner kind of been bounded a boat on maps and stuff like that on the Internet, and it's smoking mirrors. Actual proper Wagner personnel wouldn't be massive numbers, but they've got you know, they're bringing these almost auxiliaries from the like to Syria or other places that they've been.
In, right, Yeah, and they another thing I guess it was unique about them with that they were obsessed with posting on telegram like I've never seen just incredibly online to include like evidence of their war crimes, right, which I guess sometimes not at war at all, human rights
abuses would probably be more accurate. Yeah, yeah, we should probably talk about some of those, just so people can get a sense of I think what I'd like people to take from this, just to like be explicit about it, I suppose, is that, like all this stuff was happening in Africa, there was no lack of evidence or people trying to say and it was not paid attention to by the government or media really, especially in the US,
but also elsewhere. And then every already suddenly got sad when it happened in Ukraine because there was happening to people who were more valued. And I think we can we'll keep sucking up like that if we keep ignoring especially.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm I'm shocked in a way that there hasn't been heavier sanctions put on because there's been there's been two U of AN investigations into their activities.
There was the the murders.
They were complicit in the murder or actively participated in the murder of over three hundred millions in a village only a few months ago. There's been a UN investigation. They've been phound to have been there been participants in it. And there's nothing. And I'm you know, you're not seeing any UN sanctions. You're not you know, you're not seeing anything going on. The world seems to be turning a
blind eye to it. In Libya, I mean, the BBC had had a report, a special report where they'd actually found the iPad of one of the Wagner operators with tons and tons and tons of evidence as to what they were doing, numerous human rights abuses, and again it's just like, yeah, that's fine.
We won't really worry about it. Ops Ukraine.
Yeah, and it's it seems shocking to people. I think if you're just a consumer of you know, the New York Times or something, Wow, where did these guys come from? They're terrible, But they've been there for years, decade maybe, And because our news is very focused on certain countries, and certain things. It came as a shock to people, and maybe it just explained like obviously that human rights abuse has been again in Syria. I don't think I need to detail that. There are videos that people can
find on their own time if they want to. Yeah, some brutal executions in such but yeah, could you like at least sort of enumerate some instances where they've where they've done that in Africa, I can think of three or four countries at the top of my head.
Well, there's there's Valley as the instant one. There's the big one, which I think was three hundred civilians were murdered. They basically locked up in a village I think it was it's Moon or Mooney Monia as the name of the village in Mali. Yeah, they rocked up with the with Malian troops and proceeded to hunt for terrorists and murdered three hundred people, including beheadings and whatnot.
And that was there was absolutely.
One percent guaranteed there was Wagner operators did murder and behead local villagers. Six weeks ago, eight weeks ago, there was there was an attack against a convoy which included Wagner personnel and their responsib was to rock into a village and execute ten people. So you know that's two cases. That again, unless you're looking, unless you're kind of aware of the certain sources that are available and looking at localized local journalists who are in these in these countries,
it's not popping up anywhere. It's just not coming to life. You know, there's Central Africa there, there's been rapes, murders, there's been mass rapes, there's you know, there's been executions, torture. You know, it's just off the charts. In Mali there is actually unknown and it's becoming famous in Mali. There is the torture house inside one of their bases in Mali, and it's becoming it's widely known as there.
You know, it's more the.
Multinational organizations, the U N, the you all know about its presence. They all have the evidence, and yet there's nothing. There's still nothing to mean done.
Yeah, and I think it's easy. Like I think that happened if you remember when they were right in France, was that people would be like, oh, well, like you know, France is in all these countries in Africa, which obviously comes from a legacy of colonialism, which was violent and terrible, but there are other forces. Like I remember someone positing
that like Mali had been liberated from French control. Uh, France left, but like these guys came like it wasn't as if you know, there was a you know, a democratic transition of power or you know, like desirable outcome. And I think, yeah, well.
I mean, I mean, I mean even this morning they with the with the coup in Niger. You know, there was a put up by one of the Russian Twitter accounts claiming that the coup had been orchestrated and managed by Wagner who were liberating these from the from the coloneliness. It's just like, yeah, they actually believe there are you just do they actually believe their own stuff?
It's just amazing.
Well it's very well I don't know if they believe it, but it seems to be very well targeted to get people to believe it online. Right, Like there's this whole sort of hammer and sickle in biocommunity that thinks that what Russia is doing in Ukraine is denatifying. And when you couple with a lack of media coverage of Africa and a lack of knowledge of what's happened there. It's very understandable that people sort of don't quite grasp it. And I think that's that's that's an education thing, an
immedia thing. Yeah, but it's I think I think people may not be aware of. Is the one thing that has been reported a lot. It's a heavy, heavy losses have taken in Ukraine. Right often in like call the almost piano battalions that they have like that, they'll have convicts and things like that, Right, can you explain, Like I think this might lead people to believe that they're not capable of doing what they've done in Africa for a long time, But that's that's not correct, right, They're
still sending I guess operators to Africa. They're still doing their terrible ship in Africa.
