I love podcast fans.
Today it's me James, and I'm joined by Cave Hoder, who's a doctor in the Bay Area and also host of the House of Pod podcast, which an extent podcast for you to add to what you've done listening this podcast, you can add that to your podcast rotation. But we're talking today about medication abortions, and specifically about attempts to ban medigation abortions by anti abortion activists, which included a
recent case at the Supreme Court. So, Cave, would you maybe like to add anything I'd missed from your introduction?
No, yeah, that was pretty much all the good stuff. Thank you for having me. This is super fun. I love all your podcasts. I like your work, so thank you for having me. And yeah, the topic is it. It's super duper duper important and it is in the headlines a lot, but at the same time not enough,
you know what I mean. If like, people are talking about it a ton, but I don't know if they're talking about it enough, or if the gravity of the situation is really hitting people, or if it is we're just overwhelmed by how much bullshit we've had to deal with in regard to this. If people are kind of feeling a little bit beaten about it and feeling a little bit disheartened, But I am super glad that we're going to discuss it today.
Yeah, I think maybe it is bizarre, how I don't you know, I think we're dealing with so much bullshit and every day something terrible happens, and so I can understand how this kind of came and went in the news cycle. At the same time, it does seem like, why the fuck were They're not ten million people out in the street trying to burn things down when like, like, if you're listening to this and you don't think you know anyone who's used this, it's most likely because someone
in your life hasn't shared that with you. Like I can think of more people than I can count on my fingers who I care about very dearly, who have used absolutely.
Someone posted this once and I thought it was really actually pretty brilliant. It was like, if you don't know anyone that has, that means they don't trust you enough to tell you, or they think you're a douche. So like there's a there's a reason, you know. So, yeah, it's it's very.
Common, right, And so I think maybe to start out with, we should explain, like what is a medication abortion and how does it work and why is it so common.
Yeah, I'll talk a little bit about that. I think maybe we could touch a little bit on the history of it too, because I think it is kind of interesting to look at it from a bigger perspective and medication abortions, they account for more than half of all abortions nationwide. It's usually done. There are a couple of different ways of doing it, but the most common one by far is a two drug combination mif for prostone
and misoprostal, and these are the ones. They are used generally in the United States and in other countries as well. You can use mister prostal alone, but it's just not as effective as these two drugs together. MIF of prostone blocks progesterone and what that is. It's a hormone that you need to make the pregnancy happen. It makes the uterus a hospitable place for it to occur. And we'll
talk a little bit. I think about the misso the mifa prostone, try the misoprostol as well, because that's a prostac landing and they do a bunch of things in the body, but one of them is to cause contractions of the uterus. In that that's two these two drugs together. One makes the pregnancy less able to progress and then the other one expels it. So that's how these two medications work. What I think is really interesting about them is a little bit of the backstory to it. So
my understanding. Then there might be some medical anthropologists or historians who know more about it than me. I'm sure that's the case, but it's you have to put the song perspective because when I grew up, abortions were all invasive, surgical essentially, and it was a you had to have it done in a very specific manner. Now we have the opportunity and the option to do it in a
much I think, safer, control, less traumatic way. And you know, it kind of started in Brazil because in Brazil, you know, I know, because it doesn't make sense, right, but abortion is illegal there, as you might imagine, and women there, like women in any place, are going to look for ways to have abortions if they want or need one. And one of the things they would do is it basically go to like a drug store or a pharmacy and they would look for medications that said beware, this
could cause abortions. That's that's one of the ways this all started. One of those was mister prostal that medication I mentioned, that's a prostaglandin Again, prostal glands do a lot of things. I'm a gi doctor by trade, and you know from my perspective, they're also used for treatment of ulcers, not really something we go to that much
or anymore, but there are other uses for it. And so they found that it could cause these contractions of the uterus and they would use it there for that purpose. The French were actually the ones that worked on mifiprostone or RU four eighty six, and that's the one that blocks the progesterone and stops the pregnancy from progressing. So the background, I think is really interesting and how far
it's come during this time. You know, how it started when our use here, to how it changed during COVID, I think is a really fascinating thing. And where we're at now with these medications. I can't we're gonna talk about it. I'm sorry. I don't want to jump ahead, but I'm just so I'm so upset and I know I should be at this point in my life much more used to like these weirdly cynical bs moves of a republic in judge or whatever promoting this as being
a safety issue. I know I shouldn't be surprised and upset by it, but I am. And that's the part that really bothers me right now is the argument they're using against it is so bullshit and cymical that I and again I don't think enough people are talking about it.
