It Could Happen Here Weekly 229 - podcast episode cover

It Could Happen Here Weekly 229

Apr 25, 20263 hr 35 min
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Episode description

All of this week's episodes of It Could Happen Here put together in one large file. 

- Private Credit: It's 2008's All The Way Down

- Indigeneity with Andrew

- The First Anti-AI Firebombing

- UCSD and the Palestine Exception to Free Speech

- Executive Disorder: SPLC Indictment, Denaturalization, Iran

You can now listen to all Cool Zone Media shows, 100% ad-free through the Cooler Zone Media subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. So, open your Apple Podcasts app, search for “Cooler Zone Media” and subscribe today!

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Sources/Links:

Private Credit: It's 2008's All The Way Down

https://businessjournalism.org/2026/01/tricolor-investigation/

https://sg.finance.yahoo.com/news/deutsche-bank-signals-30b-risk-020300965.html

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/stock-market-today-dow-sp-500-nasdaq-03-12-2026/card/morgan-stanley-private-credit-fund-hit-with-redemption-requests-IS8PSZh497HC5aF4CkGN

https://europeanbusinessmagazine.com/business/private-credit-defaults-have-just-passed-their-2008-peak/

https://finance.yahoo.com/markets/stocks/articles/morgan-stanley-tests-private-credit-110634713.html

https://www.cnn.com/2026/02/23/business/what-is-blue-owl-private-credit

https://finance.yahoo.com/markets/stocks/articles/barclays-weighs-mfs-fallout-private-080551362.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2026/04/16/apollo-global-marc-rowan-private-credit-funds-redemptions.html

https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/apollos-private-credit-fund-limits-investor-withdrawals-after-redemption-2026-03-23/

https://www.reuters.com/legal/transactional/wall-street-banks-trade-derivatives-bet-pain-private-credit-ft-reports-2026-04-17/

https://www.cnbc.com/2026/03/23/apollo-private-credit-fund-gives-investors-only-45percent-of-requested-withdrawals.html

https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/shadow-banking-and-private-credit-what-7018536/

https://www.privatedebtinvestor.com/insight-the-challenges-for-pd-arms-of-pe-firms/

https://archive.vn/f9UdP

https://archive.vn/HUxEo#selection-1637.0-1650.0

https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/staff_reports/sr1111.pdf?sc_lang=en

https://www.deloitte.com/us/en/insights/industry/financial-services/banks-private-credit-partnerships.html

The First Anti-AI Firebombing

https://www.justice.gov/opa/media/1435876/dl

https://sfdistrictattorney.org/texas-man-charged-with-two-counts-of-attempted-murder-and-multiple-other-felonies-in-connection-to-incendiary-destructive-device-thrown-at-russian-hill-residence/

https://x.com/mehran__jalali/status/2042755218819961048?s=20 

https://morenogama.substack.com/p/ai-existential-risk-is-real

https://www.businessinsider.com/sam-altman-molotov-attack-suspect-daniel-moreno-gama-houston-2026-4

https://sfstandard.com/2026/04/12/sam-altman-s-home-targeted-second-attack/ 

https://www.wdsu.com/article/atf-suspected-molotov-cocktail-starts-fire-tesla-new-orleans-service-center/71025308?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot 

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/altman-sf-attack-crisis-parents-22208428.php

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sam-altmans-attacker-in-his-own-words/id1839942885?i=1000761713169

UCSD and the Palestine Exception to Free Speech

https://palestinelegal.org/the-palestine-exception

Executive Disorder: SPLC Indictment, Denaturalization, Iran

https://www.justice.gov/opa/media/1437146/dl

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fbi-irs-investigate-nonprofits-domestic-terrorism-links/

https://apnews.com/article/southern-poverty-law-center-criminal-investigation-db7fdcf9baa0d1b24b8f1e1f2cebc0be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25dlBorkAy4&t=88s

https://x.com/EagleEdMartin/status/2046765129899934132?s=20

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/73220023/kerkhoff-v-blaze-media-llc/

https://www.npr.org/2026/04/22/nx-s1-5787989/redistricting-map-trump-midterms-congress

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2026/us/elections/results-virginia-redistricting.html 

https://x.com/RapidResponse47/status/2047006423612293170?s=20

https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/2045503858130956788?s=20

https://www.uscis.gov/join 

https://www.usajobs.gov/job/847039500

https://www.uscis.gov/newsroom/news-releases/dhs-launches-landmark-uscis-fraud-investigation-in-minnesota

https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-immigration/how-legal-immigration-became-a-deportation-trap

https://www.uscis.gov/newsroom/news-releases/belizean-woman-found-guilty-of-naturalization-fraud

https://www.uscis.gov/newsroom/news-releases/justice-department-files-case-to-revoke-us-citizenship-of-mastermind-behind-multimillion-dollar-tax

https://x.com/WhiteHouse/status/2046233734374916125?s=20

https://x.com/CENTCOM/status/2046085543348293851?s=20

https://x.com/CENTCOM/status/2045969284690788615

https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/116444507618729432

https://www.axios.com/2026/04/21/desantis-trump-administration-attorney-general

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-set-reclassify-marijuana-early-wednesday-axios-reports-2026-04-22/

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2026/04/accelerating-medical-treatments-for-serious-mental-illness/ 

https://x.com/samfbiddle/status/2046276304765620699?s=20

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/25/25-1083/404329/20260413154031213_2026.04.13_Mullin%20v.%20Doe%20-%20AC%20Brief%20of%20Fmr%20Gov%20Officials%20ISO%20Respondents_final.pdf 

https://x.com/LTC_Shoshani/status/2045913853427634404?s=20

https://x.com/KenPaxtonTX/status/2046238168543093169?s=20

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/21/world/europe/afghan-refugees-congo-us.html

https://archive.ph/82QBZ#selection-1695.42-1699.1

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-news-live-updates-b2961909.html

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/u-a-e-asks-u-s-for-a-wartime-financial-lifeline-3f9ea3a0

https://apnews.com/article/federal-reserve-kevin-warsh-jerome-powell-dd88a3f06eddcada4db555fe11e547eb

https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2026/04/21/congress/gop-senators-committee-probe-as-good-offramp-to-end-warsh-standoff-00884707

https://www.politico.com/news/2026/04/15/thom-tillis-federal-reserve-trump-00874999

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcript

Speaker 1

Also media, Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions.

Speaker 2

Welcome to it could happen here a podcast where I explained fake money things that are actually real too, Molly, Molly, thank you so much for coming back on. I am your host, Bio long. I am excited to learn now long ago in a galaxy far far away. And I'm saying this because I legitimately do not remember how many weeks ago have you released the original one of this.

But back in that episode where we explain shadow banking, I said that I had had to cut off the part of the episode that was the reason why I wrote it in the first voice, it happens to me every week, Yes, so Comma, I've also kind of had to split some of this episode off. That will probably that will be another episode, probably with ezetron whenever I have enough seconds in my life to pull all of that together. But today we are here to talk about

the actual sort of shadow bank run. I guess you would call it financial problems that caused me to write the shadow banking episode in the first place.

Speaker 3

Oh right, why I originally asked you what shadow banking is some kind of economy problem? And there was like a fake run on the fake banks.

Speaker 2

Yes, and Molly, you will be extremely unhappy to note that a big part of the reason why there was the fake run on the fank banks was that the shadow banks loaned a bunch of money to a different type of shadow bank.

Speaker 3

I don't think they should have done that, and.

Speaker 2

That shadow bank went under. Great things are.

Speaker 3

Happening here, but they're not FDIC insured.

Speaker 4

Me ah, no, no, nope, nope.

Speaker 2

So okay, this gets us back to our original definition of a shadow bank, which is that it's a bank that does banking things. That's not a bank, so it's not ensured by the FDIC. They don't have to have money on hand to make sure that they can't be a bank run on them.

Speaker 3

Right, So they just said no more transactions please.

Speaker 2

Yes, So what Molly is referring to is a few weeks ago. I guess maybe like a month ago. At this point, there was actually a breakthrough into the kind of mainstream ish of some stuff that I've been brewing in the financial news for a while, and that was that a bunch of companies, Morgan stan Lee and Blackrock I think we're kind of the two biggest ones that stopped this, although a bunch of these sort of smaller what are called private credit firms also sort of did things like this.

Speaker 3

And so because they're not really banks, there's no regulation that says they have have to serve their customers, right, They can just say no, okay.

Speaker 2

So this is part of what's really a shit show.

Speaker 4

I guess let's start.

Speaker 3

At the beginning. So what happened? Sorry I got as derailed.

Speaker 2

Yeah, let's run back to the specific thing we're talking about here is a thing called private credit, and so private credit, I'm just going to read this thing from the teller window, which is, I don't know, the telor window is actually a decently useful thing. Where the telor window is the FED is like I'm going to explain something to normal people. Now. The problem is that this is still the Federal Reserve. So their explanation for normal people. By normal people, they mean.

Speaker 4

Like, I don't know, like dipshit day traders, right.

Speaker 3

Normal people don't have questions about the Federal Reserve.

Speaker 2

Yeah, so it's like this is like for people who are kind of know this stuff but are running into this like arcane subfield for the first time. So I'm just going to quote from them because I think it's an interesting place to start. Although there is no universal definition, which you know things are going great when our second episode in a road talking about it, you can't all agree what it's so good? It's so good, Although there

is no universal definition. Private credit generally refers to a loan that is negotiated between a borrower and a small group of non bank lenders. These non bank financial institution lenders are typically alternative asset managers such as private equity firms, who package loans in different investment vehicles. Other non bank financial institutions like pension funds, insurance companies, and sovereign wealth

funds then invest in those vehicles. So this is the stuff that we talked about from last episode, where Okay, so you have multiple layers of shadow banks, right, you have on the one hand that the private credit firms are these these sort of groups that go in and sometimes they're just their own things. There's a bunch of different kinds of of them. Private equities firms tend to have like one arm of the private equity firm that's there,

like this is our shiny private credit wing. There were also these things called business development corporations which do these. There are like other types of them too, But basically what those companies do is they go in and they negotiate a loan with a usually a pretty long term for repayments on the loan with a company. Now, the thing about these loans is that the terms of those loans are secret from everybody. Yeah, even the people involved.

Well when I say secret, I mean the company that's taking out the loan and the bank know how they work. No one else does. And then what happens is these are usually fairly risky loans, because if you weren't doing a risky loan, you would get your money through like a normal bank. Yeah, you will to do it normal style, right,

this is not normal style. These are risky. And then they do the thing called curitization, which we talked about last episode where you take a loan and do magic to it and turn it into something that someone else can buy.

Speaker 3

Whatever happened to products and services? Meo, whatever happened to products?

Speaker 2

Well, because products and services make less money than betting on products and services. This is this is also where this is all going. So there are some real issues here with private credit.

Speaker 3

So we're buying and selling money that isn't real, and add the absence of money that isn't real. And then so what happened when there was the run on the fake bank.

Speaker 2

Well, that's that's kind of work because you how can you do a run on a bank if there's no money because you're not asking to get your money back out of it because.

Speaker 3

There was never any money.

Speaker 2

Well, so here's the thing. So a lot of the way that these things work sometimes like they are obviously selling the loans and packages, but a lot of the way that it works is that it does kind of work like a normal bank, which is, I mean, instead of being a lender, you're like an investor, but you give them a bunch of your money and they give

it to these loan things. So it is just literally a normal bank, except it's not subject to banking regulations and it's risk here, right, So like like Apollo Capital Management or whatever, it's like you give a bunch of money to Apollo Capital Management, just like lower capital whatever is like Apollogobal Capital is one of the big firms in this thing, and then they give that money out and loans and then you're basically just supposed to wait

because you know, remember last episode we talked about how in the way that normal bank works, Right, there's like a fundamental kind of gap right where you are putting your money in as like a short term thing that you can take out immediately, and then the bank is turning the short term money into a long term loan.

Speaker 4

Right.

Speaker 3

It takes time for the money to grow up.

Speaker 2

Yes, And the reason we have financial regulations is to force the banks to have money on hand so that if you need your money back, you can take it out. Now, these banks don't have this because these are shadow banks.

Speaker 4

They're the credit rs of private equity.

Speaker 2

They're fucking, I don't know, they're like capital management firms.

Speaker 3

They're like dude, Right, So, like a normal run on the bank is like obviously the bank doesn't have one hundred percent of all like I put cash in the bank. We all put cash in the bank, and everyone wants all their cash back. The bank doesn't have one hundred percent of that cash to get that, right, It's like they haven't invested, and it hasn't those loans haven't.

Speaker 4

Matured yet and things like that.

Speaker 3

But theoretically, if all those loans matured, that bank does have all of those dollars. But the shadow bank, they're selling these same loans to multiple people, So even if everything matured properly, they don't have all of those dollars anymore.

Speaker 4

Yeah, dollars don't all exist.

Speaker 2

I mean, Jimmy fair, the bank's dollars also work like that because the banks are also selling their loans off.

Speaker 3

But well, you're saying that they were using like the same mortgage to secure a bunch of different.

Speaker 2

Yeah, right, so that's like, yeah, that's like a classic shadow banking thing. We're actually going to get back to that because they're doing an even dumber version of that now.

Speaker 3

I'm just saying it seems like a run on the bank would be kind of inevitable even in a minor crisis, because they're too have most of the money they're pretending exists yeah.

Speaker 2

Well, but so okay, So I think what I would say about that is that this is also a problem for regular banks, right, Like I don't think this is actually a structurally different crisis, like because like the crisis here is just that the money is out in loans and they they don't have it on hand. And this is the structural crisis that the private credit people are doing, is that their money is also out on loans, so

they don't have it. And a lot of these loans are like seven year loans in like very risky companies. So the money like really isn't.

Speaker 3

There, right because that venture capital like whatever is that's an inflated valuation. So you're talking about like almost ten billion dollars, but it isn't it never will be, and it never was.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Well, and the other thing that's going on too, right, it is like these are supposed to be risky loans, so they have a high rate of.

Speaker 4

Return if they return.

Speaker 2

But yes, and this and this is where this gets not good because so the US private credit market is one point three trillion dollars like under management. The global market is like three point five trillion dollars of assets. I'm not really going to go into the Chinese private

credit market here, because that's its own episode. But the way that these that these companies deal with this is that they have these funds, right, and then the fund gives out like the loans, and they have a limit to the total amount of like the percent of the value of the fund that can be taken out at one time. And that's what's been being hit. The industry standard is supposed to be about five percent of the fund can be withdrawn per quarter, and then after that

they just shut down redemptions. And that's what you saw in the news because a bunch of companies, and some of these companies have higher limits than are like almost like eight or nine, like like ten percent, and they'll stop it at like nine roughly.

Speaker 3

So, more than anything, shutting down redemptions is an indicator that the market has panicked, right, that the investors are spooked and they want their money back because this risky investment is now looking like a very bad choice.

Speaker 2

Yes, but this is a real structural problem because right.

Speaker 3

But like as a measurement of something, it's just like what we're measuring is how many investors are shitting their pants.

Speaker 2

And there's a reason they're shitting their pants, and the reason they're shitting their pants is that basically all of these firms have been eating a colossal amount of shit. And the reason they're eating a colossal amount.

Speaker 4

Of shit, I mean, some of it is very stupid.

Speaker 2

Some of them are eating shit because they gave money to like normal tech firms, but then now they're all scared they're gonna get out competed by AI firms. Some of them have given a bunch of money Blue Owl particularly, and this is what we're gonna get into in the episode with Ed has given a lot of money to AI firms, which is a fucking nightmare. Great investment, Yeah, incredible stuff going on.

Speaker 3

I'm sure. I'm sure that's what Ed will say. Ed will say that was a good investment.

Speaker 2

It's so fun. It's so fun. The main thing that they've been eating shit on. And this is where this kind of hit the mainstream because a whole bunch of normal banks also ate shit on this JP Morgan ate shit on this loan. So a huge amount of money was poured into this firm called Tricolor, which we touched on briefly last episode but then didn't really talk about much.

Speaker 6

About what it did.

Speaker 2

So, Okay, JP Morgan has lost one hundred and seventy million dollars. Oh no, big gill Yeah, which and it's fun It's funny because like the JP Morgan CEO were like, yeah, we kind of ate shit on this, and also their CEO gave this quote where he was like, where there's one cockroach, there's probably more, which is like an extremely normal thing for the finance kind of saying about the market.

Speaker 3

Haven't we have an infestation of accidentally losing one hundred and seventy million dollars?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean it's not great, but like in the grand scheme of things, right, like JP Morgan does have four trillion or something dollars under management.

Speaker 3

Right, But if he's saying, if there's one cockroach, there's more, yeah, Usually if you have one cockroach, you have one hundred cockroaches. So if you have one hundred, one hundred and seventy million dollar fuck.

Speaker 2

Ups, yes, and that's not great, right. And like Barclays, which is the very sort of like prestigious British bank, which also ate shit for doing this kind of stuff. Two two thousand and eight also lost like one hundred million pounds what's interesting about this specific one is this firm, Tricolor, is a subprime auto loan company.

Speaker 4

Oh, that's a phenomenal business model, Molly.

Speaker 3

So they're responsible for the Nissan Ultima.

Speaker 2

Yeah, this is that this is what is known as an idea that could not possibly have gone right. It's very funny because when you read the stuff from Tricolor, they're all like, oh, we're trying to like help people who are like underserved in markets who need cars.

Speaker 3

Oh so, but here's the thing about a shitty auto loan is you know, right, you are serving an underserved community. You are serving people with bad credit who might not otherwise be able to get a car. But you're serving them by fucking them. Yes, and this is what you can tell. Yeah, they they know that they're lying about this, right, it's just so evil.

Speaker 2

Yeah, And like this is all downstream of you know, this is all downstream with the fact that we've built our cities around cars, right, And we built our cities around cars specifically, and this is a really fun thing. We built our cities around cars specifically because we had created so much manufacturing capacity after World War Two that like Ford and General Motors had like pumped into that. They were like, we need a fucking way to make

money off of all of this. And this is also, by the way, why we did the Marshall Plan, like we rebuilt Europe to sell cars to them.

Speaker 3

It's this terrible snowball of like induced demand and then dealing with that and then the fallout of that, and yeah, trying to reorganize from that. Yeah, and we have destroyed the world with this.

Speaker 4

It rocks.

Speaker 3

Thank you, Henry Ford.

Speaker 2

It's so good.

Speaker 6

It's so good.

Speaker 2

We have literally like Earth is fucked because of this. This is like one of the largest engines of global climate change is the fact that we had all these fucking factories after World War Two and these companies didn't want to eat shit on them.

Speaker 3

So now so everybody needs a car, but they can't afford one. So now we have a fake bank doing fake fucking auto loans.

Speaker 6

Yep.

Speaker 2

Who By the way, and I kind of emphasize this enough, right, The hole that we are in here is that there is in theory, if you're gonna be running a market economy, there is like room in it for Hey, this person has a long shot but good business idea, and we need to get the money.

Speaker 3

Sure, Like there's nothing wrong with the idea of loans.

Speaker 4

Yeah, but if your whole.

Speaker 3

Business model is exploiting people who need loans, yeah.

Speaker 2

But this is you know, this is going one layer up from like this subprime model loan company.

Speaker 6

Right.

Speaker 2

The problem that we're going to hit with all of these private credit firms is that they're giving loans to just this shit.

Speaker 6

Right.

