Amazonians United and Solidarity Unionism

So all right, one of the things that I wanted to talk about right off the bat is that Amazonians United is running a very very different kind of organization than a lot of the union efforts that we've talked about on the show, and a lot of the sort of like I guess, classical or sort of business union models stuff that that you know, we've we've we've we you know, than than what you see in the press,

and then also that we've been covering. So I wanted to start off by asking you about solidarity unionism and how it sort of differs from other kinds of union organizations and campaigns. Sure, I think it's pretty simple. Actually, I think solidarity unionism is workers who believe in ourselves and by that I mean, it's workers recognizing that we don't need someone to save us UM when because we are the ones doing the work, we know how to run our workplaces, we know how to do it best,

and we also deserve the wealth that we produce. So UM solidarity unionism to me is UH building organization with each other, where the fabric of our organization is our relationship and our solidarity as coworkers, engaging in struggle against UM, bosses, managers, owners, UM, everyone. That's that's telling us what to do while UH taking

the lion's share of the wealth that we create. UM. And it's by uniting, coming together around issues that we care about, taking direct action in the workplace, UM building our confidence and our strength and our consciousness. UM and our organization to me a solidary unionism UM. It is distinctly different from business unionism, which is the dominant form mainstream unionism, you know, legalistic unionism, whatever you wanna call it, UM,

that model that has been failing for several decades. UM actually is predicated on a deep distrust of workers, the disbelief that workers can organize ourselves, run our own workplaces, represent ourselves, defend ourselves and each other. Um. And in business union, I mean you know you you see the ads when they're posting, uh for union staff, job, come lead these workers, Come come join this union and lead. You're not even a worker in the workplace. Ho are

you gonna lead someone in there? Like you know, you're you're a lawyer, you're you know, you have a different professional expertise. You're not moving the packages with us from inside with from within the warehouse and so UM. Yeah, I think that's that's the main difference to me of the model. Do you are you a worker? Do you believe in workers? You trust and have faith that workers we ourselves can build our own organization, lead ourselves and um?

And when or do you think workers need to be led, need to be represented, you need to be told what to do? Um need to pay you to go and say that? Um? And uh, Yeah, I believe in workers almost on a solidarity unions. Yeah. And I think we were talking a bit before the show about this, and I think there's there's a lot of aspects about this that are I think very powerful in you know, in

in in in secacy economy that haven't been unionized. And I haven't our unions ever treated from our people who were never sort of organized and to begin with, And I think that's you know something that there's there's there's the there's this problem that happens like with with a lot of unions where you know, you you you get you get this sort of bereacratic structure that builds up, and the bereacratic structure that builds up like doesn't have

doesn't necessarily have the same interests as the people in the UNI union. And that's a real problem. And you get these entrenched like you know, you can get these entrenched caucuses you control unions, and you get this the sort of pliferation of of these people. And I think this was this was part of why a lot of the sort of the anti union techniques that you saw in like the sort of anti union persias in the eighties,

I mean you've been seeing them for a while. Like why they started working in the eighties was that, like you know, when when when when someone like starts ranting about union bureaucrats right like they're they're actually like there actually was a divide there, like there there there was a sort of like I guess like the like there there was a sort of like a kind of fundamental class difference, which I think has a lot I mean, also has a lot to do with you know, when

when you get into your sort of like more more revolutionary context that that has to do with why a lot of unions when you know, Frances infamous for this, right like Franceais had these giant like comunist trade unions and every time a revolution started, the trade union just like sits there and does nothing. And yeah, and you have to sort of ask yourself like, because so why is this happening? And I think, yeah, soldier to unionism, it has it has a lot of answers to this

sort of I guess you call it like that. There's there's a there's a sort of like right wing critique of unions that has to do with like, well, okay, so we don't want workers to organize, we don't want them to reflective power at all. But then there's also you know, but but the reason that it works in a lot of cases because it's able to tap into a sort of like into these structural problems that a

lot of unions have. And I think so my understanding of how he always organizing has been going and correct me if I'm wrong that I've been interested in is that, like, unlike a lot of other campaigns that you've seen, even specifically with Amazon, but like a lot of other the sort of the campaigns that are getting a lot of press, like, you're not active, Like your goal isn't to just get

