Hi everyone.
It's me James today and I'm joined by Glen Pyle, who's a professor of molecular cardiology and a member of the IMPART Network at Dalhousie Medicine.
Glenn, thank you so much for joining us.
Can you is there is there anything I missed out first of all in your bio there that might be relevant for people.
No, I think that's a short and sweet I don't need all the details for.
Sure, Thank you.
Yeah.
So, what we're here to talk about today is these sudden the phenomenal I suppose of sudden cardiac arrest specifically like in young people and young athletes, because as many of you will have been aware, this has been increasingly an area in which anti vaxxers and conspiracy theorists have been trying to leverage what is an unfortunate but not unprecedented cardiac arrest, like in this case, most recently Bronnie James, but it has happened before in the number of sports,
and they've been trying to leverage us as of quote unquote like prove for evidence that the vaccines are killing otherwise healthy young people, which is nonsense. And I can tell you it's nonsense. But someone who can tell you from much more informed perspective is Glenn. So Glenn, can we start out by maybe talking about like how common this sudden cardiac arrest in young athletes is and what we might what hypothetes we might have to what caused it.
Well, I mean, first of all, we look more broadly, it's very common. I'm from Canada and we have about thirty five thousand of these every year within young athletes. The data out of the US says that about two thousand die every year from sudden cardiac arrest, and two thirds of these young people do so during some sort of exercise or sporting event. So in the grand scheme of things, when you have a country of several hundred million people, a thousand or so that's like that is
but proportion relatively small. But we've known about this for a long time and these numbers actually really haven't changed very much in decades.
Okay, So yeah, there's obviously been a particularly increase due to COVID vaccinations, because they're unrelated. I wonder actually it's evidence. I think I've read some stuff that having COVID or having had COVID multiple times might increase your risk for cardiac arrest.
Is that true?
Yeah, so broadly, So they haven't looked specifically at cardiac arrests because cardiac arrests typically is in a lot of times the end result of a number of different conditions of cardiac arrhythmias are known to be increased. A patone
study showed that. But I guess the year and a half ago by now, certainly early in the pandemic, one of the first signs we were seeing people who are being infected were having heart attacks, developing heart failure, these things, and in cardiac arrest the most common cause or cardiac are with Yes, the tone study showed And every time I talk about this, I have to go back and look because the increase was several hundredfold after COVID, and so I have never really seen anything like that before.
So arrhythmias are relatively common in terms in the world of cardiovascular disease, and the fact that COVID the infection, actually increases it. But the vaccines do not means that the risk for some cardiac death really would be highest amongst those who are infected, not those who get vaccines.
Okay, do you know offhand if like when we have that maybe this was too early in the pandemic to tell like that that risk that comes with having COVID right for having rhythmia afterwards, is that risk mitigated by if you're vaccinated and then you get COVID.
So yes, there's been some more recent studies because obviously early in the pandemic, when we didn't have the vaccines, we couldn't answer that. And then early after vaccines were looking at things like infections, and some of these cardiac issues may not arise until even after the infection is clear. So we see that in people with long COVID, for example,
krdiac issues are most common. And so we've seen in some recent studies that people who are didn't even what they described as partially vaccinated, so one or two doses, had a reduced risk of what we call MACE, which is a major adverse cardiovascular event. And so that's an all encompassing term, which would be things like stroke, heart attack, you know, things things like that, those major cardiac events. That's data has come out earlier this year, within the last year, a couple of studies.
Okay, so circling back to those cardiac arrests and I guess wrote more broadly at cardiac issues in young people and fitting young athletes. It's something I'm familiar with with a background in cycling. Like I've known people die of cardiac arrests who otherwise extremely fit. No, I wouldn't necessarily say like sometimes being fit and being healthy are not the same thing. Certainly the very like point to end
of indurance sport. I think the fittest people are not necessarily the healthiest, but very fit sometimes very healthy people have friends of mine have had these issues. Is in those cases we might not know? I don't know is being an athlete like increasing someone's chance of having those cardiac arrests or is it that they have some kind of pre existing condition that's just that's just been underlying for a while.
