Also media.
Hi everyone, and welcome to the show.
It's meet James and I'm very lucky to be joined by Marianne today. He's an outspoken member of the Venezuelan diaspora, a writer, photographer, and we're gonna talk today a little bit about our shared frustration with the left in this country talking about Venezuelan people, but not two Venezuelan people.
So thanks for joining me.
Tonight, Thank you for having me.
Yeah, this is something that we've been trying to put together for a while, and I'm really glad that we're finally doing it. So I guess if I can just frame this discussion. We've spoken about this extensively, so like I'm sure we won't need much much prompting. I do not understand how people arrive at a position of identifying as being leftists if they don't love and care about other people, And if you love and care about other people,
then you should listen to them. And I am appalled at the discourse about Venezuela which is happening without Venezuelan voices.
For the most.
Part, where people will talk to Venezuelan's are all in the US press. It's far too often people in the diaspora who are talking to the right wing of media and highlighting like what are sometimes recent objections to madulas, sometimes which are completely insane, but it's it's a complete failing of us on the left to not talk to people from Venezuela. Maybe you could just share with us, like how it's been since January to see it offered
it as a binary right. You can either exist on the maduro and people can live in poverty and suffer, or you can watch your country get bombed and choose like mcm like and none of this is happening.
Was asking you what you would like, Can you like share how that's been.
Oh my god, it's been. It's been a wild ride.
I mean, there's a lot of different emotions going on, which is one of the things that I think a lot of people don't understand that are not Venezuelan. But yeah, just a lot of emotions. I mean, I remember when it first happened, I immediately messaged my family back home, so my brother, my mom, my grandparents. My family is not from Karaka, so they were all right. They were just saying, you know, it's calm where where we are, it's fine.
But yeah, the immediate thing was concerned. Then obviously I couldn't sleep that night because of everything that was going on. I live in Europe, so by that time, it was like, I don't know, it was like five in the morning or something, eight in the morning.
I don't remember.
It's all just a blur to me now, but I remember I was just like on my phone seeing the updates like every minute, trying to contact my friends who did live in Karakas, and they were just saying, yeah, like we hear bombs. We don't know what's going on. And then eventually, like some people started saying that they bombed liked some strategic military bases or like in Paracio Mira Flores, which is the presidential house, and so everyone was like all over the place, and then we got
all this information that they took Maduro whatever. And then at that point it was just like Okay, concern, worry, confusion, and then joy because not because the place was bombed by Americans, but because this guy was like taken away who he deserves.
Worse than prison, to be honest.
But then concern again because what are the Americans going to do now? So it was just a lot of different things going on. Like I think a lot of people, including myself, were just like paralyzed by all these different emotions, like joy because again, this guy who has done horrible things to the Venezuelan people is now paying for his crime somewhere, but at the same time, fear because of what is going to happen next. I mean, we're not dumb,
we know what the US is capable of. So it was a little bit of both of those feelings after we knew what had happened, and ever since then it has been just a struggle because of course there's a lot of misinformation going out there. It's been frustrating because I see many of my people's voices being silenced by people on the left. And then also you have a lot of people on the right like appropriating our narrative
to like push their own pro American propaganda whatever. So it's kind of just like everyone's trying to like appropriate or steal their own narrative and suffering for their own gain, and the left and the right are doing both like equally. Yeah, So it has been kind of frustrating because I mean, every time I even just try to leave a comment on Instagram or say something I'm called fascist, like Trump supporters,
Cia Masade agent whatever. And you know, it's frustrating to see so many people because most of the people I follow are like leftists, right, but I've unfollowed like seventy percent of the people I used to follow because they started posting like Promaduro stuff and talking about how he was so great whatever. And you know, it has been very defeating to feel like we don't have anywhere to go to nobody supporting us, because again, one side just wants to rob us from our resources and seal a
narrative to like push their own agenda. But then the other side is like completely denying or calling us like all these horrible things to also steal our narrative. Right, So it has been really frustrating and scary and isolating. Yeah, it has been a lot, to the point where I think, I mean, do I even have a place in the world of nobody wants to hear my voice? So it has been very difficult, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, very disheartening. But then yeah, like that's why I told you about
the baseball thing recently. It was kind of like a positive thing, like a because one of the good things about that game is that people were finally like getting to know us and how we're actually good people, and that was kind of like a pick me up after how horrible life has been since January third.
