The Junta’s Sham Elections and a Myanmar Update

want to get that wrong? So people will have heard Billy before and or heard from Billy when we finished our last series on them, where we spoke about the funding that the PDFs are using and how they're using a lot of unique and really innovative methods to continue to support their revolution when they're not getting very much at all in the way of international support, and certainly

nothing compared to countries like Ukraine. But what we wanted to talk a little bit about today was the s a C or the Hunter's attempts at kind of staging a sham election, which they've sort of back off on. Can you explain a little bit about what they had

proposed and then what they maybe what they're doing now, right? Yeah. Um, So the expectation was upon UM instigating the coup February that UM the state of emergency would end on UM February, which was two days ago, UM, giving them six months after that, uh, that period to kind of undertake an election.

And so the expectation was that before August one, there would be this sort of sham electoral process UM, and the the Hunter would essentially structure of the process in such a way that they they're there, their political party, the U s DP, would prevail, UM, and that the Commander in Chief men online who runs the HUNTA would and as he had dreamed to become the president of the country and kind of rule in a military dictatorship model, but under kind of these auspices of civilian governance. So

that was the expectation. But things have changed, as you kind of alluded to. Yeah, so they've they've said they've got to extend for another six months. Who's that right, that's right? UM, So they said they would extend for

another six months until August first. But then this morning they also announced a new political, Economic, and Social objectives which includes a five point road map UM, which, for those of you who have been following m R for some time, is often the way that they frame their UM kind of sham and circuitous approaches to civilian governance. UM. But UM that articulates a series of reforms, restoring law and order, you know, social development, implementing a peace process,

and then holding elections UM. And this is I think indicates to most people that elections are very unlikely to occur any time in the near future. UM. They did something almost identical in two thousand and four articulating a roadmap to democracy, and that didn't really start until two thousand and ten, UM, where when there were elections and

there weren't really meaningful ones until UM. This is kind of an indication to I think a lot of folks that UM elections are unlikely this year and that there's

kind of a long road ahead. UH. The interesting element of this will be to see how the the hunta's kind of enablers in the international community, including Thailand, China, and India in particular, how they will respond, in part because they were pushing the sac very hard to undertake these elections as a potential off ramp to the horrifying violence that is UM that resulted from the coup and UM, you know, all the atrocities that the SEC has committed.

Maybe we could talk a little bit about the international support they have because it's still quite significant, and like especially in terms of propping up their military force through the use of air power they can and they don't have domestic like fighting yet manufacturing, right, So can you talk a little bit about that, Like I think they received a couple more planes very recently, right, Yeah, from

UM the Chinese. UM. Yeah. There it's kind of an interesting dynamic whereby you have a an entire country of fifty three ish million people UM fighting against a tiny military institution of about five or fewer if you include their families and all the medics UM. And that tiny institution is being supported by just a handful of countries UM. As I said, kind of China, Russia, UH to a certain agree, Indian and Thailand, UM, and a few others UM.

And the vast mo jority of the world is kind of opposes this military takeover and the subsequent dictatorship and all the her indos atrocities that they've committed. UM. And so there's quite a lot of international actors who are providing kind of UM rhetorical support to the resistance and some you know, support to civil society and humanitarian assistance

and others. But you know, on balance the support that the Chinese, Indians Russians in particular UM have provided in terms of material assistance to the s A c UM as well as the diplomatic assistance that the Chinese provide at the Security Council in particular, but also the Ties provide UM with an ascion is you know for outweighs the rhetorical and small material assistance at the West and UM you know other supporters of the resistance movements have

provided UM so yes, to answer your question, the you know, the Chinese and Indians continue to provide material military assistance to the s A c UM. And you know, my question is kind of what is there theory of change here and how will UM supporting the SAC militarily lead

to anything like stabilization. It's just kind of perplexing to me when both countries are very UM interested in in in supporting US a level of functional stability so they can undertake their economic and geopolitical objectives UM, many of

