Melting Charlottesville’s Robert E Lee Statue

undisclosed location. I'm joined today by doctor Julaane Schmidt, a professor of Religious Studies at the University of Virginia, the director of the Memory Project at the University of Virginia's Karsh Institute of Democracy, and a steering committee member at the Swords into Plowshare's Project. As both a scholar and an activist, doctor Schmidt has been a leading voice in the Charlottesville community for racial justice and against the Confederate

monuments that once stood here. The Swords into Plowsher's Project announced back in October that they had successfully dismantled and melted down the bronze statue of Roberty Lee that once loomed over the Market Street Park in downtown Charlottesville. Thank you so much for joining me today to talk about the past, present, and future of that hunk of bronze.

it was removed. You led some really incredible walking tours of the downtown parks to try to tell the story of the way those statues existed in those spaces for generations, why they were there, what they meant, what impact they had on the landscape and the people in the community. I think I went on about a dozen of those walking tours, and I learned something new every single time.

So can you talk a little bit about the political atmosphere in nineteen twenty four when that statue first went up.

you know, since then. So to think about it, if you look at the history of reconstruction in Charlottesville, black people came out and registered to vote and got politically organized very quickly in the eighteen sixties already, and were very influential in electing a black delegate from Charlottesville to

go to the Constitutional Convention. This is when in order to rejoin the Union, all of the former Confederate states had to get their state constitutions up to snuff, and so Virginia, as did the other former Confederate states, you know, had a constitutional convention. And our delegate from Charlottesville was James T. S. Taylor. He was a black man from Charlottesville.

He'd been in the United States Colored Troops, and he had a coalition had coalesced around him of some progressive whites or savvy savvy whites, you know, that one through their lot with him and former enslaved people and went and you know, and represented us and put you know, Charlottesville in the mix for starting a new state constitution

in Virginia, for finally getting public schools. You know, that's one thing that we can thank, you know, all those reconstruction governments around the South, you know, forgetting us those public schools that we wouldn't have otherwise had that we

didn't have before. You know. So I say all that back that if you read the historical sources of the time during reconstruction and post reconstruction in Charlottesville, the white elites were quite upset with the state of affairs that had emerged after the Civil War, in which formerly enslaved people were in leadership compatity and political leadership, you know.

And so when you look at the history of you know, then finally as as the new you know, there was a Reconstruction era constitution that started all those wonderful things such as you know, public schools, you know, and voting

rights for black men. You know. But then as the Neil Confederates or the Confederate sympathizers start to get the upper hand again at the end of Reconstruction, and in Virginia that's you know, more or less in the in the eighteen eighties, you know, and then there's this steady imposition of Jim Crow, you know that's going into you know, in Richmond they put in their giant General Lee statue in eighteen ninety, you know there, and then in nineteen

oh two there's finally there was this final push that pushed black people out of political office in Virginia, and in nineteen oh two, a new Jim Crow state Constitution was put into effect in nineteen oh two. And so you have to when you think about all of these statues being installed, we have to see it as this

it's really resentment politics, you know, that's come about. That is if you look at these speeches that are delivered at the installation ceremonies of these statues, and this is where I'm getting to our General Lee Statue in Charlottesville specifically with this, you go back and look at those at the occasion for the day, and these these installation ceremonies, they were a time for the neo Confederate organizations, the

hosting organizations in our case, the United Daughters of the Confederacy, the United Conveterate Veterans, and the Sons of Confederate Veterans. Okay, we're the hosts, you know for this event. And this is a two or three day occasion. So there's like delegations coming in from all over the state, you know, and you know there's this build up, you know, in the days ahead, you know, leading up to the installation.

This was in May of nineteen twenty four, you know, so you see, oh, this delegation has arrived from Rowanoak, and now the governor is coming in and now this and now you know, and so you know, the town is just a twitter. You know that this that they are hosting the state wide reunion of the United Confederate Veterans. And there hardly are anymore at this time. They're you know, quite elderly at this point. So there, you know, there's quite this you know, uh celebration. And this is also

an annual meeting of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. And so the fact that little Charlottesville is hosting a statewide reunion, you know, of the state wide of all the chapters you know, of these neo Confederate veterans is a big deal. And then and then you know they're doing this, you know, and within this context is when the unveiling of this statue is occurring, you see. And so it's this, it's this whole build up of kind of lost cause nostalgia,

