Interview with an Anarchist Fighting in Ukraine

So anarchists are all about the elimination of hierarchy, and since the state tends to be the hierarchy ist thing around, most anarchist activists tend to either seek the destruction of the state or at least snatches of a life lived beyond its bounds. The most joyful moments, and anarchist organized protests tend to be those brief liberatory windows where anything seems possible, and even say middle class suburban moms might feel briefly like they could tear down the walls of

a federal courthouse. So the idea of anarchists join and fighting in a national military, commanding and being commanded in the hierarchy of the state's defense forces feels like a pretty big contradiction. Yet, when the Russian Federation launched a massively expanded invasion of Ukraine in February two, many Ukrainian anarchists announced their intention to fight on the side of their government. Organizations like rev DIA formed militias which have

been integrated into Ukrainian territorial defense forces. In one statement I found on the website enough is Enough, a militant representing rev DEA explained their feelings this way, Ukrainian anarchists are at war with Russian expansionism, fascists, and the government. They have created their own arm and call on us

to join them. Every anarchist collective, an organization that understands the revolutionary task and the internationalists struggle, must transform its general anti war position into a position of engagement by participating in or strengthening the anarchist Ukrainian guerilla struggle without suspensions, and by attacking the Russian eco aomic and political power.

Victory in arms for the anarchists in Ukraine who stand against Russian imperialism, fascist paramilitary groups and the democratic government in Kiev. Solidarity with the Russian and Belarusian anarchists who are crawling in the Democratic dungeons trying to stop the war. Let us give space to the people and not to

the imperialist dreams that divide the planet into plots. We are forever with the invisible people of the world who are fighting for an inclusive, self organized and anti hierarchical world. So anarchists with Reveda and other Ukrainian organizations are very much acting in line with more than a century of anarchist tradition in Ukraine. During the Russian Revolution, famed Ukrainian anarchist war lord Nestor Makno was forced to make a

tough decision. Ukrainian nationalists threatened the central government that had arisen after the fall of the Czar, and Makno and his comrades decided to defend the democratic socialist government against the nationalists. From the book Anarchy's Cossack quote that decision the local anarchists with a problem for it had them support governmental forces here, which, even if they were of the left, were nonetheless potential enemies of the masses autonomy.

Makno reckoned at the time that as anarchists, we must, paradox or no paradox, make up our minds to form a united front with the governmental forces. Keeping faith with anarchist principles, we will find a way to rise above these contradictions, and once the dark forces of reaction have been smashed, we will broaden and deepen the course of the revolution for the greater good of an enslaved humanity.

Roughly one month into the expanded Russian invasion, I had the chance to sit down and interview an anarchist in Ukraine who was participating in the resistance to Putin's regime. We conducted our interview over the course of several days as his fighting schedule allowed, and we did so over voice messages in signal. His audio quality was thankfully quite good. I have condensed some bits of the interview, particularly my questions, to make things easier to understand, and I moved some

stuff around a little bit. I hope this is still pretty clear. Now here's our source introducing himself. What I would start you to tell about my story is um let's call me Iliah. I am an anarchist from some neighboring country, but live in Ukraine for civilary several years. I had to leave my homeland because of the political repressions against anarchists there. Ah and for me participation in

this conflict. It has several dimensions, uh once like the the first and simplest thing is that Ukraine, even though it's like highly imperfect state like with clear new liberal stuff and some nationalists and varied influences in the politicum, but still is more like gray zone and more like um how to say, pluralistic and free space. The state here has much less control than in Russia and Belarus,

for example. I wanted to start by asking them about the elephant in any room where people are discussing left wing resistance in Ukraine, the neo Nazi asof Battalion. I've think it's important for people to like to talk about as off and and whatnot and not whitewash what's going

on there. But it strikes me that they have a really effective social media campaign and they're they're sneaking a lot of videos and a lot of combat footage and whatnot out into kind of Western mainstream media without people realizing it's Nazis. Well. To be honest, of course, uh, far right movement is much more massive in Ukraine than

any libertarian leftist movements at the moment. This I think is obvious for you but at the same time sometimes UH conscious or unconscious pro Russian propagandists try to portray the situation as if it is Nazi state or something like all the resistance is far right or something, but

