UM George flit uprising. You know, UH in Minneapolis, there were nurses union nurses who walked out the door UM to support UH. You know, people who were uh basically having an insurrection against like police violence in in Minneapolis when the when COVID pandemic hit off, year of everything going off, nurses and nurses were going out and confronting UH. Union nurses were going out and confronting anti mass protesters.
Like I was literally getting screamed out by like some Looney Tunes doctor holding a banner that said nurses are dying. Go home with like twenty other union nurses. And we were the only people out there who are like together, who are you know, immediately impacted by this stuff? And UM, And I think it made a difference, Like I think it's important and so I think that UM. And there's
some idea called social unionism. So if you get to the point where building a union and you're making progress, and you get to that point where you have a union, always be advocating for to the extent that you can that your union is engaged in the kind of UM, like connecting with your community around your workplace, figuring out the things that are impacting people's lives outside of unions, because I think that's another thing that um for a
long time, unions just ignored or let atrophy because they didn't think it was their problem anymore. Was you know,
mutual aid helped build the labor movement. You know, workers would get would literally like in West Virginia and Maitwan, Uh they had uh company police throwing people out of their apartments who are on strike, and the there were you know, all of a sudden, two thousand of your fellow workers showing up and throwing the police out of own and putting people's uh, you know, belongings back in
their house or you know. And I believe we're getting back to that point where you know, teachers went on striking West Virginia and the union and the teachers did everything they could to support their students while they were out, because like I think there's this idea that a lot of union workers at this point are you know, everyone is like, you know, the American workforce is so desperate and so and they've had just been pushed around so much that you know, there was this idea for a
time like in Wisconsin was or what was the Scott Walker consint uprising, wasn't it. I think it was like right around occupy It wasn't around there, And like there was this idea that's like, oh, you're a nurse, Oh you're a teacher, Like you should just be happy that your job has some kind of meaning to it, right, And it was a lot of like weird discourse around in the media and about like how dare these people?
I think that they deserve anything. And the thing is is that how can you, like, as a nurse, how can I take care of my patients safely when I'm constantly having, um like, more and more work put on me, right, and that that immediately affects the people that I'm taken care of. So that when when we went on strike in twenty nineteen, it was around our safe staffing. Um and if I've seen management make decisions about staffing that kill people, and I've seen management make decisions that lead
to my coworkers getting injured. Um I management made decisions that led to me getting COVID and messed me up for a year. And so when people in these kind of care worker roles, which I think has become a more prominent part of the US economy as people are getting older and they need more like care work, home care workers, nursing home workers, hospital workers. UM. Parents don't can't rely on family the way they used to to help take care kids. School has become like this really important,
like uh institution for you know, working class survival. UM that you can't do those jobs as a worker if you don't have the resources. So like our our children were at the Chicago public schools and there that you know, the Chicago Teachers Union, which was taken over by the rank and file UM, I think in two thousand five or six by you know, a group of black women led by Karen Lewis. They set up a group called like a rank and file caucus called the Caucus of
Rank and File Educators or Radical Educators. CORES might be messing on that, but it's called CORE. They went out on striking and as a you know, as just this was before my kids were old not to be in those schools. I was out there still taking them coffee and donuts, right because I knew that they're in there. Because things stuck. By the time my kids were old enough in nineteen for it to be a big thing,
and the teachers when out striking Chicago. It had gotten so it's so bad that Chicago teachers like Chicago Public schools have the the lowest number of staff two students of any school system in Illinois. It's not even like half right and um, And it's funny because the state had been constantly trying to erode the power of the union. They're making Chicago teachers like pay their for their own retirement basically in a way that no other like workers
have to. Um. They were making it so that Chicago teachers could only go on strike. Over of the teachers voted to go on strike. UM. So when So what that does is there's kind of like a a little bit of a flip where oh, we have to make of you know, people agree to go on strike. Well, let's organize so much that we get people to agree to go on strike, and then how powerful is our
strikes our strikes going to be. We're literally like one of the things I do as a steward is I connect with all the different unions and at the University Chicago where I work, through a labor council, we were going, as you know, university workers to all the picket lines of the public schools around our neighborhood and we're bringing out coffee, bring out donuts, talking to people. Hey, I'm a nurse. We were on strike like six or like two or three months ago. What do you all need
connecting with people? And then and then like at one point when the teachers were like, we're not getting what we want and this is LORI lightfoot is trash the area. UH, we helped organize this mass march where multiple marches of teachers and school workers and we're all out in the streets dodging cop cars until we have this big convergence.
And it was really beautiful. Like we had like multiple people with like multiple banners and different columns, each one saying we will win, going through the streets of our neighborhood. UM and like messing up like the commercial traffic area in uh, in our very bougie neighborhood. UM. But that was happening all over the city. And it's just like when you see that happen, it's because we're literally in the support of the community for those strikes was so
overwhelming because people knew that. It's like these people, aren't it. I mean, like, first off, it's a hard job there's no reason why anyone doing that job shouldn't have like a materially comfortable life. That's how stressful it is and how much work they do. Um and I really like, I really need to emphasize this enough. People. There's this whole thing was like, oh, teachers don't work over the summer, Like, oh, but no, no, Like their job sucks. They have to
they have to deal with these kids all day. And the other thing is like, you know, the part of it that you don't see is they have to do all a lesson plans, They have to great all the stuff, have to do all this stuff like after the school day end, they have to do all the suff honestly all the time. This job is awful. It is extremely hard, and like they don't Yeah, the conditions are extremely bad.