Yeah, there's been even recently there was a lot of flights being picked up moving in and out of Africa which were Wagner associated aircraft And at first it was you know, this happened around the time they made them move towards back into Russia, towards towards Putin and there was a lot of questions as to as a pullout of personnel to support their what's going on in Russia. And then it stopped and the flights started coming back in.
But it looks like there's been a ramp up again in a lot of African countries.
So it looks like they're upping the personnel now. Whether it's they've they've cut some.
Kind of deal where they're now just gonna be a money maker, I'm not quite sure, but you know, that'll.
Be remained to be seen. If they have Orchestra Niger, which is possible, then it's clearly kind of a ramp up of operations. They're very, very skilled in whipping up local populations because they whipped up anti French sentiment in both Mali and in Brookino Fasso. And even though and you know the French did the French did bomb kind of drone strikes which you know, did kill civilians and stuff, but they the massive reaction to two Leasons Excelence was technique Wagner at the time.
It is a very lucrative almost informal empire for Russia, right, It's a very lucrative way for them to continue this process of extractive colonialism and violent subjugation of African people, and often in ways that are not that distinct from the colonialism that we saw you one hundred and fifty two hundred years ago and real like you've detailed brutal human rights abuses and it all extends all to extract wealth and resources from Africa in a very similar way
to what we've seen before, but in a less formal way, I guess than you know with French and British colonialism.
Yeah, it is, it's it's it's very much a corporate im period as opposed to a nationalistic imperialism in a way, and it's you know, the money is flowing into the pockets of the you know, the oligarchs and stuff in Russia.
I mean the there.
Was a I was in a of a discussion this morning about about Niger and someone made a comment about there being oh there's not the if you look at them, the Sahel map and the mineral wealth that there's there's more attractive kind of mineral kind of extraction further south into the Congo. But the thing is in and I've
worked in Mauritania. You know, you have Mauritania which is three times the size of France with a population of four million, and yet only one percent of the country has actually been surrouted for its mineral wealth, and it already has massive gold, iron and iron ore deposits and copper deposits. If you take that, if you go over into Burkino Faso, it has huge gold gold deposits which are under explored. It's relatively the vast majority will be
artisanal mining. The same with Mali. And if you go across into Nigir, you've got the huge uranium mine which is a keystone of the of the French nuclear industry Arlett, which would be worth a fortune to whoever would control the territory.
So it's.
It's a very colonialist I suppose manual to what the what Wagner are doing, but it's a very it's it's very much a corporate model as opposed to coming in and establishing governance. They're they're quite happy to leave kind of administration and governments and stuff like that too loocle go.
But they want the mineral wealth and they'll you know, they will manipulate and and embed themselves with the local military who you know, if you you know you've got Mali, it's it's governed now by a military military junta Niger is likely to be the same, and you can have Brookino Faso.
It's not quite far off that either.
And yeah, so they're if you don't in these countries, if you won't have the backing of the military, you've got nothing.
You're not going to be in power.
So yeah, and then if they could throw the military and then they control it in power, right and as long as that's amenable, like you say, to their desire to extract wealth, and they don't care.
And yeah, and it's you know the other part of it is they're they're bringing in all the toys for the for these god for these governments as well. They're importing drawns, they're importing weaponry, helicopters, you know.
Yeah, let's talk about a little bit, because that's something they seem to have. Like Eric Prince tried to get himself a plane, right and he didn't really do very well. And that, like their access to military hardware is it's unprecedented. So like where they're able to obtain all that.
Well, they're definitely they're definitely a collusion with I mean, whatever tensions there are in Ukraine between the Russian military and Wagner, there's definitely not any tensions between Wagner and the.
Russian military when it comes to secure and hardware for Africa.
Yeah, I mean they there was brand new twenty fours unloaded in Mali only last year and they met a very very big show of the French leaving and these and these helicopters arriving. So you know, there's there's been Turkish built drones are starting to are coming in left, right and center across all with the aid and.
Shipment by Wagner.
So they're they have incredible with Russian produced equipment. They have incredible access access to it, and it can only come from one place, it only it can only come from the military. And you know, doubt you know, we've we've seen Russian troops arrive in Ukraine with weapons that are fifty years old because there's nothing on their basis. Well kind of it's very clear that there was nothing on their basis because these weapons are shown are being transported for use in Africa.
