It Could Happen Here Weekly 193

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Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions.

Welcome to take it happen here show about things falling apart and how to put them back together again. I am your host, Na Wong for another It's both episode, and what I say both, I mean we are talking about something that we've been covering kind of some extent in a bunch of different cities, which is a bunch of hospitals incredibly cowardly decision to not provide trans youth with gender firming care that they need out of a

Thank you for having us, Thank you, yeah.

And thank you for doing this genuinely really critical work to try to get this hospital to not severely harm their translations.

Yeah.

Good lord, you know we'd be fighting this battle right right.

Yeah. So, Okay, I guess the place I want to start is, can you explain sort of the exact situation of what happened after their sort of recent Supreme Court ruling and what the hospital decided to do and not do.

Yeah, So, from our understanding, what's been going on with UPMC or the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center is they've decided to end all gender firming care. This includes puberty

Yeah, I also just want to say, like I've had like insurance bullshit, where like I've been taken off of my stuff for like a month.

And a half and it sucks. It is awful.

It is psychologically painful in ways that are like difficult to describe.

It really sucks.

Right from a physical standpoint, You're going to get side effects, you have issues, we're coming off these vacations. But from a mental standpoint, right, it's these people who are not your doctors are determining what your care is and it's incredibly harmful.

In both the physical and the mental aspect of it.

Yeah, and again we're just talking about healthcare pertrans you at the end of the day, and a lot of them, well puberty bloster and just a therapy are that they're taken away any persons over eighteen years old.

They're legally, you.

Know, able to vote, should be able to make their own decisions that they want to with their health care. So it's really discussing and disheartening what is happening. And here in Pennsylvania, UPMC was the first large health provider, which is one of the largest in the state, to start this domino effect of stopping care for transit.

Yeah, and I mean it creates this hiteous situation where just like because of a combination of like some gender bureaucrat at the White House was like, I get to decide what your gender is now, and I get to decide what your healthcare is because of that, and then you have this like cascading effect of like some like hospital admin was like, well, I don't know, I think it would be easier for like me personally if you didn't have health care. It just like it's cascading through

It's horrible, And I appreciate that data makes that point of we use this phrase gender affirming care to specify what's going on, but it's healthcare. It's you know, not that different from someone being forced to come off diabetes medication or medication for our heart problem. You know, this medication that makes people be able to function in their life and feel safe and physically, well, that's what's being forced out of their lives. So it is healthcare absolutely.

And one into spaces that are affirming for them, you know, as kids. You know, so now that they don't have this affirming space have to go into spaces that are not affirming, they will further damage they're ment to you know, when are going to spaces being this gender and all of the other things that have you know, this is what we're talking about, just a safe, affirming place where you can access safe for farming health here.

I think it's worth expanding on that a little bit in the sense that like a space that's not affirming isn't like a neutral space. It's one that's actively hostile to you.

Absolutely that also.

Just sucks like it's hideous.

So it's just like they decided to inflict this on a bunch of children because they're mildly afraid, right.

They're afraid, and they're afraid of losing money. And there's no way to say that it's a neutral space, right, It's you're affirming or hostile, and that's the rest great. Kids can't come the doctor and feel safe at this point, and it's.

Like cascading issues too.

Right.

We've been talking about this a lot in like the context of someone like the Medicaid cuts, but it's like anything that deters people from going to the doctor, prevents them from going in for like other stuff that you know could be treated pretty easily. But then suddenly if it's like okay, well my hospitals now hostile space, people just like stop going in all together until something really serious happens. I could have been prevented. The hospital wasn't paying assholes to them, like.

You know, I think the fear is what we're going to see as the side effects or the consequences of this. You know, we've been told by our supervisors or management at UPMC that we should expect an influx of suicidal teenagers or young adults. Teenagers were struggling with greater symptoms of depression or even psychosis, like acute psychotic symptoms are a studied side effect of abruptly.

Coming off your hormone.

So not only do you now have these teens inting all who will be scared to access their care feel like they can't use their name, their pronouns, get the care that they need, but they're struggling with mental health crises that are due to the changes that we're seeing due to the withdrawal of their health care.

So you're seeing this in so.

Many different aspects hitting them and then the providers in this hospital system, and I'm sure we're seeing this all over the country. The providers are here to pick up what's happening. That's a decision based on administrative opinions. And like we said before, fear.

So that was shure.

A hospital admin told you that that was what was going to happen.

So basically after this went into place, I work in a suicide prevention clinic, so we were told by the people that we work with to be ready and stad start having meetings and having discussions around how to better support these kids, knowing that through research we've found that coming off of hormones can cause.

Increased risk of suicial thought, psychosis, and depression.

Sure as fuck does that.

Yes, And so it's like physical side effects, but also if you're forced to detransition, you're going to be physically unsafe in a space where you're no longer maybe passing or you're no longer able to be yourself, so you're a greater risk of harassment and bullying, which then in turn can cause higher risks of suicidal thoughts.

It's just like so hideous that there's people like you in the hospital system who can just tell them that this is going to happen, and they're doing it anyways.

It's hard because it's coming down so many layers, right, So we're hearing it maybe from our direct management, whose hearts are in the best place. They didn't make these decisions, but where they're being told to follow upper management who are making these decisions. And yes, because they work in the hospital, they know the implications of it. But the fear is outweighing the risks, and that's what we're trying to fight against.

The lightest possible response that I have to this as I'm thinking about that Lord Farquott line from Shrek where he goes, some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

It's like these house relignments are literally doing that.

They're like, yeah, no, some of these kids may die, but like whatever, that's fine. I don't have to deal with like maybe a lawsuit in like three years.

But they will absolutely still have to deal with lawsuits.

Yep, yep.

At the end of the day, these are people's basic human rights at the hundred of the times, So there will be lawsuits that happened because of that. Again, what the president did was not flaw at all, what somever. It was just directed to say, hey, this is something that we should do. This is not nothing that he can actually put into law. So what they're doing is off the end of the fans are sufficient to see what they can't get away with and what they can't

Yeah, they're just testing, right, This is a test to see what else they can get away with.

Absolutely, this is the test, and they're failing miserably. And instead of fighting them back, you want to fight us back. Instead of standing up and saying we're not going to do this, because it's not going to stop transcape this and never stop with transpit at all whatsoever.

It starts with transit.

And DTA makes a good point I mean, I know, Mia, you aren't based out of Pennsylvania, but in Pennsylvania, gender farming care remains legal from a state level, and the city of Pittsburgh, which we are located in, has been working really hard to protect trans youth. So the executive order that was put in place by Trump one is not a federal law and two is not at all supported by state or citywide laws.

So from a legal standpoint, you know.

Which we've learned from consulting with people like Dana who have been doing this work much longer than we have. We've talked with our local ACLU and other government organizations that this would not hold up in court. So you know, that's why the fight I think is starting here and hoping to get bigger.

Yeah, a lot of the way this administration does stuff is just by like writing it down on paper and then hoping that they can just sort of shock and awe terror people into complying. But like, if you don't comply, they can't make you like it's you know, I mean, this is only so this is only you've seen across issue areas, right, Like if people don't comply with ice agents, it suddenly becomes incredibly hard for them to just like

But if you give up, then yeah, it's really easy.

Right right, there's giving up before the fight really starts. Yeah, at some level of this, this is what they want. They're okay with it.

You know.

The dogs don't really matter, Like, no, it doesn't matter which way it goes. Did we really want to fight it now? We don't want to, mister slog. Group of people's we're not able to fight it. And if they fight it and they win, then we'll give it back whatever I can add. Armies of lawyers you can see, has armies of lawyers that can really go.

And really attack this from all different angles.

Bring in community ad kids, bring together all these you know the one that's lot project atm you all these different folks that come in with them and really hammer it to this administration. But they choose to not do that and choose to be complicit in the bull crap.

Yeah, one hundred percent. Okay, So we unfortunately need to go to ads. When we come back, we will talk about how we're going to fight back. Yeah, it'll be great. We are back so remarkably quickly after this stuff all started. There's a pretty large protest, like outside of the hospital to get them to stop doing this. Can you talk about how this all sort of started to come together and how these efforts got organized.

So I started hearing rumbles about this in December and in January. You know, once we got it into office and things, you know, immediately he's signed DI exxective or I think like a little bit after that, and by April we started activating and figuring out what we wanted to do because UPMC had made that first directive to not accept anymore on trans youth at all, whatsoever you think young adults, anyone under the age of nineteen.

So we did our first action in April.

May start following up getting information out to disseminate their right information out to community members, and doing all of the behind the scenes work connecting folks to the necessary resources that they need, so we could, you know, start fighting back at UPMC.

Loan behold to us.

DINA and Trans Uniting have been doing a lot of work to kind of set the stage for us to get involved, which is really awesome. We were made aware of what's going on with UPMC well after you know, DNA and some of the community members have been so I believe.

It was earlier June, maybe end of May.

Some of my really amazing coworkers and I decided, you know, we can't really just sit back and do nothing. And I think at the clinic I work in, there was a big feeling of helplessness.

You know, what can we do?

How do we fight back on our bosses? You know, we were feeling stuck, and we are a suicide prevention clinic. We're not specifically a gender clinic, but because we know that there's a hard proportion of trains and gay youth who are at risk of suicide in the general population, we work with a lot of trans youth. So we were seeing this impact us directly in the sense of the work that we do. So some of my coworkers wrote a letter to UPMC explaining the way that we're

We work it.

It's amazing.

It's amazing.

Yes, and while this letter was being drafted, some of my coworks met with consultants through the ACLU and other local organizations to one make sure what we were doing was okay, that we were not jeopardizing too much of our own safety as far as employment goes, but also to get their opinions and start to rally organizations. So the ACLU is to put us in touch with Dina

Sure, I just want to say this is what aw I shouldst like, you know, acomplases in the fight against this you know, heinous crime, because this is exactly what it is.

You know, it's been attack on trans labs.

But we broke a lot of folks together, community members, politicians, and workers from the UPMC all together. We had about three hundred and some folks that showed up when we were on the steps of UPMC's headquarters in downtown Pittsburgh.

And that happens then what meana?

So that was kind of what happened with that situation, and it was amazing, you know, everybody was amazing.

But I just you know, definitely want to shout out to.

Lena and the whole team because listen, we need more accomplices like that, and it's by you know, we are a small but mighty community, and we will not be able to get the things done that needs to be done to protect not just us, but all of us if we're not all united.

Yeah, thank you, Dan, I mean, we couldn't do it.

I thought you guys and the power you've got and the beautiful voices that you bring to the fight, it's truly awesome.

I think one of the things that we're seeing from this, and you know that we've seen from all of the anti trans repression is that like, on the one hand, yeah, trans people are like one and a half percent of the population, and we're disproportionately like the most broke and fucked up percentage of that population.

And also we are significantly better organizers like prison for person than all of the people fighting us. It's like, yeah, like they have unbelievable amounts of resources, however, Comma, we are really good at like this specific.

Thing of organizing and fighting back.

And yeah, well sadly, like trans people have had to fight for so long learned to do it, and their loved ones man, like they were there when we were at the rally a couple of weeks ago, I had parents of trans kids hugging me, you know, like they show up and they fight for their people, and it's really empowering.

We don't have that cholice fun to do that, you know, we don't have that cholices about the show. We don't have that cholice about to fight because we had to all of our lives in order to you know, continue to walk in our true you know.

Yeah, And like I mean, you know, I could talk about sort of the structural factors that make that true, but there's also just if you're going to be trends, at some point you have to choose to accept it, and like the fact that it's an identity that like you have to make a choice to be like I'm gonna fucking do this and like, Okay, I am this person that I've always known that I am, etcetera, et cetera.

Looking at both of those things, I guess one of the coolest reactions we're seeing is a lot of people coming out in solidarity who work at the hospital system, So the people who originally wrote the letter, who were part of this rally. We are trying to organize more community meetings, more town halls, contacting people through email, and Dina has been very involved in that along with side

The hospital who are here and want to show up. You know, we're seeing.

Physicians, social workers UPMC is also, of course a massive insurance conglomerate, and we're seeing people who work in the insurance side of things come out to support this so that's been really amazing as far as what things are

Of course, there is some fear of will that be stripped away.

You know, we actually saw not that long ago, I think was only last week that you know, Ohio they built into their state budget that Medicaid can no longer cover quote unquote transffirming therapy.

So this isn't.

Even puberty blockers, it's not hormones, it's talk therapy.

And what will that mean?

You know, we hope that we're protected here in Pennsylvania, but there's always resks that this can come into place at a federal level. So these talking points that they're sticking to, it's not too black and white as they're presenting it. You know, they're not abiding with any certain law. We don't know that therapy is protected, but that's what's kind of they're sticking to.