I'll never forget when I'll never forget when I ran into my seventh grade science teacher on the summer she was waiting tables at a local restaurant, you know, I mean, And so I think that there's this assumption that like that especially care workers get some sort of you can't you know, you can't cash in fulfillment, right or prestige or whatever that doesn't pay the rent, that doesn't put you know, groceries on your table um that sort of thing. And so, you know, I think we're beginning to see
this thing resurgence. And it started with teachers and I know for and teachers and nurses have been out fighting like hell for the past like five years, and it's beginning to kind of like spark other kinds of organizing outside of outside of the care work areas. And a lot of this stuff was It's funny how it was kind of like predicted by occupy and like revolt of
the carrying classes. Someone who wrote a really cool book that just came out, David Graeber, who was talking about like why is it that we're seeing all these people who are out in the streets like during occupy, who are like social workers and nurses and teachers and all
this stuff. There There's something going on here, and I think that so you'll see places where organizing conditions are easier because the pressure on especially care workers right now is immense in a way that it isn't as immense other places. But look at for those like when you're thinking about unions and whether to do build a union at your workplace or do some sort of collective organized
in your workplace? Do you have the dynamics where you guys are can the boss shut down your uh, your your workplace and move it like ten miles without completely
destroying their like their business right? And so you know, we've seen strikes happen in grocery stores, um and uh Massachusetts there was a really like uh pretty well publicized grocery worker strike and apparently there was like internal documents got released to like shareholders about how that was like one of the most like it was like for a month in the winter or three weeks, and they said they lost like of customers refused across the picket line.
I mean, and I think we're thinking it's like getting to the point where you can go on strike. It's a lot, it's a process, and it takes a lot of work, and I think that people underestimate what that looks like. Hence we see hashtag general strike things all
the time. Um, but like when you get there, I think that we're at a point now where people have a lot more sympathy for workers, and workers have become more visible in a way that they weren't before, Like the essential workers over the past year and a half have been the only workers that sometimes people will see, right, so you'll see things also like you have you know, Amazonians United, which is a union that's organizing, but they're
trying to organize something called a solidarity union. So they're not you know, at least the ones here in Chicago, and I think some of them in New York. And this may be changing. Things are always shifting around, but for a long for a while, through like the pandemic, they were organizing on a like in contrast to the best Summer uh Amazon campaign. Sorry, there was a a business union tried to organize a union in Alabama, Investment Alabama at an Amazon warehouse, and there was a lot
of like media attention to that. Democratic politicians, we're paying attention to it, you know, Joe Biden said, I support the right of workers to choose to have the choice. Stabby union some really milk tast bullshit and a lot of celebrities showing up. And what wasn't happening was you weren't seeing a lot of evidence that the workers themselves were very excited about the union. And it turned out
that that campaign failed. UM whereas workers at Amazonian's united up here like in Chicago, and granted it's a very different organizing environment in Illinois than it is in Alabama. Um, they haven't been focusing on getting contract. They've been focusing
on getting work changes. Like they're like, we want to have water, like we need water breaks, and so they would they have these stand up meetings at the beginning of every shift, and they had coordinated where you have, you know, thirty of your coworkers all say we're not starting until we get water, and then management panics because they're not used to that kind of demand. They're used to We're going to have a campaign then we can you know, mess with votes and that sort of thing
and make people afraid. Collective action overcomes fear, right, So when you have collective action, even through a regular like a more regular conventional union campaign, those collective actions are
what leads to successful unions. So like, um, so, you know, they'd say, we aren't starting the shift until we get water, and then all of a sudden, a manager disappears and then comes back with palates full of water, right, and all of a sudden, people are like, I'm gonna have a drink water before I start like all together and then they go off and do their thing, and it's like, you know, things like that build the power of the union to the point where they shut down that warehouse.
But then Amazonian United popped up in the three new warehouses that they set up in Chicago. So it's like when you build that kind of collective power and people feel like this is how you get things, then it's hard to repress. Right. It's one thing where like we lost an election, why did we even bother? It's another thing where like, no, we want like all this, like this, that, and the other thing like we got you know, like our regular schedules fixed, we got like water on our shifts.
We got this. You know. That's what gets people into the mindset that they can change things. And I think this is the thing that a lot of people don't get. It's it's like, the difficult part isn't getting people to agree that things are sucked up at your workplace. Most people understand that things are sucked up in their workplace. Difficult part isn't saying that, like, well, this is a solution, right.
The difficult part is getting people to understand that collective action is the only way to solve the problems right even within unionized workplaces, getting your coworkers to understand that if we don't do this as a collective, we will fail. And so like when there was a like the first successful private hospital union drive in North Carolina popped off early. UM. Throughout that campaign, they were constantly like demonstrations of collective power.