which which is occurring. And in the speeches at the Lee statue unveiling ceremony, it's very instructive to listen to what is being said. You know. You have, of course, you know, kind of local dignitaries and statewide you know dignitaries are there. The National Commander of the Sons of Confederate Veterans is there. He gives a speech. He was also a klansman, you know. You know, so this says

something there that you know, nineteen twenties Charlottesville. You know, elites were not averse to rubbing shoulders with a known klansman, you know, who had been invited to give a speech. You know, other invited guests. One was a minister who was a gradu what of the University of Virginia, and it was you know, just kind of revealing, you know what he said in his in his speech, you know, when he was talking about he said that that the

days of reconstruction were worse than war. You know, so this right exactly, Yeah, does beg the question, and that yeah, goes without saying, of course that this is you know, almost exclusively a white audience and you know, the white school kids. School has been canceled for the day, the university as classes you know, canceled for the day, and you know, the businesses are closed. I mean, this is just you know, quite the community event that's going on. So, yeah,

so reconstruction was worse than war. You know, we're celebrating today, you know, the you know, the spirit of Lea, the regeneration you know of our values and you know, there's just a lot of of conversation in these in these inaugurations, ceremonies, you know for the unveiling of these statues that hearkened to rebirth and regeneration, and you know, and also you know, kind of recalling you know, the days of old, you know, and the and the values you know of our veterans

you know who are now you know of course in dwindling number, you know, these Confederate veterans who are there. And so this and as I said, there's been this whole build up you know, for days and days, you know, I mean of course for the planning committee, this has been going on for weeks and months, you know, the fundraising and you know, reserving you know blocks you know at the hotels and you know, and all guesthouses and all this kind of thing you know, banquet halls, et cetera.

You know. But it's it's also revealing that this installation ceremony for the Lee statue, it is booke nded with clan activity and uptick in clan activity before and after the installation ceremony. And why while we don't have well we do know, but you know one one clansman who you know, the Commander Lee, no relation to the General Lee, but uh but the president of the Sons of the

Confederate veterans, you know. But but to just see all of this uptick in lost cause nostalgia and then these these acts of intimidation of you know, clan rallies, clan posters that were you know, put flyers around town, you know, uh, and this sort of thing. It just it they're the atmosphere of intimidation. You know that this must have been

for black residents you know of the time. Uh, you know, it just it really gives you pause, you know, just just seeing how public space was commandeered, you know by these people, these Neil Confederates, you know, to kind of uh relive what they considered, you know, kind of the glory days you know, of the nation you know, and the kind of values to which they want to return,

you know, and and and this sort of thing. So yeah, so this is going on, you know in the nineteen twenties, as you know, Charlottesville is you know, locked into Jim Crow by then, you know, and we're twenty two years into that Jim Crow State constitution. You know, this is the mail u you know in which in which this

is taking place. Now. Of course, black people have their own institutions, you know that they've founded, you know, namely churches, the Jefferson School, African American what's now the African American Heritage Center, but the Jefferson School, which was a school for black children, and the founding of the High school

of a black high school. So this was you know, the black community had its own nodes of organizational strength, you know, and goings on that were happening even as you know, there were these pressures you going on with the consolidation of Jim Crow should also mention that, you know, at this at around same time in spring of nineteen twenty four was the passage of the Virginia Racial Integrity Act, and this was the kind of the codification of the

so called one Drop Rule, which designated anyone with a perceived ad mixture of African American or Native American ancestry to be designated as colored, you know, and kind of bifurcating the population of Virginia into two categories white or colored. And so this is also occurring, you know, in nineteen

twenty four. There's a very you know, there's very much of a legal you know, a kind of strengthening, you know of in terms of the tools that are being used to separate the races quote unquote, you know, and what we're seeing then in the parks, you know, in our public spaces were you know, kind of designating what we're well, not public spaces, I mean they were you know, kind of designated you know, almost shrine like, you know, as white spaces, you know, and that this is it's

a kind of broadcasting of who's in charge, is what's going on?

from that week. And so when the day the statue was placed, you know a few weeks before the unveiling, it was still covered, it was shrouded, you know, it's leading up to the big day. So in the front page of the Daily Progress the day that the statue was put in the park, that little snippet appears in the newspaper, right next to a headline about cross burning. These things are happening on at the same time, right, And there was absolutely a big clan march through town

that week. And I think one of the it's easy to forget that these historical moments were experienced by people whose words that we still have, like people who were

living in this moment. I think one of one moment in your historical tour that really has stuck with me all these years is an anecdote about John West, who is for the listener as a man was born into slavery in this era, was one of the largest black landowners in the area, was a successful businessman, and when the klan marched by that week, you know, they're wearing their hoods, you don't know who they are. It's you know,

it's mysterious, it's intimidating. But he knew who every single clansman was because he was their barber, and he recognized their shoes. And that just feels so intimate to me, right, that he's he's looking at the shoes of these men that he knows, and then tomorrow they're going to come in for a shave and a haircut and he has to say, you know, yes, sir, thank you.

