Community Self-Defense with The John Brown Gun Club

Brown Club. They have provided armed self defense groups for a couple of different protests in the Washington area over the last year and change, UM, and we wanted to sit down and talk to them about the ideas behind community self defense, how to do it responsibly, how to do it irresponsibly. We also had some discussions with them about the disasters that happened at the Chop Slash Chaz last year. They were not involved with that as an organization, UM,

but they have some insights on the matter. UM. That's going to be coming at you in a separate episode or maybe even a couple of episodes in the near future. Today, we're just kind of talking about the concepts of armed community solf defense. You know, what's responsible, what's irresponsible, how people should think about it. I think you'll enjoy the conversation here. It is a decent chunk of the folks listening, especially the Portlanders, will have experience with UH and that

that Garrison and I have certainly had experienced with. It is people at protests declaring themselves security, sometimes even wearing shirts that say security, and picking up a variety of weapons off in paintball guns and mace, and using them often irresponsibly on other protesters, on on bystanders in the

name of of of keeping things safe. And UM, I think we're pretty clear, and I think most reasonable people can see that that's not community self defense, but often those people UH certainly claim that what they're doing is community self defense. UM. And I'm specifically wanting to start by getting a kind of a range of definitions from folks as you are, all people who have engaged in community self defense, UM, and particularly armed communities self defense.

What do you see as the actual role of community self defense and how should it look as opposed to, you know, a guy with a paintball gun yelling at kids for tagging a window. Ray You wanna you want to kick us off with an answer there, I do community defense should be part of the a broad health and safety infrastructure set up for a protest movement or a community being deliberately vague here, but specifically armed. Community defense deals with mitigating lethal and egregious harm to members

of a community. The goal is forced and foremost prevention, mitigation and control of those threats. In my mind, ideally community defense would involve no one doing anything, carrying around a bunch of really heavy ship and nothing happening, but deterring those from harming others. In the absolute worst case, it means you have to actually do something that can get messy pretty coally. I want to circle back to

a couple of things. Actually, I do have one one quick follow up question for you before we move on to the next people. Ray, When you say like carrying heavy things and whatnot, I'm wondering what do you think. I'm interested in you and I'll probably ask other people to follow up when it when it comes to carrying and bringing a firearm to either a protest situation some other community self defense situation, what it is going through

your head when you determine what to bring. Because I've seen people carry a variety of different guns from like shotguns and in one case is of mos and negat to a r S or handguns. Um, what do you think is kind of the the logic train. I guess that you would take, like, what is the appropriate tool to bring like in this situation? So that depends entirely on what the anticipated threat is and how one plans to mitigate the anticipated threat. There's no correct answer for that.

Sometimes the answer to mitigate lethal or regious bodily harm is not a firearm at all. Indeed, firearms are applicable in an extraordiny early narrow range of scenarios, but those range of scenarios are catastrophic and need extreme measures to be mitigated. So it depends on what if you are considering bringing firearm, what is the firearm good at? And then you get into the minutia of what firearm is good for what thing, which depends on your legal context

and particular threat. But I think one has to start with the question is is the thing I'm bringing able to mitigate the type of harm I might see happen to my community? And to get a little bit less vague, there are people who think that bringing a shotgun is a good way to stop a car speeding into a crowd when it clearly isn't right. So one has to make sure that the tool, whatever they have is you is appropriate for the task at hand and the threat

you anticipate. That was great, Thank you, Ray, Um Katie you want to you want to give us your answer next. I agree with everything that Race said, and the only addition that I'd make is that, UM, it's specifically are in our cases generally doesn't mean standing between protesters and police, but more guiding protesters, you know, our activists or participants away from potential situations of harm. It's like, we can't stand in front of police and stop cops from doing

their job. Like that just gets you arrested and uh or worse or worse, and that's not what we're here for. So yeah, that's all I wanted to, could you, because I have chatted with a couple of your number about this, about UM kind of the role that that an armed contingent at a protest can play in kind of allowing an avenue of retreat, you know, especially during confrontations with

non state actors. UM, I'm interested in kind of what you um, you know, you're not You're not to kind of as you did, kind of kind of clarify this conception. You don't see your role as standing in front of the protesters between them the cops and like presenting the threat to the cops. What is the utility and kind of an active protest situation that you've seen of of of what y'all do. So that's a good question. And um, if we're doing our job well, then most people think

we don't do anything at all. Um. A lot of what we do is we're watching external potential threats who might try to come in. The most common factor these days is a car um But generally we're looking for folks that might cause trouble and finding ensuring that we're not putting ourselves in a position where we're gonna get cornered or trapped, and and really you know, just trying to help facilitate and work with the facilitators and organizers to keep things, you know, progressing in a safe way.