which go through my Mr UM. I just don't really understand how they see kind of a military victory bry the s A c as a pathway to stabilization when you have an entire nation that has risen up against UH the dictatorship and has wholly rejected it and demonstrated that they're willing to make the these incredible sacrifices to UM to ensure that this coup does not succeed. Yeah, it is. It's very perfecting because like it's not in in any sort of conventional sense like a consolidated regime

and no show any chance of being one. Right, Like, it doesn't even have territorial control of a large sways of the country that they claims. Yeah, exactly, and you're you're even hearing this. I mean, there's been quite a bit of research, contested research that that shows the HUNTA has less than fifty control. But even today you are differ.

Yesterday you heard from an online the the hunter leader UM that he's now admitting that they UM only have sixty percent control, which is a pretty sangular analysis of what they control. UM, it's probably much smaller than that.

But you know, them demonstrating that they do not have UM control over forty of the country as a pretty staggering proposition and kind of indication to their allies that UM, you know, they just don't have the capacity to administer a country that's unwilling to be pacified and um so and and you know, on top of that, there's very little I just don't see a pathway in which they will capture more territory. Um. I mean they have, you know,

constrained resources. Um they have. I think they had twenty two entrants into the Defense Service Academy last year. I mean there's when they when there's casualties on the front lines, you just there's not a lot of replacement happening. Um, They're not able to get spare parts for their Russian made helicopters. You know, there's just major material constraints that the S a c. S. Military is facing, and it's just hard to imagine that they will ever regain much

more than you know, what they say is territorial control. Yeah, it's it's very if. Then if we look at the PDF by comparison, and I got banned from Twitter last week for posting a picture of them, but their equipment compared to even a year ago, is vastly improved. I don't know if you saw the one group of guys with it actually international rifle, but I have no idea where that came from, but it it's very impressive that

they have one. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of um Honestly, the resilience of this movement is partly a testament to the ingenuity and innovation UM. I mean, we saw it in the beginning in the non violent action, demonstrating or kind of deploying tactics that we've never seen before that have you know, been lessons to other international non violent movements around the world. Just really creative fundraising tactics, as you and I have discussed in the past. But yeah,

now it's the military ingenuity. I mean, essentially creating UM facilities for retrofitting drones for aerial attacks. UM. One of the military's helicopters was taken down this morning. I haven't I don't know exactly what weapons were used in that, but you know, it's just kind of a level of innovation given uh, these you know, the PDFs and most of the eras have have very little access to very

few kind of international um, you know, arms markets. So the fact that they're able to sustain themselves at all and maintain this, you know, which is probably much more of the territory is is kind of an incredible testament

to their innovation and ingenuity. Yeah, it's like there's a couple obviously of several PDF fighters who I keep in touch with, and like they they have spoken to me about like first or three D printed guns, which we've spoken about extentively, but also torna CA's night vision goggles, even process like like limbs people who have lost legs,

right to land minds and things. So like, it's amazing that they've set up all these things which normally require like a massive interaction with the state and with an international system, and they've done it using in this case, the Internet and a three hundred dollar printer. They've got an early Express or something. Yeah, it's incredible. Yeah, it's it's extremely sort of inspiration on that sense, but also very sad. Like I want to talk a little bit

about the the s a C seems to have. It's not fair to say they've pivoted to war crimes, because it's been kind of integral to what they've done from the outset, but they seem to have given up on trying to make like targeted strikes against the military formations and just pivoted to dropping bombs on civilians. Could you talk about a couple of those, like maybe we could talk about the Kitchen Music cultural festival they bombed, or

well one of the other examples of that. Yeah, there's definitely been a shift from UM a strategy of essentially augmenting UM or providing air support to UH kind of exposed frontline light infantry, to a tactic of targeted air strikes against civilian targets and against UM or organization headquarters which had UM under previous UM negotiation has been deemed like off limits, but UM it seems as if there's