So yeah, yeah, yeah, like people obviously like undervalue spot I think they do. I wrote a book about sport and anti fact some kind of predispersed to this disposition. But like, these moments of joy are really important, and like the God knows the world tries to rob us of joy at the moment, so we should embrace them and enjoy them and not feel like we are like obliged to be sad because of all the sadness in
our worlds. Yeah, I think something you said there, like struck home with me are two things I guess let's address the first one. It is fundamentally a colonial impulse to steal someone's narrative and assume that they're incapable of speaking for themselves, so you must speak for them, right Like. That is something that I have seen not just now,
but for years about Venezuela. Right Like, it must have been really frustrating to see this kind of camp pissed tendency to to literally steal like the voice of Venezuelan people and speak on their behalf.
Yeah, that's nothing new though.
I mean I remember when I was in college it was kind of the same, Like there were I think it was like twenty seventeen, there were some protests and people were saying all sorts of things, and I remember losing a lot of my friends in college because of that, because I was saying, like, you know, it's more complicated than that, like you know, actually people do dislike this person for this, this and this reason. And yeah, I
remember losing a lot of friends because of that. Maybe not a mental breakdown, because it was just like a life, right.
Yeah.
I remember even at one point I went to like a cafe. It was one of these like calfes where people right on the walls and it said like fuck Venezuelans, and I was just like, what a fucking dystopia am I living in? And I also used to work at a front desk and this guy somehow found out that I was Venezuelan and he started saying like, oh, Madulu's the best, like whatever, and my boss had to come in and like take the guy away because he was just being really like rowdy.
Right, So yeah, it's calm.
Yeah, in fact of us, like when we introduce ourselves, like we don't say that we're Venezuelan immediately just because it.
Can be dangerous at times.
So yeah, especially now we have this combination of like we've discussed this, but like on the on the right, then it's when people are all perceived to be fucking members of trend Ragua now and then yeah it's that or you line up behind the regime. And even when those two things, like they're not as distinct as people you know sometimes in their imagination see them, or that they're also not as joint does other people in their
imagination see them. Yeah, it doesn't give you a place to express your identity, right, you just have to fit into someone else's box. Yeah, something else you said really struck me, Like there seems to be and again it's like it's not distinct from the colonial impulse, right, I think about the uplift civilized and Christianized or the white man's burden, or these notions of people who were subject to colonial violence being lesser than or incapable of, and like,
what are the things I see? It is like the idea that Venezuelan people are not aware of United States imperialism. I lived with Chilean's in Caracas in like the first decade of this century, right, Like, people were very extremely fucking aware. Like I lived with people who are being tortured because of because of United States imperialism. They've played me to have our records and then told me how they chopped his hands off.
Right, Like, Yeah, you're a person on the left.
You have an understanding of the world and world politics, and you've studied and traveled. But like there is a cultural understanding of this, right which does not require one to attend university. Can you explain how people because people are weighing on the one hand, we have this malordal regime which is killing people, which has imprisoning people, and which is acting as a fundamental constraint on our autonomy.
And on the other hand, we have the Americans dropping bombs, so we know what the Americans have done, Yeah to this part of the world. If you could just talk on that a little bit, explain how people live with that balance.
I think it's a combination of multiple things. So first, I mean, for many years, the government horribly mismanaged the country and then blamed the US for everything that went wrong.
I mean, there were moments in.
Which we knew and had proof that these problems were coming directly from the regime's actions, and yet so many times they simply lied about it and said that it was the US's fault, to the point where many of us were, you know, simply desensitized to the idea of US intervention. It's a case of the boy who cried a wolf, but in this case, it was the dictator who cried intervention.
Yeah.
Second of all, I mean, for many years now, every cent made from our country's resources have gone everywhere except to the people. Our resources have been going to other country let's say Russia and China, just to name a couple, and yet we, the Venezuelan people, have not seen a single scent of that. So at this point, we're used
to being exploited and we're used to being cheated. So when people in the US say, hey, the US only wants to steal your oil, or hey, like they're going to exploit your country, it's ignoring the fact that we have already been living through that very same thing for decades, and many believe that our material reality won't be affected
just because now it's someone else stealing our resources. If anything, people are willing to see if these new guys aka the US might do things differently now, whether that's right or not. What it really speaks to, I think is I guess my final point, which is that people are desperate. Every time a leftist says, oh, your life is about to get so much worse or so bad or whatever, they say that without knowing how bad things have already gotten.
I mean, I remember going to school during like the worst parts of the famine and seeing like a skeletal dead body lying on the street. Like that's an image I still have nightmares with. And I mean for a time, I remember someone I knew dying or being killed every single week.
The abuse and.
