Mutual Aid Disaster Relief During Hurricane Ian

We're going to talk about how we can solve these things without necessarily giving a bunch of money to the wrong people, and people can help people in a way that is natural, organic and good for everyone. So Jimmy and Rain say hi everybody. Hello, Hey, and can you explain to us a little bit first of all, about what mutual Aid Disaster Relief is and how it operates in these natural disasters. Sure, Mutual Aid Disaster Relief is a people power disaster relief network based on the principles

of solidarity, mutual aid and autonomous direct action. And we act as a Swiss army knife for the larger autonomous disaster response and mutual aid movements UH and work with UH affinity groups, local mutual aid groups UH and other disaster survivors to help form and foster a communal recovery. That sounds great, that's very inspiring. Can you explain, maybe for listeners who aren't familiar, exactly what mutual aid means in this context? Sure, mutual aid is a voluntary, reciprocal,

participatory exchange among equals. It's about sharing resources, but it's also about sharing power. I'll spend a lot of my life in poverty, and I know that many people in the same experiences would rather not receive something than receive something. To the downward gaze if if something costs us our dignity, the it's not worth it um. And so mutual aid is a way to share with each other UH, where we're UM sharing as equals UM instead of a powerful

giver of aid a powerless receiver of aid. And it also has the dynamic of addressing the root causes of the need in the in the first place. Okay, that's yeah, that's really that's a good description, Thank you very much. What what you've done recently, right is responded to Hurricane Ian, which most people I think will know hit Florida and I think the Carolinas after that. Can you take us through some of the work that you've been doing down there? Sure.

A lot of what I've been involved in it supplies distribution. Uh. So we're um every day loading up vehicles and going doing mobile distribution to trailer parks, to public housing apartments, uh, and other communities that are hit and historically you know, left out of top down uh really models, um, and providing tarps, water, food, other essentials that people need. Yeah, sure, that's very important. What's the situation like where now what like a with ten days out something like that from

when the hurricane first made landfall? Is that right? I'm not sure exactly right? Do you know? Yeah? No, time, time is not a thing when this is happening. It's just kind of like all of the days go together, or nights or both. Yeah. Yeah, that's yeah, that's totally fine. So what's it? You know? Um, in some places power is starting to get turned back on. Gas is easier to find than it was you know, several days ago. Um, but there's still, um, you know, like a lot of

need for solidarity based relief. There's uh just like every disaster, there's uh many communities that are left behind, um and it's the same communities that are left behind by the disaster of capitalism and colonialism and white supremacy, and so you know, even though power is starting to get turned back on in some places, it's gonna be months or years,

you know before people recover from this. Yeah, there's a lot of folks that are not UM like to me he's talking about, there's folks that are renters who you know, don't don't know what they're supposed to do with their with the apartment that they're in, the roof is caving in, and if the landlord is not responding, then what are they supposed to do. So if there's folks on the ground, they go in and they'll try to like help get the tarp up, you know, on the roof and things

like that. So that's usually the kind of stuff I'm involved with when I'm when it's happening more in my area.

But there's a lot of us that are working like remote as well to help support on the ground, like doing colms and organizing supply lines through the Autonomous Supply line chain that we have and just kind of trying to mobilize more affinity groups in the local areas like food not um sitting bombs came down and helped out and did a food chair, and so just trying to get everybody who's close by to be able to address the immediate needs and start planning for the long term

because Jimmy is right, it's gonna take years. Yeah, that's really fascinating. I think you're right that often like and I think we should contrast actually that like that they sort of don the large global nonprofit model or the service provider model that they contrast with this, right, which often kind of floods an area with resources whether or not it needs them, and then withdrawals kind of once attention is going to when people are left to rebuild

their lives kind of on their own. Right. Yeah. Yeah, time and time again, Um, from Hurricane Katrina to Hurricane Maria. You know, a rain you know, uh In in Louisiana has experienced a number of hurricanes, you know, in recent years. Um, you know, time and time again, we we we had we learn over and over again that the state is not coming to save us. The market is not going to save us. The nonprofit industrial complex, it's not going to save us. We have to save each other. We

have to take care of each other from below. Yeah, I think it's very true. I remember in Suppose eighteen, when the last seven mid terms came, there was a large migrant caravan that came to Tijuana, which is just south of where I live, and there are a number of these big international nonprofits, but they weren't actually allowed to enter the area where these people were. So you had these people in a football stadium and you had large nonprofits outside, and they cut off the water to

the place where these people work. They wanted them to go somewhere else, And it was this bizarre scene where you had tens of hundreds of thousands of dollars of resources sitting outside, and then you had little children who hadn't had a drink of water that day sitting inside. And it was really illustrative to me of how these massive nonprofits can raise a ship ton of money and still completely failed people when they need help the most. So it's great that you guys are out there doing that.