No, it is like I'm the same way, like I should be. A lot of my work has been border reporting, and like I should by now be Like, no, I shouldn't, because those people are fucking terrible. Like there's a group of journalists who just seem to have lost their capacity to care for other human beings and can report on human suffering without taking any toll on their on their personal mental health, and they congregate on various Facebook groups and in bars and expensive hotels or around the world,
and I don't like that. But like, similarly, a number of conservative conservatives around word like anti immigration States used to title forty two. They soon to keep Title forty two right, citing the risk of COVID nineteen from migrants crossing our borders. And these are the same fucking people who have been like, we don't want to wear masks,
we shouldn't have vaccine mandates like it. Yeah, it is infuriating that they can't just be like, yeah, I don't think you should have the right to bodily autonomy, and I don't care how I get there, so I'm just going to use this troll ass methodology.
It bothers me that there were doctors involved in this case, the court case, and it does bother me that there are doctors that are fighting this. I mean, I get it. If not every doctor wants to do an abortion, I totally understand that. But to not stand for a woman's autonomy over her own body is the part that I
can't get. I mean, it's like it's I'm not an ethicist by any means, but that's like the bare minimum is like you're supposed to believe in someone's autonomy over there themselves, and the fact that it's being removed piece by piece it should be bothering doctors who are who are supposed to be following ethics, you know what I mean.
So I'm also a little bit from that end, I'm mad at our own I'm mad at our own people, I'm mad at doctors, and I am on my little echo chamber in Twitter, where there's lots of doctors who feel the same way I do, and I hear from them, but I know that it's kind of there alone. I'm not hearing it from other doctors out in the real world, you know, and not enough at least.
Yeah, we should explain a little bit that, like the original case, the complainants were doctors, right, who were claiming that they were having to treat complications that arose from medication abortion.
Is that right?
Yeah, they're a part of it. I don't know how big a part of it, or if they're just used because they're like a lot of times people, for good or bad reasons, will bring a doctor out in a white coat at like a press conference, which is like, you know, like we're just wearing white coats all the time, you know, and just the sand in the background and sort of add some sort of weight to the argument.
And so I don't know how much of it was that in this situation, but I mean, the argument that they're making that these medications are not safe just it's a silly argument. I mean, we know that the mortality rate for medical abortion is less dramatically than the mortality rate for childbirth, and that changes too depending on if you're like a white woman in a wealthy neighborhood or a black woman. There's different mortality rates, but pretty much
across the board, it's going to be safer. I mean, the chance of a serious complication is there. It can happen any medication. It can happen penicillin, it can happen higher rates. By the way, viagra. When viagra came out, there was the first year it came out, there was about five hundred and fifty deaths from viagra. I mean, granted the cardiovascular problems patients had, whatever, but still there
was a if not without risk. You don't see any judge from Texas, you know, coming out to talk about viagra being an issue. No.
I think you're right to, isihlate that, like being pregnant is also a risk, and much greater risk in many cases, especially like you said, because of these different intersectional things which can make it a greater risk for some people. So I would love to talk about why these became more Popular's the wrong way, but maybe more widely used to facilitate abortions during COVID because that's super interesting.