So as far as what we're protecting against threat wise, that that ranges from everything from like angry people who are just angry and trying to go home and getting blocked by a protest too, people who are who are actively looking to do harm to a movement that happens to be involved in the protests, or you know, maybe it's something as as as specific as a person who's

looking to specifically do harm to UH organizers. So most of the time it's we're focused outward and and just making sure that our exits are are covered and that we have ways to get people away from potential bad situations. UM, that was great, Thank you, Katie Shannon, you want to give your answer, it absolutely thanks. I would add there's a really critical element to community defense that begins and

ends with the word community. Obviously, there's a big difference between proclaiming yourself security and showing up someplace and being there as an intentional community support where the community plays a role in you being there and also has some influence on that question of what are you carrying and

what is the response. I think it's just really important that you keep the community aspect at the forefront, and that's a huge part of our collective work is making sure that when we're providing community defense, we're aligning ourselves with the desires of the community group that has asked us to be there, also filtering it through our judgment

as to what's safe and appropriate under the circumstances. Using some of those filters that Ray mentioned when they were answering and what do you see as like like, this is something that I kind of gets to both what

what is an issue with me? And kind of the folks who declare themselves a security, which is that they're often kind of separating themselves from the rest of the movement, specifically in a cop like way to say like, well, it's my job to keep you save, even that that means, or it's my job to keep things order leaven if

that means attacking some other people at this protest. One of the things that Scott Crowe in is uh in Setting Sights, which is a really good book on community self defense, does is set out that, um, a key aspect of community self defense, as you said, is that

you're like a member of the community. And I think, I guess the question I have is because guns are what they are and have the kind of cultural weight that they have, it's you people are always people who accept being armed as an aspect of their personality are always going to be kind of fighting having that dominate their personality. And it wouldn't. It's clearly something that a

lot of people have an issue with. The thing that is important is to be a member of the community who happens to be armed, as opposed to an armed activist whose whose role is being armed, right, Like I I mean, do you agree with what I'm saying or and like I'm wondering how you think about it, because this is something that I'm kind of going around in my head about as well, because it's it's it's clearly where a lot of the problems happen, right that the

gun becomes central to the identity of the people who bring it, which is something that happens to the cops. Yes, and also the mentality of separating yourself from the community and not being part of the purpose of being there.

And so I'll defer to my my comrades here to go a little bit further with it, but I would just say that there's a significant difference between armed community defense and having an intentional presence of armed community defense at an event or protest and being a person who

shows up with a gun. Those are two really different things, and so I think that's the that's one of the benefits of being part of an organization that does this collectively, with accountability, with training, with a known role in the community, so that there is um consistency among what we do and why we do it, and a history of folks understanding that if we're present somewhere, it's because we've been asked to be there, and that what we're doing there

is aligned with and approved of by the people who are organizing the event. And then I'll let somebody else who's more eloquent than I am uh answered that further if they feel like they can. Yeah, I think NOVA is up now. If you wanted to give your answer and kind of also comment on what we've been chatting about, what Channon and I were just chatting about, Nova, Hi,

thank you so much. Um. I would say that folks like Ray and Katie and of course Shannon really put it very succinctly, very well together and answered a lot of the things that I was gonna already provided things

that I was going to add to it. But um, the specifically the part about the gun becoming the driving factor in somebody's presence at the protest, or the gun being a part of the personality of somebody who is going to appoint themselves as a guardian towards bunch of people, I would I would say that with any responsible community community defense role within a protest context, that the act of being a body in between a threat and your community has to come first, and that the that the

firearm has to be secondary. Um. Uh, there there was an incident on the night of protest where uh many of us were at risk of being harmed by a vehicle attack, and uh, in retrospect, a firearm would not have mitigated that threat terribly well, But the idea of being in between a threat such as that and somebody else who is possibly more vulnerable than you are for