We're gonna do a vigil. How many people are gonna show up to the visual We're gonna all walk around stickers saying like safe staffing, safe lives or like you know, UM, patients over profits. That sort of stuff and building that kind of collective power together is what gets you, UM, It's what gets you a successful like, that's what builds
a union. Fundamentally, union is UM. There's the legal thing and then there's the real thing, and the real thing is only as powerful as people are willing to fight
for and build that kind of collective power together. When nurses were on straight and I talked a lot about nurses because I know a lot about nurses, but like you know, or like you know in um in Iowa, when the John Deere strike happened, people were out on those picket lines and people were ready to get hit by cars to like stop scabs from coming like crossing the picket line. And if you're not willing to do
that kind of stuff. And I'm not saying that you need to put your body on the line for things, but you do need to be willing to draw outside the lines. Right, there's the law, and then there's what you can get people to do. And you will be surprised when people start moving. They move fast and they get really riled up like this, funk, this, this is
what we're gonna do. And sometimes unions try and like bottle that energy up um or you know, if you're in a good union, you use that energy to fix things. So I think that's kind of where land on all this stuff. It's like be aware of like the pitfalls of what organizing at work means. Everyone has a right to organize at work everywhere in this country. If you get fired for like for organizing, you can fight that
that sort of thing. Yeah, it is, it's federally protected, like it's this is this is a federal government thing. Like you know, this is this is this is what we got in exchange for everything else is like like this is you know, like this this is what we got in exchange of putting our guns down, is that like, yeah, the the the actual FEDS will be like, no, you can't do this. Yeah, I mean, and sometimes that doesn't
sound like fold consolation and it doesn't always work. But and I guess this is the other thing is there are people who are like, this is how we're gonna, you know, we're gonna when socialism as everyone's in the union. And I guess, like my take on it is is this is how we build all the networks and get the skills and all the necessary things to be prepared
to do bigger stuff down the road. So when we when workers are talking to each other across like you know, at when the Chicago when Chicago teachers went on strike,
they didn't just go on strike as the teachers. They also talked to the They lined up their strike to go out at the same as education like the school workers who are in sc you and they went out at the same time, um in order to incre improve the power of the strike, because the more workers who are out, less able the bosses are to like like to undermine the boss either with people scabbing on each
other or whatever. And I think it's just like and like that's the point of our labor council is Like when like the grad workers at Universe Chicago go on strike, we got teachers out or we got well, there were teachers from CTU out on those picket lines. There were nurses and a new on those picket lines, and we were doing everything we could to communicate to each other because like in my work, it doesn't matter that I'm
a nurse and you're a secretary. We have the same boss, we have the same problems a lot of the times. And so I think people people want to do the thing, which is to all have the glorious general strike that like overthrows capitalism or whatever or fixes all the problems at your work. But you know, starting everyone forgets all
the necessary intermediate steps to get to that point. And sometimes it means just get the union in the door in the first place, because like at a campaign I was a part of here in Chicago where my University Chicago bought a non union hospital that was out in
the community. Just getting in there, they were able to expose like basically an entire hospital wide scheme of like racial racist like practices around raises and compensation and that is like that first step and then fixing that right because you don't want to have like white worse nurses making more than black nurses and black percent more than like did immigrant nurses like Filipino or like Mexican nurses. Get everyone on the same page so that you're fighting
together instead of fighting each other. And you know, those are those first steps that you take. And then and then you start reaching out to people on other other workplaces or other work areas and build that kind of militant see across unions so that you can support each other.
So maybe a secondary strike is illegal right now, but that doesn't mean that you don't have you know, teamsters who won't cross the picket line, right you know, how do you go out and make it or you can build that solidarity so that like in Buffalo and the UM, the c w A nurses went on strike and they
want pretty impressive things around staffing ratios. They literally had other unions going out and picketing board members of their hospitals businesses and like getting really really like aggressive with
that sort of stuff. So I think that I think that people need to just big takeaway is it's the biggest barrier to any of this stuff is just getting people to believe that collective action is possible and they can get you wins, and then making sure that you take your time and be patient and understand that there's going to be losses in the grand scheme of things.
Don't don't don't mistake what looks like a setback when it's actually a victory for like a victory, like for a real like a defeat and um, and talk with people like that's what they hate that, Like, bosses hate it when we're talking with each other and talk to people you're not comfortable with. That's the That's the other thing is that people are very nervous to talk to people.
Like it's always funny when you run into people who are ra ra like unions, ra ra like socialism, YadA YadA, YadA, and they don't talk to their co workers, right, and your coworkers are the people you're gonna be around for maybe some years, and that's where you spend a huge chunk of your time and like, but you don't know what's going on, they're like, Oh, they're all hostile. They don't want to know anything, they don't want to do anything.
Funny thing is is that oftentimes the most people who seem very skeptical and anti union can be flipped, and sometimes those people become the best, like the most dedicated people to the union. It also means that you're going to talk to people who disagree with Like there was a Trump dude who was on like the bargaining committee for like our last strike. He fucking loved that thing.
He was like, we're going on strike, but you know, it's also a union full of black women, and he shut the funk up when you know, it wasn't like, you know, being racist and ship, but you know you're gonna be with those people. And part of the thing is is that it's about how we're all moving together rather than making sure everyone is on the same page for every single thing, because the biggest thing is the collective action and building that collective power, and hopefully the
collective power is hopefully the collective power outweighs. It's if you stand firm on principles like anti racism and fighting against discrimination and misogyny that sort of thing, it actually builds the power of the union. I think that's the other things that people are like, oh, I don't you know, like you know, working class people are all racist or reactionary or whatever. So I'm going to do that And
that's how I'm gonna get That's my inn. And it's like, I think there are a lot of people who like, they really don't like you. They don't like being around loud, racist assholes or people who you know, say slurs, like especially if it's like I mean, you can make the arguments like this is that's their way of dividing us. Our goal is to be together. And historically speaking, the one thing that's done the most too fight working class
racism is union organizing. Ye. So, and I think also, like you know, in terms of like building something that's actually you know, durable and powerful on top of sort of just the division. I mean, you know, even when it becomes stuff like transphobia, right, it's like, you know, if if you can convince people to fight like first, like fight for the person next to them, right, you know, I mean this is this is the thing that people like said a lot during the Dween the Brainy campaign.
