Hey everyone, it's me James today and I'm joined by Hulia Messner from Seawatch. She's one of the spokespeople for sea Watch, your organization at Rescuesditerranean rescuse migrants in the Mediterranean.
Hud Hi, good morning, welcome.
Hi, thank you so much for your invitation.
Yeah, not good money for you.
I guess could you start off by explaining to us perhaps what Seawatch does and why there's a need for it to do that as well.
Yeah, of course. So Seawatch is a civility and search and rescue organization, So we are trying to save people from distress at sea, in the Mediterranean Sea. So you can imagine the situation being very cruel at the European external borders right now. So far more than two two hundred people drowned only this year while trying to flee to the European Union and the area we cover, people are mostly fleeing from Tunisia and Libya for example, to Italy,
but also trying to reach Malta for example. So what we are trying to do is actually really rescuing bar with ships. So currently we have two ships. One is prepared at the moment for its first operation and the second one had just had rescue on the weekend and
is now currently blocked initially. And on the other side, we also have monitoring airplanes surveying the area and trying to monitor the human rights situation over the Mediterranean, and trying to monitor firstly state violence but also secondly trying to give information when the airplanes are finding boats and stress then for people being rescued.
Okay, so there's a lot there. I think that we should probably break down for people. And the first thing I think is you said that one of your boats is blocked.
Now, yes, maybe people won't.
Be familiar with the way that certain European countries have reacted to the migration coming across the Mediterranean, So can you explain what blocking constitute.
Yeah, So in Europe, like since a few years, in several years, we also see an increase in ultra right wing movements and also ultra right governments. So what is happening now, especially in Italy where we are operating from, is that we have a ultra right wing government under the President Georgia Miloney installed and the government is currently trying to hinder civility rescue because it's a way to
actually hinder and also block migration. So in the beginning of the year, for example, there was a decree put in place that really makes it so much harder for us to operate. And at the moment after our rescue on the weekend, we are blocked for twenty days, meaning that we cannot go out and do our usual work in the Mediterranean, but our ship has to stay import because Italian authorities are claiming that we violated the decree, which is actually going against international law.
Yeah.
So I think when you say that they're trying to hinder migration in the Mediterranean, that's quite a nice way of saying, I guess, because what this means is that they are making that migration even more dangerous than it already is by not allowing people to be rescued. Right, and as you said, it's already incredibly dangerous, and the more.
Correct the Mediterranean Sea is a graveyard. Like as I said, more than twenty two hundred people died this year only crossing, and thousands of people died since twenty and fourteen. Like numbers can be seen like with the IUMS or the
International Organization of Migration for example, that I'm monitoring. Also the situation in the central and from Mediterranean and what this place or this external border actually constitute constitutes is a crime scene, a crime scene again for crimes against humanity because state states are like purposefully, really intentionally letting people drown.
Yeah, and yeah, it's tragic, it's really horrible.
Can you explain a little bit about like the way that I guess just the mechanics of people crossing the vessels they use, where they like the journey, people have seen the Mediterranean at all, like depending on where they live. Obviously they might live on the med but if they don't know, maybe they've seen beaches and beach holidays in Spain or something. And obviously that's that's not all of it. So can you explain a little bit about the conditions of the crossing.
Yeah, so people are all people that we rescue mostly are trying to flee from Tunisia as well as Libya. So the situation in Libya, for example, is really horrible. It's very violent. There's a lot of documentation of torture camps, of rape, of murder, of a slave trade, and people that comes come from the sub Sahuaran region and are trying to flee to the European Union, are crossing Libya, for example, but also in Tunia. At the situation at
the moment is very dire. Is it's very racist. There's like racist a violent campaign started by the Tunisian president in the beginning of the year especially, so we see a lot of institutional racism. We see a lot of racism and also a lot of violence on the streets. So people are really trying to flee from the country, and people are using all means possible, of course, because they have to. There's no easy way to come to Europe.