The torture we've endured at the hands of this regime. I mean, anyone can google, like what's going on in places like Elllikoire or La Pumba or any of the other torture centers in the country. I mean, people experience mock in real executions, getting electrocuted like by their genitals, rape, being forced to eat feces, and a whole list of
medieval sounding torture methods. And you know, people are truly desperate for a change, any change, And the fact is that the global campus left, or as me and my friends have begun calling them, the imperial left, has done nothing for us. They've given us no sustainable solution, and if anything, have completely sided with our pressors. So you know, if Trump comes and says I recognize this regime is bad and I'm going to do something about it, people
are going to take that. And this is what is so frustrating to me is that many of these leftists will go ahead and then criticize Venezuelan's for siding with their enemies. But what they don't see is that they have sided with ours. And at the end, all that does is make life even harder for us. We've gone so desperate that we've run directly into the hands of vultures because they're the only hands that we've been given.
I personally don't love what the US is doing to our country, but but I mean, I understand why many Venezuelans have reacted the way that they have, and this is how I can best explain it to those who don't understand it. It's sad, I know, it's very sad, and it's hard for people who haven't lived through this to wrap their heads around this level of despair. But it's the simple truth, and it's a hard truth that
I think many leftists need to hear and understand. And I say that as someone who is also saddened by this, because I want to see a more left leaning future, especially for my country. But I don't think it can happen if people don't start accepting realities like these.
The other thing that gets collapse Alte, I think is in Venezuelan opposition right. Like it is always amusing to see, like I myself communist, right and not a state communist anyway, And I've seen like the Venezuelan Communist Party and the Communist youth of Venezuela, Like they'll put out a thing being like we support opposition, and then you'll see people being like, oh no, we're communists, but like like American communists who don't speak Spanish, yeah, like like are engaging
with them. It's it's very funny to see that like in their mind all opposition in Venezuela is of the right wing, like MTM, yeah, tendenty right. Like there are many very valid reasons where people on the left will be opposed to what's happening. Does it feel particularly isolating to be of the left and at the same time have this constant assumption that to be an opposition you have to be of the right.
It feels isolating when it comes to dealing with non Venezuelans, But when it comes dealing with Venezuelans, not really. I mean pretty much all of my friends, I mean, as a queer artist, like, most of my friends are also like pretty left leaning. Yeah, you have different kinds of people on the left right, but but yeah, like when it comes to my Venezuelan friends, it is not isolating at all because precisely we already know what's going on. You know, we know that the that the opposition isn't
just like a right wing thing. Yeah, I don't know, it doesn't feel isolating because we know the political diversity that exists, right, Yeah, and so you just kind of have to find your tribe and it exists. Again, We're a country where people have all different sorts of opinions, and so you know, between my Venezuelan and friends, it seems pretty what's the opposite of isolating.
Yeah, like inclusive, I guess.
Yeah, when it's dealing with my non Venezuelan friends. That's when it gets isolating because there's just not an understanding, Like they just don't seem to understand, no matter how much I try to break it down to them or how much I try to explain to them. I have been successful and many of my good friends who are like leftists, most of them are anarchists. Yeah, but when I do try to explain it to them, they do seem to understand because they know who I am and they know that I'm not.
Like, you know, bullshitting them. But yeah, but again that doesn't mean.
Like I told you earlier, I have lost many, many friends and you know, have had to unfollow many people like I don't feel welcome in all like leftists or even queer spaces sometimes because of what I think, which is, you know, a free Venezuela isn't just free from imperialism but also free from dictatorship.
It's free from both.
Yeah, yeah, right right. I shouldn't be controversial.
But that is something that most of my Venezuelan friends like. They completely agree because it's similar to me. But my non Venezuelan friends or ex friends, as I should say, they just don't understand that at all.
So it's always interesting, Like, you know, I spent a good deal of time with Venezuelan people coming to the United States or who have recently arrived in the United States, and it's funny to see how people represent their operation to Maduro, like because at first I'll be like, oh, this guy's an American, so they're like, oh, it'd be great the Americans came to liberate us, and like, you know,
what a wonderful country. And then like once people begin to feel comfortable and safe with you and you talk more, everybody knows.
We don't have it all figured out either.
Everybody knows the history right like, and then people, yes, of course have a wide and varied range of things that they would love to see in Venezuela, but they are united behind seeing an end to dictatorship and yeah and stay violent.
Yeah no.
And I think that's honestly kind of like a beautiful thing where, you know, in spite of our differences, because I may have differences with other people who may be moderates or right wing or whatever, but we've all united a against this like bigger evil. And I think that's something that I wish actually the US could learn about right putting their differences aside to actually like tackle that bigger evil. I think that's something that US should learn
about us. How we've been able to do that. How you know, we can all say, you know, we may not agree on how certain things are done, but we all agree on what needs to be done, which is, you know, like getting rid of this regime, right.
So yeah, I.
