The Cult of Policing, Part 2

when we ended part one? Oh? Yeah? Like no, Well that's for the best, because anything that would change in about the thirty seconds between these episodes probably would not have been a positive change. You're letting the magic out. People are gonna know. Yeah, they should know already. Uh So the next thing you've got here in terms of characteristics that you saw inside the Police is the group has a polarized US versus them mentality, which may cause

conflict with the wider society. Um. Yeah, and I I think this is the one that like, yeah, we've all we all kind of saw that one. Are you sure about that one? I'm not convinced. Yeah, it was a Eureka moment, right, Yeah, Um, I do think it's probably worth a little bit of exploration about like what it means emotionally to be told like I want to defund or even abolish the police as a police officer, like

that's that's a um yeah, yeah. I remember the first time that I heard that, the concept of it when I was a cop. I think I was about five years away from getting out, um and it blew my mind. It was it was like, I'm like, you don't know, we don't have enough funding, Like how hell in the world? But we can't you our job because in you know, in our in my head, we're we're the thing holding

society up. If we're not here, everything falls apart and crumbles. Um. So the idea of being told like we need to defund the police for cops, it's it's an attack on your values and your role in the world. It's also attack on like your personal life because because your life is police as well, right and and and it's and

it's like you're you. You've been talking a lot about how the job becomes such a central part of your identity that it's not even just attacking like your paycheck, but it's attacking like your essence now as a person. It is It's like if you've ever had a debate with with an extremely like evangelical religious person, it's the same as trying to tell a cop like, hey, you don't actually hold society up. You're not exactly as important as you think you are. Um. And like I said, like,

we don't get we don't get paid very much. Health insurance usually isn't that good um our. Our unions that we told as being the best usually pretty corrupt um. And they don't really go to bat for us and get us the good health insurance and get us the good pay. They get us just enough. And so when a cop here's like, hey we defund the police, it's like from our perspective, we think what we're hearing is we don't appreciate you. We already think you get paid

too much. We we think of it less about like the structure of law enforcement, and we think it personally

of like oh you don't think my kids should have dinner? Yeah, And that's uh, I mean, yeah, of course that has like of course it ends the way that we saw it in you know, or at least it continues the way we saw it continue last year, right, And and it's I think it could help like people like us are on one side of the line, and you know the other people are on the other side of the line still, and I think it could help people on our side of the of the of the barricades to

understand just how willing these guys are to do things and things that they wouldn't normally do, things that you would never consider doing on your own, but for the job and as an order, they'll do it because again, it's part of their identity, and it's it's if you know you're attacking me, you're also attacking my family. You're you're It goes back to that grossman thing of being We told a lot of um, no matter what you do, you go home tonight. So no matter what I do

on my shift, I go home tonight. It's better to be judged by twelveth and carried by six. Yeah that one, Yeah, I'm thinking of like the police of the riot line, and yeah, you can see them being like middle aged conservative dudes, like look at all these like fucking like gay queer teenagers. Throws to fat me. Right, it's like the specific thing you're like, oh you you like I'm getting attacked by like the lowest of the low society. I'm being attacked by like did like degenerates and like

this weird kind of scum. I'm actually what society should be. The people that are fighting against me are like this weird anti social thing, right, That's that's how it is

from their perspective. Um when almost an actuality. I've been I've been slowly kind of appropriating that type of language for when I see a cop do something horrible, I'm like, wow, look at that, like anti social, violent freak, because you can look at that language because it flips the way we usually view like aesthetics when you know, because like when you see someone do something quotably horribly violent but they addressed in a uniform, it is it has the

appearance of being proper, but like, no, that actually still is anti social and extremely violent. So I think flip, I've been playing around with like flip flipping that language. But you can definitely see it on the cops faces when a whole bunch of like young queer as fun people are throwing water bottles at them. Oh yeah, you can't. And and the thing that the thing to remember about most cops is they're there their ego is paper thin their skin. They cannot take a joke, they cannot take

