Fighting Antisemitism with Shane Burley and Ben Lorber

even worse, they might even question, why are you talking about this when there's this other horrible thing going on right the actual genocide in Gaza. Now, I think, meanwhile, if you avoid this as a lesser or a non issue, if if you don't talk about these things, I would argue that actually strengthens the Zionist political project of tying

Jewish safety solely to the state of Israel. And in some ways, I think ignoring this entire issue legitimizes a degree of criticisms that are being leveled against these massive protests and calls for a ceasefire and justice in Palestine. So I guess, how long have you been putting together this book and how much did the war in Gaza this past year kind of change the scope of it as you were writing this?

Which is like that there isn't really good discourse on what anti semitism actually is that takes it seriously, that doesn't just kind of deflect and project onto anti Zionism.

Since Ben and I both come from like a history of organizing a Palestine solidarity movement, me with Students for Justice Palestine on campus, then the Jewish Voice for Peace, so we had seems to basically firsthand how accusations of anti Semitism basically leveled just constantly at Palastine solidarity protesters, and then also in research and covering the far right, seeing obviously the growth of anti Semitism in white nationalism both in the US and internationally, and that only increased

increase over time. So we wanted to work on something that took that seriously and also sort of revive different traditions from the left that talk about anti semitism, whether it's anti fascism, are different kind of Marxist trends or the Jewish left kind of bring it to one place, talk to other folks who are also taking it seriously,

and weave that together. All of that is different. And before October seventh, because we were turning in the draft or a book like a matter of days after October seventh happened.

acknowledge that things are different here. But I think that there's also bigger questions that we're talking about now that like we're doing interviews and the writing articles and stuff afterwards about how that's changed. But a lot of this really, I think one thing that's important is that because we make very clear, like very incredibly clear, the anti Zionism not the same as anti Semitism in a way, that conversation is the same as before, because we're actually talking

about where real anti Semitism lives. And if you look at the way that this course is now, particularly from groups like in the Defamation League, is it's basically built entirely around you know, attacking college protests, right, attacking these mass anti genocide demonstrations, right, And since that's so foundationally different than how we understand anti semitism, there's a way in which, like the conversation that has the book is sort of the same. And what do you think about this, Ben?

that machinery of oppression. And so our book tries to reframe the conversation and give Justice Organizer a way to take back the conversation away from the right.

or the economy. And these conspiracy theories are core to an authoritarian and nationalists worldview that mobilize, you know, millions really away from examining and confronting the root causes of oppression and convinces them to chase, you know, kind of illusory shadows instead.

component of some pieces of it historically. Is basically a narrative that people who feel disempowered then use to sort of like reclaim a sort of kind of populous energy, and a lot of ways it ends up being a place where folks are directed by people in power to put their class aang or away from the actual ruling class.

So I think in a way, when people see anti Semitism, they also recognize that there's legitimate class anchor legitimate like disenfranchisement, and I think that's actually troubling to sort of people don't want to undermine that feeling always necessarily. I think there's also just the complexity of Jewish identity that's shifted over time, different populations, different communities, different politics, sometimes religious,

sometimes more cultural, sometimes more ethnic. That can make it confusing. So it's hard to use one model for understanding impression than projected onto this and so in a lot of ways, you kind of have to come at this question distinctly from kind of other forms of oppression. That's actually true of most forms of opression. They have a lot of distinctiveness, but I think you have to kind of learn about those contours. And again, I think part of it is also that this hasn't been a big part of the

left conversation in the last twenty or thirty years. It is to be more frequent that this would be like you know, maybe trainings and left spaces where people would talk about that. It just simply hasn't been the case that much recently, and so I think there's actually a big lack of just understanding of how to notice those things and talk about them. And then I think weaponization has become such it's not just such an overwhelming part

of it. It's actually the dominating conversation on anti semitism, particularly in the US. So when you hear about anti semitism, it's overwhelmingly going to be directed by the center or the right, or for institutions directed at Palestine solidarity movements. And again, people get heartened skin to that that they don't want to give an inch on those sorts of things, and I totally understand why, and so I think that also has created that boundary of where examination would normally take place.