Mean it's it's actually pretty pretty cool. And although it's not always easy because again, like you have, like in any country, we have all sorts of different opinions going on, it is really nice to see everyone united for one thing and one reason, and that's really the important thing. So so you know, I wish other countries could maybe learn a little bit about that too.
Yeah, left in this country could learn a lot from the way that, like a vast variety of left organizations in Venezuela have managed to unite with organizations that are more centrist or straight up on the right to achieve at least one goal, with the understanding that they still retain disagreements that are profound about other things.
Exactly.
That's something we can learn a lot from.
And like I'm always kind of in awe of the capacity for solidarity that I see, especially for Venezuelan people. And I think it comes from in part like decades of dictatorship and of hardship more generally, right, but like the continuous resolve that I've seen to get through it together rather than for each person to get their own
and sort of leave the rest behind. Yeah, it's remarkable, genuinely, like seeing again, like a lot of my experience I have not been in Karrakas for probably fifteen years, maybe longer, is seeing people in the diaspora and migrants, but like people who have grown so used to this state ironically failing to provide the basic necessities of life that they've
got used to just obtaining them and from each other. Like, even if those people are not anarchists, they're probably doing more mutual aid than people who spend a lot of their time being anarchists on the internet. Yeah, Like that's a beautiful thing that we should be in aura of rather than invalidating. It's so many people on the left ear and.
I think that's something that really starts with our own crisis, because I remember at the height of the famine, right, I mean, I'm speaking maybe like twenty thirteen fourteen around time, because by twenty seventeen when there was like another big like famine going on, I was not in Venezuela actually, but I remember when that was happening, like it was
very common. Like, hey, so in my backyard we had plantings and our neighbor had avocados, so you we would like exchange things somebody needed anything, like if somebody's grandmother needed like this medication that can only be found in like this one place in Karakas, like, but then I didn't have gas, but maybe like my cousin had gas
so that we could drive to Karakas, like. So that's kind of how it worked back there, Like we had that solidarity towards each other, and I think obviously if we go abroad, we're going to continue showing that same Yeah, I like that same attitude because it's just like part of who we are.
I guess, yeah, it just seems to be very much like part of the character of community. It's even like when I was there, you know, a decade before that, quite a decade maybe sometime before that. It's funny, I went to this place whereout having like a revolution, which was extremely grounded in state power and came out realizing that the state is not the vehicle for human liberation and the other people are just I just find this, this impulse on the left to invalidate and and like
therefore refuse to learned from Venezuelan people so frustrating. It's like a mild phrase, but like what can people do?
Right?
Like, we're in a situation now where we have like Maduro without Maduro rail, but we have Delcea doing like tweeting how much he likes Donald Trump all the time. We are at the worst of all possible outcomes. Really, right, we still have this apparatus for repression. But at the same time, the US is basically engaged in a colonial relationship of extraction of resources and anything else it wants from Venezuela. Like, how can people better be in solidarity instead of like trying.
To force you all into one box or another box?
If we assume most of our audiences in Europe or the United States, right, and they there haven't been big Like we're in solidarity with the Venezuelan anarchists or even the Venezuelan socialist or communists who are opposed to Maduro to Delci.
Now, for non Venezuelans, I think the key thing is to speak about the from a complete perspective, a whole perspective.
Because what's the issue. And I can tell you personally.
Sometimes I see, I don't know, like anti imperialists, you know, US get out of Venezuela protests, and I would love to join because I want the US out of my country.
But then I see them with pro Maduro.
Signs or just like free Maduro or you know, talking positively about the regime, and then I'm like, ugh, actually I'm not going to participate in that. Yeah, So you know you're actively excluding Venezuelan voices by doing these kinds of unilateral thing. And what do I mean by unilateral? So I understand that many let's say, Western non Venezuelans are speaking and looking at things from their own perspective, which is Trump is a bad guy.
He's not going to do anything positive.
We know the history of the US, and so they are from their own perspective, they see what their bad guy is doing, right right yea. From the Venezuelan perspective, we also see what our bad guy is doing. Like we're speaking up about this particular bad guy more than what we are about.
Trump, the other bad guy.
So it's kind of like we have two different perspectives here, and both are looking at their own right, And so the issue here is that those two perspectives are not combined, right.
So I would say the first thing you need to understand is that you know, I understand why you're looking at things from your own perspective, but you also have to include Venezuelan perspectives in your activism in order for them to actually be productive towards the Venezuelan people, right, Because when you say, you know Fremaduro and you know us get out of Venezuela, you're still not addressing the necessities of the Venezuelan people, right, which is we need to get out of the regime.
Sure, like one of those.
Necessities is the US getting the fuck out of there, but you're not addressing the main issue that has plagued us for the past thirty.
Years, right.