Can you take us through some of you You mentioned Hurricane Katrina, You mentioned being in New Orleans, like, can you take us through some of the other natural disasters and how you've helped. UM well, UH in when we first kind of got our paperwork, UM official or whatever, we had the flood in Plant Rouge and Louisiana, and it was one of the most historic floods since like

the early nineteen and it barely made the news. And there were several of the major floods that happened the climate caused floods in the Midwest that UM summer that barely made the news. And now people are starting to talk about it, right, starting to talk about climate change because it's inevitable. Every single disaster is you know, more just more and more frequency or higher intensity storm, more

rainfall in a shorter amount of time. And so we had that flood and we hit the ground pretty much running, just doing lots of bucking and gutting and organizing a lot of folks coming up from UH Texas and south in like New Orleans area and you know east from Florida all the way over Mississippi. UM. And then, like Jimmy said, we just kept getting hit and hit. I can't even remember everything after that. I knew there was IRMA, and we responded to IRMA. We had national colms running UM,

which was really cool. People were signing up for workships and helping out on the ground while people were running around and UM getting transportation and getting people out of places, delivering supplies, helping you know, again with tarping or like things that might have happened homes UM. And then we've had Maria. I went down to Puerto Rico for that UM and helped out with some of the solar and

water issues there. And then we have Laura and Harvey and I cannot even remember all of them at this point in Fiona, they just all they're all gonna keep coming either into the Gulf or they're going to head along the East coast because of the way that the climate has affected the current and the surface water temperatures in the Gulf and the Atlantic. Yeah, and like you say, they're going to have a disportionate impact on people who

are already marginalized. What is it you're talking about people signing up for work? That's interesting? So do you seems like you're mostly a volunteer organization to people who have special skills. Just got up to a website and say Hey, I'd like to help, or how does that work? It happens in a lot of ways. Sometimes folks will reach out via the email on the website, um, or they'll reach out on one of the social media or they'll know somebody and be like, hey, I want to get involved.

Um that's really grassroots. Some people are in the ground. There's a lot of folks that have gotten involved more long term because um, you know, there was a response on the ground in their area. They kind of got into it just because that's you know, what ends up happening when there's no one else around, you rely on each other and you old that community. It's kind of it's kind of just what happens. Yeah, that makes sense.

So what's your sort of national Do you have a sense of how many people, how many volunteers you have on a nationals I'm guessing your national or international scale? Now it varies, you know, like in in times of you know, when you know, between disasters, uh, you know there's you know, dozens of people involved or you know,

like a hundred or two hundred, um. But then we're very you know, participatory and UM, so when a disaster happens, you know there's a lot more people involved, hundreds and thousands of people that participate in one way or another.

Like in Louisiana, we've had um a lot of different like ds A groups or s r A groups come out and help out, like mobilies on the ground and kind of come out as infinity groups and do different jobs, help out with different homes, and so really it's just like it's an network of facilitating anyone who's interested in ensuring that all of us have what we need when we know the response is going to be slow from those that are supposed to be handling that quote unquote right,

And then you guys can connect people with skills or people with time to people who need help. Yeah, there really anybody who had skill of any kind or is welcome. That's great. Yeah, where can they find that people do want to sign up? I guess the easiest way would be yet, I don't know, Jimmy money. I'm on the ground a lot. Check out our website mutual A Disaster Relief dot org and our emails mutual A Disaster Relief

at gmail dot com. We're on all the social media's as well, and yeah, we we love it when folks UH reach out to us and tell us how they want to be involved. I wanted to ask you there are obviously some other organizations who, like maybe I would name it, you can if you want to, who have received a lot of national press for doing helping people in times of disaster, and maybe you can explain a while, like some folks wouldn't necessarily be comfortable asking them for

help or going to them if they needed help. Yeah, UM, so oftentimes, uh, you know, you know, like organizations you know, UM, you know, top down organizations. You know, they partner with you know, police or homeland security or carcetoral institutions like that. There's um a shelter after um uh, when Hurricane Michael

hit the Panhandle. UM, you know, people who had warrants you know, we're we're signed into the shelter and then police came and scoop them up and brought them to um, you know, to jails, into prisons and you know, so you know, UM and also you know, even with with you know, with those you know, extreme situations aside. UM.