But it was like, you know, if people like, yeah, like if you can get someone to uh fight like fight for the person next to you in a concrete way in the work in a way that's actually real for something that doesn't directly affect them. You think, you know a A, it's just like the amount of power that you've built there is incredible. And then be also, Okay, I forgot where I was going with that, Daniel, please cut that. Hold on, hold on, I can kind of
build off. Let me just say this, My personal experience is that queer women run the labor movement and that like and that if you think that people who have been bullied from the day they like stepped into like a into a kindergarten aren't going to be the people who are most equipped to fight bullshit, bullying from a boss or injustice or bullshit you're fucking like, like, just get the funk out because you haven't been in a union and you don't know what you know. I mean,
you like the like people. Unions are at their best when they incorporate, you know, all, like when they are fighting for everybody, because what a boss can get away with with the weakest person, that's what they'll do to all of us if they get the chance. And so I think that there's this idea that's like, oh, we're going to set we're not going to we're going to
ignore this or that sort of thing. It's like, you know, that's when people like, you know, people will turn away from unions as they feel like they're not being listened to or taken seriously. And you don't know what people's like identities are just because you see how they look. And so I think that it's real important for us to understand that if we're going to fight these fights, we need to do so with the understanding that it's everybody, and that the working class is a giant, multi racial
conglomeration of every identity in this country. Um, and that the more marginal your identity is, the more useful having a union is to like solving your problems. Like I said, like racist racist compensation practices, there was no way that was going to get fixed, Like it wasn't even uncovered. People didn't understand it was happening in till like the union got in. Doesn't mean there are other ways to fix things, but it's one of the one of the
most powerful ways to fix things. I think that people just like don't understand because they don't have experience. Because they don't have an experience, they end up with they end up with misconceptions about what they're going to get into and then they get disappointed. And I think the reality, I mean, I think that the reality is not as bad as sometimes it seems. But also you gotta go into all this ship with open eyes. Yeah, And I think that there's and that's the other thing one of
the fun things. Maybe this will make it to the podcast. I don't know, but um, one of the fun things is always like hanging out with like if you like every workplace has like its lefties just about and like hanging out with the lefties who just can't get their brains wrapped around the ship that you need to have a union. I think that there's like this idea that's like, oh,
I'm gonna talk to my friend. They're like they're like they say they're a communists, so that the and then then all those people do not always but they're don't. They're sitting there, it's like talking a bunch of shit about like the union. They're a bunch of sellouts is or that, and it's like literally it's the only thing you're gonna do to get your like to fix the problem. And you're just like, we're just trying to get this
problem fixed. Can we just set aside what you think needs to happen like that you guys talked about it. You're like Spartacus leak meeting or whatever, like, oh, this isn't a real strike, Like we're not going out until like for like you know, three months. And it's like, you know, it's like the sort of thing where um sometimes or oftentimes, and I think it's because a lot of people kind of pick up their politics almost like an aesthetic as opposed to like a thing that like
is about like fixing the problems in their lives. And sometimes even I'm like, you know, like this is the problem that I face is like like shit is real, like a lot of people, and you can sit there and talk about this or that, and like you're you know, you think that things. You know, you've got this perfect ideal vision of what things should be, and then you've got this kind of imperfect thing in front of you that is, even though it's imperfect, it's basically what you've got.
And so it's like you've got to kind of you've got to work with what you have and fix it up and make it the best that you think it can be um, but also understand because it's an organization full of people that it's not going to be perfect every time. And yeah, maybe your union is going to do some liberal ship you know, and you're gonna and
that's going to annoy you. But you know, like, um, those people are still going to show up on the picket line if you're like, if you're organized and you're good and like, you know, that's it's not the end of the world that your union isn't perfect, um, but you've got to do everything you can to do your best to make it better because if you don't, then then liberals will do whatever they're gonna do or conservatives will do whatever they're gonna do, and then they will
like furtter away this thing. Like you can destroy a union if you aren't engaged. Like a union can be destroyed by people who think that you know, they're just like I just want to get my rays and like go home, and like, you know, if people's main concern is like their healthcare or like you know, that hour of prep time before they start their shift or whatever
should you know, start their school day or whatever. Um, you know, a union can like dissolve out from underneath you and people are like, why is no one showing up to this thing? It's because you didn't talk to people and find out what it is. I think that's the other thing is like listen, Like there's this idea that you're gonna get up and give a big speech and get everyone really excited about your about like being in a union. But the main thing is listening to
people and listening to people who are critics. You know, your coworkers who have complaints aren't like people that you should ignore. Those are people who need to listen to because those are people who they've got I mean, everyone's got legitimate problems with how you know work is happening. And like just because someone's like, you know, union is you know trash, Like then find out why they think it's trash and then try and be like I want to try and fix out what can we do to
fix it together? That sort of thing. I remember when when I was working, So I worked at like maintenance and a county facility for a while, and you know, so I was like a like I was like I was like a summer higher basically, and so we we weren't in the union, but like everyone we were working for was in the union, and they all like, you know, these are old ex construction worker guys and you know,
like they're in the union. But like I remember that we show these conversations that were like, okay, so we have a union meeting this week, just like do you want to be the person who tries to talk about raising wages? And it was like everyone was just like no. And you know, people, you know, like these guys are like very right wing and they were just sort of
like piste off all the time. But it was interesting because the thing they were piste off all the time about was that, like, you know, their union didn't do anything like the union like they they they're they they they they they were. They were basically constantly annoyed that like the union didn't like the the the union wasn't
fighting for pay raises, uson wasn't sort of fighting. And I think that was, you know, an example of how this stuff sort of just fails if if people aren't like if people don't feel like they can actually do something like itself. I mean, and they call it service unionism. There's this idea that like um or like like that a business union's job is to kind of serve you and you kind of like they do all the work.
Like one of the complaints that some people who are not big fans of our union and our hospital is that like, oh, well, other other unions have lawyers negotiate the contract for you. And when we negotiate, we have a room full of nurses who are doing the who are doing the negotiations, and the goal is to have it be as transparent as possible. And like the idea that you're going to hand over negotiate sations to a lawyer and somehow get a better deal than than a
room full of of the actual workers. And it's funny because we have our bargaining team and then like will periodically do something called open bargaining because it's the thing that bosses hate. It's like they want to make a deal like with a door shut right, um, But there's no reason why a union has to do that. Like,
you can invite whoever you want to your bargaining. You can invite community members to your bargaining if you feel like you're man it could because management behind closed doors will say all kinds of things, and you know they'll they'll trash talk everyone involved and they'll you know, and they will make absurd demands about you know, it's like, oh, you're all gonna take a pay cut you know on this contract, that sort of thing, and they hate it.