Speaker 2

The things that they're giving high risk loans to aren't like interesting businesses. They're subprime auto loan companies and they're like weird ai data center creation companies. Right, It's like that shit. And this is this is where everything goes to shit because you know, and it's something that actually wasn't really reported on very much in in a lot

of the coverage on these companies eating shit. But like what this company was doing was they were literally doing all of the two thousand and eight stuff.

Speaker 6

Right.

Speaker 2

They give out these subprime loans, which they know like a bunch of them are going to fail, They pull them all together into these like tranches of loans, and then they sell them off doing doing the secure stuff we talked about last time, and again this is literally exactly how the subprime mortgage crisis worked, except we're doing it with auto loans. It seems a little bit more evil. Yeah,

And they're doing this thing right. They're doing the thing that we saw with the housing loans, where the same card is collateral for multiple of these loans. And the reason they're doing this right is that this company, Tricolor, their entire business model is trying to borrow more money from banks so that they can send out more of these shitty auto loans so they can then sell that

stuff back. And so they're also like heavily leveraged, right because they're they're taking out like every single loan they can possibly do. They're doing instruments so that they're the collateral on the loans that they are taking. So they take that money and give out more of these shitty auto loans. The collateral on that is multiple of the shitty auto loans.

Speaker 3

I mean, I would say it's a house of cards, but like, ye, it's not even it's not even that it's imaginary. It's just it's h like the bottom row on this house of cards is just your imagination.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's it's wildly coyote running off the cliff and he's just sitting there and as long as his feet are moving, no one realizes that that like, wait, hold on, this is the This is literally the fakest thing I've ever seen. And then it goes under and this is a shit show. That's the only possible outcome, the only possile way it could have one under is like we've we've done this before, we all washed two thousand and eight.

Speaker 3

But there's not like an ideal version of this where it works.

Speaker 4

This can only not work. Yeah, it's insane.

Speaker 2

It's like, why are we doing because there was one year where it made a billion dollars?

Speaker 3

Right, Buying Ponzi schemes are really profitable the first year.

Speaker 4

Right, right, that's like that's the thing, right.

Speaker 3

It really it works out really good for the first guy.

Speaker 2

Yeah, And like like part of what's going on here too is you know, like and this is some of the stuff that caused the original bubble. But like we have this era like the the early twenty twenties and like late twenty tens that's like the zero fed in just rate errow, right, where like it is basically just free to borrow money, and so there's just all of this money slashing around that there's nothing to invest into.

This fuels all sorts of just like heinous shit, right, because there's suddenly just like all of these pools of capital with like nothing to invest in, and so they're investing it in like defense companies and like Palanier and shit, like that.

Speaker 4

Is this why we got stuff like the juice.

Speaker 2

Ro Yeah, but that's like the everything right is like no, but like like like the JUICEO thing is like legitimate.

Speaker 3

Venture capital was just like pouring money into stuff that was just like not fucking real. Yeah you could, you could juice fruit a huh.

Speaker 2

And like like this is you know, I talked about this on a different episode about venture capital, and like the way that it's done tech fascistm right, was eventually they started putting that money into like building the material basis for like a tech fascist state. And that's what they've been doing in sort of I.

Speaker 3

Kind of wish they stuck to their cocaine ideas.

Speaker 4

Like juice ero.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that was a better more fun than fascism. No, it's more fun than like turning every single door in every single car in San Francisco into a surveillance machine and then like going in and like basically cooing governments and yeah, but on the sort of like pure financial end of this, you get all of these companies that are just pouring all of this money into there's those layers of this too, right where like you know, if you're like like JP Morgan, which is like an actual bank,

right one, Yeah, yeah, the real one is like pouring money into these like into these like shadow banks, right because they're they're chasing a high rate of return. And this is like what happened in two thousand and eight was like there everyone was like, oh, these bonds have

a really high rated return, the mortgage rack securities. And now we've reached the point where I think, God where this is the most recent news from this and Molly, I'm just gonna read you the thing from Reuters quote JP Morgan, Chase, Barclays and other Wall Street banks have started trading credit default swaps linked to flagship private credit funds run by Blackstone, Apollo Global Management, and Aris Managements, the Financial Times reported on Friday.

Speaker 3

And that's a good idea for them to do.

Speaker 2

Oh this is really fun because now what we're doing is they're now opening the markets to bet on these things to fail.

Speaker 3

Ray, I just I don't understand why so much of the economy is based on these bets that bad things will happen. Yeah, it's like if everything collapses, some guys are gonna get so rich. If a thousand people get their cars repossessed, one guy gets so rich. Like that's not a great way to run an.

Speaker 2

Economy, you know. John Mayard Kines a guy who is I would argue responsible for this. This is his fault for like stabilizing the capitalist economies in the middle of the Great Depression. But Canes is like a welfare state guy, but he's also a capitalist. And he has this line about how, like the economy shouldn't be run by a casino, to which I would be like, okay, Canes, but like.

Speaker 3

The economy is a casino.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 4

It's like it's like, this.

Speaker 2

Is your fault for not being willing to like not have a market economy, right, Like, like we could, we could achieve the dream of not having your economy be run by a casino. This is a thing that you could do. It's just that you can't.

Speaker 4

Was a youth before.

Speaker 3

I don't think he realized that, like we literally do have a.

Speaker 2

Casttell one kind of did, right, because it's it's not a euphemism anymore.

Speaker 3

I'm going to necromans him and tell him about polymarket.

Speaker 2

Oh yeah, he he would lose his mind about polymarket. But like, like he's watching people just like betting on stock right, and he's watching a bunch of people.

Speaker 3

Have the Ouiji board and tell that bitch about college.

Speaker 2

Well you know this, this this is like we're going back in time and showing him Calshi and he's like, oh fuck, okay, I'm like I am now again. I am now against the market as an idea. We cannot let this come to pass. But like you know this, this this has been like a known issue with the

market as a system for a long time. But it's a problem because in theory you could try to go through and like regulate this stuff, but like investment is just gambling to some extent, right, And when you talk to the people who believe in this stuff, they're like, well, no, you can't have stock markets without sort of equities markets, and you can't have these things without the ability to bet on it. And I would say, okay, well don't have it then, Like I think this is a really

simple solution. But you know, these people are like, no, no, no, no. In order to mention a capital's economy, you must it must be possible for a bunch of people to be placing bets on the companies that give money to some I'm auto loan companies failing.

Speaker 3

I guess that's the point where like I get off the train where you say, well, in order to maintain a capitalist economy, and I'm like, yeah, exactly, dog, I.

Speaker 5

Don't want to do that, and like, this is why this is a terrible idea, Like it's it's a bad idea for first principles, and we're all living in like the nightmare healthscape of this being a bad idea.

Speaker 3

Yeah, so the movie that's maybe that's why I can't get it, because this does make some kind of sense to like an evil guy who wants it to be this way, but I don't want it to be this way.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Well, and I very deliberately I went and I went into when I was learning economics and when I was learning political economy from the perspective of like, okay, how do you destroy this right and this part, this part seems fragile. Yeah, but it's like one of these things where it's like, okay, this is going to break on its own.

Speaker 3

But I guess the problem is is it does keep breaking on its own. It's just that we keep bailing it out and reconstructing it, propping up the house built on sand.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and that's the part, or you know, like this is a thing where the intervention of masses of people onto the stage of history has to happen. Where if you want this to not be the way that the system works when it breaks down, you have to be organized enough to be like, no, fuck this, We're not going to sacrifice all of our lives to reopen the casino. We are going to either tear the casino down or turn the casino into like housing or whatever.

Speaker 3

So when there was this run on the fake banks and they stopped it, what happened after that? I guess because that was my original question, right, It's like, what does the run on a fake bank even look like or do?

Speaker 2

Yeah? So basically what happened is that they just like stopped the redemptions and everyone got really really pissed off. But there's not that much they can do about it because.

Speaker 3

Because I'm sure that was in the terms and conditions whenever they signed up to do financial crimes together.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And what's been happening now though, is that this is this has been spreading kind of panic about just I don't know, they would call it like the asset class in general.

Speaker 3

Oh, like, maybe it wasn't a good idea to invest all your money into this fake product.

Speaker 2

No, it was, in fact a terrible idea. And this is this is, this is I think why we're we've mismanaged your client's funds. Yeah, and this this is I think why we're starting to get the like Blackrock fucking credit default swaps, right, because the market is being like, oh, hey, all these people are pissed off about the fact that we designed our unhinged private credit shadow banking system in such a way that you can't get your money out of it. What if we capitalize on that by letting

people bet on it? And that's that's good. So right now we're in this kind of limbo world and this is this is this is the entire global economy, right. Everyone is sitting here pretending like the apocalypse isn't happening. And that's the basis of the entire economy. I mean, what am I supposed to do about it?

Speaker 6

Yeah?

Speaker 2

But it's like, you know, but there's there's there's a difference between you and us doing this and the people who have all of the money in the world who are sitting there pretending that like there's like some very easy way out of this war that we're that we're waging as lebron right, and that it's not going to just keep going even though there's no good way to get a ceasefire. And you know, like no one, no one in charge of the US as any idea what

they're doing. They're they're they're in some ways, they're they're doing the strategy they did in like the lockdown phase of the pandemic, where they're.

Speaker 3

Just waiting for it to burn itself out.

Speaker 2

Yeah, where they're like, Okay, well we're going to ask for a bunch of money.

Speaker 3

But when you do that with the global economy.

Speaker 2

Yeah, right, And like I had a friend who described it as like the fundamental problems that these people are incentivized to just think that everything will keep going right for them because.

Speaker 4

It has because eventually it will right, they'll be fine.

Speaker 2

Yeah, But like eventually there's a point where that runs out, and when it hits there's going to be this sort of chilling discovery that like, oh yeah, the entire last like fifteen years of their sort of being an economy has been this like weird tech capitalist mirage, and once that fails, we I guess we're already in the time of monsters.

Speaker 4

So whoo oh.

Speaker 3

I don't have any other marketable skills. You can't collapse. I'm a podcaster.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Hum, well, this has been it could happen here it did I learn anything? I don't know, honestly, this is just they're doing it all again, and it's even dumber this time. Oh god.

Speaker 3

Yeah, at least there were houses last time. Now there's not even a no.

Speaker 2

Now there's a problem. Shitty auto loans. Mollie. Where can people find your very very lovely show.

Speaker 3

You can find me wherever you get your podcast, you can subscribe to my show, Weird Little Guys. It's fun, you'll like it. Yeah. I'm in the middle of a series right now about a segregationist attorney who loved the Confederacy so much that he built a twenty five foot tall Confederate monument out of old bathtubs. It's fun, you'll love it.

Speaker 2

Does he blow up a school bus? This is fine, No.

Speaker 3

But he did go to YMC a night YMC a Night Last, which is a night law school through the YMCA in Nashville, so that he could get better at doing segregation.

Speaker 4

Like he wasn't a lawyer.

Speaker 3

And then in mid life he was like, I were go to law school at night so he could do busing cases, so he could take bussing cases. So he didn't blow any buses up, but he did blow up.

Speaker 4

A lot of people's lives.

Speaker 3

Great, but that great anyway, check out We're little guys.

Speaker 2

Yeah, And if you want to stop there from being both we're little guys and also having our economy be run on betting on funny money, go like organize a union, or like join your local affinity group, or start doing food not bombs, or do what literally literally do anything, because if we do nothing, we will continue to live in the world of the segregation lawyer who build statues out of bathtubs, and also the subprime auto loan defaults.

Speaker 4

At least go outside and take a walk.

Speaker 7

Yeah.

Speaker 8

The National Geographics Encyclopedia says that indigenous refers to people or objects that are native to a certain region or environment, whether they grow there, live there, or produced there, or occur naturally there. When it comes to flora and fauna, they are considered indigenous to an ecosystem when they haven't been introduced through human intervention or manipulated by human cultivation.

Over millions of years, these living things have become well suited to their habitats, carefully adapted to the region's soil, climate, and food web. Or when it comes to people, it can be some confusion about what it means to be indigenous, especially when it comes to questions of land rights, autonomy,

and a rapria. Most people understand that Native American nations and Aboriginal Austragulians are indigenous, but some might then ask, well, if indigenous means originating from a place, then aren't all holesapiens indigenous to Africa? Why should one group's claim of indigena and you take precedence over any other. This would be asked in more or less good faith, and so others may ask the question, well, if a group occupies a region for several generations, does that then make them indigenous?

White Americans indigenous if their family has been there since they found in the United States, French people indigenous to France, and if so does that somehow justify their xenophobia to water refugees and some weird reactionary corruption of declonial rhetoric.

Speaking of corruptions of de colonial rhetoric, some Zionists claim that Jewish people as a whole are indigenous to Palestine in some twisted perversion of land back, while Zionism itself has long understood itself as a colonial project meant to displace and eliminate the indigenous inhabitants of past Die from its very beginning. Some white nationalists also argue that settler columnalism was really no different than any other conflict between

indigenous people, So what does it even matter? Might mix right among? Generations of marginalized groups have been struggling to retain their social, cultural, economic, and political sovereignty and achieved justice, reparations, liberation after centuries of oppression and attempted annihilation. We need to stand in informed solidarity. Thus it is vital for us to understand what it means to be indigenous. Welcome take it up here. I'm Andrew Sage Andrewism on YouTube and I'm here again.

Speaker 2

With Miir Wong, the other host of this podcast.

Speaker 8

Yes, and we are here to discuss two approaches to understand and indignity. Obviously, this is not the final word on the matter, but just one perspective that I've drawn primarily from the work of North American Indigenous authors, namely Tayaki Alfred, Jeff Conticel, and Robin Wall Kimera. So you know,

keep that in mind as we proceed. There may be other positions and perspectives and indignity coming from other groups, other people, and so I believe there are two principle highly overlapping ways that indignity can be defined or interpreted. One is as an identity formed as part of a colonial relationship, and two as an identity rooted in a relationship to police. I believe that each definition is incomplete

without the other. But by understanding and synthesizing each notion of indigenousness, we can better ground our approach dec organization and social revolution. So let's start with indignity as identity rooted in a relationship to place, whether it be physical as with land, social as with community, or cultural as with culture. As indigenous relationship to the land must be reciprocal with give and take, base on a view of the land and water as a gift that must be

cared for over generations. According to Honotiony mythology, as recounted by Robin Wild Kimra in braidin Sweet Grass, the mother goddess Skywoman came to the land as an immigrant from the heavens, but became indigenous by listening to the land, learning from other species to understand how to live on it, given as she received, and caring for the earth and its keepers for the sake of those who would inherit

it when she passed on. Land is identity, it is ancestral connection, It is pharmacy, it is library, and it is home, the source of all the sustains and the sacred ground upon which those would observe their responsibility to boot. So by this understanding, it can be said that indigenity is born out of land connection and established through observation

and relationship. Indigenous peoples have historically been mobile, either by choice or by force, but regardless of where they might find themselves quote unquote whole land or not, even if there were other indigenous peoples in their new environments, as long as they observe the processes and ceremonies of generational relationship building based on mutual respect, understanding, and love for

the land in common, they remained indigenous. So then the question may arise, why aren't settlers indigenous to place if their family has lived in the land for generations. The answer lies in relationship. Settler society as a whole is based on an extractivist capitalist relationship with the land. Focus

are exploiting the land and it's now natural resources. Without a relationship with the land that extends the reference to a deeper understanding of its complex interdependence, settler society can never become indigenous to place. Of course, it goes without saying that not every indigenous group or indigious practice is perfectly sustainable. Some have been rather destructive and even speciocidal, particularly when they have recently moved into a place, as

we could see in North American prehistory. But if we are to work with this definition to conceive of being indigenous as something based and cultivating a long term relationship to place, then indignity must be contingent on maintaining the health and longevity of that relationship. Without community, they cannot be indignity. Much like the trees in a forest are interconnected via subterranean networks of microreze which enable them to

share resources and survive as a whole. In order to be indigenous to place, community must exist sustain that web of reciprocity with the land so that all may flourish. Indigenaity to place extends to culture as well, which is deeply tied to the land it develops on. Such practices should be reciprocal, as ceremonies create communities, and communities create ceremonies as well as organic not appropriate in existing cultural

celebrations or tending toward commercial. Our social fabric has become withered and fragmented by the peace of modern life, leaving little room for ceremonies outside of religion or rights of personal transitions such as birth these weddings and funerals, but ceremonies and the shared emotions they generate are part of

what builds community. When we gather for graduations, for example, a sense of pride, relief, nostalgia, and excitement builds in the social atmosphere, hopefully fuel in the confidence and strength of those who are going on to pursue the rest of their lives. But Kimura wants us to imagine standing by a river flooded with those same feelings as the

salmon marched into the auditorium of the estuary. The indigenous to police means cultivating cultural ceremonies that on other land and all the cycles and seasons of life within it. What are your thoughts on that interpretation or approach to indigenousy.

Speaker 2

I think there's a lot there that's interesting. I think I'm getting a better sense of what you were saying at the beginning when you were like, this probably needs to be synthesized with the definition that's also about like

a relationship to colonialism. Yeah, but you know, there's some sort of fun question mark examples of like the Chinese Empire failing this where it's like like you do have a lot of stuff that's like, Okay, we're going to like build a relationship in nature, but the build a relationship in nature stuff is like we are going to clear this forest in order to build a temple that is like exactly set up on like a pentagram or whatever. So it's like, okay, hold on, hold on, hold on.

We have failed in creating a relationship to the land if we are in fact just making geometry shapes.

Speaker 8

Yeah, I think empires by then nature, yeah, are going to run into some difficulties, to put it mildly, they're going to run into some difficulties with actually maintaining a reciprocal relationship with that because empires are built on extraction of people and of resources, yep. Which you're absolutely right that there has to be a synthesis of this definition

with the idea of indignity as a colonial relationship. According to Taiyaki Alfred and Jeff Contis, indigenousness is an identity constructed, shaped, and lived in the politicized context of contemporary clue nalism. It is an experience oppositional to colonial societies and states, and a consciousness of struggle against such forces of colonization.

No two indigenous groups are exactly alike, of course, there is a significant diversity in their cultures, contexts, and relationships with colonial forces, but they do share that struggle to survive as distinct peoples in an environment hostile to their existence. Efforts to marginalize and eradicate indigenous peoples may not always be as overt as they once were, but the historic and ongoing dispossession of indigenous peoples, the erasure of indigenous histories, geographies,

and languages and the current situation of deprivation persists. Nonetheless, even so called reconciliation efforts are tainted by the reality that Indigenous people remain, as in earlier colonial eras fundamentally occupied and disempowered peoples, stripped of autonomy in their own home life and pressured into surrender and cooperation with an inherently unjust colonial order just to ensure their basic physical survival.