Then people fleeing cannot just take a train or an airplane actually and then like trying to reach shores of the European Union, of a boat is they are only mean, so they're really forced to do that. And boats that are used are for example inflatable boats, but also metal boats. And these metal boats especially are very very dangerous because they are only constructed really not in good conditions, so they're really easy to sink. So as soon as water
comes in, these boats are actually thinking. So people are also mostly not wearing life wests, so it's really dangerous. Like the number of people on the boat is way too high for their capacities. So most boats as soon as they go on to see they are actually in the stress and they are in need of rescue.
Okay, Yeah, and then let's talk about some of the rescues that see what has been able to do, because some of them have resulted in the really big numbers of people you've been able to save. Right, I think there was one in twenty seventeen, which is fifty something people, Is that right?
Yeah, I mean could very well be seventeen. I didn't work with sewers, so I don't know which rescue me you mean exactly. But for example, just now on the weekend, we rescued seventy two people actually out of distress at sea with our ship Aurora.
Okay, so let's talk about like what that rescue looks like. I guess what happens is maybe they the aircraft spot so the ship is in distress.
Is that right? And then your ship can respond and go to them.
Yeah. For example, there's also another organization it's called alarm Phone. They are like a distress hotline where people in distress at seek and call, and they are also giving them the information to all ships in the area and of
course two authorities. So on the weekend our Aurora actually first supported another civil search and rescue ship from Open Arms with their rescue and then was led to this particular distress case also with the help of our monitoring flights operations which are called airborne and the people were
then rescued on Friday, as said seventy two people. And then normally what you have to do is of course informed of the competent authorities in the area, so state authorities, and according to international law then state authorities have to coordinate the rescue. So we of course communicated, communicated with authorities, and authorities only after a while actually assigned us to
the port of Trapani. So Trapani is in Sicily, on the island of Sicily, and it was much farther away than the nearest port, which was on the island of lamp Dous. So you have to imagine, of course, distraits and the rescue cases are very dangerous situations and people of course need immediate support and need immediate transfer to the land where medical help can like intensely happen etc. Because people might be on sea for several days, they might be in psychological but as well in physical pain
and stress. They might have burns from actually a fuel and sea water mixed, for example, And of course dehydration is a very very big danger and risk for people in distress at sea. So after we rescued and after we got assigned the port of Trapany, we made very clear to the authorities that Trapani is way too far and that according to international law we need to go to a lump producer because it's the most suitable nearest pool.
But then we got noticed that we are not allowed to go to lumproducer actually, and that meant that we were in total forced to stay on sea for thirty seven hours, and also for those people in distress and rescued, they were forced to stay more than twenty four hours additionally on sea, like having to really door doors, really difficult, this really difficult situation. The next day Saturday, we were still on see the sun like really burned relentlessly by
that point, and people were facing dehydration. One person actually faded, and it became really increasingly dangerous the situation on board, which is why we community communicated more and more with authorities and they were then forced after a while to let us enter to lump producer because the situation was really dire and people needed to disembark, disembark on land.
Yeah, I think that's a really good summation of like some of the sort of like hostility you encounter from states. Another thing that see what she's encountered, at least in the past is either negligence or like interference by state agencies at sea. I'm not sure if it's a navy or the coast guard. I think it was maybe the coast guard, the Libyan coast Guard who had interfered with a rescue And this may have been before you started to It's find it.
Yeah, the so called Libyan Coast Guard is Anya is an actor that is really violent, violently intercepting people that are trying to reach European shores and are also violently interfering with rescues of civil search and rescue ships. So we saw for example, shooting like shootings in the air, like in the direction of our airplanes, but also in direction of other search and rescue ships. For example, we saw intimidations, We saw violations of international law and human
rights by the so called Libyan Coast Guard. Because what is happening is that the European States, the European Union is actually supporting the socoed Libyan Coast Guard to intercept people at sea, so to really block people from getting to the European Union.
