Cool Zone Media.
Hello everyone, welcome to it could Happen Here.
My name is Danel Kurd and I'm an associate professor of political science and a researcher and analyst of Arab ben, Palestinian politics and authoritarianism. More generally, today I have on the podcast. Ben lorber Ben is a senior research analyst
at Political Research Associates. He's worked as a journalist, organizer, and movement builder for over a decade and published on right wing social movements, Israel, Palestine, Jewish culture, and other such topics for outlets such as The Nation, Salon, Jewish Currents, and more. He's the co author of Safety through Solidarity, a radical guide to fining anti Semitism, book published in twenty twenty four. I'll link in the show notes for sure. Ben, Welcome to Ahead Could Happen Here?
Thanks for having me so.
I thought we could get started with you just telling us about yourself and your research.
Yeah, yeah, Well I came to the topic of anti Semitism, I guess, you know, in some ways, I mean as an American Jew, you know, it's a part of my life. But in many ways I came to it politically through
the Palestine solidarity movement. Over a decade ago, I spent a lot of time in the West Bank doing solidarity work, and I worked for some years for Jewish Voice for Peace as their campus organizer, and I saw, you know, kind of firsthand how charges of anti Semitism are used to shut down descent, to stop Palestinian Arab and Muslim students from you know, asking their university to not use their tuition dollars to bomb Gaza.
You know.
So at the same time, you know, we all saw the rise of the art right in the first Trump administration, and yeah, you know, like many, I started digging into you know, what do these folks believe? You know, the anti Semitism in their rhetoric was undeniable and.
A long story short.
Since twenty nineteen, I work with political research associates to yeah.
To monitor the radical right.
I write a lot about anti semitism and how it animates the MAGA movement and rising authoritarianism. And also I also focus a lot on how you know, the right uses these charges of anti semitism to go after their political opponents and to shut down criticism of Israel's genocide.
Yeah, I mean, it's been something to behold to watch actual antisemites accuse others of anti semitism, and the irony seems to be lost on all university administrators apparently. But I've listened to you a couple times on different podcasts, and you know, read your work, I have your book. I realized that I really don't understand the contours of
modern anti semitism, like maybe because I'm an immigrant. So the tropes that they're talking about, the tropes that they're using, it really is a learning experience for me to like be like, oh, I didn't realize these are the stories that they're telling. With that said, you know, you recently published something for Convergence magazine titled something like what anti Semitism is and Isn't And again I'll link in the show notes.
So and I thought that was really useful.
What are kind of the main takeaways for people to know from that piece? Yeah?
Yeah, you know, in some ways, anti Semitism has some unique features, you know, and it also it reminds us of say, you know, Islamophobia, with tropes that there's a
grand Muslim conspiracy to take over the West. You know, anti Semitism follows that kind of similar conspiracy theory logic that really is at the heart of MAGA, you know, and basically it's a conspiracy theory that says, you know, there's a Jewish cabal you know, at the top of the government and politics, you know, society, the economy, the media, you know, culture, basically whatever authoritarians oppose and whatever they
want to rally their base against. You know, they can use this this image of you know, things are not what they seem. I mean, there's kind of the hidden power structure, and it's it's Jewish. I think a lot of what MEGA does really well and what the left tries to do but in a different way, is you know, to tap into people's frustrations that the rent is too high, or that they feel alienated by the modern world, or you know, the more racist frustrations that their neighborhoods are changing.
You know, there's a lot of frustrations and grievance that MAGA can tap into in our world, a vast inequality and desperation, and you know, blaming someone at the top is very useful to channel those grievances. And that's kind of the way that anti Semitism has worked for over a century. I mean, even before fascist movements of Inner
War Europe that led to the Holocaust. You know, there were Russian ulternationalists who who used documents like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, you know, to tell millions of Russian peasants, hey, don't join with you. More radical movements for liberation, you know, those are controlled by the Jews, right, So, you know, the these tropes especially I think of Jews controlling progressive movement, you know, Jews behind mass integration or
BLM or LGBTQ rights. They're very powerful for authoritarians, you know, to use and sometimes they say Jews outright. Sometimes they use dog whistles like George Soros or cultural Marxists or globalists.