And that's just what's repeatedly being.

Stated throughout various press contacts that are being made through the hospital.

They're doing whatever the fuck they want to do.

Yeah, to put it lightly, yes, yeah, this.

Is what's happening, and we just have to continue to fight because they want to take us back to the nineteen fifties and that's not going to happen.

That's not going to happen.

And alsoever, it's Saint nineteen fifty, this is twenty twenty five, and you can.

Take away all you want to. We're going to fight and we're going to put it back at place.

A lot of times it is so much harder to take things away and try to get them back. But you know, unfortunately we're here and a lot of Americans didn't think that we would be in this predicament and it's not going to get nothing but worse. So hopefully it opens up people's eyes and we have to unite as a people.

That's it. That's it.

That's all around all of these issues. There's so much happening, so much being thrown on us at one time. But we have to unite as minority people or we will be in a place like nineteen fifties, because I mean we're abought to be in a great depression.

By January, we will be in a great depression. Everybody, get ready? Hope you got your CAG good?

Yeah?

Well, And I think there's there's another element of this too, which is like you can look at them doing a like, oh, we're just following orders thing, but there's no actual orders, which makes it even more pathetic than like the original words just following orders people, which again, and I want to note this, just following orders did not prevent you from being tried at Nuremberg, Like that was found to not be a defense, so like right, remembering of where

The thing about the Nazis was that, like Nazi Germany, people wanted.

They were imutified.

Yeah, like at least to something extent. They were able to smash, like, you know, they were able to sort of wipe out everyone who was opposing them, but like significant portions of the population wanted all of that shit

Nothing, nothing, bugle crap. But again, we just have to band together. I think folks still in a sense they're in that mind frame of twenty twenty four. It's like this is not twenty twenty four at all whatsoever. And if you don't get with it, I don't know. Yeah, but we're going to continue to fight. That's not going

But as much as we can do, we will do.

Yeah.

And I think that also raises a question for people listening to the show, which is that what can people do to put pressure on this hospital or their local hospital to do this and how can people sort of help the effort to get UPMC to fucking give kids their health care?

Absolutely, So what they can do is they can go visit trends upg dot org. They can sign a petition that we have up, you can donate to the fund that we have gone currently. Locally, what they can do is, you know, work with their borough or city councils to create legislation to protect trans kids and use young adults

Laws in place at all whatsoever.

So now we have to take that and we have to make laws in each state protect not just trans you think of adults, blood trans individuals and any minority groups that are being attacked by this Orange Man's regime.

Yeah, it's a lot of railing together and I think what we've seen here is amazingly we were all able to come together as a community and fight, and I think reaching out to your local organizations. I mean, if every city had a Dina Stanley, they would be in a much better position to fight this fight. But you know, working together with the people who know how to organize and fight, but also not be afraid to get your

I think it's be loud. It's not stop.

I believe that hospital is just waiting for everybody to quiet down. But we're only going to get louder because these taper plans just started for the youth, teens and young adults. They're still on their medications, and the further way that gets, the louder we're going to be because the risk is really going to increase as the months go on.

Absolutely, so don't stop. Be loud all the time. The accomplices in this fite because no matter what, and know that your next, so you can either join in, you can wait for your turn, and by that time maybe too late and there won't be no one to be able to stand up the light.

Yeah. And I thing I've been saying on the show a lot is it's not even just that after they come for us, they're going to come for you. It's that in order to come for us, they are going through you first. Like that's what this whole administration has been. They are willing to destroy the entire global economy. They're willing to turn the US into a police state. They are willing to again just grab people off the street in order to destroy very very small groups of people.

It's just that people have to understand that. You know that we are targets, and I understand what is actually happening. Right, These are tacked on trans folks. It's not about trans individuals. It's about autonomy of a women's body. The tacks over immigrants, it's not about the immigrants. It's about citizens ships for black and brown people that have it, you know what I mean. So this is again, it's just about having

Have what you did?

The stand up now, the fight we're having with UPNC, I mean, of course it's important. It's this is my employer, this is where I live. But it is just a small fight in the broader scheme of the fights we have. And you know, this brings up a good point of we fight for trans use because of what might come next, but it's already coming.

Right.

We have a lot of people of color who are already schedule leave the country because they don't know if they'll be allowed back in with their passports.

At US.

We have you know, women who are no longer able to access abortion care or reproductive care in many places in this country. I mean, it's not if it's going to happen, it's when, and it already is. So the more we fight in the louder we can be for the people who are hit the most, the more likely that this fight will drag on and hit them, so less fights can start in the future.

But it's happening. We're seeing it everywhere.

Yeah, I think that's an amazing place to end. Thank you to both so much for coming on and for fighting this fight.

Absolutely, thank you for having us.

I think it's really awesome to get the platform to show what we're doing and hope people, hopefully people will feel less scared. Right, there's power in numbers, There's power and solidarity. The more people we have fighting along us, the easier it gets to fight.

The power is the people, and we are the people.

I am incredibly looking forward to talking to you, to you again, will be fucking win this.

So I love everybody.

That's gonna be great.

Champagne over the microphone.

Oh this is it could happen here A show about things falling apart.

I'm Garrison Davis.

Today we're talking about movies, one of my favorite topics that I never get to talk about on the show. But I'm able to talk about it this week because I've found a way to talk about how movies are covering the death of woke and to help me in this doomed endeavor, I have recruited artists and designer Bailey new poster Welcome.

Hi, It's lovely to be here.

Bailey also is behind the new Top Cup City show Art which will eventually go public, maybe in a few weeks whenever I finally finished that episode, so keep pounding me about it. So we're going to talk about two films that came out this past July, Superman and Eddington, which I think are actually very closely related despite being very different from each other. I believe they're kind of

They have a.

Sort of like gestural politics, and I think they're both reactions to a conflicting view of American decline. Both have surprised Tucker Carlson appearances, and both have failed cancer relations. There's a lot of overlap in some of the plot points of this film, and I think what they're actually kind of saying about current American culture, current American politics,

It's nice to see it like represented, I guess on on a blockbuster film, like that's what it feels like.

It felt like nice to see it.

You know, it's like an acknowledgment of the atrocities happening. Yes, Like essentially a Benjamin net and Yaho stand in is basically like the secondary villain of the film. And at this point, I guess we'll just have to talk about hashtag spoilers. If you haven't seen these and you want to, you can. You can go see them. If you're okay with hearing us talk about it, and that might make

Yeah, I think the falafel car guy is the one. Yeah, that's crazy.

Les Luthor executes a falafel card owner. And I'll talk about more about how the film like riffs on Palestine in a bed. There's other aspects I think of how Superman is reacting to what James Gunn sees as like American decline, because I think Superman as a film is kind of a partially vapid take on like the corruption of sincere positive futures and like the loss of hope. It honestly feels very like Biden twenty twenty. It's like

I want to pick up my girlfriend today and be happy when I'm around her.

Yeah, So that feels a little odd, but like, I guess it's good that people can feel like Superman when they're doing good things, helping an old lady cross the street or whatever. I think that aspect of like decline. I sympathize with this, this like loss of like positive masculinity, and I think a Superman can be as simple for that for for new people who are addicted to watching like sneak O or whatever. Yeah, I think that's probably good.

He shouldn't be canceled, and the people canceling him were monkeys at typewriters.

And which way, honestly that that part is true. Yeah, people try to cancel James Gun were monkeys and gone typewriters.

I thought that bit was great.

I thought that bit was very I was like, that's very like one panel gag in a comic, which is, you know, wonderful.

Very The movie felt very great.

Morrison, Totally, those are the aspects that I really like.

Yeah, totally.

Staying on the political subject, I think you could draw a very good analogy between this and or Not.

Just this feels like this year's Barbie, if that makes sense.

Sure, like the kind of like corporate political not girls get it done this time. Obviously, this is like more of like anti not even anti toxic masculinity. I think it's just pro this form of masculinity, which I think is more productive. Yeah, but I also think, yeah, there's like neolib stuff going on. And also the fact that the movie, because it's a blockbuster can't properly handle anything like it kind of has to just leave everything at the road.

Yeah, on the side of the road by the end of it. Yeah, I don't know.

This is very much similar to Barbie, in which I kind of had the same reaction to. It's like they're like o K movies, But I find the political posturing actually slightly insulting in a certain way based on how shallow it is. And I'm gonna I'm going to actually get into that more on Superman here, I've seen people talking about how like emotional they got during the scenes, like very evocative of the palestinding a genocide, like the people like, you know, crying and tearing up and feeling

It keeps us.

Operating on its terms. We need cinema that ruptures familiar

I also think that the whole like indended to empire thing. I think this is like the case in point example of that considering Superman is literally a symbol of American values.

Or certainly has like become that, and like, yeah, you know, had a more positive version of that in some ways during his like birth in World War Two as a way as like a symbol of like Nazi resistance, but now is you know, very much turned into like truth justice in the American way, to the point where a lot of his you know, like immigrant aspects have been have been kind of undercut in the in the past, in the past few years.

Yeah, I saw an article I didn't actually end up fully reading because it was on the I forgot what it was then the Washington Post or maybe it was the New York Times where it was it was like blocked or.

Something, one of the big two. Yeah.

Yeah, it was an author who I think was an immigrant, and it was like talking about how Superman undercuts the the immigrant experience and that he is like literally born on the planet anyway, so it's not really like an it's not necessarily and he doesn't go through any like cultural conflict.

I guess, you know, totally.

I also wondered about, well, you know, I g I guess it doesn't.

I guess it doesn't.

I was gonna I was gonna think about the taking the immigrant aspect and then talking about one of the main parts of the movie, which was his parents are like you need to go and make a harem on Earth or whatever, is sort of interesting.

Yes, the aspect that his immigrant background has been very corrupted in this film, Like there's like a certainly like foreign evilness associating with Superman.

Now, yeah, you're an immigrant, and like that's good, and that's great and very American, but you shouldn't be what your parents were, your like foreign parents because they wanted a harem of lovers and to like conquer the West or whatever. Yeah, which, you know, considering the fact that this was written during the Russia Ukraine thing and not mainly during the Israel Palestine thing, I don't know if that's like because that's in the movie.

I have to think about it, you know.

Yeah, I don't think James Gunn was conceptualizing of that when he wrote it.

I think it's an unfortunate product of what happened aesthetically, but it's not that big of a deal, but it is weird, like it's something to think about.

That effect did not bother me as much as it did like for some other people. For my overall thoughts in the film, I think it's basically as good as every other James Gun film, which frankly just is not my cup of tea. I've never really loved the Guardians films. I don't think James Gun's a very compelling filmmaker. I thought it was just fine. It definitely felt like episode thirteen of a TV show that doesn't exist, which as

All right, we're back, So I.

Would like to now talk about Eddington for the rest of the episode. Essentially, But like I said before, Eddington is the equal and opposite of Superman. Both are both are very contemporary, very online. Both their politics, gesture and I think they're they're reactionary, but they're specifically reactionary in very different ways. I think they're they're reacting to two very different types of decline in America, or like perceived decline in America. So Eddington is directed by Ariastor, who

But well, it's entirely about aesthetics.

It's about absolutely yeah, who looks like a pedophile to me?

And it's the gay person.

Ascetisize politics rights, which is huge on I think political extremism in general, politics start developing more aestheticized forms. You know, this is true among anarchists, and I think fascism more more purely, I think is actually like politics asceticize to the point we're aesthetisizing, you know, like like people and like culture and like race, right, Like that is a whole a way different version than you know, like crust punks or like yeah, like like you know black Bloc.

Did you see the uh? I don't remember what the account was. There was like something of defense tweeted like some AI like from one of those like mill military fiction like accounts or something. And it was like a picture of like a white dude holding like a fucked up looking m for because it was AI generated and he's got like a bald eagle.

On his head.

No, but that sounds great.

It got tweeted today.

It's like the fucking lamest thing I've ever seen, and like I just don't even know, like not only the fact that he's like obviously he's using a photo of somebody else, but it's not even a real picture of anybody.

It's like a fake image of somebody that somebody.

Else made, like that he got off of like one of those like gun larp aesthetic accounts.

I just found that very interesting.

I don't know, Bailey, what did you think of Eddington?

I adored it. I loved it.

The moment that I knew that I was going to enjoy it was probably where it's revealed the energy plant is called perfect Gold, Magic carp or whatever, which is like so funny, like all those AI guys making all their products, like they're calling it Sourn's Eye or whatever.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so good.