Yeah, and it seems to be like a strategy throughout the European Union, right. It's rather than supporting people as they come, making this journey less dangerous, that they're trying everything they do to keep people in North Africa to stop them coming to Europe at all.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We see this on a very practical level in the Mediterranean Sea. But we also see this on a political level, so with externalization policies, with deals with Tunisia, for example, just recently there has been a deal between the European Union and Tunisia with a lot of money involved to actually trying to block migration again and to increase the support for the Tunisian Coast Guard for example. But we also see a lot of political
talks between Italy and Libya. Libya is also now a former colony of Italy, so there's very close ties and ties and a lot of influence. And just a couple of days ago there was the transfer of two ships from Italy to the so called Libyan Coast Guard. So they really also yeah, supporting this very violent, very dangerous actor with technical means.
Yeah.
And obviously, like people who listen to all our episodes will be aware, like there's increased violence in the Sahel. There's not a large shale protests in Syria this week, it's not as if the people will. There will still be dangerous situations for people to flee. And what the EU is doing is making that dangerous journey more dangerous, rather than sort of accepting that it's a thing that happens to humans and trying to make it less deadly.
Yeah. Absolutely, And it's like it's a very politically induced situation and we are like the European Union is supporting human rights crimes, Like with the money of the European Union, human rights crimes are actually committed. So a couple of weeks ago, we saw the quotations from Tunian authorities of people on the move to the Tunisian Libyan border, so to the desert, and people were actually left there to die. Literally.
Another way that you guys encountered state level hostility is with these legal actions right that have been taken against you against Seawatch against individuals who are part of sea watching, against vessels that seawatch aren't. Can you explain some of those.
Yeah, So for example, I mean the most recent one with the blockade of our ship, so it's blocked like according to state authorities because we or they claim we violated the Italian decree that I just talked about, and they actually said that we had to request a pot in Tunisia and bring people back to Tunisia, which would have been completely against international law because Tunisia cannot be considered a safe board or a safe country of origin. So now we are in the process of like waiting
for the Aurora actually to be de blocked again. But also Italian authorities of course trying to criminalize person like persons. For example, in the case of Cabula Rakta, who was a captain with us in twenty nineteen and who who had to enter also the port of Lamproducer because of the very very difficult situation on board, because the ship was forced to stay several days really on the Mediterranean Sea and the situation became very dire. So there was
also proceedings against her in person. So really people that are trying to show solidarity and support people on the move to claim their human right to claim asylum are criminalized on the basis of the accusations that are just completely not true. A Cabula racter, for example, was also like, all the charges against her were dismissed, there was no legal ground for them.
Yeah, but they're harassment obviously still hinders your work, right even if the charges are dismissed, like the time that the ship can't go out.
Yeah, absolutely, And it also is also a means to like to to implement fear now in people's minds, because of course it is super scary to be to be accused by a state to have actually violated law and you are facing charges of years in prison and like only that fear can already do a lot. But we
don't only see this in Italy. We also see this a lot in Greece, for example, a country which is also really trying to criminalize humanitarian and political or like, yeah, humanitarian workers that are standing in solidarity with people on the wolf. Yeah.
And so people might not be as familiar with the landscape migration, So maybe you could just explain, like where the boats are based, because you talked about Greece, so I know that that Maltese authorities are also like what cases against seawatch? Can you explain the different landscape I guess of where your boats are based and where they tend to sort of end up relocating or taking people to once they've been rescued.
Well, we take people who've been who's been, who've been rescued a lot to Italy, but we're also of course trying to coordinate with Maltese authorities who author the legal responsibility to take people in that Maltese authorities or Malta the state is actually really irresponsive, so we really see as little engagement of the country as possible. We see
a lot of hindering of migration. We see very special cases with Malta where Malta Maltese authorities are actually, for example, communicating to merchant vessels who are finding or who are in vicinity of distress cases that they should just hand out fuel to the boats or hand out water. So those distress cases, those boats are actually making their way to Italy on their own, so they are out of Maltese responsibility.