like recognition as a colected bargaining in it. Right. That's another key part of our key difference between solid or unionism business unionism. UM. In business unionism, you're you're. What defines you as a union is whether you are legally recognized by the state, by n l R b um, by the appointed government body. Um. That is the point at which the folks in these organizations like, are we a union or are we not? Okay, let's let's do an election. Let's follow all these rules that, by the way,

we're designed to demobilize us century ago. But let's follow these rules. Let's try to fight in the courts UH to be recognized as a union. And then once we're a union, then we can fight for a legal contract that has benefited a lot of people in different ways. I'm not you know what I mean, like, but that approach is different than solidity unism, where It's like, we know our power is in the workplace, on the shop floor, where our power based on our unity and numbers as

co workers. We see this when we walk out and within a month they give us a raise. Along would it have taken to get a raise if we went for an l ORB election. Yeah, what organization are we

even building in that way? And so um our. Instead of seeking legal recognition and waging our uh uh struggle against bosses in the courts, we are choosing to wage engage in struggle in the shop floor where we are the experts, where we have the power, where we have the organization, where we are doing the work, where that

is our home turf. Um, we have more power. They're like, it makes more sensitive build power where we have power, not in the institutions that were specifically designed to disempower us and give large employers upper hand. Um. All the different ways that they can manipulate how the votes happen, what is considered part of the voting unit, um, the contract negotiation process, I mean all of these legal hurdles.

I mean, for the vast majority of workers, you'll need lawyers to be even understand how to engage in that world. That's not our world. It was not built for us to be in. It was built to control us. And so um, it just doesn't make logical sense to try to wage our struggle in that arena. We should be in waging it in the places that we work and so um. That Yeah, that's I think another core UM principal solidity unism like build power where we have it,

um and that's the shop floor. Yeah, and I think, I mean that's something that I've seen like in when I was in college. There there's a big dress you need and organization campaign and it kind of they had this huge problem which was that Okay, well they were trying to do they were trying to get a National

Labor Relations Board like vote under Trump. But they couldn't do it because if you know, because because the National Labor Relations Board was controlled by just like the even even by National Labor Relations Board standards like like just unbelievably anti union, like viscerally anti worker forces. It was like, well, if we try to get a vote, like there's a chance they could just you know, like literally destroy the right like destroy the organizing rights of all grad students

of the country. And yeah, and you get you get that with the Nissan election or something like that. Yeah, yeah, and definitely delayed it. Yeah, and it's it's you know, and yeah, I think this this is a trap that like a lot of people, even even people who are really highly organized like get stuck in where you know,

and the like. Eventually, uh, the grand students just like essentially it's just started doing walkouts because that was you know, that that was the thing they could do when they start doing their own strikes until they weren't like legally recognized, because that was the thing that you could do to you know, actually fight in a terrain that wasn't just

inherently rigged against you. So okay, so you've you've you've you've decided to take to take a fight in the workplace, like on the shop floor where where you're where you're at your strongest. What does that actually look like in terms of actions, in terms of organization. Yeah, honestly, I

think it's simpler and more rudimentary. Um then one might think or that you might read about and you know, an academic article or something analyzing or I think it comes down to comes down to building community, comes down to building culture and the principles of the community and culture that you build together with their coworkers is one where we value ourselves and each other. We respect ourselves and each other, and that means that we fight for

what is fair in the workplace. That means that we maintain integrity. Any time a boss disrespects one of us, we need to confront it. We we need to address it. Uh.

If not immediately, uh soon after. In numbers, UM, it means if we're getting overworked and underpaid, then we need to strategize and figure out how do we how do we compel the employer to stop overworking and underpaying us, How do we hit them in a place that they are forced to respe spect and um as it goes in the world we are today, it's always the numbers, It's always the money, it's always the profit. So UM what that means on the day to day, I mean

m Amazon warehouses are a very isolating place. UM. Amazon has basically uh gigified warehouse work. You know, it's like the uber for warehouse where you can pick up shifts, you can you know, extra shifts, you can take uh furlough days, you know, called them videos. UM. Many warehouses like you're you're work the ten twelve hour shift and you're for that entire time you're near one or two

people max. Because they're spaced out and it's loud, and there's machinery and your packing boxes and and so UM. On top of that, you know that everyday dehumanizing. It's also um, you're pushed to work faster and faster. UM. It's difficult to have you know, deep human and direction when you're busting your ass moving you know, thirty to forty five pound packages as quickly as you can. UM. And so the day to day of building and fighting

