The Lunar New Years Special: Part 1

Do a special luniar Year's episode and spend some time, I think talking about Chinese nous and how what sort of being a part of the Chinese diaspora in sort of in the US and Canada is like, and you know how how that how the influence is, how we organize, how what what we're afraid of, what we're sort of proud of? Um. And with me to talk about this, we have j n who I think first time I ever returning guests. Yeah, who is it works? With laus On? Hello j n Oh, what an honor. Thanks thanks for

inviting me back. Yeah, thank you for coming. And we also have Jane She who is a queer Chinese settler living in unseated traditional and ancestral territories and Mosquian Sasquamish and slave with tooth nations in what is falsely and fakely considered Canada. Um. She has a poet, writer, editor, and an organizer and does many other cool things. Hello, Jane, Welcome, Welcome to the show. Hello, thank you for having me. Um just wanted to share that it's musquam squamish and

slate with tooth. Yeah. Sorry, I apcuately, I do not live up north, and so my my pronunciations of tribal names are even worse than they are for the travel daves that are around me. So my apologies. So all right, before we get into a bunch of extremely grim stuff, I wanted to because this is the this if you will be listening to well, okay, unless listening to this on Monday night, in which case, uh, congratulations on beating time.

But most of your probably gonna listen to listening to this on on lunar New Years and so I wanted to before yeah, before everything is completely dark, I want you to know what you choose favorite Chinese New Year's food is because this is like maybe my favorite holiday, and it's basically my favorite holiday because in Grand Chinese tradition,

it's just an excuse to eat a lot. So yeah, opening the floor up, Yeah, I think you're the expert here, Jane, so feel free to I am not laid on the knowledge. I am not an expert. Just because I fault dumplings does not mean I'm an expert. But I mean I haven't spent like lunar New Year's with really that many other people in a very long time, so my sense of like breath of food has really really narrowed to

what is available to me. Um. And I also have been really struggling with the dumplings that I've been making because of like carpal tunnel issues. But I've been thinking a lot about jellyfish lately. Like I keep thinking about jellyfish, and I keep thinking about like the sesame anything with sesame in it. Yeah, and like just boiled dumplings I feel like are really great for me at this particular moment. Yeah. Yeah, my favorite is uh. In Cantanese, it's called me and go,

which is it's really yes um. And the way my mom used to make it all the time was like dip it in an egg first, um, And so it has this kind of like eggy crust on it, which is really really awesome. And I've been making up for the past couple of years myself where I am, and I can't wait to go to the grocery store and grab some because it's only available around this time. I

guess they don't really produce it any other time. And last time I went to visit my mom, she like loaded my suitcase full of them and that was able to eat them fast enough, unfortny and some of them went fast. Oh no, we have we have one in our refrigerator. I think it's I think it's it was in the freezer and it's now I think in the refrigerator and all incredibly excited to cut into it on New Year's Yeah, do you do? You guys do the because I know so we we only have red bean ones.

I know there's like brown sugar ones or something that are like plain wait, I just wanted to check, like is it nanal? Yeah? At least so like the sort of like flower thing that is like shaped like a semi circle. Yeah wait, yeah, I feel like there's different, like an entire circle. Yeah. We usually cut them into like like square strips, but I think that's just like a cooking ease of cooking thing. Yeah, And it usually comes with like a date or something on top. Yeah,

when it's packaged. That's so interesting because I feel like the nngal that I grew up with doesn't usually have a lot of things on it. It's kind of like sticky and kind of plain, and I'm just this is this is a new thing for me. Yeah. Yeah, the one we usually get just has red beans in it,

and then there's like the one day on the top. Oh, I don't know if you're thinking of like talenting Go, which is like a different type of dish um where it's like white rice cakes and then you you can like it's like saucy and then yeah, like different ingredients in it. Yeah, I think it's a different Ours are just that they're like they're they're pretty close to the Yeah, I think I think I'm just talking about the just