But I adored it. I think I think that Waking Phoenix is wonderful in it. He's a great actor. I think Ari Astor is like one of the few directors that can perfectly slot him into this like just neurotic, impotent man role, you.

Know, very impotent. Ye.

Yes.

So the scene that I really like that I think about probably the most, or the character I think of probably the most, is the homeless guy. Yeah, the homeless guy who wanders into the film and is the you know, he's this a stranger walks into a strange town like opening of the film, and then all of the scenes where he's like he kind of bothers everybody, like he's you know, like in Gavin Newsom's like anti homeless policies. You know, it's a it's a very bipartisan. We have

Yes, I think this is really crucial that when when the sheriff starts his murder rampage, the first expression of violence that he feels personally justified in doing or feels Catharsis isn't doing, isn't isn't like the fake woke mayor. It's not Antifa. It's the homeless guy that is the first target of acceptable violence in the mind of the sheriff. And I think that is a very accurate look at American politics, and that's not something I've seen discussed very much in relation to the film.

No, and I in a way, he's still impotent after that, He's like he's he's not even enacting.

I wouldn't even label that as political violence.

I just labeled that as violence, right, Like earlier in the movie, all the like teen woke protesters are like sitting out in the street, and the homeless guy's kind of just standing and like he's like, hey, man, I don't have any money. Like he's not even asking for anything. Yeah, he's just kind of standing there and making them all uncomfortable.

You know.

He is he is the specter of the other wandering into this town and then everybody has to like and he's like the you know, the beginning of conflict. You know, yeah, they're they're like the easiest group to other is the homeless and the mentally unwell.

No.

I think that that part of the film works really well. And I guess this film has received a mixed reaction, which I talk a little bit about with with Jane, which you'll you'll hear in a sec. And I guess I'll start by talking about how I believe Eddington works

The intro to him, I guess it's the second it's the second time you see him. But he's at the he's at the party or whatever.

Uh, and like he.

Gives kind of an opinion to this girl that he has a crush on. They're talking about like, you know, whiteness and like privilege and stuff like that, and he class. Yeah, and class is the really like because clearly he I think I think he's supposed to kind of be like a lower class like character that then yeah, jumps up the ranks through political opportunism, right yeah, but yeah, he brings up class and is immediately shut down.

And Google's Angela Davis seconds before, but only but only so that he can flirt with a girl more effectively, which is very funny.

Incredible, It's so good.

Other small bits like that. I really enjoyed that. The like fake woke Mayor who's actually just like a tech company shill has he him pronouns on his zoom profile.

Ye, very very funny to me.

There are so many little things in this movie.

It's a lot of little stuff. Yeah, and like very obviously this was a film that Ariasta wrote well, like way too online during twenty twenty, like he was in specifically Twitter, right, this is an extremely Twitter movie, which is both works for the movie and sometimes works against the movie. I have no idea how this film is gonna age. Maybe it'll age very well because we'll use it as like a cultural artifact to like look back on and be like, yeah, that's kind of what twenty twenty felt like.

In a couple of years, we're all going to be looking back on it and saying, how dare they made fun of our new currency, crypto, our new bitcoins.

Everybody has bitcoins.

All of the bitcoin stuff is really good, like I do.

Also, I like that they gave the I don't remember his name, the black police officer, who's like kind of another like main through line for the movie. Yeah, but he his only other thing is that he's really into crypto.

He's so funny, so good.

If anything, I think Eddington is really good at showcasing types of guy. There's so many like type of guys in this film, and I think that's one of the

Yeah, yeah, we have the wayfarar pedophile closets.

Totally Q went on cults, child trafficking.

Yeah, So I watched the movie Network like for four days before.

I watched this.

I need to see networks. Oh my god, Robert's been trying to get me to watch it for years. I just have never found the time. I guess I don't know ari.

Astro like explicitly brought up Network and staid like he was thinking about it while making this movie, but that he.

Wanted it to be more.

The Network is definitely more like it tells you what it means, sure kind of thing, and like what it thinks is the right way to do things.

And this film purposely does not get into that too much. It lets its own depiction tell you.

It doesn't.

It doesn't like stop you and explain whatever, like you know, like what its politics are. I think the movie does the politics.

Yes, but I also I thought in comparing it to Network, which I will try my hard it's not to spoil the Network, but there is definitely a theme in this and in the Network of like forces above, this movie is about political puppets about like non political actors, right walkin Phoenix's character talks about how like he's not for the government, he's for the people kind of thing. So

His mother in law, mother in law, ex mother in law.

It's just incredible, one of the most horrifying concepts. But this movie is about like, yeah, a bunch of stuff happens, like stuff that's like they're trying to kind of throw off the balance.

Yeah, people are trying to make political change while dealing with this problem that politics is both very real, it's physical, it determines almost everything about our lives, but it's also very vague and nebulous and removed. So like, how do you exert agency over something that is both real and non real? To be a political actor, do you have

Yeah, but the corporation's the big money people whoever's like in the background, right the the plane with the giant hand holding the globe.

And the Antifa globe jet.

Yeah, yeah, the the So Okay, here's a question because because when I watched it, I thought that it was it's like paid actors, right, Like they're paid like a paid Colson group.

That's what that's what I write it as.

I think it's left for audience interpretation whether whether or not this is like the George Soros funded Antifa, like Specop's crew, who are genuine about their beliefs, or if they're like a false flag crew who's just going around so in chaos to promote like political discord, but not for like ideological reasons, like just just through like false

On their private chat, smoking big cigars, getting air dropped into into small towns to go exactly blow things up.

Is like exactly, so funny of Antifa are coming in.

Yeah, And then that leads into what I think is the best joke in the movie, the TikTok zoomer guy shooting while holding his phone and then like it cuts immediately into like a now this uh like TikTok about the antifas.

Like militia time is and then.

He's like a hype guy and he's got like a podcast where he's talking about if Michelle Obama's gonna run for president or whatever, like so good, what do you what do you think of kind of the the semi cliffhanger conclusion of some of the threads.

I guess, hmmm, because and.

I'm only thinking about this as a cliffhanger because he's talked about it him making a sequel, if that makes sense, Yeah.

Like a like a loose sequel, Yeah.

Yeah, with like some of the same characters.

I guess.

I don't know.

I have felt pretty satisfied with how this wrapped up, because I mean, twenty twenty did not have a real ending. We are still living in the shadow of twenty twenty. There's still is loose threads, like COVID still is a thing that exists. We're still living with, like the way political violence escalated and never fully went away with, especially like January sixth, and how even the concept of pedophilia still runs almost all of politics. Like this is what

It's what your mom does.

It's what like your mom, or like your every one of your parents.

Does, and not just your right wing mom. Now, like this is like everybody's mom.

Yeah.

And I think that's the sort of American decline that ori Astra is depicting, as opposed to the type that James Gut is depicting. I think it's much more accurate, I agree, And it's much more holistic.

Yes, I don't think you could.

I obviously, I don't think you could kind of really hold the schizophrenia that the post twenty twenty post lockdown political schizophrenia that we exist and currently I agree, where like everything is ungrounded.

You know, you can't do a superhero story like that. I don't think there's like no way to do that.

No, unless you use my favorite superhero, the question Yes, in which you could do that and James Gutt if you're listening, I will write to a question film and

Yeah, I think structure wise, a lot of people were talking about like it feels like too scattered of a movie. I think I saw that a lot, and like the critiques of it, and I think, like, sure, if we're talking about like just you know, does it become a little confusing to follow. Maybe, but it's like that's the point, like and not to say like that's the point, so it watches that away. But like, I don't think you can. I don't think you can make a movie accurately.

You can't make a movie about that era without it feeling scattered like that.

Yeah, that's why I really respect ori Astor.

I think I was talking to my partner yesterday about who's the guy that made like.

Nosferatu and all those movies. Robert Eggers.

Robert Eggers very good filmmaker, but he's explicitly talked about how he doesn't.

Ever want to do modern films.

Yeah, a modern film, I guess. I haven't seen The Crouds, but I've heard very good things about it.

Me neither me neither.

Yeah, I want to see that movie.

Because I think Cronenberg is another one who's like I also want. I watched so great lineup for this movie. I watched Corningberg's What's the Video Drome?

Recently?

That did I can definitely see Eddington kind of being a grandchild of video drone in some ways.

I would also recommend. I've also I've been reading Mark Fisher's Flat Line Constructs.

This is a very Fisher movie.

Yeah, very Fisher.

Yeah.

I literally I listened to the stupid Russell Brand audio Book of Capitalists.

No, oh, that sucks.

I know Russell Brand sucks, but I was at work and I just needed something to listen to. So I didn't like blow my head off, and it didn't end up working out actually because I was working my shitty job and listening.

To capitalist Brandy Russell Brand, Russell Brands Capitalist Realism.

Oh God, what a bummer.

Yeah, truly, Mark Fisher is only l Yeah.

It is unbearable to have to listen to his voice, but it's a great book. I would definitely recommend reading that if he want to go into Eddington even more like Locked In, I guess, but this is a very like yeah, like you know, capital can convert anything into the image of something else. There was one shot that I really I found very evocative, which was the shot of like him walking Phoenix's characters having his haircut by his whatever stepmom ex stepmom, and she's talking about like

Like, yeah, no, there's there's a little bit of like Butdriard's book on America here, there's certainly a lot of ged Aboard in this, and I think that also was part of what relates it to me to Superman is how much like Superman is accidentally doing geed aboard regarding the genocide and Palestine, and how much I think that critique is actually built into Eddington.

No.

Absolutely, yeah, I I Superman is such an an interesting movie to take on that subject because obviously, in a way you're kind of like, well, good for James Gunn for doing something daring.

I guess daring, I say with air quotes.

But it's also like you have the Israel Palestine stuff placed right after a scene where Superman saves a green baby from a river of like cosmic sludge.

Of like CGI squares.

Yeah, which, by the way, I'm sure I don't know if this is the general consensus, but I thought that that scene was ugliest sin and I kind of hated it.

Also, I hated the whole Pocket dimension. Yeah, aspect. I don't know why they didn't do a quick like ten minute interlude into the phantom zone keep hit that. But no, I think that that whole Pocket Dimension like forty minutes like derailed and stagnated a lot of the film for me and did not look very good.

He's doing like Lex Luthor's Peter Thiel, Lex Luthor is Elon Musk Lex Luthor's, which could work. Yeah, yeah, which I think. I think I found it funny at least I said, like totally. I watched it and I thought like, oh, I know what he's doing. You know that he's Peter Thiel, shut down Gawker or.

Whatever, crying men baby.

Yeah.

Yeah, so it's like I get it, But I also, I mean, it's been done before, kind of thing, like I don't find it, you know that I don't know, but he Hey, his performance is great, But then the whole Palestine stuff is also capped off with a scene where lesh Luthor gets like bullied by a dog. You know, it's sandwiched between two things that are just like I don't know if you can do this or if you should do this, Like I don't know, No.

It is.

I think it's it's part of that sort of cultural schizophrenia that I think that Eddington is pulling on. Yeah is moments like that in the David Zaslov Winner Brothers, Discovery, Superman twenty twenty five.

And Eddington just is.

You know, it's a film that is like its entire thesis is that is the yeah is, the jumping around the just ret like his car is covered in shit for the entire movie.

I love it so funny.

All the all the slogans are like kind of like they're all trying to put in their own little thing, you know, Like he's like, can we make it about bitcoin?

Can we make it about.

It's like a twenty twenty conservative Facebook feed brought to life.

Yes, Yes, it's a great movie. I love Eddingson. I think that this movie will age very well.

Well, what would you like to plug Bailey new poster?

I think you should follow me If you have an X you should follow me.

On at what is it called at New Poster two on x.

If you're on Instagram, you should follow me at postalytical Bling, which is a terrible username, but I made.

It's my writing user name, like ages ago, I think.

And then on Blue Sky, if you use that, you should follow me it what even is michaelue Sky?

I don't even use I'm gonna be honest, I don't use blues guy.

But if you if we got to fix the vibes on there, baby, we we got it, we got we got we got to get more like crazy crazy unhinged art on Blue Start all.

Right, Uh, it's it's New Poster Dot, Bluesky dot social or whatever.

So there you go if you need that. There, there's the there's the plugs.

Well, thank you for coming on to talk about Eddington and Superman.

Thank you so much for inviting me. This has been wonderful.

I love Eddington, I enjoyed Superman, so this is a good talk.

There you go, Lovely Lovely. For the last segment of our post Woke Cinema episode, I'm gonna play a conversation I had with Atlanta musician Janey Danger, who we talk about her thoughts on the film Eddington and the way it manifests twenty twenties hyperreality.

A little background.