Yeah, they've done the same in Myanmar, right, They're still selling planes, they're still selling munitions there, and it's yeah, yeah, like it's it's almost like a I don't know that there's like a corporate and a state structure, and sometimes it seems like especially well we see that in the US too, I guess, but they're competing, they're competing desires, they're parallel. One doesn't one doesn't have sort of over
the other. One thing I do want to get into is this culture that exists was in Wagner that is an extreme glorification of violence, right and in a glorification of sometimes of Nazism of other sort of related kind of things that I guess they see as like warrior societies. And you can see a lot in the telegram. Can you speak atle bit to that.
Yeah, it's been there's definitely been an element of these guys have been recruited from right wing in the in the Russian military, and we already know there was some of these units were heavily involved with the with the Russian football hooligans who had a very hard right leaning anyway, and you know, we've seen across like it's been hugely in evidence across some of the some of the said towns where there's been fighting in Libya where Wagner had
left graffiti of you know, the sonon Rand and a lot of these other Nazi symbols, and there is this whole mass glorification of violence from the top down. I mean the executions, beatings, you know, the torture of local non white people in there. You know that they're coming upcoming contact. But we've seen it in Syria, brutal executions. It's a very much a white supremacist.
Far right.
It's not even undertones because it's so it's so blatant, it's right in your face. I mean, they just don't hide it on their telegram channels, they don't hide it where they go. You know, we've seen military patches that they're wearing, which are you know, extreme right, graffiti they
leave behind which is extreme right. You know, even I haven't seen the movies they've met, but I believe they're they're actually there's there's a lot of image there as well, which would be you're right up the street of kind of neo fascist organizations as well.
Yeah, it certainly seems they're pretty expective about it, and no one they don't care. I mean, yeah, for Goose, you're not supposed to be called it Wagner because it was Hitler's favorite composer.
Right, Yeah, yeah, but yeah, there's.
Like some of the there's there's crossover between some of the other ruten far right or organizations and some of the you know, some of these units, these far right units who have been who are in in Ukraine and Wagner there is a kind of cross pollination personnel as well.
Yeah, yeah, it certainly seems they sort of go back and forth with the military. It's not like I think people would say there's more of a distinct entity than it perhaps is.
Yeah, they're they're not They're not a.
There's guys from Wagner will show up with with other organizations from time to time, but then they seem to kind of drift back to Wagner. And seeing that especially in Ukraine in sort as well in Libya, there was there was guys that have identified who were operating in you know, with Wagner in Libya who definitely had you know,
had operated with other organizations as well. You know, they've been I think there was a number of them were had been photographed that had actually been id during some of the football violence in Marcill during the European coupled a few years ago. So you know, they're they're in this in this circle and they're they are moving over and back between different organizations. But again it's it's a massive shower identity.
Yeah, it's yeah, it's part of this giant cluster of the sort of armed extreme right. Yeah, has been yeah, sort of festering for a long time, unnoticed by a lot of people. I wonder like, yeah, yeah, yeah, You've mentioned that if people aren't paying attention, they won't see things, which I think is right because it's not you know, it's not on primetime TV or TV at all. Where would you like, where would you go for coverage, especially let's say, you know, parts of Africa are you working?
I use I would use Twitter quite a lot to to look at what what local journalists are doing in you know, in places like Mali and the year I think I started off, I started off using Twitter in Yemen when I was working there because the you know, I was fifty kilometers from a town that was entirely controlled by al Qaeda, and one of them was on Twitter that they were all posting on Twitter, and you know, there was some fantastic local journalists who were posting on
Twitter as well, so you got to see in almost real time what was happening.
In these places. Yeah, and when there was.
No other media really and I carried on using Twitter and then because I do write security report, you know, digging around and you had there's a couple of online and as analysts and as people who are on who cover kind of global conflicts, but they do cover quite a lot in the help okay. Yeah, so you would have like the likes of War No War and people like that were very good on the arm side of things.
Yeah, he's very good at he keeps an eye on me mr as well.
Yeah.
Yeah, there's a few useful accounts. I think you do share them on your own accounts sometimes as well. I've seen I do.
Yeah, from time to time, I'll share them on my own.
Yeah, what is yours? If people want to follow along, pitch your feet.
It's Dermott and couse growth all right, so d or Mot and then calls growth COSG or orb. Yeah.
Oneful. It is one of those things that like we talk about, you know in many ways, where people spend too much time on Twitter and that you know, when it dies it will be nice. But it is something I was talking to colleagues in Rwanda a while ago. But I remember when going to Rwanda. One of the things that they ask you is that you've verified on Twitter. This was before you could buy a verification for seven dollars or whatever. It actually allows a lot of people
to work, especially in parts of Africa. It gives sort of like especially in places with the government of hostility journalism, it gives them an outside audience that will, one hopes, you know, make them a little bit safer. Also to be able to share these things. Yeah, yeah, and losing that, like there's no other platform that does that.
