Stop Cop City vs RICO ft Moira Meltzer-Cohen

it's kind of getting worse. But through that there's people who respond to this crisis of neoliberalism and band together and figure out how to sort through all of this shit and all that is continuing as the City of Atlanta and State of Georgia unveil new state repression tactics to chill any resistance to the construction of this ninety million dollar police training facility that we have covered in

depth in this show the past few years. A few months ago there was another three part series about the sixth Week of Action in June, but new things have happened since then. The referendum has been submitted to that is all in process, but the same day construction was scheduled to begin, the State of Georgia indicted sixty one people on rico charges, RICO is an acronym referring to

the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act. This specific act is meant to legally target organizations, and organizations can relate to anything between you know, traditional incorporated organizations or something as loose as like a pickup basketball team, which is how the state is able to paint whole communities of people who are just connected by similar values as being a quote unquote organization. The RICO Act, in practice is

basically a way to criminalize a whole community. Now I'm not a lawyer, but I do know lawyer. So for this episode, I brought on Mo Cohen, a lawyer specializing in state repression. So, without further ado, here is my conversation with them. Mo, Hello, thank you for joining me today.

about pretty in depth before. But before we get into the actual like rico charges, I first want to kind of talk about the raid that happened against the Atlanta Solidarity Fund earlier this year, and a whole bunch of like financial crime charges that they've been trying to use

to suppress the bail fund organizing. I think we've talked about this kind of briefly on the show before, but we've never really gotten very much in depth about it, and from my perspective, a lot of these reco charges are very much related to the depression of the Solidarity Fund mode. I assume you're familiar with the Solidarity Fund raid and the charges against against the Network for Strong Communities. I am, Yeah. Do I talk a little bit about

that event. I think that happened in May of this year, I believe, so.

typically get taken out with a swat team. But I don't think it was a huge surprise that the district attorney brought those charges because this kind of reco indictment was anticipated, and those kinds of financial charges or allegations of financial misconduct are sort of the predicate for bringing this kind of sweeping rego indictment.

as a potential like a tactic of of suppression. You know when you say that the types of like financial crime like fraud charges that that were brought against this the Sole Fund people, how they seem kind of unwarranted. That is something that the judge in the bond hearing kind of agreed with.

because this all seems kind of like nonsense. But you know that that didn't stop the prosecutors and the I believe it's the Attorney General Office as well of Georgia of using using kind of some stuff from this from this raid against the Solidarity Fund and trying to kind of tie together this grand conspiracy narrative that we now

see in this in this reco indictment. So let's I guess let's let's talk a little bit about the Rico indictment at this At this point, so rico is a very like scary word, right, Like this is like I feel like everyone kind of knows about like rico like

like a pop culture like it's like geist sense. But do I actually like talk about like what these types of rico charges actually are because like you know, most people, even if they're charged with the crime, right, most people don't ever like have to deal with, Like RICO as like a concept, So do it you know, if if if you're like arrested at a protest to get like, you know, pedestrian in roadway, there's like a litany of other kind of basic charges that cops will throw at you.

RICO is a bit more serious, Like it's kind of it's kind of like a scary ordeal, you know, same thing with like the domestic terrorism charges that that that have been used the past year.

that I want to say just upfront. Sure, The first thing is this is not the first time that RICO has been used against movement people. The second thing I want to say is that all prosecutions are political prosecutions, and RICO is no different. Although federal RICO and ostensibly Georgia State RICO were developed and passed in an effort to target organized crime, that is not how they've been

primarily used. And I think it is really significant to note that after a lot of the people of color solidarity movements like the Black Panthers of Black Liberation, Army Aim, the Brown Berets, the Young Lords, these groups were all really weakened by Cohen telpro and the community groups that remained were then labeled as gangs and prosecuted under RICO.

