Resisting Turkish Imperialism in Rojava ft Debbie Bookchin

Northeast Syria. UM. I'm going to introduce kind of that concept in h I'll do it right now. Basically if you if you don't know anything about this, you might check out our podcast The Women's War UM. But it is a it is an autonomous region, not a state in northeast Syria that is not under the control of the Assad regime UM or of any other state in

the area. It's an independent UM community that is based on some pretty radical it's it's organ to zation is based on some pretty radical political philosophies UM in large part ones that were sort of initially explored by a man named Murray Buchin, who is an American social theorist and anarchists anarchist political philosopher Um and some of his ideas were adopted by the leader of a militant group in the region called the p K k Um And the leader of that group was a guy in a

Turkish prison named of Dula Augelan, who was you might say, a Kurdish freedom fighter. Um Augelon encountered books ideas and started writing his own books of political theory that we're kind of based off of them. And then when uh, two thousand thirteen, you get the Syrian Civil War reaches its kind of height, Isis becomes the thing. Suddenly the government's not in this area that has a large Kurtish population, Northeast Syria, and you know, people who are followers of

Augelan takeover and start as they're fighting. Isis instituting this kind of radical feminist, egalitarian vision of society which is currently under attacked by the Turkish government, which is what we're gonna be talking about. So I want to introduce

our guests for today. First off, we have have James Stout and we have Chris on the call from our normal Cool Zone team, and then our guests today are Debbie book Chin Debtie is a journalist and author and co editor of the Next Revolution, Popular Assemblies and the Promise of Direct Democracy. UM. And then we also have Megan Bodette from the Kurdish Peace Institute, where she is the director of research. UM. Welcome to the show, Megan and Debbie. Thank you, it's great to be here. Thank

you so much, really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you both for your time. I think maybe to start us out, Megan, UM, would you be willing to talk a little bit about why the Turkish government is so aggressive towards this independent region in northeast Syria and kind of what the situation

on the ground is now. Yeah, absolutely so. For some background, essentially, since the division of the Middle East into the modern nation states that exist there today after World War One, with the agreements by European powers, the Kurdish people have been divided between four different states Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria, and all of those states have had governments that have been ethno nationalists, that have been repressive, that have not

provided Kurds and other ethnic and religious minorities equal citizenship rights, UM, to participate in politics and to practice their culture, to speak their language. UM. In addition to denying many of these rights to many of their other citizens of different ethnicities and religions as well. And so as a result of this repression, and the repression in Turkey was some of the strongest and most systemic um the Kurdish people in these regions have continued to struggle for and demand

self determination and freedom in different political forms. What happened in Turkey in the nineteen twenties and the nineteen thirties, there were Kurdish revolts against the new um Turkish Republic, which was a very autocratic nation state that denied the existence of all non Turkish ethnicities. And these revolts were all violently put down with attacks that not only targeted those who tried to resist these policies of assimilation, but that also resulted in um Turkish you know, mass violence

against Kurdish civilians in these regions. You had forced deportations, you had ethnic cleansing, you had all kinds of brutal violence against civilians in order to specifically create this homogeneous Turkish ethnic identity in Kurdish regions. And so after this period of time, there were um there was a period wherein there was less resistance, and I think, you know, the Turkish government believed that the Kurdish problem had been solved by force. They had successfully been able to kill

or assimilate all of the Kurdish people. But in the nineteen seventies and the nineteen eighties, sort of concurrent with many national liberation movements around the world, you had the beginning of the PKK or the Kurdistan Workers Parties national

liberation struggle. Now, they began as a socialist movement seeking an independent and socialist Kurdish state, and they saw Kurdistan as a colony that was occupied by Turkey, and with the colonialism of Turkey in Kurdistan, was supported by imperialist powers in the rest of the world as well, and they sought to write that as other national liberation movements in Africa, Asia, Latin America many places at the time

did with an armed struggle for independence. And in responding to the PKK's formation and armed struggle, the Turkish state once again, rather than acceding to any Kurdish demands, they responded with brutal, violent oppression of not only Kurds who were active in the armed struggle, not only politically active Kurds, but on all forms of Kurdish identity. After the military coup in Turkey in nineteen eighty, the Kurdish language was banned. UM Kurds were imprisoned on false charges or no charges

at all. UM torture was prevalent, show trials were prevalent. UM any kind of publication or other public interaction in Kurdish was completely illegal. So there was this full scale effort to repress the Kurds and any other progressive segments of society in Turkey that would have supported them, and as the conflict went on, Turkey did very little to change.

