Chile and The Shock Of Victory

Jesus Christ. Um, I'm Robert Evans. This is a show about how things fall apart and how to maybe stop them from falling apart as much. And today we're talking to some people who were in kind of the best case scenario situation for having a bunch of authoritarians try to uh dominate your country, by which I mean we're talking to some Chilean activists who who who won um, And as much as it's it's possible to win in the world, UM, it's a pretty exciting situation. UM, happening there.

I'm excited to introduce people to like what's been going on. But first I want to introduce our guests for today. UM, y'all wanna you'll wanna say hello hello. My name is Jeremiah I'm from the United States. I've lived in Chile for the last ten years, and I'm Stephanie Ahead. I'm a Chillian and I'm leaving here with with my my husband. Hi. I'm Nicholas. I'm too and I have been living here

for my whole life. Yeah. So we started a small group called Nitos to do some activism to try to get out to vote for the Pleglcito, to try to UH last year to get the constitution approved to be voted on, and and it successful. So we are proud of the small bit of work that we did to help that happen. And so today the constitution is being

written and it's a very exciting time. Yeah. And I want to let's pull back a little bit because the last time we we talked about UM Chile on behind the Bastards in two thousand nineteen, when UM a protest that started as some i think it's fair to say zoomers protesting a fair increase by like jumping fares at

the at the underground the subway. UM was met with police doing police stuff, which was met with people taking to the streets and very significant numbers, which is the thing that by now a lot more people are experienced with. But unlike kind of what happened in my country, you did it. You made him blink, and and that's what the plebiscite is, right, like the there was an agreement made to give because Chile was still, if I'm not mistaken,

governed under the same constitution that that Pinochet had had, right. Um, and Pinochet famously not a great guy. UM, So I wonder if you might give us kind of an overview of y'all's experience during that time, from like the start of the protests to oh ship we might actually get to change things at a pretty fundamental level in our country. UM. Yeah. So it was incredible time, about exactly two years ago. So just the of October was just a two year anniversary.

And um, as you said, it all started with um literal high schoolers, sixteen year olds who are protesting a thirty paso increase, which is, you know, like increase in the metro. But we of course have one of the most expensive metros in the world and a very low, um uh minimum wage here. And so as you said, they went out there and started to jump the turnstiles, but in massive groups, hundreds of them going to the metro together and all jumping together, and in response, the

government ended up closing the metros. And so it was this Friday night, UM, and we were having dinner and UH suddenly the metros were all closed and everyone had to just walk home from work or dinner or where they were. And that was kind of the beginning of everything. And it was almost like the government brought it on themselves, because suddenly there were thousands of people in the streets just because they had no other way to get home.

And from there, UH, they there were protests, and the protests were met with extreme police oppression and water cannons and tear gas and all of that, and UM. Eventually it led to one March, which had over a million people throughout Chile marching, and UM a series of marches and protests basically every week for months. UM and finally

UH it came down to UH. They announced that there would be this Plebilist site and it was a vote yes or no to create a new constitution, because yes, Chile is still There were some reforms in the early two thousands to the constitution, but UM still we live under the constitution written by Jaime Gustman UM kind of you know, CH's right hand man, and we happen to live. Nico is our good friend and also our next door neighbor, and we live about four blocks from the Plaza Um

formerly Plaza Italia. Now the protesters have deemed it Plaza Dignidad, and so we've been just in the middle of it and for or for a couple of months are our whole neighborhood was like a war zone and uh, just really crazy protests every single day and and tear gas and all of that, and it was it was really intense for a while, and uh it still is. You know. Um last Friday, uh we you know, were met with

tear gas and water cannons again. So it's it's it's even though the kind the constitution is being written again and the pledgliscite was a year ago, but the police

are still out there being bastards. Yeah, I'm curious what each of you kind of sees as the moment when or if you because maybe I was going too optimistic, right like I guess I'm wondering, do you think that a corner has been turned and and if so, what was kind of the moment each of you felt like, oh my God, we might Actually, this isn't just gonna be like showing up to get the ship kicked out of us. We're going to get somewhat least of what

