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Yeah that's sounding in a premium package. But we're not here today to talk about snacks. Sadly that will get another podcast. We are here today to talk about my recent trip to the daddy En Gap in Panama. So I guess to start off with we should probably explain, like do you think me or I need to explain like where it.
Is and what look I I went to school with a kid who actually this happened multiple times the more I know, I'm thinking back on it, like people who thought that the Arabian Peninsula was in Mexico, So like, in fact, you need to explain this.
Yeah, wow, yeah, okay, I'm just imagining that what got it mixed up, mixed up with the Yucatan.
It was really sort of oh wow, incredible stuff happening in by schools.
Yeah, fascinating. Yeah.
Okay, So for those of you who are not familiar, the Dadian Gap is an area between Colombia and Panama that has historically, like I've seen a lot of characterizations of this which I think erased the existence to indigenous people, which shouldn't be shocking given the corporate media, right. But yeah, people have lived in this area for thousands of years.
They have happy and fulfilled lives. They thrive.
There is no desolate place. It's just a place that hasn't made itself amenable to capitalism. Really, it's a place between Colombia and Panama where there are no roads, there are not navigable rivers. It is extremely mountainous. It's one of the most humid places on Earth. It is covered in incredibly dense jungle. There are fast flowing rivers which
you have to cross as you travel there. And for about half a million migrants last year, it was the only way that they could come from South America to Central America and they continue their journey on to North America.
From a minder saying like, this isn't just people like from South America, Like, there's a bunch of other people who come into South America because it's easier to get in who are taking this route too.
Yeah, that's right.
So for most people who are coming to want to come to the United States, they can't fly directly the United States, right, it's quite rare to get their asylum that way, very rare. And there's a HNV Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua Venezuela program which in theory allows that it's backed up for like two years. So most people will fly to a country in South America. The most regular one is Brazil because Brazil doesn't impose visas on countries that don't impose visas on it, and then from there they
begin making their way north. Geography understanders will realize that Brazil is a very long way from the United States.
Yeah, that's very bad. Like that's that's not good. That's yeah, it's not good at all.
Short of Argentina, you really you really couldn't get that much further away, you know, in the continental Southern America. So what people tend to do, especially so I spoke to just off the top of my head. People from Nepal, people from India, people from Venezuela, people from Colombia, people from Angola, people from Cameroon, Togo, Iran. I spoke to a Kurdish guy that he was from Iran. I'm trying to think off the top of my head. That's most of them.
Probably China, I know there's I didn't speak to any Chinese migrants.
Yeah. Interesting. Interesting.
I went fully prepared with like a machine to translate and everything, and I didn't see any Chinese migrants, which is quite surprising. Haitian people, of course, the special Locitian people. The Chinese were coming through the dairy and gap in big numbers.
Last year.
The only thing I heard about Chinese migrants was that someone had seen the remains of someone who they described as Chinese. Yeah. So if you're not familiar with the journey, it is the most dangerous part of the migration route in the Americas right. It's one of the most dangerous migration routes on Earth. People have to walk for between two days and a week. I've heard even fifteen days, but the accounts I had maxed out a week. There is nowhere to get water, there is nowhere to get food.
You have to walk through mud that can come up to your waist, You have to cross rivers that are higher than you are tall. You have to climb boulders shemier across cliff faces. The accounts I heard and the things I saw were pretty horrible, like and we've kind of had a fun introduction, but I would rather go back to the uncertainty I had of like being in Syria last year and knowing that there were bombs falling on people every night, then have to see some of
that stuff again. It's horrific, Like I can't really. I'm obviously working on a scripted series and we'll have that out soon. But like, in terms of the things that we do to each other, a humans like little children die in the darying gap all the time. People carry their babies across rivers on their shoulders. People carry other people's babies when people are too tired from carrying their own children.
And not everyone who enters leaves.
Right, it's if you drink the water from the river, you'll probably die because there are dead bodies and upstream right, there's human waste in that river. If you fall and break your leg you'll die if you run out of water. You're not really in a place where anyone has any spare water to give you.
It's horrific.