By the nineteen nineties, the success of the Kurdish movement had forced the state to recalibrate, as had developments in Iraqi Kurdistan with Kords, they're achieving autonomy and so you started to have the ability of Kurdish political actors to work within the system. We saw the development of pro Kurdish legal political parties at that time, but there was still very severe repression of any and all things Kurdish as they made their demands, even of those who increasingly

attempted to make demands peacefully. So the conflict went on throughout the nineteen nineties and the two thousands and to this day UM despite a peace process between the government of Turkey and the PKK and the Kurdish movement between

and UM. That process failed. When Radwan's government saw that it was allowing for Kurds to take advantage of expanded democratic space in Turkey organized and achieve electoral political success, the government abandoned its commitments and sadly returned to war, and the conflict has been going on ever since and has included, you know, again, not only this military component, but this component of crushing all forms of organized Kurdish

political and cultural expression. So what we've been seeing in Turkey over the past UM nearly a decade, now more than a half decade, is the repression of the pro Kurdish political opposition in parliament, the People's Democratic Party or the HDP. UM. We've seen repression of Kurdish media, attacks

on Kurdish journalists. UM, we've seen any kind of Kurdish activism, not only UM that that's explicitly political, but any kind of acknowledgment of the Kurdish language, of Kurdish colors, of Kurdish clothing very readily criminalized and this campaign of attacking and repressing all things Kurdish has of course expanded beyond

Turkey's borders. So Turkey opposes North Anys Syria because the Syrian Kurds have created a form of autonomous governance that protects and promotes Kurdish rights, because they have done so in the framework of the Kurdish freedom movement that has its roots in Turkey UM and in Ochelan's ideas, as you explained, and because they've been able to create a successful alternative to the very sort of nationalist project that

the modern Turkish state is based on. You know, I would say that the Turkish Kurdish conflict, and I don't like to call it that, but that is what most people call it today, is really a conflict now over to competing visions of regional order with Turkeys based on the right ring wing neoliberal nation state and the Kurdish movement's vision of a Middle East based on self determination, liberation, equality for women, and other values not only for birds,

but for all people. So because Northern East Syria represents UM both Kurdish success and in creating an autonomous region, and it represents these ideas of the Kurdish freedom movement that challenge Turkish National Project UM. Turkey has been trying to destroy the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria by all possible means for a very long time now.

They've invaded Syrian territory twice to attack the Autonomous Administration and the SDF, the Syrian Democratic Forces, once in a Frina in two thousand and eighteen Afrina Is in northwestern Syria, and then once in two thousand nineteen after UM, you know Trump and air Tawan's phone call that we all infamously remember, in Seri Kanier and tal Abiad in northeastern Syria.

So you've had these two invasions and occupations of UM North and East Syria's territory that have included not only the terrible violence of invasion and occupation, but also all kinds of crimes against civilians who remained. We've seen uptakes in violence and abuse of women, ethnically motivated, religiously motivated hatred and persecution that's driven virtually all of the non Arab and non Muslim people living in these regions to

flee their homes. Attacks on anyone who is perceived as having collaborated with the prior administration all being carried out by Turkey and Turkish back Syrian militia groups. So we've seen the persecution of the civilians in these areas with the intent of changing demographics and installing not only a government sympathetic to Turkey and the military structure sympathetic to Turkey, but also removing the social base for the Autonomous Administration's project.

And then, in addition to these all out attacks on the Autonomous Administration in these regions, Turkey continues to threaten the territory that North Aneast Syria does have left, which is still nearly one third of Syrian territory concentrated in the northeast. There's been an escalating campaign of drone strikes targeting leaders in the Autonomous Administration and the STF, as

well as Syrian civilians. Turkey is cutting water access to North Aneast Syria by restricting the flow of the Euphrates River. This is an agricultural region. People depend on that water for all aspects of life um and certainly for the economy.

That's caused a great deal of suffering. The entire Turkish Syrian border is very heavily militarized, when you drive by it and you see the wall and you know, very lit up at night with the barbed wire and everything, and you just look at you know, these civilian towns, very peaceful on both sides. It's something very disturbing to see. UM. But it's a highly militarized border and it is completely

sealed border. UM. Turkey does not trade with North in East Syria and supports an international economic blockade on the region, including by pressuring its allies to restrict the access of goods to North and East Syria. So there's economics they're

going on there. There are really every tactic that Turkey is able to use, whether military, economic, environmental, political, or anything else in order to crush and destroy on with any serious political project and force the Kurdish people and the other peoples of that region to flee so that there is no base for such a project again in the future. They're doing everything they can to achieve that outcome.