But it's the same kind of idea.
Yeah, the Heritage Foundation guy saying globalists, we're talking about down to globalists.
Yeah. So, I mean lots of.
Political ideologies use anti Semitism, and there are of course a lot of intersections and overlaps. But I think what I particularly found confusing, or like the piece that I was least aware of when I said I didn't understand the contours of what this looked like was the Christian nationalism bit, how has like the Christian nationalist movement used antisemitism and how has that movement kind of progressed and developed.
Yeah, that's a good question, you know, because we're so used to the Christian right saying that they're built on a timeless foundation of Judeo Christian values, right. You know, I think in the West, you know, after the Holocaust, with the rise of US support for Israel, it became very common to have a kind of you know, philo Semitism on the Christian right of saying, you know, we are the world's you know, most valiant defenders of the Jews.
In the eighties it was against godless Communism, or after nine to eleven it was you know again radical Islam. And you know that in itself has a lot of anti Semitism, right, I mean, I think, you know, listeners might know about, you know, the Christian Zionists, you know, a movement which supports Israel because of end times fantasies in which Jesus is going to return in most Jews are going to perish or converture.
Christianity, you know.
So there's a lot of anti Semitism in the kind of we love the Jews we really really love the Jews attitude of Christian nationalists. But you know, more recently also, you know, there can be even a turn away from that. You know, like that was always like a kind of contingent phenomenon that you know, arose in a very particular kind of post war, you know, sort of neoliberal context.
And the world is changing and there's a lot of Christian nationalists now who you know, who might say, let's just drop the Judeo and let's have a Christian nationalist movement in the US and in the West, and they're a lot more skeptical of US support for Israel, and you know, it's kind of like, you know, it's not surprising.
I guess if you look at the history of anti Semitism and you know, you know, from the Crusades onward, or the Spanish Inquisition, you know, whatever, you have triumphalist Christian movements that are allied with state power, it goes south for the Jews pretty quickly. In many ways, it's not surprising that you know, today the majority of Christian
country we live in as it gets more chauvinists. You know, Judaism has long been kind of the main sort of theological other for Christianity, and so all those tropes are coming back that Jews kill Jesus or you know, or Jews don't worship the same God that we do, Like it can be very easy to otherwise Jews as well as obviously you know, Muslims and you know, and non believers and every other you know, and and Christians who don't meet their definition of the good Christian.
So it's yeah, so this is maybe a dumb question, excuse.
My ignorance, but is Kenneth Owens a Christian nationalist? Like would she be classified as such?
Yeah, definitely, She's Catholic.
I mean, that's the thing. There's you know, so many varieties of Christian nationalists. But yeah, you know, she's definitely called for Christianity to be at the center of American public life and for the American social order to be structured by like a far right vision of Christianity.
Yeah, m hmmm hmm.
Okay, So I was on the right track there because I did not listen to her interview with Norman Finkelstein, who is a American Jewish professor and writer who has been quite vocal on the Palestine issue and written you know a number of books. But you know, he's generally seen as on the left. He goes on Candace Owens's podcast and does a very long interview, and I could only still make the snippets that the Jewish Currents podcast put out. But that's what I was really confused hearing
some of those tropes that she was using. I recognize now that they are Christian nationalist tropes, anti Semitic tropes about like Jews wanting to enslave Christians, And I had no idea that people believe these things anyway. It's a larger problem, I guess. But yeah, so Candes Owan's host, Norman Finkelstein, Tucker Carlson has been repeatedly hosting like Palestinian Christians.
So there was like a nun and.
There was a priest. Yeah, so yeah, what's going on here? How can we explain this kind of merging?
Yeah, it's very confusing when parts of the far right can adopt talking points that sound from one angle to be left wing. You know, in some ways it's it's not just related to Israel Palestine. I mean, you know, Trump ran both times on a kind of economic populace platform, you know, and he also you know, as he said recently when he met Soon Mamdani, he said, we agree on some things.
You know, some Bernie owners went to me.