in the workplace, building community means uh. For example, every week we have a potluck during lunch, bring coworkers together, new coworkers that you know someone could start last week. That's something that we hear a lot. You know. Part of the challenge, it's the turnover is so high? How can you possibly organized turnover so high? UM. That is a specific weapon that boss is used against us. High turnover means what it means we frequently have new coworkers,

harder to build relationship and organization. It means that the job feels more precarious, so people are always uh afraid that will lose our job. You know, we could get fired. We could uh they could change uh staffing numbers that could close warehouses. It create you know, as a tool higher turnover. They just they turned through workers. Okay, who who's willing to do the most work for the lowest pay and sacrifice the most of their body? Okay? If

if you can't handle it, then you quit. If you can, then you stay in here. Okay, let's find the workers in society that are most able to you know, produce the most that so on and so forth and so basic things you know, having every day. Uh. Sometimes it's just like talking with your coworkers is something that is that they try to keep you from doing in the workplace,

And by engaging conversation, you're already resisting that isolation, already resisting. UM. Boss is trying to just control everything, keep everyone divided. So weekly pot lunches, UM having meetings inside or outside of the workplace, coming together, what are the issues that we care about? UM? How do we bring how do we build more unity around these issues that we know many people care about. Isn't doing a petition people sign

on together? Are we delivering the petition? And the group. Um. If the management doesn't respond, it doesn't give us a reasonable response. How do we escalate? Do we need to walk out? Do we need to take other action? UM? Any time we see a manager disres disrespecting a coworker, UM, how do we post up next to them, pull out a notepads, start taking notes? Ask questions? UM, we're a witness, you know. How do we defend each other in all of these basic ways? How are we addressing um and

being honest with ourselves and each other? Of uh? Just the depth of disrespect when they're waiting for us outside of the bathrooms to write us out for time off pass, when they're telling us to work faster when you know we're already on a ten hour shift. We're on our ten of the ten hour shift. They sent a bunch of people home and are forcing us to finish all the work for a small number of people. Do we continue putting up with it or do we immediately walk out?

Or do we talk to their co works about what we want to do? Just being mindful of being honest about what how we are being treated, what is fair, what is not and taking the necessary action to UH demand the the fairness, the respect that each of that deserves. I think, like that's what the workplace struggle looks like. Um, I don't. Yeah, And I think it comes down to building that community with each other and then building the culture of not putting up with bullshit, defending each other,

looking out for each other. Um, there's them, there's an US, UM, make sure you know whatside you're on UM, and you know, I think that's the that's the foundation of it. Yeah.

I think that the aspect, especially of culture building is really interesting to me because I think that's something that's not really talked about much with with with the organizing efforts in both because you know, a lot of like a lot of book is discussed with you know, it's it's especially in academic circles when when when you're when you're just you know, when when when you have people writing about union organizing, and when even when sort of

like other union organizers are writing about unions, is that, Yeah, you don't hear much about the cultural aspects, and you don't hear much about just resisting the actual like psychological

degradation that you get. And that strikes me I think also as as yeah, as as you've been saying struct something that's that's very important, not discussed enough as I mean both says just something that that is a goal in itself, like not having this sort of you know, not not having the just sort of horrible de meeting and abusive sort of tyranny of the boss is just

like existing as this kind of like normal force. But then also like yeah, that destructing something that is really important for anyone who's who's thinking about organizing, is you know, getting getting people, getting people to organize around just like howe getting people to organize around just this the sort of like the psychological decordation, like I think is really important because otherwise, you know, you get you can get you can just get these cultures where like I mean,

I remember I had a job where I was in like we had a union, but like it didn't I mean I was so I was I was at temp workers where I wasn't in the union, like they had a union, and it just sort of didn't do anything, and no one like you and this this is a real source and sort of right reing resentment because the union just didn't do anything, and then you know everyone's getting treated terribly like by by the bosses and by

sort upper management and no one. But it never even like it never really like is on a culture level, never occurred to them to sort of like use the union for that, because that's not really what the union

was there for. It was just the sort of like it was just this thing that existed, and like occasionally when contracts came up, it would pier and I guess, on on On that note, one of the things I was also wondering is what sort of so for for for for people who are who are interested in their own workplaces and starting doing this kind of organizing and starting to sort of, i mean just fight back against their bosses in ways that don't you know, either because

they don't want to or because they literally can't, which I think is is true of a lot of people like who who want to organize outside of the business neion model. How how do you how did you all start organizing like this? And what what sort of immediate lessons do you think people should should take away and should sort of bring in bring into their own organizing