And I think it was Dysantis who just called all university protesters hamas, right, not saying that they're like amas, but just literally saying like these people are like are Hamas, Like hamas took over university protests. And meanwhile, you would be hard pressed to find anybody on this camp talking about, you know, this strong degree, especially considering DeSantis, the strong degree of anti Semitic people either involved in their own

campaigns or like their actual supporters. It was just a year ago where DeSantis's campaign staff released a video of him with the sonnet rat it's like Kamad buddy. So it is interesting how how they've been able to try to weaponize those claims while completely ignoring like the structural anti semitism like baked into this new wave of nationalist politics that we're seeing in the United States.

And when you use that language, you're basically authorizing military counterinsurgency against protesters. It's just it really puts Jews in danger, you know, not to mention Palestinians, the Muslims, you know, basically all groups, right, because sure there's occasionally a stray anti Semitic comment that shows up at protests, because anti Semitism is part of our world. There's anti blackness injustice movements,

antiolgo guts pistory, and anti Semitism. I'm sure, but that's no comparison to when you have like Elon Musk, the richest person in the world, one of the most powerful people in the world, saying that Jews are engaged in patrid against whites. Right, there's no comparisons in terms of power and threat level. So it's really making Jews less safe.

Rothschild's conspiracy theories or basically presenting kind of us in them populous narrative around theories about globalists and things like that. So there's really no comparison that we're talking about anti simpatism when it shows up on the left versus the really deeply inlaid way that it exists on the right.

And like Ben was saying, right now, we have a situation where the right is overwhelmingly united in support of Israel and using that as their evidence of support for Jews and then pushing sure great replacement theory claims which are inherently anti Semitic on the one hand, or really kind of mobilizing use in their rhetoric for their own kind of geopolitical aims, which again is not based out

of like a deeply held love for Jews. It's either built on sort of a Christian Zionist eschatology or just simply an opportunistic use of this minority group to sort of push their other political values, which itself is kind of a deeply held antisemitic way of treating the Jewish community. And so when we're looking at this, we can't let the rhetoric that's become to dominate actually stand for how we understand anti Semitism because it's been so politically motivated.

putting together like lists of incidents like maps. And as I was putting together my piece looking at this opparticularity semitism a few months ago, I was, you know, looking through this ADL map and the amount of like equivocation between just a standard pro Palestine protest protests that I was present at, and I was like, this was a Jewish led protest and having that be equivocated with acts of like actual like neo Nazi terrorism as well as

acts of like genuine antisemitism from people on the left. Basically it's resulting in like data poisoning, which makes it really hard to actually unpack some of these like larger issues that are that are facing both like Jewish people, people who are very concerned about Palestine and people who take like the threat of like you know, you know, far right nationalism quite seriously.

And the way that they even set up the reporting system just privileges those kind of protests, so people it teaches, for example, they'll partner with the organizations and show people how to report, and so they'll end up mass reporting these protest events and then under reporting white nationalist incidents

or like violent incidents. So what you end up seeing in their data is that they've actually undercoded white nationalist events because of the way that they kind of set up the data, and they don't really track things like housing discrimination, workplace discrimination, and ex Jews, those kind of

things really don't fit into their models. So what you end up with is this kind of map that just privileges people saying from the River to the Sea is like this inherently anti Semitic meme, and then undercounts like what often Jews will report as what makes them feeling unsafe, comments of work, or actual pressures when buying homes. Things

like that like that doesn't really show up. You've experiences of Jews in prison, those don't show up, So you end up with this really skewed image on what it is, where you assume that the left is overwhelming the responsible party, and then it actually invisible a pretty growing force on the right and even institutionally just like in structures of kind of like American culture. So it's really hard then to say, like, well, how do I know what's actually

happening here? The ADL's the largest organization. Every organization then uses their data where am I going? It leads you in a really big kind of a gap in how to understand this happening. So we can look at pretty clear evidence that there's a rise in anti Semitism by looking at things like street attacks or by looking at the rhetoric on the right, but it's hard to get like a clear picture of it because every organization is that's oriented looking at the left.

the radical left right. In the nineteen seventies, as global criticism of Israel's occupation mounted after the nineteen sixty seven, you know, Six Day Wars, the ABL like really pivoted further from whatever original mission they may have had about like genuinely countering bigotry to really becoming like Israel defense organizations. And so in the seventies and eighties, like you saw them spying on anti apartheid activists, You saw them attacking

Arab American you know, professors at universities. You saw them spying on ACTA, even left in Jewish groups like New Jewish Agenda, you know. And so it's not only Jonathan Greenblatt. It's not only since October seventh. The BBL has been playing this role for a long time, along with a whole lot of Christian Zionists and both sides of the US political establishment. And yeah, the career saying like the

stakes are extremely high. The right and the center are trying to legislate their definition of anti semitism, to destroy free speech and to protect Israel's genocide.