Yeah, that's a good question. What we do know in this This is all data from pre COVID, so it's not something that's been impacted by the panamic or vaccines. We do know that the rate of sudden cardiac death and the general population is about one in one hundred thousand, and that in athletes, which is a very broad term,
and we can get into that. How to we do find an athlete and things like that is anywhere from two to four times the rate that that's groups of athletes subsections are actually higher, so we know the radius higher in these athletes, typically these high performance athletes. You know why that is, It's an interesting question. It could be the training, for example, puts a stressor on them. So they may have a pre existing condition. They may have a cardiac orithm of like long QT syndrome or
even something called hypertrophic cardiomopathy. Sometimes they know about it and sometimes they don't, and then the training on top is enough of a trigger. So one of the examples I use in my class is Anthony Evenlows, a soccer player. I believe it was in the Netherlands. He was playing. He had a known cardiovascular condition, so he had what's called it ICD or on planet cardiodefibrillator while he was playing, and he suffered some cardiac death on the on the field.
There's actually video of it, and that shocked him back into rhythm. So you know, some of these people may not know and discover in the course of training, and some may know and opt to take that risk anyway, and then it's the training that or the competition that brings it out.
Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.
I have a very good friend with ICD and it's certainly been at the end of a very difficult process for him to have that, and that involved lots of lifestyle changes. And so when we let's what exactly is an athlete in these studies, like, is that somebody goes to gym twice a week? Is it someone putting in twenty hours on the bike, like what?
So, most of the studies that we're talking about, so I assume we're not talking about the people who are claiming that the vaccines are to athletes because they have a very different definition. I can talk about that most of these studies that we're dealing with, where we get these rates that are two to four times higher than the general population or what they refer to as competitive athletes. So for people in the US, these would be your
NCAAA or college athletes. Some of them are professional athletes, you know, soccer players and the you know, the British League and things like that. So these are people who play at a at a competitive level. Oftentimes they're they're making a living. I mean, you can argue whether college athletes are making a living out of this, but there's
there's some high level of competition in these athletes. That's generally the people that were that these studies are based on, not the guy who goes to the gym twice a week or something like that.
Okay, yeah, yeah, so fairly elite.
And what is it that you were saying that's different from the claims that these anti vax people or vaccine skeptics or whatever, you know, people who want to say that vaccines are getting people which isn't true. What sort of the definition that they're using or what's the claim that they're making.
I guess, well, they really don't have a definition, is the problem. So they'll use the term athletes. And I think most people, you know, maybe maybe you don't see an athlete as necessarily being a college or professional level. It could be like a high school athlete who's competing you know, once or twice a week or whatever. And that's that's fair. But when you look at the lists that they have, I mean, I've talked about this recently and the Died Suddenly movie documentary, whatever you want to
call it. The list of people that they have on there. For example, they have musicians, they have a Thai princess on the princess from Thailand on there, and they also have people who died of cancer, someone who got an eye injury. So I'm not really sure, first of all, what their definition of athlete is. I'm not sure what their definition of sudden cardiac death is. When you have people dying of cancer or suffering an eye injury like that, those are not related at all. There was an earlier list.
I think it's related to the Good Sciencing. I wrote about this probably a year or so ago. I went through the list of people that they had on at the time. There was about one hundred, just a little over one hundred people that they claimed and died. There were soccer referees on there. There were retired athletes, there were people. One guy was out for a hike he was listed there. Now, you could argue a soccer referee is athletic, certainly, you know, running around the pitch and
doing that. I could see that. But that person died at home in their sleep, not in competition. The retired soccer player had been retired for six or seven years. So even in the cases where they have athletes, they're really stretching what we would define as an athlete.
Right, Yeah, I wonder is it data to show that, like overall mortality is lower in people who are vaccinated than unvaccinated, Like that exists yet?
Yeah, so that's what some of these studies that I talked about that were done earlier this this year, there was a it was a Jack study the journal American College of Cardiology showed that even people who are partially vaccinated, there's a reduction in these cardivocular complications. And the Gama study which was done earlier specifically focused on am I. So the heart attacks at cute my cardinal functions and stroke also lower risk.
You were saying earlier that there might be some sports that that had even higher rates than those those ones you mentioned overall for athletes.
What sport to those?
Yeah, so the one that's bit'sman raised recently is basketball. They were at least in some of these studies done in the US, much higher than other sports. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, basketball is can be an aerobic event and that you're running back and forth, you know, up and down the court quite frequently, but it's punctuated by these bursts of of you know, sprints and things like that, which some have speculated that might kind of be the issue, right, that you don't settle into just
a simple rhythm. I'll say simple rhythm, like you know, like riding a bike is. It's not it's obviously simple as as you describe it, but at least potentially there there's periods of time when you can sort of get into a rhythm and stay there. And here it's it's rest periods punctuated by these rapid bursts. And so there's the possibility that that may be related.