regularly and golic. They're just like like they're they're they're they're basically plain, but there's some red being like cirta into the dough and then it's just like the flat brown thing that you like fry. Yeah. Yeah, all right, this is we've now done dessert chat. I would honest honestly much much less grim time than most of the stuff that happens on here and you've all been now subjected to it. I go eat Chinese New Year's food,

it's great. A yeah. So on two things that are somewhat more grim um, I think there's there's two big things I want to talk about that sort of related to, like I guess Chinese diaspora nous um. I guess we can start with talking a bit about anti Asian violence and police violence, because I mean it's like, so my sort of into this is that my my someone Okay. So one of the things that's happened in the past about two years was this the huge sort of spike

and anti asition violence. But then you know, part of what happens politically around that was there was a huge attempt to essentially turn anti asition violence is you, I guess, like the anti BLM, like especially in the US, But I think I think this happened elsewhere too, where there reserves it didn't I don't know, it worked in some

places and didn't work in other places. So I went to the research Chicago and a few is it a few months ago, now maybe's a couple of a month that you ago a Asian Chinese international student like got shot on campus, and this turned into a huge sort of like bring more cops on campus that there was a huge petition that got signed. It was that people were like asking for security cameras and asking for our cops, and like the UCPD like a couple of weeks later

just like shot a dude. And so that there there's been I've been seeing this tension a lot. I was wondering a Futube had also sort of run into similar stuff and what your thoughts We're on it? UM. I mean, I feel like, unfortunately with Canada, there's like this dynamic where we look to the States for news and validation in this weird way that I find really delegitimizes the unique struggles that are here that are different. UM. There

are there's a different kind of police system. There's like the local police like Vancouver Police Department, UM, but then there's also the RCMP, the Royal Mountain Canadian Police, which are in other the municipalities. And the RCMP was created specifically UM as a tool of settler colonialism to enforce the Indian Act, which is UM, I guess the most succinctly way I can put it as segregation UM of Indigenous peoples from settlers, and there's a lot of displacement

of black communities across Canada. But and there was also slavery in Canada, even though we like to pretend that there wasn't. And so against this background, I guess um and ongoing like police brutality, whether it's in what's written territories or just the police killing people. There's a lot of mainstream Asian Canadian and Chinese Canadian institutions that are

very very much complicit in the system. Like there is an organization, an immigrant Chinese Canadian organization in Vancouver who one of the board members is a cop who is married to a a city councilor. And a lot of the discourse that institutions not people themselves necessarily, but institutions create around for example, the revitalization of Chinatown or the

president servation of the culture is around. Oh, there's graffiti in the neighborhood Chinatown and Vancouver is in the downtowning side was just considered, um, the poorest posted is considered the poorest post a cold in Canada, and it's like a tight knit community with a lot of indigenous people's, Black people people in poverty struggling against the poisoning massacre UM, wherein the government is not providing UM safe supply, and where the police just kind of like are everywhere pointing

guns and everyone displacing the tens cities and so when there is an easy and not an easy but just like a demonized group of people that UM, the general

public doesn't know enough about UM. If you walk through the downtowning side and talk to people, you would talk to people about their experiences with residential school, their experiences with missing family members, experiences with poverty and in the in the broadest terms, it's like the way that try and Town is being gentrified, people tend to blame the poor UM, and there's like this divide and conqueror mentality

within the Asian diaspora. When in the Chinese diaspora specifically, and so similar to happened with UM Michelle Go similar to her UM, there was a South Asian elderly woman who a group of people who lived in the intensity had killed pretending to be cops when they knocked on her door, and the county one of the city councilors UM in Vancouver was like this, we need to stop

and ulging in these tense cities. Um. Meanwhile, there's a lot of like marginalized people in these tense cities who who who can't um who need to live there because it's COVID times and society has abandoned them. So it's like anti Asian racism and violence has also the hate, the so called hate crime thing has so apparently increased,