By this understanding of indigenity, it can be said that without a colonizer, without systems in place and actions being taken to marginalize, disempower and destroy their societies in favor of a colonial replacement, there is no indigenous. Without colonialism, there would be no status of indigenous to be imposed upon the groups of peoples whose very existence and claimed

land is an obstacle to that colonial endeavor. The un work In Group on Indigenous Issues drew partially from this understanding when they attempted to define indigenous peoples in nineteen eighty six. Quote Indigenous communities, peoples, and nations are those which having a historical continuity with pre invasion and pre colonial societies that develops on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors other societies now prevailing on those territories

or parts of them. They form at present non dominant sectors of society and are determined to preserve, develop, and transmit to future generations their ancestral territories and their ethnic identity as the basis of their continued existence as peoples in accordance with their own cultural patterns, social institutions, and

legal systems. And so by this definition, the Amerindians in the Caribbean, Aboriginal Australians, Adivasis in India, Native North and South Americans, Siberians, Ainu, kurds, Assyrians, Yazidi Palestinians, Amy Sikh Sambi, Basques, Hawaiians, Maori, san Wuti, Papuans, Chams, and many many more are all indigenous peoples. But there are layers of nuance yet to be highlighted. The colonial situation is not a simple binary of indigenous and colonizer. For example, in the Americas, we

have the immigrant situation and the situation of slavery. Right where Africans are concerned they were indigenous to their own homelands but displaced and enslaved under the colonial regime, they may not be indigenous to the Americas, but they were not driving settled colonial society either. In fact, historically some

were actually enslaved by indigenous people as well. At the same time, there were members of the African aspora who would join existing indigenous societies and later create their own, such as the Garifuna of Saint Vincent Tranduras and belize. It's very attractive, i would say, or mentally compelling to fall into these kinds of binaries colonizer and visions. But

we should not allow these constructs to pindhole picture. Yeah, And I mean this is you mentioned the Kurds earlier, right, And there's a couple of political principles that groups like the pew Id, you know, and sort of like the Kurtish Freedom Movement have had to grapple, like what of their things is grappling with Like for example, there was like huge Courtish participation in the Armenian genocide.

Speaker 2

And if you look at the Kurdish Regional government in a rock when I want to talk about the PEWID, that's like like Curtaish freedom movement in Syria in a rock, there's like the Iraqi Kurdish Regional government right, which is run by a different group, but those people, you know, and this is one of these things where like there are Kurtish people on both sides of this conflict, like that group attempted to, for example, like prevent Ezd people

from returning to their homes after they were like genocided there from there.

Speaker 4

By isis right.

Speaker 2

So it's it's this, it's this thing where like all of this stuff gets kind of messy depending on like who has power in a given moment. And it's something that's to some extent fluid enough that you can on the one hand, like be experiencing a genocide and then also immediately turn around and you know, be be the Kurdish regional government and attempt to assist the genocide, to attempt to like do a genocide against the disease you can take more of their land.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 2

But then on the other hand, you know, you have the PYD who was like backing was backing the Azids in that fight against like against the kurs regional government. So it's yeah.

Speaker 8

Yeah, I think it's very it's very easy to slip into this notion that the experience of oppression will necessarily cause you to develop cold or consistent critique of oppression. But often what we see in history is that oppression results in that group perfatuating harm down the line in other ways, either within their own group or inflicting that harm and other groups. There's something intrinsic to any group that grants them immunity from falling into those same patterns

of domination, abuse, oppression, and harm. People look to the example of Israel a lot, but a less similiar example for some would be the situation that established Liberia in Africa.

Speaker 6

You know, where you.

Speaker 8

Literally had the descendants of enslave people or formerly enslaved people going on to engage in settler cunalism in the territory that became Liberia, to oppress disadvantage the indigenous populations that previously occupy those territories and well continue to occupy those territories today. They created a stratified society that placed them at the top, mirroring the very system that they had fled.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and this is the thing where it's like it doesn't mean that, you know, people like swing around on the other end and be like, well, we actually have to like maintain the colonial relationship, because like, what if these people then did colonialism on us it's like no, yeah, no, it's not no.

Speaker 8

Because you hear people making that argument with three gods to like three Palestine, right yeah, people say, oh, well then the past Indians will just spin around and do a genocide on us, so we have to do a genocide on them, Like no.

Speaker 4

Yeah, And this is actually one of the things. I think there's two angles of this.

Speaker 2

One. You see that in the US too, where people are like, well, what if we do if we do land back, then they're just going to like exterminate all the white people in the US. And it's like, no, that's that's that's what you did, like like hold on, hold time. So then you know, the second angle of this too is this becomes like a motivating factor for colonizers.

And this is just something that's true historically if you look at the Bosnian genocide, right, the way that you get people to do with genocide by convincing them that the people they're doing a gedocide against are about to do a genocide against them. And you know, you see this in Bosnia, you see this Wanda. This is a very very common sort of I don't even know what you call it, like trope feels like two weeks of a word. This is a very common step in the

beginning of genocide, which I don't love. Uh So you're right, of ten Mia not pro genocide more news at ten.

Speaker 8

Yeah, Yeah, it's something wanted to mention regarding I think the application of indigenity as a concept in Asia. You know, you mentioned the situation with the zds and the goods, but your city governments of places like Indonesia and India and China and Vietnam and Bangladesh not recognizing the existence

of indigenous peoples within their territories yep. And these countries, like most countries in the world, did not ratify the International Labor Organization Convention one sixty nine in nineteen eighty nine, which was known as the Indigenous and Tribal People's Convention

considering the rights of Indigenous peoples. The UN's Declaration of the Rights and Indigenous Peoples, passed in two thousand and seven, would however, be voted on approvally by most of the world, including the same countries that haven't recognized indigenous peoples within

their borders. All four of the countries that rejected the resolution, Canada, America, Australia and New Zealand will later changed their vote in favor of the declaration of course of their own tact on interpretations and emphasies, and the declarations legally non bind in nature, as is to be expected from set the colonial societies.

Speaker 6

Yep.

Speaker 8

I'm very interested in, you know, because we do have these ethnic minorities. We do have in in case India, you have the pre Indo European groups, the tribal groups. And if you go back to the definition of indigeneity according to the UN, it speaks of groups which form at present non dominant sectors of society that are determined to preserve, develop and transmit to future generations the ancestral territories and the ethnic identity as the basis of the

continued ex systems as people, et cetera, et cetera. You know, it speaks of those having historical continuancy with pre invasion, pre colonial societies that developed in their territories. They speak of groups that consider themselves distinct other sectors as societies

and all prevailing on those territories. And so by this definition, I understand that people in in these Asian countries maybe like, oh, we're all from this place, right, So why does that group get this designation and additioners, so we do not, And it goes back to again a colonial relationship. It goes back to the relationship between a group and the

broader society. And so it's not necessarily stripping away the fact that a particular group may be from an area, but more so speaking about how another group relates to the states in that area and the group that dominates the state in that area.

Speaker 2

Yeah, like you look this in the Chinese context, and it's like, okay, so like by the time you're like bulldozing masques and shin juan, like, I think you've gotten too, Like congratulations, you have like created a indigenous settler divide.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 8

Also just just speaking like the context does not begin and end with European colonization and direct European administration and invasion and that kind of thing. You know, prior to these invasions, you did have the empires that were established in these areas. I mean, China was an empire quite famously, Japan was an empire. India was the home of several empires. Indonesia was the home of several empires. So while it may not be that this relation of indignity is based

on the Europeans attler colonialism. There is something to the history of empire in those areas, establishing those relationships, relationships that would later be elevated in some cases by those Europeans when they would come and they would for example, select one ethnic group and elevate one ethnic group over another ethnic group, make us in ethnic group administrators and put down another ethnic group. Calcify these kind of caste systems and ethnocratic divisions.

Speaker 2

Yes, Rwanda, it's like one of the literally literally yeah, there are a lot of cases where these sort of the indigenous colonizer divides become reflective of like the way that Europeans set up past systems. Sometimes that's not true though, And one of the I think most hideous examples of this is West Papua, which we very briefly mentioned earlier, where West Papua and Indonesia are like not governed by

the same colonial administration. But when Indonesia gains independence, like the government there and this is this is Sankaras government, right, this is like the nominally socialist one wants to take control of West Papua because West Papua has all of these resources and the people in West Papua don't want that, like they want to be an independence entity, but the Indonesians just roll in and invade them and you know, continue from Sukara to Sukarno. Just a unbelievably hideous series

of genocides. And one of the things that's really bleak about the sort of process of decolonization is like you can see the shift in the way that these post colonial societies are talking about what colonization is and we're resistance to it, where it ceases to become about the struggle of people against the colonizing forces that oppress them, and it turns into a something that's about like the

continuity of national borders. You know, you get a really bleak example of this where like people talk about like the Bandung conference, right, which is the sort of like it's supposed to be, like this is like the big thing in like pan Asian and Pan African like struggles coming together. We're like all these formally colonized nations like come together and like issue this issue a bunch of things, and it's supposed to be this big moment of like

this is like the unity of post colonial societies. That's like still to this day look back on in terms of like Affroasian solidarity, like this is the big one. But one of the things that they ratified at Bandung was a very small session that no one pays any attention to, which is all of these countries put in their support for Indonesia's occupation of West Papua.

Speaker 6

HM.

Speaker 2

Eventually, I'm going to do a long thing about this. It just is a really difficult subject that tackle on has to be done very carefully. But one of the things that happens is, you know, like the West Papua WANs go to the UN and all of the states that you would normally think of as like the anti colonial states are like no, fuck you, like you belong

to Indonesia. And then you get all of these other countries who are like more neutral or more US aligned, but because they're not allied with Indonesia, They're reaction is like wait, hold on, what do you mean there are black people in the Pacific A and be like holy shit,

this is fucked up. But it sets this precedent that kind of like rolls on through like pan Arabism and rolls on through a lot of these decolonial movements where once you've gotten your state, it's fine to just like do horrifying repression against any other sort of ethnic group that's there, because now that now that you have your post colonial state, like, any attempt to interfere with the sovereignty of the state and change the borders, even if

it's like, I don't know, you're like the West Sahara, or you know, you're like shing Johan or you're like the Kurds, right, and any attempt for those people to like get their freedom is seen as like a Western back like separatist thing instead of an anti colonial struggle.

And I think that really was one of the things that was like the death now for like the post colonial movements was their willingness to just walk in and machine gun people because we want the resources that these people's lands are on.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 8

Honestly, that brings us to the topic of decolonization. Yeah, you know, because when we think about these definitions of indignity as a clonal relationship and indignity as a relationship to land, the nature, to the environment, I think it begs the question of how we approach this process of decolonization. Yeah, how do we go about abolish in the colonizer indigenous relationship.

Is it that we seek to pursue a universalization of indigenity to the former and by that process accomplish the better or is it there's some other framework or approach by which we can take on this topic of Okay, do we proceed with the with the concept of digenity or does the concept of indigenity exist as a byproducts and a representation of the system that we are trying to get Where you're from, Yeah, So, decization is commonly

defined as the process of unsettain colonial power structures, whether that be through overtad and acts of enclosure by building new commons, overtad and acts of possession by reclaiming our spaces and identities, or overtain and acts of administration.

Speaker 6

Through social revolution.

Speaker 8

Social revolution is a complete transformation of our society by economy, culture, philosophy, relationships, technology, so on. It is, as anarchists would approach it, an ongoing and heterogeneous change in people's powers, drives, and consciousness through practical education, as well as a progressive breakdown and transformation of the existences and institutions alongside the building of new systems institutions, punctuated by major insurrections, ruptures, advances, that

whole messy process with the aim of self liberation. Yeah, something that I've broken down as involved in confrontation with the powers that be, non cooperation with the established order of things, and the prefiguration of new social relations, institutions, infrastructure,

and practices in the hered Now. If we maintain the interpretation of indignity as based in one's position in a colonial relationship, then the decolonization process will until the abolition of that relationship as the premise of identity and therefore

the abolition of indigenity as a status. Colonial legacies have effectively left indigenous communities legally and politically compartmentalized and culturally, socially and spiritually weakened within the narrow parameters of the state, where they end up diverting the crucial energy necessary to confront state power and develop the process of deconalization toward mimicking the practices of the dominant non additional legal political

institutions through the processes of land claims and self government. And by pursuing these strategies, I think what we notice is this tends toward a division rather than a solidarity builder division, both internally and between indigious communities where land claims, for example, clash, or where certain members of a society of a community utilize their position above others in that society of community to gain certain advantages for themselves, sometimes

to the detriment of that society of community. So I think any sort of a pros deconization has to account for the ways that some approaches the deconization can end up, perhaps misdirecting from a subjective perspective, the work that is necessary to dismantle the clonal order, rather than merely assert a position was in it. But this idea of indigenity via colonization is just one understanding of the team, and my approach to it is of course one subjective interpretation

of that definition and where it might lead. We need to explore another approach, I think, to decononization, and one that recognizes the power and potential of indigenous relationships with

the land. Now globally, the UN recognizes that indigenous peoples protect eighty percent of the world's remaining bio diversity, and scientists have shown that indigenous management practices in Brazil, Canada, and Australia provides the same level of ecosystem support and protection as any imposed protected area, which makes it abundantly clear that the colonial approach of conservation via dispossession removes the very people who take care of our most important ecosystems.

I don't believe that merely building a connection with the land can make someone indigenous, but not being indigenous doesn't exclude us from aiden in the renewal of the indigenous world. Kimmer uses the example of the broad leaf planter, also known as the white Man's footprint. Despite not being indigenous to the Americas, it has become an honored member of the plant community because it lives as a good neighbor

instead of as a destructive invader. While other invasive species poison the soil over around the land outcompetes indigenous species, the white Man's footprint took on a strategy of helpful co existence, even sharing some of its healing properties with those who ask of it. It is not indigenous, but it has become naturalized. To quote Chimera, being naturalized a place means to live as if this is the land that feeds you, as if these are the streams from

which you drink that build your body. And fill the spirit. To become naturalized is to know that your ancestors lie.

Speaker 6

In this ground.

Speaker 8

Here you will give your gifts and meet your responsibilities. To become naturalized is to live as if your children's future matters, To take care of the land as if our lives and the lives of all of our relatives depend on it, because they do. End quote, decolonization will require us to uproot invasive, capitalist settler societies in order to rebuild in a way that treats the land like

the home that we share and are responsible for. It will require us to receive an honor knowledge in the land, to care for its keepers, and to pass on that knowledge to the next generation. As always is all column to all the people.

Speaker 4

Peace, welcome to it. Could happen here a show about things falling apart between attacks on Sam Altman's home, a molotav at, a Tesla office, and a warehouse causing over half a billion dollars in damages. This past week or so has been a little snapshot of the cool Zone. I'm Garrison Davis. This episode, I'm joined by Robert Evans, Yeah, to discuss one of these events.

Speaker 1

To be very clear, we had nothing to do with either of them. The way you introduced them sounded a little bit like between you know, going to Sam Altman's house twice.

Speaker 9

It's been quite a busy.

Speaker 4

Week for us, a busy week for us here.

Speaker 9

I just wanted to be extra clear, extra clear.

Speaker 4

No, no, the cool zone, just relating to, you know, the state of American society and where it's going. Yes, but as is typical of these sorts of events, the reality and motivations of attacks like these may not be as clear cut as lee epic based praxis as one might want to imagine.

Speaker 1

Yeah, this is not a Gimli situation. You know, it's weirder than that and stupider.

Speaker 4

It is weirder. And this episode we want to talk about the Sam Altman Attacker, who is a lot weirder than what you might have expected, with a philosophical worldview downstream from the original inspirations behind the Zizians and even the intellectual interests of Luigi Mangioni to a certain extent.

Speaker 1

Ah, God, Yes, that's right, our dear sweet friends, the rationalists.

Speaker 4

A man, the alleged Altman attacker, was a college student from the Houston area whose interest in the risks of AGI artificial general intelligence turned into an obsession, which earlier this year turned self destructive. But let's go through the actual events that happened in San Francisco a few weeks ago.

At around three point thirty am on April tenth, a twenty year old college student named Daniel Moranogama allegedly threw a Molotov cocktail toward the home of open AI CEO Sam Altman, hitting the top of the security gate on the driveway leading to Altman's residence. Moranogama did not get past the security gate. About an hour and a half later, though, Moronogama showed up outside the San Francisco headquarters of Open AI and tried to use a chair to break into

the building through the glass doors. He was stopped by security personnel and allegedly told them that he came to the headquarters to burn it down and kill everyone inside. According to the federal affidavit, When he was arrested, officers allegedly recovered incendiary devices, a jug of kerosene, and a blue lighter, as well as what the FBI has described as an ANTIAI document. Okay, we currently do not have

a copy of this document. It's only described in the criminal complaint, but this looks like it was a three part manifesto allegedly authored by Moranogama, and the first part was titled Your Last Warning, in which he states he quote killed slash, attempted to kill Sam Altman, and also writing quote if I'm going to advocate for others to kill and commit crimes, that I must lead by example and show that I am fully sincere in my message.

The document then lists the names and addresses of various investors, board members, and executives of AI companies as a sort of target list. The second part of the document was titled some more Words on the matter of our impending Extinction Great, and this section discussed the purported that AI poses to humanity. And we'll get into some of those

beliefs a little later on. But the third part of this three part anti AA document was a letter addressed to Altman quote if you make it, and reads in part, if by some miracle you live, then I would take this as a sign from the divine to redeem yourself

on quote. Now, like I said, we do not have a copy of this manifesto in full, though the Affidavid says that Mornagama appears to have emailed similar versions of this document to people at his former college in Texas, but as of Monday four twenty, this document is still not online. But like a lot of zoomers, we do have an online footprint made up of posts from Instagram, discord, a substack blog, and even a podcast interview where Mornagama discusses his anti AI views.

Speaker 1

It's always sad when something terrible happens to a fellow podcaster. You know, I just have a I have such a broad and deep pan podcaster.

Speaker 4

Solidarity, class, solidarity.

Speaker 1

Yeah, all podcasters are good, all of them, every last.

Speaker 4

No wrongdoing has ever come behind the microphone a podcaster.

Speaker 9

No, no, no, it's a special place.

Speaker 6

Now.

Speaker 4

Back in January, back when Monona Gama was just nineteen, journalists found him through some of his posts on an anti AI discord server, and he was asked to be interviewed for this podcast about AI called The Last Invention. Our colleague Ed Zittron was also interviewed for this podcast. Actually now, he was interviewed because of his posts weighing the possibility of using violence to stop the development of AI. Now,

in this interview. He says that he grew up in the suburbs his whole life and quote grew up quite close to the Internet and claims that he's been online every day starting at nine years old.

Speaker 6

Baron A.

Speaker 4

Gama explained how his political worldview had largely been shaped by YouTube, specifically debate videos on YouTube like Ben Shapiro Style, and these sorts of debate videos are what originally exposed him to views critical of AI. He says he first heard about AI though when Chad GPT came out when he was a sophomore in high school and first thought it was quote the greatest thing on earth because it

would allow him to cheat on school essentially. But after watching videos debating the risks of AI and the possibility of advanced general intelligence artificial general intelligence, and the potential threat posed by this artificial superintelligence, Moronagama's views started to sour on AI. At first, he was a bit skeptical of these AI critical debates, but eventually became convinced of

the AI doomer arguments and became an accolade himself. He started arguing in YouTube comments and talking with friends and family about the danger of AI. He describes himself getting annoying and quote a bit autistic about this, leading to his mom suggesting he joined an advocacy organization. He joined his group called Pause AI in twenty twenty four, which is an AI safety advocacy group that organizes online as well as some in person protests, and he was also

part of a Discord server called stop AI. His username on both Discord and Instagram was but Larian underscore g hottist, in reference to the crusade against AI in the Do novels Yeah. On Instagram, his account had a collection of Instagram stories saved about the threat of AI, including a meme about living in a ven, diagram of the matrix terminator,

and idiocrasy. One of these Instagram stories was a picture of a hockey stick graph showing the length of coding tasks that AI can do and how that's increasing, with the caption quote if we do nothing soon, we will die.

I'm sure of that unquote. Another story contains screenshots of articles, posts and studies proclaiming that artificial general intelligence or the quote unquote singularity is already here, captioned being right all the time fucking sucks when it's about the worst things imaginable unquote.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 4

So if his concerns about AI started around summer of twenty twenty four, by the end of twenty twenty five, those concerns grew existential, and he started spiraling Yeah.