There, okay, and so that that might be why that there are higher death rates to there.
It's possible. Yeah, they're not sure why these things happen to specific.
Sports, Okay.
Our our friends in the anti vax community show in their own minds why these happened, Like do they have some kind of hypothesis they're advancing.
Uh no, So that's a good point. They'll say it's the spike protein. I'm sure I've heard that race before, but they don't really explain beyond that. It's interesting about the spike protein in the vaccines, as it's been modified to not be active, and so you have the spike protein in the virus which causes injury and yet they don't seem to, you know, acknowledge that that could cause
these these issues. And yet the spike protein in the vaccine, which has been designed to limit that injury, somehow overcomes that and actually causes the injury that's not associated with the the infect like, like not that it makes sense, right, You have to work live in these parallel worlds that don't don't ever.
Mix, right, Yeah, so they yeah, they're suggesting that this protein, which is a modified version of the one that's already in the virus but it's non harmful with one of the virus, is harmful. It's because of the modification.
Yeah, Certainly a good number of people who don't like the vaccines also claim that covid itself is really not much of a threat. And then so again I don't, I don't. I don't see how they can reconcile these these points, right, especially when you're arguing about the same protein, one of which has been modified to be less active, and yet you're saying the less active one is actually more dangerous than it Just doesn't make.
Any sense, right, Yeah, And I think it's kind of
not Uh. People may be come to it with with a sort of predetermined desire to conclude that the vaccine is dangerous, and I wonder, like I'm familiar with exerting cardiac death from my time cycling, and I remember in the early two thousands, there was this idea that people were dying because their blood had turned like quote I'm quoting from like newspaper articles at the time, too treacle and had become so thick that their heart couldn't pump it anymore, and that this was causing people to die,
and the reason that they died was because they were taking excessive amounts of blood boosters like EPO or exog a CPO, and so I this wasn't true, at least to my knowledge. I don't think any of these people had tested positive. None of them had like autopsies that
suggested that this is why they had died. But it seems to me that there's this natural desire to try and explain away these deaths of what people who are at the peak of their physical lives right people in their in their teens and twenties, are extremely fit, who we can see doing amazing things, and doesn't sort of
line up for us when they die. It doesn't end up with what we think a healthy person is, and what we think a cardiac patient is, and and and so it seems to me that we create these explanations. Is that something you've seen in other areas before the COVID vaccine without either sort of conspiracies or just ways to try and explain this away.
I don't know about conspiracy. I mean I think people understandably have a hard time reconciling what you just said. Right, you have belite cyclists or whatever sport it is. I mean, cycling is good because aerobically they have to be very fit, and then they die potentially of a cardiac condition. Right, So that makes no sense, you know. So the easiest thing, like you said, is to well, they must be doping, they must be taking steroids and you know, something that's
going to harm your body. And so that has to be the explanation because it's it's it's easy. That's a simple way to get to this. The reality is that a good number of these people have underlying cardiac conditions. Not again, I don't necessarily mean a lot of cyclists have that. What I mean is the people who have these sudden cardiac deaths have undiagnosed cardiac conditions long QT. There's a condition called CPVT, you know, something like that,
and so they're relatively i'll say benign. CPVT isn't necessarily but it's triggered. These things are triggered by stressful events like exercise and things like that. And so they may live a good part of their life in it to be in our seemingly in good health, and then the first sign for any of these people is death. That's the real challenge in dealing with with these these cases that lead to ser cardiac death, because that's the first symptom.
People don't feel tired, they don't you know, have chest pains like having a heart attack or anything like that. It's simply something happens. The wiring goes off in the heart and you put the exercise on top of it, and they die. You know, it's not just these athletes. You'll have somebody who has a change in one of their genes. They're perfectly fine. Do they live into their sixties and then they suddenly die. Well, what allowed them to live sixty years with you know, no symptoms. We
don't really know. But it's not uncommon that the first symptom is death and these people. So your friends there who you know, it's it's easiest to accuse them of doping because certainly we a lot of us talked about it at the time, as I'm sure you know you knew about it. There's no secret. So we connect those dots, right, we can see that, we can see that, let's connect them. We can't let's see long QT. So we don't know
what long QT syndrome is. For a lot of people, it's hard to make that connection when you don't know.