nothing off limits now. They bombed UM the Chin National Front's headquarters which is right on the India Chin border UM on the western part of the mr UM and there's pretty reliable accounts that there were UM there were bombs that landed in Indian territory. UM. I mean, as you reference, they there was a bombing in um, a Chin state on a on a festival, killing at least

sixty civilians. They've done something similar on UM UH ethnic Armed Organization headquarters in the southeastern Karan territories, including the

our acount of armies facilities in those areas. So there has been a shift in tactic to UM targeting headquarters facilities in that sense and as you said, kind of civilian targets to I don't know, you know, this is just the modus operandi of an institution that is devoid of humanity and um, so alienated from society that they you know, they're they're willing to go to any ends to kind of protect themselves and their control of power.

I think, particularly now that they've seen that the public is against them, and um probably quite concerned that if they are unsuccessful in this military endeavor that they will be kind of strung up, you know. So it's um yeah, I think it's kind of a sign of desperation and

as you mentioned, kind of a tactical shifty. Maybe we should explain the sort of four cut strategy, which has been a long term strategy even before the coupe of the military, and what that means and how that sort of provide I guess I didn't like a moral framework, maybe a certain weight that you know that it's it's not like they started doing this ship in February one, right like that, this is what this is how they do stuff. I mean, this is an institution that's been

at war with its own people for seventy years. Um yeah, I mean, the there is an underlying philosophy of them, our military that that that they essentially are the protectors of national sovereignty and to a certain degree of protectors of the Bamar ethnic group and Bomar Buddhism in particular.

And UM, this is a deeply in trance philosophy within the UM military establishment, and UM it's been to a certain degree a fairly compelling narrative for retention and institutional solidarity, which is why in some part, I mean, it's one of the reasons there are a number why this the s A C. And the sit that memory military is has been resilient to UM collapse despite you know, being extremely incompetent and UM very isolated UM and virtually never

having one a war, despite being at war for seventy years and having structural and military manages UM. And so this is kind of underlying the justification and the moral philosophy of this institution that is morally UM corrupted. But as you said, their UM tactical strategy is essentially one of social isolation, division UM and ensuring as much human suffering as possible so as to UM pacify a population

into submission. And so essentially the strategy is to kind of cut communications and food supply and um uh connections between communities and these sorts of things, which is um we're For a very long time, the military strategy has been one of divide and conquer, in which they've um attempted to exacerbate divisions between ethnic and religious minority communities to ensure that they would not face a united front.

And so the incredible challenge and opportunity of the current resistance movement is one in which the MIAM or military is no longer at the table in conversations with one another, um and they are trying to build cohesion with one another.

And frankly, this is where there's unbelievable progress that I don't think gets enough attention and appreciation that there's meaningful changes in behavior in terms of the Bomar majority ethnic communities, posture towards ethnic and religious minorities, and you know, communication and coordination across UM institutions that had historically been at odds and happy to go more into that, but yeah,

the strategy of dividing conqueror is really front and center. Yeah, and ironically, by pushing that so high that they've they've done the complete opposite, which is forced people to form like a popular front against him. Yeah, let's talk about that, because I find it really fascinating, how like even how like E A O s and PDFs are kind of

vaguely underneath a unified command at this point. And again, let's talk about how those barriers which you doceted for so long a sort of gradually breaking down now, yeah, rapidly. I guess one of the ways in which there's been a meaningful shift has been just kind of the individual

experiences of the military's atrocities. I mean, um, I think in your previous episode with Conchomo, he had indicated that, uh, you know, public perception of Rohena has shifted somewhat, although it's kind of questionable whether it's a durable shift and

whether it's meaningful and all that. But um, he had attributed that shift in part to the fact that the Bomar majority Buddhist population is now experiencing frankly, some of the forms of atrocity that the Rohenja had experienced, you know, in the seventies and the nineties and then in seventeen