an insult. The the number of cops that I would see, and I would argue that I saw some of the worst worst behavior than on the streets, because because inside the jail, you're you know, you're in your own little world. You're inside these walls. The public can't see you unless you're on camera and pre body cameras. You know where all the cameras are. And I the the amount of guys that like an inmate would call them like the f slur or any other slur, and the cop would

just snap, we just lose their mind. And me and another couple other guys being the only kind of cops that would get in the guy's way and be like no. And it was never we couldn't say no, that's wrong, don't do that. It was always no, it's not worth it, or no, you're gonna get in trouble, or no, you

know if you do that, he wins man. Because if we said don't do that, it's wrong, we may have we may have stopped that bad thing from happening, but we have now marked ourselves as being, you know, potential apostates. Against the close. Um so yeah, that's yeah, calling them names works. Six and stones do break coops bones, Like, oh boy, it does work. Like in terms of if if the goal is make them extremely angry, yes it doesn't work. It's yeah, obviously. The next one you've got

is the leader. The leader is not accountable to any authorities, um, which the police regulate and investigate themselves. That's one of the most basic ones. But it does it kind of. It does lead to this, Like it is interesting to think about the way the Church of Scientology handles uh misbehavior from its agents and the way that, like a police department does. Because there's not a ton of daylight

betwixt the two. There's not listening to you the l Ron episodes, anyone who hasn't listened to them, go back and listen to them. They're fantastic, one of my favorites.

Um yeah, listening to that. And the way that they're a little internalized security system was structured was very very analog to exactly what happens law enforcement with their so called policing themselves b s. Because god, they don't, they'll do every little thing to manipulate the situation to have the cop come out on top and not be in trouble because who's gonna hold them responsible? That my own

guy at my own department's interviewing me. We've known each other since we were kids, or I've known his dad, or his dad's known me, or or he's you know, related or whatever. It never works when the you know, the watchmen are watching themselves. It doesn't work. I don't know how. We don't, well, I do know how, but I really wish there was if we do have to still have law enforcement civilian oversight with actual power, actual

authority to do. Yeah. That's that's the thing is that everywhere and a lot of the times that's been try to put into legislator, it doesn't. It's always like neutered. It's always like and like I've I've seen versions of it pop up in Portland and it just never does anything. Yeah, And that's I mean, obviously, the whole the question of is to what extent can increasing civilian oversight UH solve problems? To what extent is it like papering over them? Those

are all things worth discussing. Um. I think I want to kind of keep us focused on the mindset that that inflicates because that that's the thing that I don't think people get in part because like most people who are part of these abolitionous movements, most people who are are on the sides that we are on this um either probably don't know a police officer very well part and certainly almost most of them have not been police officers.

And I'm kind of wondering, what are you actually scared of doing as a police officer, Like what what what are you actually scared of in terms of like the blowback, the fault, Like what what is it you actually get worried about if it's not pissing off everyone else in

the city who wasn't a cop, you know. So Yeah, what it comes down to is, uh, you know that the the church of law, the Church of criminal justice, and what they're scared of is so if I get a dirty cop who's not blatantly doing something bad, like he just he hit a guy too art or something, it's something that hasn't hit the news yet. Um, but I have to morally, like ethically, on paper, I'm required

to have an I A division investigate these people. The reason that in my head, when I was there and being interviewed for these things, it's because you have to hold up the infallibility of the law. It doesn't matter what really happened. All that matters is what's in black and white on paper in our files. If we ever get audited by a federal body and we can say, look, a bad thing happened, Yes, we investigated it. Here's what

Here were the results. And it's all about holding up the infallibility of the law because if it really gets out and cops really get in trouble for stuff like some of the stuff that's been happening, where cops are actually being convicted finally for doing terrible things, it erodes the blind faith that the masses have in law enforcement.