So when you're not doing that, and that's a dangerous thing about you know, conversations like that of Venezuela or Cuba or even Iran as well, when you speak about things from one specific perspective. When you omit one side, you're making it seem like the other side is better, when it should be abundantly clear that both the US and Maduda need to be out in order for Venezuela to actually be free.
Right.
So I think it's key, it is very necessary that when we have these like free Venezuela protests, it's not just the US, but it's also protesting.
The Madula regime, right because.
Otherwise what you're going to do is you're going to exclude many people who also want the US to back
off from your own protests, right. And if you know it's it gets even worse because I've seen Venezuelan activists actually getting you know, pushed out of conversations on Venezuela because they're talking about you know what I'm telling you right now, right, So they're talking about what the regime has done and maybe focusing on the regime well, also mentioning that the US should like, you know, they know US history, but they're focusing on the Venezuelan perspective because
as a Venezuelan, that's what you want to bring into the conversation, right, Like non Venezuelans can go ahead and add of that, you know, anti peerless part of the conversation or you know, perspective to the conversation. But they do need to make space for the Venezuelans who also need to speak out of the regime, right, So it needs to be a combination of both, and in your advocacy you have to include both at the same time always, because again, if you don't speak about one, then you're
sort of like portraying the other. One is like the good side, right, Yeah, And what that does is that continues to isolate Venezuelan's I mean, including myself, Like I said, I can't even go to a free Venezuela protest because I'm never gonna be, you know, next to somebody chanting Freema Duro.
Yeah.
So that's like the key thing that the leftist, like non Venezuelan leftists need to understand.
Yeah.
I think a lot about how people on the left for some reason, and this is particularly odd with the fact that we have lived through a genocide in Gaza for two and a half years. The people seem to only be able to understand solidarity with states and not
with people. And we have the Palestinians, right a stateless nation people seem to understand and that there to an extent right, albeit that for many people like Paalatsina's statehood is a solution to the problem, it just seems to be such a condemnation of the organizing or much of the left that people cannot This is my general frustration with the world, well one of them. They can't think outside of the state model. They cannot conceive of an
alternative that does not already exist. Yeah, even though there are movements outside of the state right, like the Kurdish struggling in the North Assyria for example, it's one but like I don't know, like we should be able to dream of a better world or a beautiful life, and it seems like so many people have forgotten that that's what being on the left is about. And they identify as revolutionaries, but they're extremely reactionary in their politics and
their goals. Like, Yeah, it must be so strange to come from. I don't know how old you were, when do you remember, like very early?
I remember parts of it. It's like a memory.
So I was born in ninety seven, So early Chevy Smoe was like a fever dream. I remember, you know, during like the and all that I would like go outside of like my apartments, like like go to my window. Like we used to live in a building and we would like take out pots in like cast roles and start basing and everyone. And then that was like my favorite part of the day because I as a kid, didn't really understand that it was a protest, but.
I loved banging on things. So I remember that. I remember like my.
Parents not being able to find certain things that maybe in the past they could find. I remember like at some points, like not being able to go to school because like there was something happening. It's like you're reallyving his own thing. But I remember thinking, I hope there's another cool so that I don't have to go to school tomorrow. Yeah, that's kind of like what I remember
of early Chevysmo. I also remember as well, sort of seeing the division, and that to me is like the biggest, most impactful memory, right, the division that existed so on
my family. I remember just for context, like part of my family, half of my family is like middle class and the other half of my family was working class, like you know, brown working class from the coasts, right, So shout out Tom so you know, it was like different realities, different necessities, and I remember both sides of the family arguing a lot, Like there was a lot of division, very similar to what's going on in the US right now in terms of division, right yeah, where
there were like heated arguments, people did not speak to each other, people hated each other because of you know, like part of my family was Chevysta, the other part was opposition or whatever like it was. That was one of the biggest things that I remember, was like half of my family hating the other half of my family
because they had different backgrounds and different political stances. So so yeah, that was a big thing, as well as the fanaticism, right that existed, especially rest does I mean remember my grandmother had like a poster of Chavis and like like a figurines and she dyed her hair red
because she supported the regime whatever. So so that's one of the things I remember the most, is my family, both sides like hating each other because of this is and it's something that I'm seeing in the US right now a lot, and I think it's operating in a very similar fashion.
Yeah, it does seem to be. And like did your family reconcile at some point. Oh, do you still have people who are like die hard?
No.
So for example, Mike mother that I told you about, Yeah, she says that she's still Chevy stuff, but she's not Maluis.
Yeah.
Yeah, I've had this done too. Yeah.
Yeah, it's just like, you know, she supports like what the revolution initially meant, but like she doesn't support Maduro, right.