So the situation is very difficult, and it is a direct result of Turkey's you know, century old Kurdish question that it has been unable and unwilling to honestly and in good faith a peaceful solution to UM. And we'll get to it later, but the international community has played a very big role in ensuring that that conflict goes

on with all of those negative consequences for Northeast Syria. Yeah, I mean, and that's one of the obviously Turkey is the second largest military in NATO UM and has you know, one of the things that is such like so messy about this is that on paper and on the ground, in fact, the United States has been supporting the Autonomous Region UM in Northeast Syria and particularly the White PG and the White PJ, which is you know, the militia essentially um as as partners in the fight against ISIS.

And still to this day, right now, there's an operation going on in the Al Whole camp, which is where a lot of ISIS prisoners are held. UM that is like a coalition supported operation. At the same time that the United States is doing this, we're selling weapons to the people who are have essentially declared the folks that are military has been aiding a terrorist organization UM, which

is a peculiar in frustrating situation to say the least. Yeah, And and actually the other thing that's happening, Robert is that you know, Turkey, while it's threatening a full scale invasion, they've been doing all of these things that Megan described sort of on this sort of low intensity warfare scale, a kind of military strategy that uses a whole variety of tactics, um that are short of you know, a

full scale invasion, which still may come. And so you know, there's these extra judicial killings of uh, some of the leaders of the SDF, which is the Syrian Democratic Forces which is the sort of umbrella group of the two militia Kurdish militias that you described, and which also includes many Arab fighters and others who have who have been central and defeating ISIS at the cost I might add of about thirteen thousand lives, you know, and um, you know,

and the and the use of their proxy groups like the Syrian so called you know s N, a Syrian National Army, which is really you know, a group of jihadi militias that Turkey has kind of assembled and now completely is responsive to Turkey and and is the sort of shock troops for when they went did go into Afra and and for these other invasions, um, you know,

economic pressures as Megan described. But the point is that this kind of warfare, it produces these sort of ongoing low level attacks, but it keeps it sort of off the radar of the of the bigger political and and and media machine, and therefore it keeps it from getting the attention that it really deserves in Western societies. It also has the impact of displacing hundreds of thousands of people, and and uh, you know, and and many hundreds have

also been killed. I'm sure probably you're familiar with some of the recent bombings by drone that have been occurring in Rojiva, which you know, including many civilians, school children Turkey. Turkeys doesn't care at all about about who gets hit, and they have been very aggressive, um, without any respect

for civilian cash sualties as well. So you know. So, I mean, I think it's it's important to also just note that this democratic project is in Syria is a deep threat to Turkey because and and that every time Airdoan steps up these military sort of disaggression, um, it leads him to bryce slightly in the polls, which is something that's important to him because he has an election coming up next year. So there's that sort of political dimension to it. But the fact is that that Rojeva

is basically a women's revolution. Women are involved in every aspect of running society there, the political, the social, the economic, and Turkey is essentially a femicidal state. You know it not only reviews women within within Turkey is less than human where husbands can basically get away with murdering their wives. But you know, it targets girls with drones, as it did on August eighteenth when a Turkish rome bombed to you and supported education center for young girls and in

Herseka and Rosava. So you know, it's it's very much, as Megan said, a war of ideologies as well. Again, one of the things that's so frustrating with this so historically, the reason why Turkey was it was so important for NATO to get Turkey as a member is because that's essentially NATO's eastern flank. If you're still thinking about that big theoretical conflict between you know, Russia and UH and

the Western democracies. That was why, you know, part of why why initially like Turkey was such a valued partner, and then as time has gone on, it's um primarily one of the big things is we have a massive air base in Turkey in sirlik Um, where a number

of US nuclear warheads are kept. UM. So there's a tremendous fear cowardice might be a better way to say it, on behalf of politicians in the United States and other Western countries to actually engage with the ethnic cleansings UM and with the human rights abuses that the Turkish government,

particularly under Air to One has has continued. And one of the things that's really frustrating about this, you know, if you think about the way in which ISIS was discussed by US media, was discussed by conservatives by Donald Trump during his campaign, you know, it was this ultimate boogeyman. Well, a huge chunk of the support for for ISSIS and in fact, even logistics for some of their fighters came allegedly courtesy of the Turkish state, and there's some evidence

for this. There's certainly evidence of support for wounded fighters and kind of a a lax policy that allowed a lot of people to come through Turkey and get into northeast Syria to fight UM. And you know, as you noted earlier, thirteen thousand, somewhere around their fighters men and women UM in the YPG and J died fighting ISIS in you know UM, and we're you know, not just fighting ISIS kind of with the backing of the United States.