Because I've heard people here in Utah, which is a very conservative place, look at some of those shootings that have happened where the cops have actually been found guilty, and they've actually been like, oh wow, like I never once thought a cop would do this, and it doesn't sound like much, but in their head, that's that's a

seed that's setting in their consciousness. And that's that's the whole point of the blue wall of silence and keeping everything in the house is if everybody realizes that We're just a little weird man behind a curtain. You know, the Wizard of Oz doesn't work anymore. We have to maintain this false image that we are infallible and we know we know exactly what we're doing, and we are taking care of you. You have to believe that, so they'll do anything to maintain the lie. Wow. Yeah, that

makes sense. It's bleak, but it makes sense. Yeah, it felt bleeping in there. This ties into kind of the the role of like lying, right, and and and the kind of the cult thing you're tying this into is that like colts will often talk about how the things the cult is doing are so important that you can do terrible things to achieve them. Right. You see this in the Church of Scientology and their dirty tricks programs.

Sent and On had its its version of this. Um and you you've written here we are taught to lie to get what we need. It's only true if it's on tape or written down. As long as it looks good, it is good. Um. And I uh mean, it made me, think, among other things, of a guy I used to know who became a local prosecutor um and eventually quit because he kept being assured by police officers that like something that they had put in like the charging document was true,

and then being unable to prove it in court. Um, and it it pissed him off after a period of time. Um, And I'm interested, like in the I'm sure like obviously some fraction of people doing it are just like just literally don't give a ship. But how does someone who actually does have a moral compass and believe in the law. How does someone who really believes justify lying to screw somebody over? Um, So asked the guy who was there, who had morals, which is why I'm not there anymore.

I couldn't. And I actually got in trouble on a couple of instances of everybody was going one way on a story and I was going in the opposite direction. And without using blatant terms, they use all the like the little you know, legal legal fuckory terms to not say what they're trying to say, but implying and getting it across to you of like you need to get on the same page, you need to tow the line, you need to you need to get in here. And

I could never do it. I just I don't know, that's just my moral fiber won't let me do that kind of thing. Um. I once was told by a lieutenant that I had my moral fiber was too high, Like he literally told me, because you can't expect everyone else to live up to your moral standards. And I'm like, dude, we're we're supposed to be like a little bit above the typical moral standard. We're supposed to be the example of how you know, our civilians, our citizens are supposed

to act. But it wasn't the truth. Yeah. I mean, my first I think kind of radicalizing thing very early on was just like the fake drug scandal in Dallas was realizing that like on a significant scale, uh, local police had been planting ship on people in order to charge them. People have gone to prison, which happens other places too, But like, yeah, um, and I'm sure the bulk of the work making something like that happen isn't

the people who are planting the fake drugs. The people who realize that the department will look bad if it gets out and then dedicate themselves to stopping it from getting out even beyond because you have you know, X number of people are willing to plant plant fake drugs on a guy. But a much larger number of people are willing to try to cover that up, so it's not a problem. That's that's the thing I really appreciate about, Alex.

You're framing of this in terms of like their main or not one of the main motivations is not, you know, actually doing the job itself. It's about it's about making sure that their reality and by extension, what they everyone else is a reality to be to stay the same like they all of the effort into whether that be lying for supposedly in their view, like moral reasons and all this kind of work. It's it's it's it's to

maintain the specific version of reality. It's not it's not actually for like like it's it's it's not for like actually promoting what is like the law on the books by any means. It's it's it's it's the it's the thing like in hot Fuzz, it's for the greater good. That's that's what that is. That is what they're trying

to That's what they're trying to do. So even if they like it's, as long as their reality is maintained, then you know, we have some semblance of like order in the world, whether that be you know, this nostalgic, semi like proto militaristic nationalist version of order. But that's that's that's the thing that wants to be maintained. So every every task, everything that they're doing isn't just a simple task. It's all in the overall effort of maintaining