um And I don't think that it's hasn't increased. It's just that like the way that the media, the way that the institutions within Canada is also jumping onto the police wagon, the police the hate crime angle rather than learn from abolitionists. Rather. Yeah, this is a long way of putting it. It's like similar, it's similar, and I know a lot of details because yeah, I mean I think that, yeah, I think that tracks. I mean the targets are slightly different just basis of news, but on

the sort of local context. But I think that, yeah, that tracks a lot with what we've been seeing here as I think there's a there's another thing that I don't know, So I I really don't like the term like because the is the Twitter hashtag is stoppation hate, Like I hate that framing of it as sort of hatred and not racism, but even the sort of the anti Asian violence framing, which I've been used a lot, I think has problems because you know, I mean, this

is one of the things you were talking about, one of the things that I've seen a lot. It's just you know, any time, like you know, there are genuine sort of racism attacks, right, but then there's a so just like I mean, one of the sort of scare things that happened here was it was like a bunch of people's, like a bunch of restI Chinese restaurants got broken into and robbed, and everyone was like, well, this is anti Asian violence, and it's like, well, no, like

this is just theft. And and there there's there's been this sort of like collapsing of something bad happens to an Asian person with specifically sort of like targeted racist attacks, and I think that's been well, I mean, that's been a problem. And there's also the secondary problem of you know who even who even gets included in this in

the first place. Like one of one of the biggest things I've been frustrated about is you know, the sort of the selective inclusion of South Asian people like I there there was there was a shooting at the fed X facility last year by a guy who was like very much, very far right, kind of like pilled online guy, and it killed a bunch of sea workers. And there was never there's just nothing, even like no one talked

about is anti Asition violence. But then you know, selectively, you get inclusions to South these Asian people when it's like it's it's it's like people get folded into being Asian when it's like useful to call from war police. But then when it's you know, not useful for that, or when it's you know, especially when it's working class people getting killed, there's just sort of nothing. And I've been I don't know, I've been really frustrated by this

dynamic a lot um. Yeah, Jane, I want to know what you think about this too, because I have no talks going enough about Yeah. I mean, you know, what wasn't there? There was a hate crime builder was passed in Congress, right, uh, And there was supposedly quote unquote supposed to be addressing all this quote unquote anti Asian hate stuff. And you know the only thing that accomplished was it created like some some government organ to like oversee these efforts to address hate crimes and then more

funding for the police. Right. So I think it was it was a very kind of direct impact. We could just see how this discourse transformed into exactly what a lot of you know, organizers had said would happen, which is more funny for the police and not making communities safer. Right. So, UM, I think the real conendrum for me and the thing that really kind of you know, I spent a lot of time thinking about this and I get I get kind of frustrated, is um, you know, whenever these these

attacks happen on you know, Asian heritage or Asian identified people. Um, the response, I mean, it's it's a good natured and it's well meaning, and I agree with it, but you know, the response is always like the telling folks who have been victimized or those who know them, um, that more police is not the answer, right, And you know, I

think that's true. But then I think when struggling with is how to make this message resonate with those folks, right, Because I think there's a way that in some ways that can alienate them even more and make them even more reaction, right, because that's you know, the media has

often spun that argument. Uh, they use further instances of violence to spin that argument of like when when people say the answer is not more cops, it doesn't make a safer the media is able to spend that to say, look, this isn't working right, it's things are actually getting more dangerous all the kind of like scaremongering tactics with crime statistics and all that stuff, which are usually false anyway.

