Asheville's Crackdown on Mutual Aid Part 1

littering is. Unfortunately, I don't think any of us can explain why that exists as a charge for individuals and not for BP or SHELL or something, but such as a state. And so in the first episode, we're going to talk to Sarah. Sarah is one of the people facing these felony littering charges. Sarah's also been banned from parks in Nashville and which we're going to talk about.

So Sarah will explain a little bit of the process that led up to those felony littering charges, what the situations like in Asheville for mutual Aid in front How's people. And then we're going to talk to Meniba tomorrow. Maniba is one of the lawyers at the ACLU, and she will explain a little bit of the legal background to the case and what is sort of the way that the a CEOU is helping these people oppose the ban.

So we'll have two separate episodes, but we actually recorded them in a different order, So you're going to hear Sarah maybe referring to some stuff Maniva said, and Maniva saying Sarah will say some stuff. Just know that we recorded Mani the first because she had a pressing time commitment, but we felt that Sarah's interview gives you a better set up for listening to many of the interview tomorrow. Okay, hope you enjoy. We're going to start out talking to Sarah.

He's one of the people who is a quote unquote problem child in Asheville. We can yeah, yeah, okay, Sarah, did like to introduce yourself and tell us where you're a problem child? Yeah, my name is Sarah Norris. Um. It's so funny to be called something like a problem child because I'm mostly like what I am as a mom of a little kid. I'm a social work student,

like I am a career educator, um. And I am also, yeah, one of sixteen local organizers who who has been facing for almost the last year felony littering charges in conjunction with December twenty one. December twenty twenty one art spaced protest. Yeah, I'm sorry, did this bizarre thing has happened to you? Obviously, like on the face fit felines, felonines ring is a bizarre charge, and the fact that you are banned from

parks is also very weird. Alright, So let's maybe start off with, like the situations before this, what were you what we were doing in the parks that led to you being deemed unsuitable for parks? Gosh, no way, you'd have to ask those who deemed who so deemed us? But I can talk about what I did in parks for the year prior to being banned, and that's I was part of a collective whom who at the beginning of the pandemic um did like six times a week meals, coffee,

gear distribution in parks. Um. By the time I came around and started participating in these in these food sharings, in these community gatherings, UM, we were at like two or three times a week. And UM, really, what the way I spent my time in parks was Saturdays and Sundays. I brought my daughter to Aston Park and we brought food with us, gear with us, art supplies with us, or nothing with us. We just showed up as us and we hung out and we distributed food, tents, packs, socks, toothbrushes,

really whatever we could get our hands on. And towards the end of the year we got a little bookshelf and uh we were we were in charge of bringing books UM on this like little white plastic shelf and like talking to people about what they most wanted and see if they can match them up with whatever we randomly had. UM. It was really like sitting in the

sunshine and making sure the coffee thing was full. Um. And mostly just talking to people, people who were run house, people who are housed, people who walked by and were like, what's this? What's this picnic? Why is everybody like using glitter glue? Like, oh, because there's a five year old and that's what we do. UM. So so that's what mostly I did in Parks, UM. And this is this

this activity, um isn't the context of a city. Who I think in twenty twenty one, UM, I think we know there were at least twenty ones weeps of homeless encampments UM and a sweep like that name for some of us, really connotes violence, but I think it's important to name how violent those are. UM. A camp sweep means that folks have to leave the place where they've been living, and very often their belongings are then considered to be trash, are bulldozed over, are are at a

minimum lost to them. And this had happened over and over again in the city of Asheville. And yeah, there's a way that that being in the park weekly felt like a thing that happened in Ashville that was the opposite of feats, that was like we're here, We're all

here together, like here we are UM. And so the protest itself around which in the context of which like these arrests have come, happened in December and it was an arts based protest and was really about was in favor of sanctuary camping in the city of Ashville with sanitation services. That was the point of it. And there were like kind of standard protest related events on or sorry, arrests on Christmas night. So that's what UM Ashville police did.

And I think it's important just to note that there were not unhoused folks evicted that night on Christmas night, and no one who was there was pretending to be unhoused and was arrested. That's a strange narrative that the City of Asheville Police Department has set in open court. But there were standard sort of like misdemeanor trespass resisting officer arrest that night, including of journalists, and then these felony littering cases came much later and in a kind

of a different context. But that's what that's what happened around Christmas. Okay, yeah, it's already pretty weird, but I think, yeah, it gets waited. Yeah, yeah, So particularly if you were not arrested, then I went home and chrismusy stuff, and then at some point, well a letter comes to your doors saying that you've been charged with like felony littering.