And so I just you know, everything that happens in this conversation, we have to sort of hold in our minds that this particular movement is not the first movement and not the first community who has had REGO leveled against it as a form of state repression.

thing that the Fulton County Office has has done before. Yes, and also like we have like rico's this is like a criminal racketeering thing against the mob. In terms of like what RICO actually is, like is it its own separate charge or is it like is it a way to like apply other felony charges, like you know, can can you just be charged with RICO or is there have to be like other other crimes that you're accused of for them to actually use this use this charge against these activists.

being even broader. One of the reasons it is so attractive to prosecutors is precisely because it can capture these large groups of people with very little actual criminal conduct.

And then it gets into all these like alleged alleged like a thing that are not necessarily criminal nature, but they're all in the service of pushing forward this conspiracy to stop the construction of this police training facility. So there's a lot of like kind of like a like random almost aseni and stuff in there that that they're that they're eluding is is a quote unquote an overt

act in furtherance of the conspiracy. You know, anything from like buying glue or buying like food supplies, and they're they're including or or things like like like writing your name as Aca B. They're they're they're including that as as as as an as an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy, which is is kind of silly. It

doesn't make very much sense. But like these also these is this is like a very serious case as well though, because this is like you know, the people, people you know, facing twenty years in prison on top of like the domestic terrorism charges. Well, uh, do you know what else is a overt act in furtherance of a conspiracy? It is the the uh, the advertising that allows us to continue this show. It's all, it's all, it's all all part of the plan. So yes, every every single ad

is a co conspirator. So take that, Ronald reichen Coin. Okay, we are back. We could talk about more about the actual indictment in a sec I do kind of want to first talk about who are facing these charges, right, because these are these are sixty one people, and it looks like for for when I was looking through, one of the first things that you noticed is like, oh, they're mostly charging people who have already been charged before. There's not too many new people added.

Cup City activists. And in fact, I think one of the things that tipped us off at that point that RICO was in the pipeline was that people were being charged with domestic terrorism, which is one of the predicate offenses for RICO. And so many of the people who are on this indictment are the people who were already charged with domestic terrorism. They were overcharged domestic terrorism. In my opinion, they were overcharged. I think the opinion of

most attorneys, they were overcharged. They were charged in that manner, not because the allegations against them are serious. In fact, if you look at the allegations in those domestic terrorism indictments or they're not even indictments yet, most of them in those domestic terrorism charges in the documents that are

associated with those arrests. The allegations are, you know, as I said, these absolutely unremarkable garden variety sort of criminal trespass allegations, by and large, the allegations against people, and they include things that are absolutely lawful, like having mud on your like having on your knees. Yes, yeah, so

a lot of the allegations. One of the things that's remarkable about Rico, and frankly about the domestic terrorism stuff, is that both of those statutes allow for the sort of bootstrapping of one offense into a much more serious offense if certain conditions are met. With respect to the domestic terrorism statute, a very large number of garden variety offenses like criminal trespassing can be transformed into domestic terrorism

if they are perceived to be essentially politically motivated. In the case of So, what we have here is a situation where a bunch of people got charged with domestic terrorism, not because they were doing something really dramatic or violent, but because whatever it was they were doing was perceived as being an effort to influence public policy. So we transformed a very minor offense into a very serious offense.

That serious offense then became the predicate offense for Rico, which is an even more serious offense.

other other charges. Yet the prosecutors just argued, because we're charging with domestic terrorism, it's like inferred that they must have done some other crimes that we haven't yet specified. But in the way that works for the for the Rico indictments, because I think you need to have already had like like I think there's like a prerequisitive like

two other like felonious charges. What they did in the in these reco charges is go back to the music festival and break down every single thing that happened there that they're alleged these people did as separate instances like like planning to go to the place, you know, marching to the place, being at the place, Like they broke it down to have all these separate things so that

they could like shoehorn it into this Rico indictment. So there's a lot of like a you know, revisionist history going on here, very kind of different arguments than what the actual like domestic terrorism of bond hearings had in like a previous months. But yeah, there is at least at least one person in the indictments who is new I think. I think possibly a few others, but I haven't quite checked, but there at least one person which