people who are protesting against the genocide. And we saw this with the with the campus university protests. You saw this, you know, especially at Columbia of like a lot of a lot of these kids are Jewish people who are heavily involved in these protests and in calls to do

a very extreme crackdown and investigations. It's hard to see how that's not just like calling for for our government to like further further oppressed these Jewish people who don't like agree with one side's opinion on something.

like literally policing Jewish thought, right like. We know, there's over a century of Jewish opposition to Zionism and Jewish solidarity with Palestinians, and from the very beginnings of the Zionist movement, which was originally a Christian movement in Christian Europe by the way, you know, and we've always had

long traditions of Jews who have resisted it. And so when the state is legislating saying only like a certain expression of Jewish identity is valid, that's also anti Semitism, right like.

being the case. And we kind of talk about this as like a good Jew bad Jew distinction, where like anti Semitism ends up being mobilized against whatever kind of the culture decides is a bad Jew or whatever the organization decides it's the bad version of a Jew, the kind of Jew that they don't want to actually deal with.

And this happens in this pro Israel consensus whereby Laku Nyahu, basically the far right coalition running Israel right now builds alliances that they need around the world, with far right parties in Hungary, in South Asia, Indian with the Hindian Nationalism with other places, and then those movements are pretty explicitly anti Semitic, therefore making Jews in various countries around the diaspora less and less safe right and so this sort of model of making Israel the bottom line on

defending against anti Semitism is one that strengthened the right, helped to build up Christian nationalism domestically, and then that creates this kind of general culture of unsafety for Jews where the only Jewish voices that are then held up are the ones that justify Christian nationalism on the one hand, like you'll see at the National Conservatism Conference, or ones who are so aggressively pro Israel that they're totally willing to partner with Christian science groups or the far right

wing of the Republican Party or National conservative parties in Europe. And so this ends up as a situation where like increasing number of Jews, particularly in the US, or Jews around the left, which again is still disproportionally Jewish, feel increasingly targeted by the political consensus, and at the same time this pro Israel rhetoric ends up being with the fact of measure by which anyone's kind of set to.

on like an inherent level. And this can also be coupled with this assumption that like every Jew is a secret Zionist until proven otherwise, and you have to like get every new Jewish person you meet to like prove to you that they're not secretly a Zionist, which is,

you know, very antisemitic. And we also do have this good Jew bad Jew binary mirrored in like an inverted form on the right, with Zionist Jews, you know, being seen as the good ones, and anti Zionist Jews have their like jewishness questioned or are seen as like untrustworthy or inherently evil, and I do believe it is worth discussing kind of the flip side of this, And I think of avoiding talking about actual anti semitism on the left, I think only serves to harm all of us, and

I because it is something that I think is happening and I think should be talked about, even if it makes people like uncomfortable. And I think it's a it is a mistake to assume that just because you're on the left, that you're like somehow immune to antisemitic thinking,

whether purposeful or not. Like like both of you mentioned, like, we live in a society that has a great degree of structural anti semitism, and a lot of these people, I think, who might be attending some of these protests or might just be posting online who knows, might not even be intentionally spreading antisemitism, right, but in action, that's kind of what they're invoking through like ideas of like you know, the Zionist cabal that secretly controls all of

the media, all all of all of the government. You know, those types of things we're starting to like invoke these like larger secretive organizations that are that are pre planning this whole thing, and like just to some degree from a lot of the discourse that you see, I feel like some people think they can just like control f Jews to Zionists, and like, if you're able to control f Jews to Zionists and the sentence still works, that means that you're doing it wrong. That means that you're

you're probably approaching this from a problematic standpoint. And there's a whole bunch of aspects about the sort of thing that you do talk about in the book, like you know, including identifying Judaism with Zionism and how that also only hurts all of us, including this like weird uptick in like Jewish race science that you're starting to see more and more of claiming that like all modern Jewish people

only come from Europe. And it's like there's just a whole bunch of this kind of stuff that we're all kind of pushing to this. But I do believe it is like worth talking about in some degree because this is going to not only harm people who are calling for an end to the genocide in Gaza, I think it does like strengthen this notion that a lot of the Zionist project is built on, which is saying that we need Israel as a way to secure.

