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Hi everyone, and welcome to the show. It's just James today and I'm joined by doctor Sink. Doctor Sink's an educator based in California, and we're talking today about the recent attempted assassination of a Sikh activist and this now years long tendency of India to attempt to assassinate sick activists in the United States and in Canada and probably not the places too. Welcome to the show, dot to Sink.
All right, thank you, thank you for having me.
Yeah, you're welcome. And so I think people listening to this for the first time might not be super familiar with the situation in India and also like what Kalistan is and what that means. So I want to get into both of those things to start with. I think could you maybe explain Kalastan, Explain where it means. Maybe people have seen this yellow and green flag or heard the word, but they might not know what it means. So could you break that down for us?
Sure? Sure.
So Krlaistan is essentially freedom of liberation moment that starts in Punjab. So it's north of India, and Punjab is a region that is populated primarily of six, though the population numbers are changing, and so Kalistan is essentially sovereignty freedom, it's its own homeland, so it's labeled as the sick homeland.
However, there will be many.
Different ethnicities, many different people of religious backgrounds in Kadalaistan, so it is.
An ongoing movement.
The Indian state of course, it's not in their best interest to lose a chunk of land, and to lose especially a prosperous chunk of land, so they're doing everything in their power to silence those that speak about it, to oppress the people there so that they don't have enough willpower to fight back. So that's a very very brief introduction to it.
Yeah, so let's zoom out a little bit and talk about the history of sick people in India and then the recent tendency with mody to to sort of define Hinduism and Indianism as the same thing. And you can't be one without being the other. So maybe we can start with that history of sick people within India. We can pick it up like I guess wherever you want. You can start in nineteen thirties, or we can start a little bit later.
Yeah.
Well, actually, I think it's important to start even earlier than that. The origins of Six are in the region. Our faith was started in fourteen sixty nine activity, which is in now the Pakistan region, So that's where our faith was started, and our people have essentially been fighting an existential battle since the faith was formed. So different rulers of the time, different kingdoms in that area would attempt to kind of wipe Six out, and Six have
always been fighting back and fighting for their existence. So a small example of this is in seventeen thirty eight and up until the seventeen seventies, there was mass laughter of six and we're talking thousands killed on a single day period we referred as.
The Vudine shot dot Lugata, which is.
Basically in our history, the largest population of six decimated in a single day was in seventeen thirty eight.
In seventeen seventies.
As well, so we went from that circumstance to essentially forming our own kingdom, forming our own country. In seventeen ninety nine was formally established under Maha Dad Djid Singh, though the Six were operating independently even before that and kind of.
Governing their own regions.
But in seventeen ninety nine, the Sick Confederacy kind of joined and became what is now known as the region of Punjab.
So the British came to colonize.
They colonized India relatively quickly after arriving, and then when they approached the Sikh Kingdom, not only could they not penetrate it, they had to sign a treaty with Mahaja d Jid Singh, who was the ruler of Punjab at the time, and saying that we won't cross to the side of this river and you don't cross to the sub So they essentially signed a treaty saying we can coexist, but we won't come to your side because they feared
the repercussions of what that would lead to. And then slowly, as they have with many empires, they have kind of infiltrated. They paid folks, they sign traders, and they broke down the annexed Punjab in eighteen forty nine. So we have a period of colonization from eighteen forty nine officially till nineteen forty seven. And in nineteen forty seven the Radcliffe
Line is drawn. That is where Pakistan and now what we see as Pakistan and now India is what we see as India, though before it was all together and a large region of it was Punjab. When nineteen forty seven what Indian would refer to as independence, though it was actually a transfer of power.
The gandhis of the time are kind of credited with.
The independence movement, but they were working with the British for decades before that. They kind of knew that they would receive the reins once the British left the region, so truly it wasn't independence movement, it was a transfer of power from the British to them. So in nineteen forty seven, by creating kind of relationships through some false promises, the Hindu leaders of the time essentially guaranteed six that you guys know how to fight for your rights if
we were ever to infringe upon them. You guys are allowed to be in the Punjab region, it's essentially going to be autonomous.
So after independence, essentially.