Yeah, So the long and the short of it is when they first started doing these tasks. But I'm sorry, when they first started doing these medication abortions, there was a bit of a process that had to go into it, Like doctors were worried. I mean, we're always conservative. Doctors are always conservative. We always start with like probably more than it's absolutely necessary, and then over time we do enough research, we get enough like evidence behind us that we can
peel back parts of it. So when it first started, you know, people wanted ultrasounds, lab tests make sure that they weren't people weren't a mnemic or didn't have a risk of bleeding. They wanted to make sure the livers were okay. Labs are probably weren't totally necessary. The ultrasound,
I think scared people a lot. Or people really wanted there always be an ultraound just to make sure there wasn't like an ectopic pregnancy or a pregnancy, or it doesn't occur where it's supposed to outside of where we expected to and those can be dangerous and if you do take these medications. You know, obviously you're going to be a bit more of a risk if you don't If you don't know, that's an ectopic pregnancy. So there was a lot of a lot of things that people
had to do back then. Then then started to peel away slowly, like doctors might were starting to be like, all right, do I really need to get liver tests if I'm going to give this patient a medicational abortion, And those tests started to peel off slowly, And then when COVID happened, basically people weren't able to go to the doctor as much or as easily. Either weren't doctor offices or or open. It was harder for people to get to in the beginning, you know, and it only
got harder with COVID. So the ACLU actually sued the FDA and they actually won, and through that that women did have to come in anymore for these They could all be done via like teleconference or a video chat basically, okay, so which is a big game changer.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes it much easier. And so it used to be the case at least, so you could get these things in the mail right particulably, After some kind of teleconference or video chat. Is that still Is that still the case in states where there isn't like the strictest kind of abortion ban or is it universal?
No, it's my understanding it's still as of now possible. It's still available. You're supposed to be able to do it. I think we're going to find that it's becoming more difficult. We're already seeing cases. I mean, they've been highlighted on on social media. How often they're happening now, I don't know, but there we see cases now of you know, a pharmacist not fulfilling medical abortion pills, and in the comments section when you look at why why not, they're saying
because is now banned by a federal judge. So, I mean it's not true it was. The Supreme Court has you know, has okayed it for now. I mean for now it's still okay and allowed. But there's going to be enough confusion about it. There's going to be enough worry about it that people are going to have a harder time doing it, getting it, or even finding, you know,
people that are willing to do it. At this point, there's probably a lot of concern from patients and medical providers, so you know, even though it is technically still allowed, I mean I don't know how for how long you know, I am worried. And also I don't know if this is really hindered you know, people being able to access this, and I think it probably is.
Yeah, it certainly hasn't made it smoother.
As you said, right that it only takes you know, one person to have delay of a number of weeks or whatever, and it might not be an option or it might.
Not be as safe.
And how do you know how how far along these these medical medication abortions are like generally advised.
You know, the medication abortions are considered safe in the second and I think even parts of the third trimester, but generally after the first trimester is when it's it's considered a little bit more dangerous and most medical professionals would want you to come in to have it done. So I mean that's my understanding. I'm not obigian, I should make that clear, but I think for for the most part, within the first trimester, people generally consider that's
something that's manageable at home. Outside of that, I think you're probably more likely to have the medical professional want you to come in and see them.
Yeah, that makes sense, and in some states it's going to be a lot harder, if not impossible, or countries like I know, for instance, I've come across groups in Myanmar were distributing these drugs. Abortion has been illegal, they're more or less for since British colonial rule, since it was United as a sort of state, not really a nation.
It's been a it's been illegal. They've sort of made some moves towards it being less illegal, and then obviously with the with the coup, it's become more illegal again, and people there have been There was a website up in the twenty twenty one about how they facilitated mutual aid distribution of it, which I found super interesting, and then at some point they obviously that that must have
got them some heat and they took it down. But it's used all over the world in places where people don't have access to care, right alongside being used here where people may or may not have access to care, which is pretty fun out.
Yeah, I mean, it's funny that, like, you know, we're comparing ourselves. I mean, it's you would think twenty twenty three we wouldn't be you know, looking to other countries to guide us at this point. You would hopefully we would have figured this out by ourselves after everything. But yeah, I mean, it's funny you look at the historical you look at it from a global perspective, it is interesting. It's really a global effort to try and get these
medications out to people. One of the major major companies that sends these pills and mails these pills is in Europe, and they try to get them to other countries. It is sort of a global effort at this point to try which is kind of cool. That's one good thing about this. It shows you that most of the world seems to be on board with this, whether or not governments are or not. You know, I hear eighty percent here in the United States is it's for it. I mean,
I think that sounds about right, you know. And the fact that there's so many people in the country and then the world trying to figure out ways to get these medications to people. That's one, I guess, sort of reaffirming thing about this.