You know, so here's one of the most you know, influential Black residents of Charlottesville at that time, and he has to live yeah in you know that there's this this atmosphere of intimidation that you that, Yeah, his clients are coming in, you know, they're coming in every ten days or fourteen days to get a get a trim, get a you know, touch up, you know here and there, and yeah, and and he knows that these you know that that these are you know, the folks who are

kind of maintaining you know that this this public order, you know that is so uh. You know that you know, you better not step out of line. And so just to have one's public space, you know, be demarcated, you know, in such a demonstrative way, you know, in a monumental way.

You know, really yeah exactly is is uh, it really illustrates what's going on, you know, and even in you know, relationships like that, you know that that are so like you know, intimate a barber and a client, you know, and and knowing you know what you're as are up to you know, and how you better stay in line.

so we were in consultation with native tribes. We were contacting the various tribal nations who suffered the onslaught of the so called Northwest campaign. So these tribes that are in what is now Illinois and Ohio, et cetera, you know, and just asking them, you know, would you like to kind of weigh in, you know, on this, and you know,

really sad genocide is a real thing. Some folks who are just no longer there, you know, or you know, were you know, became such a remnant, you know, as they were so decimated that you know, they kind of you know, morphed into you know, other tribes others were you know, went on you know later on to you know, to Oklahoma or other places. You know, just dispersal, you know,

really was you know. You know. So we're in this you know, kind of year long process trying to figure out what to do with UVa's own statue there, you know, also a gift of Paul Goodlow McIntyre, you know, the same donor who gave the least statue to the city, gave this Steorge Rogers Clark statue to the university. And so in doing that committee work, we made appointments with all the big players all that, you know, and here

we are. We're from the University of Virginia, you know, and we've got this, you know, big big monument here, you know, the Smithsonian, the you know, and you know, we talked to not about this one, but in another instance, talk to you know, the Civil War Museum's battle Fields.

of where I go to. But the problem is it's a very practical one. This is a material object that is taking up space, literal and figurative space in the world.

Nobody wants them, Nobody responsible wants them. And you know, and even if they did have an inclination to want to do just the expense of it, you know, who wants to reinforce their floors to put a you know, century old you know, artistically not exemplary, you know, monument in it, you know, and then care for I mean, museums have very limited budgets, they're nonprofit organizations. Why should

they be expending all this energy? I love the My colleague Aaron Thompson from John Jay College and Cuney, you know, she's an art crime professor, and she said, you know, she talked with somebody at the Smithsonian who said something to the effect that, you know, we're not America's attic for racist arts. That's not our role. It's like, you know, it kind of does throw back the responsibility to individual communities too. It's like, you know, you have a part

to play in this, you know. And so anyway, yeah, so we tried to do the responsible thing. We contacted all all the responsible actors out there. They don't want them, And so then the question becomes, Okay, the city also doesn't want it sitting on its back lot for forever in perpetuity. You know, They've got things, you know, they've got equipment there, they've got things that you know, this shouldn't be sitting there. Where is it going to go? Again?

This is the material object that exists in the world. It is a problem, you know, like what physical space is it going to occupy? We're just such brute practicality here, and I don't think people quite get what it means to deal with this. And the only people who want it are the very people who shouldn't have it, you know, who want to take this object that's caused us so much pain and to make a shrine out of it, you know, that would continue to attract bad actors, you know,

and that it would you know. And I'm a religious studies scholar, so when I use I don't use the word shrine lightly. I know what kinds of activities you know, uh, these engender, you know, and the sorts of emotions that are you know, evoked, you know, in the ceremonies around you know, objects that are that are held to be sacred. You know that that attract you know, kind of devotees, you know, and so you really have to think about what does it mean to be a responsible ethical actor?