They immediately renagged on all of their previous assurances and six have essentially kind of been fighting an independence movement since nineteen forty seven. They were not allowed to speak their language. There was a Punjabi suba movement in nineteen fifty five where they even had to fight for their native language to be able to speak their native language
in their region. And so now moving many iterations later, what we see is Modi kind of the I wouldn't say final form because we haven't lived to the end yet, but he is the latest iteration of Hindu nationalism, of
what extremism looks like. So he has now taken the work of the gandhis and all of the prime ministers of India and kind of the Indian deep state agenda and now transformed it to saying that we want to be a nation of one language, of one religion, of one kind of people, and there's really no space for minorities in there, though they won't say it openly because they want to carry the moniker of the world's biggest democracy. They are not a secular nation. And under Modi, we've
seen massacres. We've seen you very genocidal violence, which he himself allowed and which he was not even allowed to go into many Western countries because they held him accountable and responsible for leading the massacre of Muslims in two thousand and two of a job. But once he became prime minister, they kind of backed away from that and
chose financial relationships. So today we are in a place where six being less than two percent of the population in India are continuing their struggle for liberation, and the Indian state kind of consistent with their agenda since nineteen forty seven, doesn't have room for that difference, doesn't have room not only to give them their rights, but liberation entirely. That's the next step beyond that. So that's where we are today.
Yeah, there's a significant sick community, especially on the west coast of the USA, and I've met probably hundreds of sick people in the last year crossing the border for the reasons you've just outlined and others of course deciding they nearly all coming from India, right, and Punjab, and they have told me some really terrible stories, right, some really upsetting things. I've heard from lots of other people. It's not unique to them, but there's a significant sick
population on the west coast of the US. So can you explain I know that sick people here have been organizing for Kalustan for some time. There was even like a vote recently ventstand correctly, So can you explain, like that history of the sick dy aspirin how they've been really important in getting the word out and advocating.
First, yeah, I'm glad we touched on migration. Actually, mass migration out of Punjab is not a natural phenomenon. It is the outcome of very genocidal violence yea. And further than that, it's the continued violence and oppression through different ways.
So one example is there's a strong drug nexus in that area and anyone who is distributing drugs is protected by the Indian state, whether through bribery, whether through their agenda in general of keeping Punjab kind of addicted and away from liberation, So that is one.
Aspect of it.
Further, Bungjob for the listeners, Bunge ob means the land of five rivers. Bunge means five and ob means water, so its name is literally created on river water and the Indian state has now taken those river waters diverted them to different states of India, and Punjab gets no royalty for those as opposed to any other state of India. If they have a natural resource, they get to sell
it and their state gets the benefit of that. So Punjab at this point has been giving trillions of gallons of water to different states for free, and Punjab is there's different numbers out there, but sixty to sixty five percent and agrarian society, so everyone is essentially farming. And what the farmers of Punjab are being forced to do is dig underground for water, even though they have natural river water that should be going through Punjab itself, which
they can redistribute. So there's a huge farmer suicide problem happening in Punjab because they are unable to get out of debt. They are viewing farming as an unprofitable kind of a debt and business as opposed to farming and many other places, so it's very profitable. They're sick farmers in California who are multi multimillionaires, so it's not an unprofitable business.
However, the state has made it that way.
Understanding that if we can cripple farming their water supply and get their next generation addicted to drugs, then they'll be forced.
So the mass migration we see is not natural. It is the outcome of that.
And I'm sorry, I think I forgot the second part of your question, something about six in the Western.
Yeah, no, that's Okay, there's a really good explanation. It's really important. I think we should just take a little advertising break here, all right, we're back.
Yeah.
So the second part I wanted to ask about was the importance of this diaspora community in organizing FA Kalistan. Right because in addition to all these Indian government policies that you've outlined that are having these impacts in Punjab, and like we shouldn't discount the climate change is also having impacts there right, absolutely across the whole engeged subcontinent.
But in addition to that, right, there's a very powerful and developed Khalistan movement in the United States and in Canada that has been advocating for the issue and raising i think awareness, and that's what's been targeted now, right.
Yeah, absolutely, because they understand that if you say that word Carlostan with in Punjab, the police is working with them, the judicial system is working with them, Every single facet of any organizational institution is working for them. So, I mean there's been many people that do mention it and they end up dead, they end up in jails, They
you know, are silenced in one way or another. So despite that, though, still many more folks that believe in Colistan in Punjab than there are anywhere else in the world, and they are willing to say it openly despite the consequence of that, which is essentially jail or death.
In the millions. So what happens is when six are a forced to migrate out or migrate out for any reason.