other side, like liberating Palestine. But what you see oftentimes when you see a mohoment grow really dramatically, really quickly, is that there's just not a kind of like common baseline understanding always of that, and conspiracy theories are a great way to fill the gap on them. Yeah, and

that's true of really any movement. It's just that, in particular, in this case, we have this long history of antisemitic conspiracy theories about Jewish power in particular, and then we're talking about sort of like powerful political actors on the other and so making clear distinctions is just not there necessarily so you know, we talked with lots of folks that have been sort of litmus tested when entering kind

of less spaces about zientism. I talked to folks where other organizers asked to see their passport before they're allowed to come to Meetia's crazy, It's it's wild, and you think in most of the cases people we kind of identify that as being kind of wild. We make a

lot of distinctions. We talk about, like the sort of difference between talking about a Israel lobby organization like APEC and its power or kind of a vague diffuse Israel lobby that you know, control controls Western politics, that kind of thing.

semetic ideas are a part of the culture. And you know, I've been around the left long enough to see like virulent transphobic ideas show up to see, like queer phobic ideas in general be very very present. There's no reason to believe that anti Semitism wouldn't show up here either, where folks are sort of like consumed by anger. What people are looking for clear answers, what people are trying to identify that? And I think the easy answer is

often the paper over it. And I think what we talk about here is that that exactly is what sort of pro Israel voices want in this case is to know that the left isn't good to deal with it. And so the alternative to that is to both like create like a sense of like how would we confront antisemitic institutions and where structural anti semitism comes from, and then also how do we deal with that internally? And we talk with a bunch of social movements that have

done that. Right. Anti fascists are actually pretty used to talking about anti semitism when it shows up on the left,

that's pretty common. Jewish Left has talked about this historically, there's other voices, so bringing that back and sort of making a safe place to confront and then then figure out then where is it, like you know, just a bad idea that you deal with, and you talk about you have like education, and where do you draw lines where like you know, this is now not a person that's not allowed in or these are voices that we

can't partner with that kind of thing. I think that's something people work out on the ground.

And similarly, having like an antisemitic conspiratorial view of like Antizionism, that also will mask the root cause of Palestinian oppression by distracting from like the like the very like real like geopolitical mechanisms that have caused this situation to take place, and distracting from that with like these tales of like you describe it as like innate Jewish wickedness or a

global Zionist power. And I think that's a really good understand it because people often, like I think, have a general idea that like, yeah, anti Semitism is like in a lot of ways used as a way to not fully confront like the mechanisms of capitalism and realizing how you know, it's kind of it's kind of like a similar situation with Palestine. Is a way for people to understand that a little bit easier and to like reiterate the point about how you know you're not immune to

anti Semitism just because you're on the left right. Something else you also bring up in the book is like Marxist Leninism has a very mixed history with their relationship to anti Semitism, and I think you do see this with with with the degree of the discourse on this issue.

You know, if you compare you know, anarchist viewpoints on like statism and anti Zionism to a whole bunch of Marxist Leninists talking about this issue, I do believe there is you know, generally maybe more anti Semitic undertones among some of the more like statist communists. And I think you talk about like the Soviet Union's own oppression of Jewish people and kind of the continued programs that happened even after the end of World War Two.

both camps has been fairly mixed. I mean, I think it was anarchist like you know Bakunen who maybe like the ins and yeah, totally and you know, like I guess I have to also have to say, you know, the the with the nineteen seventeen October Revolution, and that was like probably one of the first times that it left led society did pass you know, laws out long anty sentaitism, and then like they did, you know, defeat the Nazis, so that I have to give them some credit where it's due.

from the root causes of power. And that's really I think where if you want to develop like a structural understanding of anti Semitism and how it connects to capitalism and all the other systems of oppression, that's where you got to go, right, Seeing how especially if in times of crisis and mass discontent like today, with the rise of nationalism, with you know, widespread alienation, that's when anti Semitism really rises and is mobilized by authoritarian and nationalists,

you know, leaders, When there's millions of people who are are fed up that they don't have a job, they don't have any savings, they know the media is lying to them, they know that politicians don't represent them. That's when these conspiracy theories, you know, really take root on the right and on the left. And that's why you have you know, Trump and Steve Bannon and the rest of them, you know, saying, oh, go look at the globalists, Go look at.