um when things escalated to genocide. So I think this is One of the shifts is that the in the Burmese heartland, in the area where the military recruits most of its soldiers, UM, they are undertaking the most arguably the most um extreme atrocities, burning villages to the ground, um, you know, just horrendous stuff that like I don't even want to say on the air, but just um, you know,

just an incredible campaign of terror. Um. In part because the people's defense forces and the resistance forces are are extremely strong there and only strengthening in response to these atrocities. So I think that's one of the dynamics is that there's um, there's been a shift in perception because of um, because of the Hunter's behavior. Another is that, frankly, there's

just a man of political shift at play. I mean, you have you know, February one, the National League, like Nationally for Democracy led government is deposed and they don't necessarily have arms or an experience of military combat, whereas the ethnic armed organizations have been fighting for seventy years against the central government, including the National League for Democracy

led government. And so there is a shift in power at that moment um that you know, shift power from the Bamar center to ethnic minority communities in a in a particular way. So UM, that kind of open space for greater humility and greater dialogue and UM, you know, willingness to make concessions to ethnic and religious inn arty communities. UM,

and that isn't there's actually been tremendous progress there. So there's the National Unity Consultative Council, which is, you know, probably the most important dialogue platform, but one one that is very focused on big picture governance challenges UM and long term kind of national dialogue processes. But UM, there's been some good progress there. But frankly, the most progress has been made in UM military and governance coordination platforms.

So this includes the C three C, which is essentially a commanded control platform that's between the National Unity government and ethnic armed organization leadership where they're coordinating military strategy and tactics. So that and there's been considerable trust building through those sorts of operations. And similarly, there's been trust building in you know, basic things like coordinating humanitarian assistance or UM local administration or policing these sorts of things.

UM where there's um, you know, there's a problem that's needed to be solved in the near term and we can come together to solve it collaboratively and in that process sort of build understanding and trust with one another. So UM, there's been really meaningful differences I've seen in

terms of cohesion across traditional lines of intercommunal division. UM. Obviously a long way to go, but this is a lot of what what we're working on at the US and Student Peace and UM that the U. S. Government is supporting is trying to support the resistance capacity to chart a viable pathway to stabilization, and a lot of that relies upon building cohesion and trust among resistance groups. Yeah.

Everyone I spoke to Neibly, not everyone I spoke to is Mama, some people with Karen UM and some of them were some of the people we've spoken to, like remotely or Ranger. UM. All of them said that what has to come out of this is like a federalized democracy. Do you think that that's that's likely? And what does that look like in the country it's spent war with itself for most of the last century. Yeah, I mean, clearly this is a question that needs to be answered

by them people. UM. And I think the National Unity Consultative Council is a good platform for having this discussion. But there is a number of free requisits for for having that discussion is and one of them is kind of new norms of dialogue based on trust and mutual um respect. But yeah, I think that um, the only viable pathway to stability is you know, is one that results in a federal democratic system in which subnational federal units have a degree of autonomy, UM, and in which

there is a baseline of equality. UM, there's rule of law, independent judiciary, UM. You know, just the basic fundamentals that

ensure protections of minority populations. UM. You know. Another challenge being that even you know, within states like Kachin State, where you know, the Kachin at the community is an ethnic minority at the national level, but there are also subminaries that you know, like the Shawnee population, and and there's concerns that you know, there may um, there needs to be protections for the minorities within the minority state. So you know, all of these things need to be

sort of worked out. And this is of course, like a maybe a decade long national dialogue process that will ultimately culminate in a new federal governance structure, a new security structure that you know, maybe doesn't have a federal you know, a union level military with the level of autonomy or political involvement that you know has played this country for so long. But this is really like the key to long term peace and stability in the country. And frankly, like it felt a long way off under

the NLD administration. I mean, they were making a lot of progress in a lot of ways, but you know, building a just and inequitable governance structure in which ethnic and religious minorities had a voice and didn't feel oppressed by the dominant Bmar Budhist population um Avranfully it was,