actually general part of the state. And also, which is more important, of the grassroots popular resistance is just a political in sense that like most of the army, are not in the politics, even though of course we are aware that armies political institution itself. UH and especially all those people in the villages who are now taking up arms to guard their lands against the occupiers, they are

also not politically affiliated. Somehow, Ilia and many of his comrades see anarchist participation in the struggle against Russia is necessary for two reasons. The most basic is that Putin's regime is a threat to their life and freedom to The secondary reason is that if they don't fight, they will have no ability to influence what happens in their

country after the war to day. This invasion it really constructs the threat for the whole existence of this society, more society than to the states itself, because this is a kind of attempt to export this totalitarian hell which were constructed in Russia more or less. And to confront this just not let it happen is already a task I think. But of course to come to to defend some land against some occupation, for me is too simplistic

for the anarchist and revolutionary approach. So there come like more detailed reason reasons. I would say, First of all, I really believe that if put In will be confronted intensively and successfully here, then it's very possible that it will break the spine of this regime in Russia, which may lead to revolutionary changes both in Russia and Belarus, because Belarusian dictatorship exists, like realize very much on put

In support and so on. Uh. And another dimension is that any force which wants to be like really politically meaningful in Ukrainian society should take sides in this conflict. All people who say some dogmatic things like we are against all states against all wars. This is not enough. Now, this is not a position now, uh. And now this

is really popular resistance. Like if you do not, if you do not join it for whatever reasons, then you exclude yourself from actual political process because the main questions will be like where are you and where were you? In these events, and of course the right side is

to confront this imperialist occupation. UH. This can really give an opportunity UH to like for future and not not for future, actually already today for organizing and mobilization of revolutionary libertarian forces UM and constructing ourselves as some considerable significant movement. Like for example, now there is this unit of Territorial sealf Defense which enarchies participate in actively. UM.

This is now already around fifty people. Well, it was like unimaginable the recent years and months to have some gathering of fifty enarchi, antifascialists and so on as some joint unit. But now this is the reality, and this

mobilization is aid because of this invasion. Actually, so this is something that makes sense my opinion, and another interesting thing I think in context of comparing for example, UH far left and far right participating in Ukrainian political life and the current events that of course, for US any collaboration with the state is much more problematic than for the Nazis, because even they're like ideology and mindset as far as they can evaluate, it pretty allows them both

any relations with the state structures and also any dirty schemes, both with the state, with the business and with criminal sphere. Like um UH, our approaches are much more puristic, which is partly good of course, but also have some consequences for us to be much less adoptable as the movement

to the real social, political, economical realities. And for example, now currently this is still an question for anarchists should we join, for example, the Territorial Defense UH forces, which is even though somehow militia like localized institution, but still of course like state affiliated force orchestrated and arranged by the state and subordinated to state army hierarchical system UM.

But we still believe that in current events UM, this participation like it UH less compromise us, but more give us the tools to organize, to get experience and to get subject tvty, if we can say so in English, like to to to become really an actor UM. And still it is within this frame is still possible to maintain UM political independence and even some sort of structural independence. So this is not just people are going and joining the army and that's it. They are now just units

UM at least up to the moment. This is not our story and this is something, at least me personally reflecting on a lot. First, I would like you mentioned you came to Ukraine from a neighboring country where repression of anarchists was more severe. I am interested prior to

you know, this stage of the invasion. Obviously the first invasion happened in to A fourteen, but prior to this escalation, how would you describe state repression against anarchists in Ukraine, the degree to which anarchists organizing was opposed by the state,

by the police in Ukraine. UM. And then the follow up question to that would be, as you guys saw this war building, could you elaborate on some of the discussions that happened about what to do, about whether or not to form militious whether or not or to what extent to fight alongside the government. Um. So about state repressions against the anarchists in Ukraine in recent years, I would say that, they were, of course, um much less

hard than for example, in Belarus and Russia. UM. Also because like for different reasons, because of in general, of course more pluralist or political culture and political situation in Ukraine in but also partly because anarchist movement in after my Land period was not that organized and not that combative to really draw drive attention of the state to itself.