in the workplace. Yeah, um, I think at the base of the is the um I guess I mentioned something like this earlier, but that we we can organize ourselves. We can. You know, if you're talking if you have two co workers that you're friends with, and UM, you say like, hey, let's meet up and talk about what's going on at work, you're starting to organize, you know. UM. And I think part of part of the damage, part

of the harm that business unionism has done. And also just I don't know, hierarchical organizing Umlinsky and organizing UM. I think they're all part of uh sort of connected school of thought where it's like organizing and you know, building a union is something that like you need to be like professionals to or you know, they're experts at it U experts and then if you're not an expert, then you need to consultant expert figure out how to

do it UM. And I think that's bullshit. I think it's if you're a worker, then uh, you can be a union organizer. If you're a worker and you talk with you know, another worker about what's going on in your workplace, like you're already starting to organize. UM. Like I said earlier, if you're calling a meeting, if you're you know, and and workers do this all the time confronting management about this respect you know, I think it's

very much more frequently on an individual basis. But it's a matter of like connecting your issue with a couple other coworkers and then figure out, Okay, well, um, what what's our next step? But we need more numbers? How do we you know, how do we build more numbers? Uh?

If each of us can invite one more person, that six people, if you know, if the six of us can are starting a petition, we could probably get you know, signature is a fifty or sixty, you know, like it's it's step by step and saying if we want to build organization, we can do it from the bottom up. We can start it um and we can figure this out.

I mean, every even within the same company, even within the same company in the same city there you know, I work at UM a delivery station, Engage Park, other delivery stations in the city of Chicago have a completely different culture, you know, the neighborhood that it's in the workers that are the bosses, you know, And so even in the same company, the same type of workplace in the same city, it's gonna be a different story for

how that workplace is gonna you know, get united, come together, UM, figure things out, build organization, and it's just anyone there that is thinking about that that that kind of just begins the process of putting together. They six, all right, we need to start building up some numbers. We need to start having, you know, addressing some issues that people care about. And there's always i mean, there's always the you know, overworked and underpaid, and that's gonna exist everywhere.

You can always go after those issues, but frequently there are small ones like our first issue was a water petition uh or or or or at was access to water UM, and this is how we started as an organization UM. Basically, they were taking away bottled water. They said we were leaving around too much garbage. They're saying bottled water is only there for the summer, and now

that's not the summer. That whatever. They're trying to save a few dollars a day on bottled water to make us you know, work without it UM, And we said, that's fucked up. We're doing warehouse work like this, hard manual labor, and it's hot in here. We need a bottle water. It's you know, not just that broken, unfiltered fountain across the warehouse that you can't even get to while you're working. Um. And so, uh, just a few of us that we're talking at break it was like, okay,

well there's six of us here. Well we're kind of you know, this is the this is the break room at work. They're like managers walking around their cameras in here, like let's meet outside, uh and figure this out. UM. So you know, we we met at a at a Crispy Cream down on like ninety third um, and uh we just basically said like, well, how are we gonna get this water? We've been asking management? Uh you know they've given us the same reasons. We need to do

something bigger that that they can't ignore. Um, how about a petition? And so we just drafted it. The six of us we drafted it. We went around. We got hundred fifty signatures I think from our coworkers are just like basic commands. We need bottled water stocked every day. They need to be you know, filters need to be clean. We need to get a be able to take a break to get this water. Um. And we delivered uh,

the hundred fifty signatures to management. UM. I think it was within thirty or forty minutes, they drove to a grocery store or bought you know, went to the nearest pizza bought every case a bottle. Why they have brought it and passed it out to everyone. We're like, oh, okay, like that was you know, people like that's just hey, we gotta do a petition for this thing. We gotta do you know what this thing? Probably it was that I don't want to say easy, because it's definitely not

easy to like. But the steps, the step by step of like how do you begin, how do you get something started? How do you start building some immunity? Um, These are steps that we have taken. These are you know, what we think is can be applicable UM with everyone's own kind of personal tweaks based on you know, your own workplace. UM, to start getting something going from more coworkers, to start realizing, oh yeah, like we should be in more control of what's happening around here because we're the

ones that are doing all the work. We're the ones that are suffering the most from it in our bodies, getting ground down from doing it. And so um, yeah, I think that I think I look back to a previous question do but like how we started, how you engage in the struggle and just like what that looks like for building building something up from nothing to something like that's what that's what we you know what I mean,