Yeah.
Or for example, like her husband, my grandfather, he's just like, you know, this revolution was all bullshit. We thought that this was going to be good, but they ended up being absolute traders, like you know, they ended up not doing what they promised to do, right, So it was all just disappointment. And the other side of my family is just like chill, I don't know, like they were
just never Chuvy stuff. So that's kind of you are like strong environmentalists, so that's why they kind of hated Chavis because they were also doing some crazy shit in the Amazons. So it's kind of like they do all get along much better, right, So that's good, Yeah, I guess because like once I realized that actually this guy was not that good, right, But that particular side of
my family that was Chavista. That's how they think right now, or it's like either it was disappointment or that perspective of you know, I support Javis but not Maduo.
I've heard that from a lot of people, right, like what Javis wanted to make Venezuela better for us, and like if we just look at the ship he said, yeah, I want people to have enough to eat. I want them to have education, I want them to be able to go to the hospital. I want them to have safe houses, Like I want all those things too. They didn't get those things. But like I've heard a lot of people say that, like, well, yeah, we wanted it too, so we supported it, but it wasn't We didn't get that.
We got prisons and cops exactly. And like that.
Stunce seems to be entirely absent in any discussion of Venezuela, which is it's so common, like you just don't hear the like it's not like a left critique from other left stances. It's a left critique from the same place the chav Is more claimed to come from, and it's completely absent in our discourse. And like I can't, well,
it's because we don't talk to people from Venezuela. But there ye, yes, it's extremely frustrating, and I think like there's a lot that the United States can learn because we're already seeing large numbers of people being like, oh yeah, I've voted for Trump one, two, three times, and now something has alienated them, right, whether it's mass deportations, whether it's a war with a run, whether it's the economy being shit, whatever it is, Like, we need.
To learn how to.
Allow people to change their minds or.
Like to get better.
Like the Venezuelan opposition wouldn't be what it was if they said anybody who supported Chabas.
At any point can fuck off, we don't want you, right, Like, yeah, it's it wouldn't work. I would function.
And I think if we would listen to people, there's so much that we could learn from that, but we seemed so locked in on talking down to them instead.
Yeah, I mean exactly, That's what I mean by like it reminds me of that like division.
You know, it's almost like right, like people are foaming.
At the mouth, Like that's kind of like the level of division that I remember growing up. And to be honest, a lot of what's going on in the US is eerily similar to what I grew up seeing. I think both Trump and Chivas are very similar kinds of people.
And you know, I used to live in the US. Now I live in Europe.
But that's one of the reasons I decided to leave, because I saw many similarities to what happened in my country.
And I decided to.
Just Skidadle as soon as like, because I sort of knew where it was all going.
But I knew where it was all.
Going because of what I already lived through. There was actually one more thing that I'm thinking about it that it didn't get a chance, But you mentioned Palestine. I think it's really interesting because the school that I went to, actually, Venezuela, has a really big population of Middle Eastern people, among
them Palestinians. There was a Palestine club in my hometown, and I remember during was it like twenty twelve, twenty fourteen, Again this was years ago, but twenty twelve maybe twenty fourteen, at some point there were protests la Huadimbus if you know them, during Lazwadimbas, there were protests for Venezuela whatever.
And I remember that I had.
Many Palestinian like Palestinian Venezuelan classmates, and they were protesting both, right, So they had Palestinian flags and they had Venezuelan flags and they were pro testing for both peoples.
So yeah, you know, that's like.
An example whenever people say like try to divide and you know say like, oh, like the Maludu is like pro Palestine, whatever. I think of my friends in school where they were like, no, actually, we're Palestinian Venezuelans and
we don't like what's going on in either place. So because we do have a very big Middle Eastern population, again, many Palestinians, many Lebanese people who are not unaware of what has been going on in the Middle East, right, So that's also something to be added to the conversation, is you know when we talk about these things like they're not isolated, and precisely because we're not isolated, that's why we should, like you said, like be more in support of the people rather than the states.
Right.
Yeah, I want to bring up like.
That little bit of like that little memory that I had because I just remember the image of it, of my friends doing that.
So yeah, it's very similar, sense, I guessed, like I think a lot about how the Assad regime used Palestinian people right, Like it would constantly talk about fucking solidarity with Palestine, and it had all these tanks and all these guns and all these planes and bombs, and it turned them all on its own people. It didn't use its state power to liberate Palestine. It would have been destroyed by the idea that it did, I imagine. But it used it to state power to kill its own people.
It is so frustrating that we saw that happen and the world still allows people to tokenize the Palestinian people right and to use them as a shield against the oppression of their own people. I think a lot of people will be thinking or listening and being like, well, I haven't really heard from Venezuelan voices, or they might not know any people from Venezuela.