It's impressive to see people just doing grassroots mutual laid One thing that was very popular around the time of the Dub's decision a lot of people were showing these videos on do it yourself abortion pills or like homemade. I think it was misaprostal, it may have been both. It may have been mith for Bristowe as well. Obviously, like this is empowering and like we want people to
be empowered to make ostigions about their own body. But perhaps you could explain why, like it it's also suboptimal.
Yeah, you know, it's it is definitely suboptimal. I mean I'm not every time I say something like that, there's always some corner of the Internet that's like, well, you're a shill for big farm or you're like part of the medical industry or whatever, and yeah, sure whatever, But I mean it is it's a risk. I mean, these medications, like I said, they're safe, but they're not without risk.
You know, there are things that can occur when you have this are contradications to some of these medications, Like there's contradications to mif aprostone, like ectopic pregnancy like I mentioned. And you can get that worked up to be evaluated, or you can at least have the very basic questionnaire filled out that would help at least give you the hint if it's there, chronic adrenal failure, porphyria, inherited porphyria.
These are things that are that doctors who do this think about and know and as part of the process to get these medications, even if it's just a questionnaire that you fill out online. So there are risks. There are bad things that can have happened with these medications, as there are with penicillin. Like I mentioned, I've seen people with, you know, life threatening allergies to to penicillin.
I've seen people with who have liver failure from basic stuff that you know people take all the time, like tail and all. So you know, it's it's It does make me very nervous, and I like, do it yourself is I like that that people are trying to find ways around it. But and I hope we never get to a place where this is that's absolutely necessary. I hope, you know, but I understand why people are curious about it and why you're looking into it and reading about it.
I obviously I'm not going to ever really promote do it yourself medicine to that Farbard degree.
Yeah, like at someone I use insulin every day, right, and people have been making their own insulin I've seen on the internet for for a long time, and I find it super fascinating. Intern also costs fuckle to produce, like like a cup of sense, and it costs hundreds of dollars to buy. Folks can accuse me of being a show for Big Farmer, but I have plenty of publications pointing in the other direction.
You and me both, brother, Yeah, yeah, look at us, two guys just breaking in the pharma dough.
That's it.
Yeah, that's that's why I'm recording in this shed provided by FISA. No, and yeah, there is. These things are not expensive to make, they shouldn't be expensive to buy, and they can be had extremely safely. And the things that are stopping you from accessing them cheaply and safely and easily politicians and also pharmaceutical companies sometimes.
You know. That's the funny thing too, is that you think for like, these right wingers are always talking about like relaxing regulations and whatever. It's like, I wonder if they recognize that on some level, what this is doing is it's just going to impinge on you know, quote
unquote innovation in pharma. Like if you're a farm company and you're thinking about some medication that could be used for this, or you're thinking about creating a new medication for something that could, in the slightest way be deemed inappropriate by some judge somewhere. And then if they're making the decision, not the FDA, Like if you're a farm industry, you may be like, it screwed. I'm not going to worry about that medication at all. You know, nothing else.
This is going to cut back on innovation in pharmacy.
Yeah, like anything with a contry indication for being pregnant would be vulnerable to this. Right, we should probably explain that the use of myth of pristone as an abortion drug was approved by the FDA in an expedited process, right, and that was what was being challenged. Can you explain why although it's faster, that doesn't mean it's any less thorough. In my understanding, I might be wrong, the FDA went like, yeah, fuck it, let's give it a try and see what happens.