I guess, like I really like ariost I remember talking with you about Bo's Afraid a while ago.

I remember you weren't a huge fan of it.

Not so hot.

I'm Bo's Afraid. I'm Afraid. I wanted to like it too, because whenever people talk about this like like like off putting, long slow cinema about like anxiety, like I want to like that, Like Illa Dumpayer is one of the best films. Ever, there's other other other films that do is that that that also tackle its not just like David Lynch. Yeah, and like the rest of ari Astor, I was always like lukewarm to kind of positive on Like, I don't hate him as a filmmaker. I don't have that as

I think he's kind of cool to hate now, Like I think with he's very cool to hate now people really like hating him.

But Eddington I think has done him a lot of favors though among the people who used to hate him.

I've kind of noticed that it seems like with Hereditary in Midsummer, those were generally like very well received by like the A twenty four crowd, and it was kind of like, I guess the cool opinion would be to be like those movies are mid and then like Bo Was Afraid as a masterpiece or whatever.

I like his horror movies.

I think they're slick, well made films with good stories. I love bo Was Afraid though, I think it's incredible, but it is not the kind of it's the kind of movie that, like, as much as I love it, as much as it means to me, as seen as I feel by that film, it's not the kind of thing that like, if you don't like it, I'm not gonna like convince you, you know, like there's probably like if you told me you didn't like Maholland Drive, like I'd be like, you're fucking stupid and wrong.

You're dumb if you tell me you don't like was.

Afraid, It's like fair enough, It's it's sure certainly the

And then maybe there would be like a cut.

Which is kind of what happens to bow Is Afraid.

Yeah, but in other movies there would maybe be like a cut away for someone else where they see like the character like arguing to a shadow like.

The quote unquote real perspective. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

And I think that bo Is Afraid it's like it's no, this is real, And I think Eddington does a very similar thing where the beliefs of the characters are real, and that's why like you know, all the conservatives, Like I mean, if you remember twenty twenty, they're like there's Antipho super soldiers that are going out and doing terrorism. It's like so in this world, in the Eddington universe, it's like what if that was real?

Like what if Fox.

News was actually in motion here? And I think that's very interesting.

The approach that he does in Eddington, I think is a little bit more subtle than the way there's in bos Afraid, because you start the film way way more as like a as like you know, a political satire on the absurdity of like pandemic era America, and then the reality starts diverting from what we can agree as

Yeah.

Like the first time I noticed this in the filmmaking was there was like a news clip about like a Portland riot in twenty twenty, and it had people like exchanging gunfire on rooftops and it was played next to actual news clips of like the Third Precinct burning down, like it was played off as like a real, legitimate news clip. Yeah, and like I was, I lived in Portland in twenty twenty. I know that's not real. But

That's even kind of like a meta in a sense, because it's like if you watch that that scene of like the footage of the Portland like shooting and stuff, and you as the audience or like questioning if that was real, then it's like your consensus reality is also diverging from the regular consensus reality. It's like it kind of makes you a cipher for the characters, which which also leads me to something something else. So something I

Dissimilarity of that character to like the Mom character, who does the same thing but is seen in a very different way. Yeah, because of a house, she has like a home to live in and has like family.

Yeah, absolutely, And there's no there's no place for a person like the vagrant in this world, but there is a place for all these other types of insane people. And they're all able to find their little little niches and such, when maybe in a world before that and a world before it was so easy to find such niches, maybe like you would I don't know, go to therapy, maybe like maybe your.

Family would would be concerned.

It is very interesting because people very are are very prone now, and it's like that's because they're able to like get pulled into these cults. They find their own kind of Austin Butler figure who's able to talk to them directly and be like, no, come with me, you're okay, and just to go back to the point of like messages and stuff. I think that the uh, the Joaquin Phoenix character. I think he starts out as a very like uh like Hank Hill, like very I mean he

But he's like trying to kind of be like a reasonable guy.

Right, And I see him as someone who's trying to like avoid the messaging from everyone. Like even when people tell him about like certain news stories and stuff, he's like, I don't know, like he just doesn't know. And yeah, in the process of him like avoiding all these messages, what does he do. He buys a truck and covers it in fucking messages.

In messages he starts broadcasting his reality to everyone around him exactly.

It's like, I don't know, I think that normally, normally I would call it bad writing for like every character to be like a cipher. But I think what he does in this is is really really interesting. Like I think it's a I don't know, I guess, like one more thing that I really like, do want to say, is like Ari Astor did an interview with Will Minker and Hesse of like Chapo, and he said that he kind of wanted to make this movie like a Rorshack test of sorts, and I think he maybe overly succeeded

Stone got a little more meat to do things.

But aside from that, one of the biggest criticisms that I'm honestly just going to dismiss outright as people saying that this is like a centrist movie totally, or comparing this to South Park or something like that. And if you view this as a centrist movie, I mean, the liberals in this are like kind of annoying and effectual.

A lot of them don't really believe what they do. Some of them do.

I think the girl character is very sympathetic, but like the younger girl. But Joaquin Phoenix, the ostensible, like you know, right wing version of this, kills a child, like he kills three people, including like a teenager.

Like the woke characters engage with politics in a that but and self serving way to mask their own insecurities and shortcomings and for their own personal benefit. The right wing characters murder and have rape cults, and.

Yeah, right, Like I don't I don't see how you could look at the actions of the characters in this film and just be like, yeah, I guess everyone is stupid. I guess everyone is wrong because it's like no, like I mean, I guess everyone is a little stupid and everyone is kind of wrong about things. But like, that's not like what it's getting across. I think that's a very shallow read of the film.

This is what people outside of the Brooklyn theater were complaining about when I eavesdropped for like nearly forty five minutes after the film, just to hear what people were talking about. I love eavesdropping, I love snooping, So I was really feasting out there. And Yeah, a lot of people upset at how quote unquote little this film had

I think a lot of people are uncomfortable. I think some people just see too much of themselves, and like I was speaking specifically to like liberal audiences, I think a lot of them are seeing something of themselves and they feel like they're being made fun of and they don't appreciate that. I'll just say I was I was at the Black Lives Matter protests and stuff. I was there and I don't feel that way. No, I don't

Explains the exact type of communist that I am.

Right, Yes, I'm the exact kind of leftist you are.

We are on the same side and we're all laughing at the same things together.

It's like, no, and if if your engagement with like social justice and anti police brutality protests is shallow enough to feel called out in a film like this, I think that is cause more for self reflection and for while you participated in those things.

Yeah, I agree.

Not a fault of the film where it's not the film taking a stance against those things. I think it's it's showing there's certain types of people who who participated in an extremely performative and like self serving manner, and like specifically the way that like the main like like like zoomer guy character who in the end becomes a

Tweet googling Angela Davos.

So I think that kind of stuff is more what it's talking about. And when you have those types of people being some of the most vocal people at these events, it contributes to this like kind of psychosis and that I think that's what the film is is specifically saying.

I mean, did we forget that people like Sean King were like popular in twenty twenty. Look, if you see this and like the portrayal of like these liberal characters doesn't apply to you, I don't know why you're mad. I don't know why you would like look at that and be like, oh, they're making fun of me and everything. I believe because if it doesn't apply to you, then it doesn't apply to you. And that was how I watched the film, Like I didn't feel like any of these characters applied to me.

So I don't really care.

And I guess a final point is like I haven't heard anyone else say this, but like Sheriff Joe at the end of the film is I feel like it's very unsubtle symbolism to say that he's lobotomized.

With if Ice stabbed in the in the head with a knife.

That's what's happened to all of us in a way.

And I mean, it's funny that Ariastra avoided a lot of mother related trauma up until the very very end of the movie.

The very last he had to squeezed it in there.

I know, I know which it was, I know, and he's being like raised in the bed and this kind of like angelic like ascension kind of thing.

I don't know.

I think that it's I think it's a pretty unsubtle and funny way of saying that, like there's really for some people after going fully there in like being insane, after like just plunging yourself into the heart of all of this like chaos and unreality, that the only thing that is going to save you is a lobotomy, if nothing else. I think that's very funny. So yeah, I

Will this age well?

And I think it definitely has grown on me the more I've thought about it.

Same it has also grown me more over time. Once I got out of the theater, I was storting through a lot of different feelings about what I just saw and it has definitely grown me over time. Where can people find you and your work?

Yeah, so I'm a musician. You can go to Janie Danger dot com and find most of my links and stuff. I have a new song and video out. I'm working on a new album that should come out later this year. And if you're in the Atlanta area, I'm playing a show at the end of August at Bogs Social and the Mainline Music Festival in September. But if you follow me on like Instagram or whatever, you should have all your updates there and you can follow me on letterbox at Janey Danger.

So yeah, thanks for having me.

Thank you Jane.

That does it for us at it could happen here. Thanks once again to Jane Danger and Bailey new Poster. Follow them both online. They do great work. If you want some good music, listen to Jane. If you want some cool art, look up a Bailey new poster.

Hope.

I guess I will hopefully see you on the other side of this post Woke Nightmare, Bye Bye, Welcome to It could happen here a show about things falling apart, and today the thing falling apart is the Internet. And today we have a special guest episode with Bridget Todd.

Hello Bridget, So Garrett, it's kind of funny that we are talking just a few days after the Trump administration put out there Woke AI executive Order.

Yes, I have not read this yet. I have to for next week's executive Disorder. I'm not looking forward to it.

I liked that the Cool Zone team kind of sections off all the Trump federal nonsense so you don't have to be mired in it all the goddamn time.

I still kind of am. I just schedule it throughout my week. I guess there's certain days where I have to do it.

Yeah, you gotta pepper it in. You've got to pepper it in.

Well, yeah, not to give you a spoiler for when

Fantastic, you know, seems like the most important issue facing our nationent right now.

Definitely, definitely.

And so it's funny that we're talking about AI because I don't know if you're on TikTok, but there have been these kind of shockingly racist AI generated videos all over TikTok, to the point where I would say that we are witnessing the revival of the Minstrel Show using AI on social media. This is not a claim I used lightly. That is how extreme some of this content is.

I'm not on TikTok, but I think I've seen some of this content permeate across platforms, certainly on like Instagram reels and even even bits of X the everything app I love that you call it that that's the full name.

So for folks who don't know, I want to scround the conversation in what a minstrel show is. So the minstrel show was a incredibly popular form of American theater and entertainment in the nineteenth century, where mostly but not all, white performers would wear black face makeup to make themselves look like These exaggerated racist versions of black people and essentially portray very racist stereotypes of black folks being lazy buffoons.

And so, you know, the dominant.

Way that people consumed media regarding Black people showed us as lazy, stupid, angry, loud, and important, not really able to conform to the dominant culture of like mainstream, hardworking white Americans. That is obviously an incredibly powerful tool to uphold and reaffirm the idea that black folks should not be given full citizenship, should not be given full rights,

Well like, oh, well, you know.

I've seen in minstrel shows that black folks are very lazy and stupid, So it's an as for their own good that we treat them like shit in society, do you feel me?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a sort of like infantilization exactly.

And so even though the minstrel show did die out, I would argue that we are kind of seeing a little bit of a comeback using AI in the digital realm, and just like the minstrual shows of yesteryear were used to affirm political and social ideologies under the guise of just being in a payment or just being jokes or

That sounds not fun to hear about, but I'm excited for you to explain it to me.

Yes, So I will say, initially, the first iteration of one of these videos that I saw was not really racist. It was made by a black creator, I think, trying to use AI to create sort of humorous skits. But when that first video took off, people on TikTok started using AI to create more and more extreme, more and more racist iterations of these kinds of videos, which is what we're seeing today. So I will play a little

Part time cryptic, full time problem. Don't follow me if you scared a please.

So, but this is a TikTok that got over two million views, and it basically it uses AI to generate this black woman stereotypical version of Bigfoot, and this account is so popular that has generated so many copycats, Like this is a format that has really hit with TikTok.

There also is another kind of bucket of these.

That people call slave talk, where it uses AI to sort of reimagine enslaved people on plantations if they had social media and we're doing vlogs and so a lot of those videos were taken down by TikTok, which is I think good, but essentially it would reimagine these AI in generated enslaved people basically saying like, oh, well, yeah, I do have to work out here in the cotton fields,

One of the more heinous.

Examples that I saw of these that was removed from TikTok was a TikTok shop sponsored video that showed an AI generated enslaved person working in the fields wearing a solar powered hat with a sand in it, and basically he was like, Oh, this work in the field would be so horrible if I did not have this hat.

And then there's a little.

Link to the TikTok shop and you can buy the actual hat, which is just some really dystopian awful shit.