this like this perception. Um. And and that's a a much more I think interesting way to think about police. Yeah, it really is. Uh, these guys in like in pill talk, these guys would take the blue pill in a heartbeat, and then they don't rest Morpheus for trying to deal drugs. Like that's how dedicated these guys are to staying inside this version of their reality. Now, um, I kind of let's move on next to um, the next kind of cult aspect, the leadership induces feelings of shame and or

guilt in order to influence and control members. And you're talking you've looten down here, toxic masculinity and the warrior mindset. Yeah. Um, do you have any kind of like case examples of how that that actually looks of like kind of using shame or guilt to people who aren't kind of in the this quote quote unquote warrior mindset. Ah yeah, I mean it happened a lot. Um. There was a lot of Monday night quarterbacking that would happen, especially with the

advent of like cameras and things becoming more popular. Uh I loved my body camera. That was my little best friend. But we would go you know, you go back and you'd watch videos of incidents and things, and if somebody wasn't like engaging fast enough, they would get roasted hard like haze and you know, made fun of and mocked it. And when you were in this, you know, we're a family mindset, and you're you know, were we got each

other's backs and we only understand each other. And then all of a sudden, you're on the outside because you dared to have even a remotely moderate to liberal position on anything, or you didn't jump in on the you know, the the ass beating on something. You fast enough, they turn on you fast. Like. The only thing I could compare it to is like you know, every eighties and like nineties military movie or or you know nerds movie where people just haze the ship out of each other,

and it's that that dude brow. Everyone's got a our wire sun tattoo on their bicep just rampant everywhere. I mean, it permeated the whole place. It drove me that that was one of the things that really drove me because I've never been that kind of guy. I've always been a a more of a a de escalation person and a book reader. And then I think it helps explain a lot why you see some of these videos where it's just like, why did they go to zero to

tend from zero to tend so fast? Well, because somebody's gonna make fun of them and call them names if they don't go hard enough, fast enough on somebody when they do certain things like and yeah, the zero to a hundred thing also ties into that whole, that whole hyper vigilance thing, that always being um a compressed spring. And then it ties back into that warrior mindset of like they tell you flat out like if anyone ever

attacks you, they're trying to kill you. It's it's there's there's no ifans or, but you need to act like they're trying to kill you, because it goes back to the whole I'm going home at the end of the shift kind of thing. And once once that's ingrained itself into like your muscle memory, and that becomes the reflex that becomes the thought that passes in front of your

mind when a critic incident happens. Then that's how you're gonna act, and you're gonna do, and you're gonna go from zero to a hundred because you're going to assume that any little furtive movement movement which god, there's that language, furtive movement, um, any little movement that someone makes, like that's that's a green light. That's an excuse that I can end whatever interaction I'm having with this person with violence because they flinched enough where I think, Okay, I

got this. Yeah Jesus. Now one of the next ones you have here is talking about recruitment, which obviously coult STU, but also like it's a job and jobs do this constantly recruiting. I'm kind of wondering because you've you've listed here things like Explorer programs which are like r OTC or the Boy Scouts kind of these different one of which Kyle Rittenhouse did like ways in which kind of people get onboarded. I'm wondering sort of what how you see how you see police recruitment as a kind of

different in a fundamentally cult your way. Then you know, every job has to bring in new people, right like, yeah, uh, it's it's it didn't used to be this way. But I think in the in the two thousands, especially when numbers, staffing numbers really started to drop because it's I don't know if they've just realized it wasn't worth it or they found somewhere better to get paid. But employment has gone down for law enforcement, and so recruitment goes up

in response. But now they have a more active role in most places where it's almost on part with the military. They'll go to job fairs, they go to high school career days. Um, they didn't used to do that stuff. And when they do, they'll they'll find someone to like pull stuff out of the pulp culture zeitgeist. What we know?

What cool? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. What can we what can we cash in on to try and draw these kids in, because just like the military, cops are looking to pull in disenfranchised kids who probably aren't going to go to college, don't think it's an option, And here's this job. All you need is a high school diploma, here's the health insurance.