So you know, the far right is always trying to kind of you know, co op some sort of you know,
left wing ideas at times. But yeah, you know, around Palestine, I think since the start of the genocide, you know, MAGA pundits like Kennice Owens and Tucker Carlson have you know, started to get you know, very critical of the US Israel relationship, and you know, some of it is mobilizing, you know, genuine outrage at the images of the genocide all of our phones every day obviously, and some of that also as part of this kind of America First, we don't want any of our tax paramount need to.
Fund you know, foreign wars. And that's you know, very reasonable and understandable.
You know. The way they bring an anti Semitism is to say, you know, the reason in the US supports Israel, it's not because of imperialism or colonialism, you know, because that would indict their own you know, nationalism, but you know it's because of a Jewish cabal, right, So you know, they focus on Jewish Zionists in the US and in Israel obviously, who they think have kind of yet enslaved the US government or their you know outsized global power, you know, over finance and media is.
The root cause of the US support for Israel.
So that's what they mobilize, and they bring into it a lot of Christian nationalist themes, right, because if the US is a Christian nation and here's this state with you know, a Star David on its flag that claims to speak for world Jewry, it's easy to kind of then use those Christian tropes and say, oh, this is the same old Jewish enemy you are kind of you know, rearing its head again.
So yeah, it's a mess. Yeah, it's a mess.
Yeah, very conveniently removing American complicity from the equation, removing empire from the equation. It's been disturbing, I have to say, obviously on the basic level, Like this sounds trite to even say, but obviously, like rising anti Semitism has been disturbing.
But then it's also been disturbing kind of the you know, mental gymnastics that are going into some people or like some people are using to justify this turn on the far right, as if the Tucker Carlson's and the Kendice Owens of the world like genuinely care about Palestine, you know, And so there is this like this ridiculous assumption that like, oh, we can, we can turn people on the right. And I think you see it also with like the discussion
that's emerged after Momdanie met with Trump. It's like, oh, the you know, it's not really a lie.
Have to write it to the bottom top. I was like, what are we talking about here? What are we talking about? This is not yeah, what was your definition of the left? Exactly?
I think we have to remember that these are the same forces.
Who are you rounding up and deporting our neighbors, and who are you jailing you know, Mahmu Khalil and somebody in other dissidents and they, yeah, they want to see a future vision of America that has no room for most of us in it.
So it's it's important to keep that in mind.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So we have this mess. We have the right wing really tried to weaponize this moment and using allegations of anti summitism to attack universities, to attack political dissidents, et cetera, et cetera, and then we have kind of the establishment Jewish organizations, organizations like the Anti Defamation LEE, the ADEO.
What's happening with them? What are they doing in this moment?
Yeah, I mean they're very complicit. You know.
The short answer is they're really part of it. I mean since the first Trump administration, but really long before.
I mean, if you want to really, you know, tell the long story of how the ADO has been complicit with Empire, it goes you know, at least back to you know, the seventies when the ADEL was you know, spying on left wing groups along side sides on fascist groups, or you know, even all the way back to the fifties when the ad L was complicit in uh, you know, the McCarthyist you know, purges and supported the state's actions against you know, the Rosenberg.
So we can go way back. But you know, basically the reason these organizations.
Exist in many ways, like so much of their funding, priorities, and their programming, you know, has become about you know, defensive Israel. Like so many American institutions, they're hollowed out. They're not democratic, you know, they don't reflect the priorities of most American Jews. You know, they're you know, bought and sold by a small donor class. And you know, so they you know, have made combating BDS and supporting
Israel the entire focus of their existence. And yeah, you know, somewhere around the last year, last two years, probably since October seventh, you know, people like Jonathan Greenblatt at the head of the ADL, you know, made the calculation that they're going to go, you know, ride or die on teaming up with whoever they can to suppress, you know,
the movement for Palestinian freedom. And so yeah, they've been closing up to the you know, to the Trump administration, you know, more than to give them a team bit of credit. And the first Trump administration, you know, they were saying, if there's a Muslim band.
Sign me up.
But Jonathan green Blatz, you know, tweet in twenty seventeen. You know, they did put up some resistance, even though they were also still quite bad in a lot of ways.
But you know, now they're just you know, all in.