Yeah, and it's hard from the perspective of being Simone's friend or I can only imagine what it's like for their families to have this, Like I guess them be sort of liblef do they die, you know, or sort of a cue of something that they may in many cases I don't think did do It must be very difficult to deal with that on top of losing someone you love.
Yeah. Well, and we're seeing that again here with the people who oppose the vaccines, which is either they're assuming things or they're speculating on things. And you know, unless you're in the circle of care, you don't know what's what's going on. So you know, you talked about Lebron James on here. You know, does he have an ununderlying condition? We don't know, and it you know, it's it's really not helpful for me to sit here and say, well, he could have long QT, he could have CpG bet
like here, you know, to speculate like like that. I can talk about what are some things that lead to these these conditions generally in people, But I don't know anything about his health, and so it's not helpful for me to sit here and speculate on that while his family and then he himself is trying to you know, sort to get through that. That's you know, that's I'm sure that's upsetting for them. So I'm not sure why people feel the need to do that except to advance their own agenda.
Right, Yes, yeah, I think that is the case. So let's talk a little bit about how we can I guess, mitigate these risks that exist. I remember when I remember when you're getting a license in Spain and they make you take a cardiac stress test there, like you get you ride your bike on a treadmill and they just ramp it up until your heart rates in the one
nineties or whatever. And I don't know what they were doing, but they made us I think that may only have been for like elite athletes, but they made us all do that. Is that something where if there was an underlying one of these underlying risk factors that you mentioned, would would it be spotted on a test like that?
Yeah, that's a little bit of a controversial area. So I noticed you said in Spain. In Europe, the consensus is that athletes need to go through these what we called pre screening. So you were probably yeah, probably had electrodes on your body. Yeah, yeah, And so that's a simple, non evasive test, and so you're right because some things you can pick up just rest, but some of these things don't appear until you stress the individual, and so
they'll look for rhythm problems. The other test is what we call eco cardiography, which is basically an ultrasound of the heart, and there you can look at function, but you can also look at structure. Because there's a condition called hypertrophic cardiomopathy. It's relatively common in athletes, it's more common there, and that accounts for about fifty percent of these sudden cardiac deaths, and so you can pick that up on an ECG but you can also pick it
up using ultrasounds. So if you scan the heart you see that it's very large, that would be a diagnosis. So first in Europe they do that. In North America and Canada and the United States they do not. The concern is there's a couple of concerns. One is the price, so you can you're screening large numbers of athletes to pick out a relative small number who may be affected. It's crude, but that is an argument that people make.
So I guess the question comes down to how much is life worth to you and how much do you want to spend. So there is that, But there is another issue, which is what they call false positives. So you know, had you been diagnosed as having a condition, that you maybe pulled out of training for a little while while they do more tests and stuff like that,
that could be very stressful on you. And so the view in North America's there's an unacceptably high number of those false positives and so they feel that it's not worth worth doing. The other issue, so I'm not sure when did you do this screening. Was it like twenty.
Years or no, ten years ago? Probably like twenty ten.
Yeah, So so one of the issues that we have is when you have these high performance athletes, their hearts change, they get bigger, they get more efficient, their rhythms change, and they have conditions that we would pick up on ACGS and echo that would be considered pathological, right, But because they're athletes, these are changes that do occur in athletes as their hearts remodel, and they're not a sign
of disease. Right. If if you took someone who wasn't highly fit and had so for example, if you screen someone's heart and you saw that it was very large and they didn't exercise, you might be concerned. But if you're you know, an elite cyclist where your heart gets very big, it's going to be bigger. And so what we have struggled with for a number of years is what is normal in the athlete that would be considered
abnormal in the general population. Italy has a really good job on this, so start going back into the nineteen eighties, they started to collect data because that's what we need, right, we need data from athletes, and they created a huge database which actually us in my class now to teach and say, you know, if you have an athlete and you see these things, these are things we wouldn't be concerned about, or here's some markers where we might be concerned,
and so we have to look further. And then here's some things where it doesn't matter whether you're an athlete or you know, someone who sits on their couch all day, that's a problem. But without that data, we didn't we didn't have that ability. And so I think the last time is twenty eighteen. The Europeans updated their criteria. Each time they update it, you know, we add new things or modify things that are in there. So you would
have had abnormal things. You may have had abnormal things on your ACG that the cardiologists would have looked at and said, well, according to our athlete standards, that's okay, and we're going to ignore it. And we didn't have that until relatively recently.