we're fighting for. Wait technically, yeah, I mean I think that like that particular moment was when we finally went to the elections to who you call the referendum for the for this new constitution, and we were kind of skeptic about the the percentage of people who approved this new constitution because a few months ago or a few weeks before this referendum, we have like continuing quests polls. We had the polls and they were kind of fifty. So we're kind of skeptic about are we gonna have

a new constitution or not. And that the same night, I mean, the process very quick, so after I know, the this thing close at six pm and then you have the results like three hours later. So on the same day we're having the the results on it was like eighty I guess twenty, So it was like kind of shocking. I mean, we I think that nobody was expecting to have this kind of percent of the people until they were I went to throw to the being the you know, tech Constitution, So it was kind of like,

I don't know out say that the best moment. Yeah,

there's this. There's an American, a deceased American UM sociologist who who wrote an essay that I find quite influential called The Shock of Victory, and it's about how activists often failed to take advantage of of their momentum, like because they're kind of surprised at the success early on, and then they don't properly take advantage of what they have when they have it, and and you know, progress gets turned back, which I think we've seen happen in

the United States in the wake of of what happened here last summer. Why do you think that that hasn't happened in Chile? What do think it is that that that enabled um, you you all to actually keep the pressure on and and take advantage of that that moment in time, which which never I guess that's what I'm impressed with the most, is that you you' all did manage to to make that momentum work for you rather

than kind of letting it pull you off balance. And I guess I'm just trying to get a handle on on how UM I guess for me, what I think it's lost a lot in the conversation is UM the

premier linear, so the first line of defense. And so you have UM a bunch of young people, anarchists, you know, just crazy young people who went out there to fight with the cops every single day, and it was really impressive and a lot of times we uh, I don't know, I feel like they don't get the credit they deserve because you know, they're the delnents and that you know, we talk a lot about the big march is when there was a million people in the street and and obviously,

like Nico said, winning the vote by scent showed that it was something that everyone in Chile wanted. But it never would have happened if it weren't for the this small group of of fighters who were there every single day, facing tear gas and water cannons and police beating them up with you know, throwing rocks and stuff like that.

So I think that's the main thing. It wasn't like once a month or even once a week, it was every single day and they were there on the front line, and it none of this would be possible without them.

That's fascinating to me because obviously things like that, groups like that existed here, like in Portland's Win every night for not as long, but for not an insignificant amount of time, and it was those same It was a lot of these kind of young anarchists front liners who were willing to go toe to the toe with the cops every night. But you didn't have you didn't have that kind of larger, more moderate populace backing them up.

And I guess one of the things I'm curious about is what was kind of the you mentioned you don't think they get the credit they deserve. Was there a broad attitude that, like, these people are the ones going face to face with the cops, so that those of us, you know, people who are older, people who aren't and it is going to ship people who can't physically take as much abuse can still show up or was it?

I'm kind of curious how how those people represented what they were doing and how it how it was seen by most of kind of the more moderate people who still supported change around you, because that that dynamic exists in any mass protest movement, and I'm it worked where you are, and I'm trying to get a handle on maybe how it was different than what I saw in Portland.

Uh so now a lot of them are in yo and um or without one eye, so is uh it's really terrible because else we have all these new beautiful process but we are without really completely democracy with liberty with the for this guy or or democracy for all this um person that loose eyes or uh yeah and everyone that was injured. Um So, yeah, a lot of protests nowadays. Actually I think today right now there's a protest going on to free the political prisoners um and uh.