a lot more of a significance on that. So the firearm being there to respond to a threat and perhaps mitigate an active, ongoing deadly threat to your community is one thing, But I think the primary thing is going to be just putting yourself in harm's way so that you can spare that responsibility from somebody possibly more vulnerable than you. If that makes sense, that should be the

primary responsibility. And um, how do you avoid letting that turn people doing that into feeling like a separate and even elevated chunk of the community, Because that again, that's what happens with police. You know this idea that it starts as like well, we're here to serve and protect um and that that through a variety of toxic alchemies,

turns to this idea of the thin blue line. What is the way you push back on How do you actually stop it from going from I'm someone who is accepting personal responsibility for the well being of the people around me UM and putting my body in between them on harm's way if necessary, uh, to I it's my job to protect people, to it's my job to you know, from turning that into kind of this idea of I think stewardship in some ways that like some people in

law enforcement have where like you're there, they they get to tell you what to do because that's their responsibility to keep you safe. Like, how do you how do you stop that attitude from evolving? Because I've seen it happen to people fairly quickly when they put themselves in some of these situations sometimes and it's certainly not like most people, but it is. It doesn't take a long time for somebody to like especially if they're vulnerable, to

get in that position. So how do you, especially if you're approaching it from an organizational standpoint, right, You're an organization made up of people who come to do this, how do you fight back against that? Like, what is

the active kind of counter programming? If you will? I'd see I don't have an easy answer for that question, to be completely honest with you, but I say that the closest thing uh to an answer to that would be that and almost you know, monastic devotion to the task that was acts asked of you by the group

that asked you there. Um. So if somebody asked us to be a part of a march and to simply look outward for external threats and to be willing to respond to those threats of need be again putting our bodies in harm's way, but also be willing to respond to legal force and kind should the worst case scenario arise. Um, I'd say that the ultimate accountability rest with the people who asked you to be there. Uh. And there's no easy answer as to what that mechanism of accountability looks like.

But you know, in several layers, that would start with your teammates, the people who are part of your organization that asked you to be that is asked to be there. So other members of of j B G C H are you know definitely going to try and keep each other accountable. But it's also the larger, the the the the the larger contingent of the action that you're a part of. UH, to be ultimately willing to back down from whatever you're doing if a concern is voiced by

that community. And I wish I had a better way to word that, uh, But just the the the the constant vigilance within oneself against overstepping the boundaries that were clearly set by people who invited you into a space. UM. That's really the best answer I can give for that

at the moment without further percolating. Well, I mean, yeah, for for one thing, I think this is the reason we're having this conversation, and I'm getting ahead of us a little, is because this is still very much a developing thing on the left and and I don't think anybody has all the answers on how to do it well,

although I think an increasing number of folks except the necessity. UM. So I think that's part of the reason for the conversation, is this like continuing exploration of how to actually do this responsibly. UM. But I do think you hit on something important there when you talked about the that you're there at the invitation of a community, as opposed to you are there too to police or to maintain order.

Like the idea of approaching it as if you were to guess strikes me as a really good idea, UM, in order to keep yourself on a certain behavioral um standpoint, like I'm I'm I'm here at the request of this community as their guest, as opposed to I am here to protect this community. You know, absolutely, that's a that's a That's a perfect way to summarize what I was

trying to go for with that one. I think that the ultimately to be averse to being put in a position of power or authority is the best way to check against that um and to simply be a servant to the community that is again inviting you into that space and putting yourself in a servile is not the

right word. I'm looking for a different word for that, but a a position of service, a true position like like yes, what what what community defense should be is ultimately a service and a burden rather than a reward of responsibility and power over your fellow community members. Okay, yeah, great, I think next was Ray again, Um, you had something to say there. Yeah, I'll finish that thought in my notes under the section of what happens when things go right.