Or maybe there maybe there were some people in that town that wanted it, you know, but that's not fair to the other people to have to breathe in that air and it brings that water that's that's poisoned by this. That's not that's not being responsible, you know what I mean. So it really is an ethical question, you know, what what space these toxic objects are going to inhabit, And so we were unable to find any responsible actors who

would take this on. And so then it kind of it's like, well, I guess it's kind of on us. We have to you know, like the Smithsonian. It's like, we're not the attic for your racist trash, you know. It's like it's it's really it's it's on us. It's on communities to figure this out, you know. And if there isn't uh, you know, some sort of organization that can responsibly curate this, you know, and care for it, then you know, we really need to think about it.

And in the case of this Lee Statue of Charlottesville's Lee statue. You know, they are about I think there are about sixteen monuments of Lee, like kind of equestrian monuments of this sort, you know, in the country. I can say with confidence that all of the others are of better quality in Charlottesville.

It's just sorry, p right, you got to wait and working on my best piece.

this young guy, you know, Leo and Telly. Interesting, you know Italian immigrant in the twenties, which is kind of interest, you know when you think about, you know, all the hate that was being.

I mean, it's just really weird, you know, proportions. It's just it just really was not very well executed because apparently the maquette, the model that had been made, just was completely destroyed. The model, the original model by Schrady, was completely turned to dust, and so Lintelly, the successor sculptor, had to work from the drawings that remained. You know, and you know, it just didn't didn't really go very well.

And here's the thing that even the boosters at the time, that is, you know, the folks that were planning for the installation of the Lee statue in the nineteen twenties themselves did not think it was very well executed. We have diary entries from the Master of Ceremonies of the installation ceremony, RTW Duke's and he says, he writes, is like dare to before the installation, he says, went on a walk, you know tonight, you know, went by the park, you know, saw the Lee statue. I do not like.

at the installation ceremony. I can harken back to that, you know, at the Lee installation ceremony. You know, I guess felt compelled to address the complaints that were apparently circulating, and he said, you know, I'm talking about the portionality problem that I mentioned before, that just so many it's just very disjointed, you know, so many parts of the of the monument are out of proportion to other parts.

And so this speaker at the installation ceremony said, you know, there are those who say that the pedestal you know, upon which the Lee statue is, you know, is set, is too small, But I say the world itself is too small a pedestal for General Lee just like oh yeah, good say it's it's yeah, yeah, yeah.

of thing. And but even if you believe you could do that, which I do not, you know, it's just really a not It's like having a high school art project a CE, I give it a C. It's a high school art project that it's not.

There's two separate concerns, right, Like it's not beautiful enough to put into a museum regardless, But then also preserving this object in any capacity just allows it to sort of continue to be this lightning rod, like you known, sort of still asking about, well, what's the problem with recontextualization. Why can't you just put it somewhere else? And I think that's sort of a broader conversation about these statues

in general. But for our statue, for that Robert E. Lee statue, right that it had become sort of a pilgrimage site for vigilanti violence.

that four year interim. It's crazy to think about it, huh, for ye that for four years after Unite the Right, it was still there, Like.

Charlottesville counter protesters and killed community member heather Hire. These these uh fascists you know, who would make their pilgrimage to Charlottesville, would make sure and still do on occasion, uh go to Fourth Street and put up their propaganda there as well as if to kind of further antagonize the community at a site of our trauma, you know. And so it was very clear that this statue would just wherever it would be, it would continue to be

a beacon for these people. And so really it was just kind of a question of responsibility knowing this, uh, knowing that no responsible historical or artistic institution has the capacity or desire to take it in what does one do with it? And that it's not an exemplary piece of art. There are fifteen other monuments that are of

better quality of Lee. We're not going to forget him, you know, if this particular specimen goes missing, and the way we see it, we're doing the art world a favor, because as I've said, it was really, you know, not

a very good, well executed piece of art. So, you know, with in considering all of that, you know, in seeing in prior removals, for instance, the Johnny reb the Courthouse, Confederate Soldier, statue was removed, and there was kind of no plan in place about where it would go, and so it ended up, you know, getting sent to a battlefield that is maintained by a group of Confederate leading folks that seem to favor kind of lost cause interpretations

of the war. So we'd seen that happen already the year before in twenty twenty, that when there isn't a plan, it's one thing to remove it, but then where does it go? Again, this is a physical object that exists in space, in physical space, where is this material object going to go? If you don't have a plan, then bad things can happen.