Oh wow, yeah, so it's kind of passing the back along. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just so sad and how similar so much this is to the way the US deals with people coming across our land the border, which is often dear to say they have they've built them back to Mexico, which again is a violation of international law and it's not
a safe place. And again people in the US have been criminalized for providing drinking water to people in the desert, right, and even if it doesn't work, it scares people.
Yeah, And it's like, definitely, it's not only a European kind of situation. It's the situation at borders in general, because borders are in the end an like a construct to yeah, to safeguard in like like I don't know how to say, like in the coordination marks, you're a parent.
Space, yes, exactly, Yeah, and to kind of yea, I know, enforce some kind of notion who's in, who's out, and who's the other and who's the same. I wonder one thing that people will be wondering is obviously see watches a large scale operation with quite substantial assets, and people may be wondering, how you see which funded? How do you get you know, you need experienced captains, you need maybe people who experienced in rescue operations that see pilots.
So where do all these people come from?
Well, like they come I mean also from the general public. We have so many volunteers that are working with us. Really also we have people that are writing us and trying, like trying to support, and of course like everybody can or anyone can have a look at the website. We have job offers on the website usually as well, and like if you want to support, really have a look and also try to reach out in case of any questions.
And like Seawatch and also other civil sea rescue organizations are really sustaining themselves and are financed by donations, So we are solely financed by donations and we are really like trying to keep the work up as much as much as possible. And we have lots of different opportunities as well to support not only by working with us, but also in spreading our message on social media. So that's maybe the easiest for everyone who has social media accounts.
Just like search Seawatch and you'll probably find our accounts on Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook, but also on TikTok for example. Like inform yourself, educate yourself, and share the message, talk to your families while having dinner, talk to your friends, and also support really self organized groups of people on the move. So for example, you can inform yourself by finding refugees in Libya the group or refugees in Tunisia on Twitter and they are actually talking about their situation
in the country. But also like like on on miggrassion groups.
Yeah, I wonder like talking about refugees in Tunisia and Libya has sort of reminded me. Recently we discussed on an episode like the presences of Wargner Group in Africa right, specifically they've been in Libya before, they are now in the Sahel in Central Africa Republic, in different places, and how people have reacted very differently to presences of Wagner Group in Ukraine to the presences of Wagner Group in Africa.
And I wonder, like, this isn't to say that people I don't want to be construed to saying that people shouldn't have solidarity with people fleeing contract conflict in Ukraine, because they should and those people have every right to a safe place too, But has there been a change in the tone or the just the material support for you guys, since the conflict in the Ukraine grew broader of the Donbatson crimera into the full scale invasion.
I mean, we see like we are in a situation of like multiple crises. Now. Of course we saw the invasion of Russia in Ukraine, but we're also we're facing climate change, We're facing dire economical situations, et cetera. So also our generations went down in the in the past year, definitely, but we are still also are so lucky to have like a very strong solid solidary basis of people supporting us. So I think it's like it's kind of both a little bit.
Yeah, I always think like with respect to the solidarity, I've never really seen like every time so that there's a larger scale crisis at the southern border of the United States right like recently the United States government, very similar to what you were describing, was keeping people in the open desert and leaving them there for days without food or water, and hundreds of people mobilized to help them, people who you might not expect to be particularly radical
in their politics or you know, in sort of direct action people, but they were great and everyone helped and answer result no one died. One young woman died in Texas in CBP custody, And like I always think if people could see it, then, like you were saying, they can see your videos, people, there's a very human response to never want that to happen to another human being. It's just hard when there's so much going on.
Yeah, and also it's I think it's completely understandable that we, like not every person can concern themselves with all the topics, all the crisis situations we're facing right now, and like no one expects that of us, but we can expect of states because it's stay of duty that like they are taking care of people actually and they are really trying to set the base for everyone to like to
claim the human rights. And it states themselves that actually like wrote down those human rights because of a certain situation.