No, I mean it's a very good question. I mean we do have safety data behind it. So again, you're exactly right. This is not done in a vacuum. It's not done haphazardly. I mean there is there still always is a pretty strict process to go through for these medications. It kind of it's the same thing that we had to deal with with operation warp speed one of the worst names are a very important medical advancement. So, you know, people like, how can these things be safe? It's happened
so quickly, and it's not really true. I mean, there is years of research behind all these things. There's years of research behind it. There was a study from the Newly Journal of Medicine about the safety of these abortion pills. It had been studied worldwide. It had been looked at for a while. You know, because abortion is so common and there are so many of so many done that it makes it easier to see the results. It makes
it easier to see the numbers. Part of the reason we were able to follow COVID so well and get information so quickly was because it was everywhere, and when it's everywhere, it does raise the numbers. It makes it easier to get people enrolled in the study, it makes it easier to make a study happen. So that's kind of what was happening here. This is something that was there wasn't a lot of question about again, are there risks to the medication. Absolutely, there's risks to every single
medication that you get. I mean, I've heard toxicologists say that if thailandol had to go through the same vetting process that we have medications go through today, that thialanol wouldn't make the cut. Wow. And as a liver specialist myself, I can attest to that. I mean, how talanol is a great medication if it's used correctly, but I've also seen it cause a lot of liver failure. It's a
very common cause of it. So there's there's a pretty strict and there always is a pretty strict method to to the FDA when it comes to this sort of thing.
It's not done haphazardly, right, And I think most of the people attacking it and not attacking it from a place of deep concern for the health of people who can get pregnant. It's quite the opposite. It's an attempt to control people's bodies, right, right.
Yeah, they're not. These are the same people. They're not concerned about the fact that the mortality rate in like African American women who are pregnant is so much higher. They'll never hear them talk about that. They don't give a damn unless, of course, they want to somehow cynically tie this into like racism or something. They'll find a way to twist it in this weird way to be like, yes, you see liv Prostone is racist or something. You know, so I yeah, yeah, sorry.
No, Yeah, it's cynical and asinine empathetic, but sadly like it's also the reality. Yeah, I wonder, like, obviously none of us can see the future, and we've talked about how mister prostal can be used on its own if I'm not mistaken, right.
Yeah, it's not as good, it's not as good if it's used together.
But yeah, do you foresee a world where like that is targeted next?
Yeah? I mean, if they're really serious about that, they're going to try. I mean, I think at the end of the day, we can keep Zelots out of the Supreme Court somehow.
In a while before we get another crack at that.
Yeah, then I think we should be okay, because I mean, it's it's a bad argument. The argument doesn't really hold up. I mean, some judge interpreting the medical data with or without the help of some you know, quasi scientific group of like pro life doctors. It's just not going to hold up to what the FDA has done and has to go through. So I don't I don't know, I
don't know. I want to say, I really want to say, I don't think it's going to be an issue, but I can't guarantee it because the fact that you know, this is such a relatively safe drug and it's called the question, I mean, it's pretty brazen. I think that they're doing this and well they do it again with other medications. Yeah, probably well win though I hope not.
But yeah, I think this is setting they're setting basically a roadmap for this to be done again and again for for medications they don't like.
Yeah, and those are all going The medications they don't like are all going to affect a certain group of people, right, Like, that's right, That's just that seems to be the sort of target group for, like you said, a very small percentage of the of the population who are just on their culture or bullshit and don't really care how this affects thousands of people's lives. Obviously, Like folks are also facing like they can't access gender firming care and lots
of places. Right, This is the other massive area of healthcare that the Republicans seem to be very willing to ignore the and some Democrats ignore the evidence on it
and just attack people for culture war reasons. And I know that one thing folks do there is organized mutual aid networks to help people access medications that they need for their gender firm and care with medications like this is it like like you said, there are lots of contraindications and it's not always safe, Like are these things that people like people will be inclined and get to
be like, oh shit, maybe I should stock up. Maybe I should like load my medicine cabinet, and maybe we could discuss that, Like you said that there are risks that come alongside that.