They absolutely hate it when like workers actually show up to these things. And so, um, I think that understanding that, Like, I think there's this idea that like some people are big on like we have to be kind of like secretive to like get the best deal, and like we shouldn't be like we shouldn't be transparent with everyone about what's going on because that's how like because then they'll
figure out some way to counter us. But in my experience, my understanding is that the more transparent your union is, the more involved people get, and the more able people are, the more willing people are to put their time and
energy into it. Because that's what comes down to, is like people out to like everyone's working and busy and their life life is hard and sucks, and so like do you have time to dedicate to show up to like talk to like if you why would you go to a union meeting if when you raise the concern like we want higher wages and like the union like staffer doesn't care if you get higher wages, because they're like while we're getting our union dudes, and like what
what then do we care? Right, that's like huge problem. And the part of the thing is that those problems don't get solved if they if they exist, because they that definitely exists in some mu and a lot of unions, more unions than uh than not um if the workers
don't get organized together. Like we just saw an election within the Teamsters International where uh the halfa uh Jimmy Haffa Jr. One of the half a kids was like president of the union and was this like not doing a great job and um, and like there was a ranking file like push to get that guy uh unelected, you know, and put it replaced with a rank and file worker who wants to put actual time and resources
into organizing. You know. Like there's nothing sadder than a than like watching a union campaign failed because the union clearly is phoning it in, Like that's happened. I've seen it happen, not inside my union, but in other unions and uh and I mean like at my workplace, there's several unions and I've seen I've seen a failed campaign and it's like obvious, like there's you know, I'm not I don't co sign everything that someone like Jay mccavalary.
I think that's altay share McCay bleary has to say. She wrote like no shortcuts. Um, I don't sign off on everything she has to say, but she has some really insightful things. It's like if you're not organizing to win, like you'll fail, and like you have to take this so seriously. And that's where like I'll say that, like, if you've got a choice between I'm gonna put time into a political political campaign versus a union campaign, You're going to get way more bang for your buck. You're
gonna get so much more experience. You're gonna get like a durable organization that's going to be around for years
if you put that time into a union campaign. Because like, imagine winning an election, right, um, except the politician you're running against is the incumbent, and they can um basically drag every one of their constituents into like a meeting and tell them how awful you are all the time, and lie and say whatever they want, and then they can, you know, do all kinds of tricks to like basically
dismantle your campaign. So I guess, like the thing that I would say is that like if you if you do it the right way and you actually win one of those campaigns, you're going to come out way ahead and sort of understanding, like you have to talk to people, you have to be super organized, you have to know what people's issues are in their different targeting units. UM. You have to find people like part of like it's
successful campaigns. I've been part of literally going on a search to go find like the people that need to be like signing cards and stuff. And you just have to be a very good listener, ready to talk and listen and hear what people have to say. Um, and then turn that um information into knowledge, knowledge and power um and UM. I think that, uh, if you pull it off, you have done something substantially harder than say like winning a school board election or something like that.
I mean, it's it's it really is. It's like taking like those kind of skills that you would use to like win some sort of small municipal election, and it's like exponentially more hard because the rules are just so tilted against you winning. So if you are serious about it, if you're serious about changing the world, if you can't
like someone. Yeah, I think Murray Bucksen once said, if you can't run for dog catcher, you probably shouldn't be talking about revolution, you know, But I think that probably more you know, more appropriate to be, Like, if you can't win a union election, you probably shouldn't be talking about revolution because even if you want to do all the things, you need to have the ability, the skills, the ability to mediate conflict, getting everyone on board, to
do the collective action that like you would need to do to successfully kind of like carry out like you know, it's one thing to have the grand insurrection, it's the other thing to carry it forward and keep hering it to the point where you're over the line you've completely changed the world, right, So, and I think that and so I just think that like UM and I think that's similar things go with like you know, tenant organizing,
community organizing. There's various types of organizing that use those similar skills that you get in like a union campaign, UM. And it's just a very different type of UM politics and organization and skills that you would get from you know, showing up for your local justice dem and you know, like knocking on the doors of strangers, you'll never you
may never speak to you again. You know, when you're talking with your coworkers, those your coworkers are going to be there until you're you know, you retire or you're fired or you quit. So anyway, that's I guess that's
another good takeaway I think from all this. So one thing I wanted to make sure to get to is, so I think there's a lot of people who are listening to this who working out non union workplaces and want to try to start this, and I wanted to know what would be your recommendations for them, you know, how, how how do you start this process? What does this look like? In what kinds of conversations should you be
having with your coworkers? Yeah, for sure. So, um, I think one of the first things that I think a lot of people, a lot of people don't understand is that there's an amount of risk and stuff too organizing, and that you're like, first off, like you should be chill and like not like running around telling everyone you want a union because that's a great way to lose
your job. Um. I think the thing is is that you build relationships and find out what's happening, like just like you know, take from your experience and figure out what's like in uh, like, man, it really sucks, like I got like I got screwed o here on my vacation requests, or like I you know, man, are raises were really shitty this year And I heard like you know, boss talking about like how much like like they've made
so much money that sort of thing. Um. So I think that it comes down to you have to be It's kind of like a combination of like like an investigative reporter and like someone who is just really good at like talking to people and just kind of like understanding what's making them tick and understanding also that maybe you're not the person who's going to get everyone on board, but that finding other people who every Like I think the big thing is like who's like the most respected
person on like in your work area that sort of thing, who like they know that the unit or they know the work area, they've been there the longest, they have like the most experience. People look up to them. There are the people who train other people that sort of thing.