But yeah, I mean I think they're even among you know, obviously of the country voted for the new constitution, so there's a lot of different points of view there. But but yeah, there was division even among the left. A lot of people said, you know, this is not the form of this is not the way to protest, and we should not be violent and you know, burning things

and um. But but there was a lot, I mean, you saw a lot of the opposite where people were saying, just as you said, like those out there on the front line are the reason that the older people and others can come out and feel safer to protest because the primary linea is kind of taking the brunt of the violence from the police, and that allows the older people and those who are are less confrontational to be

out there in protests. So for me, some of some of the most inspiring signs I remember seeing are like folks that are eighty years old and they have signs that say, you know, Gracia sala primary LINEA. You know, like thank you to the front liners who who are taking that violence so that they are ball the others

to to protest in a more peaceful way. That's such a fascinating situation to me that you've got You've got these these more radical frontliners who were, as you say, critical in allowing this, this really groundbreaking change to occur in your society. But at the same time, things haven't changed enough that number one, the cops will beat the ship out of them, I'm guessing are still largely employed, um and and a bunch of them are in jail.

I'm do you have much hope that at the very least there will be something to like get these people out or is it is that maybe a bridge. I don't know, I don't know your country obviously, Well, you know, I'm curious, like, do you feel like there's much hope in pushing for that because it seems like, you know,

those people need to be free. Yeah. I mean most of these guys who are in prison and they have spent like, oh no, like twelve months in prison without any evidence, so yeah, all the world of the cops, I guess them. So after I know, like thirteen months for ten months, they will finally get released because they have they have no evidence, or they could they may find that the police they made up all the evidence, so they they finally go out. But I mean, you

spend like almost a year in prison, that's me. It's clearly like political. I mean you're a political prisoner, like they got They got you in prison with no evidence, without any profit process. They keep you in prison for a year, and who's gonna pay for that? I mean you lost a year. Yeah, we're talking so far about the sacrifices made here. What do you think with this new constitution, you and your your your fellow Chileans, what

are you gonna get? Like? How what are the changes that are seemed to be most concrete and the ones that you think are most important? Um? I think already it's been groundbreaking. I believe it's the only constitution ever to be written by a plurality of women and and also to have a representation from the indigenous peoples. And uh so it's already been very um inspiring and groundbreaking. Um. The President of the Constitutional Convention is a very inspiring

um Mapuche leader woman UM. And the good thing is that the right um it represents less than one third of the Constitutional Convention, so they don't have the power to block um anything uh as far as only by the right, so we will see. But they literally just

started writing the constitution last week. So yeah, yeah, it's still but that's I mean, that's that's a significant Is there a kind of a broad agreement that one of the things that needed to happen here was a redress of grievances between the indigenous people um and the and the state, Because it sounds like that's a significant chunk of what's what's been already agreed upon. Just but like how this is coming together? Yeah, so uh well, Nicok probably tell a lot more about this than I could.

But um, there's a big deal with the Uniteds with the indigenous people in the South and the government um basically waging war against the indigenous people. Actually, uh, two weeks ago Niera, the current right wing president um declared a state of emergency in the south and he just extended it for fifteen more days. So we have the military and the out um and they are you know, with the tanks and attaching attacking the the Mapuche and

other indigenous people there. And uh so yeah, a big aspect of Chile right now is the the the fight between and and the oppression of the government against the native people. And and it's a cultural thing too. I mean it's it's really heavy everyone. Most people here in Chile are are mixed, you know, between the the natives and and the white men and everything, and you know the Europeans um, but the Mapuche and the other indigenous groups have really not um received a lot of respect

in the last thirty years. And and so yeah, that's a big aspect. Yeah. For me, it's very inspiring to have like the pressing of this new constitution to be uh I'm a bit woman, so um yeah, I mean I guess that the most important thing, like the thing that this indigenous people want to claim is their land. I mean land for them is the most important thing. And that's what the government only for the last three

hundred years they have been taken from to them. Um. They are now like trying to claim again their their their space. So I mean, let's go that this new constitution will bring them back their land, um, the respect that they deserve. Now, there's been a lot of discussion about this, this new constitution as I think the term used as an ecological constitution, um, and it's it's the necessity of it addressing a lot of the climate, not just climate change, but like a lot of the things

caused by climate change, like unequal access to water. Um. There's been discussion asio costa of of the f I m A and GEO has has is arguing currently that the Constitution needs to enshrine a human right to water and recognize it as a common good. Um. It's obviously again they're writing it this week, so it's kind of

unclear if that's going to happen. UM. But I'm I'm wondering kind of what you what y'all think it's actually because as you've talked about, you know, with the protests ongoing, with the military being deployed in the South, this is not a finished fight. Um, it's just a fight that a lot of progress has been made on what do you think is reasonable to expect from this new constitution in terms of of of climate change, in terms of ecological justice. Also, I think the right of the of water.