it was quite all ways off. And this, you know, as horrible as the cure has been, it is definitely a shock to the system that may open up new pathways for dialogue, um, new opportunities for trust building, and you know, the opportunity to you know, think about a new model of governance that is you know, more just

more equitable and more inclusive. Yeah, it's definitely brought in a whole generation of younger people who like aren't sort of who didn't come through the institutions that created the old regime and just came at this it's like I'm seventeen and I'm bucking angry and like I'm going to make this better sort of however I can. And yeah, they're they're really, I mean obviously very inspirational and then fascinated to talk to. I wonder, like, how do you

see the end to this conflict? Because we're still a long way from either side having an definitive military victory. Right, Certainly, all these big cities are still more or less controlled by the Hunter and that's there's not an immediate way that I can foresee them not being that way. So if I could ask you to like speculate a little bit or look at the way things are going, how do we get out of the situation where the Hunters bombing schools and music concerts and right, um m hmm,

it's yeah. This is honestly, like I think everyone is kind of lost, um in our attempts to make predictions of where this is going. Um, Honestly, I don't know that there is a path to a military victory for either side here. Um, I mean, it seems pretty unlikely that you'll SEEPDS marching on nepied on capturing the Ministry of Defense, anytime soon, UM. But equally unlikely that the s a C will consolidate, you know, control of the country.

I mean, that's just that's just not going to happen. UM. So I mean the the a lot of our work is thinking through the best possible outcomes and increasing the probably trying doing the work to try to increase the probability of those outcomes. And I think the UM this is where it's just like I have questions for a lot of the international actors that are supporting the s a C, because I I just don't know of any possible pathway to peace and stabilization that goes through a

stronger s a C. It just seems unfathomable. UM. But you know, there are pathways to stabilization that go through a stronger resistance movement that either yields some radical transformation of the SACS composition and then some sort of dialogue process UM, or you know, just a very very extended UM conflict in which you know, the resistance holds territory UM in some parts of the country, the SAC controls

some other areas UM over an extended period. The ethnic arm to organizations contain kind of UM act more and more autonomously, and you have areas in you know, Kachin and Wa Ho Kong and the Chinese border, re Kind State that's kind of gained a bit more autonomy and sort of act more independently of one another. So like this sort of fragmentation process. And honestly, if if there is an election, you know, a sham election by the s a C, it seems to increase the probability of

this fragmentation scenario. Um. You know, it increases the probability that the SAC just maintains its presence in the in the urban areas, and then Rekind State, Kachin State, Waw State, these kind of become more autonomous regions, Chin State, um,

and they start to operate as semi independent states. So honestly, that's that's part of why I feel like support to the s a C. Not only is it the SAC for the elections, I should say, not only does it almost definitely increased violence because you know, the elections are a target, but also it increases the probability of national fragmentation UM. And it doesn't do anything to increase the probability of stability. So I just don't I don't really see that that being a pathway to any form of

stability or ending the SACS bombings of schools. Yeah, I think it gives them this way talking point bit at the Russian sham elections in the Dom Bass, like like because we saw like I think it was a mobi a PDFU. I don't know if you saw this, but they did a drive by and shot some people who were polling for it out doing some kind of election stuff, and obviously that gives them this kind of Oh, look,

our election workers are being attacked with terrible people. The PDFs are kind of but you know, if you've spent more than ten minutes your entire life reading about Memma, then you realize that that's the false claim. The international community just doesn't seem to care to a large degree about the trustees in Miama, about the revolution in Miama, about the core and MIMA certainly doesn't care in the

same way that it cares about what's happening in Ukraine. Right, it doesn't care with man pads and tanks and guns and training and all the things that could bring this water an end much more quickly. Do you think that that will change or it's just going to be Burmese people liberating Burmese people because the world doesn't care about them,

It doesn't care in a material fashion. Yeah. I think there's like, yeah, I think there's UM sort of like two dynamics, and player one is that, Yeah, people care a lot less than Ukraine or Taiwan or other geopolitical interest. They see this to a certain level as a domestic issue that doesn't have regional locations, something that we're very focused on demonstrating is totally untrue. UM. And the other

thing is that people don't know what to do. And like I mean, even UM, the US Congress just past the Burma Act, which is a piece of legislation that essentially signals congressional interest in Burma and more to be done UM, alongside appropriations of resources to support it. UM. The challenge now is figuring out what is the best use of resources. And I think that UM countries like Japan and UM, honestly some U states, you know, Ascan states.