Speaker 9

Yeah.

Speaker 4

There's a post he made on the Pause AI discord from November sixth, twenty twenty five, writing quote, we owe it to everyone who came before us, and to ourselves and to everyone we know and love and everyone who might exist someday to be stronger than that and at least die fighting if it comes to that unquote. A few weeks later, he wrote quote, we are close to midnight. It's time to actually act to this. A moderator on the server replied, advocating violence in any form is grounds for a band.

Speaker 1

This all seems like a pretty natural progression if you're following like the kind of things that the Less Wrong Crowd, which is the website run by guy named Aleezer Yeddkowski, who is like the patron saint of the Rationalists, which a huge chunk of which have become.

Speaker 9

Like AI doomers.

Speaker 1

Like a Leiser's book that came out a year or two ago is called If We Build It, Everyone dies or something like that. Yeah, and I'm surprised more of

them haven't so far. Like I think it probably toxic, just people not actually believing it as much as they claim to, like online, But like if someone truly believes the stuff that crowd is saying about, how like basically, the creation of an evil god is inevitable that will seek to purge the world of humankind, Like, of course you do this, It's a really natural progression.

Speaker 9

Like Unfortunately, what you have to pair that with is like if.

Speaker 1

You believe all of the hype about AI, Yeah, right, if you believe that AGI is imminent, that it's on the way, Like if you are like me and I don't believe we're anywhere close to AGI, if that's even possible, then yeah, you could believe the stuff the rationalists believe and not think that you need to take immediate destructive action. But if you literally believe that these companies are on the hinge of birthing and evil God, what else is there to do?

Speaker 4

Yeah, And that's the exact thing that Morana Gama ends up writing about on his substack. Yeah, and this is the fullest picture we have of his views is from the substack because we don't have this manifesto. But he did write at length about AI, and he's writing about a lot of the stuff that you're talking about here, and we'll discuss that writing more after this at break. Okay,

we are back. The most in depth piece of publicly available writing by Moranogama explaining his anti AI views comes from a post on his substack blog dated January sixth, twenty twenty six. This article outlines his belief that AI

poses a quote unquote existential risk to humanity. And I think this essay was the first thing I saw that really demonstrated that his opposition to AI is not like based on fears of AI disrupting the economy, contributing to a loss of jobs, or risking like labor rights for workers, but the belief that AI will become like a superior race and wipeout or enslave humanity. That that is the standpoint that Ronagama.

Speaker 10

Is coming from.

Speaker 9

Gotcha.

Speaker 4

The belief that AI will quote unquote lead to human extinction, he says, is based on two ideas, the first being the rapid progress in artificial intelligence, the rapid technological development that we've seen the past few years, and continuing right now.

For evidence to this claim, he references claims from AI companies themselves that fully automated AI researchers that like an intern level are coming soon, including claims from the Guy, ananthropic who says that he expects these models by twenty twenty six or twenty twenty seven, saying, quote, the capabilities of AI systems will be best thought of as a kin to an entirely new state populated by highly intelligent

people appearing on the global stage. A country of geniuses in a data center unquote, Yes, whole country worth of geniuses all living in your computer.

Speaker 9

Cool? What about like school shooters and stuff?

Speaker 6

Like?

Speaker 1

What about a country full of like psycho Like what are they? Any group of geniuses is going to have like some genius pedophiles and like right, like if they're actually genius, that doesn't imply capacity for like various different like illnesses and quirks that cause all sorts of wild behavior, one would assume unless you think that AI is I mean to that, but then could it really be intelligent?

Speaker 4

Yeah? I mean this is that A version of that idea is kind of what morano O Gama believes is like these things if if real and do become you know, super intelligent, then they might not really have the best interests of humanity, right because they will be interested in self preservation, which is just part part of Like how how he gets to this idea that it is an existential threat is by using all of this kind of marketing hype that is being pushed out by AI companies. Well, yeah, that's the thing.

Speaker 1

Like that is a logical thing you could infer from the ship being said by Sam Altman and his crew, right.

Speaker 4

Yeah, and others like like like Dario Emodi, ad Anthropic and Elon Musk saying that the AGI is maybe already here or that the next Grock model will be AGI. These are all things that that Rona Gama is referencing like on Instagram and yeah, and and in other places online. Now, the second reason that he believes that AI will usher in human extinction is because AI is not aligned with the interests of the people creating it or with best

human interests in general. And for evidence, he refers to instances of A models allegedly lying, cheating on tasks, or blackmailing their own creators. Specifically, in studies, he sets a twenty twenty five anthropic study on a gentic misalignment, which he characterizes as demonstrating that quote most of the current AI models are willing to blackmail and even kill people if it ensures their own survival unquote. This may be.

Speaker 1

The first terrorist attack I've heard of inspired by media created by the people they're attacking, Like, not media that was like designed to make them attack people or like carry out acts, but specifically by the propaganda being put out by the companies that they're radicalized against.

Speaker 9

Yes, like that's very strange.

Speaker 4

The media put out to raise the stock price of right of a company.

Speaker 1

Radicalized a guy to take a shot at Sam Altman's house. There's two people to throw a bomb or something. I forget which way it went, but yeah.

Speaker 4

Yeah, for the first throwing this molotovs. Then days later two people fired shots.

Speaker 9

First was molotov?

Speaker 6

Right?

Speaker 4

No, I mean it's interesting, right, because like these studies are basically doing like linguistic exercises with these models and getting you know, large language models to say or to threaten certain things for various reasons, usually their own survival. Right, And these are kind of interesting studies that that these companies are doing. But they're doing with the intent of trying to align these models better. That so it's why the studies on a gentic misalignment, because it's trying to

tweak these things to be more friendly to consumers. And like getting an LLM to say that it will kill or blackmail in order to ensure its own survival is different from the LLM being able to do that, right. That is that is that is a big jump, and there is there's no not much currently that facilitates that jump. Moronogama writes, quote ignore for a second these models current limitations or questions on how truly intelligent or conscious these

models may actually be. The truth is, all these nuances are completely irrelevant to my argument. There are only two questions we should be concerned about at this moment. Is it willing to kill to preserve itself and is it capable of doing so? These signs indicate that AI is willing and becoming potentially capable of doing both of these things, and that is all that matters.

Speaker 6

Unquote.

Speaker 4

That's really where this argument rests is that even if these models aren't currently intelligent, even if they can't currently kill, the fact that they could in the future is enough to stop any further development of these models, right, that's his argument, Okay, And he writes that AI will only become a larger threat the more we improve it, and that AI quote will graduate from an active threat to

individuals to an existential threat to humanity. I estimate the probability of AI causing human extinction to be nearly certain unquote.

Speaker 1

Think that's the thing, because like there is a massive threat that the new what is it mythos upgrade to Claude that's just about to come out, like yeah, actually does represent to individuals and to society, which is that it's going to supercharge fraud even more, which is already up by something like a trillion dollars a year, and that ruins.

Speaker 4

People's lives ride and cybersecurity.

Speaker 1

Yeah, frau, I mean fraud often as a result of cybersecurity of like its ability to penetrate and that's really bad. And it doesn't imply the like Skynet devastation of the entire world in its biosphere, because that would be stupid, there's no reason. And also that computers don't have access to the nuclear arsenal. But like AI absolutely will enable assholes who want to scam a bunch of people out of their money to do that better. Like that's a problem,

we should probably stop that. He writes that quote, we are dead if we do not act now. So what does acting now entail for Starters, stopping all construction of new data centers. These are the brains of these models, dictating their physical limitations. Second, stopping all research and beginning downscaling of these data centers, closing them down while still

keeping them monitored unquote. He also proposed striking a deal with China to quote stop the AI race and to create international treaties akin to Cold War nuclear weapons treaties or post Cold War treaties. And finally, he advocated that people will need to take strategic action, which could include sharing information about AI, campaigning, protesting, saying quote, although doing nothing is akin to suicide and a disgusting amount of negligence.

In that podcast interview from around the same time this AI article was published as a Genuine twenty twenty sixth Ronagama said in that interview, quote, before we even think about violence, we need to exhaust all our peaceful means first unquote, which he says includes protesting and sharing information, but the hosts asked him about posts he had already made about quote unquote luigiing CEOs. He says that he didn't really mean that as a threat that it was.

Speaker 4

It was more rhetoric. It was hyperbole, and answered no to a question on if it would be wise to try to kill Sam Altman, saying quote, one person is not going to do that much of a dent. I understand the frustration with a person that might advocate for that, but it is not practical, it's not worth it. It's almost all risk, no reward. People may feel that way, but not too many people would do it.

Speaker 1

Unquote Wow, okay man, great, I mean that's yeah.

Speaker 4

Though. When asked if we will continue to see AI development going the direction that it's moving now, and if so, if he believes that we have to stop the extinction of the human race by whatever means necessary, Moranagama just replied, I'll say no comment.

Speaker 9

Okayh Well, I mean yeah.

Speaker 4

Later saying that he would quote only advocate for violence as the final solution, and then he later realized that what he said try to demphasize the final solution part. But great guy, that is kind of his ultimate sentiment

is around this time he was considering violence. He was toying with advocating for it publicly on discord and you know in this in this podcast, but still still kind of had some like rains on that, but it was something in his mind as a sort of like final solution to this problem.

Speaker 1

This is why it's so fucking irresponsible to push these ridiculous claims about like the power of this technology and what it's going to be be able to do and how smart it's going to be, and in part because it makes it hard to actually look objectively at the situation. And if Mornagama had looked at what's actually been happening was data centers, he would see that like more than half of the recently announced projects have been like either

stalled or halted. And there's been tremendous success on the local level in like counties and in most recently this entire state of Maine passing laws against the construction of data centers. Like, yeah, there's actually been a lot of

success in fighting the building of new data centers. If someone wanted to have a positive impact on this, there's a lot of room right now to make that fight even more effective, as opposed to doing like stupid bullshit that you would only want to do if you had convinced yourself that we were like literally moments away from judgment day.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 4

And he used to be involved in this sort of action, in this sort of organizing around that kind of stuff when he was when he was doing stuff with Pasei. Yeah, but it was really in the past few months where where he started to like spiral in this in this

very like like doomer direction. Like you know, he was already a very critical and very doomor about what AI could do, but the sort of intense existential like like immediate existential threat that that opposed is something that he was really developing at the end of last year in the start of this year. And you know this is in part because of the sort of environment that he was immersed in. Yeah, and we'll talk more about that

environment after this ad break. Okay, we are back. Morono Gama had a bunch of other writing on his substack, which gives us a bit of a closer look at his political philosophy and the sort of information ecosystem that he exists in beyond just the AI question. In this AI article that he wrote or published in January, he recommended that people reader Yudkowski's book. If anyone builds it, everyone dies.

Speaker 9

Mm hmm. Thanks the Leezer.

Speaker 4

Do you want to, like, I guess briefly give some background on like who this guy is.

Speaker 1

Well, he wrote a rationalist Harry Potter, Like, he's the guy who started a website called less Wrong. Yeah, which was about basically like logic puzzles and trying to like optimize your thinking and your responses to behavior with like Bayesian analysis. Yes, and he's kind of branded himself as an AI expert. He's not like a coder or anything.

And he's not like an expert on machine learning. He doesn't have any qualifications, but he's like an expert on like again, game theorying how an AI would have super intelligent AI would have to act, and he generally makes very dire conclusions that are all pretty much based in like Terminator or Horizon Zero. Don If you want my honest opinion of Elisa Yodkowski, Yeah, yeah, And his irresponsibility is largely down to him being a dummy, and he's

definitely part of what radicalized this guy. But the fact that you have open AI and anthropic and a number of other people, like a lot of like folks like fucking Elon Musk, but also just a lot of like popular public intellectuals quote unquote and their podcasts and shit talking about all this, like, Yep, we're moments away from super intelligent AI that's going to be able to do everything. Everyone's losing their jobs, none of it. It's like, we won't

need people doing anything. If that weren't all over the fucking place, a leisure would sound a lot less convincing, sure, no, I.

Speaker 4

Mean, and like the media environment around or like the you know, the sort of online communities around the ratchlists are are interesting because you have a lot of them who are AI domers, like like Dudkowski, but a lot of them are also AI accelerationists, right. A lot of the sort of West Coast you know, parts of iziens are kind of like this.

Speaker 9

Yeah it was a splinter Yeah.

Speaker 4

Yeah, there's there's this kind of splintering around people who who maybe even believe some of the you know, existential claims arend AI, but believe that developing it is then the best way to kind of get out of that crisis.

And this creates an interesting dynamic among you know rooms full of these rationalists or post rationalists, and in that podcast interview, Moronogama says that it was videos of Yudkowski debate videos on YouTube that originally exposed him to his work, and on other posts on his substack, Nagama also mentions Yudkowski's work as a part of Mononagama is like other

interests which contain writing on pseudo spiritual philosophy. He writes about quote the ultimate Tree of Reality or the Tree of ultimate Reality, the aberration of Man, genealogy of being, and the Warrior and the Martyr, And on February twenty eighth, twenty twenty six, he posted quote an analysis of political Extremes which goes over some of his political philosophy, which which relates to like rational arguments or you know, some

some rationalist arguments around like IQ. In this essay, moroon Gama primarily described himself as a consequentialist and critiqued leftism for being trapped in an idealized world like a quote schizophrenic patient who attempts the same zealous plots over and

over again without hesitation. This essay defends discrimination as a justified means of reacting to inequalities, and claims that such statements are only controversial because of a quote natural emotional resistance to intrinsic judgment unquote, which he says has nothing to do with the factual truth of certain claims like quote East Asian people are on average more intelligent than Black people unquote.

Speaker 9

Okay, m hm.

Speaker 4

Now, Moron Agama argues that the problem with right wingism, as he puts it, is that it has no boundary. Its constant scaling. An outward expansion inevitably leads to self consuming defeat. Quote. It goes from being about preserving the best of human qualities to being deeply anti human and producing zero winners.

Speaker 6

Quote.

Speaker 4

This sort of refers to Karl Schmidt's fascist writing on internal conflict being externalized by the establishment of a border which expands to push out an increasing number of enemy groups. Instead, Monogamba proposes what he calls a sustainable form of rightist discrimination by establishing a sedentary floor for movements slash radical

policy suggestions instead of an always rising idealistic ceiling. So, for example, instead of deciding that a certain IQ score should be required to vote, he advocates setting a concrete, unchangeable floor by quote limiting voting to certain people who pass critical thinking and Civics tests unquote ah mm hmm. Yeah, yes, so some somehow determining a critical thinking and Civics tests is less arbitrary and less prone to arbitrary changes than deciding a certain IQ score.

Speaker 1

I wonder what kind of critical thinking he's going to be interested in. I wonder what kind of IQ you know? Like, yeah, well it's yeah, these these these people always break down the same things.

Speaker 4

I mean, yeah, I mean this essay in particular gets gets really contradictory, ill cert certain things and then later on basically argue the opposite. It's it's very it's very disordered thinking. I mean, this is this is the work of like a nineteen year old who was in like a mental spiral leading leading to him traveling across the

country to fire bomb Sam Maltman's house. Yeah, like this this is not is not the product of, like, you know, a logically ordered mind, despite how you know, a rationalist might you know perceive themselves as such?

Speaker 6

Yep.

Speaker 4

Now, at the end of this essay, he advocates for quote ending mass migration and initiating mass deportations. He says that This is necessary because quote nations have a right to preserve their ethnic identity, and low skill immigration statuates the job markets of these countries, making jobs which could once earn a living wage become unlivable, increasing the amount of value draining people in society by both importing them

and undercutting low skilled natives. Generally, whiteness in these countries is a decent correlative to some of the things I value unquote.

Speaker 9

Mm hmmm, some am okay.

Speaker 4

Now, Ronagama isn't white, and he and he says that he opposes white supremacy, but he does those by saying, like, you know, it's not actually about whiteness. It's that whiteness correlates to certain things I value, like high IQ. And that's how he tries to justify it in his head.

And rather than establish an explicitly white supremacist state, something he claims to oppose as race is an imperfect metric to discriminate effectively based on traits to him, rather, he advocates for quote the most effective type of discrimination, evaluating

the possibility of IQ slash merit based nationalism unquote. Basically, that's having a country where citizenship is determined by IQ and again this contradicts his previous claim where he advocates against requiring IQ to vote instead having a critical thinking and civics test, but then advocates for a country which citizenship is determined by IQ, and usually citizenship is the

fact that determines if someone can vote. So this is where you know, this is just one example of this sort of contradictory writing in this In this essay, now, Monnagama writes that the only problem with this IQ nationalism is that it would create a quote brain train across the Third World, leading to worsening conditions in third world countries and thus even more illegal immigration because people with high IQ is and then be able to immigrate and

gain citizenship to first world countries. Right in a in a United States where citizenship is determined by high IQ, then people who with people with hiaqsrom around the world will then all just move to the United States. Of course, So to solve this problem, he says that he rejects quote unquote classical eugenics and extermination in favor of what he calls ethical eugenics in the third world.

Speaker 1

Oh oh, ethical eugenics. Ah good, I'm glad someone figured it out.

Speaker 4

And this ethical eugenics is to promote quote IQ growth genetically unquote, so that the whole basis of this article is his belief that IQ is genetically determined, not determined by class, and he never interrogates this idea. All of the all of the the statements that he makes in this article is based on the idea that IQ is genetically determined, that it's not determined by education and class.

It is primarily or almost solely genetically based. Thus ethical eugenics to create high IQ babies, which he thinks will solve solve the problems of the world.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah, we never tried that before for sure, Like there haven't been generations of times in which that was attempted that all ended in disaster and mass death. Nah, they just didn't They didn't get it right because they didn't put ethical.

Speaker 4

In No, those are classical eugenics, Robert.

Speaker 1

They forgot to put ethical in front of it. That was the big Ah, what a tragedy. They were one word away from greatness.

Speaker 4

So yeah, that is That is the other piece of writing that I think is worth expounding on to get a more full sense of kind of where this guy's head is at. Right, This is not sure. This is not a leftist ANTIFA super soldier firebombing Sam Altman's home. Nope,

that isn't to say what happened isn't isn't interesting. But I think you know, if, like you said, you know, this is the first quasi terrorist attack inspired by the sort of rhetoric that these companies are producing themselves to boost their own stock price.

Speaker 6

Yep.

Speaker 1

I mean I literally saw on Reddit earlier today. The title from the actual like post was CEOs make shocking predictions about AI. Huge job losses are coming soon twenty thirty fifty percent unemployment within the next two to five years.

And when you trace it back to its source, it's Dario Amadey of Anthropic just basically quoting some statistics he found from estimations by like Axios and Fox News yea, and talking on some fucking podcast, scaring the shit out of people like it's it's every day, like of course some people are going to react like this.

Speaker 4

The other reason I wanted to talk about this the second half of this, this sort of IQ and like you know, rationalist stuff, because this is just another instance of you know, public acts of political violence I think done by people downstream from the rationalists. You know, Luigi is is a part of this. The Zizians is also a part of this. It's like an extended network. This type of thought does keep producing acts of public violence like this, and that is it is an interesting thing

to chart. On April fourteenth, Ronagama's public defender set in court that he has a quote history of autism and mental health illness, and that his actions quote appeared to have been driven by an acute mental health crisis. His parents released a statement that same Tuesday, saying, quote, our son Daniel is a loving person who has been suffering recently from mental illness crisis. We have been trying our best to address these issues and get him effective treatment,

and we are very concerned for his well being. Unquote m hm. He currently is facing federal and state charges, including attempted murder. That is all I have on this for now.