So water is privatized here, so Chileans here in Santiago, we have to pay a Spanish company too for our water. Sure. Um, I would say, like the economy in this country is based on like structivism, So you have like the most productive things mining, and then you have like the forestry and all these things, like they have an enormous impact on the environment and the people until I mean the people who live right next to these kind of things,

they don't get anything from them. I mean, the poorest places are like right next to the forest trees, rightness to the mining. So it's kind of like we're creating a lot of income from these things, but we're not getting anything from them and all. I mean Also, it's not like a thing like let's get everything back to the state, I mean to the state, because it's it's

more than that. It's just like like um, ecological equality, equity. Yeah, yeah, it's not saying we should take all of the private water and give it to the state as much as it's saying everyone who lives here has a has a personal right to enough water to survive life. Yeah, so you have rounds where small little towns and uh, they don't have any water to drink because all of their water is to the going to the farm owned by Nessley to make, you know, to grow avocados to sell

to Europe and the United States. So, um, yeah, it's it's uh, it's it's a pretty crazy thing. One of the things that's most interesting to me about your situation is you you are in a place where not entirely similar dissimilar from the United States, you have a police in a military that are heavily dominated by by right wing ideology. Obviously, like the United States is partly responsible for that in your case, we we funded it for a very long time. Um and uh. And so it's

still an ongoing fight. But at the same time, clearly the people are unhappy enough with that situation and hold like that they were able to make. They were able to force the folks with with guns to um to recognize that they can't hold on to everything that they wanted to hold onto. And I I guess I'm what

how can we do that? Um, I'm I'm very impressed by like, and you know, watching from the sidelines, I was just so happy to see this not go where I think we were all scared it might go, you know, in either the direction with like Syria, where it turns into this horrible blood bath, or where everything gets crushed, you know it. And and I I'm wondering, like why you think on a on a broader scale, what do you think was responsible for those people with access to

the guns deciding we can't hold onto this. Like, Yeah, I'm just I'm so intensely curious about that because it's it's it's important for a lot of people and a lot of other parts of the world. Yeah, I don't know. I mean I think it was just the protests and the daily protests and and just getting out there, keeping

the pressure on. And at some point, you know, it's like, hey, this is not good for the economy, you know, like so all of the rich people, um, and you know, the ten families that are in control of you know,

sixty or seventy percent of the wealth of the country. Yeah, and they at some point had to recognize that this was something that that you know, had reached its boiling point and and they could no longer respond with just force because they tried it and it didn't work for months and it was just months and months of protests and um and uh. And obviously that caused a hit to the economy and that caused a hit to the

wallets of of the ultra rich. And so at some point they they realized that they had no other move to play than to accept it in some way and uh, and that's how we got, you know, this new constitution that is being written. One thing I was interested about is the geography of the protest because I know Chili very urban population. And also it was is it like it's like a quarter of the population or something lives in Santiago, like in in that area, And I'm yeah,

so sorry. I just want to note, if I'm not mistaken, there were only five. You have kind of communes instead of states, is what they're called. Um, like ten voted in favor of the referendum and only five voted against it. If I'm not mistaken, Well, communes are within cities like different It's like Burroughs in New York, but we have different regions instead of states. And um, and I think

they all voted. They might be like seven. But when you might be thinking of um of yeah, Robert, you might be thinking of communes in Santiago where Santiago is very um. So it's all on the Rio Mapocho, the river which goes east to west across the city and basically you have this like very rich part on the east and up into the hills and um, and then it gets poorer and poorer as you go to the west.