So I mean, especially in Europe, we really have like we're just considering our history, is just considering the history of Germany were just like it's it's platant ignorance and also completely against any historical evidence, against any historical work we've done, what the situation now is and what we're actually doing at the external borders, like committing human rights crimes and like ignoring the situation actually like increasing the
dangers for people on the move on daily basis. And I think, I mean it's not only I mean you also mentioned this before now, like it's also a situation you're facing in the US, and we really have to like build strong transnational movements and strong transnational ties to like work against state violence order violence in general.
Yeah, I think that's an excellent point that this is part of a broader kind of state violence that everyone should be opposed to, Like it hurts everyone in the end. And yeah, as both of us being European people, we've seen that like very obviously, but we know government seem
to have forgotten. One thing that you mentioned that I wanted to talk about before we finished was climate change because you said, you know, we obviously like the it's very hard for someone living in Europe or North America this year to pretend that climate change isn't happening, like
with soaring temperatures, hurricane in California, wildfires everywhere. Can you explain a little bit because I think one thing that people fail to connect is and maybe that's largely due to not bad reporting perhaps, but like it doesn't get mentioned in reporting when we talk about migration, we don't talk about climate change, and we talk about climate change
and talk about migration. But the two go hand in hand, right, Like the people, certainly many of the people I see our southern border coming from areas most affected by climate change? Is that something that see what sees too like as parts of the world that are more marginal for people to live in get even harder to live in, those people coming being forced to leave.
I guess well, let's.
Look at the science now and research and like, millions and millions of people more will be possibly because of climate change in the next in the next years. We can't deny that fact. And we as European states and European societies are a big part of why this is actually happening and why climate change is increasing in the in the speed that it is increasing right now. So we have a huge responsibility to take care and like
to support people actually on the move. And I mean as seawatch, we don't make any difference as of why people are fleeing, people are in distress at see people are being rescued. That's it. That's the only responsible like, that's the only perspective we have supporting people that are in distress at SEE, because if you are calling an ambulance, they also don't ask, oh, hey, why are you actually calling the ambulance, like did you? And why are you
in this situation? The ambulance is just coming. And this is this should also be always the case in the Mediterranean.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, or anywhere else people at SEE. So I wonder, like the last couple, I think they wanted to ask you more broad but you spoke earlier about the rise of right wing governments and movements in Europe, and when we obviously talk about the history of the right wing in Europe and we think about fascism, and I know people who listen to this podcast will be very invested in like their their history and current struggle
of anti fascism. And would you say it was fair it would be fair to cast what see, what she's doing within the broader spectrum of opposing fascism or opposing I guess of nationalist state violence, right wing state violence.
Absolutely, we are part of antipascious movement. We are antifascists by court, so we definitely define ourselves as antifacious activists.
Yeah, nice and I wonder that I think that people want to show the solidarity you mentioned some ways. Is there anything in particular, like I know people have contacted me about volunteering for SEE which before en have directed them to your website, but when we do have a lot of listeners in Europe and they are particular things
that you're looking for in volunteers. Obviously, anyone can donate and they should if they have money, but what are you as are certain qualifications you desperately need or.
So I mean, we of course always looking for people that are supporting our operations in especially on sea, but also with our airplanes of course, So if you have qualifications or other qualifications that allow you to go to see and sale, or engineering qualifications for example, or medical qualifications as well. We're always looking for nurses for doctors supporting on the ships. Then please just like have a
look at the website and reach out. We have a specific form as well where you can just also sign in for interest basically, and then our crewing department takes care and sees like who and like when it's actually fitting.
Okay, yeah, that's great.
Please people can reach out and before we finish up, is there anything else that you'd like to share with people that you think we haven't got to.
I think we didn't talk about frontexts for example, or.