But prior to getting any support, one of the most important things they did the while ISIS was on the move in Iraq as well as Syria, they were carrying out an active ethnic cleansing, a genocidal operation in Mount Sinjar against the z D s UM and that was only really stopped because while they were fighting a defensive war in northeast Syria, the YPG sent fighters into Iraq to stop the genocide UM and they were successful in this.

You know, you talked to IS. I have a lot of y ZD survivors of the genocide and they'll say, the only reason we got out is because of you know, the YPG, UM and the p k K and the PEAK. Well, and that is that it is. It is, so we should we could talk a little bit about the p k K. They are the the YPG and J and the SDF, which is kind of the umbrella organization are not recognized as terroristorganizations by the United States or by most Western democracies. The p k K is recognized as

a terrorist organization. Turkeys allegations would be that the YPG and j and and other you know militias are just p KK affiliates. Um. The reality is that they are in quite a fact quite closely tied um uh and you will you know, but also there it's not the exact like when you're in Rajaba and you encounter people who are p KK, people will speak about them differently than they will talk about other people who are kind of you know, they're the folks from the mountains is

the term that I here use the most. But the thing is, see, here's the problem. The problem is that that whatever the p k k's history is and has been, and it's where more than we can get into, the p k K made a dramatic shift in its ideology and has done everything possible to try to restart peace

negotiations with Turkey. So first of all, you know, there are several as Megan mentioned before, there was a piece initiative that went on for a few years that then everyone decided wasn't um you know, beneficial to him, so he stopped it. But the PKK and as recently as I think a year or two ago, the leader of the p KK and the Mountains right Najamil Bayek wrote an op ed for The Washington Post saying, we want to have talks, We want to have a reconciliation with Turkey.

We're not asking for separate Cornish state. All we want is some degree of autonomy. And and uh, you know, and and it's actually to the enduring shame of the Western media, including the New York Times, that they continue to talk about them as a separatist organization. But that's another story as well. The fact is that these um ideologies that they both subscribe to p k K and the White PG YPG, regardless of whether to what extent they may be related. The political ideology is an ideology

about direct democracy. It's about empowering people at the local level. It's about making sure that every adult and also the youth have a say in their communities. And it's as

grassroots democratic as anything that you could ever imagine. And so really, you would think that the United States, you know, would understand that there's certainly no threat that the neither the YPG nor the YPG has ever shown any aggression towards Turkey, which is what makes this idea of a buff the idea that they need a buffer zone kind

of a joke, you know. So really it's it's an ideological shift that's so profound and so empowering to local people that it's also something that frankly, those of us who are on the left should be much more supportive of, I think, than than people have been so far. Yeah, I mean, the thing that is most remarkable because I spent a lot, I spent more time, certainly in Iraq than in Syria. And we should note here that we're

talking about Syria today and we're talking about Rojava. Turkish aggression against particularly UM, against the p KK, but against you know, Kurd's kind of in an ethnic sense, UM extends beyond Syria. Turkey has illegally attacked Iraq and in fact moved troops into Iraqi soil a number of times, escalating within the last year, and killed a substantial number of people in the in the Kurdish regional government territories. UM. So that is also occurring here. Although it's it's worth

noting again because people mix this up a lot. What's happening in Kurdish control Iraq is profoundly different from what's happening in Rojava, and they're extremely different political organization. Yeah. I think it's also worth mentioning that it's not just UM Kurdish groups have been attacking in Iraq. There's been a bun of attacks, like a yeah, it's killed a bunch of those people too. It is the yeah, they're

just they're doing the genocide again. Yeah, I think, yeah, it's u it's interesting, you know, I uh, it's also kind of worth. The thing that was perhaps most surprising to me there was the degree to which people I would meet who were just like in many cases just like kind of you know, terrorism police assays guys, or people who were like working traffic checkpoints, are working in

the farms. There were people were really careful to not refer or talk to like what the project was as a state, and it's it's not on a state a state, it's an autonomous region. That's one of the terms I heard the most is the autonomous regions, which is is

really interesting to me. And it's it's hard. It's something certainly like mainstream media writing about it, UM seems to have trouble grasping, as you say, And it's it's interesting because obviously, Debbie, in case folks haven't put it together you are the daughter of Murray book Chin, who is the who is the political philosopher whose ideas formed a significant core of of sort of what the organizational structure in is. UM. Well, I just want to say, first