Those are the people who everyone looks too. When it comes down to these sorts of things, and you know, just you don't have to be friends with everybody, but like doing it's I think it's really good to just, like two, be open to listening to everybody that you work with and finding out what it is that's really going on. Yes, I've noticed like in a lot of places that I've worked, like the bosses often don't really know what's going on either, like they and I think
that that that's something they can give you. If you understand how the process works and who's doing what and what people like need, that gives you like a big advantage over the bosses who just have no idea what's going on, which I think, Yeah, I think it's very it's very normal for bosses to really not know what's happening, and there's always someone who does, like figuring out the people who really know how things work are like those are like the those are the people who, um, you
want to be talking with and figuring out like where they kind of stand on things, and um, you know, I think like the first step is like just having good relationships and people trusting you and you know, you know, if you know, Like, I don't think everyone needs to be a superstar workers sort of thing to be a good union organizer. But like they always say, it's like people who have the most problems oftentimes are people that are don't make great organizers because people don't see them
as people to follow. But um um, but I think that it's important to just like talk with your to like just figure out what's going on first. That's your first step. Figure out what's going on? What are the things I mean? And you can come around together in you know, and like and how do you get people outside of the workplace? So you talk like how do you, like do you have like a group chat or signal chat or like a what to app chat or Facebook group?
And where do you just like start kind of like and you know, be very care be careful about who's involved, and just kind of like low key to like start talking with folks and identifying to people who, um, who are outside of your work area, who know people Like sometimes it's you know, you'll talk to people and they're like, I don't want to talk about a union, but you'll be like, do you know anyone who cares? Who who
has said anything about unions before? And so talking to people to find out who they know, Like these are all this kind of like crucial first steps to like organizing. And I think the thing is is that, like there have been times where you'll have a non union workplace where if the people in a particular area of of like a of like a hospital or like a workplace or whatever, we'll do some collective thing that gets some
sort of results. So I think it's always like it's like, let's get people to sign off on a petition about like you know, like if of your coworkers are unhappy with like races or something like that. Like the more people that are involved in those first steps, the more likely it is that it won't result in retaliation and
like you'll end up getting some sort of victory. Um. So I guess like the thing that I would say is just like be be ready for like people to look at greet you with skepticism because like it's it's hard, it's a hard thing to do, and always just be finding out what is bothering people and then look at little things that you can do to kind of like
flex power, like to like collectively flex your power. And um, it can be as small as like everyone bringing up the same issue at like a work meeting, right like if you and it could be like, hey, let's talk about this is this work meeting, this is and if
we all say something together like, we're going to be fine. Right. UM, So like starting with those first steps, I think it's the first like thing, Like the first thing is know what's going on, build relationships, be a trustworthy person, Like you can't be like the unit gossip or the the work area gossip that like knows that's in everyone's business or stirring up stuff and be successful at this UM.
But if you are, you know, if you're someone that people like trust or look to or you know, like a person that people are like they help solve our problems, those are the people who I mean, you're going to be well set to begin to kind of take the steps on that and then you know as you kind of build those kind of like build that organization step by step. No, no union UM is going to invest the time in a union campaign if it's just you and like to other people like you need like you
need to get a room. They're always say like, well, if you get a room full of people together, I'm willing to talk to them. And that's kind of the thing.
And you know, zoom and stuff has actually made that a little bit easier UM, which in some ways can be a weakness because you end up with like it's a lot less commitment to show up to a zoom meeting that it is to UM to show up at like a bar or a place after work UM or a church or wherever it's like a good like like neutral safe place that people feel like they can be
honest with each other about what's going on. UM. But at the same time, just like being the more the the more people you get on board with the thing, the more likely that it will succeed. You'll attract support from like an actual union that m is able to help you if you decide that that's how you want to do it, or if that makes sense in a legal context. And so I just like always like start small, figure out the small things, be willing to do like
collective action to get little small victories. And that's a great way to get started, I think, and then like really do like sleuthing and research, like figure about how
things actually work. UM. That's like, you know, that was the problem with the best amerket campaign down in uh down in Alabama with those Amazon workers is they didn't know how many people worked at that facility, and then all of a sudden they're like, oh, yeah, we're going to include like an extra thousand people in this vote, you know, like six weeks out, and you know, like I don't want to I don't want to take a
dump on the people who did that. But like, if you don't know that there's like another thousand people, or you don't have like everyone on board, you're not going
to succeed. So no, everything you can as you're going in and do everything you can to find out things or make buddies with the friends, but our buddies of the people who are gonna you know, know these things and you know, and then support each other, like it means showing up when like someone Sometimes what we do during these campaigns is someone will will have the contact for someone who's interested, and then your job is to go and find that person where they work and talk
with them, and then talk with them while they talk with their coworkers, or back up them while they're talking to the co workers, because they trust their their coworkers, trust their coworker. You know, you're a random stranger, you know, And then like, don't be afraid to say I don't know, but I will find out. Right, there's like this, there's this pressure I think to like have all the answers
to like whatever people's questions are. And I think that it's like, um, I think that it's like, I think that it's important to be honest when you don't understand, but then do the work of figuring out the answers for people. Um. And I think people respect that. And you know, a lot of people who are vocally against these sorts of things up front, it's because they don't know.