So my own experience, um, was that people organizers in the mutually collective that I'm part of, who had been showing up in the parks week after week distributing food and gear, started getting arrested in mid January. For um, what we learned was something you could be arrested for, which was felony littering and or aiding into and a betting felony littering, which like honestly exactly and and some people had one, some people had the other, some people

had both. Um people were and this is you know, our understanding is that there's an unstated but generally followed policy by the City of Usha police de forma that they don't go arrest people at work. But they went to people's work with five cops and arrested them, um. And this began in mid January, and it continued um into into February and be arrest I mean, like honestly, the charges on the on the charge sheets would read

like crazy statues that weren't even felony littering. It seems like they it really seemed like they were making it up as they went along. Just from the what I can say is, I mean, I can't speculate about what they were doing, but there was a strangeness to to even like the documentation that people who are arrested received.

And then at the in the first week of March of last year, the letter that I received was similar to others that others other folks received that day, which was in an envelope from the Ashville Police Department, but was on Ashell Parks and ch stationary that told me that I had been banned from all city parks for a period of three years based on the commission of a celony. And this was how I found out that

I even had any charges, was through this letter. And that's true for more than me, that's true for a few defendants. So you know, not everybody who is now we understand to be banned from parks has even received one of those letters, but I did, and a few of us did, and there was on there a sort of like if you would like to appeal this, you have seven days, but the letter had been dated sort of five days before that, and we were like, wow,

what are we even doing? And so it's hard to it's hard to really communicate the like level of um both like sort of desperation and nonsense that was involved. The next day, but um, you know, so a few of us found this out. We were we self surrendered and because we were a lot of us around the courthouse in city hall, we were trying to figure out what does this letters even mean, Like what does it mean to appeal this? What does it mean to be banned?

And so we trapsed around city hall, city offices, the courthouse trying to get some sort of answer like what here, we've got these what does this mean? And every place sent us somewhere where they were like, we don't know what that is. Park Snart said, we don't know what that is. Go talk to the police. We said, we don't know what that is. Go talk to the magistrate. The criminal magistrate said, oh, this seems like a civil

magistrate thing. So there's like a group of five mutual aid workers, you know, sort of just trapesing around trying to find out like can I do I get to go give out sandwiches intense in the park this week or not for three years? What is? And who can help me figure this out? And no one could and what insod? We never got an answer that day. We just had city employees looking at us, often with a like wow, we don't We're sorry this is happening to you.

This seems really dumb expression. And eventually via email it became clear that they were like, we don't know what this process is, but we're going to tell you soon. Thank you for your email, you know, saying you're going to appeal it and over time, we kind of got a little bit more like, Okay, we're going to schedule the hearings. You will have a hearing eventually, Like okay, we asked who will be these are, like for what

what is a hearing? And they didn't know, and then like, oh, okay, well there will be some police officers there and you know, the city representative from the city Attorney's office, and you will have a chance to provide information. And you know, at this point, like none of us, I think none of us had maybe we'd had adamin appearances, but like at this point, we're dealing with felony littering charges that

we don't understand. We're trying to figure out whether we can continue to provide community care in the way we've been doing for years, and it seems like what the city is offering is a chance to come and maybe entrap ourselves. Like it doesn't make any sense to us. And so you know, those of us who had presentation that we could speak to said, oh, we're coming, and have you heard the recordings? No, Well, if you would like them, I'm happy to send them. Mine is particularly

I can't listen to mine. I have a huge nervous system response, Um, but mine is my my attorney asking over and over again questions of the of the representative, the city attorney. It's not it's John Maddox, who's um

named in the ACLU demand letter. Um, just saying over and over again, like what at that point, we haven't even seen any discovery, Like we don't know what information this is even based on, Like there are two cops in uniform pointing body cams that assume I have to assume pointing body cams at me, um, and in this hearing, and my lawyer is just asking over and over again, like upon what evidence is this space? And they just said over and over again, you're here to give information.