And um. Yeah for the vote for the constitution, Um, it was everyone voted for the constitution except for these communes, these ultra rich in the east. Amazing, Okay, just think it's something was curious about this was so when when the protests were going on, um, because you know Chile's had like huge protests before, I mean even the last decade or what I was interested still also with this time is like, well, hey, what do you think it is different about this than say like two thousand and

eleven ChIL wasn't thirteen? And then be in terms of like the geographic breakdown of where people are and where they're going, is it that you know? So so you have this, you have this classifying the city, but we're the working class districts, like we're people staying there in those graf structure where they like moving from those places

like to protest inside of the richer urban areas. I would say, like, I mean, yeah, we have like many protests in the past, but there were more kind of like I don't know, like students protests, and then you have like you know, like university protests. But when we have like this protest like that the one we have on TODWNSA nineteen, it's like something that unites everyone. I mean, you don't have to be a students, you don't have to go to university to protest. I mean it's something

that it's affecting everyone. I mean, the fairs of the metro, they affect everything on the in the quality in the country affects everyone. So um, I mean that I guess that's that's the thing that make this protests of the TOTASA nineteen unique in this term. Yeah, And I think it was actually a problem when all the protests were happening, A lot of people were saying, we can't keep going

to the plaza. You know, the cops are just going to wait for us in the Plaza and you know it's going to be a ship show and we need to you know, protest all over and there were protests

across Chile and every single major city. UM but I will say the majority of the protests have been um here in the plaza and close to Lamoneta where the presidential palace and UM but some of the most memoriab protests center to and and the Coast Nara Center, the tallest building in Latin America, which is a mall and a monument to this idea that Pinera has of um, the way of Chile being an oasis in South America. We're not like other countries where we're like the United States,

you know, where this capitalism capitalists oasis and exactly. Um but but yeah, so some of the most memoriabal protests, they weren't super common, but we're exactly that where the people said, you know what, we're not going to the plaza, we're going to Coast Nara Center where we're going to vist the coora, We're going to where the millionaires live, where they work, and um that those were really powerful and so that's when you started to see like all

of those banks and malls and just blocks and blocks of what the rich folk like to call Sanhattan, you know, Santiago Manhattan, the skyscraper part of the city, and it was just all boarded up, you know. Um because there there were definitely a couple of weeks where the protests went that way, and and and yeah, it was inspiring.

What I keep coming back to when I look about like why it worked, It wasn't because the front liners just kept the pressure up, because the front liners did in a lot of places here, the front liners stayed out well after everyone else stopped coming out. It's that the population kept up the pressure, like the there were like Chile as a as a as a nation, as a as a people kept up the pressure in in a in a pretty significant way, um as opposed to kind of fading back after the first couple of weeks.

And I mean it, I think, I'm sure the question of why it happened has a lot to do with, like you said, inequality, you know, things that have been going on for decades. It's it's a it's a complex situation, but it does seem like that's one of the big takeaways that if you can you can secure even in even in a pretty terrifying situation. A lot of concessions, a lot of of what you need, but but people have to have to keep putting themselves out there. Yeah. Absolutely,

I would say it's a couple of things. Um. One is um, as you mentioned, I think it's like the culture of protests here, you know, especially in the last ten years, like um with the revolution penguins inleven Um, you know, and there are and the feminist protests and um. So it's it's not something that just happened two years ago. It's the last decade or two has has and the people,

especially the young people, going out there and protesting. And that's that's one thing that's inspiring about Borid the candidate for president. The election is next month, so the left wing candidate, Boridge, and he came out of that movement. He was a student protester and a leader of the student movement. And so I think it's like it grew out of that, it grew out of kids in high school saying this is just what we do. This is normal. We go out there and protest when when ship happens.