Yeah, I mean I certainly would understand if I was in a position where I thought my bodily autonomy could be going away anytime soon. I think I could see why someone would stock up on it. I mean, I don't know enough about the medication to tell you about its shelf life. I know that it is just require some special handling, So I don't know if it's the kind of thing that you can keep for long periods
of time. But you know, if that part of it was worked out, I certainly don't see I mean, I could see why you'd want it again, it comes down to the do it yourself nature of it. Now, the beauty of this is these what these what we've seen with these medications is when we did the COVID, we took it when COVID happened, and we kind of took it out of the doctor's hands and made it more directly to the patient. Actually, the outcomes weren't much different,
so that seems to be a very reaffirming thing. But you know, I still I would like for there to be medical involvement in this. I would like doctors to be involved in this, you know.
Yeah, perhaps we are progressing towards a place where like technology can help with some of that and take away the liability from doctors in places where they could face a long time in jail.
Yeah, I mean, that's that's the other thing. It's going to be interesting to see how this pans out, like from doctors in the future, if there's gonna be people still willing to learn these skills, you know, because not every abortion can be done you know, medically, still going to be a need for for the the more older fashion forms of abortion that's still going to need to
be done. So, you know, I'm hoping that people are still going to be willing to learn from this, and if anything, I'm actually hoping that people young medical students are more interested to learn from it. So we'll see how it goes. Like you know, when when COVID first started, there was a huge burst of people interested in medical school and going into infectious disease. But then you know, over time, and in the ER for that matter, too,
they saw the need for it. They saw the call to arms, you know, and it took three years of seeing what kind of bullshit ID doctors and ER doctors had to deal with before those medical school numbers dropped way off and people interested in those fields. You know. In fact, ER, for people trying to go into ER, they have to go through this whole match process, which is like a big deal. Like it's a stressful thing where you try to get into the best place you can.
And R has always been a pretty like sought after field. It's not the most competitive, but you know, there is there is a good amount of competition to get into the good places. And this was like the first year I remember where there was a ton of unfilled spots at good institutions too, So, like you know, how I do worry will this be the same sort of thing. Will there be an uptick of people interested in women's
healthcare and and providing that vital that vital need. I think there probably will be, But will it be sustained? I don't know. Will they just give up after seeing how much bullshit has thrown their way?
It's totally feasible, Yeah, I mean, if you're looking, it has to be like an idea, Like my sister is an ob gyn, and like does my sister doesn't live in the United States, who doesn't have to deal with any of this bullshit and so like, but very much enjoys a job and it's very passionate about it. But I can see how doing get here. It would have to be almost a political idea or your commitment as well. Like you can't practice your your your career in half
the state. I don't even know if you can go to medical school in like states where it's banned, and like that's a.
Really interesting question. I wonder if it will affect the medical training in medical school. Yeah, in places where. That's really interesting and scary now that I think about it. It, Yeah, it's gonna be, It's going to be available for people. There's always going to be organizations fighting to do this and to get it out there. But how how hard it's going to be to find a provider to help you with this that in the future, I'm hoping it does not become a problem.
Right, Yeah, I did all these little sort of it's really important, I guess like that folks do whatever they can to preserve these rights because generally, like the state doesn't give back power that it's able to take from people, and this could mean a lot like this, And I'm not like trying to conflate fucking having to have a vaccine to breathe on someone and and like, you know,
like that is not really attacking your body autonomy. Like you're attacking someone else's body autonomy if you want to give them an effect your disease, right, But when it takes away things like this, they you know, like like that has other consequences. Even if you're not a person who can get pregnant, and you don't think you're ever going to be getting somewhat pregnant like this should matter to.
You because you know autonomy should matter to you.
It seems a matter to most of the people in the country, So I mean that's a part of this I don't understand. I mean, I guess it's all ideologically driven, but because it doesn't seem like a winning proposition if you're a politician to do something this unpopular. But I don't know. I don't know much about politics. I suppose yeah.
I mean, what is popular and what wins elections in the United States can be vastly disparate things, as we've seen, given the system which is deliberately organized to befuddle the results of a popular vote.
Okvit.
I wonder if there's anything else you wanted to discuss around.
This issue of abortion and bodily autonomy.