that's what we did. Yeah, from from what I've seen, you all have been extremely effective like at at getting management to recognize it, but essentially getting them to like a seed to your demands because like this this this kind of organizing like solidity unied what what I'm trying to say, it's all there to unist works like it's not like like and you know and yeah, it's it's

a thing. I think one of one of the things you're talking about is like, yeah, it's like when like when you win even on something fairly small, right, and you can show people that this works and that like you know, if if, if, if you actually come together on something, you can force management to do stuff like I think that also become becomes an important sort of like I don't know if catalysts is the right word, but it becomes it becomes becomes an engine that like

feeds itself definitely, I mean, especially for a big company like Amazon, like I think the most common perspective, at least at the start, is like such a big company, like what could we possibly do? They have a thousand warehouses, like what you know, they could choose to close one and open another one. You know, they do this, or they could suddenly you know, and with two weeks notice like change the schedule from an evening time to overnight time,

which is what they did to us. Basically, um, what can we possibly do? And so you know, but I think it's like the moment, it's like there's uh on a cliff or what do you call, like the watershed a point, like the moment you kind of take that first collective action and then get what you want. Um. It's like, oh wait, it's not as like within this space like we can actually make our lives a lot better pretty quickly. Yeah, we just come together and do

it ourselves and recognize the power that we have. UM. And I think it's like hmm. That's one of the reasons why it works so well is because it is different from the mainstream approach, which UM bosses and these companies understand very well and can easily maneuver around, such as, oh if we do if if one of our managers

does something wrong. What will happen next is well, receive one of our lawyer as we'll receive a grievance from one of their representative lawyers, and you know, this business union, we'll have this many months respond and then we can do this and then you know, uh, we'll do this paperwork and have this legal back and forth and then maybe we'll address this issue six to twelve months down

the line. UM, no disruption, you know, nothing to worry about. UM, Let the bosses run amuck and we'll get a six to twelve month at start to you know, and maybe get a slap on the wrist and a fixed wherever you need to or pay small fine. UM as opposed to that's business units, like as opposed to Southern unism, where it's like they just disrespected us in a way that like we're not trying to put up with, Like we are hurting. We can't even finish the shift without

hurting ourselves more. We're just gonna group up the walk out right now. UM, they're gonna figure out, they're gonna have to figure out how to get the rest of these packages out without us, UM, and when we come back tomorrow, Uh, we'll see, we'll see if they want

to keep treating us the same way. UM. And so it's like to me, you know, we we've had basic basic management confrontations where either immediately uh you know, they were understaffing and we grouped up rolled into the office just like with seven of us, not even like the whole shift. Um, seven out of fifty people rolling office, and you have too few people on the lines. You you need an add extra person. We've been asking you have it. Um, We've folded our arms within five minutes

to send an extra person over there. They're working the rest of the shift. UM. In the in the business union approach, like I don't even know, Like how do you follow you know, understaffing grievance? Like what are the details? How does that happen? Does a union representative have to be contacted and then negotiate in some way? Um? But that like, let's just address this right now and fix it. UM.

I don't want to wait for some outside activity. Let's just improve our working conditions right now, like confronting and addressing it. UM. I think it just you know that's something that Um, the bosses are left, it's less predictable for them. It's less in their control, it's less in their wheelhouse. Um, and I think that's a prey reason why it works better. Yeah, And I think one of one of the things the thing this reminds me of. It reminds me of the kind of stuff that unions

used to do when they were strong. Like it reminds me of like, yeah, you're you're like c I O, like sit down, strike, right, It's like, well, okay, if if the manager or something we didn't we don't like so one blows a whizzle, everyone sits down, and like it's like it's that that kind of not just sort of like way to go to the legal channels, but just just like im immediately taking action is like it's it's something that it's like it's it's something that worked,

and it's you know like that that's that's the kind of stuff that like build the built the original like

labor movement. And it's really interesting to me that, like because because I think there's a lot of like I think a lot of people look back at that era sort of like nostalgically and go like, well, Okay, if unions were stronger, we could do this, but like that's not really true, you you can't actually just like like you can do the same things that like, you know, you're like nineteen thirties c I O was doing like and and and if you know, and you don't you