Where can people.
Do more to listen if they want to as they approach this issue in so much as people stead approaching it because half the US media has forgotten about, then Isulla already?
Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot going on, for sure.
Yeah, but.
I want to say, like this might be a little bit annoying, but learn Spanish, right if you're going to act it for a specific group of people. At least learn the language, you know, so that you actually know what people are talking about.
Right.
Not everybody speaks English. Not everybody's gonna speak your language. So if you're actually gonna take advocacy for Venezuelas seriously, then you should learn the language straight up so that you it's easier for you to get into these conversations. See what local activists are saying, see what the news are saying, like see even what our leaders are saying.
Right. So, I think that's one of the first things. I think. Another thing, I mean, there are.
Some like English language Instagram accounts or like posting things, Yeah, but I think the biggest thing is to be for the people.
And what do I mean by that?
Everyone wants to claim that they are for the people, but very few people actually are for the people.
Right.
So what happens is they might hear like, I don't know, a Venezuela in person saying, oh, thank you USA for taking out maluro, do whatever you want.
Whatever. They might hear like the typical magrasolanos, you know, and you might hear all of these perspectives that are really coming from not a place of them being fascist or whatever, but coming from a trauma.
So I think that if you want to inform yourself, you need to develop the ability to think critically about what's going on and be able to understand who are these people and why do they have this perspective? Right, So they have this perspective not because they were slave owners back in Venezuela, not because they're white, some of them are not white. It's not because they are like pro fascism or they necessarily love the US, right, but it's coming from a place of trauma.
And why do they have that trauma?
Well, they have that trauma because all of the abuses that were committed, like to the Venezuelan people, were on behalf of this quote unquote socialism, right, So yeah, they were committed in the name of the left whatever. So that's why all of a sudden they claim to be very right wing, although if you speak to them, you might ask them, well, what do you want to see in your country? And you're like, well, this doesn't sound
very pro capitalism to me. But I guess the ability to understand these people instead of calling them like CIA agents, fascists, like they're stupid, they're idiots, don't listen to them. The diasporas just full of like massad agents whatever you want to call them. Right, Like I've seen every soul in the book, Like any excuse in the book, like to.
Not listen to these people.
Yeah, but I think this is to listen to these people and try to understand and again think critically. Okay, well, I understand that maybe what they are saying is not necessarily great, because I also understand that the US, you know, has done this, this and this, and that they are coming from a place of trauma that perhaps they do know what the US is history. But again, they're just desperate. But let's get to the bottom of this. What is their root concern the crisis in Venezuela. Right, So why
do they have all these like crazy ideas? Why are they so crazy? So because of everything that they've endured in Venezuela. So don't try to focus on like the shallow part of it all, like try to go to the deeper end and that way you will truly understand what is going on.
Right.
Not to ignore these people or just like dismiss them as a b or C or like a CIA fascist whatever.
They're not fascists. They're just people who are.
Traumatized, and it's really important for you to understand their trauma in order to address the issues that actually concern them and actually have communication with these people and include them in your advocacy, and who knows, maybe you'll be able to convert some to your side to right, which I think that's been one of the most critical mistakes that many people on the left have made, is that you know, we have all these Venezuelans who again claim to be right wing.
And I'll get to a second.
Why say they claim to be but they claim to be right wing, And again it's not just because of
them a maludula and Chavist regime. It's not just because all of the abuse is committed to them were in the name of socialism, but it is also because the international left has reacted so negatively towards our cause that you know, many Venezuelans decided to say, hey, you know what, I'm right wing or I'm a moderate, or you know what, I love the US now because all the people who are anti West are pro the regime that is killing my people, right right, So what's what that is doing
is like actually pushing these people even further when you call you know, these like magasolaos, because when you call them like ashes or whatever or Cia, you're just pushing them even further. And at the end that sucks like for us, because then we're going to be the ones we're going to be politically confused, and God knows that's going to lead us to some crazy places, right.
Yeah.
So I think the first thing is actually having empathy towards people and using your ability to think critically and hearing people out who maybe you were told not to listen to, and thinking, Okay, well I don't agree with what you're saying on the surface, but I understand what
your roote concern is. Therefore, I think we should talk about this and I can understand that in order to inform myself what is truly happening to these people that are making them believe these crazy things like Trump is fave us, right, Yeah.
I think that's like really important to remember that you might come a question of it as well, and who might be advocating for oh, someone from Iran or someone from one of these other places who might be like
advocating for intervention. Yeah, and like it's really important not to be like, Okay, this person goes in the Maga box for me, because like there are Venezuelan people who are going to go in that box, right, But like we have a good deal of people who like they're obviously not going to be opposed to migration, and they themselves and migrants exactly. That doesn't always apply. That's the famous video of the Turkish guy complaining about migrants as he enters the United States.