So I think that's what I'm trying to figure out now, is like, you know, because in in Chinatown, l A, where you know, where I've done some work, there was community meetings with c c D, the Chinatown Committee for

Equitable Uh oh, what's what's destan for? I always forget development. Um. They had some meetings with community folks to kind of like, you know, hear what hear what they wanted to do to address this, and they kind of like a lot of those organizers had, um, you know, they're coming from that viewpoint that calling for more cops is not the answer, and so some of the mail they're from the community,

but they're not. They weren't part of the kind of like senior population of Chinatown, which is you know, it's like low income seniors is kind of like are the folks that are being pushed out and by developers and all the gentrification happening as well. Um, some of some men were kind of like, Okay, well we should start

kind of like armed neighborhood watch um. And you know, I think in some way that taps into this kind of like we protect us type of ethos, right, It's it's not relying on a state or government or whatever police paramilitary force. Um. But then I think the question that some folks had I heard the secondhand, was that, um, you know, are are these people actually from the community, and are they actually doing this to address the needs of the folks who are most affected by it? Right?

And so I think some folks were uncomfortable with the idea that there should be these kind of like street patrols. Um. And so there's there's just so many different ways to approach this, and I haven't you know, I'm not laying way or anyone, but I just haven't seen an effective way to counteract that call for more police. Yet. That's a really good point because I feel like in when especially um Asian women, people who experience like various forms

of sexual violence or UM street harassment. UM that sense of unsafety is amplified when we witness other people getting murdered in public spaces. And so I think in a way, it's like understandable why people want to grasp for any kind of solution and and also why that kind of trauma can be weaponized or like taken advantage of immediately, like just because I'm like, who asked for you to be street criptials of Chinatown? Who decided that you make

the communities safer? Have you consulted the seniors? Have you have you talked with all of the seniors, all of the elders to ask them, like how would you feel if I did that? Like where is that suggestion coming from? And I think that like the other argument is that like mental health resources is an alternative to policing, even though UM policing and mental health systems are very, very

very connected. UM. Edward Wong has an article about that in Upping the anti And I don't know, I just think that like there has to be like a way to talk about this without invalidating each other's trauma and invalidating UM people survival instincts as well, because I feel like, um, for years, as someone who's done work in the anti violence sector, it's not that I wanted there to be more policing. It's just that like a lot of survivors might be like, hey, I actually do want use the

court system because this person is dangerous. Like that's like, as somebody supporting a survivor, I can't just go up, no, you're wrong, less cops right, Like that's that's not a compassionate response. And it's also not a compassionate response to go, hey, you're making us like all about yourself and you should like to be talking about like black and Indigenous people

like like like that's that's also really insensitive. So it's like I feel like there's a way that there there is like a way to talk about abolition that really needs to respect every survivor or every like communities like trauma. And it's not an easy thing because it's not like our communities have had a good way to respond to trauma, Like we haven't really like we're still breaking the cycles

of intergenerational trauma. Yeah, And I think this this kind of comes back to another sort of difficulty of this whole project, because you know, a lot of the sort of the abolitionist framework is about like transitioning things towards

community solutions. But like what is that you know, like, what does that even mean when you're dealing with you know this, this is this is part of the problem with well, okay, you have armed self defense groups, but you know what happens when inevitably and this is this is just something that happens just you know, this is this is this is the nature of security forces, right is eventually you're going to get abusers in it. And

it's like, okay, well what happens then? And what happens when you know, like the abuses of people inside the community. And and this is compounded I think by this problem of like what like what even you know the I think I think there's there's there's there's a broader problem of like what Asian nous is and there's they brought up and this is this is also sort of localized problem of like what even like is the Chinese community

at all? Because you're dealing with something that's incredibly fragmented. You're dealing people who speak different languages, You're dealing with people who have been in these places for you know, some people have been here for centuries, some people who have been here like two months. And I think that makes it really difficult in a lot of ways to sort of like even even just bring together something that

could be a community. And I know, I know what happens, and I know, you know, there's there's there's lots of different sort of like fragmented communities. But but I think it makes this harder because there isn't a sort of like ready made thing you can turn to and go, Okay, well, this is how we're going, Like this is a group of people, and this is the sort of like social sphere, and this is the community that going to turn to to sort of deal with this stuff. There's just this