don't need the kind of institutional backing that that those

people had. If if like if if you're organized enough in in your in your specific location, I think that's a really interesting I don't know, I'm purious if you agree with it, seems like it's kind of interesting lesson about like what happens to the labor movement, where like the more the more you get into this sort of like okay, well, the the union is now two lawyers sitting down with each other, right the what what you're doing basically is and then like this is this is

this is explicitly what the National Labor Relations Act was, right, Like, it was an attempt to get labor, labor and capital sit down at the table and stop fighting so that they could like you know, basically seleft production could go on, and like some sometimes sometimes that that you know, sometimes I favor the union. Right, sometimes you'd have the president be like like the actual like US president would be like, okay,

you come you like steal company. You have to like give workers what they're asking for because steel production shut down, right, But like, you know, the problem with that is that it's based on like it's based on at all costs trying to sort of preserve like it's based on cost

like trying to preserve the labor piece. And you know, I mean there's reasons for that too, Like yeah, like I'm not gonna like like obviously there's there's any time you take a direct action, there's a risk, and yeah, like I'm not gonna like, you know, I'm not gonna be like like it's it's hard to be really mad at people who don't want to go on strike because they don't like because you know, how how am I

going to feed my family? Etcetera, etcetera. But like, you know, bringing like having that kind of militancy in the workplace, just you know, without without any kind of formal recognition, I think is an extremely powerful tactic. And is I mean literally how the original labor movement like got built.

It's difficult, though, and it can be yeah, yeah, you know, and it's like I think you you posed kind of the question or or or kind of questioning the idea like where did how did the labor movement get to where it's at if the origins were more conscious UM, in the ways that you've been describing UM. I think that. UM. I mean it's it's definitely you know, the risk is always there. You're always confronting the power. I mean in

the workplace. When it comes down to it like that, obviously the power dynamics shift, and it's more complex than you know, bosses have more power than workers unless workers organized and workers have more power than bosses. That is true. And also for example, on the day to day, you know, the boss can fire anyone and then you're you know,

however you end up dealing with it. Uh, you know, you could be out anywhere between two or twenty paychecks until something is resolved legally or even through direct Actually, there's obviously very directly oppressive our dynamic there. UM. And I think that UM. To speak truth to power, to

directly confronted UM, of course, it's frightening. I mean I would be lying if you know, like I'm I'm you know, talking on this on this podcast about doing this and yeah we're doing this, and like you know, I'm not gonna pretend that like when we were even when we were in a forty person mass, you know, confronting management, addressing that everyone together, it's still like, you know, there's there's there's still this power dynamic here and we're punching

up like it's a punch, but like we're punging up to someone that's like a big, heavier um adversary, and so it's like they could swing back to like you gotta gotta be ready to and so UM. I think that what I'm describing on a kind of like face to face and the personal that moment in the workplace, I think on a broader scale also exists where it's like waging an extended you know, organizing struggle to be fighting this fight millions of times in many different ways,

and then continually trying to bring people together. You know, people move on because everything that's happening in life. They got evicted from their place, so they had to move to a different place far away. Okay, suddenly they had to leave a job and they were someone that was

contributing a lot to the organizing. Something happened. Someone has a family member that uh, you know that they need to spend a little bit more time with Um, everything that's happening, everything that's making you know, reduced seeing our time as working people to take care of ourselves and each other, like all of this, we're fighting against all

of this, and um, they're definitely ups and downs. They're definitely times it was like thing like where you know, and then it seems I get times, Uh, all of the struggles and life like it's like you take like two steps forward and then two steps backwards. Get it. And so you know, there's definitely a difficult reality permitting everything. You know, all of the organizing wins, the advance that

we're talking about. We need to be fully honest about that and also recognize that there's still like nothing more.

There's like nothing more beautiful powerful, There's there's no there's nothing that feels better than that moment when you when the power dynamic was like this and you pull something off and it's like yeah, I was like, oh, like you you just did what we wanted you know and more and then now like you're being real careful with us, like we we change things here, like our lives are better concretely, um, and we made it happen, and uh, you know, I think those are like celebrating the winds

and like taking joy, not always thinking so far, Okay, we've got more to go. Yeah, they're always there's always more of that. Um. We can and have to be building.