It's more they are very uncomfortable with the engaging with revolutionary actors and there's just not a lot of certainty as to how to help because there's like, okay, military assistance UM. To the end, EU G It's like there's a lot of concern that you know, you know, significant expansion of arms access in the country is you know, you have this mass proliferation of weapons. You have you know, concerns about post conflict warlordism or weapons and resources getting

into the hands of narco traffickers. UM. You know, there's just a lot of uncertainty, and so there's not an adequate given what the first point that this is really a kind of peripheral regional matter in the eyes of some UM, it yields a very low risk tolerance and uncertainty as to what to do. And so this kind of has resulted in a couple of things, one being that the buck is just passed to multilateral institutions like ACON.

I mean, I think China has done a very effective job of ensuring nothing happens in the international realm UM by pushing it to Ascion, which it knows is incapable of doing anything meaningful UM. And so it's just relegated to multilateral platforms where nothing will happen. You always have a veto from UM Highland Cambodia or Russia and China at the n S, at the Security Council, UM and so you know, it's these combinations of factors that really

challenge this thing. And even within the U. S. Government there's like a very robust inter agency debate about exactly what is the best form of assistance, what is the most ethical way of engaging and UM, what are risks associated with different forms of assistance to the resistance movement UM.

So I think that uncertainty plays a lot into it, and so UM a lot of what I think there's a lot of value that could be added if UM the resistance movement can come together essentially around a common set of requests from the international community, essentially saying this is what we need UM to be effective. And you know you, based on your risk tolerance, help us as

you can. But we're demonstrating to you that we have we're unified in these ways, we have these needs, and UM, you know, help us however you feel is most appropriate given your risk tolerance. So, I don't know, it's incredibly complicated. I think them having China, India, Bangladesh, Thailand and Laos as your neighbors also makes this just incredibly challenging. You can't access the country in the way that you can UM. For Ukraine. Um so just logistically it's incredibly challenging. Yeah,

that's true. Yeah, it does seem still like like you said, like it's like in Ukraine, we also have deeply problematic groups who we are, who we are arming, And yeah, it's it's ironic that their concern is spreading the preventing the proliferation in arms, and what they've done has helped like a giant leap forward in I don't know, artisanal homemade weapons technology, like we're probably only seeing the very tip of in like our porting, Like, I'm sure that's

more stuff that we'll see as time goes on. And but I wonder what can people do? People often ask like if where they can donate, how they can help, right, because obviously it is extremely difficult to see little kids getting shot in schools, and I want to do something, And I wonder what you would suggest for people who are looking to help. We've both spoken to people who are collecting money through click to donate, which is one

thing people can do. But um, do you want to explain that, actually explain how people can and can participate in click to donate. I think that's cool. Yeah, I

mean there's been a number of really fascinating fundraising models. UM. Yeah, the click to notitate model is essentially the resistance leveraging what it has UM a comparative advantage in which is huge numbers of people on their side, and essentially, um, the resistance creates creates web pages or YouTube content or anything, and you know, just engages the advertisements on those pages, which increa us is the value of those that ad space,

and then they can kind of generate revenue that way. Um. The National Unity government has also done some really fascinating stuff issuing bonds, uh, conducting a lottery, um, selling off you know, s a c military properties. I think they just sold the minile on Alnes House and Yangon for a considerable amount. Um. So it's kind of a an incredible fundraising model and requiring tremendous innovation. They also created uh a financial technology called and new g pay and

a digital current currency d mmk um. So yeah, it's it's kind of a remarkable um innovation there. Um. In terms of what kind of a uh your listeners could do, I think, um, you know, I think engaging in uh some of the international kind of advocacy and awareness raising is is really valuable I think some of these things like if you know, if you're a congress person acknowledges demand for this, then that can increase that the pressure that they put on the State Department, d D, Natural