is a very interesting case. It's this it's this guy who worked at the uh the Flock camera company who I saw that who they are alleging was was passing off information about where cameras were were were located. And this is an extremely interesting case because he is he is not included in any other previous charges, but that is at least one of the people who who are

kind of new additions to this indictment. One thing I didn't want to mention because you've you've said you've you've kind of mentioned a few times that these are these are state level RICO charges. Those are kind of different

than federal reco charges. Do you want to kind of get into like the difference between state and federal charges and specifically how kind of the ones in Georgia at work versus the the the federal rico that you know, kind of inspired different states to kind of add their own style of rico.

associating them with, you know, this criminal enterprise. The Georgia Ricos statute is even more broad. The Georgia Ricos Statute uses a lot of the same terms, right, a pattern of racketeering activity. Right, It uses a lot of the same concepts, but it defines those concepts in ways that

are even broader, even easier to apply. So I think the thing that is significant about RICO is that similar to like what we would see with conspiracy, where you know, not every person involved in a conspiracy needs to have been participating in every single criminal instance of criminal conduct in order to be implicated.

one person's behavior to another person. Rico offers a way around that.

for the glue, yeah, can function to allow the prosecutor to attribute all of this other criminal conduct to the person who bought glue.

it's laughable. They're making these claims that you know, if it weren't so serious, if this weren't so serious, we'd all be rolling on the floor. The idea that mutual aid is sinister. Yeah, it really to me. When I read this indictment, I thought, Wow, this is just fascinating, because what's happening here is that Georgia is saying the quiet part out loud. We all know state repression is real.

We all know that the American legal system functions to repressed assent, to impose prior restraints on First Amendment protected behavior,

to chill speech, to frighten people into submission. Right, we understand that it is this coercive system, but there is at least a sort of set of rules that purport to prioritize fairness, that purport to value concepts of due process, and the Rico Statute, and in particular, the Reco Statute as it is being used here, really functions so explicitly to circumvent those rules, and that they're just they're not

even trying anymore. They're not even trying to pretend that they care about individual probable cause, about the First Amendment, and I would say, most frighteningly about the sixth Amendment, which is the right to counsel, because they have gone way beyond the pale in alleging that things like accessing legal help, or accessing bail, or having legal observers or you know, providing anti repression trainings are in some manner sinister acts in furtherance of the conspiracy. And I am

really I don't know what will happen here. I really can't begin to guess because I feel like it is no longer possible for me to be surprised by the nonsense that is coming out of this jurisdiction. I don't know what will happen, but I am very, very curious to see how the bench, how the judges in Georgia respond to these allegations that involve making it part of

a criminal conspiracy to provide legal assistance. You know, this is to me like one of the most concerning aspects of this of this indictment, because as absurd as it is, this could have very serious consequences.

police reform, like any any kind of like any kind of like grassroots activist, whatever kind of movement that's going to happen in the future, is going to be affected

by how these cases go. Because not only as you know, as as as you mentioned the you know, access to bail fund being being in like access to to to lawyers and and so and legal support is being used in these reco charges, they were also alleging that by having a you know, a bail fund number on your arm, that was like, you know, that was evidence that that's

that this person intended to do crimes. And then you know, as as evident in support of these domestic terrorism charges, which is you know, an extremely dangerously legal claim to to to be to be talking about and we've been dealing with that in Atlanta for months now, and it's you know, it's created this really chilling effect on the ground that you know, you can you can be you know, doing something as simples marching in the street and now

have not only like terrorism charges, having reco charges for stuff that is very clearly like First Amendment activity.