And if you you know, you're like, no, we've got a right to do this, or like, you know, the the you know, a management will say things like managion, it will say things like oh you will, um, you know, the union will get in between our relationship with you know, with you and us, right, And the point is is that like, well, the union is us where the cod where the people doing it? Like everyone running. You can't run a union if you don't have a bunch of
people involved from the workplace. And it's like and making sure that the people who are um, those people who end up being kind of like spokespersons for everyone else are people that folks trust and they have like a good like grasp of what everyone wants and yeah, so yeah, and then like you know, don't get bogged down in the legal ship. Like you know, collective action really is like your most powerful tool, um all the other kind of like the grievances and that's some stuff. It's important
and you can't let it go. But it's also like it's designed to kind of grind people down. So um, you know, the more collective action you take, like the more likely it is that you're going to be successful
and keep people engaged and excited. Yeah, going back to what you were saying earlier, this might mind out being last episode depending on where this breaksdown time wise, But yeah, I think it's also it's just this is gonna take time and a lot of work, And I think it's it's it's important age to understand going in that this is a long and difficult process. It's not gonna happen overnight, and be that it's a lot of work, Like you have to There's there's a lot of things that you
have to do. There's a lot of sort of logistics, there's a lot of talking, there's a lot of like negotiating, there's a lot of sort of. I mean just just even I don't know, before anything gets off the ground, you have to spend enormous amounts of time and effort doing stuff and that's that's that's like it's just the
reality of it. So yeah, there's there's no there's there's no there's there's there's there's no magic bullet like there's no sort of yeah, there's there's no just like one thing you can do that like magically makes it you need appear. It's a bunch of people coming together and like fighting for it for a long time. Yeah, I think that that's like the main thing is like you're it's it's a cliche that's like it's a marathon, not
as prints. Um. Sometimes I hate when people say that ship, but it's true, like you you really do have like, um, you're in it for the long haul, and a lot of times it's like your people are ready to do these things when they're like this is like I don't want you know, it's one thing to pop up in a place and be there for like you know, six months, like I need a we need a union, right, No one you know that works in that place, trust you, they don't know who you are, Like they're not going
to follow you to do anything or you know, or take your you know, follow your lead. Um, it's the people who are like, I'm gonna be here, this is my this is where I want to be, and you know, this is a I want to be here for the next few years, and think of it is like a long term investment in the quality of your life and the quality of life at your workplace, because to win,
you have to be sticking around, you know. And I think that's where it gets tough with people who are in like precarious types of employment or different types of and that's where you have to start looking at alternate ways to organize because maybe you're a precarious worker who does maybe you drive, like for a right here service, or maybe you like do delivery or like you know, um for an app or whatever to delivery for an app.
And I think the thing is is like that sort of thing because of how and you know, these aren't like new forms of work. This is actually really old forms of work that are just like been like rebranded by tech bros who have decided like they're like they're like they're great genius is like rebranding the kind of like precarious work that was really like prominent like throughout
the nineteenth century. And it's like, so then what do you do as you come up with ways to organize people regardless of like oh, like I'm you know, I work for this, like I work for lift or work for Uber and it kind of switches back and forth. Like the thing is, it's like that's when you start talking with you know, rideshare drivers across different like apps or whatever, and then you come up with a way to work collectively um to to change sorts of things.
And sometimes that's it's gonna be it's gonna be tough, you know. And that's when I kind of look at those that sort of thing is like this is where it's a learning experience and maybe I don't get everything I want, but you know it's really important. I mean, it's like building these networks that people who care about like what they're working conditions are like, and you can
pull things off maybe unexpectedly that you didn't expect. We're going to be like the thing, you know, like you may start with something that looks like a union drive and then you end up with something that looks like very different it could you know, could go in all sorts of different direction. So um, you know there and look outside of the US, you know, their countries where like in UM, I think that there have been some pretty successful delivery app organ to organizing in London UM.
And you know, I think that to a certain extent, like formal extent, US unions have not been very successful in organizing those workers because it doesn't it's hard to do from the extant business union model, and so it's like it's one of those things where you know it used to be, you know, they would have like you know, the fight would be instead of trying to get like workers are like a contract at a particular like work site, you set up a hiring hall, like the i w
W would set up hiring halls UM and like you know for lumberjacks and that sort of thing, and those workers are always pre areas right, but they would go trying set up so that like people would only take jobs out of the hiring hall and that's how they would control their like their work. And I think that more unions needed. And part of this is like if there's any union people out there who are in staff and that sort of thing is like there needs to be a serious re examination of how we do unions
in this country. And I think a lot of people inside unions understand that, but no one has quite done it yet in a way that's effective. And I think that we really do need to kind of re evaluate that sort of stuff. So just you know, as someone who's going into like a new sort of organizing campaign, just understand that like getting the union contract isn't necessarily the end gold end goal is to try and get your boss to do things differently so that you're not
like miserable at work. And that might look like a contract, or it might look like you know, a a one day like uh, you know, app strike or something like that. You know, you'll you'll figure you've got to figure out how it's gonna work. Like with you know, in healthcare, you know, there's this idea that like, you know, there's the gold standard of the strike where you strike until we win and we're out for like you know, like
two or three months. Well, the problem is is that there's an industry of scab nurses and healthcare workers where at any point they can bring in people to replace enough of you that a hospital can maintain operations. And unless you're super organized like they were up in um Buffalo, uh with c W A like, and have a big network of people and you're ready to go to like you know, board like picket board members houses and that
sort of stuff. Um, those long term strikes can end in defeat where you end up with you know, you're all replaced with scabs and and it sucks and it's happened, and then you gotta I guess you gotta learn from it, you know, like we've there was a famous strike in Minnesota with healthcare workers and they went out and they were out for months and months, and there are people on you know, going to the super kitchen to feed
their kids and stuff, and they lost right. And so my union tends to do one day strikes, but instead of just being at one hospital, we organized multiple hospitals across the country so that it soaks up all the like scat drives up scabs and it really like that. I think ideas like intermittent strikes were actually a really powerful tool back when you know, back when it was the c I oh and it was like we're going