No, there isn't that.
It's a pity that it's that it's actually gone down the road. It's gone down. I mean, I would be I work a month on, month off, so I would be a big Twitter user when when I'm at work because you know, gathering information from my reports and so, and then at home I'm not on it so much. But you know, for local journalists and activists, it you know, it's a fantastic It's the whole idea is fantastic because
they are able to get that message out. They are more visible in countries where they've got repressive regimes, and it keeps an eye on them and you know, the more visibility they have. It wouldn't be one hundred percent safe, but they are a little bit safer.
Yeah, I've seen it with colleagues in me and Mari as well, just sort of it's only out to the world, you know, the Irrawadi and all these other publications which are able to get things out, and lots of those people are in hiding, you know, like they can't operate in cities, and they're able to get things out to the world. So like, for that alone, it's valuable. And yeah, it's a shame that it seems to go anywhere it's going.
Yeah, I think I think there was even the you know, during the well even currently, there's still some still some people in Afghanistan who are it's their only outlet to get information out about what's happening under the Taliban regime.
Yeah.
Yeah, I've in touch with a few people in Afghanistania that it's you know, that would all be lost. I wouldn't have ever found them otherwise or some of them know through friends. Yeah, and I want a fine chuck by asking like this. The stuff that Wagner has done in Africa is repulsive. Stuff done in Syria is disgusting, Like what if if you had your your like, if you had your way, like, how can people or how can governments or what can we do to stop this kind of you know, human rights abuse.
I think there's as much pressure should be can that can be put on in states obviously with congressmen and senators that if people go to them there in the UK government, you know, I'm irish.
You know, we have a long history of.
Peacekeeping and stuff like that, and you know, investigations of human rights abuses, so you know, it's putting pressure on your politicians that actually needs to be taken, you know. And the U N I'm I'm not a massive vanity win because they have been so ineffectual in places. I mean, my my brother was in was in Lebanon on three separate occasions with the with the unutiful force. I can described this, you know, one hand clapping because they even haven't strong their own people.
But you know, there there.
Isn't outside of the EU which can enforce sanctions on them. You know, there needs to be massive sanctions on anyone associated with Wagner.
Yeah, and there needs to be more.
I mean, you know, the the EU has pretty much been kicked out of the Sahel. There needs to be more a better relationship built up with these with these organized these governments. As repulsive as some of these governments are, there is no real other choice. But there has to be a way where Wagner have to be highlighted. If you know, journalists, get to journalists, ask them why isn't he Why aren't these questions being asked? Is this? You know,
why is it only being the focus? And I'm a big supporter of Ukraine, but why is it only since Ukraine that we're seeing Wagner televisions? Yeah, Yeah, they've been They've been murdering people, they were putting you know, they were pubbly trapping kids, toys and literally as they retreat a lot of out of Western Libia. Yet none of that appeared, you know, the one BBC report and it came out and it died afterwards, which you know, is you know, horrendous.
You know, this needs to be They need to be Harmard left bart the center.
Yeah, and I think a lot You're right, A lot of that comes from if you find editors, you can ask them why they haven't cover at this what is happening in Africa, Like they were putting human beings and holes in the ground.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, if you're on Twitter, jump on Twitter, follow the follow editors, news organizations.
And you know, tweeter at them. Just why aren't you covering this?
Yeah?
Make them say or make people explain why this doesn't matter as much? In the same with your politicians. I know, sometimes writing to politicians can seem ineffectual, but like I can't put sanctions on them, you know, and I can't. I don't have the ability to project force.
Yeah, and I don't think there's nothing that Wagner produced that you can kind of go, well, I'm not going to buy you know, I'm not going to buy this product because it impacts They don't care. They're they're not selling to the consumer. They're you know, they're stealing to put in their own buckets.
Yes, exactly, Yeah, Yeah, I think it was. That was wonderful there. That's Is there anything you want to else you on a plug or anywhere else people can find you learn out more, learn more about the stuff.
Well, well, I'm on Twitter is probably the best past. I have kind of promised myself to do a little bit more kind of on the highlighting the conflict in because because I work in North Africa, and even though I'm not in the Hell itself, the Hell has been It's always been a massive area of interest for me. So I've kind of, I probably will kind of flip my my Twitter around a bit more to reflect what's going on and across the health.
Yeah, so I'm on there.
I've got I've got an Instagram account, but that's only really if you like pictures of dogs.
Yeah, that's what it's good for. Yeah, Well, thank you very much for your time, Devic. We appreciate it, and yeah, I already learn a bit more about this.
It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.