No, that is like quite literally, it's like evocative of like cyberpunk tropes that people I would assume would not want to use it due to fears of insensitivity, but it's just on your phone, like as like a real thing.

Yeah, I completely agree, and I love that comparison.

And I think, like I would imagine if I were running a TikTok shop that using.

The AI generated image of.

An enslaved person, I would think like, oh, well, this is certainly not something that I would use to like sell some cheap fan hat.

But I mean, I think it is exactly what you're saying that.

I think that the extreme quality of these videos, people are just like, well, it'll get views and then I'll get more eyeballs on my TikTok shop.

I don't think there's any kind of sure.

Yeah, no, it's a very gross way of doing like outrage farming. For engagement, I guess, like because surely they know that these are not going to like go over easy like. I think a part of part of this is generating some degree of like attention based on it being offensive or extremely gross and knowing that people will like comment things of that nature exactly.

And it's funny that you mentioned that, because the AI component of this is sort of what makes this novel and new. But that kind of thing has been all over social media for the longest time. Sure I remember how big stuff like skit culture was on TikTok. And I don't mean skits like Saturday Night Live or Portlandia. I mean skits where they are trying to get you to think this is somebody's cell phone footage of something that happened, but really it's like, well that those are

Who was the next video? Yes, exactly, exactly.

No, I like the ones that are set on airplanes where they all use the same airplane set. Yes, and they get into like fake fights on airplanes using the same like five actors playing different roles.

Yeah, and then if you look carefully in the background, you start thinking, well, airplanes don't have those strip led lights that you can buy on Amazon.

Does not actually the.

TikTok lights and the hallways like five feet wide.

Yeah, exactly, And listen, I am not above getting taken in by those kinds of skits. And I guess I don't love the idea that someone would be dedicating energy and brain space to getting upset about a set of circumstances that never really happened.

But it's the Internet. Come on, that's that's like, that's half of the Internet.

Yes, Like, you know, I don't love it.

But when the stakes so, like when the stakes are low and it's just like a random fight on an airplane, fine, when the stakes are higher and it's like, this is a skit meant to like attack or demonize trans people, queer people, black people, that's where I'm like, well, what are we really doing here?

I think whether or not this.

Kind of content, like when it's AI generated, we're looking

Or not, you know what I'm saying, Yeah, yeah, totally.

And when you actually go into the comments of these videos, which in my opinion are very clearly AI generated.

People are in the comments.

Well, I mean that easy for you to say. Someone who spends their time like researching what's going on and on the internet. I'm not sure if Mema and pop are finding these videos to be like, well, this one's obviously AI generated.

No, And that's my point is like I don't even think they're thinking about it that way, and I don't think they care that it's not real. In the comments of these videos, it'll be a video, an AI generated video of a black woman behaving in this very stereotypical racist way, and the comments will say they're all like that, and it kind of misses the point of like, well, there's there's no they in this video because it's AI generated.

This is just a computer puppet. This isn't real.

Like, yeah, I completely agree, But I think when you see something online, whether it's obviously AI generated or not, if it reaffirms your worldview, it kind of doesn't matter.

It's the same reason why when there's like.

Four legged veterans in AI slop holding a sign that says everyone forgot about me, wish me happy birthday.

Three billion likes on Facebook.

I mean, what do you think is going on there? I find that so fascinating.

Oh.

I mean, I'm not a psychologist, but I don't know. I think it isn't just the simple reaffirming of someone's previously held view people are very receptive to. And we even see this with like you know, with like fake news headlines, right, and people might point out that this story isn't isn't actually real. And when people are confronted with this idea of that they've been tricked by unreality, they'll be like, no, maybe this one isn't real, but

So I did an episode of my podcast or oar Norgles on the Internet all about the sort of weird economy of AI generated disinformation, essentially fan fiction that came out of the trial of Sean P.

Didy co.

Oh.

That sounds incredibly upsetting.

It was so upsetting, And the reason I looked into it is because I have to be honest and say, one of these AI generated videos got me.

Right.

It was a video that claimed that the late musician Prince was able to testify in Ditty's trial from the Beyond the Grave, and that they played a video that Prince made warning everybody that didty is this bad guy? Right? I am probably the world's biggest Prince fans. Well, I was like Prince always like. It got me and it totally affirmed what I want to be true.

But it was all a lie.

It's compelling, it's trying to like, it's trying to impact you emotionally, especially for people who who like Prince, who who miss miss Prince. This could be emotionally compelling, and like, that's that's what they're like intentionally going after. I think that's that's why something like that could work so well.

It got me.

And when I looked into kind of how these videos are cranked out on YouTube, so basically any celebrity that you can imagine. There is an AI generated video on YouTube saying that they were some how involved in the Didty trial. And what's so interesting is in the comments of these videos that are again pretty obviously AI generated or not real, and even the description of the YouTube account will say this is just for entertainment.

Nothing here is supposed to be true. People won't read that part.

Basically, if you've ever had a bad feeling about a celebrity, which who haven't totally see, there's a video that that affirms with that worldview that is like, well, did you know they were involved in the ditty frea comps?

And everybody's like, I knew it.

That person always gave me the ac can Fine, I knew it. I was smart enough to pick it up. Not everyone else was smart enough, but I was. And that's that's a whole other emotional feeling that it's being targeted by these like AI slop creators where they're trying to yeah, like affirm people's like like narcissism about their ability to judge the moral character of strangers.

That is so it because the people that celebrities they choose, it's people that maybe you would have like, I have no real reason for this, but I hate Kevin Hart and so in the videos, don't even.

Ask me why. I don't even have a real reason. I just don't like him. Well, he is short.

He is short.

There you go love to my short kings.

One of the reasons I don't like him.

This is just me speckel, Like, he just does a lot of ads and you can't get on social media without his cryptocurrency ad, his draft kings ad.

I just like hate seeing it. Sure in the AI.

Generated video claiming that he was mixed up in the Diddy Trials, every comment is like I knew it. I always hated him, And that's affirming. People like feeling like they knew something that other people didn't see, and they knew it early on.

Well, And I think what's something that's similar to this that's happening right now is there's a massive media campaign right now against Pedro Pascal with with AI generated videos of him like touching his female co stars. And these these videos have been have been digitally altered, and it's in service of this this big harassment campaign against someone who's like very vocally Protrance writes, there's other possible reasons

I knew it.

I never trusted Pedro Pascal, and I don't like it. He's pro trans writes, and you're like, there you go. They've completely got you. They've been able to like automate and monetize internet hate campaigns against people that you don't know.

Garrett, Literally, right before you and I got on this episode, I saw a video on Reddit and it's a scene from an episode of Always Sunny where one of the guys is like essentially lifting d the female lead up by her crotch, and the caption was Pedro Pascal when he feels anxiety. Next to me you got a co star, And I remember thinking, like, this is such a weird fucking video.

But what order of the Internet have I wandered into? But I didn't. I did not know that there are horses trying to make me get the ick about Pedro.

Pascal Coincidentally, he is someone who speaks up for LGBTQ rights, you know, progressive causes.

Of course, yeah, no, it's it's it's a it's a it's a huge thing sweeping the internet right now.

And I think it really goes to show how kind of easily we can be manipulated using digital content, whether it's AI generated or AI manipulated or not. Like our understandings of the sort of general temperature of what's going on are so so much more tenuous than we think, and so much more easily manipulated than we realize.

No, absolutely, no one is immune to propaganda. That is a great way of putting it.

I'm happy that you used the word propaganda, because that's what I really do think the AI generated essentially menstrual show videos are. I think it's not a surprise that we are seeing them the same way that back in the day menstrel shows were very popular at a time when there was an active campaign of attacking black folks and saying they weren't smart enough and did not deserve full citizenship, did not deserve rights, all of that.

I think we're basically seeing the same thing today.

I think the rise of popularity of this kind of content is against the backdrop of a very real attack

I don't know what to say there, but I agree, yes.

And I do think there's a kind of platform accountability question and all this.

Because oh, most certainly.

Yeah.

Like, the reason why we're seeing the rise of these videos is because of the recent introduction of Google's vo three creator. It came out about a month ago and it's Google's latest AI video generation model, and essentially it's designed to create these realistic looking videos from text prompts. And the thing that kind of makes it a step above is that you can incorporate things like synchronized audio, dialogue,

Oh, this is so upsetting.

It is.

And then like another kind of offshoot of this is you have people who use VO three to make content like this and they get tons of us and then they're like, oh, if you want to learn how to make this yourself, pay me and I'll teach you how to do it too.

So it's like there's always a weird.

Like MLM grift in there somewhere that is the content creator classic is like a mid tier influencer. We're not like that good at what they do, but is able to supplement their income by offering courses to people to teach them how to make similarly some subpar content. And it's interesting that we've reached the full AI automation aspect of this, right. This used to be a big thing

It makes me so sad, And I do think I mean when I guess I would be curious how Google feels about the fact that, like, this is what their tool is being used for.

Right.

I wonder like if leaders have a sense that this is harmful, not just harmful to black women like me who are depicted in this kind of content, but harmful for the Internet as a whole. It makes the Internet experience worse for everybody. And I guess, I guess I would imagine that like Google probably doesn't care that this

Yeah, And are you going to dedicate some like millions of dollars of research into stopping this from happening? No, of course not, Like they're not going to build comprehensive tools that prevent platform abuse like this, Like that's not going to happen as long as people are using it, and then people are hearing about it and it's spreading, like that's that's what they want. If if there happens to be offensive use cases of it, if anything, that's good because that drives engagement.

It gets people to know about the product.

And I think that's another one of the reasons why Trump's you know, executive orders on AI.

That we saw early AIY.

I mean, like, I will be the first person to admit that we have very deep problems when it comes to AI. Anybody who listens to Better offline knows this, Like the is not a secret.

AI is often biased.

AI is often wrong because it is trained on us humans the bias little bucks that we are right, and so that shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. I also will say, like, some of the solutions of how we fix that are complex and not super simple.

But what Trump's executive order, he.

Basically is signing an order saying all AI must be objective.

It must it must.

Adhere to the objective truth of the United States. And it's like, well, who determines that?

Who who determines the objective truth of the United States? The President?

I mean, if you ask Trump, yes, him and I guess that's the thing that pisses me off, is that there actually are complex issues and problems when it comes to AI, but this executive order just is like, Oh, the problem is is that it's woke. The solution is me signing an executive order saying no woke in AI, and rather than getting any kind of actual solution or having the conversation, we just get fucking nonsense.

You.

No, it is worrying for multiple levels, including the fact that the president thinks he's the orbiter of objective truth and it thinks he can legislate that or thinks he can executive order that into being by either benefiting or punishing tech companies who follow his policies.

Yeah, I mean spoiler alert for that executive order. That's exactly what he's saying.

And you used the word propaganda earlier, and that really is if there was like a thesis statement of what I wanted to say in this episode, is that that is exactly what I think is going on here. It really does remind me of minstrel shows because even though minstrel shows back in the nineteenth century were this popular form of entertainment, it also was an entire manufacturing enterprise where people made very good money selling racist blackface figurines

Like people like.

To think about racism as if it's just this thing that hangs in the air, as opposed to a system that specific people are personally and intentionally perpetuating because they are cashing in on it. I don't feel Google letting creators use their tools to create content like this is any different, Like no, yeah, it's that is exactly what's going on in my book.

That's flatly like that's just like one to one, Like you're using tech to create like unreal depictions of racist chricatures to please audiences, to reaffirm their own their own biases, to reform their own racism, and you're monetizing it and you're automating it to create hashtag viral moments like it's it's the most explicit and like gross, blatant form of

I completely agree. I mean those true crime videos, I remember that. Imagine if your kid was murdered and then.

No, it's so gross.

Twenty years later someone is like, oh, I've made an AI depiction of your murdered child telling their story.

No, yeah, it's it's it's it's evil. But I think the damage that can do is is kind of limited. The damage that this whole altered reality where racism can get affirmed leads to I think a lot more actual, like political and personal consequences.

Completely agree, And I also think just taking a step back in the conversation about AI, we're all being told how the proliferation of AI is going to be the lynchpin of our economy.

It's so important, it's going to change everything. And then you actually.

Look at some of these use cases that are taking off and it's like, well, was this really worth all the fucking climate degradation to make this racist AI version of a Bigfoot that.

Looks like a black woman.

No more rainforest, but at least we get racist Bigfoot.

So, oh my god.

It Well, Garrett, I think that's a good place to end. Thank you so much for letting me rant at you about this. I really appreciate it.

Where else can people find your work? Bridget Well?

You can listen to my podcast There Are No Girls on the Internet. You can listen to my other podcasts with Mozilla Foundation about ethics in AI called IRL, and.