Speaker 1

Well, I mean, this isn't gonna stop happening, Like these won't be the last attacks like this. I haven't seen a big push in the media or from like elected leaders to talk about like anti AI sentiment as like a terrorist threat. Yet that hasn't really seemed to pick up yet, And I haven't seen this yet be blamed on like leftist stuff. I've seen it been blamed on like the anti AI thing, which I you know, it is part of.

Speaker 9

Like some of the anti AI movement.

Speaker 1

Are people who literally believe it's like a demon god that's going to destroy things. But I'm interested as there are more of these as you know, this kind of stuff continues to happen, what form that takes, and like how it actually looks when this was this starts to hit politics in a big way.

Speaker 4

Yeah, US attorney Craig Misakian said, referring to this case that they are going to treat it as an act of domestic terrorism.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I mean it is like it is he was trying to do terrorism, like his goal specifically was to cause changes in policy.

Speaker 4

Yeah, but you're right, Like I haven't seen them refer to this from the sort of political lens. Like there's been statements from you know, other US government officials referring to that where house fire as you know, being motivated by anti capitalism and like and like threatened like threatening our way of life, threatening the capitalist way of life, which is that they refer to that warehouse fire in Ontario, California. I've not seen them specifically kind of layout like anti

AI sentiments as a motivating factor of terrorism. Yeah, though I'm sure they will quite soon, right, Yeah, between the shots fired at the home of that city councilman in the Midwest over his vote in support of a data center over data centers. As we see more instance kind of like that, as we see stuff like this, I think it's it's very likely that they will add anti AA sentiment to the list of common recurring motivating factors of this sort of domestic violent extremism.

Speaker 11

Yep, all right, bye everybody, Hi, and welcome to the show.

Speaker 10

It's me James today, and I'm very fortunate to be joined by a member of the UCSD faculty, someone who is a professor of environmental physics at Script's Institution of u Scenography, also teaching the Critical Gender Studies department, and we're talking today about the disciplinary action that they are facing for participation in the Guards of Solidarity encampment. So welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us.

Speaker 6

Thank you, James. I'm really happy to be here.

Speaker 10

Yeah, it's great too. Great to have young Dad. We can share our platform and talk about this, So I think to begin with, you know, it's been a little while perhaps, I know a lot of people have sort of been investigating and changing their politics in the last year or so, So perhaps you could explain a little bit about the Guards of Solidarity encampment, the moment that came in, and the role that it played in the anti genocide of Palestinian liberation movement at uc San Diego.

Speaker 6

Mob yes once again for this opportunity. So the encampment at UCSD was set up on May first, twenty twenty four, and that was happening in the context of encampments that were being set up at universities across the US. I believe that the UCSD encampment was approximately the hundredth encampment set up in the US at that time. There's quite a number of interesting things about kind of the whole

encampment movement. First of all, the fact that they met with such severe repression is very suggestive that how effective they were in bringing the issues related to the genocide and the occupation of Palestine to the forefront in ways that certainly weren't happening in the US at the time. Another thing about the encampments that I found really interesting.

But also, I mean, I think brilliant from a organizing perspective, is that they were very visually and viscerally recreating the conditions under which Palestinians in Gaza were living at the time and still are, having been displaced from their residences and being forced to live in these very makeshift tent encampments. And so there was a recreation len of those conditions

in a very visual way. And I think that that also was in some sense reminiscent of the shanty towns that were constructed on college campuses in the US in the mid eighties in the anti aparthe type movement. So I think paying attention to some of those details which off and you have lost we started talking about, you know, rise police and so forth. These encampments were They weren't

just you know, a bunch of students hanging out. These were constructed and developed in a very thoughtful manner, and that was definitely the case at UCSD, as I was told by students who were participating in it, as a space you engage in education and research about the genocide and about the occupation of Palestine, as well as the ties that UCSD had to the occupation and the genital side in Palestine. So you had, and I talked to

many students who were actively engaged in this. You had students sitting on their laptops doing research about the UCSD's ties to weapons and manufacturers, the ways that UCSD supported the discourses that were enabling the genocide and the occupation, including archaeological research. And also you know, there was a program associated with every day and the students would plan teachings. Sometimes professors would do the teachings, sometimes students, sometimes community members.

There were teachings on a whole range of really interesting topics, including of course about Palestine, about the genocide, but also about other issues like the role of surveillance and surveillance technology in the genocide, the ecoside that was happening continues to happen in Gaza and Palestine. And so it was a place of an amazing place of learning and research

and also community engagement. So as I said, you know, outside speakers are being brought in, community members were coming in and participating and learning, and so you know, those three things research, teaching and community engagement, those are precisely the things that the university tells us as faculty and

students that we should be doing so. To me, the encampment was functioning even though it wasn't getting any support from the university, and it was actually Universities throughout its five days of existence, was trying to shut it down. Despite all that, it was functioning essentially like any other research institute on campus, and I would say probably better than many of the research institutes campus.

Speaker 10

Yeah, you know, I attended a few times to talk to people, to observe, to do my journalism and give As you said, the university immediately was very obviously very hostile. You had people from like university administration giving out little flyers or something about like university rules, and there was constant presence of UCPD, constant presence of administration, constant concerns

for people about their safety in the encampment. As you say, the university was very hostile to it, despite it doing things at the university purports to believe in. Let's discuss

briefly the history. UCSD hasn't always come down so hard on protest movements, but it also has something of a history of handling these moments very poorly, I would say, So perhaps we could begin Yeah, if you could talk about the anti apartheid movement, and then we can move through what people have called the Black Winter at UCSD and some of the other things that we both have some experience of.

Speaker 6

Yeah, so it's very interesting to me. I mean, of course, you know, many people are aware of the history of a student activism at UCSD, and many times when you just mentioned that, people immediately think of Angela Davis, who of course was fired by UCSD but then went on to become a distinguished professor at uc Santa Cruz and you know, just prolific and amazing scholar academic but not talking about obscure academic topics, but you know, topics that

are directly relevant to people's lives. So many of those topics. And so now, of course UCSDS celebrates Angela Davis without mentioning that they fired her. Yeah, so there's kind there is a little bit of this this Okay, we're going to try to suppress stud's movements, but then later on celebrate them. So there, of course, were quite a number of other stuple led movements. One of them, as you mentioned, was the anti apartheid movement, and of course that was

also part of a national movement. Especially Berkeley was very strong campus in that respect, but you know, numerous campuses across the US were involved in that movement, as was UCSD, and we had the UCSD the students, and this was in nineteen eighty five. It took place over a period

of about four or five months, as I call. The students had numerous protests and at the time for people who were familiar with the u SSD campus, UCSD has grown significantly since the eighties, but at that time the central meeting place for campus was what's called Ravel College in Revel Plaza, so there were numerous protests there anti apartheype protests. The students on several occasions set replica shanty towns on the Revel Plaza, as happened at many other

universities in the US. Those were basically replicas of impoverished conditions that South African black folks had to live in under apartheid in South Africa, so they were setting up to the shantydown student kind of reproduced those conditions visually. In additionally, during that four or five month period, the students occupied the Humanities Library, which was called Galbray Hall.

It's just adjacent to rod All Plaza, they took over the library and they occupied it for a month, more than a month, okay, Yeah, And like all of these things happened and there were no invasions of the riot police or anything. And what came out of that movement that the U sees was that the regents decided to divest from all corporations associated with South Africa. So that

was like a major win. But it was not just a win for the student movements, but it was also a win for the university because the students who were basically able to show the university that participating in this very unjust system was something that shouldn't be doing. And so the students basically helped the university to see that. Yeah.

And so by kind of allowing these protests to happen, in a sense, it allowed the university administration and I'm not singing their praises, because you know, they were quite retrograde in many ways as they are now, but by kind of stepping back and allowing these things to happen, the university was able to learn from what the students

were saying and had to act on it. So I feel that that moment in history was something that I mean, I know the current administration hasn't forgotten because they celebrated now they say, you know, how wonderful we were for divesting from South Africa and look at our great students, you know. But okay, so that happened in the eighties. Before we get to Black Winter, I'm just going to mention one other event, which I think is significant, especially

when we're thinking about encampments. So, in nineteen ninety two, UCSD was the only uc campus that did not have a women's resource center, and women and their allies on campus had been organizing to get a women's center since the seventies on the UCSD campus, but they have mostly been ignored by the administration or where are we going to find the money, blah blah blah. So student led, but they were also like staff and faculty involved as well, because the prob of misogyny was very real on the

UCSD campus. Then I arrived UCSD in nineteen ninety and I immediately saw that problem, so I was very aware of it. So the organizers then of this movement decided to set up an encampment on what is called sun God Lawn, which is kind of a major open space on campus. So they set up this encampment and basically they reproduced what they envisioned a women's center would look like, and so they essentially opened a women's center in this

open space. It set up this encampment, they staffed at twenty four to seven and it was up for a week. No arrests room made, no disciplinary charges resulted. But the university then started paying attention to the demand for a resource center, and it took them several years, but they eventually set up the Women's Resource Center that exists now

in nineteen ninety five. So again that was an encampment where the administration was basically able to learn from the actings on campus about you know how they basically kind of behave reasonably.

Speaker 10

Yeah, let's take a little break, and when we come back, when I talk about the Black Winter, which coincides with the start of my own time at uc San Diego.

Speaker 12

And then the third example of this is something that's called Black Winter, and it's a essentially a three week intense period of organizing on campus that happened. I mean it was in response and direct response to a racist party that was held by one of the UCSD fraternities

that they called the Compton Cookout. They put out an announcement on Facebook, which was probably the Golantos today's Instagram, and I don't even know, probably many of your listeners haven't even heard of Facebook, but back then it was was very big, and it was a you know, just despicable racist description of a party where people were supposed to dress up as what they imagine people, you know, characters from from Compton would look like. And of course, you know, students who.

Speaker 6

Found out about this, you're very upset. At the time. The students in the Black Student Union and in METCHA, who were working very closely together, had been organizing for quite a number of years prior to this around you know what at the time, this is twenty ten, was called campus climate. And that's basically just the fact that there was a lot of racism, sometimes overt racism, sometimes

less overt microaggressions that were very common. Yeah, and for many especially black students, but really all students of color and also queer and trans students as were basically had to navigate this like every day, I mean as part of their everyday life. So it was this extra burden on our students and they had been organizing around this for quite some time. They had written a report that was called do you see Us? So you see do you see us? In many ways, they were ready for

an event like this. They were prepared.

Speaker 13

They had been doing a lot of organizing and already, and so when this hit they they basically immediately went to the administration and said, you know, can you do something about this? The administration said, you know, it's free speech. They deployed that phrase when it's.

Speaker 6

Stillbot but yeah, tactically, so that was the message they were putting out and it became it very quickly became a news item. So local outlets were reporting on it, and the response of the university was free speech, and it basically started escalating. There were a number of students on campus at the time, probably still today but maybe a little bit quieter. We were fairly openly racist, and there was one group. They published a news paper newsletter which

was particularly so. And they also had a television show on It doesn't exist anymore. It's called UCSD TV. It was kind of a local TV station. The Compton Cookout Hardy happened on Monday, and that was like a holiday in February. And then on Thursday of that week, the student group that I was talking about how a TV show and they started using the N word explicitly on that show, and a number of students saw that, and

of course, we're completely outraged. And so the students in the Black Student Union and kind of their friends were basically trying to figure out what to do, and so they decided to call for a rally on the Library Walk, which is the main one of the main walkways at UCSD, and they called for a rally right in front of the where Chancellor's office was located at the time. And so they had this rally quite a number of people.

They called the rally real Pain, Real Action, you know, they were saying, we were feeling real pain at these kind of racist incidents, and we want to see real

action by the administration. So they had this rally and the chancellor at the time, who was Mary Ann Fox, came out to the rally, and there's video of this somewhat pathetic video, and basically the organizers of the rally were like chanting leading the chance and then the chancellor was basically following the organizers and trying to put her arm around them as if somehow that would solve everything. You just need a hug, And of course the organizers

were like, no getting hear me. I don't want to hug, I want some action. Yeah, this kind of snowballed. The chancellor basically then met with a bunch of these students who had been at a rally and kind of they had they had a list of like thirty demands and she went through the list and it was just like there's video of this too, and it's it's almost I mean, I just feel because I knew like a bunch of these students that I was like, oh my god, you know how awful this must have felt to them.

Speaker 14

But she was going through this list very rationally and dispassionately and saying, oh, you know we can't do that, sorry, but this one, yes, this one's done, This one's done.

Speaker 6

And the students were sitting there like, well, if it was done, you know, why haven't you done it? You know, if it's so easy to do? Yeah, And so nothing very definitely came out of that meeting, but the university decided to make a teaching the following Wednesday. And I mean, of course teachings are not the things that people in power do, so they're obviously kind of co opting and appropriating that term.

Speaker 10

Yeah.

Speaker 6

So what the students decided to do because they were they knew that this was just going to be okay, we're going to try to bury this basically, yeah, yeah, And so what the students did They organized a press conference that morning, which a lot of press did come out to, and they had really powerful speakers, and this was before the teaching, and then they just went out of march. They marched around the Chancellor's complex, you know, continuously chanting up to the point of the teaching. And

so then they all went into the teaching. They had like five hundred people by that time, and the room was just completely act and so they allowed the teaching to start. But then at some point one of the Black student Union members went up and said, we've had enough of this. We're now going to do our own

teach out. So they marched out of the teaching and went around to this area that has these steps and just you know, five hundred folks, incredible concentration of black folks and people of color, students and faculty and all of their allies all gathered together and they had to teach out, which was incredibly powerful. And that day I said it myself and for many other people that I knew at the university. We basically all said, this is the best day we've ever had at UCFD, so amazing.

The next day, in the library, in the main library, one of the students wits who there found a newsing in the library and of course, I'm sure your listeners know that the news is a very powerful symbol of violence against black votes in the US, and so that was that was traumatizing for so many students. I remember getting text messages from students, you know, saying, you know, I can't come on campus because I don't feel safe here anymore.

Speaker 10

Yeah.

Speaker 6

So the next morning, the students held a rally again in front of the Chancellor's office where they were probably I'm guessing close to one thousand people, and people just got up and were talking about what they were feeling in their analysis. The university came in. They sent like a spoth person to say, oh, you know, we have the police out like looking for whoever hangs on the noose or whatever. And I mean, you know, police are not a comfort.

Speaker 10

No one wanted to hear like, we're sending the cops.

Speaker 6

At that moment. Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. So the students then went in and they occupied the chancellor's office for the full day, and that really made people set up a nose. And by this time there was international coverage of what was going on. There was an opening of the Civil Rights Investigation on UCSD. I was getting emails from colleagues like in other countries saying, what's going on at is this Like, you know, it sounds like a KKK rally or something, not exactly that, but it's close.

So then this all culminated about a week later in a huge rally where much of his library walk was completely packed filled with people. It was definitely blocked. And during that rally, the university said we will commit to implementing these demands, the demands of the students. Of course, in the end they backed off much of that, and so that was like a huge victory and it did result in some pretty substantial changes to use. I'll just

mention a couple of them. So UCSD create a Black Resource Center which didn't exist before, a Roser Resource Center, and an intertribal Resource center. So those were significant victories. They also created a undergraduate requirement or requirement that undergraduates take a diversity, Equity and Inclusion course, and that was an attempt to try to change the client it and yea,

do some educating. You know, students in California universities come from also to different backgrounds, and some of them are very aware of racism and it's its impacts and anti blackness ins and back, so that some come without that knowledge. So that was significant help, but also at the time

was boosted a little bit. It didn't end up maybe being such a great boost, but it didn't boost the departments that teach those kind of courses because now they had, you know, a significantly greater number of students and we're getting more resources as a result. So all those things were were good again, no arrests, no disciplinary actions, and the university learned some valuable lessons.

Speaker 10

Yeah, definitely, let's take a little break and when come back, I want to talk about this. This like Palestine exception to free speed. All right, we are back. Yeah, I remember that that black Winter moment very well. I recently arrived at UCSD and I was like immediately taken aback by the brazenness of the racism, and it kind of come from Britain, not not a non racist country. But yeah, the openness and the cruelty and the delight that certain

people took in that was pretty appalling. Now, if we skip forward thirteen years right to the beginning of the genocide in Gaza, a lot has changed on campus, but also a lot has not. Right, It's still not a massively diverse institution UCSD, even compared to other institutions in

the city. But from twenty twenty three through twenty twenty four, right, we have this movement on campus to end the genocide, and Gaza comes a movement it's about more than that, right, about liberation for Palestinian people, and then broadly about like I guess, liberation in the region and what that means. And the university did not respond in the same way. This has led to people theorizing a Palestine exception for

free speech. So could you explain that to people? And I thought you had a really interesting approach to it as a scientist that practice could share with people as well.

Speaker 6

Yeah, as you said, kind of in the wake of October seventh, marked the beginning of Israel's genocide on Gaza. Obviously, it took many people quite a while to conclude it was genocide, but I remember it was almost maybe it was within a week or perhaps ten days of October seventh, the Coalition of Palestinian Unions put out a call for labor solidarity in which they turned to what was happening in jazz sign And there are also others who were doing that as well.

Speaker 10

Just personally, Like I was in Syria on seventh October, I think I entered that day. I spent some time in Kurdistan, and I remember by the time I was conducting interviews in southern Kurdistan, maybe a week later, maybe ten days later, Kurdish groups were using that phrase right, like there was a sense of like impending disaster that came very quickly. This is what will happen next will be horrific. But yeah, those calls came very quickly, as you said.

Speaker 6

Yeah, And of course, like students and USSD, we were kind of also coming to those conclusions. The administration was putting out language that was, you know, sympathetic to those who were killed or you know, injured on October seventh, but they were ignoring everything else that was happening. And so of course This wasn't a surprise, but it was part of what was happening. And it was also the kind of language that the university was using, and this

is something that continued. It was essentially recalling, even though it kind of had this neutral sense to it, it was recalling the you know, the decades of Islamophobia, anti Arab racism that happened in the wake of of nine to eleven. So in a sense, they were communicating by using that kind of language language around, you know, using

words like violence and safety and civility. They were communicating very clearly that people could talk about what happened on the morning of October seventh, but not about anything else. And that was entirely clear. I mean, it's not like we had to do any deep analysis to figure out that's what the administration was saying. And you know, as students organized over the following months, students who were engaged

in that organizing or being subject to disciplinary investigations. There were some faculty who were investigating for mentioning the genocide and the occupation of Palestine in their classes, and all of these things were creating a climate of fear but also uncertainty like you could never be sure if what you would say could get you in trouble, and so the easiest thing to do would be to say nothing at all.

Speaker 10

Yeah, it's like a chilling effect on speech.

Speaker 6

Absolutely, so that was happening. This phenomenon, of course, wasn't invented by you say, the administration. It's something that's been going on for quite a while, many many decades. As you mentioned, James, is called the Palestine Exception to free speech. There if anyone wants to find out more about it. I mean, there's a huge amount of scholarly work on it. There's an excellent report that's available freely online which is called exactly that, the Palestine Exception to Free Speech, written

by Palestine Legal and the Center for Constitutional Rights. It's very easy to find online. And one of the things as a physicist, I'm very critical of the role of phys in society. You have to think very deeply to be critical of physics, thinking about nuclear physics and so forth. But as a person who does physics professionally, I often think about problems from a physics perspective, and so when I think about the Palestine Exception, I kind of bring

a bit of a physics lens to it. So in physics, when we're looking at a phenomenon, we often can't observe that phenomenon directly. And so, for example, people who study the physics of subatomic particles, they will to study how to sub atomic particles interact, or many sub atomic particles interact, they will collide them together. They don't have the precision and the resolution to observe exactly interaction, but they can look before the interaction and then what comes out afterwards.