And let's make sure that we're taking the time to recognize, um and celebrate each of the steps that we are um advancing, so that you know, we we don't get lost in you know, assuming in the cycle of like seeking permanent, infinite growth and organizing and being constantly stressed out about it, rather than like taking those breathers, taking those moments. Okay, like let's take this and strive, let's

do this and stay. That's not burnout. Um. Yeah, I think that's all part of figuring out how to how to how to make it happen. Yeah, And I think that's that's important. I think that that that's an important thing to understand with any kind of organizing, which is that like yeah, if if if you like if if if if, there's never sort of a moment in which you're reflecting on or or just celebrating like that the goals that you've actually accomplished, Right, you're just gonna sort

of be endlessly bashing your head against the wall. And you know that this is this is like yeah, I mean this is this is sort of a burnout machine. This is a a way that you know, it's something that also just sort of feeds despair, which is that yeah, like you know, like yeah, okay, your your victory is

a small victory, but it is a real one. And that's that's something that even in the face of sort of like the Cyclopean horror of like just the world that we're living in, like no, your your small victories due lead up to bigger ones and yeah, and you know, and getting people to lose sight of that is a

like it' it's it made your way. The system is held together by just sort of like manufacturing hopelessness, even when there there there are reasons for hope, and there are reasons to sort of look at what you've done and go, hey, we we won this thing. Definitely, Yeah, I think that's a I guess unexpectedly cheery for this show not to end on Do you have anything else? Yeah, I mean I think we touched on a lot um. I guess I have a usual pits or some version

of it um. But I think, uh, maybe something to bring together different elements that we touched on and bringing some of the sure really hopefulness and also put out some encouragement too. I think now is a time where there's a whole lot of uncertainty and I'm uh, you know, definitely and a global week to week or year to

year scale, but also on an individual level. I think a lot of individuals right now, UM likely those that are listening UM that that end up listening to this or UM those that are like seeing what's happening around the world, is like, what is my role in all

of this? What am I trying to do? Different people are joining different organizations and and and trying to figure out how they should be living their lives, what the what principles they should be living out, how they should be applying themselves to for example, UM, combat and dismantle UM I don't know, uh capitalism and and and uh you know, prison industrial complex and reverse climate destruction and and find fascism everything all of existential threats that we face.

It's like, what, you know, what is my role? And I think, UM, if if you at all have the capacity and curiosity, UM two engage in some of this deep work yourself for building community relationships, culture among UM.

You know, just with workers, build building your own organization, building your own acts of resistance, building your own forms of of of you know, own forms of reclaiming your time and minds and bodies, and build something beautiful that can you know, be part of a broader movement that that you know, lifts up working people, that kind of gets back what we are building and what we what

we deserve. UM. You know, think about think about the logistics industry, think about warehouse work, UM, think about joining in UM and UH, you know it's uh it's hard work. It's hard manual labor, it's hard mental and emotional work. UM. But I think this is the future of what the winning, fighting uh successful movement UM will need. UM. And I think many people engaging and building more genuine, more worker focus, worker centered, worker run uh stolidarity unions of our own

democratic horizontal bottom up UM. I think building this way and connecting with each other, I think this is the way forward. I think this is the examples that we need. We need more people engaging in this work. We need more uh more of that attention, energy and focus, Like how do we build the real stuff? UM, that's gonna be the powerful organizational influence to transform society and and avert these forms of extinction and continued extraction, exploitation, oppression

of all of us. UM, join us, Join, join the struggle, get get some of these jobs. Talk to your co workers, build something that. It's really that simple. UM. And uh yeah, that's my that's my every day pitch. UM. So, if if people want to find Amazonians United specifically, where where where can they find y'all? UM? So in Chicago. So Amazonians United Chicago Land, UM is our name. We have a Facebook page, we have a Twitter. UM. Those are

probably where we're most active. UM, and where you can follow and get into contact with us, Tweet out us, message us on Facebook. UM. If you're really so inclined, UM, you can email us at a you Chicago land at gmail dot com. UM. But otherwise, yeah, just look up, you know, follow our social media. You'll see what we post occasionally about what's going on. UM. And uh, you know, feel free to reach out, get into contact, ask any questions you might have, UM, and you know, let's connect,

let's build community. Yeah. And that's that's a Chicagoland at a Chicago Land on Twitter by the way. Yeah. UM, yeah, sweet uh ted, thank you, thank you so thank you so much for joining me. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, that's really great. Um yeah, if you want to find us at you can find us at happen Here pod on Twitter, Instagram, and cool Zone Media in the same places. Um yeah, go go, go organize with your coworkers, go do cool things, go be do well better place. Yes, yes, yes, sure,

um yeah, thank you, thank you. It could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.