And and the other thing is, yeah, you know we always say here in Chile, after the protests started. Um, it's not thirty pace those it's thirty years, you know, thirty years of neoliberalism, of this revolving door of center right and center left, and and just continuing on with the um economic oppress and and the other thing I feel like people don't understand is that, uh, you know, people either think Chile is like the United States or they think it's like Peru or something, you know, and

it's really neither. In Chile, the minimum wage is half of what the United States is, which is already terrible. But um, the cost of living here is almost the same as you guys in Portland. I mean, not the housing probably, but like you know, yeah, yeah, it's like Europe. You know, I could move to Berlin and live cheaper than here, you know, but it is hard to of

three times that, you know. So so I think it's that's the other thing is people just they they had no other choice, you know, and we're just poured down by by thirty years, you know, after twenty years of the dictatorship, thirty years of this terrible wages and um, just neoliberalism, and so so I think it's it's partially that and partially just like the culture of protests that grew out of the student movements in in the early

two thousand's. Mm hmm. Yeah. There was one thing that was interesting, also interested about that I don't remember seeing much of at the time, was what was Chilian organized labor doing during this It's a good question. Honestly, labor hasn't been a big part of the protest, at least from my point of view. You know, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it took a pretty strong hit during the Pinochet years, if I'm not mistaken, So there was kind

of that, Like, I guess that does make sense. Sure, Yeah, Honestly, I don't know a whole lot about labor history here in Chile, but um but yeah, it definitely is. I mean you would see you know, um union groups in the straits here and there, but um but but definitely they weren't a leading voice in the protest, I would say. Yeah. So,

I guess that leads into the other. I guess one of the other things that, from from my understanding, has been happening all across Latin America, but but in in chill in particular, is the rise of the informal sector and people just sort of not having access to sort

of stable wages in labor. And I'm wondering about Okay, so organized labors, like the classical unions aren't really involved in this, And I guess I'm interested in how if I'm right that that you're dealing with a lot of people who aren't doing traditional labor stuff, what was the process that was able to get people mobilized. It's like, especially people who just have no sort of like people, people who are in the informal sector and people who

aren't involved in the sort of older classical organizations. Yeah, I don't know. I guess I would just say it's like that that culture of protest um that comes from the young people, uh in the last twenty years. And then of course, um, the older folks who um, you know, uh lived through the dictatorship, and of course, um, there were an incredible protest at that time too. And and so I don't know, I mean, honestly, I was, even after living here for you know, six years, UM, I

was shocked. I never thought it would come to this. I never thought I would see, you know, over half a million people in the streets of Santiago, um. And and I would never never thought we'd see a new constitution. So, UM, I don't know, I don't, I don't have the answer

is it's uh, it's surprising to me. But UM, what I will say though, is I don't want to paint a Rosie portrait of Chile right now because if like we mentioned, you know, uh, tomorrow night, if you guys go to uh Galerria sema c I m A on YouTube or instagram. Um, they have a live feed of

the plaza for blocks from our house. And every Friday, you know, use the protests come out and sometimes the cops are there right away and they make a whole perimeter with two cops and all of the you know, tanks and everything, UM, blocking entrance to the plaza in every direction. Sometimes they let the people protest. But then at ten o'clock, you know, after the sun comes down, they come out there and you know, it's it's the same thing were a young woman was was killed a

couple of weeks ago. So and the other thing is that we have this election coming up, and uh they sky cast extreme right winger Pino Certista um just like they call him the Chilean Bosonaro um A real piece of ship. And uh he has, Um, he has really risen in the polls in the last month or two. UM. The right wing candidate Sitchell, who won the right wing primaries, UM, and was kind of going to be the successor to Pinera, the current right wing president. UM. Because in Chile, you know,

you can't run consecutive you can't have consecutive terms. UM. But Sitchell just kind of was not a great candidate and uh kind of blew it and and he went down and and now Cast is going up. And it's really scary to think about Cast getting into the second round, UM, where it will probably be him verse Boris and UM.