of all, thank you for that. But I also just want to say that I really want to remind everybody that, of course, you know, Abdullah Chelan read hundreds and hundreds of books, not just my dad's, so I mean, I appreciate that, but you know they have He has really especially placed emphasis on the need for any revolutionary project

to have the liberation of women at its core. My dad talked a lot about hierarchy and patriarchy, but Chilan, by making women central, has really done something unique I think, you know, in in the history of because in the history of sort of revolutionary you know movements, because as many women who have participated in those movements in the past can tell you, it was always sure fight with us and will do with the women's issue when the revolution is over, and a Gelan turned that upside down,

you know, and he said it's got to be a women's revolution. And the women in those movements over there

really fought for that themselves. To UM, and one of the things that you know, it was most interesting for me to see, UM, was when I would go into meetings there with women in all kinds of different you know, military and civilian institutions and different cities across the region, that before I would even bring it up as a researcher, you know, women would say to me that if it weren't for A. Gelan's theories, we wouldn't have the organizations

that we had, we wouldn't have the political power that we have. And they have this incredible articulation of how they use these ideas, you know, as inspiration for their own work and also as almost political cover to do kinds of things that wouldn't be accepted in other places because they can go to men who they work with who might be suspicious, but who you know, have this public stated claim to this ideology and they can say, well, Gelon's books say that society can never be free without

women's liberation, that women's can have their own separate institutions. So they've been able to really take these ideas and expand on them and you know, push them and use them with their own practice. UM. And the way that

the ideas came about themselves. One book that I would recommend anyone interested in the Kurdish movement, UM, in revolutionary women's movements anywhere in the world, and really any topic related to any of this to read is UM, the autobiography of Sakina Johnson's, who was the only woman present for the founding of the PKK and was really instrumental in organizing both the armed and civilian sides of the Kurdish women's movement in Turkey. UM there are pictures of

her everywhere in Syria. She was assassinated in France in two thousand thirteen by Turkey nationalists affiliated with the state, likely suspected, you know, hoping to disrupt the peace negotiations

that were ongoing at that time. But she's remembered everywhere in northeast Syria for her role, and you can see in her book her talking about seeing the inequalities that, as Debbie mentioned, women in socialist movements and revolutionary movements often faced where they were asked to, you know, be as committed to this struggle as their male comrades were, but we're still treated in very patriarchal ways by men that they worked with, because you know, the patriarchy embedded

into these societies, and you see her talking about organizing women to overcome this. UM. And when you look at the history of the Kurdish movement moving into what you see in Northeast Syria as well, you know, women were really able to do so much in practice that the theory had to move to catch up to them. And then to take this new incredible theory of you know, women's oppression being the basis of all oppression UM and the form of oppression that you know must be addressed

to free all members of society in all ways. You know, they took this and they continued to expand it so in a very difficult place in context to do so. I mean we know that in more UM, there's more violence against women, there's more discrimination, there's more emphasis on traditional gender rules. That this holds true across different societies and different conflicts. So they have UM that they face

many challenges. They're up against a lot here, certainly, you know, with all the problems UM that they're facing in Northeast Syria because of conflict and poverty, UM, everything that Turkey is doing that we've discussed, So they're up against a lot and it's not easy, but they've really, you know, they've come incredibly far. Um. And seeing how you know, they've taken very high level theoretical ideas and then done so much in practice, and how their practice and theory

from each other. Um, really one of the most incredible things to see over there. Um. And it's another reason why Turkey wants to destroy them, because arid Land does not believe that women can be equal to men. Um. He does not see male violence against women as a problem. And yeah, you know, as we've discussed, Turkey and the

Kurdish movement couldn't be any more different on this question. No, And it's um, I think the thing because you know, going over there, I went with the eye as a journalist where like I had heard all these things and and Rojava has kind of become among some chunks of the left, chunks of the left that cause celeb in part because of you know, the achievements of the revolution in that space, and I wanted to see how legitimate

is it? And um. Part of why you know I kind of went in with that attitude is that I had spent so much time in the Kurdish regions of Iraq, and if if you remember when the fighting against ISIS was at its height, there was a tremendous amount of coverage of the female Peshmerga and the fact that you know, the Kurds in northern Iraq, who were the worst force in Iraq that collapsed the least when ISIS was on