You know, the the top down approach is patronizing, it's stigmatizing. It. UM can um at sometimes provide the water, the food that that people need but oftentimes comes at a too high of a cost. Uh, and people long for a communal recovery. That's how we heal from disasters like this, from crises events is being part of, you know, a communal recovery. We're all able to pitch in and receive what we need and and give what we can. Yeah, can you tell us can you give U an example

of a communal recovery, like that's something that's happened somewhere. Well, you guys have been able to assist a community or a community be able to assist a family or into

Julian recovering. Yeah. Um. One one example that I think it's really representative of of our approach is UM there there there's a family who who was evicted you know, the um illegally you know, after after a disaster, and uh that you know, single mom was looking after the other single moms, making sure they had you know, uh fuel for you know, their generators to um you know, to power their their phone in different different devices, and that they had diapers, and that they had you know

what what they needed to get by even though you know, they no longer had a roof over their head and so when mutual a disaster relief comes across people like this, our resources are their resources, you know. So so when we both local mutual aid groups, just the matriarchal the block who's taken care of of of the other folks on the block, mutually disastually exists to uh to share you know, um this this network of supplies and labor and you know, back up and support with with efforts

like that that are spontaneous that arise after every crisis. Okay,

that makes sense. The LA's the thing I really wanted to get to here was like, as you mentioned climate changes causing these natural disasters and the worst that things get than the worst that things get, and like you guys have started this organization that helps people to help people, and I'm wondering, like what a like, how can people organize to help and be How can people in communities organize to be more resilient and in the time when

natural disasters becoming more and more commonplace. So one of the things that I think what Jimmy spoke to regarding like a matriarch on the black building, that community in advanced and after if it happens to just be after, which is kind of what happens a lot of times is when it's that forced um, I don't want to say forced, but out of necessity, right, Like necessity is the mother of invention, right, And so there's these iterations

of what community can become. Every time there's a disaster, there's like a clean slate and there's a vacuum in which something can be created because there maybe nothing. And so if you can see an opportunity and if you if you have any kind of network on the ground, or you it spontaneously rupts, then that can be the new growth or the like or however you want to phrase it. But I think for the resiliency to happen, that solidarity in the long term is built from those

networks on the ground. There's people recognizing each other and seeing each other. And I think COVID is so interesting because people have become so nuclear and like isolated the technology and then forced into these pods of technology and that was the only way people existed, and then all of a sudden there was this need to be around people like people like no, no, no, I really want like human contact. And so I think that kind of speaks to the reality of what we need to survive

and that's going to be through disasters, through pandemics. So building them, building a community garden, like saying hey to your neighbor, finding out who on your street is like an elder and maybe doesn't have anybody checking up on them, Like knowing what is in your what are the resources, whether it's people, whether it's a food bank, whether it's like a water fountain, Like, what are the resources in your area? And where can you spontaneously take over areas

when something happens. There's so many empty lots, different places that are you know, really on the verge of being genderfed it and when something happens, if you can help in the areas where you can maybe take over a building, that would help maintain that building for the persons who

would otherwise be getting pushed out soon. Right, Like we've worked with people that allow us to set up school libraries, for example, in their areas while we're while we're doing disaster response, and we helped build that house or that community center for that school up while we're there and creating a community space for people to then run with that concept of what they wanted to build, like what

they wanted to put there. The best way you know to prepare for disasters is ongoing mutual aid projects and groups and efforts. You know, the more that we can connect with each other, those relationships and those connections, they're the groundwork for uh A vibrant people power disaster response. You gotta know who's who. You gotta know what we are are able to be wanting to do. You know, what are people's strengths. It really is about that resiliency.