to just stop working until he fixed this problem. UM, and that's why they made them illegal and it takes a lot of work to pull them off. But if you can't pull them off, that could be an effective way. And if you're not in a union, maybe getting people down for a one day like work stoppage at your work or even you know, maybe it's like we're not starting our shift right. I've been in the room. I've been in the room where it's like, no, we're not going out to take that assignment until like we get
our staff situation set up like fixed. And you know, sometimes it's just those collective actions are you know, it's not the end, Like there's no end. I'll be all one size fits all solution, just be ready to kind of like explore what it means get all the resources you can. There's groups like there's still like the Industrial Workers the World, which has really good organizing trainings o T one oh one and one oh two. I'll pitch that as a member of as a also a dual
carding member of the i w w UM. But there's also Labor notes UM and other groups like Essential Workers Organizing Committee that's sort of things that like give you good like rundowns on how to do the organizing work. So just be careful, always be careful, be aware that people are afraid. Bosses use fear um to scare you guys, to scare everybody, and like, the the more people on
board with a thing, the less fear. Like it's amazing when you're running up into a strike and you're really firing on all cylinders and like everyone in your like work areas we're getting together to take a picture, like get ready to go on strike, and it's like literally, i mean when we went on strike, when our hospital went on strike, it was the first time where like there was like nurses on one places the first time when all of us were in one place ever. And
it's just massive like coming together thing experience. And it's really hard to describe when you when because you know, we're always griping at each other about this or that thing. It's like, but when you're actually all out there together on the same time, when you pull it off, it's really amazing. Um, it's hard, it's it's hard to describe, um, but when you do it, it's like it's like the
purest drug. And so've I've heard some people who are union skeptical be like well, you just experienced like the good ship and like what about all the defeats, Like, well, get the little hits, get the little hits here and there, and get yourself to the point where you can do the big thing. You know, you're the whole thing is like getting people to do the thing is like the is it's like the perennial uh, you know, curse at
the left, can you do it? Or curse of you know, like the organizer activist or you know, whatever you wanna call it. You know, it's just but you know, if you don't do anything, nothing happens. You can all sit and complain and nothing changes. So you know the only way to changes things is take those complaints and turn them into collective action. Yeah, I think I think that's that's that that that that that's that's a pretty good positive note to end on. Just go do things. Go
do the thing now. Stop tweets, stop tweeting, stop tweeting about it, Go do the thing. Um yeah, I think that's I. Like, I guess one last thing because I talked about social media and talk you know, I talked smack. I like, I've been off Twitter for some months now, is it really cleared my brain. But you know, um, being on finding the social media space where your your coworkers are at is really important and that might mean setting up like a discord or you know, what's app
or a Facebook group. You can set up secret Facebook groups that no one could see. And yeah, like like Facebook will periodically shut them down. But like our hospital has like a like a Facebook group with like two thousand nurses and we and that's where we got really amped up. And it was a way for us to be talking with each other and talk each other through, um the stress of setting up you know this thing.
And then also like you know, people workers can't organize like like people will do organizing even if like they don't have like that full support. So like some coworkers, not coworkers, but members of my union went on strike at Cook County this year, and the whole thing was organized practically without like staff, right because the staff were barred from being in meetings, like in person meetings because of COVID and they couldn't go into the hospital because
of COVID. So people were very pissed about how things have been going and they were talking to each other and we organized that strike. They organized that strike on their own practically, um. You know, it lined up. They were off there. You know, they didn't have the no strike clause like operating at the time, and um, and they pulled off like a pretty like a significant victory um from their one day strike and it really um
really you know, like got them some big wins. But and they didn't they didn't need the union to do it for them. You know, the union was kind of like a facilitation tool rather than like the thing that got it done. I think that's the other thing is that there are people who think that like it's all dependent on like having like this hero staffer sort of thing situation, and at the end of the day, like if it's not the workers doing it themselves, nothing's going
to happen. Yeah. Yeah, the power, the power is with the working class itself, and if the working class doesn't use it, nothing will ever happen. Yeah. But if it does use it, I will trail off here. Sounds good. So, John, is is there any place that you want people to find things that you do? Like, Yeah, I used to be on Twitter. Um periodically will show up on uh varn vlog, which is uh see Derek Varnes m vlog on YouTube. Um, there's I recommend people UH listen to.
There's a group of podcasts called the Emancipatient Network. I really like their stuff specially UM. There's a what's it called General Intellect Unit, which talks about like cybernetics and the left. Um. They have a lot of particularly cool stuff that's just come out recently about UM, about strategy
that I think is really important for everyone to understand. Um. I was a founding member of the uh Libertarian Socialist Caucus at d s A. But I'm no longer in d s A. There's a but that group is still kind of kicking around. We're coming up with new things. Uh. Then then I guess like, Um, the University of Chicago Labor Council is a group that I spend a lot of time with. And there's also a tennants United High Park with Loan, which is a tenant union that you
helped set up. And to hell. Yeah, so you know, UM, go out there and you know, don't don't listen to me or don't try and find follow me. Go like you go figure it out and you're our neighborhood and yeah, and set up a mill set up a million different you know, like labor councils and worker committees and tenant unions that yeah, like build build power. That's why I think I sometimes we are afraid of the term power. I think that power is that it's best when it's everybody.
And so I guess I might say it's like go out there and build community and worker power are and um, don't be afraid because fear is the one thing that they've got to wave over our heads. And sometimes you just got to take that jump and do the thing. And uh and that's how we're hopefully going to win one day, say in the world. Yep. And you can do this just like all of these things, everything we've been talking about for the past like two hours, these
were all just done by ordinary people. Like there's there's there's it's all. It's all done my random people. And you know that random person can be you. You just have to go and do go to the thing. Yeah. So yeah, this that this has been It could happen here. You can find us on Twitter at happened here pod and also on Instagram there and uh yeah there's other
cool zone stuff. Oh I guess yeah, there's there's there's a new show called Megacorp that that we have that's about how corporations are bad and the first season about Amazon. It's out now. Okay, it just doesn't have a Twitter, but yeah, it's it's called Megacorp and you can find it wherever fine podcasts are distributed. Yes, okay, bye, It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media
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