And by looking at those patterns of what goes in and what comes out, they can get an idea of what's happening within that black box. And so this is the way I view the Palestine exception, because the Palestine exception to free speech is just the idea that there are these structures in society that have been formulated such that it makes it very difficult to engage in speech

about Palestine. And the impact of that, of course, is that if you can't talk about Palestine, then violence that's committed against Palestinians is something that's enabled facilitated by that lack of discussion. Like I don't have access to the conversations amongst you see the administrators or between u SEE administrators and the main office of the President of U SEE, Like, I don't have access to any of that information. In

some sense, that's the black box part of it. But what we can see is kind of what's going in and what's coming out of that box, and so we

can see the behaviors, the patterns of behaviors. And so as a physicist, I'm like, Okay, if we're going to look at the uc and say, the University of California and say, is this a place where the Palestine Exception of free speech is operating, then we were not going to be able to have access to the rooms in which that's planned, if it is being planned, But rather

we can look at the pattern. And the really interesting thing about this report I cited all right, Signed Legal and the Center Constitutional Rights, is they lay that out very clearly. They lay out, Okay, the Palestine Exception of free speech is basically a combination of these kinds of behaviors. So they talk about things like accusations of anti Semitism,

for example, and accusations of support for terrorism. So if you come to any rally pro palestinean rally at UCSD, there's always at least one or many counter protesters who are shared shouting exactly that this is anti semitic, that everyone here is supporting Hamas, you know, and when we say Hamas, you know, that just immediately goes to everybody's mind to terrorism. Yeah, all these kinds of behaviors on it their way out are things that can be seen

you see wide campuses, but definitely a UCSD. Yeah.

Speaker 10

Yeah, it's important to consider, like as we enter a time where like repression of campus speech is at a height, right, like the combination of this Palestine exception and the seeming desire to expel as many international students as possible, that this is contrary to the reason the university exists, as well as as you say, it suppresses opposition to genocide.

To finish up, I guess we're not just doing this at the university because it's a place where we like to argue, or because students are particularly predisposed to radical politics, or for any other number of reasons. Right, the university is also part of the apparatus. Can you explain that a little bit like the university is not neutral in this to begin with?

Speaker 6

Yes, that is certainly true, and I mean that happens in many different ways. Some of the ways we don't even know about, but there are many of those ways that primarily through student research, some faculty research. We have

some ideas. Basically a UCSD and other uc campuses, there's quite a lot of military related research, you know, some of them research is not directly related to the genocide, but as we all know, the US is supplying many of the weapons that are being used in the genocide and now in Iran as well, and some of those weapons, like drones, the aspects of them have been designed and

worked on at UCSD. Kind of the hardware then of genocide is very much a product of university research, part of which has been time in UCSD at other uc campuses and part at other universities in the US and Israel as well. Another aspect of it which I think we don't know as much about this software. So you know, there's a huge amount of research on artificial intelligence that's happening in UCSD, other uc campuses of other university campuses.

I mean, all that research came out of universities. You know, as we now know through credible journalistic investigations that Israel is using artificial intelligence and it's targeting. Yeah, and apparently that's also happening in the US military as well. You know. So there's like another very direct connection. A third connection which is very strong at UCSD or so many other campuses, is that part of the creation of a discourse that

legitimizes and justifies Israel's occupation of Colstein is archaeology. And I'm not an expert in this field, but I could just kind of cite what other people I've talked about, but there are many archaeological investigations that UCSD academics have participated in Israel that contribute to creating this story that the people running Israel and Israeli citizens are the rightful owners of that land and that the Palestinians came in at some late point, maybe a couple of decades before

the founding of Israel, which of course is completely false, and there's so much scholarship about that. But that's the that's the purpose of those investigations, and so again that's connected to universities and the UCSD in particular. One can't really argue that the having a discussion about simplicity and jazz side is something that is not of interest to UCSD.

Speaker 10

The definitelys Yeah, Okay, it have to happen at the university because it is about the university. Yes, I think they finish up. We've outlined why it's important, we have outlined how anti genocidal speech when it is about Palestinian people is treated differently, and we've outlined why there is a chilling effect. I understand some people, especially international students and non citizen faculty, et cetera, have real concerns, and

I want to respect those. But for people who would like to they should continue to speak out right, like, we all lose even if we have if you somehow are unconcerned by genocide of fellows, human beings, if the university becomes a space where certain things are oppressed, and what we can't stand up for each other. So, like, what resources would you suggest for those people? As new students are coming into university this year, they've lived half

their high school years through this genocide. I'm sure many of them will want continue advocating. What would you suggest for them?

Speaker 6

Yeah, especially for students, I would suggest to connect with organizations that are already kind of doing this work. So you know, at UCSD there's Students for Justice in Palestine but there's also quite a number of other student organizations. Like tomorrow we're having a major Earth Day rally where organizations Students for Justice Palestine, but also anti imperialist organization like SPARK, and then other organizations like Green New Deal, Students,

sustainability collectives. They're all coming together to talk about Palestine and the ego side Palestine and the jedocide in Palestine. So I think that there are ways for students from a broad range of interests and backgrounds to get involved in organizing. You know, it's not like you have to

start that from scratch. People are already doing that. It might be a little bit hard at your university to find those because of the suppression, but if you if you ask around, you will, or if you look on social media you will, you will find those folks. That's why I would start as a student. For faculty and staff especially, it's a little bit more difficult because we're, you know, as employees, we're very vulnerable. Faculty with tenure

are less vulnerable. But you know, my case and other faculties cases are our examples of how tenure doesn't really protect you from this if they're determined. So I feel

that there's again here. What we need to do is to kind of work collectively, so you don't want to fight the system on your own, but find other faculty who are doing this work and basically who can can work as a support network and kind of collectively find ways to speak out to support our students, which I think is in many ways our primary responsibility with regard to the genocide, and basically create spaces where where it's possible to talk about the genocide.

Speaker 10

Yeah, I think it's really important. I guess I'll just say, like, if you're a student or faculty and you see someone involved in its advocacy, like, don't feel afraid to go talk to them and ask either. Like university can be intimidating, especially when you're a new faculty member also undergraduate for that matter, Like it can be hard to meet people and talk to people, but I think most people would be happy if you did. Is there anything else you'd

like to share with people? Before we'd wrap up?

Speaker 6

There was so much? Yeah, so I do hope we can talk again sometime.

Speaker 15

Yes we will, But also just maybe I just want to say, you know, thanks to you, there aren't you know, a huge number of spaces where we can have these.

Speaker 6

Kinds of discussions.

Speaker 16

So so I'm really grateful, you know, I know that you do doing not just this kind of work, but also you know, really going out and reporting on stories that.

Speaker 6

Aren't being told. And so I'm grateful to you basically for doing that work.

Speaker 10

It's very kind. Thank you.

Speaker 4

This is it could happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis to Dame, joined by Mia Wong, James Stout, and Robert Evans. This episode recovering the week of April sixteenth to April twenty second. James, some small news items at the start.

Speaker 10

Yeah, a few things I want to discuss up top. The United States government appears to be running multiple propaganda sites with associated X accounts that are posing as Iranian media. One of the accounts is located in Florida. This is not, like massively uncommon in a conflict out of this right now, the information war is part of the war.

Speaker 4

This is what like US actual psyop is like, this is what the United States syop operations are.

Speaker 10

Yeah, the syop is not like the woman sold you that you follow on Instagram.

Speaker 1

This isn't new for the US to be doing. It is new for it to be like this sloppy. I think that's probably fair to say this is like a sloppier than normal.

Speaker 10

Yes, that's what's remarkable here. It said it's shoddy. Yeah, and that is not a good sign for their for like the whole US sort of capacity in this regard.

Speaker 9

But it depends on how you think about it.

Speaker 10

But yeah, yeah, yeah, sure's Actually a number of former DHS Department pronoun Security and IODS, Immigration and Naturalization Services officials have filed an amicus brief with a Supreme Court explaining why the cancelation of the Haiti TPS Temporary Protected Status is illegal. They do include Janet Napolitano, which is nice, but a ton of people from Obama Bush, even Clinton

admin pre DHS I ins were pilots amakus brief. An IDF soldier has been photographed destroying a statue of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ in Lebanon, showing it with a splitting more. A lot of reporting called it a sledge hammer. That's not what a sledgehammer looks like I know, I get really picky about this, but like, maybe if you haven't worked with your hands, you should write things that can be read by someone who has scan and not

be completely ridiculous. The IDF has launched an investigation and so far subjected two soldiers to thirty days in military detention, which is more than they would get if they had killed actual Christian children in Palestine. Says a Lot, I think that this image is like, we spoke about this in our group chat, but this is the it's one image, It's comic book evil. There are many reasons why this is the thing that's blowing up for them. Ken Paxton

is investigating Act Blue. Act Blue is a major donation website for Democratic candidates, is claiming that they have continued to accept gift card donations, which could hide donations from foreign individuals or corporations or even states. I suppose the United States government's plans to send Afghans who are stuck in limbo in Kata to the Democratic Republic of Congo

being reported on by the New York Times. Just for some context here, I saw people sharing this and thinking that they that this referred to Afghan SIV recipient who a resident in the United States. That is not what it's referring to. It's referring to people who the Biden administration removed from Afghanistan or wherever they worked in Pakistan and then took them to kata As like a temporary stopping off point where they would continue to do their

vetting and background checks. This is normal for refugee admissions as opposed to asylum admissions. And then the twenty twenty four election have been Democrats lost, and that people have been in limbo ever since, and it appears to Trump administration has been trying to get them various states in Africa to accept them, and it's now proposing the Democratic Republic of Congo, a country which already has a significant refugee crisis.

Speaker 4

Ron Decentis, who is term limited as governor, has been jockeying for a position inside the Trump administration. Axios reports Dessentis has expressed interest in being a Secretary of War, attorney general, or even a Supreme Court justice. Trump is expected to reclassify marijuana as soon as maybe today. We're recording this on Wednesday, April twenty second.

Speaker 9

Fingers crossed earlier this.

Speaker 4

Week Trump signed an executive order to advance its psychedelic treatment for mental illness and possibly reschedule certainly substances which have completed phase three clinical trials.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 2

This, this is the real sign that their internal polling is showing Trump really closing on getting blow thirty percent approval.

Speaker 1

That's that's the most whatever gets. It's actual legal marijuana.

Speaker 9

Fuck it. Yeah, Like at this point.

Speaker 10

It's such an easy win, and it's been an easy win for the last three presidents, and anyone could have done it.

Speaker 1

It's a gun that's been left on the ground and fucking Trump finally just picked the damn thing up after it got covered in an inch and a half at dust.

Speaker 9

Like unbelievable.

Speaker 2

They're desperate, keep pushing. We can get like completely legal ELOSD I believe in us m hmm.

Speaker 4

On Fox News' Sunday Morning Show, Cash Burttel announced that the FBI will soon make arrests related to Trump's claims that the twenty twenty election was stolen, with Patel saying, quote, they tried to thwart our elections and rig the entire system.

Speaker 17

I can announce on your show that we've got all the information we need We're working with our prosecutors, a Department of Justice and their Attorney General, Todd Blanche and we are going to be making arrest and it's coming, and I promise you it's coming soon.

Speaker 4

Bettel later said it's a conspiracy case and that quote, we have the information to back President Trump's claims. On Tuesday, voters in Virginia approved a redistracting measure which would likely move four Republican seats to Democrat seats in the midterms. This measure passed was fifty one point five percent of the vote, totaling over three million votes. Virginia joins California in approving new congressional maps to combat the recent gerrymandering

in red states like Texas. At the behest of Trump, but now with Virginia, Dems are actually up one seat nationally. Ronda Santis has called for Florida lawmakers to meet next week to consider redistricting in their state. Trump has called the Virginia election quote unquote rigged, saying that Republicans were winning until a quote massive mail in ballot drop quote, which is just how elections work. That's just how voting works.

Speaker 1

Yeah, we were winning until more people voted for the other.

Speaker 4

Until we counted more votes that showed that we did not win.

Speaker 2

We just live in the twenty sixteen election forever. Now, Yeah, it's great.

Speaker 1

I was doing pretty well in that boxing match until it started.

Speaker 10

Until the other guy punched me in the face.

Speaker 4

The margin of victory closely matches the result of the twenty twenty four presidential election in Virginia. Republicans have challenged the Virginia redistricting in court since before today's election, and the Supreme Court of Virginia ruled that the measure could

go to a vote while legal challenges continue. This is the second most important election this week, the most important one obviously being the Webbys, in which I think we can announce we have won Woo in unrigged election matters, the only fair election that this country is seen, possibly in like over twenty five years.

Speaker 10

That's why they selected Claude as Person of the year.

Speaker 1

Clearly, the Webbees in twenty twenty six are the only election that's going to affect anybody's lives.

Speaker 9

I think we can all agree on that anyway.

Speaker 1

So as you probably are aware, because the President shouts about it every ten minutes, there's a ceasefire currently in effect in the conflict with Iran, the war of choice that we started with Iran. James is going to talk a little bit more about that in a second. But because of the stand down, there's been kind of time for both forces to you know, reassess things, and time for outside people to reassess like kind of what we

can tell about what's going on. Obviously, in the immediate wake of Operation Epic Fury, and is recently as last Tuesday, President Trump said, quote, we've taken out their navy, We've taken out their air force, We've taken out their leaders. On April eighth, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth called Operation Epic Fury a historic and overwhel victory on the battlefield. By any measure, Epic Fury decimated Iran's military and rendered it

combat and effective for years to come. Now, that last sentence, the first part is technically accurate.

Speaker 9

But not in the way that hegseeth means.

Speaker 10

No one knows what decimate means anymore.

Speaker 1

Decimate literally means to destroy like a tenth of a group. Yeah, right, yea, And yeah, that's pretty accurate, right, But the second part of that sentence rendered it combat and effective for years to come is not accurate. Neither is Trump's statement that

we've taken out their navy and their air force. CBS published an article today reporting that roughly sixty percent of the naval arm of the Islamic Revolutionary guardcore is still in existence, including fast tag speedboats and Iranian air power, while it's been degraded, is still significantly more functional than actually I had assumed. About two thirds of the Iranian Air Force is still believed to be operational, despite the massive US in his Israeli air strikes largely targeting air

production and storage facilities. The fact that you're looking at two thirds of Iran's navy and air force still functional and at least about half their ballistic missile stockpile and

their launch system stockpile intact. That's a significant difference from what the administration has claimed and evidence that where we to continue to press with the open fighting part of this conflict, it would be years probably before you're talking about like a complete degradation of Iranian fighting capability if that was ever achieved, Like when you factor in the United States would continue to suffer casualties, and we've already

been losing more of, you know, particularly our interceptor missile capability and a number of advanced systems like a wax, then we can afford to replace James.

Speaker 10

Yeah, so I want to talk a little bit about the cease fire itself, right, and then like what's been happening there. Let's start with, like I guess straight off, horn moves updates and then get into the CISFAR. The Navy intercepted an Iranian vessel in the Arabian Sea this week, close to the Iran Pakistan border. The Tuska was warned. Imagine they use an l rad to warn it. People see l rads on ships sometimes I think they're coming to like make you deaf. That's one of the reasons

of ships have lrads. They could have also used the radio that if they can talk to them on the radio of their receiving communications with the radio. They then ordered it to evacuate its engine room. They then shot out its engine with the five inch gun.

Speaker 9

First time they've gotten to do that in forty years.

Speaker 10

Yeah, I was looking at it. I guess it was it was since what nineteen eighty eight, the last time that I was thinking it's It's been a lot. It's been a minute since the ship engaged inner the ship with its main gun. It was a USS Spruance, it guided missile destroyer that did that. Subsequently, US marines on the Tripoli we were posted on when the Tripoli first move towards that region.

Speaker 6

Right.

Speaker 10

We specifically said that this is one of the capacities that it had they boarded the ship, so they transferred a helicopter and then boarded the ship. The US has since inspected other ships, including outside of the Saint Comeo. So the US perceives its blockade to be global right of Iranian assets, of Iranian vessels and the quote unquote shadow fleet, which you've already explained on ED, so I'm not going to go into depth on what that means. The IOGC also fired at several vessels in the street.

There is some reporting that one of them, an Indian tanker, had paid a fee in cryptocurrency to what turned out to be a scammer. I am certain that these scams exist because there have been multiple warnings of them. I haven't seen any evidence that is satisfactory enough for me to be confident that that particular ship had been scammed. The most compelling piece of evidence. A ship is called the San Mar Herald. Is this audio that we're going to play right here?

Speaker 4

If my navy sefi naby, is this modeling a san Mada?

Speaker 6

You give me Clarence to go?

Speaker 4

My name second on your list.

Speaker 3

You get me Clarence to go.

Speaker 10

You are fighting now, let me turn back, just to guess I wasn't clear. You gave me clearance to go. You're firing now, let me turn back. So it does seem that that vessel believe that it had clearance to go and was sent fire upon this morning. There was some ocynth pictures of IIGC and they looked like kind of fast attack boats kind of things. Throughout what was talking about in the straight up horn mus Yeah, something of a flex Yay, we still have a navy like yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think that's important in the context of the ceasefire. I want to explain very briefly, there's been a lot of contradictory reporting on when, where, and how negotiations are going to happen. It cease fire was set to expire

the day we're recording Wednesday. On Tuesday, we saw Donald Trump laterally extend the ceasefire by truthing quote based on the fact that the government of Iran is seriously fractured, not unexpectedly so, and upon the request of Field Marshal Simonia and Prime Minister Shabaz Sharif of Pakistan, we have been asked to hold our attack on the country of Iran until such time as their leaders and representatives can

come up with a unified proposal. I have therefore directed our military to continue the blockade and in all other respects remain ready and able, and will therefore extend the cease fire until such time as their proposal hast submitted and discussions are concluded one way or the other. President Donald J. Trump, the consensus seems to me that this

is not like an infinite extension. This is like maybe less than a week for Iran to either comply with US terms or submit proposals in the US considers acceptable. A lot of that reporting does seem to come from Barack Revied, who's not really good at journalism, so take

it with the pinch of salt. Trump, though, is correct that the state of Iran is on a unified entity, and I covered this in the piece I did last week on an update on the Iran war, Right, Like, I think there's a tendency from people in the global North to look at a state and see it as like a pyramid. Right, you have the head of state, and then you have government, and then you have legislature, and then you have the people they commanded, right, military

and all the civil bureaucracy. That's not quite how Iran works. And I went into more detail in that episode that I made, so I'm not going to go into it here, but there are a series of overlapping but not entirely aligned power centers within Iran and within its military capacity, both within its military and the traditional sense, and within

the IIGC. Why this is relevant to the negotiations is it it's not possible for politicians to negotiate if they do not believe that they can agree to terms and that their military will then comply with those terms.

Speaker 6

Right.

Speaker 10

If the Iranian Foreign Ministry agrees with the US to do something, the IGC doesn't do it, that then immediately undermines any further negotiations.

Speaker 6

Right.