We are not giving any information. My lawyer asking what is the standard of review here? Like how upon what

is this base? And the parks director just saying, like my decision and the and and then and then you know, what are the what is the remedy if this is if the appeal is denied, there's none, then the appeal is denied like and so it really was for me one of the moments where I realized like, oh, the city is is pretty hell bent on keeping a bunch of sweethearts who give out tens and sandwiches out of the park and they're gonna like they're they're upsistance in here.

But I'm happy to share that recording. We have all of them reported. Yeah, I'd like that performance of like sub legal ceremony well and like yeah and and like pseudo in a dangerous and extra judicial way, like I had no protections there, right, Yeah, it was like yeah, there's I think to respond to. Yeah, like these these are these these are Star Chamber proceedings, like like the

King of France is going to walk out. I just think it seems like such a British thing, like yeah, you told me this in Britain and you've been like shooting the Queen's swans or something. I'd buy it. You know.

Here we are in the land of the free. You know that well, And I think the equivalent of shooting the Queen's swunts here is um hanging out with poor folks in a park, um and in ways that inconvenience or that apparently inconvenience the folks who go who pay money because you have to to play tennis at a public tennis court which is like right by Aston Park and and we can go in in a minute as much as you want to to what you saw as far as like their attempts after their attempts to pass

to sneak through an ordinance. Um now we know quite clearly from public records directed at at food sharing in Austin Park. Yeah, it's really I keep thinking about that that Helder Kamar aligned I When I give food to the poor, they called me a saint. When I asked why they are poor? They call me a communist. It's like they really seem to have blown all the way, Like they didn't even get to part two. They were just like wait, hold on, you're giving food to the poor,

like it is time for a military response. It's just it's just horrible. Yeah, and being banned from parks for three years has a pretty big effect on my on my little life, you know, like there are constitutional um aspects to it that matter far beyond me and and

which matter in many ways more to me. But the fact right now is that like I can't legally take my young child like to the park, buy her house without risking a rest for misdemeanor trust house, um and and to my knowledge, I won't be able to for three years. Um, and you know they've succeeded in getting us out of the park. They caused the harm to they disrupted community care. They did it. They didn't need

the ordinance. Um. You know, it does happen. Food distribution happens, but it's in a place that really isn't the same. Like my daughter can't go there. She has some sensory stuff like being in the loud place that it is right now, it really doesn't work. So yeah, there's this. There's this very um like the scopes of all of this from how Asheville as a city views and treats the folks who live on the street here who the

city has most abandoned. There's the legal mechanisms, the like very strange way they are like doubling down on criminalization of folks doing community care. And then there's just like the really day to day personal personal bits of this that affect all of us in different ways, And a felony would affect lots of us in different ways, Like it endangers professional licensure, Like I'm trying to get a

social work license, like people it endangers professional licensure. Of course, I right to vote, housing and employment and you know, I'm the like middle aged, white, middle class mom, second graduate degree person in the group. I am not really representative of our group. Like folks are in a lot less folks are in a lot more precarious and material circumstances than I am, and so much so that like, you know, it feels safe for me to come on

this podcast. It doesn't feel safe for everybody to come on a podcast. It feel safe for me to have my name out, like, um, it doesn't for everybody. And I think, um, yeah, I think that that's something that has to be named too. Of like how what I threat this is to folks future material will being as well as currently like folks have most housing over this,

Folks have lost employment over this, like um Jesus Christ. Yeah, Like even if you're found completely innocent or whatever, like this is robbed your time or people at the housing or people's their jobs that caused stress and in that way, you know, it does feel and often to us like the like the punishment is the process. Yeah, it's just harassment. So I don't know if I feel are updated on like there are five of us being taken to trial.

Is that something you know? Okay? Yeah, So yeah, but our listeners probably aren't so explain like so right after this happened or at some point actually happening. So I know when we started speaking, I was like, well, I'd pr ra the shit out of all your city council people, and you were like, we already have. Yeah, so because there was some stuff in there that was just weirdly Yeah, can you explain what you got from, like this has

got a problem jib monica come from, among other things. Sure, yeah, gosh, it's so even talking about it, I have such a reaction and um that I can feel um and I should say, you know, I speak about this to my name, not about the city the text necessarily, but I speak about the situation to a lot of people because it does feel to us like you know, they're also I think they would like us to be ashamed, but we're not ashamed of what is happening to I mean, that's

part of the degradation of a quick system. And so you know, all of my neighbors know what is happening to me, all of the people that I work with, um in the various like uh, school related jobs and such that I do, and to a person, everyone in Asheville starts with disbelief. They're like no, and then I'm like yes, and then they're just so disappointed, like they're just they're so appalled. Often people say the number in nineteen eighty four. Often people are like, wow, I really