You can find me on Instagram at Bridge at Marine.

DC fantastic, Oh the Internet.

Hi everyone, and welcome to It Could Happen Here, a very special edition of a Could Happen Here, in which we are very lucky to be joined by Inland from Live that the World is Dying and what will be the first of many crossover episodes where the folks from Strange Hit Tangled Woodenness are going to share with us some of their preparedness Advice.

Welcome to the show. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Yeah, thanks so much for having me, James, I'm in man Marowin and I use say them pronouns. And I'm one of the hosts of Love Like the World Is Dying, your podcast for What Feels Like the End Times, which is a lefty prepper podcast about community and individual preparedness for disasters of all kinds. And really excited to be on the show with you. Yeah, on a different show, because you're on that show with me sometimes, which is great. I don't know.

Yeah, I'm bringing together the two like I'm sure there's a superhero reference I could make here, but I don't really understand that world, so I don't either.

No.

Great, Okay, two people talking about a thing they don't understand. That is what pubcasts saw sometimes, but not today.

What are we going to talk about today?

Well, what I'm really excited to talk about today is preparedness in general, how community preparedness differs from some more conventional modalities and being really nice with that phrase.

Yeah, that's one way of saying it.

How individual preparedness fits into community preparedness, and kind of about my own journey into prepper stuff or preparedness, which might be a new term for some people.

Yeah.

I like to call it preparedness over like prepping as a term sort of because like, I don't know, Like, if I say I'm into prepping, then people start to give me funny looks and think, I want to live in a bunker with a thousand cans of beans and more guns than I know what to do with. Yeah, But if I say I'm into preparedness, people are like, oh, I know who to call if I need help with

Yeah, Definitely, I feel safe for approaching bad things because I've approached bad things with my friends and we have gone through them and we've.

Helped other people get through them.

Yeah.

Yeah. I also think a lot of people engage in preparedness without really realizing this. I feel like i'd ask these questions to you on a less rhetorical basis if I didn't know them to be true. But for instance, listener, do you keep tools and your car in case you break down on the side of the road or if your car won't start? Do you have a friend that will take a look at it for you and help you fix it. If so, then congratulations, you're into preparedness

Yeah, definitely, And I think it gives you if you're doing it right, And I think this is something we can get into. You realize how much your community can get through if you will have each other rather than necessarily the alternative that the other modality that you talked about is theoretically thinking how much you could get through whilst never helping anyone.

Yeah, and that's very different things. Yeah, yeah, totally, And I don't know listeners. We're talking about kind of more traditional like bunker mentality prepping, which we'll get into yeah, yeah, a little bit later, but that is my euphemism so far as more conventional modality.

Yeah, certainly.

Can you give some ideas of like why people might want to get into preparedness, what they might want to be prepared for?

Yeah, absolutely, so many things. The list is kind of endless, which is yeah, which is unfortunate, and I don't want to overwhelm overwhelm people, but there's just a lot of things, and new things are emerging every day. But the first step of preparedness is kind of identify ying what your threat model is, or really just asking yourself, you know, like what are you personally worried about for yourself or for your community and some kind of like larger categories

Came and we got flooded out. Yeah, there's migration.

This could be due to climate change, political upheaval, economic reasons, family bigotry. Yeah, and obvious tie into this right now is everything going on with ice raids where a lot of people are being displaced and either trying to return

Yeah.

A big problem with how migration is reported on in America is that like people who migrants have seen as like some kind of subcategory of humans, you know, totally. Yeah, if you were a person who can get pregnant, and you're a person who might consider, in whatever circumstances, accessing abortion, then in some states you need to be prepared to become a migrant, like a yeah, relatively very short notice. Right, It's something that we're all closer to you than we think.

Yeah.

Absolutely. Another big one is kind of like larger economic, social, or political collapse, you know, simply meaning that like the structures of the world no longer mean what they used to mean. This could mean the collapse of capitalism or capitalism turning more into like literal corporate feudalism. Another big one is, I'm just have this broad category of war. This could be an invasion, a civil war, a revolution, a rise in right wing militias, another rise in right

Well yet yeah, maybe, Yeah, we're doing a lot with the the old whatever. Rfk's in charge of Ministry of Health. It's not called that health and Human Services. Yeah, I think this is the one that, like, this is a disaster that people don't often like see because it's slow.

Yeah.

It kills us slowly rather than quick and it kills us quickly.

Yeah, talking of killing us slowly in it, my obligation to pivot to adverts is slowly killing my soul that I have to do any Yeah.

This is new for me.

We don't have these on a little like the world is dying.

Yeah, I know, I thought i'd take the first time. I'm going to leave the second.

One up to you.

You can have a swing at it. All right, thank you Products and Services for supporting this show.

We are back.

I mean, let's break it down for people in like a very basic sense. So that's okay, how do we start being more prepared? Like I imagine the first step would be to immediately go to a federal firearms license.

Se is that right?

Yes?

That is that is the first step. It is to fill your bunker with guns. No, that's that's not the first time because you can eat them. Yes, and now jokes aside. So the first step we just talked about it before that break is determine your threat. You know, in the case of let's use earthquakes as an example, if you live somewhere with earthquakes, then your threat model should probably include earthquakes. You might prepare for earthquakes more

It's so simple.

Yeah, obviously we will spend a lot of time in the next few months breaking down each of those steps and explaining them for people.

Yeah.

But yeah, like, I live in a place where wildfires are common. In my time living in California, I've been evacuated for a couple of fires. I've had an earthquake, you know, I've had a fewer than natural disasters. Of course, earthquake channels have become fires. It did in San Francisco. But yeah, it would not make sense if you live where I live to.

Not have a plan. Yeah for that being naive. Yeah, it's like.

A story like that for you, Like is there a thing did you, like, you know, have to evacuate for a wildfire and you couldn't find your shoes?

Like what?

So one of my funny things was living on this land project and like we were we were experiencing a flood. We were experiencing what could have very easily been a flash flood, and I was trying to just convince people to leave, and I had a hard time convincing people to leave. Yeah, like there was like water up to our chests. And this is my answer now. But my answer that I wrote about for this episode is so

You know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe don't rely on having people so subservient to you. Yeah, but I think this kind of air quotes conundrum speaks a lot to people's fears about collapse and is what gets people into a bunker mentality. You know, everyone's worried about roving bands of armed people taking what they've prepared for their own survival, and I think that is a fantasy that we don't really see

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a really beautiful thing.

Yeah.

To be a little bit of a word nerd real quick. I feel like everyone who talks about prepping has talked about the etymological origins of the word apocalypse. But it is very interesting and I think it's relevant, which is like, Okay, it's from these two Greek words apo, and collectine, which means like often to conceal and so like a more literal translation of it is a revealing And I think that disaster really reveals things. It reveals the ways that

Yeah, No, Like when I think about that, I think about like two years ago, I was in the Marshal Islands, right where like the apocalypse has come, right, the atomic bomb has dropped on the Marshal Islands, the United States. We did that, and the sea levels a rising such that like children born there today won't die there, right, they probably won't even have their own children there, you know, twenty thirty forty years left. And I didn't see like

Yeah.

Absolutely, And to finally get to my own kind of little journey into preparedness. Yeah, I wasn't a prepper until like not that long ago. Really.

Yeah.

When I first heard Live Like the World Is Dying, it was twenty twenty. COVID was still new. There was like extreme civil unrest because there was an uprising going on, and the same fascist that's our sitting president now was our president then, and he was backed up by people like Kyle Rittenhouse who were gunning people down in streets for protesting a racist murder. Where I lived in entire Mountain Range was also on fire. Yeah, and the idea that it was the coolest summer I might ever remember

I sure, hope, so we are back.

That was a fantastic ad transition, first of many. Hopefully it wasn't like apparently beginning ads for like some kind of gold company that is also sanctioned by God, God, that that is just just to be clear, not the way to go trans the community preparedness that precious metals route.

I'm not going to be on.

The Discovery Channel show, you know, like where the people shoot themselves on camera.

Back then they.

Didn't too kill themselves and they handle their firearms in an unsafe manner and hurt themselves totally. So let's explain, like, let's break down the good and the bad.

Yeah, and there's kind of a tension between them, yeah, and between like what i'll call community preparedness and like bunker syndrome prepping.

Yeah.

So the image that prepping brings to mind for a lot of people is like a right wing alpha dude in a bunker with a dragon horde of preserved food and more guns than anyone could ever use. It's like an image of one person against the world. And I'm kind of like, Okay, your fantasy apocalypse happens. You survive the nuclear apocalypse, Armed gangs rove the wastelands, food is hoarded and fought over, and you're protecting your bunker. And then what, you know, what happens next? How do you

Right, Yeah, because you've been an odious piece of shit for your entire life.

Yeah, and again make better friends, you know. Yeah.

Like I used to think that like preparedness was a lot of people who'd never really experienced genuine hardship wondering what it might be like probably is, yeah, a lot of it is, right because like if you've been just like poor or otherwise facing like like trans folks right now, right even like anyone really in their LGBTQAA area, Like it's scary right now, and you've probably found that the things are keeping you going are other people, yeah, and

Just start.

Yeah.

And so to maybe now to find like what community preparedness is is, I think that it's what we get when we take a lot of different principles and mash them together. You know, there's like it's like part mutual aid, it's part individual preparedness. It's principles of autonomy, solidarity, direct action, and collective decision making, and it's all synthesized into a kind of a beautiful little alchemy.

Yeah.

It's kind of the most like anarchistic thing you can do, which is really fun to me. Yeah, and I think it really means investing in the people around you so that you can all invest in collective survival. I know we mentioned this earlier, but like there's this thing that happens during disasters that gets referred to as disaster communism. Yeah, have you heard that one?

Yeah?

Yeah.

It doesn't mean that like Lenin emerges and leads a vanguard group to show you where the Pupercachen's at.

No, no, no.

No, It means that the logic of capital is kind of temporarily suspended, and people just help each other for free, not even for barter, for free, and like people like go out and just give out stuff they haven't excess, even if they purchased it, and even if they're like, you don't look like the kind of people I like, just give.

It out, Yeah, one hundred percent.

Like, yeah, I think, like I can think of a few, Like I can remember when those of people were being housed outside in the cold and wet at the border. House is not the word I would use peralte In the desert. I was out there with my friends and like we look like dirty crusspunk people, right, Like we're not like clean and well put together in that sense, right, Like we just scruffed and that's fine, and I like being scrubbed.

Yeah that's nice.

But like, yeah, it was amazing to see like folks who one hundred percent do not have the same politics as me, like roll out and whatever, like setups you know they had and like be like, yo, this is fucked luckily, Like I have some stuff that I was going to use for a barbecue next week. Some will drag my barbecue out here and cook for people, or like yeah, you know people who cook for their church's bake sale, being like yeah, I have a giant ass pot,

But yeah, it's that. It's the way humans behave.

In these situations, and capitalism or YouTube might have convinced you it's not, but it is.

Yeah, And I think like more traditional preppers really like get into it too, Like they'll show up they're like I got forty chainsaws or like like it's like every like chud Truck's time to shine to like Halloway Repigeon, Like I don't know, you know, it's like I'm making it sound exciting, but what's exciting is when people collaborate autonomously and collectively for like more good than their own.

Yeah.

Can I maybe break down some of these terms that are maybe it can be good for people? Yeah, yeah, because I think they get thrown around a lot, right, totally. So, Mutual aid is knowing that any help that we give our community helps us by strengthening our strengthening our community. Autonomy is deciding what's best for us based on what we know about ourselves and our needs. Solidarity is unity

You know.

Direct action is working directly to achieve our goals instead of waiting for someone else to do it.

You know.

We see this in disasters like don't wait for FEMA. There's like so many people who are just out there doing autonomous relief efforts and it's incredible collective decision making, finding ways to make decisions together in ways where power isn't being like abused or accumulated. And then there's individual preparedness, which is kind of the last little thing I want

Yeah.

That's still a whole lot better than like dashing around town wondering what the people you love.

Yeah, yeah, and it's that easy. You know, we get overwhelmed by tech, but there's so many low tech solutions to a lot of these problems.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's why we're doing an episode on carry a pigeon. Yeah, carrier pigeons, aren't they extinct? That's passenger pigeons, different pigeons, passenger visions.

Yeah.

Yeah, So, like, what are some basic ways we can we can think about preparedness And we're going to cover these in more detail, right, we'll do episodes on each of these. But maybe someone's like, well, shit, I would like to get on that. What are some things people can work on?

Yeah?