They still hold those aspirations with them. They still remember the plight of their people in Pajab. So they have freedom of speech, which is what you should have in democracies, which they don't have in India. So when they have freedom of speech, they express those aspirations to the point where.
There are people being killed all over the world.
We named Canada and the US, but there was an activist poisoned in the UK just last year. There's been folks killed in Pakistan, which is on the other side of the border for India. And they tried to assassinate sick in New York and as recently as a few days ago, they tried to assassinate us.
Sick here in California.
So, I mean, the movement is very much alive and it's on the up, and I think the Indian state understands this. But they're having a tough time kind of wrapping their head around how to.
Silence folks outside of their borders.
That's really where we are because within their borders it's full on suppression.
You can't say it. Folks within Pujab.
When they leave Punjab and they come to different countries, their eyes kind of finally open as to why they were in the conditions they were in. It's almost like when you're in the middle of a storm. You don't know who you're in a storm, but when looking on the outside in you're seeing, hey, this is a very intentional and systematic genocide that is happening against our people.
So that is one aspect of it.
But it's becoming more organized, and you know, there's a referendum, there's intellectuals, there's conferences happening, there's grats roots organization and so ficks have the concept.
Called Chardvikala and Chaddikaala.
Is essentially ever rising spirits, is that no matter that higher conditions that you may be under, you still keep the hope for sovereignty and liberation alive. And we've seen that in our history where our population due to the oppression and the massacres dwindled down to the hundreds, and they were living in jungles, and even then they would exit the jungles fight work to free those being captured by the muguls at the time, or the people in
the region, and they would die fighting oftentimes. And so now we're in a position where there's millions of us. We have no excuse. We keep the aspiration for sovereignty alive, and we see it kind of thriving in places where we're allowed to express ourselves.
Yeah, so I think we should talk about this kind of transnational repression. It's not by any means unique Twindia. I mean, famously Russia loves to do this too, right, But let's talk about some of these incidents. There was a foiled assassination attempt in November of last year, right that the YAH arrested in India national for There was a successful assassination in Canada, and an attempted assassination just this week, as you say, in northern California.
Yeah, I mean, transnational repression is not a new phenomenon. But what we'd like to do is actually have it addressed for what it is. Why is it that the American public understands or the Western public understands that Russia doesn't, but when it comes to India, it's almost seen as this kind of yoga chai te, peace loving place, where in reality, anyone from there and anyone that's been on the other end of kind of oppression understands what India truly is. So I think what we'd like to do
is I don't think it's unreasonable. This is a nation that is very openly going on to other sovereign nations land and targeting their citizens of any religious Backrondah. So I think it's something that these governments should be taking seriously. And the fact that it continues to happen, I think is a reflection of how not seriously it's being taken.
If it was, you know, if there's you know, some sort of public.
Statements, sanctions, if there was you know, a full on effort to say that this is a violation of our sovereignty, yeah, it would perhaps slow down, but it's continuing, and it's continuing rapidly where we're seeing gunshots and you know, even though Indian nationals are being extra added to the states, it's not stopping. So I think more aggressive action is needed.
And the fact that it keeps happening. Is is just a reflection of how lacks these governments have been as a result of these actions.
Yeah, you don't see it referred to in the terms of transnational oppression or really like by the US government at least as this this consolidated program. It seems to be seen as like these incidents where then you know, joining the dots and being like, get this, this is an attempt at repression, you know, murder of US citizens in me that these two cases, right, I know this
just happened with other diaspora communities. Sometimes the like DJ or someone within that has reached out to people in the community, especially people who are prominent and been like, there is a legitimate risk of someone trying to kill you. Has that happened within the sick community?
Oh yeah, absolutely.
There's been multiple folks warned here in California, in Canada, all over the US that you know.
There is legitimate threats to your life.
Though it's a problem because they cannot give you any more information than that. So you ask, you know, where's the threat from. Let say, we can disclose that it's it's confidential. So obviously six who advocate for sovereignty and freedom of their people that can Punjab know where where the threat is from. Yeah, And I think the underlying understanding within the community is that Western countries understand it
as well. They're essentially waiting for when it is politically you know, acceptable, when it is politically beneficial for them to actually say something about it. And I think we are an under no illusions that you know that these guys are going to speak for us for the sake of justice, that they're going to you know, express our perspective and condemn these nations based on the protection of six. We know our liberation is going to be the result
of our efforts. But I think from a lobbying perspective, from an expression perspective, I think it is not unreasonable of us to.