I didn't know. Some people did know, you know that the city was was like this. Um, but you know that's that's sort of paralleled my experience in a way, just like disbelief and then and then disappointment. UM. But yeah, we recently it's intensify and recently seeing the publicly available communication between council members UM, and and I think, UM, I want to be careful and I don't have it in front of me, and so I don't want to

I don't want to misquote it. But what I can say, UM, is that anybody can go find on the City of Aashables public records or posts. Anybody can go get those now because they've been requested. Um. And so they're publicly available.

And we have texts between council members that that are kind of debate, that that are in contemplation of an ordinance that would restrict food sharing in public places to to require permitting in contemplation of that, like we have we have texts from council members calling um those who do those who do fouturing ask and park problem children UM and saying that it's a shame that the problem children have ruined it for the rest of the class.

We have we have one saying, like, you know, probably if if we go ahead, we city Council go ahead with this, with this ordinance, there will be a lot of protests and a lot of pushbacks, which of course there was once it came out UM. And we have the other council members saying like, yeah, that might be UM, but if permitting is the only way to get them

to stop, then so be it. And I mean I read that, and I have a variety of reactions, but mostly just like a kind of nauseous disappointment UM in And this is not true of all council UM because some of some some folks have tried to like understand the gap um being filled by folks who give out food and gear in a part um. And I think some of the council and have and have recognized it

as a gap um that is being filled. And I think some are are so aware of what it says about the city that folks have to show up in a park and give out food and gear and there's never enough of either. Um, they're so aware of what that lays bear about the abandonment that the city practices of those who live here that they can only see that and they can only be angry with us, right

and call us problem children like forty three. Yeah, well you can see the sort of light like the kind of just like petty dictatorship mind that they've gotten themselves into. We're like they can't see the people who like, you know, nominally they're supposed to be serving, right, but like, okay, we know how far that goes, but they can't see like you as anything other than just like a child.

Because that's the kind of like this is the sort of dictator brain that they've that they've had from like holding this power. It's it kind of reminds me of like how he's through the fourteenth He said, like the state is me and therefore a tax on my reputation or like a tax against the state. Like yeah, that's how it feels like you're being treated us by making them look bad. And I don't know if you saw this also in there, but um, on the day that

the arrests happen. So so those discussions about the ordinance were I think a little earlier in January that which actually took that. Um. But there's a there's one that came right on the day of the first arrests for Lani lettering that um or someone asks like, can those arrested be banned from certain places? Um? And and we know now yes, but it is it's a lot to see that. It's a lot to see what looks um, what looks so deliberately like depriving us of the right

to be in a park? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, and so where is where's the five you are going to trial? Yeah? Unknown number of people are banned from parks in Nashville. Yes, yes. My understanding is that we someone has been told, um, oh, we don't keep records of that, which also doesn't make a lot of sense. Yeah, how can you force a bath if we don't have a record of who's bay?

Yeah and I just quoted on that, but UM, but my understanding is that, like, um, is that that has been the It's like, oh no, there aren't records that we can that can be made public about that because there's complete aren't the records? Um? What does that? Just seems like that's just like incredibly bizarre secret police shit of like, yeah, no, we have like we have we have lists that don't exist of people who are banned from spaces and we won't tell you what they are

because I don't existe. Yeah, you'll find out when this what team comes from behind the swings and yeah yeah, yeah, yeah terrible. So yeah, you're banned from the park, you're facing you're going to trial. Yeah, five of us um have been have been scheduled for trial, and the other folks um have been kind of what's called taken off the calendar, so they don't have nothing's dismissed um, but um, but they're not scheduled. There's no there's no next court

date for them. Okay, so when when will you if you don't mind saying, when would your trial date be? Our trial date right now is set for February twenty seventh. Well okay, so you're coming up, it's coming right up. Yeah, that's tough. We'll make sure we get this out before then. How can people support you, support the work that you uh not doing in parks anymore? How can people help you through this. I'm sure it's a really stressful trial prices. Yeah,

thank you for asking. Um. So we post updates in a few different places. UM, But we don't have our own Instagram right now because we're we just don't. But our our defendant statements get released in a few different places, including at a VL survival on INSTAGRAMM. We also have a website where we always post our own statements and also all the press that comes out about us, and

that is abl Solidarity dot no blogs dot org. We have a VENMO which is used that those funds are used for attorney fees um and and frankly, like you know when someone loses housing or their car breaks down and they have had trouble finding employment because they have Felny lettering charges against them, and it's also used for material needs in that way, and that is a VL defendant fund and all that's actually on the website too.