Knowing who you can count on for something like who knows about you know, wiring, who knows about plumbing, who knows about you know the streets, who knows the area the best? You know, certain members in the community that are founders in the community that others will respond to

or navigate or gravitate too. I got you. Yeah, Yeah, that makes a lot of sense that, Like, I think it's really interesting to contrast this with the model of like surviving natural disasters that we've seen portrayed so often, especially on like TV shows like Preppers, right, which is like I will sit on my own with a ship ton of ammunition and shoot anyone who comes off to my realm and noodle castle. But what are you gonna do? With that when your supplies right now, then when you

who are you going to rely on? All we have is each other? We're not, We're not. I mean more power to the you know, outlier in the visual out there that can literally do everything for themselves. But I just don't think that's humanities function we have. We have much more UM when we share with each other um than we have individually. When we pull our resources together,

we have enough for everybody. Uh. We you know, we take what is in our cabinets, you know, as far as food or sup supplies, we take what's in our medicine cabinets. We make it liberated communal uh space and supplies and and very quickly thinks snowball and uh small first aisation becomes a wellness center or a clinic. And and and that's you know the power of of sharing with each other and building building alternative infrastructure infrastructure together.

And the alternative infrastructure for me is really important to UM. I think for us to be resilient, we we have to teach each other the skills. We have to start learning the ways in which we will be able to actually build back the way we want the way we foresee our communities to be whatever that looks like. But we need those skills if we are going to divest,

if we are going to have autonomy. Yeah, I really like that model of thinking of your natural disasters like an opportunity to rebuild in a more a more equal way, rather than thinking of it it's the thing which just has knocks down the you know, the amount of stuff you've accumulated or whatever, instead of seeing it as an opportunity is really positive. It is an opportunity to reevaluate, is an opportunity to see each other, to see your neighbor.

It's an opportunity to be more sustainable in the rebuild, which is the thing that I really struggle with in a lot of responses. Um it is just the dependency on the existing supply chains and the existing methods of transportation like that, that whole needs to be addressed for resiliency in the future. There's got to be the entire real world of how we respond in some ways in general. Yeah, divest the way we want, No, I think that's the

sustain ability thing. It's just reminded me of something which like, for whatever reason, I bought one back last time. I was somewhere, but people can't see this being an audio podcast. But one of the things you often see in natural disasters is these things that are called humanitarian daily rations and it's like a it's like an m R E. And it comes in a pink packet and everything else comes in the packet, and like it's within like two days.

And obviously this is a time when like sort of systems for disposing of rubbish have been overwhelmed within two days, these things and the foil packets and little brown spirits of fucking everywhere, and it's just it It always strikes me as so sad that like we've taken this time when people are in crisis, and we've made a time when also that their environment is in crisis now as well. Yeah, and a lot, and that's one of the things I struggle with um with water as well. Water is kind

of like my ing. I know, the irony, but um, when whenever there's a response, there's a heavy dependency on bottled water and there's other alternatives, but it would require you know, a little bit of advanced skill training, a little bit of advanced infrastructure development, but that response could be prepared in advance and I think in in some cases there's communities, especially in the local South, where that advanced thinking about it's gonna happen, Right, It's gonna happen here, right,

it's gonna it's gonna have what's gonna happen everywhere in the Gulf coast, and it's going to keep going up and up. And whether it's a fire, whether it's a hurricane, whether it's a massive tornado, whether it's to drought in a food shortage, or a pandemic, if we're not thinking in advance and be just and I don't want to sound like you know, necessarily prepper individualistic, but as a community thinking in advance, like for example, small plug but cooperation.

Jackson is thinking about building um their own water infrastructure so that they are not going to be dependent on just municipal water, which is yeah, I mean why not even if it's small scale, why not start developing community owned micro grids, water treatment facilities. Why is it just capital large capital? Like Jimmy said, we're stronger together. So if we pull together in these communities stout just like old school see essays we can do that, then we can.