visible and highly legible as state repression. And then when people respond appropriately by anticipating that they may be subject to state repression by writing the jail support number on their arm, not because they believe that they intend to go out and do crimes, but because they know that unremarkable acts of First Amendment protected conduct may result in intense state repression. The law enforcement apparatus then responds by

rationalizing their repression further. I mean, it's just we we can see the sort of post hoc fallacy at work in real time. It's not clear to me how how much of the hypocrisy is self aware. Sure, you know who else doesn't talk to cops? Products I cannot guarantee that.

is really petty. There does seem to be one major act of violence that is alleged in this indictment, and I think we need to talk about it for a second because that one alleged act of violence involves the claim that Manuel torte Ghita Tehran, who was murdered by police, was firing upon officers, and that is an incredibly central

claim in this indictment. That really is I think the hook on which they're hanging a lot of the seriousness of the allegations, and it is an incredibly disingenuous claim and it's an incredibly dangerous claim. The evidence that they're using to support that claim is the statement of a third party who was not present. It's a regrettable statement that they've dug up from some group balance you know,

you know, thousands of miles away from the Atlanta Forest. Yes, and there's no reason to credit that statement, but they are using it to support this claim. That is, as I said, it's it's critical to their argument, and it is extremely disingenuous and it's extremely dangerous for for the office of a prosecutor, which you know, for what it's worth,

is supposed to pursue justice and not convictions. It is just intolerable to me that that somebody thought this was an acceptable thing to put into a legal document.

that they did crimes on on on this website. But they're they're attributing the the either like co authorship of these claims to the people at the Solidary Front, which

they've laid out no evidence in supporting that. That's it's it's one of the more bizarre aspects of this indictment because they make every they claim that every single post on scenes is somehow the solidarity different people are in part responsible for it, which is absolutely absurd that there's there's They've they've produced nothing, no piece of evidence in

support of this claim. But that is one of the core parts of their indictment because much much of what they're filling this indictment with, you know, talking about how there's people do you know, doing crimes in San Francisco, in in Portland, in like Minneapolis, like all across like

New York, all across the country. Right, this is part of like the criminal conspiracy angle, which where very clearly from my perspective, this is, you know, people all across the country who care about a cause and so they're doing something in their own city. It's there's there's no there's no conspiracy to it. It's it's people taking their own individual action, but they're they're trying, they're trying to tie this into the solidarity fund in a very bizarre way.

You know, I'll be curious to see if they ever try to prove evidence to support that claim in court. But it's it's it's so laughable on the face. So you're like, how can how can three people with with a bail fund be be connected to these direct actions happening all across the country.

very used to having hierarchy in their lives. And you know, I think I've I've talked about this before, I think on this show about the fact that when the far right organizes, they organize in ways that are familiar to police and prosecutors. Right, they organize in these very martial, hierarchical ways where there's a clear chain of command. Now, often their chain of command is very silly and involves people having titles like dragons and wizards. But it's legible, right,

It's legible to law enforcement. They understand there's someone in charge, and there's someone who answers to the person in charge. Having a situation where we have a website that is unmoderated, hosted by or supported by some group, and totally open is something that I think, you know, police and prosecutors might have a little bit of difficulty understanding, right, because it's inconceivable to them that there is not a hierarchy,

that there's not a chain of command. It's like, you know, I've actually had to drop footnotes in federal court filings to explain to judges and to explain to opposing counsel that Antifa is like a set of practices and not

a membership organization. Yes, right, And that trying to trying to address Antifa as though it were an organization is similar to trying to address the world of Batman fans, right, Like, these are all people who might self identify in some way, but you couldn't really identify them as a group, and they don't know each other, and they're not so I ifying in any way for each other.

the indictment. So the fact that they're trying to tie this to Solidarity Fund in some ways is very is very bizarre, just because there was like a link on this website to donate to the Solidarity Fund, but any anyone could put a link there like that's like, I I've put links to the to the Solidarity Fund in the show notes of this podcast, right, I'm I'm not. I'm not connected to them in any in any other way.