Expect that of governments where we are citizens. Yeah.
Like it's kind of the trade that you make r in theory, Like you give up a lot of freedom and in turn you get safety in and you're giving up one and not getting the other right now, right right exactly. So, Like there have been various movements for Kaliftan, I think we should just mention that, like in the nineteen eighties, more like confrontational attempts at Kalistan like independence were met with collective punishment by the Indian state and non Sik people right within India.
Yeah.
So going dating back to the eighties, actually up until eighty four, there was no united Movement for independence something else he called up Prinda on It was kind of
the face of the thick rights movement. But in the document that they had proposed to the government, the an unput CYB resolution, it wasn't a proposition for exclusively six And I think that's an important point to continue to mention, is that the way the Indian state portrays Kalistan is anti Hindu, and I think they understand that to get the public support, we need to portray movements or anything really that's not in our interest as anti Hindu. We
need to make them feel threatened. Yeah, and if we can do that, there will be support for us to engage in these collective punishments.
So in the eighties and nineties, actually we call.
It the Decade of Disappearances, is where the Indian government went from village to village disappearing six hundreds of thousands.
Essentially, our last generation was wiped out by the Indian state. And you know, they disposed of.
Their bodies and crematories throw them in rivers, and you know, like we basically say that there's a sixth river of blood in Bujab because that is just how many young men were killed from eighty five to.
Nineteen ninety five. So there was an armed resistance against this.
I mean they were seeing their sisters taken into police stations and all kinds of atrocities committed against them. They were seeing their brothers disappeared, you know, their family members. So at some point it is better to give up your life than to live in these circumstances. And so that is the brink that they were pushed to, and so we lean on their example, though the movement does not quite exactly at that same place today, we lean on their example in that saying, these people were.
Willing to give up their lives for this.
Cause, and us sitting in comfort, even if it's you know, temporary safety, we have a responsibility to move this movement forward. And with these new assassinations, that's another important thing to mention. We've saw murders of essentially the biggest Pujabi pops, Sadhu Musah in history. I mean, this guy was in Hollywood, he was, he was everywhere, and when he started talking about Kadistan, when he started making music regarding Pajab's rights,
he was assassinated. And we're seeing a new wave of Indian oppression. And for the first time now people that thought, oh the eighties and nineties, you know, you guys could be making something up. Maybe the Indian government is right,
you guys can be making up. Now they're seeing these assassinations happen in front of their eyes, and they're making the judgment call as to who is in the right and who is in And I think that's another reason that the Kalistan movement continues to gain kind of solidarity within the six all over the world.
Yeah. Sure, Like if if a government is trying to assassinate people to just essentially saying something it disagrees with it, it's not hard to see like who's in the wrong exactly.
So I wonder, like, obviously there's a genuine threat to Sik communities here that continues to be a threat to seek migrants from both political parties in the United States, right, Yeah, I'm interested, but not hopeful to see how their asylum claims go based on this very obvious discrimination that you've outlined, and there's this threat to seek people in their homeland in point job, how can people who are not sick, who are not part of the community like be in solidary,
how can they support What can they do to, like I guess yet, to stop people being murdered?
Well, it sounds cliche to say awareness, but at this point in time, they're just enough people aware of you know, how in danger they are, because if they don't speak for six today, tomorrow it could be them. And if the Western governments are allowing foreign nations to come in and they have embassies in these countries, and they're allowing these nations to kind of, you know, assassinate their citizens, then what's to say that they won't be next tomorrow.
It's the age old saying there was no one left to speak for me. That's part of it is you have to understand the ramifications of ignoring something like this. So I guess the first thing we'd like to see
is solidarity with that Aalestine. Now most folks have an opinion on it, or at least they've heard the word and they've seen six everywhere you know where the folks that walk around with urbans, and we're one of the probably ninety nine percent of people you see with turbans on our six and so we're.
A very visible community.
However, the reasons we're here, our plight, understanding of our background is generally lacking. So I think the more that we can understand who six are, what their beliefs are, what they're fighting.
For, why they're here to begin with, I think, you know, there.
Will be more political pressure regarding that, and I'm seeing it starting to shift slightly, especially in the past five to ten years. We've tipped the skills just slightly, but we're far from from anywhere substantial.