the advance. Um, it's overstated how well they did. That's why the YPG needed to rescue the z e s At Sinjar Is. The the Kurdish military in northern Iraq just kind of bounced at that point. But um, you know, I had heard about you know these that that this woman's right situation is great in northern Iraq. It's very egalitarian. There's women fighters, and it is it's certainly and anyone who lives there will tell you much safer and easier

to be a woman. In the KRG, the Kurdish region like control Kurdish Regional Government parts of Iraq than it is further south in the country. But that doesn't mean it's it's good. It is. It is more like certain things are somewhat more tolerated, there's more freedom, but it's still a very traditionalist society. And for example, I didn't

see any female Peshmerga. UM, they did not make much of a presence on the ground and and there there their involvement in the fighting was exaggerated somewhat as part of a conscious pr strategy. UM. As soon as you cross in to northeast Syria, you see women manning and running checkpoints stations you see as you go in because there's like you know, they like you get like passport and stuff like looked at and you get like stamps

and whatnot. When you kind of come into the to the region, UM, you see a lot of women like running that part of the operation. You go in to the actual country itself and there's we we visited a restaurant that was run by a collective of women who had all lost husbands in the fighting. We ran. We went to a farm that was all young women who had left their families who were very traditionalist in their

religious attitude. UM. And and go on independent and of course you see um, female military units and female we saw mixed male and female like military policing units and stuff. And it's it's one of those things that if you are going there kind of with a critical eye to

try and see how extensive the revolution can be. I can't imagine not being convinced of the reality of it, because it's it's just so start well also, Robert, you know, first of all, just to again, you could say a lot about what's going on in in Iraqi Kurdistan, but just to very quickly sum it up, I mean, it is a capitalist petrol state run by a plan the Barzanies, you know who who a crew basically all the wealth to themselves. And you can't even begin to compare it

with with the kind of revolutionary project in Syria. So I mean, I just want to in case so people understand.

I mean, I don't want to use I hate to use the word socialist because it's such a it's so fraught, but you could the closest thing, you know, it's a it's built on a socialist economic model, except a better one, well more like what my father and what Abdullah clan have in mind, which my father called communalism, and this democratic confederalist model is based on cooperatives, you know, where people really do um have the means control the means

production as much as possible. I mean, it's obviously all you know, still in formation, it's still growing and like the energy sector where things that you know are less like that. But are I hope in that direction. Yeah, I mean obviously no, this is certainly not some kind of perfect utopian in the middle of a war zone. But but as you pointed out, what you see when you go there is women so active in every aspect.

I would add to to what the great examples you gave the women's houses to talk about that right where they are literally resolving so many problems for both men and women, you know, at the community level, and and so it's it's really quite an extraordinary you know, I guess what I want to say about it is that like if if we all got on board of you know, one of that that Cretan elon Musk's space ships and found a colony you know where they were doing this,

we'd be cherishing it. We'd be going, oh my god. You know, look at these people. They're like they have a cooperative economy and they have women's councils at every level. Wow, men can't overrule women on a decision that comes to say women's bodies. Think here the Dobbs decision right on the Supreme Court. Women only women can can decide those

issues that are related to women. And there there are councils at every level and people sending delegates, you know, meeting in their little villages and towns and communities and electing delegates to the next level. It is a true grassroots democracy, and it's ecological, and it's feminist. It's like if Ursula La Gwinn we're writing about it and the disgust,

we'd all be going wow. So so really, you know, it's something that I think, especially anybody who considers themselves a feminist, you know, should be supporting and and certainly and I hope all of us do, you know, And and certainly anybody you know I would think who's an anarchist. To me, it's pretty close to an every anarchist's dream,

you know. And and so I think, yeah, I just wanted to make that contrast with Iraq because I think it's really important, really goes to why the Kurdish project really needs very badly the support of people in the United States, because in so many ways, the United States kind of calls the shots about what can and cannot happen over there if you look at the problems they have, you know, to all of that. Because of course, all of these places are not perfect, and have you know,

these serious issues alongside these serious achievements. Every issue that they have is an issue that any society would have if that society had been through ten years of war. Um, we're impoverished and blockaded from virtually all economic activity with the outside world if they had had to not only you know, fight the occupation of a group like ISIS, but then immediately turn around to fight a state army much larger than them, you know, bent on taking and

occupying their territory. A society where people fear going outside because they don't know if they'll be in the wrong place at the wrong time when there'll be a drone strike on a local military leader going around doing their job keeping their communities safe from ISIS, or a local political leader going around doing their job trying to you know,

build this new system. So I think when we look at the flaws, their flaws that are the result of in large part poverty and conflict and all of the compounding crisis crises that the people of North Aneas Syria have to face because of what they've gone through, you know, as Debbie mentioned, much at the hands of larger powers. So much of what happens in Syria is up to what the United States wants, up to what Russia wants,

up to what Turkey wants. UM. All of these countries and regions, you know, with different priorities, different outlooks, but it somehow happens that at the end of the day, you know, the one thing they can all agree on is that, Um, it's okay to sell out the autonomous administration,