I think it does start with kind of individual preparedness. And when I say individual, I mean, like, you know, for ourselves. But that doesn't mean we can't do individual preparedness parallel and like with other people. So don't think of individual as being alone. It's just we're thinking about your specific basic needs. And so here's kind of a checklist that we put out in a zine for strangers

Yeah.

And then on the community side, get to know your neighbors, plan with them, help them with documentation and preparedness components. Make sure vulnerable neighbors know that you are a potential resource. Connect with activist groups locally. Build an affinity group. Maybe you and your friends are really into communication infrastructure, and when a disaster does strike, you just have that ready to go, while you know some other affinity group is

Yeah, primary, alternate, contingency and emergency plan if you want to use the cringe military acronym.

Yeah. And then these are some kind of questions that I think you can ask your community when you're trying to think about building resiliency. What disasters are dangerous do you feel like you're likely to face? How can you maintain access to food, water, and communication? How will you interact with other groups? What skills do you currently have? What skills do you wish you had? Can you learn those skills? How will you foster care and address specific

Yeah, yeah, people forget about that one, but it's important even in like really dark places, like I've attended civil wars, right, Like, maintaining access to joy is important, Like I've sat with people in Kurdistan and sung songs and played hambled, which is like I think the English word is ood, it's an instrument, and wild drones were vombit and so we

Yeah, I'm putting a songbook in my go bag now that's that's happening.

Yeah. Yeah, these people had a folder like they came equipped with like laminated shit, like they were ready to rock.

Golly.

Yeah, that's kind of what I got, you know. Yeah, that's a great place for people to start. We're going to be covering a lot more of this stuff, so like you will hear more about water and food and all the other things.

That we spoke about.

Will try and do at least one of these episodes a month, and mean, where can people find you if they have questions, if they want to listen to other episodes.

Maybe you've Live That the World Is Dying or otherwise reach out.

Yeah, if you want to hear more about anything that I've talked about, then you can listen to Live Like the World is Dying. Wherever you get podcasts, where an entirely listener supported podcast with zero ad breaks. And you can find more of what our publishers, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness does, including books and other podcasts we put out at Tangled Wilderness dot org, or you can support us on Patreon dot com slash Strangers and a Tangled Wilderness.

Thank you?

Yeah?

Thanks?

Holy balls, it's executive dysfunction. We call this right, right, executive disorder, a rectile dysfunction?

Right?

What do we do?

Who are we?

This is?

It could happen here.

Executive Disorder our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, and what it means for you. Robert Evans, I'm.

Sorry, Garrison. I thought we were anarchists, and being an anarchist means never knowing what you're doing or why.

Yeskank of Phim, I'm Garrison Davis, joined by James Stout and Robert Evans and Sophie Lichterman.

I wasn't planning on being in mic but it was very.

Ap well, it happens very able.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can't plan for shit, Sophie.

It's always chaos here.

This week we are covering the week of July twenty third to July thirtieth.

Robert Evans, how are you doing?

You know what?

I'm chillin' like Gillan. I'm not because I am not in a security prison in Tallahassee, Florida, a federal prison. It's actually not maximum security. So let's let's talk about friend of the pod Gilan Maxwell. We all love Gillan, you know.

You speak for yourself.

You love her. I lover her. Jeffrey Epstein loved her.

Oh but I don't love her.

So Gilan Maxwell is the daughter of a guy named Robert Maxwell. We've done it behind the bastards on him.

It was a fun one.

Bartley amazing character, basically a guy who in his early life was a character from inglorious bastards, like a Jewish refugee who signed up to fight the Nazis for the Brits and killed his way across Western Europe, murdering dozens of ss men and then after the war he became a financier and destroyed scientific publishing, and also tried to ignite a rivalry with Rupert Murdoch and failed so badly at it that he stole a billion dollars from his

So he really is like the average Quentin Tarantino character.

Yeah, what I would describe him as if Quintin for some reason did a sequel to Inglorious Bastards and it was just based on Brad Pitt's character becoming like a crooked finance executive in the seventies.

Coming like the Wolf of Wall Street type guy.

Yes, exactly like that. That's his backstory. Did you use to murder Nazis? Yeah, but now I'm like foreclosing a children's hospital.

Anyways, So Gillan.

Had a rough upbringing because like her older brother had a car accident when she was very young, and he was in a coma for years. Her mom basically spent a whole year just at the hospital with him. She was ignored for a period of time, and then her parents tried to overcompensate and massively. Anyway, she has the kind of upbringing you would kind of expect for a socialite who winds up both poor as a young adult when her dad dies. Not real person poor, but rich

Right.

Gillan was intimately involved in all of this. She was convicted in twenty twenty two after Epstein's suicide and sentenced to twenty years in prison for all of you know, the sex crimes that she had a part in. She was transferred to a federal prison in Tallahassee, Florida in July of twenty twenty two. She was initially held in the normal dorm like in general population, right, and the prison wing that she was in is was kind of colloquially known as the snake pit because it was a

Yeah.

Well, and she's currently appealing her conviction to this room court, and she's arguing, yes, that if she were to testifying for Congress, she would need immunity for anything that she says.

Right, So that's what she's asking for now. That said, she has already very recently been talking with the Department of Justice.

Yes, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blank.

Todd Blanche had nine hours of meetings over two days.

Wow.

Okay.

Now there are no public statements about what she said during this. We don't know what this was about. We do know there was some sort of immunity agreement.

A limited immunity agreement for those meetings, and what she was saying in those meetings, okay.

And we don't know precisely what it covered, but it probably means that basically, you're already in for twenty years. If you talk to us about stuff that may implicate you in crimes you haven't been charged for yet, you get immunity on That is what I would guess, right, but we don't actually know precisely, like what was happening here, and yeah, there's Barrett Berger, a former federal prosecutor in New York, told NBC News that he thinks that the

And it's hard to imagine that. Like Donald Trump's own Department of Justice is going to be investigating Donald Trump's connection to Jeffrey Epstein. So whatever comes of these meetings, I do not think that through these meetings she's going to incriminate Donald Trump and that's going to be handled in any serious way. If anything, something like the opposite is happening, where she's talking about people who are not Donald Trump, Yes, and in doing so trying to gain

Yeah, let's do that.

Would you consider a.

Pardon or a commutation for Kelan Maxwell if you love something?

I haven't thought about that really recommending that someone.

I'm allowed to do it, but it's something I have.

Not thought of it.

I wouldn't rule it out to her and why. And in addition to that, he's made a couple of weird comments about Gillan over the years. When he's asked about Jeffrey Now, he's pretty negative about him. He tends to be like, look, we knew for a while, like we were never close and you know, we had a falling out. He's a bad guy, right, that's what he said. More recently,

Yeah, you can just say no, Like you can just say.

No, I'm not gonna like, I'm not going to pardon her.

Yeah.

Well, and Trump has continued to make weird comments about like Epstein and has elaborated on his falling out with Epstein the past week, first stating that they broke up their friendship because Epstein was just poaching hotel staff, which contradicts Yeah, earlier state was Trump made. And then on July twenty ninth, he had this much more elaborate conversation on Air Force one about how Epstein was taking employees from his spa and specifically like naming known victims of sex trafficking.

Yeah, he specifically named Virginia Jeffrey fairly recently too when talking about like people.

It was yeah on the twenty nine Yeah, I think a reporter asked if he was one of the people, and he said, yes, I believe she was, right, Yeah.

He says, I think so he stole her as the quote.

Ye, Yeah, there was a reporter who introduced the name into the conversation to sweet clear.

So, you know, do I think she's going to get pardoned? It seems really unlikely to me. And it seems really unlikely to me in part because how would that Like, I have trouble imagining even that not causing huge problems for him. Right, I'm not one of these This is guys who's constantly like, ah, Trump's Trump's finally, you know, we've got Donnie on.

The road, finally got But this is this is.

A big one, right, this is a big one to his followers, to just Americans in general. Something like seventy percent of the country or more is following this story actively and has a strong opinion on it, and there's zero electoral gain and pardoning Gillan fucking Maxwell right like it's a it's a it. It strikes me as unlikely because it seems like a serious damaging risk.

The only thing they might try to do is if they try to paint like her herself as like a victim of Epstein.

Right there.

There's been like a Newsmax segment trying to argue this, so like you can see some sectors of the right who are trying to like create room for Trump to maneuver here. But I don't know if that will be a compelling narrative nationwise.

He's got to lose some people if he does that.

It seems unlikely, And I don't know. He seems annoyed that this is still a news story. He had this little Scotland vacation to finish a trade deal with the EU, which we'll talk more about next week, But throughout this Scotland vacation, he was quite upset that reporters there were still asking him about one Jeffrey Epstein.

Yeah, oldn's normal Jeffreys story.

Kid with.

No had nothing to do with it. Only you would think that not had nothing to do with it.

That is that why he cheated at golf?

You know, that's a good a good call, Sophie. Maybe he was off his game because of all of these Epstein questions and that's the only reason why he cheated at golf this one time and definitely no other times ever, truly his most heinous crime.

Yeah, I guess that's kind of where we end off. I'm not gonna say he wouldn't, right. I'll never say there's no way Gilan Maxwell gets pardoned because this is twenty twenty five and be crazy. It's like, there's there's credible evidence that he is considering a pardon for fucking p Diddy.

Yeah.

Deadlin reported that yesterday.

And again, if it is right, it's if he does. We know why. It's because p Diddy probably has some shit on Trump, right, and p Diddy has the kind of resources that he could have like a a dead fall system set up right that like if something happens to him, the info gets out like he that that is not beyond the kind of guy that P. Diddy is, Whereas I don't know that Epstein ever really prepared for that eventuality.

No, I don't think so like Mark Epstein, Jeffrey's brother was interviewed by the BBC last week and mentioned how Jeffrey was talking about like possible information he has regarding to the twenty sixteen election. But it does not sound like there was any kind of like system for this information or that even any other people knew besides Jeffrey. I can play that clip here too.

Did he tell you who he knew things about it? Well?

In the twenty sixteen election, we were talking about the election, and Jeffrey told me that if he said what he knew about the candidates, they would have to cancel the election.

That's a quote, It's.

Exactly what he told me.

He said, if I said what I knew about the candidates, they'd have to cancel the election.

He didn't tell any what he knew, but that's what he said.

Yeah, in general election, was like a very compartmentalized guy. And I don't know we'll see what happens with all of these cases. It's going to be worth following. But it doesn't seem to be going away the way that a lot of Trump stuff does, because I mean, it's Epstein, right, You've gotten too much of your base hooked on this story for them to just give it up because it's inconvenient now. So I don't know what's gonna happen, but

Don't know if we should do that in this episode.

Yeah, yeah, Anyway, what's next? What do we talk about next?

Speaking of pardons and Epstein, I'm gonna I'm gonna play one other clip from Trump's Scotland vacation where he's trying to reiterate his whole Epstein hoax narrative and in doing so invokes something thing that relates to our next topic. But I'll play this clip here.

So hoax that's been built up way beyond proportion. I can say this. Those files were run by the worst come on earth. They were run by Komi. They were run by Garland. They were run by Biden and all of the people that actually ran the government, including the autopen. Those files were run for four years by those people. If they had anything, I assumed they would have released it.

The whole thing is a hoax. They ran the files.

I was running against somebody that ran the files.

The autopen. That's going to be our first mini mini story this episode. So, the autopen is this tool that helps with the signing of documents. It automates the process by replicating a signature. And this is a machine long used in the White House. It's for like hundreds of years. Barack Obama the first one to officially use it to

Mister Chairman, you mentioned that you're looking at some of the pardons that were done under President Biden and the use of the AUTOPEN, doctor Fauci being one of them, talking about whether they were legitimate or not. Are you also looking into Biden's judicial appointments as well.

Absolutely everything that was signed with the AUTOPEN, especially in the last year of the Biden presidency. This is when all the books that are being written, all the tell all interviews that are being recorded from his former disgruntled staffers and staffers who are trying to preserve the reputation for future employment. They're all saying that Joe Biden was in a deep mental decline. This raises an issue whether these pardons, whether these judicial appointments, and whether these executive.

Orders are legal.

I believe that if this investigation keeps going in the way that it's going, that's going to very serious concerns about whether or not Joe Biden even what was going on around him, much less whether he authorized the use of his signature on all of this stuff. I think all of these are in jeopardy of being declared null

So that gets into this the scope of things that we're dealing with here. It's it's it's not just pardons.

Yeah.

I mean, I've just always been of the opinion that we shouldn't even be allowing these people to use pins, you know, niform. We already had the perfect way of putting law on the books, and we need to go back. We need to return.

Yeah, then to books exists in or is it all in the clay tablets? As God in.