American Heritage Center here in Charlottesville. We said, you know, we still do not have the legal authority to remove Charlottesville's Lee statue, but we anticipated that perhaps, you know, in the in the coming year, we might I said, we need to start making plans now about what can have, what where the statue should go after its removal, because otherwise, the same thing that happened to this Johnny reb to this Confederate soldier statue just kind of getting sent down

the road, you know, to whatever entity organization that wants it, the same thing's going to happen, and we need to have a plan in place in order to kind of capture that so that it doesn't just kind of continue to circulate and to do harm. So that was our motivation. So we kind of, you know, in September of twenty twenty, that's when we really you know, put the pedal to the metal on starting the planning of this, you know.

And we and mind you, we did not even get permission until I think It was April the first of twenty twenty one, and finally the Virginia Supreme Court ruled in favor of the City of Charlottesville in our efforts

to remove the Lea statue. You know. So this was you know, six seven months before we even knew if we could do this, but we said, let's start making plans, and so we started having these kinds of conversations you know, with battlefields, with museums, with foundries, you know, just just you know, just learning, you know, kind of the nuts and bolts, you know, what are the possibilities here? And it turns out it's very complicated.

alb Marle County. The majority of people here were enslaved. So how did how did the people supposedly represented by this statue die for Virginia fight for Virginia, you know what I mean? So we just like that was so disturbing, you know, in September of twenty twenty, when that happened, that's that's really when I just really started working in Earnest, you know, calling foundries.

I mean that was kind of like that was the edgy, you know, And then.

be removed, should you know, what should happen? And you know, and this Blue Ribbon Commission, you know, hands their final report to city council, you know, and then city council takes the vote, you know, Charlotsville City Council in February of twenty seventeen, and surprising many people, not some of

us who were in the know. But one of the council members said, yes, I would like to propose a resolution to remove the lead, not just move it, not just recontextualize it, because that's you know, if you go back and read that report, it's actually fairly there's a couple of different suggests like, well you could move it, or you could just do this, and you know, and city council woman, you know, Christian Zakas, said, I would you know, make a motion to have it removed completely,

you know. So it's like, whoa, Okay, we're you know, we're making steps, you know. So it was it was about, you know, it was getting from move from move the state to remove the statue, as in take it away, you know, and then it really wasn't until after all

the strife, you know. I mean, I think there were some people all along who's you know, would say tongue in cheek, oh we should just melt it down, you know, or you know, she'd you know, But but the thought it was just so you know, talk about there's much talk of overton windows these days, you know, but they're just they're just when that was being said, it was always in a kind of jocular manner like, oh, of course that could never be but or we should melt

it down. It was this kind of offhand right, it wasn't serious because how could that ever be? Right? I mean that really that was behind. But what it takes is somebody taking that seriously and like going through the practical steps of what would that look like? And so that's what I started doing in September twenty twenty. It's like, I keep hearing people say that they want it melted down, What would that look like? What do you like physically

do that this happened. I'm a humanities person. This was breaking my brain learning about alloys and you know, compositions.

You know, but most of the time people didn't want to talk to us right when they found out, oh you want to do something with this with the stat oh no, they just you know, they were they didn't want to be involved in any controversy. Or we would get someone who was on board with it, Yes we're going to do it, and then for instance, you know, the company got sold and the new owners were like, what nothing to do with it, you know, or they won't call us back anymore, or no, or you know,

I mean, just things just kept coming up. So it was hard to find anyone who would just engage in

a serious way about the questions. And then even when you could, it was kind of like, you know, you'd get somebody for a little bit, and then it was you know, like the fisher, it's like, you know, catch the fish would swim away, you know, kind of I don't know it just you know, So it was it was a lot of different conversations with a lot of different people, you know, along the way to figure out like what are the you know, literal and figurative nuts

and bolts of doing this. You know, I learned a lot, like you know, about standard width of trailers eight and a half feet Did you know that? Yeah, eight and half feet yep, right right, you know, and you know fifty three feet long, and you know, and you know kind of what kind of what's the hauling capacity, what's the payload? You know, how do you balance the load? You know? What is duneage? I mean you're just like

all these things. You know that that just the very practical steps that one has to take to melt a statue.

have to console people. I mean, a four hundred year old you know, it would just be terrible. You know, it doesn't have all the hate wrapped into it that these you know, statues do in this sort of thing. So what I'm saying is I understand and that people have very tender feelings toward these material objects that they have had experiences around them that have bound them together. Religiare you know the binding that's the original you know root Latin root of religion you know, is to bind.