So just just having having that be this this kind of aspect and even even if somehow Solidarity Fund were run running running this whole website, which there's no evidence they are, this feels like would also relate to like a section two thirty case where people who host content are not responsible for the actual like like they're they're

not like the a super big lot person. But this usually applies to like social media sites and other places that host user generated content that the actual site itself is not responsible for the user generated content that is that is that is on the site. So it's anyway, there's a whole bunch of you know, various various aspects of this claim that don't don't make any sense to me.

But it's verically that they're trying to wrap all of these no blogs posts in because that's the most that's most like the evidence they have, which is extremely weak, you know, it's it's it's in some ways a good sign that all they have are these anonymous posts on this website with no actual you know, idea of of who made them or if they're true or not. But that's the kind of that's the that's a lot of a lot of what we're a lot of what they are going off or are just these website posts which.

don't practice in that jurisdiction. I'm not familiar. You know, I've never defended a Rico case. Just to be clear, you know, my wheelhouse is state repression. This is clearly that. But I'm not tremendously familiar with litigating Rico and I'm not you know, I would like to have some faith in the legal system, but that faith has been worn rather thin, and it has particularly been worn thin after watching, you know, all of the abuses that have taken place

in this particular case. So, you know, I am really concerned. I'm really concerned about the constitutionality of this statute and of the domestic terrorism Statute. I am concerned about what will happen in the courts if this proceeds. That said, it is entirely possible that this is like many many criminal cases that are brought in the context of protest movements.

It is highly possible that the primary thing motivating these cases is an effort to fractionate and drain and distract and criminalize in the popular imagination, the movement to stop cop City. They may be more interested in doing those things than they are in obtaining any convictions or proceeding

to trial, and they may well succeed. You know, Look, prosecution is a very very effective way to undermine movement solidarity, and it's a very effective way to undermine popular support, and it's a very effective way to make it impossible for people to actually focus on their movement goals because they have to spend all of their time doing court support and hiring lawyers and talking to me. Right when you're talking to me, you're probably not doing a lot

of public education or signature gathering or forest defense, right. Yeah. So you know, I guess what I would say is like, this is a very clear example of state repression. It is extremely disruptive. I'm sure that the people who are included on this indictment have good reason to be quite anxious. But that said, as I frequently remind people, state repression is not new. It exists all of the time, whether

or not we can see it. Right, even if we didn't have this indictment, there would be other things happening, and the most powerful weapon that the state has to quell social movements is fear. And so the solution to state repression is not self censorship, It is not staying home. It is courage.

not caused people to back down. It's caused them to actually like strengthen their solidarity with each other and and and keep on and keep on going. I think that's because all of these things have been seen from the

start as very clear tactics of state repression. It is actually like catalyze people to actually like care for each other more and and and and recognize what is going on so they can respond appropriately and and and not let all of these all of these very like chilling tactics, but consciously make sure that you recognize that so that you don't let it really, like, you know, affect your ability to continue continue doing the work that you feel

is so important. And that's absolutely been one of the things that's been very unique to watch in atlant To. I think, uh, I think we've kind of covered lots of lots of what I wanted to get into. In case you have any other kind of things of note or any like, any like resources you want to you want to point people towards. I think I think we'll be kind of close to wrapping up here.

a while to the Solidarity Fund was rated. They were not you know, taking in donations, they were outsourcing it to the net to the National Bill Fund. I believe they are they are back. The Solidarity Fund website is now once again taking taking donations to help people who are facing this repression, for legal support, for counsel, all

of all these sorts of things. And because this case just keeps on growing, you know, they're they're always kind of needing, needing, needing more resources to get people lawyers, to get people out of jail, all of these sorts of things. So you can you can once again donate at the at the at L solidarity dot org site. So that is that is also kind of new news as of as of the past few, uh few weeks. Thank you Moe for for talking about this. Uh, this is very very enlightening.

your name and number and my lawyer will call you. Yep.