Like, oh, yeah, I mean, of course, I get you're trying to say.
Yeah, yeah, like there are people whose views on like the world and the way it should be might not be that different from yours, and like we only find out by engaging with each other in good faith and like as people, not as tropes. Yeah, but which I think is in a huge part of the problem. I do think the language barrier is an issue. So many people on the left want to talk about places, not talk to the people, and can't. Yeah, then we only see a small subset of discourse translated into English.
Yeah, I mean that's kind of what I mean by like, you know, everyone wants to be for the people, but very few people actually are because being for the people takes a lot of effort, because you need to learn languages, you need to visit places, you need to talk to
people who you might on the surface disagree with. You might have to think about what they tell you in order to come to a conclusion yourself about what's actually going on and how you can actually support these people while not compromising your own beliefs and your own knowledge and experiences.
Right, So that takes fun work.
So that's what I meant by that, Like, very few for the people in that sense where they engage and actually go and try to talk to us. And I think that's the best way of being informed of any issue, is just talking to the people.
But it takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of work.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, But that's what solidarity is like, it's de putting in the work to take care of each
other exactly. It's been a failure of the non piss left that we have not done more, we have not reached out to more people in Venezuela, that we've not like used our platforms, that we've not shared their voices, that we haven't done more to push back on this idea that like the only options for Venezuela are neoliberal on their imperialism, or maybe neoliberalism is what we're doing anymore, but American imperialism or like this anti imperialism of idiots.
Is there anything you'd like to plug?
Do you like people to find you on the internet or some other stuff you'd like to direct people to. Maybe they can call you a mossad or cia or whatever.
Yeah, you can find me on my Instagram account.
It's et M dot a r I N Okay, so just like my name deconstructing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can send it to you later.
Yeah, trying to think of like.
What else to say, but I mean, yeah, like going back a little bit. Just wanted to clarify this because I brought up a few times. But what I was saying, you know, like looking at these Magasolanos and what I mean by like their quote unquote right, they're not actually right wing, like if you speak to them. And there's a really good video that this guy made but it's
in Spanish talking about this. But what I mean is many people who are Magasolanos, You ask them what do you want to see in Venezuela, and what they want is affordable housing, affordable healthcare, clean water, proper environmental policies. They don't want any more abuses committed to the indigenous communities, particular those in the Araco Mineroinoco. So you ask these people what they want, and this is what they want.
Right.
So when they just say that their right wing, they say that their right wing simply because they are traumatized from, you know, this apparently socialist regime which was anything but people on the left sort of you know, just supporting that regime and isolating them and treating them like absolute crap. So they're traumatized by both of those things, and that's why they claim to be in this position. But if you actually talk to them, that is not the case.
Keep that in mind, because it's funny to me when many people say, oh, you guys just believe propaganda. That's why you're pro Trump, and that's why your right wing because you consumed the CIA propaganda. You guys are blinded by propaganda, when in reality, what that doing is that is taking away the accountability that many on the left should maybe, you know, maybe think about, because it hasn't just been CIA propaganda, like it's also just leftists acting
like assholes. Like that's something that has also pushed many Venezuelans away from the Left.
It's not just the CIA spreading propaganda.
It's also that the Left has acted horribly with Venezuelans, and that has also pushed people away. And I think if we're able to solve that issue, If I think if the Left is able to see Venezuelans as human beings and to have a different approach, such as you know, with you know what we've talked about earlier, I think we're going to be able to have a better conversation and have a better relationship between these two communities and actually get somewhere productive.
But I just wanted to bring that up because I.
Am so tired of seeing people saying it's all CIA propaganda and not really thinking, well, actually, we have also done some pretty bad things and that's why these people kind of have taken a dislike to us. So yeah, I think I think that's pretty much it. Like, in conclusion, just here hear us out. We're human and we're not the perfect victims. We we're not a monolith. We were human, Yes, so we should be spoken to his humans and thought about as humans, not as some chess piece in this
political game. Just include us into the conversation. I think is the most important thing anyone listening to this should take away.
Yeah, I think it's a really good place. Dan, thank you so much for sharing some of that time with us.
No, thank you so much for giving me the space to talk.
I mean, it's very necessary, as you might imagine, for our voices to be heard and be put out there. Because I'm lucky enough to be multi lingual, I try to do my best and speak in other languages so other people understand what's going on in our minds and in our communities. So I am very grateful that you're able to have me here and to actually listen. It's not something many people do, so I really do valuate great.
Thank you great.
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