And also what I need to say that in maybe two thousand nineteen and twenty, this attention grew dramatically after several direct actions were taken by anarchists, for example, some sabotage against UH cell phone towers of some Turkish affiliated company when Turkey invaded Rajava in UH the late autumn of two thousand nineteen and often and also several actions

against some police stations UH. Some of these statements were placed in anarchist later website and telegram channel UH, and so police and secret services got, how to say, very energetic in their attempts to find the people who did this, even though they didn't succeed actually, so several house rates

taking place. They also tried to depart one anarchist from Belarus Alexey Berrenkov, who UH stayed in Ukraine for several years while decided to move out from Lukashenko regime and so UH, but they didn't depart actually, and also their house rates were not successful, so they didn't succeed in the in their repressions. So the last couple of years, this picture, uh say, vegetarian picture of zero attention of

the state to anarchist movement. It changed, so it started to be like a different way before it actually also was some direct actions believed to be related with revolutionary action anarchist group. It was, if I am not mistaken, around to Southern seventeen and so on. And this also were somehow um prosecuted by by Ukrainian secret services. Also about organized participation of different anarchist faction in the current

resistance against the Putting East imperialist aggression. Like about the most organized initiative you all in most numbered you already know, But there are several others, smaller groups, like more like affinity groups or several friends participating in different units. We even cannot count it because we even don't know about

everyone who participate. At this point, he started talking about an anarchist militant named Igor wala Chow, who had been killed by a rocket in Kharkiv a few days earlier. Before the war, wala Chow had expressed a desire to organize a network of co ops across Ukraine. He had also been active in providing support for anarchists jailed in Russia. Ilia referred to him as having been martyred. He was participating.

I don't know, either individually or with some of his friends from Kharkiv, but for example, I knew nothing about their group and their participations. There is also Black Flag, anarchist group from Lviv which now, as far as I know, participating in territorial self defense of Kiev. At least they released several photos and some short statement. Uh, this is something organized which I know about, and apart from that, I know, just as I already telled told you, several

affinity groups, groups of friends. The overall picture he painted of anarchist resistance in Ukraine was extremely atomized, due in part to pre war concerns about avoiding state repression and the myriad doctrinal differences between different kinds of anarchists. The war seems to have had a catalyzing effect which has made larger militant anarchist organizing possible for the first time in recent memory. Elijah was cautiously optimistic about this, but

he and his comrades also recognized a danger here. We are trying to avoid attention from the state services, from secret services. Uh, even though we still have to collaborate uh, somehow with the military hierarchy and so on in this situation. But of course we understand that if we will attract undesirable attention, then probably UH sound forces would try to destroy us or somehow assimilate subjugate us. None of the scenarios are good for us, and were aware of it.

So we try to have some publicity and at the same time to act ourselves in the way which will

not drive repressive attention to us. Like immediately, so up to now, within this frame of territorial defense, UH and UH like some civil volunteer activities and some other quite conventional activities of participating in this conflict against the putting east Side, we believe that we can take the ground for the new conceptions and programs of lack of libertarian cause, and also some organizational developments like some organized structure which

are of course not necessarily should be illegal from from the very first steps, but to establish some organizational basis and maybe hopefully ideological basis which will help us to act more actively, UH, both during the war and after war. Could you go into a little more detail about the ways in which you all do your units do kind of interface with the state I went on to ask how they organized their combat units and whether or not

this reflected their broader beliefs about horizontal organizing. His basic answer was that the militias have to operate within a military command structure and thus have to be broadly organized in the same way conventional military units are. However, being a regular their life outside of battle is much less

regimented than what regular soldiers experience. So about military hierarchy in general, of course, territorial defense forces are set by the state and they are included into the general structure of a military hierarchy of regular army. Uh. In this sense, we are of course generally not autonomous, and what is what's been issued by superior command we should implement in

life and should um fulfill these orders. However, now territorial defense forces, I would not speak about all of them because I limited since the very start of war, within my own experience with this unit. These forces have like a lot of time for constructing itself, like our internal life, not that much regulated by the higher command. And also there is a sort of space of communication with some

commanders which are a little bit higher than us. So we have like good people who our comrades who set this opportunity for us to get organized within this frame of territorial defense. This was just our old friends who decided to join some territorial defense structure as officers already before uh this situation started to happen. Um so, I think these people do really good job, and they provide

for us options to feel ourselves like comparatively free. Of course, not in operational sense, because uh, like operational frame is being set by the higher command and like as one picture, one scheme, and in this aspect we of course just the one of the elements of the general plan of the fighting. Uh they put in regime invasion here. Um so, I mean yes, as a unit we are governed by the military command. But this is really rarely that we see anyone apart anyone of some officers or i know,