Essentially it's an it's another opportunity divested to build it ourselves. We can do it before, we could do it after. But I think for resiliency for me, finding ways around those existing models and supply lines is critical to avoid the gap in the disaster and the response. Yeah, talk us through a community on water sustainable water project like that, like what does that look like, what are the what are the components of it? It would So that's a

fabulous question, um. But it's also when that I personally can't answer. I can because I'm not the entire community. So there's so many questions that are involved with that, like who's gonna who's committing to maintain it financially, operationally, maintenance wise, you know how many people a is it going to be be used by? How frequently is it intended for all the time? Used for just as a response in a backup. So there's a lot of things

that are involved there. And also financial structures. There's so many different ways that I can get set up um, And like Jimmy knows, I do not like to involve myself with money aspects. I'm just straight hammers and like you know, solar um. But there there's a lot of the good examples of community owned my grigrids for solar, and that's really the I don't know that there's that many, especially in the US community owned water systems, but if

you look internationally that is likely different. Um. Yeah, but as far as solar, that's a pretty common thing. Diversity. Well, there's a lot of different ways micro goods can get set up and who could own it. So again it depends on the scale, right, like who's going to fund the operation at the beginning, if you have a few angel downers that want to do it, or if you have a community that's willing to pitch in an equal amount per person, you know, and how much they want

to use for it. So you calculate how much you need for each person's use, you know, what's the distribution area, how many camels do you need, and how are you going to get it to everybody? Are they going to have battery binks for autonomous use? Are they going to be like tied in? So there's it's a lot of

models that you could do. So as so money goes hurricane just before Hurricane Ian, Hurricane Fiona Hitto rico um and it wiped out you know, for for a time the whole Islands power grid, but the autonomous off grid solar infrastructure that was built up at the central state point of Mutual the Mutual Aid centers across the island stay the lights stayed on, and they were able to continue powering their communities through autonomous infrasture infrastructure. Oh yeah,

that's really cool. I know some indigenous nations and on the West Coast certainly have their own micro grids as well. Nice. Yeah, it's as smaller scale, like how many people are in the community. Sorry, yeah, the smallish scale. I think like maybe a few hundreds, maybe a couple of thousands something like that. That's good. Yeah, it's an area of interest I know for other Indigenous people for very obvious reasons. But yeah, that's really cool. If someone was interested in that.

Like let's say I'm at home with my community and I hear this and I'm like, hell, yeah, that's what I want to do. Can they reach out? Can they reach out to you and be like, hey, help me, help me join together these fifteen prius car batteries or we would you be able to help them with the like planning stages of that or is that beyond the scope of your work? UM, so my my main area of knowledge is around water UM, and I dabble with solar a lot. But there are a lot of folks

in the network who have insane skills. Like we have people working on all kinds of projects, so many cool things. So I would say, yeah, reach out, um, because that's kind of what the network is. It is a lot of really cool people trying to just make positive change. It's super awesome skills. A lot of folks have pretty cool skills. Yeah. In the beginning of this interview, you mentioned how you felt like times just kind of slowed

down or like it's all kind of blurred into one. Um. Is that like a common feeling whenever these things happen and people are on the ground, the type of otherworldly nous or how everything feels so stretched out? How does

that kind of like what's your experiences with with that feeling? Um? Yeah, I think that feeling is part of the trauma, right, there's a lot of trauma associated with the work, and you know, those conversations happen a lot, and it's um really, I mean personally, I won't speak for everybody obviously, but personally I've feigned a lot of UM. Support just in our collective network, everybody's UM I feel really focused on the same thing, so I personally gain strength from that.

But I think there is a lot of UM. I feel like you can get a lot of hopelessness sometimes right like you start to see the the long term need and the fading of the spotlight because the next disaster happens. And I mean there's literally still people in ban Rouge who still have houses that haven't been fully rebuilt and that was from the food. And there's still places that don't have electricity in Puerto Rico right now, and it's been like, you know, I don't know what

over a month. So you know, Flint, Michigan, just like name of thing. Right, So I think, my, my, I don't think I could do this work without the or of other people who do this work who have that same UM feeling, who who experienced that. And the time. The time work I think is partly for me again, partly exhaustion, partly trauma, UM, partly UM like excitement. There is so much excitement right seeing seeing and seeing the love.

Like I don't want to make it sound all bad, like there's like beautiful moments every day with the love that you have on the grountain with everybody, um, and so yeah, go for it often. Um. You know, Dorothy Day, after the San Francisco earthquake over a century ago, said, while the crisis lasted, people loved one another. And what oftentimes we experience after a major crisis or disaster is

is that our lives before we're disastrous. You know that capitalism and colonialism, in the isolation and alienation and the meaninglessness, drudgery of the work and selling ourselves to the highest bidder so that we can survive, you know, Um, all

that is an ongoing, invisible disaster. And in in the moment where the the ruins are around us and we see them, you know, we we come together in a way that that draws on on on that feeling of solidarity and love and and those those ideas of a better world that we that we protest for, that we march on the streets for that we you know, envision coming you know sometime in the future in a microcosm.