They're trying to curry whatever access they can to the Trump administration, even to the extent of taking down there their anti bias initiatives, you know, shuddering a lot of their anti extremism work, you know.
Saying like they aren't going to teach critical race theory.
You know, they're they're completely just you know, trying to keep a seat at the table. But the irony is the Magan movement doesn't even want them there. You know, some people in the administration are probably still working with the ADL, but you know, you have FBI Director Cash Betel saying we aren't going to work with you because now they think they is anti Christian, you know, which
is it's self kind of anti Semitic. So it's yeah, it's uh, they're kind of in this losing battle where they're trying to ally with you know, rising fascism and the hope that they can find Jewish safety that way and you know, can suppress you know, Israel's critics.
But it's a it's a fool's bargain. We're seeing that playout in real time right now.
I mean, I've never seen such a self own in my life, like a self goal, you know, where they defended Elon Musk and then Nazi salute and then Elon Musk calls them an anti Christian organization and like and calls them out. Then I mean, we have all of these kind of outrageous incidents, but the fact that the Idel kind of stepped away from its civil rights work, Like very clearly you've stepped away from its civil rights work.
They missed the moment.
Jewish Currents has been publishing on this. I mean, lots of people you're self included, have been publishing on this about how the ADLs.
Like audits are skewed.
Yeah, for lack of a better term, I'm wondering if maybe you can speak to that.
Yeah, I know that was a great piece by actually the co author of my book, Shane Burley, you know, wrote that along with Naomi Bennett, who's another great analyst, you know, really looking at their data and you know, seeing that you know, in their twenty twenty i think it was twenty twenty three on it of anti Semitic incidents, they included like just a huge, you know, swath of pro Palestine rallies. If you go to their data, it says, you know, speakers chanted from the river to the sea,
Palestine will be free. And so that was an anti Semitic incident according to the Adel. And this was you know, hundreds of incidents, you know, including some rallies that were led by Jewish Voice for Peace Right. So now you have you know, Jewish groups who are anti Semitic for you know, for calling for Palestinian freedom. So it's just you know, that kind of counting, which it's a departure from previous years. So even methodologically it's it's very unprofessional.
They get to say, oh there's been a startling rise in anti Semitism. They're expanding their own parameters for what counts as an incident, you know, so they're kind of cooking their own books. But it does a disservice to the you know, to the real fight against anti Semitism.
I think one thing that Shane and Naomi pointed out and that article is that you know, there is a rise in in white supremacist groups like Patriot Front, you know, who are holding rallies and harassing Jewish institutions, you know, alongside harrassing trans folks and black communities and many other groups. And you know that's you know, ironically undercounted in the audit.
And if you have data that equates you know, real neo Nazism to people saying Palistine should be free, it's just you know, discredits the entire fight against anti Semitism. So it's it's dangerous to democracy, it's dangerous, you know, to the movement for Justice in Palestine, and it's also dangerous for American Jews and our attempt to actually get a grasp on the contours of anti Semitism that is rising in this moment.
Yeah, there is always this inflation I see over and over with the far right and people who speak on Palestine issues. I mean, this is not exactly analogous, but Sarah Herwitz, the Obama speech writer, has recently gone viral. I'll link the video, but I'll leave people to make
their own judgments. But the part that I'm referencing here is when she puts like in the same breath Nick Fuentes and Al Jazeera reporting, and it's again, it's this kind of conflation between like actual extremists and people who
just happen to say things you'd find uncomfortable saying. And you know, there's also this kind of trend of discounting Jewish voices that aren't part of the establishment, so like Jewish Voice for Peace is seen as an extremist group and not within the fold, which of course gives the far right, including President Trump, the ability to decide who
is Jewish enough for their purposes. And when he's annoyed with Chuck Schumer, he calls him a Palestinian, which, by the way, is offensive on many levels to me.
Yeah, because I don't want Chuck Shim to be a Palestinian. But yeah, it's just really really quite a mess.