Here's the tyrant package, which is trash. But you're seventeen, you don't know that, you don't know how to read all this, but it looks real goal yeah yeah, um yeah, yeah,

they explore stuff. I mean you're familiar with that. So but yeah, they get little kids to go out and you know, the little baby cops and it's I mean, it's it's one of those things, like some of this is so much deeper than even the the individual departments or any choice made by the police, because like, as a kid, some of the first toys I had were cop toys, right, like everything every boy, I think, like, yes, some of the first what you're gonna get badge a gun,

you're gonna play detective, You're gonna be watching cops shows, You're gonna be watching movies where cops are the and that's I mean that that's a bigger subject than today. But like, yeah, no, that is like the one of the most prevalent forms of media that's instilled in young

uh boys. I guess yeah. You know what else is instilled in young boys the love of capitalism and products and specifically and services find a child and whisper the names of our sponsor into their ears, preferably a child that's yours hopefully know any child, any child throw something so their parents look away and then leaned down and whisper better. Hell, you know, only counts if you get caught.

We're back. Um. And your next point was the group is preoccupied with making money, which is a huge thing for cults. Um, not all of them. There are some, like you know, there there are some cults that were shall we say pure, um, but they're nearly all about getting like hey man Manson just it was all about the music, and the Heaven's Gate was a pure cult. Yeah, yeah,

Heaven's Gate. It certainly wasn't just the money for Heaven's But yes, cops, cops have civil ascid forfeiture which they just took a hundred thousand dollars from someone in Dallas and the person did not get charged with anything, um, which is usually the case. Yeah. But um, but I mean yeah, like you have written here that like the main the main way is just increasing their budget as much as possible, which you have. Most police departments right

now have the biggest budget they've ever had. Um. Specifically in like main cities we have, they're they're the most funded department. Um in in for the whole city. There's there's this there's this great gag in the opening episode of a show called Ugly Americans that's about trying to

rere financialize the city's budget. And they have like a social spending and a cop budget, and they take like all of social spending and move it over and leave this one tiny sliver and they're like, oh, there, that's better. That will solve all the problems. Um it's it is a better sketch than what I explaining. It just like this sounds not funny, but the scotch is actually pretty good. Not far off, but yes, and and it is and it is relatively accurate in terms of just moving all

the funding from social programs over into law enforcement. Yeah. So there's uh, you know, there's everyone gets their financial different ways. There's county, there's stayed, there's there's city. But a common thing that would happen was, uh, law enforcement agencies would try to take anything that they could under the umbrella of law enforcement. So if it was like, hey, we want to have more you know, security equipment at the high school, and then the cops will be like,

no, no no, no, no, no, give us that money. We'll give you another another officer on campus. Or they want to hire something for the part, you know, and we want to install lights the city park to increase security. No no no, no, no, no no. You just give us that money. We'll make sure our guys patrol it more. Mm hmm. So they actively try to just like coach

money from everybody else. Yeah. I mean, and you you can see this in a lot of towns where like the number one use of public funds is the police. I mean, it's it's all over the country at this point. Um, yeah, that makes sense. Uh. So members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group related activities. Um yeah, because you have written here four years with no days off, but scored a satisfactor, I was told

to put in more time outside of work. Yeah. So, like I said, our emails were always sounds so much like MLM shit. It is it is they they every time you go in for an email, they neg you like no matter what are Our scoring system was one to ten. Um, nobody ever got higher than a six. Maybe. I think I saw like one or two sevens in my entire time there, And when I became a supervisor, I asked the brass I'm like, hey, I want to give this guy this this upper grade of like an

eight or nine. And he told me flatt because no, we don't do that, Like, no one's allowed to get higher this seven. And if you want a seven, you're gonna have to like write a novel about how great this person is to get them this rating. Um, it was just yeah, it was. It was consistently just pinning you down. The four years no dated off. So yeah, I did, uh four years straight without calling it sick once,

like I took vacations. But um, when I went in from I evail and he slides me a thing that says it says attendance satisfactory, And I was like, what are you talking about. I was like, I haven't taken a day a sick day in four years. You know, I have three kids. How do you think I managed that? Like I've sacrificed to be here that much. And his response was well like yeah, but I never see you at barbecues, I never see you at the union meetings.