Obviously it's going to be one that plays out massively in twenty twenty four, but I.
Want to make it clear. I mean, this should be pretty evident my stance on it. But I do believe abortion is essential and evidence based healthcare. It's in that evidence based part of it. I think is important to reiterate because we do have data on it, we do have data that it is safe, we do have data
that it's safer than some of the other options. And if it's removed as an option, we are not only taking away, you know, a woman's right to attimey over her own body, but we're putting them at more health risks potentially for it. And you know, I'm not an er doctor, I'm not obi gin, but I can guarantee that they're gonna have to deal with a lot more problems because of this. If that happens, they're gonna be dealing with a lot more complications and difficulties because of it.
Yeah, there's one thing I wanted to hit that I totally forgot about. I don't want to I don't want to phrase this in terms of like people wanting to end a pregnancy have any more or less right to do so than people needing to end a pregnancy, because everyone should have the right to choose what happens to their body equally.
Yeah, but.
I am I believe I'm right in thinking that many of these drugs are relied upon by people who have miscarried or have a pregnancy.
Isn't compatible with life, right And.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean though the horror stories about women that are forced to carry if you know, baby's a term that are not compatible life for you know, a severe critical illness. It's those are horrifying. And these are medications that can be done again at home for some For some patients it can be done at home,
which is you know, not great. You know, it's still not gonna be maybe a fun process, but it'll be a much better process for them, much less traumatic, I would hope, you know, than having to to have it done later on and in a hospital in a much more clinical, cold setting. And we try to make these things as good as possible. Our nurses are amazing, and
our doctors who do this are are compassionate. But you know, if someone could do something safely at home, you know, and it can be done safely, I don't see why not.
Yeah, it can the dignity and privacy of your own setting where you use your home or you know whatever with your family, then yeah, as opposed to being forced to carry a baby which isn't compatible with life, like, that's got to really.
Fuck you up. And it's I don't know, I don't.
Think people are thinking about what they're doing to other people when they make these these I don't know, horrible decisions, But.
Yeah, I hope they didn't get to keep making them. I guess.
We can all interpret that however we want. Are there any Are there any organizations that you'd suggest folks follow get involved with, like their groups that are helping to facilitate access to care, either where it's difficult or just trying to campaign to keep it legal.
You know, I know there's been a lot of criticisms in the past towards its organization from all sides, But you know, I've known a lot of people who work for Planned Parenthood, and I still think they do good work. You know, They're not perfect by any means, and they have valid criticisms from both from really from from a couple of different angles. But still the people I know they are working there are aren't doing their best and
are really want to help. And then there are international organizations still that are involved in the abortion making the abortion pill accessible, and there's a lot of different ways to get to that. I don't have one in particular that I would recommend, but the one that I have worked with people that I've met in seen and talked to and have learned so much from a lot of those people are from Planned parenthood.
Okay, yeah, yeah, And like you said, they have been criticized, but they've also stepped up to meet like what is a pretty terrible situation. And they're building more clinics on the borders of states where you don't have the right to terminate your pregnancy so that people can travel. And yet it's pretty fucked up that that's what we're doing now we have the underground railroad for abortion kind of thing.
But yeah, I mean it takes a big organization to deal with the organization that is the state or you know, the state of Texas or whatever.
It's done really well.
Is there anything like you'd like to plug or do you like to tell people where they can find you?
So I'm available on Twitter at the House of Pod if you do Twitter, and you could listen to our podcast the House of Pod. It's pretty much everywhere you find your podcast. And guests range from like world expert physicians to like Garrison Davis, so like you knowing those two things, they're an expert of their own way. And and I'm sure I'll get you on soon enough whether you like it or not. And so we get a
lot of the different guests. The range is pretty wide, and we talk about medical related health topics and try to do it in a relatively informal way, and so it's I think it's relatively fun. It's been really educational for me. I'm really enjoying doing it and I get to be cool people like you. So it's a good show, I think. But I'm biased because it's my show.
Yeah, I enjoyed. People should listen.
Thank you, Thank you very much.
Thanks a lot, mate.
It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
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