kind of a bunch of amorphous different groups. And then also you have the problem that like you know, if you're gonna talk about like political forces nation communities, like the business associations are extremely powerful and you know, we have different objectives than they do, but they're also like extremely well organized in a way that most other sort of like Chinese groups aren't. I don't know that that's

that's that's been where my thinking has been going on this. Yeah, I think, UM, this there's some residents with what you're saying in the kind of dynamics that you're identifying and what I've kind of witnessed and experienced in like Hong Kong desporal organizing UM, which I think, you know, there's a lot of overlap with that same type of like small business organization type of thing that usually dominates China towns across North America, which is the case in l

A and actually c C. He spends a lot of time fighting the small business organizations UM because they are very friendly with developers UM, and they're usually pro UM you know, pro securitization and anti for folks and all that kind of stuff. So there is that that element right where a lot of times, you know, you are fighting against people who might have to like stame heritages

for example, UM. And you know, for me personally, that's that's very much the case with Hong Kong ASPERG groups, right, because you know, many of them are very conservative, are right wing and not only just kind of held personal beliefs, but advocate a lot for these kind of you know, these policies and politicians and all these different things that

I really can't stand and I'm aligned against UM. And you know, I think it's a lot of folks want to take the kind of pregnantious root of like we'll work with you on things that we where we have points of unity, otherwise we don't. Whereas you know, I guess some people see me as as a little bit more rigid in the sense that like, I don't want to work with these folks at all, because UM, I see them as kind of themselves as as a force that is causing more harm than good, especially if with

these Hong Kong aspert groups. The usual mantra is like Hong Kong first, like everything that we do is is serving Hong Kong UM, and that you in the desper That usually means kind of like non partisanship, lobbying, congress, all those different things, UM. And then kind of like completely ignoring or being agnostic of local and domestic issues. UM. To oversimplify a little bit. So know, I think that's

been on my mind a lot. I know your question was about chineseness, but I guess for me that kind of filters a little bit further down to like what is being a Hong Kong Right, It's really difficult to organize with your specific quote unquote ethnic or diaspora community, and the the meaning of diaspora is not a cohesive

community but people's memories of home. Um. It's like a difficult thing to kind of but I butt your head against because it's like you have your UM diversity, equity inclusion framework of organizing, and then you have the every day like what what what these frameworks can't simplify, which is the tensions between your communities. Like I didn't grow up experiencing overt racist violence when I grew up in Richmond. UM.

Richmond is an extremely East Asian and Chinese suburb. UM that saw first um, not first, but just like at some point a wave of Hong Kong diaspora because of and then afterwards more like mainlanders, UM, and so on the playground, somebody was like, are you from Taiwan mainland or or Hong Kong? And that was when I was like seven, And that was my introduction to what it means to be in diaspora in this particular kind of way.

And UM being like just right like in that and in that and and figuring yourself out within that and seeing how there was just an absent of community because of how like these different geopolitical experiences have like separated us, um and made it more difficult. Um Like when we filter our parents political beliefs onto each other. It's kind

of like this awkward thing. But but I think that like UM in in trying to contend with that in the in the president, it's sort of like, um, we have these older institutions that other people that that the older generations have built. What new things can we build? What things can we um? Because I feel like I'm I'm really rigid too. I'm like really not great at talking across the aisle, and when I do, it's not

it's not really about anything substantive. It's like, hey, like hi, it's good to see you know, Like when you live in a place you you don't want to make like make enemies, but like it's it's a really hard thing, um. And it's even more heartbreaking when you find out slowly that people are just taking advantage of you, right like, and I don't know, it's it's a it's a really difficult thing to organize against when you're like you all hate me, great love it this has been they could

happen here, Join us for part two of this discussion. Tomorrow, we're going into more detail on the state of the Left. In the meantime, you can find us That Happened Here pod on Twitter, Instagram, and check out the cool Zone for other shows that we need from. It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media and more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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