I think one thing that can go right is normalizing that firearms are just a thing that can be around and they don't have to be your entire ass personality, nor do they have to be a differentiating factor. Indeed, I think one of the successes there are not many, but of community defense in the Chop was normalizing the idea that people can have firearms and they're not an

inherent threat. Um. Thinking of people who are armed often and we're pointed out routinely, and I was like, Nah, he's He's a cool dude, you know, just a guy just like the thing. It's like, you know, do you really think the black guy is going to shoot up the chop? I don't know that. He's totally fine. I

know him. His jokes are great. Um. Again, an overhearing of these kind of conversations, it helps you know, firearms become like part of the tapestry of life, not this differentiating factor, not a beauty item, not something to write your personality around. It's just like they're there and that they can be good, bad, right, wrong, or in different and I think that normalizing effect is one of the

successes community defense can have. And I'm happy to talk about other things that community defense can normalize, but I wanted to emphasize the you just have a firearm. You're not talking about it, you're not touching it, you're not thinking about it. You know people have that. It's just around and it became pretty chill. And there is kind of the Chop specifically, there's an area where firearms just kind of were around and nothing happened really and that

was kind of wonderful in my mind. So from my experience with UH, with the club, UH, it's basically the even though we're the John Brown Gun Club, the guns are like the last thing that we even consider, like, UH, it would technically if we were to actually rename the club, it would be the John Brown de Escalation Club. UM. We would like most of the time any um any anything that's gone on. Even when I did visit the Chop and there were some weird stuff going on, like

Brother Matthew being Brother Matthew. People were um using their skills to um to to d escalate situation, to calm calm out, calm down, individuals to make sure that that whatever hostility they have would be abated through just verbal verbal communications. Talked about that in a little more detail because I don't know who. I mean, I was at the Chazz briefly, but I don't know who brother Matthew was,

or like what incident you're talking about. Something is a guy who shows up up here all around the Seattle area and also I think he's even said up in Portland as well. Um got preacher guy gets in everybody's faces, usually not liked by everybody, super afraid of snakes, thanks Jerry. Um. But yeah, he like like he's he's a person who drives off of confrontation and uses the Bible as as his mode of of operation. But um, I remember distinctly at at the chop Um he was getting it, getting

into it with people. But everybody who was around tried to talk him down. They tried to chill make him chill out, even though he was continually screaming for attention

and just being weird. But um but in the end, um, like that's just like that happens more often with protests situations or more situations or direct action situations where we're asked to be a part of it by the organizers and and as um Ray had mentioned and Nova had mentioned, UM, we like we're asked to be there and we're not just asking and then we suddenly show up, like we get involved with the people who are organizing, any of the partners that they that they that they get that

they bring into it. We try to learn as much about what's going on with them, who are the threats, where, where the event is, how the event is um going to be thought of. We ask a lot of questions about it, Like we plan and plan and plan and plan to make sure that everything is super safe or as safe as possible based on all known variables and UH, and then the stuff that's unknown, we do our best to mitigate that somehow. Yes we are armed, but that's like the last thing that we ever even think of,

and that's even in our planning. We say flat out de escalate first, um. If things start to ratch it up, respond in kind. So like if someone you know, like tries to like I don't know, like starts to fistfight, We're not going to pull out a gun on someone who wants to box somebody on the street. We're going to do our best to stop so stop them through other means, like whether if it's just to block a punch or whatever. But the first things and foremost is

de escalation. Calm, calm that person down and tell them to go away or just to chill out or whatever the whatever is necessary. I mean de escalation. All of the best community self defense that I've personally watched has been de escalation. Um, you know, they're They're not the

only situations I've seen. I've seen force used a couple of times in situations that were necessary, but by far, de escalation is the thing I've seen, um actually protect people in dicey situations the most, um, And generally that's that's going to be the case. Yeah. I know for myself, Like my attitude is we all go home. Everybody who shows up there goes home, not to the hospital, not to jail, or not to the morgue. We all go home. Yeah, I think that's definitely seems like the best way to

look at it. So into the specific question of how not to become a cop in this position and become the gun, the only way I've been able to do anything in that regard has been to not have that be my primary thing that I fulfilled. I'm part of a community, and I'm a mechanical person this community. I try to have my mission and be not that other skill set or that other access to being of an aid to a community, be my actual purpose in the community.