generals or somebody else from above the military hierarchy. We here now occupied with the training, with the organizational constructing and with like improving our internal life, not being like really orchestrated by any military military hierarchy people. Um so, what about internal structure. It is still supposed to be organized on the traditional army scheme, so every section has a commander. Unit in general has a commander, and this is not an elected people. This is not like really

controlled from from below people. UM. Maybe unfortunately or maybe this is necessary in the current situation. This is really hard to estimate to evaluate at the moment. UH. In this manner, our internal structure in sense of like military structure is more or less traditional for the territorial defense. At the same time, of course, we have more democratic internal culture. In general, territorial defenses people mostly organized on

local basis and also out of volunteers. So people who came here are on their good will and not on some conscript, conscription or some contract which gives you a certain money or privileges. So because of this you already supposed to be somehow more free uh and more up to express your opinions, UM and so on. And of course we as somehow um leftist affiliated anarchist unit. Of

course we encourage the internal discussion. Everyone including all the commanders inside our regiment are subjects to critics and discussion UM, even though maybe final words in the operational UH questions

are up to these people. UH. And also it's important that we maintain a total political autonomy in sense that all the groups and individuals who constructs, who construct the unit we are part of, they like absolutely free to express their analysis, political analysis, and conceptual conceptualization of both these events and our participation in them are according to

their like analysis, their attitude, and so on. I also asked what it was like to fight ostensibly on the same side as neo Nazi elements like asof While Iliah and his unit are not anywhere close to the as Off battalion, I wanted to know how he and his comrades dealt with the weird reality of being in the same broadside as people they might have battled in the street.

At one point, I would say that before war, of course, there was a lot of tensions between UH fascists and US, not directly with us off because as of his UM like military unit like this is not the guys you meet and fight in the streets, but of course there is like they tried to set like their own how to say, mafia political empire, I would call it, or mafia like they had some businesses, some criminal stuff, some patronage from the Interior Ministry UH and also very different

how to say, far right groups which the leaders of so called as of movement, which is much broader than as of battalion itself. They tried to utilized and instrumentalized to reach their own goals. And with some of these groups, of course we had like just street fights. For example, the elements closed to this as of movement, they try to influence a lot the Belarusian diaspora, like a position

of diaspora in Kiev. For example, in the one year anniversary of the protests of twenty twenty in Belarus uh there were there was fight in Kiev between anarchists who came to participate in demonstrations in this demonstration and the Nazis who attacked them in like aiming to somehow push them out from the Belarusian movement to influence it in their own way. Like also just usual street confrontation also

took place. All this time, there is quite visible and active Antifa movement in Kiev which confronted Nazis on the streets and blocked sometimes uh UM several of their like initiatives and so on. And also of course informational and propaganda struggle was held by us by us UH during all this time since my then and of course before as well, about the current military situation, like, of course we are now actually part of one army with right

sector as Off and so on. People, we are under the same military command UH, and if we will be tasked to fight in the same place the same enemy, we will be actually like the same um like part of the barricade. But this situation we need to deal with, like there are different opinions amongst our comrades and here

about as Off and all the far rightists. They differs from that they are actually our enemies like both now and also in any future Ukraine, in any future scenario, because these people promote like quite obviously absolutely opposite political and social goals. Then we um Other people say that another like other people say that now there is how to say, general deadly threat we are facing and we should fight regardless of left and right and something like

this to fight the imperialist invasion. But I personally me I do not support this second assumption and position. I see this quite not really politically smart at my opinion. But what we here can agree on is that if we want to confront uh Nazis, UH and far right parts of the Ukrainian political and also military spectrum, then we need to develop our own strong structure, our own

strong actor uh. And also this um somehow connected with the question about p R you mentioned that like we need our own pr our own publicity and media work and also our first of all, our own conceptions and ideological blueprints which we can um suggect to Ukrainian society and present both inside Ukraine and abroad. And this is the work, this is the challenge and duty which we need to fulfill and hopefully like not hopefully, but actually

we are working on this already now. So if you want to combat us off now is uh not the time maybe to accuse them uh in some public statements, but this is time to develop alternative structure which will be able to really confront this reactionary currency. It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check us out on the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

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