I never see you at the fundraisers for the sheriff's reelection. Even though it's blatantly against policy and illegal to do. And I told him that. In his response was were you gonna do telling me who you're gonna tell Jesus? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I mean who are you going to tell that? Yeah? And it is. It's also just like this, It isolates you from a or people. It stops you from knowing

folks that aren't cops. And it's yeah, it's a lot like what your up line is gonna tell you if you're selling mary kay and that that that that ties into the that ties into the next point. UH members are encouraged or required to live and or socialize only with other group members. Um. And you say this is

like part of the hyper vigilance is isolation cycle. But I also see this in terms of like something I get into for fun is I join like a wife of cops um Facebook groups just because it's fast just to have all of just to have all of these like cops spouses in a Facebook group, And it's super Yeah, Like it's it's a really interesting like culture of like

just associating with other people on the job. You know, there's like cop barbecues like you mentioned, and all this kind of stuff where it's like we're the only ones that can understand you. So we're gonna build like this, like you know, force field around all of us and we can be together as a family and keep out everyone else because we're the ones that really know what's up. Um yeah, it seems uh. I mean for some people who are really into it, I guess that is, you know,

that's how humans socialize in some ways. So you know, for people who think being cops that are good and then quote unquote enjoy it, I'm sure they have a decent time hanging out with their cop buddies, right, Um, And I'm sure the cops spouse Facebook groups. I'm sure they have a good time laughing about whatever viral video there is of someone using too much force you know who,

who knows what? Like how how they actually think about those types of very isolated environments, because you know, it's it's about fend find you know, it's it's almost like it's it's extending out into like fandom rules where you're associating with other people the same way fandoms work, which

is very just very similar to how cults work. Um. So yeah, yeah, it's an armed militant fandom and your last point here, the most loyal members, the true believers field, there could be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be an often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave or even consider leaving the group. Yeah, so I put in the note of just self expectatory. But yeah, it's me.

Quitting was weird. I knew I needed to do it, but I I had a massive existential crisis of identity and of of logistical things, but a lot of it was it was tied to my identity, and it was it was letting go of something that was like a core pillar of my personality, and it really freaked me out. And I think that if I was more inside the group, and I was more like one of the guys, a golden boy or something like, I probably would have never left.

If I was, if I was getting that constant reinforcement of the good boy feelings, I don't think I would have quit. Um. But after I did quit, that actually kicked off a cascade of people around my same age and within my same seniority level in looking at their job and looking at what it was doing to them psychologically and physically and with their families and thinking to themselves, Oh, I can leave that. That is how cult How that

is how leaving cults work. Yeah. Yeah. And so once I left, a bunch of other guys were like, Oh, I don't have to do this until I'm fifty five. I can I can go start another career somewhere else, I can go start another retirement plan at a different place. And I just it felt great to see other people tear away and do that. But at the same time, I know for some of that it hurt mhm really bad to to leave that behind because once you're once

you are out. Um, you are kind of out. Even if you leave amicably like hey, I just want to go do something else with my life, you're no longer in those people's minds anymore because you're not part of the team, you're not in the club, you're not in the family anymore. You're that guy that used to be here. And I guess kind of at the conclusion of this and this is you know, when you when the question is like, how do you de radicalize, get people out of colts? How do you like No one has a

good answer to that. So I don't think we should expect you to suddenly have like here's how to here's how to convince everybody to stop doing this because we can't do that for fucking Q and on, like de radicalization of the people who say they're involved in it are fucking drifting like it's it's it's a big mess of a of a fucking field in the first place. But I am wondering, do you have some insights in the like, yeah, how then do we de radicalize these people? Uh?