It's okay to have consequences for them. You know, if the Courtish people suffer, the zd people suffer, the people of northern East Syria, all of these different demographics, if they're the people who are victimized, you know, because they don't have a state, because they're fighting for something different, because they're challenging the status quo, it's okay if they're the ones who faced the consequences. We saw this, you know,

with what happened with Isis. We saw this with the complete international silence when a fren was invaded, with the you know, piecemeal response that stopped the Turkish invasion in twenty nineteen, but allowed them to convert what they were

doing to this kind of low intensity war. UM. You know, with a terrible ceasefire, you know, with undefined lines, and with these drone strikes being allowed in air is where Russia and the United States, both of which have agreements with Turkey, are active, um, you know, and both of whom tolerate this. So essentially every powerful interest in Syria can agree on, you know, ensuring that the autonomous administration

comes in last. And as people in the US, you know, anyone who considers themselves on the left, who considers themselves a feminist, who cares about persecuted ethnic and religious minorities, who opposes endless war and militarist foreign policy that props up autocrats and you know, props up far right regimes.

Anyone with any of those values should be very concerned about the situation in Northeast Syria right now and should be looking at what we can do to UH, to get our government to stop supporting some of these very harmful policies against the region, you know, even while it

claims to be supporting their fight against isis. What can people listening here, presumably most of you are in the United States or Canada or Western Europe, What can people listening here, particularly in the US, do they have an impact to help. Well, we could talk about that. Um, we could have an entire other podcast episode on that,

because there's a lot to be done. But you know, to summarize in a few words, the way that the United States supports Turkey's war on the Kurdish people, all the peoples of the region and the Kurdish National Liberation movement is through military cooperation and support, through diplomatic cooperation and support, intelligence sharing, and these pro war legal pretexts. So go tell Congress that you don't want them to send weapons to Turkey. There's an EP six team sale

right now. That Um, it was really great to see the majority of Congress in Looting. All of the squad members, people like AOHC. Rashida Talai, Bilhan Omar all opposed that sale. So opposing arms sales very important something that there's momentum there for um and that there's momentum among progressives therefore, which is very heartening. Opposing military aid and security assistance

to Turkey. You know, I've done research on this. U S Security assistance has trained senior Turkish officials, including the country's current defense minister and several perpetrators of the violent repressive nineteen eighty military coup. Obviously, we should not be training coup plotters and war criminals. That is not something I think most people learning this want their tax dollars

to go to. So calling for an end to U S security assistance to Turkey very important in addition to ending those arms sales and challenging the pro war legal pretexts and designations that allowed Turkey to get this kind of Western support. Or you know, a wonderful thing that we saw a couple of weeks back was the Democratic Socialists of America, the largest socialist organization in the US, saying that they oppose the terror designation of the PKK

and believe it should be delisted. That's something that progressive support very strongly. In Europe. We've seen, you know, calls from places like Ireland and South Africa where people know a lot about you know what terror designations and you know, the criminalization of struggles, you know, can can have impacts on conflict resolution. You know, people who participated in these kinds of post conflict processes in some of these places saying get rid of the designation. It's harmful for peace.

You know, it will be difficult to end this less violently without it. So that's something where you know, it seems the international case for it is something that's rather obvious, and where pressure in the US on the US designation to remove it would be an important step for facilitating

dialogue and a negotiated end to this conflict. So understanding how the US supports Turkey's wars on the Kurdish people and opposing all of those different policies and programs as one of the most important things that we can do to say this war is not in our name. We stand with the people of northeast Syria, with the people in Turkey suffering from Turkish authoritarianism, with the people in Iraqi, Kurdistan,

uzd S and Shngal being bombed by Turkish drones. When we say that we don't want to support this war, we stand with all of those people. Um And I think that that kind of action against arms, sales, security assistance, and pro war legal pretexts could be a really great base for solidarity opposing endless war in the Middle East and standing up for you know, peacefully ending this conflict. Um And it would align us with progressives all around the world, and you know, people who really believe in