You know, I get that. And so yeah, I'm not a reflexive iconoclast. You know, I'm a Catholic, I'm a you know, I'm also a you know, participate in these African inspired religious practices and stuff that you know that put a lot of you know, emphasis upon, you know,

sacred material objects. So I am kind of I mean, it is kind of weird that me I would be involved in this and that, you know, and doctor Douglas, you know, but it's precisely because we know the power of these things, and the we're eyewitnesses to what happened here. You know that we know the power of it, and

so how to be responsible for it. And so to take something like that that was so harmful and to be able to use its materials to transform them and to make something that's meaningful and beautiful and that expresses our community's values and that includes people rather than kind of sets people apart, you know, or kind of you know, symbolizing moments in our history where you know, over half

the local population was completely debased, you know. To be able to take the material that that was part of that and transform it into something else, it's just it just seemed like it just has so much potential, you know. And and and then the name of the project is Swords into Plowshares, which comes from a verse from the prophet Isaiah that they shall turn their swords into plowshares,

they shall turn their their spears into pruning hooks. So we'll take these implements of destruction and of violence, and we will transform them in to instruments of to cultivate, you know, sustenance, you know, uh, you know, you know, nutrients you know, for a community. I mean, it just you know, to just to just really transform it, you know, from from something so ugly you know, into something beautiful, you know. And we just thought, you know, let's let's

take the chance. Let's try and do this. Let's do something that's never been done before, because none of these statues have ever been like, I don't think ever completely the Confederate ones anyway, have ever been completely destroyed, you know, like this. Most of them are just in storage somewhere. And we said, let's let's take this chance to transform. Let's be responsible first of all, and not send our

toxic waste down the road to another community. And let's try to do something transformative, you know, for our community. And maybe this can also move the needle, you know, in a national and international conversation about art and the reparative values, you know, potential repair of values of art, you know, and community building, you know, and so in

our you know, we're the swords into Plowsher's project. We're hoping to put out a request for proposals, you know, to artists this year in twenty twenty four, which is the one hundredth anniversary of when the Least statue was installed.

You know, ideally, you know, fingers crossed, if you know, it would be wonderful if we could have a completed statue in twenty twenty seven, which would be the ten year anniversary of the United the Right Rally, you know, to to you know, to have something else to give back to our community. You know, that's a blasting value that, you know, and for us, it's important that we write

our narrative. There were people who attacked us, you know, who tried to kind of imprint on us, you know, some sort of narrative about what we were about and also kind of you know, reverberated in a you know, national and international way. And we're really taking control of the narrative here. We're saying, you know, we we are going to say who we are and we're going to express that, you know, and we do value art, you know, we want it to be an art that reflects our values.

you do with this large object? And so the practical answer is you reduce its size, you melt it down, You remove it, and you melt it down. But it's not just practical, right, there is there is incredible symbolic value in using that material, that metal, right that I think in some of the articles you all talked about as it was melting there were impurities in the metal.

So as the statue is being melted down, the impurities are being extracted from it, it's being purified and now it can be repurposed and that's really beautiful.

out from Unite the Right. You know, we're eight years out from you know, Zionist initial petition. You know, you know this this statue has been you know taken away, it has been melted, and it just feels like a literal and figurative clearing of the land. You know, it just feels like you know, people have asked, you know sometimes it's like, oh, there's you know, all that empty space at the parks, and I was like, yeah, isn't

it nice. It's just kind of like I mean to just kind of I think it's nice to just have just push the pause button for you know, in terms of things that are there for several years, and just kind of allow our our minds to open, you know, just like the space itself, and just to just imagine what that space can look like. I think it's really instructive and I wish more communities could have the opportunity

to do this. Actually yes, but you know, for instance, taking that survey you know that community members in Charlottesville are doing now about you know, yeah, how how do you know?

to consider this. You know that this is something that has been you know, America's uh uh you know, the United States is uh, you know, public parks has you know been something that you know since the nineteenth century is something that's that's been a real gem, you know in some of our our public spaces, you know, and in some of our cities, and you know, and this is something to you know, to celebrate, and it's it's nice to be able to kind of take stock and

to really, you know, think about how public spaces can express our professed values, you.

in public spaces? You know, So we'll be able to kind of you know, talk with uh, you know, some experts that have come in, you know, to advise us on you know, how to think about about what we want in our in our in our parks going forward.