You can find those um. And honestly, it matters so much that people just know this is happening, you know, when I tell people in Asheville, like more people know now than did before. When I tell people outside of Asheville, there's very much a like I thought about coming there. I heard it was cool. They do want those who make not just like a living from tourism, but those who make tons of money from tourism are certainly invested in thinking that it's really cool and coming to spend

your money here. And it's not cool in the ways that they want you to think it's cool. It is cool because neighbors show up for each other and you can come here and we'll talk to you about that. But there's a way that, like people knowing what this place is really like does matter. And there's a way that honestly, people just like sending us like they're they're beautiful energy and hope really matters too, Like that actually

that actually really doesn't matter. So they can send us through beautiful energy and hope and material contributions as they might have them. Yeah, I'm sure people will because horrifically fucked up. I wanted to ask what it's the sentence range for felony literary Yeah, um, so um, it's the lowest class of felony. As it happens, none of us have any criminal history, we'd be facing felony probation, and so that could that there's a range there of whether

that probation is supervised or unsupervised. UM. There's a range of how long it would be, there's a range um of restitution in terms of community service, UM and and I actually don't have the paper in front of me that says what the range of those things are, but I feel like it's eight to twelve months on probation um and a lot of that is simply at the discretion of incentencing um and um. And I think that that there are some puzzible restrictions on just like being

able to leave the state. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, sorry, christ Like, this is fully fucking sent me now because a guy, a man called Robert Wilson in San Diego was arrested for hate crimes because he assaulted his gay neighbor. Since he was arrested, he's driven around San Diego and La dressed as a Natzi, sometimes with horrifically anti semitic slogan, has just left the country and is living in Poland because because fucking like somehow, sorry,

I'm sorry, I love it. This is fully fully sent me now too. Yeah yeah, what is wrong with this ship? Yeah there was something else you wanted to get to you. Yeah, I think I wanted to name so. You know, people are so in a way like I wish I had a super cut of everyone I've ever said the word felony, lettering too, just like over and over again. Maybe I'll

come to Asheville and just vox pops pop. Yeah. Um so there's a way that you know, of course, that's just like and if you add on aiding and a betting, which we've all been bumped up to follow me, littering, um but or sort of but but but the mystemar

is conspiracy to commit no, yeah, what's next? Reco charge exact? Yes, so um so on its face, you know, it has this ring of absurdity, and of course like it is, you know, a lot of the press about us, you know, they'll go talk to someone at the School of Government who says, like, well, this is baffling and at the very least seems like a misapplication of the statute, which is about um, huge amounts of waste often being like

dumped by businesses. Um. But I think it's it's it's telling that a couple maybe a month or two ago, there was an article in the Citizen Times, a local paper, about US and a company, Waste Pro, which had dumped an entire dumpster's worth of trash. Now I'm like out somewhere outside of UM where it should have been like in the landfill, And but it was all about like how actually they had followed procedure because there was like maybe a little bit of a battery fire or something.

There was something going on with it where they they weren't supposed to bring it in, so they just had

to dump it UM. But in the course of this article UM they interviewed a lot of people about like, well, what's going on with like litter in general and like big amounts of litter, and our case was never mentioned, but they did talk to some folks who who do river clean up, an organization called GreenWorks, and that person said, you know, sometimes there are like there's huge amounts of dumping that happens, and we call the city and they say, yeah,

that's illegal, but we don't actually prosecute that, and like, you know, that's the sort of thing also that seeing in print, I'm just like, what what sort of strange like dystopian novel am I living in where the city is so upfront that like, oh no, like we wouldn't prosecute felony littering, but when it comes to aiming to disrupt a kind of community care and political speech that they don't like, they're willing to expend an incredible amount