They exist here and now, in in these local pockets of people taking care of each other against all odds.

That true. Yeah, I think that's really that's really well put, Like it's sort of it made me reflect on like I've reported from it and worked in lots of natural disasters, and like that time when the like alienation, boredom, and despair they associate with everyday drudgery under capitalism goes away and you have a purpose and everyone's working together and you know also on like Twitter dot com all the time.

It's very and and in time stretchies at the same time compresses it's it's very addictive in a sense, like it feels wonderful and hopeful, and then it's the feeling that an uprising tries to replicate. It's it's the it's this moment of peak experience that makes you. It forces you to fall out of the kind of the drudgery of collapsing capitalist infrastructure, and you're forced to actually live

around people. And it's the weirdest feeling. And it happens when horrible things happen, like disasters like wildfires, hurricanes, or it happens people getting shot. Yea to the moment of like national uprising as well, Like it's the same, it's the same function and for a brief moment, you're able to actually live the things that you like preach um and you're able to see them get applied in the world.

And I think a lot of us getting away from that just being a peak, right and having to come back down because I'm really he is to build that resiliency, right, to to create it so that the lights don't go out and we just keep rolling and if they do go out, you know, we've got a backup plan, Like you know, there's a wood burning stove and we make some pizza. I don't know, but you know, I think, yeah, the peak shouldn't be a peak, there should be just a shift. So how do yeah, so how do we

how do we keep that right? How do we rebuild and keep that momentum that that that net for each other? Yeah, it's I think, yeah, yeah, I think Lennon had an answer to that that it did not work out the best. Yeah, and uh and we're still here, yeah, yeah, here we are listening to podcasts. But yeah, I think that was wonderful. I really enjoyed that. I think your point, just to close out that discussion about like how you guys have

a network that supports people. Some of the most profound depression I've experienced has been not like directly around disasters

or conflict, but coming home and feeling useless. So I think that like checking in on people and continuing to feel like you're pushing in a positive direction, Like more people will experience a natural disaster after listening to this and have done before listening to this, and next year will be bigger than this year and it will get worse until but like you will feel elated and that's okay, and you will feel devastated and that's okay. And checking

it on people is super duper important. And speaking of that network and making connections, where can people find in support the work that you all do, all and Jimmy that you can go to mutual Aid Disaster Relief dot org or on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, mutual a Disaster Relief on Twitter it's mutual Aid Relief and our email is

mutually a Disaster Relief at gmail dot com. I would love for more people to join uh this movement, you know, both mutual a Disaster, leave their local Mutual Aid project um and and and other other similar efforts or start one. Yeah, that's a question. We get a lot is like, oh, you guys talk about mutual aid and stuff, but there's really nothing in my area. There's I don't I don't, I don't know what what it's to do, Like, okay,

well maybe there's fix that problem. I mean, like, do you have any like resources to help people kind of figure out how they would absolutely. On our website mutual a Disaster Relief dot Org, there's a resources tab and one of the sections is mutual aid about you know, diving into the subject of what is mutual aid and how to form a group or a project UM and in other resources along those lines. We also have a newly formed uh mutually toolpit relief Toolpit that's on our website.

So if there are local mutual aid groups, UM, this is a public form, so there's a big bold like warning about it and happening it's public. For intention we have our own obviously like internal threads, but this is more like for folks who maybe haven't ever plugged into mutually before, like being able to see where's all the

different mutually projects and what they're doing. So UM again we talked about the resiliency, so this is kind of our attempts to be able to map for each other UM away where we can see what every where where everyone is that's interested in responding and doing what they're doing. So if it's a funale Bombs group or like whatever your mutual aid things that you're doing, if you want to join onto that. Um that's a fun way to so you might be in your area if everybody start

stilling it out fantastic. Thank thank you so much for taking time out of the stretched out or fis concept of linear progression of time to talk with us about the fantastic work that you are all a part of. Thanks for having us appreciate it. It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media or more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.