Every single account of the gap that I heard was that no one should do it, that it's it's terrible, that it's in human, it's like nothing people have ever seen. But people don't have a choice, right, it's the only way for people I spoke to, probably I have over one hundred interviews recorded, you know, I spoke to more
people than that. The bast bulk of them were from Venezuela and a place where I used to live, and like, I understand that they lots of them have children, some of them are bringing their children, some of them are going ahead and trying to send money, right remittances back to their children, right, And everyone said the same thing, that there's no future for them in their country, that they don't see a way of succeeding, of raising their families,
of having a future for themselves. There I met a trans lady from Venezuela who was saying that, like, there are legal things in place that won't allow her to have her gender affirmed by documents, right, she wasn't able to graduate with her degree.
Jesus Christ.
Yeah, like things are just completely deliberately torpedo.
Your life just being who you are as yourself. Right, people aren't doing this because they want this fictional housing assistance or whatever it is that Trump and jadivans. People are doing this because they don't see a future for themselves. I spoke to Iranian women right who had been on the road for nearly a year trying to avoid prosecution at home for having participated in protests for like basic human rights. Yeah, it's just the things I heard and saw were deeply, deeply upsetting, And I.
Think it's retally important that we.
I guess, kind of bear witness to this because it doesn't really get discussed when the US media talks about migration. Maybe if we're lucky, they'll come to the southern border for a day, right and do some rassionistic piece on it, But like, pretty often they talk about migrants, but they don't talk to them, and so, like, I think it's important that we talk to them, and I think it's important that we face up to the fact that like this is a choice that the people who have been
elected in this country have made. They've decided that the only way, For instance, the only place to use CBP one right is in southern Mexico or north of Mexico City.
Can you explain what CVP one is for people who don't remember.
Yeah, sorry, So CBP one is an app that allows people to apply for an interview for asylum.
Just to sort of skip ahead, I guess people.
Understand that they have to use CBP one, and they understand that they can only do it in Mexico. And the people who I met in the Darienna are now in Mexico.
Right.
They take a series of buses north. Not all of them, I'd explain why, but some of them haven't been able to leave Panama yet. They take a series of buses north and they get to the Guatemala Mexico boarder and they cross in Tapatula and then they work out the CBP one is not compatible with the vast majority of cell phones. It doesn't work with older Android like Samsung phones.
Oh my fucking god.
Yeah, yeah, it works with iPhones and I didn't see a thing or person with an iPhone. If you're wealthy, you can avoid the DADDI en right. There are ways you can go around in a boat. There are ways that you can sort of take a shorter route. The route that I was on is the route that people who do not have the resources to avoid this dreadful journey take. And now they get to Mexico and they realize that, yeah, you have to get to Mexico to make the application right, and the way to get there
is to cross the dairy end. And then when you get there, you realize that this thing requires you'd have a special telephone that you don't have.
And it's just very bleak.
It's a level of human evil, both in the sense of it has been actively designed like this and in the sense that they don't give a shit, like the fact that that fucking app doesn't work on Android, it doesn't work old or Androids, the fact that the app fucking sucks shit like the entire way. Yeah, like everything about this, Johnny. It's designed to be painful, to kill people,
to strip away like the hope that people have. Yeah, and it's and it's designed to do this to like attempt to satiate the fucking insane bloodlust of like seven dipshits and fucking like rural southern Illinois. And it's like, Okay, there's literally nothing you can do to ever appease these people. The only the only thing that will ever appease them
is their own death. Like, nothing you're ever going to do to these fucking immigrants is ever going to make these people like like you could, You could, fucking you could put these people in a country that has zero immigrants at all, and they would still scream about it.
There's there's nothing you can fucking do. And people have decided that in order to basically people have decided in order to try to get like a one percent higher margin in an election, they're probably still going to lose, going to just fucking inflict inhuman suffering on unbelievably large numbers of people.
Yeah, Like I think that's the thing I want people to really like grasp is like somebody has made a decision. Maybe we should take an ad break here, advertising break, all.
Right, we're back.