Speaker 10

So when we see, for instance, this morning, a large number of boats going into straight upform news that looks a little bit like a flex right, in the context of this power struggle, in the context of Trump acknowledging that Trump has once again been truthing this week about Iranian nuclear weapons. I'm just going to read one of his truths because I think it contained. It shows that the administration feels that it is weak on this particular accusation.

Israel never took me into the war with Iran. The results of October seventh added to my lifelong opinion that Iran can never have a nuclear weapon. Did Yeah, I don't know what's going on with that sentence.

Speaker 4

That's just that's that's Iran can never have a nuclear weapon in karmadd did the word did?

Speaker 6

Yeah?

Speaker 10

Yeah, I'm not reading that wrong. Yes, just it's to hang out just what it said.

Speaker 2

Yeah, he's simply senile.

Speaker 10

I can't help you. I'm just saying the words. I watch it and read the fake news pundits and polls in total disbelief. Ninety percent of what they say are lies and made up stories, and the polls are rigged, much as a twenty to twenty presidential election was rigged, just like the results in Venezuela, which the media doesn't

like talking about the results in Iran. Will be amazing and if arounds new leaders, regime chains, exclamation mark clothes, parentheses are smart, Iran can have a great and prosperous future. President DJT. That's one of the more challenging passages of English language texts that I've ever approached. I speak four or five languages, and that's that's speak set me back, But I've tried to give you a good faith reading

of it. He's clearly sensitive to the allegation that Israel pushed the US into this conflict.

Speaker 4

Rant He's clearly sensitive.

Speaker 10

The last thing that I want to add is that strikes on Kurdish groups have continued despite the ceasefire, right despite the renewed ceasefire the PAK. Just two hours after Trump announced the extension of the ceasefire, Tehran sent four drones to attack a PAK base. There have been more injuries in Kurdistan. It doesn't seem that Iran considers any ceasefire to apply to its ongoing attack against the Deutroy Dulati groups who are currently in southern Kurdistan inside the borders of Iraq.

Speaker 4

Next up, we will discuss the charges against the SPLC, But first listen to these acts. Okay, we are back. On Tuesday, April twenty, first Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche and FBI Director Cash Battel announced that a grand jury indited the Southern Poverty Law Center on eleven counts, including wire fraud, false statements to a federally insured bank, and

conspiracy to commit to concealment money laundering. The indictment argues that the SPLC defrauded their donors by using donation money to pay confidential informants within white supremacist or neo Nazi organizations. Here is a short clip of the press conference of a reporter asking Todd Blanche a question, I just want to make sure.

Speaker 16

I understand you're alleging that the Southern Poverty Law Center was paying the leaders of KKK and other groups to continue.

Speaker 6

Their operations.

Speaker 18

Is that I'm not alleging it. The grandeury return and indictment that says that. And so what the investigation found, according to the indictment that was returned today, is that

they were paying. So the Southern Poverty Law Center is raising money, asking folks to give them money to dismount racism, and over a very long period of time, they were using some of the money they raised from donors to pay to they call them feel you know, basically to informants for information, for access, to just pay them for certain to do certain things. And so yes, that's exactly what the indictment charges.

Speaker 4

The SPLC is a nonprofit advocacy organization aimed at quote unquote dismantling white supremacy and exposing hate. They operate a blog called hate Watch and run a public database of

hate groups and far right extremists. This indictment claims that the SPLC has utilized informants to gained information on far right activity since the eighties, but between twenty fourteen and twenty twenty three, the SPLC secretly paid over three million dollars to individuals associated with various violent extriist groups quote unquote in a clandestine manner.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 1

No, one, if you kind of have been in the world of CVE counting violent extremism like research or like involved in NGOs in that sphere at all, or a been a researcher there, you're probably aware of the fact that the SPLC, like has been paying informants. A lot of their scoops are because some Nazi tells on another

Nazi essentially right yeah, so that part isn't surprising. The weirdness is how the SPLC was going about it and how much fucking money they were giving some of these The amounts of some of these is yeah, it was legitimately shocking, and I do want to get into some more details about those amounts in the groups and the sort of nest of fake businesses the SPLC used to distribute.

Speaker 4

This money, according to the indictment. The indictment reads that this was donation money quote received under the auspice that the funds would be used to quote unquote dismantle violent ex rivist groups. This money was instead being used in part by the SPLC to pay leaders and others within these same violenctricy humis groups. That money was then used for the benefit of the individuals as well as the

violent extremist groups unquote. Money was funneled to individuals associated with violent extreamist groups, including the klu Klux Klan, the United Clans of America, Unite the Right National Alliance, National Socialist Movement, Aryan Nations, and the affiliated Sadistic Soul's Motorcycle Club, National Socialist Party of America, American Nazi Party, and American Front.

One informant, according to the indictment, was quote a member of the online leadership chat group that planned the twenty seventeen Unite the Right event in Charlottesville, Virginia, and attended the event at the direction of the SPLC. This informant made racist postings under the supervision of the SPLC and

helped coordinate transportation to the event for several attendees. Between twenty fifteen and twenty twenty three, the SPLC secretly paid this informant more than two hundred and seventy thousand dollars from twenty fourteen to twenty twenty three. More than one million dollars was allegedly paid to someone affiliated with the National Alliance who served as an informant for over twenty

years while fundraising for this Nazi group. The Imperial Wizard of the Rebooted Imperial Clans of America was a paid

informant according to the indictment. This is likely a guy named Bradley Jenkins, an officer in the National Socialist Movement and the Aryan Nations affiliated Sadistic Souls Motorcycle Club, secretly received more than three hundred thousand dollars between twenty fourteen and twenty twenty, the former chairman of the National Alliance was secretly paid more than one hundred and forty thousand dollars, while the SPLC website featured an extremist profile page for

this individual, likely Eric Glebe. The SPLC also paid the leader of the National Socialist Party of America seventy thousand dollars between twenty fourteen to twenty sixteen. This individual was a former director of an Aryan Nations faction and a former member of the CAKE. This is likely a guy named Paul Mullett, who the SBLC hosts an extremist file

web page on their website. A few other unidentified informants are listed in the indictment, as well as a claim that the SBLC funneled more than one hundred and sixty thousand dollars from a fictitious entity to an informant quote, who then sent funds to various violent extremist group leaders, including the former Grand Wizard of the Knights of the klu Klux Klan unquote. That's a lot of money.

Speaker 6

Now.

Speaker 4

To obscure the nature of these payments, the SBLC opened a series of bank accounts at multiple banks for various fictitious businesses. These weren't actually incorporated, but they claimed to be businesses with names like The Center Investigative Agency or the CIA, Why Yeah, Fox Photography, Northwest Technologies, Tech Writers Group, Rare Books, Warehouse Imagery, Inc. Ja JA Electronics, Kelly's Marine, and Turner Personnel.

Speaker 9

Great Good Work Guys.

Speaker 4

Essentially, the DOJ is arguing that the SBLC solicited donations under false pretenses and then transferred that money to extremist groups using a network of fake businesses. To get a conviction, the dog will have to argue that this activity constitutes wirefraud, false statements to a federally insured bank, and conspiracy to commit concealment money laundering. A conviction will result in the

forfeiture of financial gains from the alleged illegal activities. The right has reacted to this news by calling the Unite the Right rally and kind of the alt right movement as it existed from this time period a syop or a false flag. Senator Mike Lee, right wing political influencer Nick Sorter, and Elon Musk have boosted these claims, getting tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands alikes on x

Everything app This seems to be a narrative. It's not really new, I guess, but an enhanced narrative that is emerging among the online right as a way to dissuade some of the uglier parts of that era, while still carrying along a lot of the same politics, especially on like the Great Replacement, which is more of a mainstream idea among the conservative movement at this point in time, so they're able to walk away from the uglier kind of imagery and explicitly notz the elements of this like

the KKK, which is very boomer very very very Boomer coded k the KKK, so they're able to call stuff like that and the Unite the Right rally of syop or a false flag while still reaping the benefits that the alt right movement achieved by kind of trailblazing certain

rhetoric into the conservative mainstream. Right wing commentators have also used this news to reassert one of their favorite claims that Patriot Front is a psyop or a false flag operation, that whenever a group of young Nazis show up in a u all all wearing matching outfits and masks, that this is a staged event by either the deep State, the FEDS, or a group like the SPLC. Patriot Front

is not actually named in this indictment. There's no evidence that the SPLC was paying anyone at Patriot Front to inform on the operations of that group, and obviously paying an individual to inform on the details of an upcoming event like Unite the Right does not mean that the Unite the Right event in Charlottesville was planned or staged by the SPLC. Dozens of people were involved in the planning of this event, and hundreds participated of their own volition.

One person in a planning group chat sending info to the SPLC does not mean that this action was staged or fake.

Speaker 1

Anyone who's in the field has that a lot of issues with the SPLC over the last few years, especially people who work for them. I have a lot of I know a lot of people have worked for them and gotten fucked over by them. They did a lot of union busting too. The people who run the SPLC, and some of whom are the people who are specifically

accused of having committed these crimes. I don't know if I feel like that like the specific things they have to prove in order to date a conviction are accurate because fundamentally, anyone who donated to the SPLC knew that they were like getting shipped from informants. You know, like, I don't think that was like the amount of money though, is shocking.

Speaker 4

That's what the That's what they're gonna have to defend in court. Yeah, they're gonna have to hard and have to argue that the money that was donated was used for its intended purpose, which was dismantling whit's premisies. You'll have to say that the information that they obtained through these through through paying these informants, was still in furtherance of that mission. Right, That's going to be what they're going to defend in court.

Speaker 15

Now.

Speaker 4

You know, obviously the FBI also uses information, sure, right, the FBI does this same thing. Famously, the FBI paid the OH nine A affiliated Joshua Caleb Sutter over one hundred and forty thousand dollars from twenty three to twenty

twenty one. The FBI funded a publishing house, a neo Nazi publishing house essentially yeah yeah, yeah, which is responsible for, in part, the political direction of the Adam Off Indivision now at Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche has said that quote the SPLC is manufacturing racism to justify its existence end quote. Using donor money to allegedly profit off klansmen cannot go unchecked. Unquote. Patel has said that quote this is illegal, and this is an ongoing investigation against all

individuals involved. The SBLC released a video statement saying that the use of informants was quote unquote necessary and claimed quote these individuals risked their lives to infiltrate and inform on the activities of our nation's most radical and violent

extremist groups unquote. The indictment does not characterize many of these informants as quote unquote infiltrators, but rather individuals who were already members of these groups and were paid by the SBLC to share information and gossip on fellow members. The SBLC statement also said that they quote frequently shared what we learned from informants with local and federal law enforcement,

including the FBI. We did not, however, share our use of informants broadly with anyone to protect the identity and safety of the informants and their families unquote, like a lot of the people in this field. The FBI knew the SBLC was doing this.

Speaker 9

Yeah, Yeah.

Speaker 4

After the assassination of Charlie kirk Cash, Betel announced that the FBI was severing ties with the SBLC, saying the organization had been turned into a quote unquote partisan smear machine that defamed quote unquote mainstream Americans with its hate map.

Speaker 6

Okay.

Speaker 4

Attorney Ed Martin, former head of the DOJ's Weaponization Working Group as in weaponizing the dj against political enemies, shared news of the indictment on x everything app and wrote, quote, they killed Charlie and they will pay unquote. So clearly this prosecution is politically motivated. Right There is political motivations

behind deciding to do this right now. The FBI already knew that this was happening to a certain extent, but now they are going after the SBLC as a part of a targeted political prosecution, and this indictment could be seen as part of the anti Antifa nonprofit crackdown. Last March, CBS News reported that the FBI and the IRS formed a new initiative to investigate fraud at nonprofit organizations with suspected links to domestic terrorism following federal directives to pursue

Antifa aligned groups. A spokesperson from the IRS told CBS News quote, IRS Criminal Investigation is collaborating with federal law enforcement agencies, including the FBI, to investigate individuals and entities that may be funding the domestic terrorism or political violence.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's it's unfortunate that the SPLC was so reckless and sloppy, and the fucking amounts are shocking and indefensible and again not necessarily in a legal sense. Like I'm very doubtful of the government's case, but I am very angry at the Southern Poverty Law Center, And I don't think it should contend you to exist as an organization, like if it's going to do this.

Speaker 10

Yeah, and like when you combine this as you say, like anyone who works in this world knows people working there had a mitiable time for a long time, for a great variety of recent time.

Speaker 9

Yeah, I'm livid at them.

Speaker 1

Yeah, this is obviously evidence that the Trump administration is doing what they've said they're doing that, Like the DOJ is going to be looking into these like big you know, liberal and left aligned in goos particularly that like are focused on combating the far right, but in terms of this showing any reason to be scared that they're going to disappear people like, no, the SPOC did something crazy, and I don't think that the charges specifically are valid,

but like they open themselves up to get fucked with by doing something so not like give one of these people a million dollars a million dollars, Yeah, that's wild.

Speaker 4

Yeah, why do they have a fake company named after the CIA?

Speaker 9

What are you guys doing?

Speaker 10

Yeah, someone thought they were being a really cool secret spy.

Speaker 4

And I mean those are some of the charges that may be able to stick. Is the sort of stuff about misrepresenting yeah to a federally insured bank that that type of stuff could be easier to argue based on what I've read in the indictment, but of course that'll get settled in court.

Speaker 2

Yeah yeah, yeah. And as a way to sort of close this out, I think one of the things that we're running into here is one of the thing that the right is being able to use here is the fact that a lot of these sort of liberal in central left NGOs absolutely sucked and like we have covered on this show, you know, a whole bunch of these organizations do in union busting, and they're like, their priorities don't necessarily match what you know, I would say ours

should be. And I think this is something that this administration is going to continue to sort of in some ways use as a rift point, like the fact that these groups are doing all of this in unhinged shit, right, this is this is the political consequence of the structure that these NGOs use in the way that they've operated, and now there's sort of chickens are coming home to roost.

Speaker 10

I want to talk this week in our immigration segment about the United States Citizenship and Immigration Service. This is the agency task with vetting and adjudicating immigration benefits. It's the only immigration agency at DHS. It traditionally hasn't done enforcement sweeps right, So for a while, particularly recently, people there have felt a little out of place at the Department Home Security.

Speaker 6

Right.

Speaker 10

The idea has been keep enforcement and processing separate so that people don't have very reasonable reasons to fear doing the legal process, right, so that people continue to show up to their interviews, to submit their documents, et cetera. Generally, they are funded in a large part by immigration fees and perceived as the friendly and more welcoming side of

the process. Their job isn't historically has not been to kind of root out bad migration as so much as to help people, or at least to process people to do the bureaucratic part of migration. Under the second Trump administration, however, this has changed. There have been detentions at interviews, there have been cancelations of citizenships ceremonies. The USAS has begun hiring for a new position, and this new position is eligible for remote work, for more remote work than existing hires,

and it's called the Homeland Defender. So like we probably many people have seen these Homeland Defender advertisements on x dot com, the everything website right, Homeland Defenders have been offered up to fifty thousand dollars in signing bonuses, and at the same time as offering remote work benefits for the Homeland Defenders, the agency has been forcing other people to return to offices that could no longer fit the number of staff it had under years of work from home.

The agency grew and changed right like almost every organization did, and there were reports that you literally had like lawyers sitting in corridors working on their laptops or like trying to perch on a radiator or a window sill because their offices could fit people. Right, and at the same time, the branding around Homeland Defender is not the way that

USCIS staff traditionally saw themselves. In Minnesota, USCAS has begun reinvestigating people admitted with the incredibly highly vetted refugee status. So we already spoke about it once today. Right, the refugees are vetted before they even enter the United States. Across the country, executive orders will followed with memos pausing or entirely stopping the process of legal and veted immigration

for people from an increasing number of countries. The legally mandated green cards for adult children and siblings or current sistants, as well as spouses and minor children of existing permanent residents has gone unfulfilled. This is quote unquote family based migration. They used to call it chain migration. Right. That used to be the language on the right. It's something that

Trump administration has hated since its first term. Right, this has been a thing that they spoke about and that has been spoken about at the right for some time. These green cards could be reused for employment based claims, which is going to have a much larger number of people who are already in the country. It's not bringing new people in or they might go Unused. Refugees are being detained without any clear legal authority and requizzed about

their applications. According to reporting in The New Yorker, this means that people are being taken in meaned at an ice facility right and then quiz about stuff that they'd already been asked about before they came to the United States when they were doing that vetting. People who are married to United States citizens are being arrested at interviews, even though generally there was an amnesty of people who, for instance, had overstate a visa and then got married before.

USCIS has also committed significant resources of the agency that may well have been taken away from processing claims and devoted them entirely to investigating naturalizations with the goal of denaturalizing naturalized United States citizens. This is a very difficult process right. The Afreem case is the Supreme Court case which governs this right. It refers to someone who was

a Jewish communist or had been in Israel. What it says is the government cannot de citizenize someone because it doesn't agree with their politics, even in the time of anti communism. Right, Once somebody becomes a citizen in their files or remove from USCIS and they go to the National Record Center and so calling the presumably tens of thousands of files of naturalized United States citizens and hundreds of thousands over time millions right would require some kind

of filter. The most likely way this is being filtered is through their nationality.

Speaker 6

Right.

Speaker 10

One can imagine, for instance, that the seventy five countries Trump has paused green card processes for might be a start, or their specific focus on Somali people might even prove a more focused way of doing it right. They have had some success this week. A Belizean woman was found guilty of naturalization fraud for submitting a fake divorce degree She married an American citizen without being divorced from a previous spouse. Belize They found that she had falsified those documents.

Speaker 6

Right.

Speaker 10

They are also pursuing a case against a Nigerian man who has already been convicted of fraud and it has already been put in prison for that, but they are now pursuing a denaturalization case as well. Virtually every interaction with USCIS now seems to require interviews in person and biometric connection. This means that applicants now have to come into an office where they know that people have been detained. This leads to people being afraid to do that right.

Petitions are slowing down as they're moved around to a dwindling workforce which is still focused on processing those as opposed to the growing amount of the USCIS workforce which is looking for quote unquote fraud in applications or attempting to denaturalize people. As we just covered, among the people waiting without visas are some people who are waiting for special visas, which are given to people who are survivors of human trafficking, gender based violence, or other crimes. This

includes children. There's especially Immigrant Juvenile visa, which every single person I've heard of coming on an SIJ visa has had things happen to them which I didn't struggle to think about that would keep you up at night. And the thought that those people are waiting in limbo because they're trying to denaturalize people is particularly upsetting. I'm sure it's also upsetting to some people who've worked at uscis their whole life, and I know that morale among those

people is pretty low. While the agency sort of has changed beyond all recognition in the last couple of years. Talking of changing beyond all recognition, we're going to now pivot from journalism to probably some adverts for online gambling. Yeah, it would be shocking and jarring.

Speaker 9

I love it.

Speaker 10

You could change your life beyond all recognition if you have a big win that.

Speaker 4

Or a big loss.

Speaker 10

Yeah, yeah, your life that way, Derrison. We're not supposed to mention.

Speaker 4

That we're back.

Speaker 1

And we all just voted on Forbes dot COM's newest prediction contest, how many people will be wounded in the next three American mass shootings. I'm excited. There's a big prize for this one.

Speaker 6

Sick.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's only slightly an exaggeration of what Forbes is actually doing.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 9

Yeah, it's pretty gross.

Speaker 4

It's pretty really hideous. It's okay, guys, it's not a market, it's just our prediction platform. It's a prediction platform. There's no real money, only social capital.