Oh yeah, let's do it. Do you explain frontext to people.
Yeah, So FRONTICS is the European border protection agency so called actually of course GOD and Border agency and FRONTICS is also surveying and working on the Mediterranean Sea and like responsible for for border protection specifically in general, or it actually has a double mandate, so border protection on the one side, but also coast guard duties Europeans on the other side. What we criticize is of course that FRONTEXS does so called border protection and does not actually
support people on the movement, people in distress. So this double mandate does not work at all. We see a lot of non coordination, a lot of a lot of non information and also a lot of violence of context. So for example, FRONTECS or there was a report from Human Rights Watch, for example, and that fontext is complicit in pullbacks by the so called Libyan Coast Guard because there is actually communication between FONTECS and the so called Libyan co GOD and the so called Libyan cost Guard.
Cost Guard can then detect boats in the stress their location with this information but provided by FONTICS and bring people or force people back to Libya for example. So Fantacics is really an actor that we criticize hugely and that we actually working towards their abolishment because how the organization or the institution is working right now does not have anything to do with the legal rights of people.
Yeah, and people will.
We spoke with Ruth Kinner, who who's a professor in love for about lifeboats in the UK, because the UK has a notionally it has a very real distinction between rescuing people at sea and doing border reinforcement and those
two different things. Yeah, yeah, if people like It's also in Crop Parkins book Mutual eight, he talks about the value of like lifeboats and volunteer organs such as your own, that it's very foundational to people talk a lot about mutual aid, but this is like one of the I guess, like foundational examples of it, and so like, can you explain what a better system? And obviously I'm not asking you to like solve all the world's problems, but like
would what would it? We can make relatively few changes, I guess and make this so much more humane and not have someone's little children around in the Mediterranean. So I don't know, people don't have to live next to someone who speaks a different language from them, or whatever people's fears are of migrants, can you explain what that would look like.
I mean, we need freedom of movement, that's for sure. Like and this is also one of our basic demands. We need freedom of movement for everyone. We need people to have legal and safe pathways through Europe, so safe passage.
We need a system that, in accordance to the needs and the wants of people, people are actually also redistributed over the European Union and like can join the family members for example, or their friends, their support systems while trying to flee violence, while trying to flee from places where they cannot live in the end, So this is really like what we are focusing on in the end to have people coming to Europe through safe passages. So
and this is really what needs to be established. And of course in this current situation, as a first step, we need a European coordinated search and rescue program with the only mandate to rescue votes in distress, to rescue people in distress to actually make sure that the situation, the death trap that the Mediterranean Sea is actually constituting at the moment, stops, Like this situation has to stop immediately.
Yeah, and it could stop very quickly, right, the level of resources at states have available to deploy, they could make this go away very quickly.
I think they could if they wouldn't be a focused on externalization and blocking people to come.
Yeah, and I think, like, I know, when you think about that, that's a conscious choice and the results of that, it's very very sad. And I mean in the UK we seem to just talk about it openly now, like they have whole campaigns about stopping small boats. But yeah, I think people need to realize that it's not boats that they're stopping. It's little children that they're consigning to risking their lives.
Yeah, children, it's women, it's men, it's non binary persons, it's everyone who wants to reach safety, and everyone deserves to be rescued. Everyone deserves to be to live nor questions asked.
Yeah, No, I think that's a wonderful place to end. Actually, I think it's a hard statement to disagree with. Can you what are your Twitter handles where can people find and follow seawatch Swatch group. Okay, and that's all over, that's your U r L as well.
Yeah, so let me have a look. So I'm not saying saying anything wrong, but seewatch crew so at seawatch Crew on together and US and small is actually our German account and our international account is at seawatch underline into I n t L for international and then we also have an Italian account for all Italian speakers.
Okay, perfect, Yeah, we'll make sure that we link to those two. And thank you very much for your time this afternoon, your time, morning, my time.
Thank you so much for the request and for talking to us.
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