in peace and in ending these kinds of things. And and if I could just add, you know, one one element to that would also be really pressing for a diplomatic solution to the whole so called Kurdish question, because Rojeva will remain in danger as long as air Dewan and and his and his party think that they can basically that they have to be fighting Kurds because you know, to them, as Megan said before, Rojeva is an extension

of their own Kurds and of the PKK. So what but but what really needs to happen, just as as it happened in South Africa, is there has to be

a negotiated settlement. One of the things that would help with this, and there are movements that people can get involved with if they want, would be free in a Chelan who has been in a sitting in a Turkish jail for the last twenty two years because he is sort of the Nelson Mandela really of of the Kurdish freedom movement, and he's would be involved in these negotiations

and was even while he was in jail. But really, you know, a jail person can't really do that properly, So pressing for a diplomatic solution because basically rat one uses the p k k UM and the listing of the PKK as a terrorist organization to basically kill all Kurds everywhere, and in order to stop that, somehow there

has to be a break in this. And so I think that, you know, people, there are certainly plenty of peace organizations and people who want to work on peace, and I think this is a really important demand that they begin that the United States and the United States has nothing to lose by pressuring Turkey to engage in negotiations with the p k k This is an hour war. The p KK has never done anything to the United States.

It would make, as Megan said, for a lasting peace in the entire Middle East, And would you know, And and so what I would say is, first of all, folks, would be great if people who want more information about any of this could contact the organization that I helped co found, the Emergency Committee for Rojeva, which is at defend Rojeva dot org. And we have scripts to call congress Person's resources and we even have fun monthly meetings

that people can come to. Um you know, and there's of course a lot of information at Megan's website also Kurdish Peace dot org. But you know, one of the things that people could do is go out and talk to their communities, whether it's a religious community or a labor union or a food coop or your kids nursery school or reading group, women's group, and sort of talk and and help because there's a lot of people who

surprisingly really don't know much about Roojeva. I think maybe because they're the cause, the Zabatistas are a little closer geographically that that project is a bit better known, you know, So talking to people and getting people engaged, and for example,

if there's anybody listening from New Jersey. Bob Menendez is the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and he's been pretty hostile towards Air to one and and keeping on him with phone calls emails is a great way, you know, for for our m As somebody who worked in Washington for a while when I worked for Bernie Sanders, I know that these guys listen to their constituents, you know, and if they get enough calls, they start to pay

attention to those things that they come around. We could even get, you know, somebody to send a letter around to their colleagues in Congress saying, you know, it's time to start peace negotiations. Those kinds of things do have impact because, as I said before, unfortunately the United States is really at the helm and on so many ways of what happens internationally in these geopolitical battles. UM. Well, thank you so much, Debbie, Thank you so much, Megan. UM.

I think that's that's going to do it for us today. UM. Please, you know, continue paying attention to this. Um. Did you want to you know, Megan, did you have anything else you wanted to kind of kind of add um or let people know actually both of you would let people know where they can follow you on the internet. Yeah. Well, I mean I think that that about covers it. Look, the only solution for peace, democracy and self determination in Turkey and in the wider Middle East is a just

and democratic, negotiated settlement to the Kurdish question. And I think that just as Debbie said, learn about what's going on, reach out to your communities, talk to your local Kurdish community if there is one, find the opportunities that there are to engage with people in Turkey, in Syria and all of these places, you know, working for peace and standing up for these ideas, and then no efforts too small, because ending this conflict would benefit everyone in Northeast Syria,

everyone in Turkey and all of us here, you know, knowing that our government was no longer supporting this terrible, unjust war. UM, So just get out there and do something. UM. To see the work that the think tank where I work UM is doing on this issue, you can go to Kurdish Peace dot org where we have research and analysis on everything related to do related to the Kurdish issue from all different perspectives, and you can check out

our work there, UM. And you can follow me on Twitter UM Megan Bodette and the Twitter handle is at five underscores m j B excellent. My Twitter is simpler. It's just Debbie book Shin at Debbie book Action. And again I just want to say that you know people we do at defend Rojeva dot org and we're also on Twitter at defend Rojeva. We have so many ideas and so much information about how people can get involved.

Is making said, if nothing else, no more weapons to Turkey until they begin peace negotiations, give Rojeva political recognition, that would be another thing people can be demanding also that curds have a place at the bargaining table and any discussions about the future of Syria. So we have all those kinds of ideas, scripts, as I said, model emails and more at defend Rojeva dot org. Awesome, UM, thank you all for for being on and um, yeah, that's going to do it for us here. It could

happen here for the day. Thank you for having us. Thanks. It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from the cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could happen here, updated monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.