Security Council, UM and potentially increase the risk tolemance of the US government if if there's just more pressure there. So those sorts of things I think, UM, honestly engaging with some of the content that's being that's being created by the resistance, learning about my mr um, you know,

just just following the story. I mean, it's like, I don't know, you've probably experienced this doing your reporting, but it's just like the most unbelievable stories of human resilience and just like, I don't know, it's it's such like an honor to be near by these people who are just risking so much for such a for such an honorable cause that they truly believe in. It's just like the quintessential example of integrity and um, yeah, goodness, yeah,

it's amazing. It's stuff you couldn't make up and like it's stories you can sell as fiction and almost like yeah, their integrity, like even they're like and one thing I find absolutely amazing like you said, perspectives on ethnic groups have changed on so many things that people they're willingness to be like, I've examined my stance on this and it was the wrong stance, and I'm changing my stance

on this. It's like we spoke to so many young people who were like, yeah, I was fairly misogynist, like a February one, and since then, like I fought alongside women, I've you know, I've seen them do things that I didn't. I've been told that they weren't capable of, and I've changed. I was wrong, and like we need to not be

a misogynist country going forward. Yeah, no, there was. I was maybe you know this group, but I was engaging with organization that was it's led by kind of an activist, former active um, and he was kind of saying that they've essentially tried to eliminate all of the sort of misogyny in their in their training protocols, like even just

using terms like man up or something. It's like wiped it from their approach because it's like that's a misogynistic kind of you know, approach to thinking about strength and power, and so it's like what you're saying is I'm here, I'm feeling the same hearing the same things. It's which is incredibly powerful given particularly given the pressures and what they're all going through, just having the wherewithal to kind of like their head ups and think about, you know,

be reflective of themselves. Like imagine in the American political discourse, people actually changing their minds for once. It's remarkable. Yeah, yeah, genuine is. And it's refreshing in that sense to see people like wanting the right thing and not letting tiny differences like blow them into severn thousand different pieces, right, the broad date grain on one thing. Yeah, exactly, And that's kind of the remarkable. I mean, the nation need

to consultative Counsel for example. You know, it's had its challenges um as a dialogue platform, but it's still going and that is like people are still coming to the table. And frankly, it's remarkable because repeatedly, in quote unquote peace processes in MR history, they've collapsed because you know, someone said something and you know another party left the table

um and didn't return. So the fact that these dialogues are continuing on is an incredible testament to people's willingness to kind of open up and be more humble and kind of consider the other's opinion and question their own, which is you know, a lesson we could all learn. Yeah, yeah, definitely, Billy, where can people like, where can people find you online? And where can they find more get information about my m um? I am you know, if you search Billy Ford at us I P dot org you can find

the stuff I've written recently. And then I'm on Twitter here at b I L L E the number four, the letter d UM and good sources of information. I mean, there's great UM investigative work by Myanmar Witness UM, which is just an incredible group of researchers. UM. There's been a couple of good reports recently by Global Witness and Earth Rights related to sanctions that just came out. UM U S I P. You can check out some of

our writing. My colleagues Jason Tower in Brasilo Clop just published something related to how the conflict has regional consequences that could be of interest UM and UM there's I don't know, there's innumerable great UM MEAMR think tanks. The Chin Human Rights Organization has done some incredible research and reporting about military atrocities and Chin State. Um could go on and on, but um yeah, if you I don't know, check out my Twitter. I've tend to repost stuff that

I find fascinating and there's there's a lot out there. Yeah. Great, Well, thank you so much for giving us some of your time this afternoon. Already appreciate it. It's good to catch up. Yeah, thanks for having me. James has been great, no worries. It could happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.