All clay tablets, James, We've got him, robber the whole internet clay tablets.

Yeah, because none of these laws are actually written on clay, and therefore, I for one belief that they do not apply to me.

That they're not valid. You know, you've heard of e ink screens. We need eat clay.

That is the only way that a law could be passed in these United States. Otherwise I retain my sovereignty as.

A citizens that's what it's about.

Trump does pride himself on always using the pen to sign things himself, except for like fan mail and like thank you cards, and which he gets his staff to use the auto pen to sign those toilup orders. But for all serious matters he prides himself on only using the pen.

Not just the pen Garrison.

I believe he has a special Trump edition shoppie has a big bucket of them on his desk.

If a call correctly that he then did, they sell them off off to it my mistake.

Uses his special sharpie to sign all documents, including the next two topics, which are some executive orders.

Shit.

So there's been a number of executive orders in the past few weeks that are forming what's what the White House is calling the AI Action Plan, which largely seeks to loosen restrictions and regulations on AI and accelerate the building of data centers to power AI training so that American companies can better compete in the global market. But there was another AI executive order signed to last week on July twenty third, which is titled preventing Woke AI

Documentary The last one is one of the fucking funniest things I've ever heard.

Would you suck off one hundred apes to save one human life?

Well that absolutely not absolutely happens, but I would do the reverse.

This is this is like this is crazy stuff, right, This this is stuff that you would see like daily wire posters talking about like four years ago.

This is like debate me bro like blue tick twitter stuff.

Now.

Yeah, but even even talking about you know, like how like things like unconscious bias and systemic racism cannot be mentioned, right, those are things that specifically Ben Shapiro has like led their charge on attacking in mainstream in mainstream like political disagreement for a while now like arguing that systemic racism is not a thing. Yeah, and now you have orders

I never want to hear the word woke again.

I'm so fucking tired.

That's exhausting.

Yeah, it's Jim Crow for the for the computer these ways what.

This is like as a part of this AI action plan, Like they're like third or fourth main principle is quote unquote upholding free speech in frontier models. Updating federal procurement guidelines to ensure that the government only contracts with frontier large language model developers who ensure that their systems are objective and free from top down ideological bias. That's the

Just say you want Mecca Hitler Rock just just.

Just say he has Grock has indeed said.

That I know.

Oh, so that's the first executive order that I want to talk about. The next one is less brain roddy and more perrific, actually scary. Like I'm sure the WOKEI one will turn out to be bad, but this next one is like extremely extremely fascistic, and I don't use that word lightly. This order is titled ending Crime and Disorder on America's Streets. I'll start by quoting one paragraph quote, Endemic vagrancy, disorderly behavior, sudden confrontations, and violent attacks have

Yeah, this is bad, This is yeah some yeah again, people like to like to use fascism a lot, but yeah, this is some Nazi shit like this, this is.

A thing that the Nazis did.

Yep, let's get more into what this order outlines. So this executive order directs the Attorney General to reverse quote unquote judicial precedents prohibiting involuntary institutionalization and to seek the quote termination of consent decrees that impede the United States policy of encouraging the civil commitment of individuals with mental illnesses who pose risks to themselves or the public, or

Yeah, that's really scary.

Yeah, I think like we shouldn't not mention that a lot of this shit it's directly downstream from democratic mass in large cities and especially in California, pushing forrint voluntary commitment of vunt House.

No, this is like Gavin Newsom's wet dream. Yes, yeah, this is Todd Gloria shit.

Honestly, this is unfortunately very bipartisan when we are at least talk about the political elite, and to a sizable extent, when we're talking about the electorate.

Right.

Yeah, this is an issue on which the left has catastrophically lost just like immigration. Unlike immigration, it is not an issue in which we're starting to see the pendulum swing back. Because yeah, number one, I mean, I guess we have not yet seen the kind of violence deployed against the houseless by agents of the state at scale in public that we're seeing right now on migrants. Right Like, there's not a federal agency going to war on the houseless.

Yeah, it's absolute bullshit.

Yeah, I mean some of that might change, though, because Trump is seeking to mobilize federal resources to start doing enforcement. Yes, the order direction Trump's cabinet to be giving grants to state and local governments to help enact civil commitment and institutional treatment, with the priority of grants being directed to states and municipalities that already have and enforce strong anti

Yeah, because there're evidence based and they work.

The order also requires that recipients of federal housing and homelessness assistants to force participants who suffer from substance abuse, disorder, or serious mental illnesses into quote unquote treatment or mental health services as a condition of participation unquote, and that the recipients of these federal funds are now required to collect quote unquote health related information from everyone who has provided assistance and is required to share that data with

Don't love that. That's horrible.

Yeah, that's really just not align we went across. That's so scary, yep.

The weaponization of health data for law enforcement, yes services, Yeah.

Yeah, And unfortunately it's exactly the thing that like for years advocates for mental health care have been trying to get across, like, hey, it's okay to go in to seek treatment, like this is stuff, isn't going to be weaponized against you.

And that's not true anymore.

Like the degree to which, outside of the actual danger of law enforcement getting this data and using it, the setback to mental health care to people feeling having any chance of feeling safe to pursue it is like incomprehensible, Like it's it's so bad.

Yeah, And not only are they seeking to go after users, the recipients of federal Housing and Homelessness assistance that operate drug injection sites or quote unquote safe conception sites will be reviewed by the Attorney General for violation of federal law and bring civil or criminal action in appropriate cases, literally going after people who try to create environments where people who use drugs can do so in a method that will not kill them.

Yeah.

Yeah, people who are handing out clean needles, you know, safe injection sites, that sort of thing, any kind of harm reduction.

Which will now be under investigation by the Attorney General.

Yeah yeah, which is going to get people killed, as going to imprison people who have been doing nothing but helping other people. Like, it's just comprehensively a nightmare.

It's going to lead to more communicable diseases spreading that we don't like. Some of these safe injection sites have prevented spreading, right, needle exchanges have prevented When we combine it with our f case stuff like, this is going to be a major public health issue on top of everything else.

So on top of expanding drug courts and mental health courts. I will will end with one final quote the order quote. They will ensure that homeless individuals arrested for federal crimes are evaluated to determine whether they are sexually dangerous persons

Yeah, yep, we probably shouldn't let this guy become president again.

Yeah.

Oh, well, do you know what we should do right now? Oh?

Yeah, yeah, ads, discoda, ads, sure have fun with that.

Everyone talking of shouldn't have let that guy become president again. One of the reasons that I did become president again is because the Democrats were incapable of fielding a candidate who could say genocide bad.

Yeah. That might have helped.

I mean, it's a fucking low bar and they failed to clear it.

It might have helped.

It might have helped. According to new data from New York, where two thirds or more of New York Democratic primary voters agree with Zora Mondonney's positions on Israel and arresting Benjamina Yahoo and the fifty seven percent say that they might oppost Democrats who do not endorse Mandanni for mayor. Yeah, because so it seems like, yeah, maybe the Democrats should have done something about that. It seems like the majority of their base wants that.

Well, I'm not one of those. I always hate it when people like try to reduce the loss to one thing, because there's a number of but like one like Michigan. We can probably blame the loss of Michigan on Pamala's failures to call Gaza a genocide or to take any

Yeah.

Look at the way, if we're about to discuss how the entirety of Canada while we have been recording this is announced that it is joining the UK and France and plans to conditionally recognize a Palestinian state. Yeah, and the reason that is happening is because Israel's genocide in Gaza is continuing. Yeah, July has been the deadliest month for the past year and a half. One person who's

This was a major problem when liberating the concentration camps at the end of World War Two, American soldiers would see these peall who were just as I mean, can you've seen pictures of Auschwitz survivors and stuff and just act with immediate human compassion and give them whatever they wanted, right, And then people got sick and died because you literally can't.

You have to.

There's a very specific way when someone is that far gone that you have to slowly renourish them whatever.

Yeah, refeed them, ensure that they are maintaining adequate hydration levels, right, therapeutic formula for babies that are malnourished.

It's more, it's I think there's this like mystic understanding that like, oh, starving people are just hungry, so you just feed them, and like past a certain point, No, they're not just hungry. Something else is going.

Their bodies are failing and beginning to die, and that requires medical attention because they have a very serious medical condition. Those medical supplies are not getting into Gaza. The Integrated Food Security Phase Classification, generally referred to as the IPC stud an alert for what it calls, quote the worst

Statehood will not.

Feed these children, rightly, these people will be dead long before the state is recognized in US. Something changes.

Yeah, The whole recognizing statehood for me is less meaningful because I care about states, than it is as a symbol of the fact that France, you know, and the UK and an increasing number of nations who were not like imagining them ten years ago, like taking the sense of being as critical of Israel as they are, would have been a stretch, right, would have been difficult to comprehend and I think what it really does showcase is how rapidly international opinion has changed and the very dangerous

Yeah, they're becoming a parias state, far too slowly given what's happened over the last couple of years, but it's happening. I'll just finish, I guess by saying that Israel has agreed to make tactical pauses, which is I don't know what that really means to allow AID to enter The IPC report suggesting media actions to protect life, but it concludes a quote, none of this is possible unless there is a ceasefire, and there is no sign of that

To access their due process rights.

There is a lawsuit challenging this and many other issues at the detention center that will be held on the eighteenth of August. Talking of removals, we are beginning to see first hand accounts from the Venas Whalen people who were detained as Scott two hundred and thirty Venezuelan detainees there were traded with Venezuela in a three way trade for the US citizen ents detained in Venezuela.

Right, three way trade, I.

Mean very clearly the people in Seccot were really under US custard, yes, right, so it's just a workaround for a direct trade.

Well, or at least I mean they were under the custody of a US contractor, right, Like, that's I think the accurate way to describe this. Yeah, yes, I think that's probably yeah.

Yeah, Like the US had control over their comings and goings, as it's demonstrated by this prisoner exchange.

Right.

These reports indicate that the plane landed and immediately Salvatory and police entered and beat the men so severely that flight attendants on the plane cried, an ice agent told them in Spanish quote, this would teach you to enter our country illegally. Many of the menahed to point out did not enter the country between ports of entry or without inspection. They entered via CBP, the only legal way

Those messages include.

Stop hitting us, we are fathers, we are brothers, we are innocent people. Shortly before their release, they say they were treated better, allowed to shower and shave, and given medicine. When one of the men returned, his neighbors clapped together to raise twenty bucks for his mother to decorate the house and make him a meal of chicken, rice and plantains.

It just seemed very personal to me.

They also noted that many of the men were detained, paryed and read the Bible. They used food packaging and even food to make dice and playing cards to play games. The things that I read in this are actually, like, really heartbreaking, because I've seen folks from Venezuela go through really horrific things. Right, they were in the Daryan Gap when I was in a Daryan gap. I've seen him

Yeah, right like that, that's what you have to assume, and that's why it's important not to limit the discussion or the anger to the case of you know, the Garcia and you know this couple of people who are quote unquote obviously.

In essence individual people.

Yeah, like nobody should be in Seacot and quite frankly, Hunter Biden's right, you know we should we should invade El Salvador if that's what it takes to close this place down. Yeah, like fuck them, like it's it's I mean, or someone should invade us. I don't fucking know whatever it takes to stop this shit, but like it's unacceptable.

Yeah, it's inhumane. Like a world where this exists is not a world we should want.

No.

I guess maybe I'll end with some good news and a little fundraiser.

I people want to donate. Good news?

Is it?

A judge has ordered the release of kilmar Abrego. I guess he prefers to just use the first part of his last name, right, Spanish last names come from your mother and father.

Some people used both.

Want Oh I hadn't caught that actually, Thank you, James.

Yeah, you are welcome.

Judge Genie ordered that he'd be returned to Mary and not be immediately detained by ICE on his release, and the seventy two hours notice be given if they try to remove him. I have seen reporting that says she has ordered that he can't be deported.

That's not true.

She ordered that he have his due process rights if they attempt to remove him right. I've also seen reporting that he is like out and about on the street. That is not true. A Tennessee judge did deny the government's attempts to detain him while he awaits criminal trial, but at the request of his legal team, his release

Enis.

This comes after Trump administration or the DOJ has failed to persuade any of for federal judges that he was a leader of MS thirteen. His lawyers have also asked a judge to stop DHS posting about this and prejudicing a potential jury pool. So, at least in this one case, and it is moving closer to being back with his family, Let's talk about a fundraiser and then we can finish up. Yeah, So I want to talk about Hose Jiron and I

I think that's all for us. We reported the news.

Goodbye, we report the news.

Hey.

We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe.

It could happen.

Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts you can now find sources for it could happen here. Listened directly in episode descriptions.

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