So specifically, I want to talk about what the US is doing right now in Panama, what it started doing since July. Right, That's why I wanted to go when I did. Panama had to change the presidency in July. We have Molina as president now and he's promised to close the Darien. Right, if your source was his social media, then you would think it was closed. I saw about a thousand people a day crossing it. None of them had seen a barrier, none of them had seen the
razor wire. But he's posted about they didn't know that it was using. What they did know was that the US had an election in November, and everybody wants to get here before that. Yeah, you know, I tried to explain that, like we actually don't transition power immediately right, that that happens in January, but everybody is concerned to get here before the election. And what the US is doing in Panama is the US is currently funding deportations
and I like saw that happening firsthand. With this is this is honestly one of those things which just really fucks me up and like I need to like I know it just I tried to record stuff at the time.
And I just it's all just me saying this sucks. This is terrible.
This like what it looks like is so you leave bab Jaqito, right, which is Barjiquito is an indigenous village. It's a village of the Ember people who were wonderful. There were nothing but kind to me.
I stayed in their houses for a week and slept in my hammock in the house, I shared their food, held their little babies like they were incredible and client hosts and very grateful to them. From Baljaquito, which is this tiny village right. The population of Barjaquito triples every day. Five hundred people live there. A thousand people roll up every day and then they're transported in dugout canoes, like a tiny canoe that is carved out from the trunk of a tree.
They're two stroke bolted on the bag. I think I posted a pitch on Twitter. If not, I will do.
The micros are taken upstream. They pay twenty five bucks each and they're taken five hours upstream. If they don't have the money, there's three canoes every day that are provided for free, and they generally try and make sure that all the women and children getting those canoes right. One of the things that MBAA has done has made everyone wear life jackets just because a lot of these people can't swim right. They've been crossing rivers above their heads.
They told me that they made human chains, right, so everybody sort of locks their arms together because the rivers wash people away. They're transported from Bajuguesel to a place called Lajas Blancas, which is the first migrant reception center in Panama. So they're now leaving like they don't have reservations in Panama. But they're in the Embra Wunan Cormarka. And then when they get there, they're in the dai
En Commarca. So they're in sort of outside of an almost entirely indigenous state of Panama and in like what you would consider like Panamanian government custody. I guess when they enter in Lahas Blancas, and when they get there, they register, right, they show their passport, they do all
that stuff. And that's where like un has Shelters with the Red Cross has a facility there, the highs Has of the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society, Global Brigades, all these big NGOs that you're used to seeing in these places have facilities there. But to leave Las Blancas, they need sixty bucks per person to get on a bus, right, and if they don't have sixty bucks to get on the bus, I was told these buses are owned by Panamanian parliamentary deputies.
But I haven't been able to confirm that unch fucking crush.
Yeah, someone is putting fifty five people on a bus, taking sixty bucks from each of them, and sending about twenty buses a day.
Like someone is making a lot of money.
Yeah, people will remember that one of these buses crashed last year, killing forty two migrants. But the really big thing is it's not the bus. It's not the ten hour bus ride. Like those people are so happy to be getting on the bus because they're continuing. It's the people who don't have sixty bucks and like, yeah, they've made it this far with a combination of whatever savings they had.
And like incredible tenacity.
Right, Like they pay someone in Columbia obviously to bring them so to get to the start of their walk in deli En. They leave from neck or Clean, Columbia, come across on a lancha like a speedboat, and then they walk up to the Columbian border where the guides and leave them.
Now the guides are obviously like this area is controlled by.
The golf cartel in Columbia, right, so they have safe pass through that area. None of them had anything bad to say about that area. It's when the guides leave them and they're on their own into Panama. That's when they didn't have water, they didn't have food because no one's told them they need water and food to be fair, right like that they weren't. I didn't think it was going to take as long as it was, be as
hard as it was. It's not. So I've learned a little bit from tiktoks and stuff, so I'm going to bring a bit more. But four days of water is a lot of water, Like speaking from experience, backpack in the desert. If you don't have the right equipment, it's hard to carry. So yeah, shuit is heavy, yeah, right, like you do. Like that's the other part, Like.
If you want four liters a person, right, that's like going to be four kilograms and that's a day. So most like that. By four days, what is it in pounds?
Eight point eight pounds, it's four liters.
Yeah, you're also carrying this like through the fucking jungle, which is just like everything's wet all the time, right, you're sweating, you're crossing rivers, your feet are always wet, like everyone's feet when they arrived and last blankerts, I took pictures of this. But they all have these crappy boots that they buy Nika clean Plumbia and every bin in Bajiquito is full of these boots because they suck.