of resources on it. You know, like the number of resources that have gone into this would have funded like sanctuary camping with sanitation services like for years, for years, and you know, I think you alluded though maybe this is in the future of the podcast, like to the way the City of Asheville or our lawyers have been clear that when you when you look at the City of Asheville's like public apnouncements and the way that they talk about U homelessness, it does seem like, oh wow,

we're really we're really trying to get on this um. But at a recent meeting where a consultant group often referred to as like yeah, that other like that that consultant group from now because it's happened to over and over again, presented findings about like what should actually be done to end unheltered homelessness. Here presented findings to the

city Council and accounting commissioners. No one was allowed to talk except for this huge meeting no one was allowed to talk except for council members and commissioners and those who were presenting. But a man who actually has experienced was experience with homelessness got up and talked anyways, and he was interrupted by the mayor and like that's telling in its own right. Um, that's that's telling in its

own right. Also telling is that later um also not allowed to speak, a local pastor got up and said, you know, I saw that happen. You know, like what we need to be doing is actually listening to the folks who've experienced this and like data, yes, we need data, but we also need to like actually listen to the

voices of what's going on. And he used the phrase um, which I think was echoing the man who had spoken earlier spiritual death, and said that this he thinks as a pastor, that Ashville is in a moment of spiritual death. And in a way, that's why I say, like we need you, We need your material contributions to us as defendants to collective care. Like when we have extra money

in that defendive fund, we just give it away. Some people can buy more tents, and we need like we need some hope because Ashville is in this moment where it's as a city, it's making choices that seem so misaligned not just with like the image that it would like to sell to tourists, but like with with the people who live here and are actually like about it day to day in a neighbor's caring for a neighbor's way, Like really misaligned with what we actually want and what

we actually are capable of offering each other. Yeah, yeah, it is deeply sad that, like we've created this abstraction of society which is being entirely antisocial, like no one wants no one. Yeah, no reasonable person would do that. But we've got the state which interiacts on our behalf and is doing it. Yeah yeah, which also is probably I know, to editorialize for a second. Often people will

make this argument. I see it specifically around gun laws, but with other laws to where this law won't always be enforced. I only use it if they need it, if they have to get a bad person. They will use it if anybody threatens their interest, their shit right.

So it was extensively mobilized for a ghost gun law here, which made some bizarre things illegal, like the bank stick, which you use for spear fishing is now scan and a felony, and like there were definitely boomers who have dozens of those in the garage right and don't keep up on local audiences and are now in theory at

risk of committing a felony. And then obviously the response to that from the councilors, Oh, well, we wouldn't charge him, like who we can't trust the state to be benevolent when it's your experience has shown it's anything but and you know we And I can say this personally because I've spoken I've spoken to people in city government or in state government who I've just said like, hey, did

you know this is happening? Um? And and they're clear about how Um sure it sounds Nettie but the city but like that that we as a group have been painted as particularly dangerous. And that part to me is like, I mean, don't do this to anybody, you know, don't

do it to anybody. But the part where where what's going on is like it's is this strange justification, um, with the idea that that we are dangerous people who deserve to be taken you know, who need to be taken out of a park who need to not be allowed to be in a park, you know, is particularly easily disproved by anyone who actually like hangs out with us, knows what, knows who we are and what we've done, but not when it's just like a weird whisper campaign

in the in the halls of city government, like, oh no, they're bad, Like there's bad um. Like we've heard the lies that they've told about us. Some of them we have in um in you know, public records requests like um that we haven't even talked about. But it's it's a it's a really strange thing to be to be painted that way. Yeah, yeah, it's basign. Again, I'm sorry it's happening to you. And so I think to wrap up,

maybe again you could just give that. Then most people can support materially and yeah, you know, if there's any other social media account where people can follow along, where people can send their support and best wishes that, yeah, that's great. Our Venmo is a VL defendant fund, and yeah you can so on Instagram. We're easy to get you through a VL survival and there's a way to contact us through our website. We can have a little we have a little email. I'll be so cute to

get some supportive emails. And that website is a VL solidarity dot no blogs dot org. Amazing. Thank you all so much. Thank you for giving us your time. I'm sorry that you dealing with the farious state bullshit, all right, So that wraps up. Are into you with Sarah. Tomorrow we'll be talking to Maniba from the ACOU, the American Civil Liberties Union, and she will be giving us a legal perspective and some more insight into this case. We'll look forward to talk with you then. It Could Happen

here as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.