Like I don't think there is Like I don't think there is a cookie cutter answer for like pulling people out. Um, you know, we can't bag them in a white vand and take them to a hotel. Uh. The only thing I can think of it would actually change the culture is a huge shift in our national culture around like mental health and toxic masculinity and you know, wrapping your identity into into your job because it's not just cops that it's it's it's it's like that is that is

America now? That is that is like hustle culture. That is what the idea of a career is. My name is blank and I am a blank. Like that career. Career comes from the word that means like careening, Like you are going full force into this thing. That is that is what you are doing now. That is your existence, is your career. You're going at it um. That is, that is what this whole country is built on. Uh So getting out of that for a lot of people,

for just regular jobs, it is difficult. Now adding on the idea that you are the thing that holds society together, that is that that has a whole other level of complexity like psych logically for the person inside it um because I'm sure like telemarketers, if you can get really into it and make money, sure that can be a career. But you know, you're not holding society together, and like that's not that's not that's not a delusion that you have.

And nobody outside there's there's there's there's no thin telemarketing line of supporting you. So it is it is different for like police specifically, even more so than like firefighters or like E. M. T. S Um. This particular fandom that's developed around police and and and like the the incredible self importance that they is that is cultivated um to Yeah, like the idea of I'm doing this to maintain reality is like a very like big thing to

tell yourself and get getting out of that seems uh challenging. Yeah, it really is. It's like it's almost it's almost worst than most like churches in a sense because in this version it's it's still materialized. It's it's yeah, it's it's it's right in front of you. I can reach out

and touch it because I'm part of society. But if I'm not here and we're not here, you know, anarchy the bad guy the way people think the word means you know, everything's gonna catch fire, and the only reason people are good to each other is because the law makes them be that way and all that kind of

toxic bs. So the only thing I can think of to be like to help de radicalize people is it's almost like treating someone in your family that listens to too much Q and on is to you know, if you know a cop or you have a friend that used to be a cop, and he ever like reaches out to you, maybe with like kid gloves, kind of be like, hey, how you doing just small things because that could maybe lead to him putting them putting something on their shelf, just like when people get out of

religions and things, they'll often reach out to people and be like, hey, this is this is such a fucking it kind of means something if he's going outside of the group, and so yeah, maybe recognize that, Like you have an opportunity. Yeah, if if a cop reaches out to you, it's just like someone in a religious institution. They're reaching out to you because they feel safe talking to you, because you're not going to turn them in. You're it's not gonna have any uh immediate impact on

their life right now. Yeah that makes sense. Um, all right, well, Alexander, anything else you wanted to get into. I mean I could talk about this kind of stuff for days and days and hours and hours, the whole hyper vigilance cycle, And like I said, I've read a bunch of books on it. I really tried to get training on just

the hyper vigilance cycle. Like, well, if you ask most cops about hyper vigilance, they would just look at you and be like, I don't even know what that means what you're talking about, which is why I used to I used to give this book, the Emotional Survival Bound for law Enforcement. I would I gave it to new hires, and some of those new hires didn't come back, and

I'm fine with that. Yeah that's good. Yeah. Some of them look at it and we're like, no, I'm not signing up for this because you you really don't know what you're signing up for the real stuff that you're signing up for until you're in it. Yeah yeah, I mean also like a cult um Yeah yeah, well all right, Uh Alexander, thank you so much for coming on and for sharing this with us. I think it's a useful look behind the curtain um that that folks need um.

And this has been it could happen here. You can find Garrison on the internet. Go go go track down Garrison's fake Facebook account. You know what goes do that you can't? You can? I I have I have made up possible specifically for this reason, a cop wife group with Harrison should be and Vanessa so we could discuss our husband's careers. Hey, for all you know, you may

cause the de radicalization of a cop. Yeah, or Garrison just gets really weirdly into role playing as the wife of Like EOD episode is over, we are done, this is I am pulling the plug. What could Happen Here is a production of cool zone Media. Well more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could happen here, updated

monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.