And people like the blisters I saw, and like people getting trench foot right, like where the entire skin on their foot is just ready to slough off like a glove. Like everyone buys these crocs from a vendor in Bajiquito there, but like they can get through all that. They everyone who I met in Bajo Chiquito, everyone who I met on the trail, had made right. They through tenacity and like a lot of people said it like it's a roulette.
You go in there and you hope for the best. Not everyone makes it, but most of them do. So the people who had made it get to go to Lahas Blancats, right, and if they can't afford the boat from Bait to the last Blankers, they can walk. It's non fine, it's very hours of walking, right. I mention some of those guys one day and I gave them water filters stuff.
I wasn't allowed to walk.
With them, but I was able to like talk with them, and I spoke to them again when they arrived, right, and they get to Last Blancats and they're just if they don't have sixty bucks and they don't have it, and then they stay there sometimes for months, and this is not a place to stay for months. Like they have little casitas which they have for like this one for unaccompanied children, and then others I think are allocated
to families. But it's not much more than four walls in a roof, and most people don't even get that right. Most people are looking for a flat spot to pitch the shitty tent that they bought in Colombia. And then they're just stuck there. And there's obviously a relatively new policy. They used to take five free people per bus, but they don't anymore. Like from bar Jigito they have three free boats a day, right, But leaving lasast Blancas, if
you don't have the money, then you don't leave. And the people I spoke to there who are stuck there are still stuck there. People have been stuck there for more than a month. Their children aren't going to school, they're sleeping on the ground. If this is not a place that's designed to be a long term residence, it's designed to be like one night and moving through and every day new people arrive who can't afford it, and so the population is growing and growing and growing, and
there seems to be no solution. No one I spoke to could point to what they want them to do right, Like they're being given free food by the government.
Some of them said the food wasn't great.
I'm not sure if it's halal like sometimes some of them said they'd seen foods that had pork in it. But I didn't see any food to have pork in it when I was there, so maybe that's been changed.
But they're just stuck there. Yeah, there's nothing they can do. Right.
If they want to have money transferred there, they can do it through a local intermediary who charges to twenty five percent fee. So now if you don't have sixty yeah, like you need seventy five bucks now right to get your sixty bucks. Now, multiply that by a family of fire. You can start to see why it becomes inaccessible to people.
And that's that's a lot of money. Like if you're in this position, like that's yeah.
It costs so much more to travel on busesm and by foot. Across the Americans and it would to fly. Yeah, Like all of them would love to fly, but they can't because we have this system that makes everyone money apart from the migrants.
Yeah, And it's like it didn't fucking it didn't fucking used to be like this. Like when my family came to the US, like we didn't have to like, you know, we had a bunch of fucking harrowing shit to like flee the Japanese and like get to Taiwan. But it was like like when my parents, like and like their parents like came to the US, they just they fucking flew in. None of this fucking has to be the way any of this shit works. It didn't used to
be the way any of this shit works. And it's like like these are people from countries, and you know, it's like, yeah, obviously, like my parents were like leading from Taiwan to the US, right, which makes it easier, but these are also these are people from places that the US fucking hates, Yeah, and so like you you would expack them to get like at least somewhat similar treatment to people who came from like Taiwan, which is at the time, you know, like US ally anti China stuff,
but like, no, we've just decided to just feed the people to a fucking meek grinder.
Yeah, and it gets me to my next fucking trauma dump, the sick an outbreak before the Yeah, yeah they're back.
Okay.