If that makes any sense. M. Yeah, that makes complete sense. Um and yeah, I think is the healthiest way to to deal with it. So, something I've been wondering about as so I'm like not armed at all, So I guess I'm on like the other the other side of defense, of the sort of community self defense. I think that

people show up to protests. Um. And So something I was wondering about is is the relationship between this stuff and you know, between the sort of com mentality development and the difficulty of sort of integrating the community, of having organizations that are basically independent security groups and not for example, like taking like I don't know, take like a historical examled like there was a thing in China you'd see a lot in like the nine hundreds were

you know, you'd have armed pickets, right, and so you you have an armed force there, but the armed force is like you know, this is this is like a branch of the union, right, And that's that's how they sort of like like that that was the sort of solution to how do you stop cops syndrome? Is that you know, they're they're they're basically like a part of

another community organization. And so I'm curious what you all think about what the sort of I guess that the strengths and weaknesses of being an independent or having having sort of independent security organizations versus having I guess, subsections of other organizations that are armed. Yeah, I feel like I can offer a unique perspective here as someone who's been privy to multiple angles of this, including separate organizations, ones integrated with others, and ones that are sort of

just parts of the community. I don't think there's any like inherent sort of best answer here. I do think being part of a separate organization makes it harder to be in the community versus of the community, meaning you came from the community and now you're sort of kind of separate but not really UM like JB in particular has a perpetual problem with people saying, oh, you know, John Brown will do X. And this is something that has been discussed and often this is to people's immense fire.

I don't want to speak for everyone here, but it does seem to be that so seldom does one wish to be said, oh, hello, It's kind of like saying, oh, the union will solve this, and it's like, turns out you're the union buddy, um right, and never referred to being in the first person. So I do think being embedded into other groups or being sort of this loose diffuse group can make it easier to be part of the community because of the structural forces that make that, um,

it is easier to get there. A separate organization can help focus and codify certain procedures training, you know, make sure that people have some sort of unified goals and values, at the expense of making it a bit harder to integrate into one's community. I think given the era we're in, I'm not surprised we see many many approaches to community

defense with varying effectiveness at different times, including JBS perspective. Yeah, and um, I guess I'm interested as we are as we move on here, and like, one of the one of the questions I see is how do you the difficulty and kind of you don't want to have a situation where there's absolutely no where the community self defense contention is anyone who shows up with a gun, because then anyone can show up with a gun, and you as someone else who's showing up with a weapinar potentially

like if that person and uh makes a bad decision, that's going to I mean as it as it has in the past, that has significant repercussions on everybody else. And I that is one of the thorny or points because I I do one of the things I see is valuable. Someone mentioned earlier, like the nice thing about it just in not being firearms being normalized, not as a like gun culture thing, but as this is just

a thing that is present in the community. And I saw that a lot in Rojabo, right, that everybody was armed m or at least the significant chunk of the populace had access to arms, but nobody was showing off with them. They were not like anybody's like like piece of identity. They were just one of the tools like a like a like a spade or a shovel that were present in the community. Um okay, I think I've skipped over a couple of people. I wanted to give

thud a chance to talk. That's actually very much should have in line with But the point I was going to make, which is, for me, a huge part of community defend is making sure that the aspect that is defending the community is not alienated from the community because it isn't concentrated in just a few people. Because I think one of the other things that we emphasize the lots with outside of direct protest actions is you try to teach people how to safely operate firearms, but also

to give firearms the respect that they deserve. That firearms are not there so that you are badass. Firearms are not there because you know you're going to get into a gunfight. And it's well, the first rule, I mean, one of the one of the things that we stress sort of beyond the basic four rules of gun safety is the first rule of gunpipe is don't get into a gunpipe. That it's you know, you want to exhaust

every possible option that you have. And when the community at large is engaged and like prey with saying that it's sort of it comes from wized that oh, we're not relying on these several people to keep us safe, but that in fact, as an entire collective we are keeping a safe and that gives recognition the fact that some people it's not it's not the right choice for them to carry again for one reason or another, and the at the same time, the power that is present

in that particular tool is dispersed to the point where it doesn't you know, you don't have people getting self aggrandizing thoughts because of the fact that they're possessing firearms. And I think that's something that we, you know, work really hard to instill in evil in a variety of context, and I think is really critical to this question. So the question that trying to summarize, UM, what the question was earlier, What the strengths and weaknesses of having an

organized armed response are UM. One of the things that that I wanted to bring up is the historical context of armed response, specifically community armed response in Seattle. UM. I did some digging and found in a book called History of Seattle from the Earliest Settlement to the Present Time, Volume two, which I started pouring through and found that there was in eighteen seventy four there was a group called the Seattle Amateur Rifle Association, which least Land for