Yeah, you know, I was reminded when you said that of a group Psyche carry Mission, you know, do the
same thing. They list you know, first first generation black and brown college students as anti Semites and then they list Nick front Days and it's you know, it's a way for them to kind of protect their brand of like, look, we are going after real anti semitism, but it's this totally discredited notion that you know, anti Semitism or all extremism really is like you know, you know, kind of an equal threat on both sides of the political spectrum.
That is just you know, it doesn't meet our moment at all.
It's very clear that that anti Semitism is much stronger and more deadly, you know, on the radical right. Data supports this not only in the US but around the world. And yeah, so this kind of discredited centrist notion that you know, both sides are equally threatening is just you know, not suiting us for not only around anti semitism. But it's the same thing you hear from people like Chuck
Schumer about extremism, you know, more broadly. So it's it's not it's not the way to meet this moment of rising fascists in the sale both sides are bad, it's just very outdated and dangerous.
Yeah, that's absolutely obfuscating.
Yeah. So for me, like in the bubbles that I live in, I feel like the ideal because of the last couple of years, has really discredited itself and there have been you know, critics from within kind of the American Jewish even establishment. I would say from your perspective, of course we're going to link your book, so first and foremost read.
Ben and Shane's book.
But who do you think is speaking on anti Semitism in a rigorous way now? Like Nexus Foundation, Like who would you say has a better grasp of this situation.
Yeah, I think the Nexus you know project is very useful. It's a coalition of you know, academics who you know are actually specializing in anti Semitism and They have a really rigorous attempt, you know, to really give people guidelines that can help to parse, you know, where anti Semitism
is and where it isn't. And they really stress, you know, in every incident you come across, you know, every question, you have to pay attention to context and to really take a close look at what people are saying, you know, you know, to separate, you know, as you said earlier, you know, to separate the discomfort that you know, for example, like a Jewish student, you know who Zionist you know on a campus you might feel if they hear Free
Palestine be able to distinguish that discomfort from actual danger or from actual antisemitism.
So I think they do a really nuanced job at it.
You know, there's an organization called Diaspora Alliance that's not always the very public, but they do a lot of important work, you know, helping folks, you know, to grapple with these issues, especially if you're being hit with these kind of false charges of antisemitism. And then yeah, i'd say Jewish Currents puts out great resources. Yeah, so those are three that I think of that I look to. But I think, you know, right now, we need you know, I go back and forth over do we need another
better ADL. But ultimately, you know, I think we need new institutions and new projects that are able to look at antisemitism in an intersectional way, to see the connections between antisemitism and anti blackness, anti immigrants, enophobia, you know, to see how how anti semitism, you know, fuels authoritarianism
and makes all us less safe. I think there are some exciting projects coming down the pike that you know, people will know about, you know, soon, But I do think we need kind of new institutions and new resources, you know, for this.
Yeah, Ariel Angel, the editor in chief of Jewish Currents brot. Honestly, it feels like a lifetime ago at this point, but about like the need for new Jewish institutions. And I think this is a you know, from the outside looking in, you know, not my not my discussion perhaps, but it seems like this is an unnecessary component because there's always this tension between exceptionalizing anti semitism and then not meeting the moment or seeing it as part and parcel of fascism connected to.
Other you know, ideologies as well.
Yeah, yeah, I know, it's so often exceptionalized as this kind of unique hatred that's you know, outside of all history, and it's the oldest hatred, you know, and it's the you know, the worst hatred right now, there's you know, all these reasons why not only Jewish leaders, but you know leaders of all establishment you know, bipartisan politics kind of frame anti Semitism in this exceptional way.
But it doesn't serve anyone.
So I do think we need, yeah, like you're saying, like a rigorous ground analysis that puts it in the context of Christian supremacy, of white supremacy, you know, of Islamophobia that traces these you know, these connections, and neither exceptionalizes it, you know, nor minimizes it, but you know sees it as part of this fabric of arising authoritarianism.
For sure.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So in the show notes, I'm going to link all the stuff you mentioned, as well as you know, the Asparalliance and NExSS project work. There's also an academic article if people are interested, by Dove Waxman that I find pretty useful, but yeah, I'll put that all on in the show notes. Thank you so much, Ben, This has been extremely helpful and horrifying but helpful.
So yeah, yeah, thanks for having me on. Great talking to you.
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