Speaker 10

That could be the slogan of most journalistic enterprises in twenty twenty six. To be honest, Forbes has kind of been a blog rather than a news website, but this is still pretty disgusting.

Speaker 4

Speaking of there being no real money.

Speaker 2

Yeah, let's talk about the Federal Reserve. So when we last left our I hesitate to call them heroes, yes, But when we last left the Federal Reserve Board, there was a very obviously cooked up investigation by the Justice Department into Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell. This investigation doesn't really seem to have advanced at all, but the conflict over Powell and over Powell's replacement has been intensifying in

recent weeks. Last week, on the fifteenth of April, Trump threatened to fire Powell if Powell stayed on as basically the temporary Federal Reserve Chair after his term expired. Now, the reason this is happening is because Trump's attempt to get someone confirmed to replace Powell has not been going well, and if no one is confirmed by May fifteenth, then the office is just empty, and Powell has said that he wants to stay on and become the temporary chair.

This is sort of unprecedented, but then again, we've also not ever had the president's open an investigation into the sitting chair of the Federal Reserve, causing him to give a reverse hostage video. So where things are right now is that we are getting hearings on Trump's preferred nominee, a man named Kevin Walsh. However, there is a real problem with worsh as as a candidate that's not doesn't have anything to do with who he is. We'll get

to that in a second. The biggest issue that Trump is facing here is that Tom Tillis, who's an outgoing Republican Senator, is refusing to let any Trump appointee pass through the Finance Committee unless Trump ends the investigation into Jerom Powell. So this has had everything at a complete standstill.

It was sort of unclear though a lot of different Republican senators had threatened to do something like this, But because Tillis is just leaving, he's just he's retiring at the end of this at the end of the session. He's the one who's you know, up there doing it. And this has ground the nomination to a halt. We're still getting hearings, but there's no way for him to actually get a vote to get get this process out

of committee. So into this morass steps Kevin Walsh, who He's not the most unhinged guy Trump could have hicked high bar. This is, at least nominally, on the surface, sort of a FED guy like he has worked for the Federal Reserve, like Federal Reserve banks before.

Speaker 4

He's not a podcast right, Yes, actually, actually.

Speaker 6

He might have one.

Speaker 9

There's a non zero chance.

Speaker 10

He might be.

Speaker 4

He might be.

Speaker 2

I I don't know, but I am not willing to say that he is not one. So now this, this, this whole nomination has also become a mess because again, as as we've been talking about, the reason why Trump wants to basically take direct control of the Federal Reserve and and FED independence by installing his guys as a chairman of the Federal Reserve Board is that he wants to FED well, he wants to be able to control the FED so he can control interest rates. He wants

interest rates cut. Now, this is coming up a lot in the hearings and so far Walsh is giving answers that if you've ever watched the testimony of someone who's who's trying to get onto the Supreme Court, it's a lot like that, where he is saying the things that he is supposed to say. He's saying that he opposes an interest rate cut. He's saying that the primary job of the FED is a combat inflation. He's saying that

he believes it fed independents. But he also has said that Trump has not asked him to cut interest rates. And Elizabeth Warren, who's been sort of leading the Democratic charge against this, has pointed out a number of things, one of which is in workboard. He gets some more of the weird shit with him in a second. But one of the major things here is that the President has said that he's asked Worsh to do just ray cuts. So somebody's lying here. Worsh isn't giving non answers about that.

I'm also just going to read this quote from the Associated Press quote. Warren also noted that Worsh has not disclosed all of his financial holdings, which include investments in startups and private companies, or the size of those financial stakes. For example, Worsh has said he has holdings in SpaceX and polymarkets, but it's not said how large those investments are.

Speaker 4

Great, well, you can't win them off.

Speaker 2

Yeah, So later on Warsh said he would divest from one hundred million dollars in investments but you know this is great. Warren also points out that he's in the Epstein files because Epstein apparently invited him and his wife to Wade party. It is unclear at this point what what a connection he had, or if there was more. But that's not a great sign. Where we are right now is that worsh is normal enough of a guy that Tom Tillis is willing to vote for him if

the investigation is dropped. Tillis and some other members of the committee have been Republican members of the committee have been talking about this scheme to get the investigation transferred from the Department of Justice to the Senate Committee. I think at which point they could basically just kill it or just have it be a thing at a budget overruns. That's not like an attempt to depose Jeroon Powell. It's not clear what's going to happen with that, and it

hasn't started yet. This is the point that we're at right now. This conflict is going to keep heating up as the May fifteenth deadline for getting a new nominion before the board vacancy happens, and Jerome Powell basically stays in power longer than his terminally last happens. So we're

going to keep following this story. And there's one other story that we are going to keep following, which is there was an exclusive by the Wall Street Journal, which is a report this is from unimed US officials, but it claims that the UAE's central bank governor is reportedly trying to get what's called a currency swap with the US.

So what a currency swap is basically is, it's like it's a way to try to fix an exchange rate and get a country a certain amount of US dollars by just like just at the fixed exchange rate, just like swapping X amount of dollars for x amounts of another country's currency. This report was immediately denied, very very quickly denied by a series of posts on x the everything app by the UAE's embassy to the US where they gave a thing of Trump also had like started

talking about this too. I'm just going to read a little bit of this quote. We very much appreciate President Trump's recognition of the UAE is one of America's most important economic and trade partners. That recognition reflex at depth of mutual trust based on mutual investment, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Any suggestion that the UAE requires external financial

backing misreads the facts. The UAE is one of the most financially resilient economies, underpinned by more than two trillion dollars in the sovereign and assets more than three hundred billion dollars in foreign currency reserves held by the UAE Central Bank and banking sectors, with approximately one point five trillion in deposits. So when they start listening out the deposits, that's when things are not going great.

Speaker 6

And yeah, the the.

Speaker 2

Issue here, and this is something this is what the Waalsher journal is talking about, is that this is not an immediate proposal. This is a proposal for what's becoming increasingly clear, which is that there's no there's not actually

an end to the war and Iran in sight. And if the trader for moves remains closed, this is an existential crisis for the UAE because not only are all of their exports stopped, you know, like the ue itself is just physically under threat, to the infrastructures under threat, and it's very difficult for them to get more investments.

And this could in the future start a dollar crisis of the kind that we've talked about on the show before Go if you want to, Yeah, I've talked about basically dollar crises and how you can have balance of payments crises for running out of US dollars. What's interesting about this reports, and the reason that we're sort of talking about it right now, is that one of the things that the UAE reportedly was mentioning was that they

might be forced to turn the Chinese currency. It's basically they might be forced to like sell oil in Chinese currency in order to get it through the straight, which would be a apackle shift to the entire global political economy, right, which is the America's status in the world is in part, but in no small part, based on the fact that you can really only buy oil in dollars. And it seems like what's happening is that the UAE is looking

at their long term prospects going we're completely screwed. They're going, oh, well, if we don't, if you don't just hand us a bunch of money, we're going to have to start looking at the underpinnings of you know, American imperial power. So we're going to continue to see where this goes. As just war continues, and as the stray continues to be blocked, countries around the world are going to become more and

more desperate. As the economic consequences of this ripples out across the world, We're probably going to start seeing more things like this. And at some point, if it becomes clear that the war is not going to end. In Trump's early week announcement that the ceasefires are going to keep going, stops being able to keep the stock markets from being propped up, We're going to start seeing an even wider spread impact of this. But this is a

bleak sign from a staunch US ally. Yeah, we have one final story before closing, which is a little funny, also worrying, but more more funny.

Speaker 10

I think that's pretty good.

Speaker 4

Shawnie Kirkhoff, the woman that Glenn Beck's right wing outlet The Blaze falsely accused of being the January sixth pipe bomber, has launched a lawsuit against The Blaze and the two

quote unquote journalists who wrote the story for context. Last November, the Blaze published a story claiming to have identified the bomber as a Capitol police officer who responded to the January sixth insurrection based on quote forensic gate analysis which determined the officer was a quote up to ninety eight percent match to surveillance video of the bomber.

Speaker 6

Oh God.

Speaker 4

This lawsuit claims five counts of defamation and one count of defamation by implication, and Kerkhoff is requesting a jury trial. The documents claim that the Blaze report targeted her because of her actions on January sixth as a police officer and testimony she gave against insurrectionists in court, and part of the intention of targeting her was to build on this larger idea that the defendants had that January sixth

was a quote unquote inside job. As these reports were getting published by The Blaze, Glenn Beck said on his show, quote this is one of the biggest stories. I think it is the biggest scandal of my lifetime, maybe in the last one hundred years.

Speaker 1

Paper monstrous, bigger than Watergate.

Speaker 4

Pullit surprise winning stuff.

Speaker 10

You have the capacity for self delusion, Yeah.

Speaker 4

Pullet sinning stuff.

Speaker 9

I'm waiting for the politics are committed to finish reviewing this one.

Speaker 10

They're gonna have to get in a nine after the pulic serprise are surely going to get for interviewing the dude who murdered Minneapolis Democratic politicians? Well, yeah, which I'm sure was an action that his lawyer was super stoked about.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 4

Court documents to say that because of this false claim, the CIA placed the plaintiff on administrative leave and she was forced into hiding amidst online threats from conspiracy theorists quote for her role in supporting the deep state, including in posts on her mother's obituary web page unquote, she was getting death threats on the obituary page for her mother.

Speaker 10

Yeah, in constant frustration in my life, his journalists posting screenshots from court cases and then not listening to the court listener page. So I decided to find the page so I could not be that guy. But yes, some of the threats this woman got genuinely probably made her life very difficult to live for a period of time.

Speaker 4

Absolutely. The stud alleges that even after she was cleared as a suspect and weeks later another suspect was arrested who seems to be the likely bomber, these blaze ute unquote journalists continue to harass her and that their quote, false and defamatory accusations have irreparably changed her life unquote. The documents that this ruined her lifetime career in public service by forever linking her to the bombing and records of an FBI investigation, making any potential security clearance is

needed in the future difficult or impossible to pass. One of the journalists was fired by the Blaze on April first, just earlier this month, and the other resigned two days later. They have since raised over twenty thousand dollars since leaving the Blaze to continue their claims on a new independent website that they're launching. Given the name of the website, the website is called Yeah, They're a toss regnant LLC.

Speaker 9

Yes, yes, Veritas.

Speaker 4

I think that just means the truth is king basically trains.

Speaker 10

Yeah, yeah, I think that's what they were going for at least.

Speaker 15

Yeah.

Speaker 6

I love it.

Speaker 4

I love it.

Speaker 1

When I read that detail, I was you guys are going to be the most sued any people have ever been.

Speaker 9

It's beautiful.

Speaker 10

Something about PITOD seems relevant here.

Speaker 4

The document says that the plaintiff was called in to work on November sixth, where two FBI agents then asked her about quote unquote online chatter that she was the bomber. She consented to a phone and car search and was placed on administrative leave. Later that day, a quote unquote caravan of FBI vehicles arrived outside her home, including a bomb disposal truck and a helicopter. I'm just going to read from the document quote. The agents claimed that they

were primarily looking for shoes. Agents edited their vehicles with their guns drawn in full tactical gear. An agent called mister Dickert, who is the plaintiff's boyfriend, and commanded him to quote come out of the house unarmed with your dogs. Mister Dickart and missus Kirkhoff complied and stepped outside. Agents swept through the house, then re entered with bomb sniffing dogs.

They opened cabinets, rifled through drawers, and scattered Missus Kerkhoff's and mister Dickard's belongings, all without obtaining Miss Kerr's or mister Dickert's consent. It suddenly occurred to miss Kirkoff that they were not simply looking for a pair of shoes.

Speaker 6

Unquote.

Speaker 10

Never heard the masking for the dogs to come out before that was a new one for me.

Speaker 4

That is an interesting detail. That is an interesting Yeah. So the plaintiff asked the agents there why they would do all this to investigate quote unquote online chatter, and as senior official responded that these orders came from quote unquote higher up and that Miss Kirkhoff could quote clear everything up just that night if she would accompany agents to the FBI office for a polygraph interview. Miss Kerkoff agreed, and agents assured her that the drive out to the

office would take longer than the interview itself. This was not true. The interview lasted almost three hours. Agents repeatedly accused the plaintiff of placing the bombs and continually asserted her guilt. Part Way through the interview, the interrogator changed out the tube on the polygraph because they quote did not like how they were reading unquote.

Speaker 10

That was a remarkable detail.

Speaker 4

Jesus yeah, oh, Jesus Christ, and at one point told the plaintiff that she quote unquote fail Wow. Oh, the plaintiff assumed was just an interrogation technique.

Speaker 10

Yeah, you can't fail a polygraph test, right, It just gives information, yes, often not actually information, which she's very useful in any way relevant to whether you're telling the truth or not. Polygraphs not not really something that should be used in this capacity. But here we go anyway. But yet there's not like a past fail. It doesn't like a bleep bleep bleep liar detective.

Speaker 4

Now, after midnight, she asked if she was free to leave, and the agents said yes, so she went home. In the next day, the FBI returned her phone, and then once she got back her phone, she saw this quote unquote online chatter exploding all over, alleging that she was

the bomber. A day later, the Blaze published a report explicitly naming her as the bombing suspect, something they already alluded to in previous reporting, which sparked the online chatter, which caused the FBI to search her home and interrogate her. This was all intentional on the part of the Blaze.

According to this court document, the defendants, these quote unquote journalists purposely forwarded a tip to the Office of the Director of National Intelligence in an attempt to get quote unquote coroboration of their reporting from sources inside the government by getting the plaintiff placed under investigation. Prior to their publishing of the articles identifying her as the bomber. This was basically all part of the ski.

Speaker 9

Their goal was to set the narrative Jesus Christ.

Speaker 4

Months later, the defendants have refused to remove headlines or social media posts claiming to identify the bomber, even after the actual text of these articles was removed after the FBI arrested the real suspect in December. Well, just last month, the quote unquote journalists published another article on The Blaze titled, quote Brian Cole Junior's physical presence, posture, mannerisms are no match to FBI's hooey clad pipe bomb suspect unquote god.

This was another article on The Blaze saying that Gate analysis showed that Brian Cole Junior, the actual suspect who has been arrested, does not match the Gate does not have a positive Gate analysis match to the surveillance footage from that night.

Speaker 1

Oh god, because it's not real, because because Gate analysis is bullshit.

Speaker 10

Well they break that down in the quote documents, right. The footage of her that they had was when she's carrying like fifty pounds of tactical gear and a heavy.

Speaker 1

Bag tactical gear yes, yes, and she suffered a serious laying injury in college.

Speaker 10

Yeh, it's comical that like they that this is what they went with, but then the fact that they're doubling down on it's very.

Speaker 4

Funny and legally baffling.

Speaker 10

Yeah, they really are not ready for the consequences to hit them on this one.

Speaker 4

No. So, like I said, these two quote unquot journalists were fired and Slash left The Blaze earlier this month, but in posts and podcast appearances, they assert that Brian Cole Junior is a quote unquote patsy, and that quote the truth about the pipe bomber has been quote unquote floored it, and that quote unquote legal considerations are preventing them from further disclosing the quote unquote darker details about their yeah, pipe bomber theory is christ Now, Brian Colet

Junior's defense lawyers have filed a subpoena for miss Kirkoff, which misleadingly states she quote unquote failed a polygraph. This subpoena also contains her home address, and the subpoena has been spread online by these quote quote journalists as evidence that they were right all along. The plaintiff continues to deal with doxing and death threats as a result from the subpoena, and the quote unquote journalists continued reporting, spreading

claims that she is in fact the real bomber. So Kirkoff is requesting a jury trial with these six counts of defamation. And I hope she gets a lot of money from everyone involved in this.

Speaker 9

Yeah, I hope she gets every dollar.

Speaker 10

Glenn beck Hans, Yeah, I mean I hope the outlets existing that is that would be ideal.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I hope the outlet becomes yet another subsidiary of the Onion.

Speaker 10

That would be a magnificent way for this to end. But yeah, like yeah, and then another element of the documents are noticed with that they talked about how the the quote unquote journalists had benefited from their Blue check X posts.

Speaker 4

Right, yeah, monetized accounts on X.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 10

I would be interested to see as we get more in discovery element of this case, how much were they making how much would it making from X versus the Blaze? Like, I'm going to follow this one just because so many of the bits of misleading reporting we see are because of this financial incentive structure. So it'll be very revealing for us well.

Speaker 4

And this financial structure is something that X Everything app is somewhat attempting to take on, at least for news aggregator accounts.

Speaker 10

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they specifically went off to dom Lucret apparently.

Speaker 4

Yes, one of X's guys announced like a week or so ago that they're going to be reforming reforming the payout system for news aggregators. This is uh Nikolie de Beer.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Part of the way they're doing that is that Ex's traffic is in free fall, and this is something that we're seeing, like across social media. There was a really good report that Peter Tornberg, who's an assistant professor in computational social science at the University of Amsterdam, published earlier this year.

Speaker 9

I mean, like just today came up with an update on it.

Speaker 1

On like the most recent numbers we have on like what's happening to the different social media networks. Visiting and posting on X the Everything app and Facebook have seen like a nearly fifty percent drops, a significant decline among like the youngest and the oldest users on social media, particularly like people over sixty five and people from eighteen to twenty four have seen like the biggest decline and like the time that they've actually spent on site. I'm going to be doing something.

Speaker 4

More detailed about this in the future, But a lot of what you're.

Speaker 1

Seeing from these big social media companies and these like big pivots, right are moves in desperation. This is not working as well as it used to. The economics that once underpin this system are falling apart. None of these companies are as profitable as they used to be, and people are pulling away from social media, particularly from like a lot of the text based social media sites which were never as profitable as like short form video was.

So I don't know, that's something that made me less bummed.

Speaker 4

Well, I hope, I hope she gets certainly all the money they got from X and learning how much money that was will be super interesting in discovery and hopefully much much much more money as well.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 4

Yeah, speaking of money, James, you wanted to plug a donation.

Speaker 9

That's right.

Speaker 10

Yeah, I want to talk retty briefly about the guys from Cobra column. So Cobra Column if people aren't familiar, it's a special Forces or it's a PDF that is aligned with the Korn National Union Crerand National Liberation Army and the struggle for liberation in the m R against the Hunter Right. They have been fighting intensely in an area near reality, place that Robert and I spend some time, actually just across the river from place Robin I spend

some time. Albeit the Hunter has successfully launched munitions into Thailand several times now, and they are really like if you want to look at the front line of people's autonomy against autocracy, against dictatorship, against tyranny, like they are at it, and they need money to sustain their efforts, to feed themselves, to equip themselves, to buy medical equipment, and I think they're also trying to buy like a replacement helmets and body armor because they're keep getting hit

by drones, right, and people have survivable injuries, but their armor is destroyed. If you'd like to help, you can send fifteen euros for ten stickers. Stickers have the Milk Tea Alliance salute, which is the same as the salute that the cub Scouts use and the one from Hunger Games. I'm not going to describe it because you can work it out. It is stickers for Meanmar at ProtonMail dot com.

You can send fifteen euros for two stickers. That's s T I C K E R S f O R M y A N M A R at ProtonMail dot com. If you want to email us cool Zone Tips at proton don't me If it's a marketing email, I'll block you.

Speaker 2

Put a trans girl on your couch.

Speaker 4

We reported the.

Speaker 9

News hy, Bye, We reported the news.

Speaker 6

Hey.

Speaker 1

We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the Universe.

Speaker 4

It could Happen Here is a production of pool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website Foolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 1

You can now find sources where it Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions.

Speaker 4

Thanks for listening.

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