So yeah, as me I mentioned, right, these are places that the US considers to be dictatorial or impressive regimes right around Venezuela, Cuba three that come to mind of people that I met, right, And so a lot of these people have what's called a temporary protected states in the US. It doesn't mean that they necessarily can't be deported. Sometimes they can, but sometimes it makes it a bit harder right to deport to those countries. Panama, it's not
governed by United States immigration law. Yeah, we gave On the day that Molino took office, Alejandro Majorcas, himself the child of minrants from Cuba, I believe, went to Panama, attended the inauguration, and then announced this six million dollar aid package right which the US was going to give to fun deportations from Panama directly. And I got to see those deportations happening, right, like you'll hear them in
my scripted series. But like watching somebody take a dad away from his baby, or a mother away from her children, or one man's brother away from his brother. Like it's just heartbreaking. These people have crossed the daddy in right. They've undertaken a journey. Like I've done a lot of mountaineering. I've done a lot of climbing. I like to fuck around outside, but like, I've never done anything where I didn't know if I was going to come back. Really,
and like they've done that. They've taken this incredibly difficult journey. And then when they get to the other side, you you, you, you, and you, they get picked out and they get deported back right on flights that are paid for by your tax dollars and my tax dollars. And this includes flights to Cuba. This includes flights to Venezuela, right places that the US considers to be like dictatorial regimes. And now
these people are back in Cuba. They're back in Venezuela, but their government knows that they tried to leave and they've spent all their fucking savings, so they're back in square one. I spoke to a few Colombians. They've also deported a lot of Colombian people most of the Colombian people I spoke to in last Blancats were deported. They called all the Colombian nationals to choose the office and then these I was told that they were only deporting
people who had like warrants, like pending cases. But when these people got back to Colombia, they were just free to go, right, Like if you have a pending case and someone delivers you to the government. I'm not an expert in Colombian law enforcement, but it seems like that would be a good time to prosecute that case. And these people tell me that they've been let go. None of them told me if they had warrants. Now, like, I'm just going off what they said. But that night
they were texting me pictures themselves in handcuffs. By the next day they were back in medine telling me that they'd been sent home, including like I was talking to a lady just before we recorded, who she doesn't know where her children's father, her husband is right, And lots of people will have like I guess what's the English translation, like free unions, Like when they're like married for legal reasons, they don't go and have a wedding, but they're considered
to be married common law marriage, I guess would be the phrase, right, like they've lived together for a number of years, share a house, etc. Often have children, but they're not like they never had a wedding. So I don't know if that document makes difference, But I watched people have their children taken out their arms and be shoved in the back of trucks and be deported, and like, that fucking sucks. That is not something that I want
to see again. And it happens every single day there, and it happens because your taxes are paying for it. Didn't used to happen, and now it does, and it's just heartbreaking. Like I don't really like it's there's nothing you can do. You know that there's no you know,
I can't do anything to stop it. You can't do anything to stop it, right, Like what you can vote for Donald Trump, who would like to machine gun every asylum secret at the border if you got a chance, Or you can vote to Kamala Harris, who has presided over record migrant deaths every year of her administration, who's sending your money to port people in Panama, who knows that the choices that she's made are resulting in like death in Panama, death here right, Like there were four
people who died, and then the heat wave in the first week of September, four people who died in o Time mount and wilderness in a tiny area ten miles across of border in San Diego, and my friends had to go insert their bodies, and my friends found their remains, and I had to confront the fact that, like, this is the toll of the rhetoric, Like this is what
the rhetoric costs. The other thing I want to mention is that like, even in the most desperate moments of their lives, everyone looked out for one another in a way that like we don't hear. Like one of the things that really struck me was that, like everyone's kids are just kind of out and about, right, no one's particularly afraid of anyone hurting their kids, Like all of
these kids. And I saw people who had got split up in the Gap find each other again in Bahochikito, and like, you know, there were strangers who had carried someone's children for two days because that other person was so tired or they had another child they needed to carry, and like, yeah, I'm strangely comfortable, I guess in refugee camps, Like I went to Panama City afterwards, and like I couldn't have it. It was too much for me, and I had to stay in my hotel room and like I
guess it was just difficult. But like I feel safe in those places. I feel comfortable, and like in a sense it's well, you see the best of us and the worst of us. I guess, like I can't imagine being in a place where I know I could lose my life if I slip and fall, and then thinking well, I've got to carry this little kid.
Never met this kid before. I don't share a language. You know.
There was a group from Angola and they'd been carrying Venezuelan and children. Right, they can't even talk to one another, but they potentially.
Risk their lives to help. Yeah, it's it's it's pretty fucking bleak.