And so yeah, you know, even though the constitution was approved by seventy of the country, UM, you know, it's very possible that this election is going to come down to a runoff between a you know, moderate socialist like Boridge, UM, not the most extreme leftist in fact, known as Amario, you know, very yellow bellied here in Chile, that's his nickname. UM. But it will probably Right now, it's looking like it's going to come down to him and Cast, who is

like almost a return to the dictatorship. So it's it's pretty scary geez. So it's just this there's just so much fighting to do. Yeah, it's just so much fighting to do. Um, I mean I I uh yeah, um, do you have do any of you have anything else? You want to make sure you say or talk out before we kind of close out for the day. Oh no, I will say, like three days ago, I just pay

my I finally pay my whole student loan. Like like I've been working for more than ten years in my life since I finished the university, and I've been wasted, I mean all my savings. I just pay this fucking student loan. I guess that you guys in this in the States are like the same, like I don't know, except for people don't pay off their student stays there forever. And I just I just I would like to wish to the other, to the coming people that I mean, I don't wish that future for my from I mean

for the future people in this country. I don't wish anyone that I mean university, I mean all students should be um study for free. I mean it's like unconsiderable for me. Yeah, So that was a big part of it. And then also the I fit pay pension system here, which is totally privatized, and so you, uh, you, the

government just takes your money for retirement. You get to choose between four or five options which are private companies, and then um, if you make money, then the company takes you know, their chunk of your your retirement as the payment for managing your fund. But if you lose money, then it's on you. So literally, you know, Stephie's mom is like, you know, checking on her retirement, how did I do this year? It's like, oh, you lost two

thousand dollars this year. That's that's your requirement, Davis. You know, so you and you have you know, people here trying to live on you retirements of one hundred dollars a month. Wow, the military is receiving hey, thousand dollars a month. You know.

So that was a big part of it. Um. But I think what I always come back to here in Chile is, like we've said, the activist renamed the plaza Plaza, dig me Dad, And that's what it all comes down to is just we're not asking for you know, ponies, as Hillary Clinton would say, We're not We're not asking for the moon. We're just asking for basic dignity that

everyone deserves and it's as simple as that. So we just have to cross our fingers and hope that we've done enough that that you know, at a minimum, you know, people can live and retire with some dignity, that's all. Yeah, and uh, and that enough ecological justice can be gained that people can survive what's coming. Um. Which it's it's nice to see at the very least that that's a

central topic of discussion. Um. Whereas in the United States, everyone in power seems fine with just ignoring the increasing problems right now. So I don't know, you know, I again, I also don't want to be painting too rosy a picture as you've as you've repeatedly clear, there's a lot of of struggle left still, um. But at least you've

you've you've achieved a lot. And I I've just heartened by by hearing your story and and and hope that more people pay attention to what's happened there and try to take lessons from it, because I think we all need to be we all need to be gearing up um as as I'm sure you all will continue to continue to do anything else before we close out. UM. No,

that's it. I mean, I completely agree. I think that just like the messages that like, you know, better things are possible, like you know, real real change can happen. You know, like this started uh two years ago with high schoolers protesting, and now we're going to have a vote on a new constitution and it's going to be an ecological constitution, a blurry natural national constitution, um, with

respect for the indigenous people. It's it's uh, it's written by you know, an equal amount of men and women and everything, and and so yeah, just I think for me, it's so easy for us who have grown up in you know, under the gloom of neoliberalism, to to just get really depressed and fatalistic about it. And uh so for me, I feel the same way, like it's just such an inspiration and the Chilean and and especially the Chilean youth. Um. But but yeah, um, it's just an

inspiration and uh and proof that that change can happen. Um. But it's not just voting. And you know, like Chileans have elected socialists, you know, the former president was a socialist, but it was just the same neo liberalism bullshit. So I think, you know, voting is great, but like that's just not enough, and so you have to, um, you know, get out in the streets and try to organize and make real change in other ways as well. All Right, yeah,

I agree entirely. Thank you all for coming on. Um I couldn't appreciate it more and I hope you have a lovely rest of your day and a lovely continuing to uh stick it to the sons of bitches. It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.