So a few months ago I was at the Emory University campus occupation and maybe like a week in or so, Enemy of the Pod Jackson showed up in person along with Hawes and a few of those kind of like cronies. Right, these are people who are like conservative communists, mega communists. They're basically like Duganists or like third positionists, and they basically become influencers that monetize the genocide and gaza for

their own like personal political profile. So this guy showed up one night and no one really knew what exactly to do, Like people knew who he was. There was people talking with organizers, and like organizers tried to talk with him and be like, hey, can you like not be here and he's like, well, no, I want to be here because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and you know, certain people would try to get into like political arguments with him, which is I think is

completely useless. And it was. It was kind of a weird situation. And then we learned that he was slated to speak at an event the next day. Now it's unclear if he was kind of hijacking this event or if he was actually invited to speak, but regardless, he was going to show up and make some kind of

speech at an event later that next day. So some people put together this flyer kind of going through Hinkle's politics, his history of anti semitism, rabid queer phobia, racism, all these things that explain kind of who he actually is as a person. And these flyers were distributed that morning, like before he was slated to speak, around the venue. As he went up on stage, a decent number of people in the audience who had these flyers protested to

be like no, like you can't be here. He was escorted out of the building and then he was escorted off of campus. I think this was a very effective way of handling a situation like this. It didn't give him like an opportunity for like extra clicks. You know, it wasn't a super volatile way to handle this was it was very simple. It was it was kind of elegant. There was just no way for him to really like

weaponize this effectively. So we have something like that as a way to like, you know, clamp down on people who are either disingenuous or just actually antisemitic. We're trying to like infiltrate or take over in some degree this

kind of general call to stop the genocide and gaza. Meanwhile, a few weeks ago, there were protests in DC as Netanyahu was speaking to Congress, and there was this video going around of people like graffitiing the fake liberty bell with like just pro Palestine slogans and stuff, and like everyone's freaking out about this.

And I see this as a pretty bad way to handle a situation like this, because from what I can tell here, all that matters is just being like edgy and freaking out libs, and it kind of destroys any ability to cultivate forward momentum. It's like they're doing it just so that Democrats will be pressured into condemning it to reinforce like their own hopelessness performative spiral of doing

nothing but edgi graffiti's political praxis. And I see this as kind of a general pattern of people trying to establish themselves as like the most radical and using that as a weapon against anyone else. And it's just like a form of political posturing. It's hardly any different from posting a black square on Instagram. They don't want any actual movement or any actual change. They want to be

the coolest, most correct people as the world ends. It's kind of like a cowardly way out, because, as you point out in the book, it's kind of hell to actually have to deal with and work with people who have some degree of like morally compromised politics, and that actually requires like caring about the ends, But it's the

means that make you look cool. Things like this are kind of bound to happen at any kind of protest that has more than like, you know, fifty people, right, there's going to be someone who does something that the

main protest is not aligned with. And on that note, like what advice do would you have to people who are attending these protests and you see someone who maybe does something that's a little bit questionable, whether that be you know, like harassing just a random like visibly Jewish person, or you know, writing graffiti on a synagogue. Right, these types of things that are like really not helpful and actually kind of do display a degree of maybe like like like coded anti Semitic motivation.

Instagram and it did very little like protests wise. Right, And actually at that same demonstration, there's a number of rabbis, particularly kind of like movement elder rabbis, Lindahltzman other folks that were arrested by cops, yeah, pretty brutally and then detained right, So there actually was Plice attacking like a

Jewish contingent of like religious figures totally. I think also there's been a number of examples, I think where folks really just aren't prepared for something, and I think this is actually sort of a long conversation people should have

on the left. I remember years ago I was with a group that created sort of like an accountability document, and the idea was is that if something happens in an organization, it often just destroys the organization, if there's interpersonal issues, if there's like interpersonal trauma or assault, things like that, and so getting out in front of it, just like having a sense of like how you want to deal with things, and like having had consensus amongst

folks with like this is like appropriate behavior, this is how we want to handle stuff. That's always a strong thing to do. But at I think it was a George Washington University campus at the end of April. Patrick Casey, who's formerly of Identity Europa and the American Identity Movement, showed up at the encampment and wanted to talk to people, wanted to ask them questions and that kind of thing, and people were totally obliged him. They were in photos

with them, let him take video. It's because they didn't know who he was.

on a white nationalist website. That's what happened, you know, So there actually was anti semitism. It affected the Jews of the encampment, but no one know who it was. And I think the flip side of that is having partners with groups that actually do know who Petrick Casey is and being able to say, oh, that guy is not here, it's not legitimate. I think with someone like