I'm staying in touch with everyone I met, and they're telling me about their journeys to the border. Unfortunately, the thing that comes next is eight to nine month delay as they apply for a CVP one appointment, And like
I wish I could offer something hopeful. I guess what I'll say is what I always say that, like there isn't anyone you can vote for who will fix this, Like you can vote for Coil West with Jill Stein, Like I'm not going to vote for someone who fucking supports the policy sort of creating refugees in Syria, right whatever, I'm not suggesting that that's a solution either. Like the things that you need to do are like there is a person helping migrants in your community. I spoke to
a Jesuit shelter. I'll put them in my scripted episode. Like I'm not a big religious shelter guy, but these guys were fucking great. These guys are saving people's lives and making sure that people have the basic necessity like literally turning up at the refuge camp and making sure everyone had toilet roll and toothbrushes and things that, yeah, you don't need for one night, but you're going to be there for a month you don't have. You know,
what are you going to do? Spend five bucks on toothbrush and toothpaste, But that's five less bucks you have for your bus fare, right So, like I'll put them out there. I would love to do a fundraiser, Like if anyone can work out how to facilitate transfers to migrants who are in the camp for free. That would be great, Uh, Like that would be a service that
would make things considerably easier for people. But the way that you fix this is showing up, Like it's showing up at the border if you live near the border, it's showing up in your community. It's countering this like with people in your family and your circle, Like there's
a tacit agreement. I think in the entire corporate media that migrants are humans without rights, Like they're just numbers to these people, because I don't see them talking to migrants, right, Like these are people who you know, like I help them change their babies, I carried their bags for them, I played with their kids so they could go take a shower like that. They're people just like anyone else.
Of course they are right that, Like, Yeah, they're important to me, and it's fucking miserable to see my tax dollars used to make these people suffer.
Yeah, these people should be more important than the fucking sons of boat dealers. Who's fucking got the land they live because their ancestors fucking shot a bunch of people. Yeah, like that's That's what's happening here, is that these people who are you know, some of the most courageous people in the entire world, are being sacrificed to appease a bunch of fucking shits. It's a level of evil that is just unfathomable. Yeah, I think, like we really shouldn't.
I'm somewhat ranting now, but like, yeah, the pivot that even the Democrats have done in the last four years, right like, those people need to be held accountable for what is resulting in like babies dying.
Like I saw dead kids.
I saw that because Kamala Harris and Joe Biden whichever other fucking Democrat senators and representatives keep voting for this shit, decided that it was okay for those babies to die because they didn't want Fox News to say mean stuff about them or NBC to say mean stuff about them, right like, And of course they're trying to move that stuff as far away from you as possible. Of course they want the deportations to be done in Panama, not here, so you don't see it in your community.
And of course they want people.
To die a crossing the Darien and not on our border because that's removed, and you don't hear it reported on right, Like it's not a Venezuelan woman died on Thursday. We're recording this on Tuesday, like Wednesday. You don't see that reported, right, You don't see that there are little kids' bodies in the jungle reported because it's out of sight and out of mind, And like, I guess the thing you can do is constantly bring it back into people's
minds and make them accountable for their choices. And like, I guess this is the point where the electoralists get mad at me. I'm not voting for someone who chose that, yeah, Like, and I never could, Like I couldn't live with myself if I did. I know a system which reduces our political engagement taking a box every four years is asinine and child like, Like I would much rather be out there every day helping people than voting once every four years. And like, you can do both, of course you can.
But yeah, there's not a voting solution for this, Like it requires all of us to do a lot of work because we're so far down the path which ends in a really terrible place. Right, it's already a terrible place that these people's lives don't matter, and that their children's lives don't matter, and that we shouldn't care if they're dying in the jungle. And we've got a lot of work to do to get back from that, because apparently it's okay with a lot of people in this country.
Yeah, I think part of the reason why it's gotten this bad is that the social movements that had pushed the Democrats in a slightly better direction in the late twenty tens stopped social movement thing. So you know, the only thing that these people will respond to is like they're actually being mass mutilizations and them be feeling politically threatened by it. So you know, we've done it before, we can do it again.
Yeah.
The biggest march in this country's history was the March of migrants, Right, we can do that again. So many of us, myself included, came here to have a chance a better future. And like, even if you didn't share some solidarity with people like showing up in massive numbers, Yet these movement stopped social movementing and people fell out of a little things. But like, this shit is important, and I think we can build some bridges and we
need to do something to stop this because it's horrific. Yeah, and so it's a genocide in Ghaza, like we can. We need to do something to stop that too, but we're not going to do it through voting.
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