Okay, yeah, I do remember.
I think like having a resting heart rate, which we'd be considered like pathologically or like dangerously low with the thing would get.
Yeah, braid of cardio, so it's called braid of cardio is obviously very common, right, And I give an example of my class every year where you know you have an athlete, their heart rate can be forty beats for a minute. And so I said, you know you would ignore that, you know the earl elite cyclists. I get that.
And then I give an example where it's a woman she's sixty three years old or resting, heart rates forty two beats a minute, she doesn't do any exercise, and the physicians are like, oh, she must be very healthy. I'm like, no, that's not normal. And so it turned out so the reason they flagged her was because she kept passing out because she was braid of kartic, and she eventually broke her nose and she was sent to the hospital. They did a genetic test and found that
she had a cardiac arrhythmia. Rights So my what I always teach my students is don't just look at the monitor, look at your patient. Right, So when your heart rates forty beats a minute and they're cycling away and you know, he's like, yeah, that person's very fit, and it's like when you look and they're eighty years old and they're passing out, forty beats of minuted is not normal, right, And so we don't need real high standards for some of these things. But some of them we did.
Yeah, and I wonder like people listening will probably be sufficiently afraid now, but I'm not, hopefully not too afraid. But like lots of people these days are monitoring their heart rate all the time, right, They have watches, they have wristbands when they're exercising, they have chest bands, so you can monitor your heart real kinds of bass these stage.
You can wear a ring.
Would any of those devices be useful in predicting or seeing families things?
Not really, only because they're they're very limited. Souse. Great, people measure their heart rate because it is a general sign of health and so good lowering rest lower resting heart rates very good. And when you're exercising, you want to bring your heart rate into certain zones uh to have effective workers. So that's all great. So I'm not
trying to discourage people from from doing that. But if you want to diagnose long QT syndrome, for example, in somebody, that requires calculations, So for sure, you need to measure
things very accurately. When I'm sure when you had your your traits done you would have had multiple electrodes stuck on your your body, because yeah, we typically do what's called the twelve lead ECG, and so there's there's multiple electrodes and they have to be positioned in certain places in order to measure how the heart basically the heart's electricity is flowing in certain directions because that actually tells
us something. So when you have I mean, I have a device that I use to teach and to illustrate people, and it's on the back of my cell phone and they could just you know, you put your fingers on it and you can you can you can measure things and you get an ECG off that. So it looks really neat and it's great for teaching, But I'm not going to diagnose somebody with regardless syndrome or long QT or any of those those things. Those are much more
in depth. It's required much more in depth equipment to do.
Something like that, right, Yeah, yeah, definitely. Like sometimes when you ride under electricity pilants, you'll see a heart rate of two hundred and forty.
And it will be concerning.
Okay, didn't work out what was connected to it. So if these things are occurring, and obviously they occur, it's sort of at a certain percentage of young athletes and certain percentage anywhere else? Are there ways that these cerdaen kadiak risks we could reduce the number of them that result in death?
Yeah, no, for sure. So CPR. So the people who die quite often die because there's there's nobody there to administer CPR, and so you lose that very valuable time. And so people are concerned about, you know, stepping in and doing something and potentially hurting someone. If someone is dead like that, you're not going to hurt them, right, So you know, please learn CPR. It's not difficult. They
can certainly do that. You know. In Canada, abouteen years ago now, the Heart instruct Foundation of Canada raised a tremendous amount of money to put we call automatic extrungt defibrillators or AEDs in public places. I think they put fifteen thousand of them. Plus companies will buy them for their o their workplaces and things like that. And so if someone goes down and their heart stops, you take
these things out. There's some patches. It comes with instructions like it will tell you actually what to do, and you take it out, you put the patches on the individual, you step back because it will deliver a shock and it will automatically shock their heart trying to get it back into rhythm. So knowing where those are, I'll say, knowing how to do them, you don't necessarily need to practice because it will walk you through it. But at least knowing where they are and not being afraid to
use them, I think is very important. These quick reactions in administering care before the paramedics or someone else gets there is super important. If you let someone go five ten minutes without any you know, CPR or anything like that, there's a tremendous amount of damage that's done and it can't be overcome.