Hinkle Maga communists, that's really confusing to people group. I mean, that's why he does it like it's a dugonous and kind of gray zone types and this kind of version of authoritarian kind of like right leading, right coded so called communists. It's there literally to confuse people and to bridge the gaps between the right and the left, and so again pulling that base of people, talking to them, having like internal trainings about how this stuff works and

like what these groups are. I think that's always going to be a good thing. We talked with one organizer who had an organization that had put together a training for other groups on anti semitism and invited all these groups to come and you know, wanted to get feedback on the training. So they did the training and everyone kind of like thanked them and then went on to ask them questions, and the questions were exceedingly anti semitic.

It was things like, well, how do you talk about the New York housing market when clearly Jews go oh no. And these were major, major organizations and so basically they had like a choice like are we going to deal with this here? Are we going to cut these relationships? And they basically were like, Okay, let's talk about this, let's deal with it. Yeah, yeah, and then moved. The organization is huge, Like they were like we don't want to make these kind of decisions. We want to realize

where we've made mistakes. That's not true if everyone do not be polyanna about it and assume it's always going to go over well. But I think we actually actually attempt to make those changes. And the reason is is that the left and building kind of left social movements build on solidarity and equality. That's the only option we have to do something about anti Semitism. The right has never made Jews safer. We have right now a system where Israeli nationalism is supposed to the primary vessel for

Jewish safety. I don't know about you, but when I look at Israel, I don't think to myself what a tremendously aboves of safe Jews Like this, we have a situation that I don't think the political solutions actually offer Jewish safety and instead just create like more and more social division and more and more social hierarchy. So we have to kind of look at the left and how to build a left that can confront anti Semitism, and that is really the only option we're being given.

what's going on. And I think like people have this like inclination that maybe we shouldn't about it. Maybe she was like could try to ignore it because it's uncomfortable or it might like hurt the cause, And I think

that's just absolutely reversed. And I think, like you said, like making inroads with like anti fascist researchers to help like identify, you know, when these things are happening, who bad actors might be, you know, people that might try to trojan horse certain issues to kind of alter a popular movement is all great ways to start. Ben, Did you have any other other kind of thoughts on how to handle this like unique political moment.

didn't really like know these things. They took the sign down and left feeling like it was a good conversation, and so like things like that. I think there's some understandable fear like among Jewish people that you might see signs like this at rallies, and when you do, I think, just like trying to have conversations, it doesn't always go well,

but often it does. And I just think, like you know, for any marginalized group or form of oppression, the more the people just deep in their understanding of like what anti semitism is, how it shows up, what some of these these tropes are. Like, the more that it becomes normalized, the more that it will become second nature to people, and people won't be as afraid to talk about it.

we should be clear. And I also think, like you're saying, the fact that so often like agmuisations of anti semitism are weaponized against our movements makes people not want to talk about it, makes people think, oh, this is just a right wing issue, or if we talk about it, or we're just lending treadence to the right but I think that's changing, especially with the growth of the Jewish Left and with an understanding that anti Semitism is real

and needs to be tackled. And so I think, yeah, the more the things to keep changing, this conversation will be a lot easier.

cp into politics, that's just a failure right there. And so it's really incumbent on people to sort of try and move past that and confront those things, because that's the only way that like social movements can actually gain kind of efficacy. And the other thing is that they're directly tied to other forms of oppression. If you look at like the all out assault on trans healthcare and transtitutions right now, it's overwhelming, using antisemitic conspiracy theories as

sort of the scaffold team to hold it together. Absolutely, And this has been historically true about anti blackness in the US and the other forms of oppression, and so these things are intertwined. So I think it's important just to acknowledge that, like anti Semitism is not like just a Jewish problem or affecting Jewish people. It's really baked into these kind of interlocking system of oppressions. So we should see it as a way of confronting other things

as well. And to make that, can I give it value or value to confront on its own terms?

support of Palestine. We're seeing like new generations and folks across all generations and Jewish communities who are building new ritual modalities, new modes of Jewish identity, new politics, who really questioning old ways of doing things, and really building a Jewish future beyond nationalism and militarism, and connecting our struggles with all other struggles as they've long been connected, you know, like Jewish left has been around for a long time.

part of them. So I think that's a great place to do it, and also kind of requesting them at libraries sort of like pointing folks to both of those things. So that's a great way to support the book.