Yeah, I think for like, at least for my group of friends, right, we go down to the border and help people, and like we've encountered sick people because they were always there with us helping us, right, Like some sick folks flew down from other places and joined us and stayed out there and helped us feed people. And like, sick folks have shown up for other people substantially all
over the world. And I think it would be really good to see people kind of reflect that that solidarity that's kind of baked into the sick religion that it would be nice to see people doing that in return, absolutely as seeks organized to their own community safety. Like obviously there's like a pressing danger to people, especially people who are vocal a Sikhs organized to like take care of one another in that sense.
To some extent.
Yes, And again a part of organization and having support that comes from that organization is having political power. And six have political power in certain instances, but they do not have a homeland or the resources to kind of back it up. And you know, politics kind of lobbying works with money. So the fact that we have these immigration problems a is a result of India's efforts, but be the reason that they don't have the support.
They need is because don't have a homeland where they can.
Say, all right, these are our beliefs, these are our people. We support our people, we will give them these resources that they need. So we're kind of always operating at a grassroots level. Yeah, and that's part of the issue is why there's not grand or large scale change.
But it continues to march forward.
You know, as generations grow up, as they become more involved in different facets.
A lot of people, especially in the United states.
Are first generation. So our parents' generation was just focused on surviving. How are we going to put food on the table? Are were going to put a roof over your head? And so the next generation kind of has the opportunity to explore how.
They can make a difference for their people. So Canada is getting there, the UK is getting there, the US.
Is behind just because our migration here was later than those places to that level.
But it's getting there.
Yeah, that's good. So people want to find out more about like the sick religion or like sick people. That good resources that you could suggest.
Yeah.
Absolutely, I think there's a very thorough background of what Calliston is just on callist on dot org. Okay, so kJ l I s t an dot org. They have publications, they have documentaries. They've done a significant amount of work to give the background of a Y six will never stop fighting for freedom and be kind of.
What the circumstances are today.
So they've they've done a fairly good job at that. Other than that, there's pages on social media. There's free five a B which stands for free puin job. It's it's on Twitter, TikTok and of course TikTok.
Has deleted that page many times.
So we're trying to figure out where the where the alliances are there, and Instagram of course has done their thing based on their alliances.
But there are some.
Resources out there, and of course if you google it, the first things that are going to come up is Times of India.
Yeah, you know, in those.
Tun Times basically saying this is a terrorist movement that's funded by foreign governments to break the unity integrity of India. It's a very rudimentary explanation, basically rooted in violence and how these people just have it out for us.
But the reality is entirely different and the facts speak to that.
And I think the assassination attempts of today, the folks that remain in Indian and jails today, there's a UK citizen in Indian jail.
There are you know, folks that are dying in Indian prisons.
There's folks that have completed their sentences six thirty plus years still sitting in Indian prisons. So all of the circumstances today kind of speak to why this movement exists and will continue to exist. So hopefully we can take advantage of some of the resources out there.
Yeah, that's great, and I hope people will go and look educate themselves. You can look up Culsa AID as well if you're interested in like the sort of sort of diarity and support side of Sikhism. Those people have been great at the border, and I know they've done tons about the great humanitarian work as well.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Is there anything else that you'd like people to know before we finish up here, like about six or about college down things they can do to help.
Yeah, I think I would, especially all the viewers.
I would like everyone to be open to the opportunity that there are more people in the world that are seeking to suppress and oppress than just what is told by American media today. At least be open to the opportunity. India is the world's biggest democracy today until it's not anymore, and communities like the six who have experienced violent genocide and today are experiencing the genocide. I think it's very important to understand that the sick genocide never ended. It
continues today in different facets, in different forms. So that's A and B the struggle for freedom and sovereignty, though they want to put it on. So the Indian state continuously tries to kill two birds with one stone. They have enemity with Pakistan, so they try to say that Kadistan is a movement to the byproduct of kind of focused on the interference, even though the facts speak otherwise.
That if it's not Fakistan that killed hundreds of thousands of six, it's not Fakistan that is assassinating six out in these foreign countries. So they try to kill two birds with one stone. India is definitely not a democracy. I would like the viewers to be open to that possibility as well and do.
Your own research.
Of course, I have a perspective based on the circumstances that my people have been through, and I would hope everyone can form a more thorough understanding and that there is a lot more happening, especially in that region than is politically correct to right now. So that's what I'll finish with.
Yeah, that's great, Thank you very much for that. I think that's a really good place to finish. Thank you so much for your time, and yeah, I really appreciate you explaining to that for us.
Of course, thank you for having me jail.
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