a range on current present day Capitol Hill. Um like right where the train station is if you're familiar with the area, so like right where protests always happened these days. Later on, there's record record in eight seventy seven of the Seattle Rifle Team organizing and shooting contests, and then later on in six which is a number that probably

rings a bell the China. These riots, as they called them at the time, happened which was sort of the start of the labor movement where everyone decided that Chinese immigrants were the cause of all of our woes, that the low wages being paid to Chinese immigrants were because of Chinese immigrants and not racism. So they decided to run every person who looked Chinese out of town. Literally. They referred to this as the Tacoma method, and that's

what they did in Takemma exactly. It started there and there was a February seven, this massive, angry racist mob tried to push all of the Chinese folks out of Seattle or anyone they thought might look like Chinese, and they tried to push them onto a steamboat, but there weren't there wasn't enough room for them all there um cops got involved, a bunch of other stuff happened. They

decided no, give them time in court. But in the process uh of making this decision, you know, the racist got a mob together and we're basically just going to try and put a stop to this before the legal proceedings could to go forward. So they reached out to local allies and arms. They had the Home Guards, which I'm not exactly sure exactly what the Home Guards were, but I assume there's something related to National Guard later on,

or maybe just an extension of military. But the Home Guards and the Seattle Rifles as well as the University Cadets, which I'm assuming are of course soldiers in training, and pulled them all out and made a community self defense group out of them. They didn't put a rifle line and held the mob back and enabled those folks to get you know, safely, to have their day in court, um, and then to protect them for a while afterward. They actually organized a sort of a watch because they didn't

have enough police to to manage the mob. They use books from the Seattle Rifles and these other groups to uh to sort of bolster the police forces and keep peace in the town. So the sort of thing that we do is a long standing historical presence. But I think there's a lot of things you can look at the history of and sort of take lessons from so um as as very mentioned, a unified response is of course a huge benefit of having a huge strength of

having an organized armed group. Uh. And it's it's literally if someone reaches out and says we need help, help is available. Um. But there are a lot of weaknesses. Businesses and clubs can be held liable legally, and this is an endemic problem within gun laws. It stands the laws are written such that they effectively there that it comes down to situational context to determine how a gun law should be enforced. And the law will never be on the side of a group trying to abolish parts

of the law. So you have to be very careful about how you how especially an organized or formally organized armed group has to be very cheerful about how they But there there worked in play with that in mind. Yeah, that was great, And I was unaware, actually I was aware of the of the riots. I was unaware of that part of the history, which is fascinating, UM and I think very important. Yeah, Ray did you want to

explain the threat onion? Yeah, the integrated threat onion. So this is kind of a well known meme in certain circles slash actual thing, and it's designed to help you understand how to like mitigate threat and sorry, integrated survivability onion mitigate threats. Right. So the teel deer is, you know, do you want to try to preserve life by having body armor and hoping a bullet it's you in the body armor, or do you want to preserve life by I don't know, not showing the funk up to something

where you might get shot. And the idea is it's it's a meme because so often, you know, people are like, oh, they want to get in there and get and get engaged with conflict and be the hero. And the answer is, you know, you could just like not go there, right, and it would probably be a lot easier to do that.

But there's some real weight to the survivability onion, which is like, there are many many ways to mitigate threats to yourself in your community, and very often the most boring and mundane answer is probably the one that's going to actually result in the biggest impact. And the heroic answer is probably the absolute worst answer and only what you rely on if everything else has gone to hell.

So that's someone I think it was thund spoken to alluded to the threat onion and ways to mitigate harm to oneself and one's community, and I had to repeat it because it's this, this meme that's been coming up forever. Yeah, and it is like the basic idea of the thread onion is that you have like this again you if

you think of it in layers. That's why they call it an onion um of like things that protect you, and the things that provide the most protection are stuff like not being seen or present when somebody wants to harm you, um, not or being behind cover when somebody wants to harm you. And the thing that offers the

least protection is having body armor. You know. It's this the idea that like um, the things that people buy and and focus on because they look cool, UM are all things that offer less protection than situational awareness and good judgment. UM is kind of the actual like lesson I think to take out of the threat onion, that would be my opinion on the matter. This has been

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