Okay, Yeah, And I think in a lot of places in the US, certainly like you can access free CPI AED training or your.
Employee might pay for it.
And I don't do you know any resources people could use to find where they can find that free training.
So in the States that the American Heart Association would be a good place to go, the American Red Crop, I'm sure they'll have resources in Canada's Heart and Struck Foundation of Canada, Saint John's Ambulance, But like you said, a lot of just you know, local community centers will put these things on a couple of times a year, you know, just so that people are familiar with with how to do it. Work places will sometimes do it once or twice a year. Have training a lot of
people to just learn how to how to do it. Yeah, I'm not sure where people if you just go on the internet and wherever you are and look for first day, a lot of times it falls on your first day. But if you just google your city and CPR, I'm sure something will come up. And I bet there's something this month you could go to nice.
Yeah.
Yeah, we've spoken before back to stop the league courses and have their real set free and easy to exist. People could do both of value to be really set up to help people. Glynn, is there anything else you think people ought to know about these sudden sudden kindia arrest there sort of with the conspiracy theories around them, or anything else they can do to protect themselves through other people.
Well, I think there's the perception that that by saying that there's not an issue, that it means we don't we don't care. In fact, we do care about these these issues. Like I said, I've taught about this for you know, over a decade. I have a background and doing some sports medicine work a long time ago. I certainly have a strong interest in helping these people. When we say the risk is not going up, it doesn't
mean that we don't care. And so you know when a soccer player, a football player, somebody goes down on the court, that we just say, well, yeah, it happens. It's not what we're saying. We're saying we know these things happen, we do care about them. I would actually flip this around the other way and say, some of these people, the people who I'm talking about, the people who are profiting off that's not people who are like, I had no idea this was happening. That's okay, you know,
not everybody can know everything. But the people who are saying this is increasing and they're making money off these things by selling their movies and whatever. Did you not care when someone you know died in twenty fifteen because they were in twenty nineteen, they were dying and kids were doing it. And if you'd like to come to my class I and show you, you know, the pictures of these people because you weren't around then. And I'm wondering,
I'm not really wondering why you're around now? I know why they're they're around now. They're profiting off of this, And so I would actually flip it the other way and say, you know, have them ask them why is this new to them when we've when the data show this has been happening all.
Along, right, Yeah, And by encouraging people not to get vaccinated, they're encouraging it base themselves at a higher risk for cardiac issues, right, for presumably a profit motive in some cases, which is very sad. Glenn, where can people you do some excellent threads on Twitter so people can learn a lot about heart stuff. There is there anywhere else or where do you prefer people to find you? I guess online?
Yeah, No, we do a lot of social media stuff. There's a lot of I know, people complain about Twitter. I complain about Twitter, but there's a lot of really Twitter, a lot of really good people on there who you know present their information. You know, you can just want to look for those people there. What I would say is like, how do you identify who are the good people who you can trust? The stuff is the people who are able to be transparent with where they get
their information. Right, So when I say you know, the vaccines reduced your risk of these major cardiovascular events. I typically provide a study or something like that to show where I got that information. The people who are less trustworthy will say, you know, either go find it yourself because they don't know, or well, I can see it. I know what's happening. You know, a lot of these things are measurable, so we should be able to find those. A lot of us write on things. I've written for
the Conversation Science two point zero. You know things will be there. But social media is a good place to go because you can interact with you and you can ask those those questions. So yeah, yeah, you can reach out to me and see who I follow and who I interact with if if, if you're interested in that, you could take that as a good or a bad sign. However you you want.
To take it what you handle on Twitter.
So my handle is Glen g l e n pile p y l E. I'm also on the sky I just joined that the other day, so nice.
Congratulations. Yeah, that's great.
I think the last point you made is one that we should maybe pursue another episode on because we the difference between anecdote and data and like, so there is an increasing number I think of people doing things that look a lot like journal articles, are a lot like studies that a peer reviewed that are not in trying to kind of leverage the credibility of that without actually doing peer review science because the stuff they're doing wouldn't
line up with with peer reviewed science. So it'd be interesting to.
Write there, right, Yes, yes, it was a whole episode too.
Yeah yeah, next time. Well, thank you so much for your time, JN.
Thanks very much, James, I appreciate it. It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could Happen here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.