Also media.
Hi, and welcome to the podcast. It's be James and today I am joined by Nick. Mike's been doing some reporting on a forest occupation in Hint, which is a place I used to live. Actually, Mick, would you like to introduce yourself and sort of explain a little bit about what you've been doing.
Of course, Hi, I'm Meck. I am incidentally reporting on stuff and I thought this was a pretty neat thing to report on that I think people should know more about, and it's also kind of a fun thing.
So yeah, it's very accessible for people, Like if you want to do like little forest occupying over the summer, this is one that you can do pretty easily.
Yeah.
Yeah, you can skip your European festival season and just go help at a forest occupation, which is cheaper and much more memorable.
Yeah you can. God, they used to have one of those near the little town I lived in when I was racing in Belgium, and it was a scene.
Yeah, just lovely times.
Yeah, great times. We should maybe explain like a little bit about Hunt as a city, because I think if people have seen it or they've maybe visited, like they've been to the middle of town, right, and they've they've seen the castle and then the waterhouse bar or whatever, and they've been one of those sugar noses, but like they might not have seen the whole city. So, like, can you sort of characterize the city.
Of course, it's very diverse in the sense that the scenery changes a lot. You've got some of these like really old buildings that are just like speaking to your imagination. But then there's also almost like concrete deserts. Yeah, I would almost call them where like the view on the street is just an incredible amount of gray in varying colors.
Yeah, thats it was a beautiful city.
I don't mean to thrash talk cantier at all, but at times it's just really gray.
Yeah.
Yeah, I've lots of memories of springtime in Flanders and like gray sky and gray buildings and gray roads and yeah, but also some very beautiful areas. So, yeah, what did you where? You go ahead and explain to us a little bit about this forest occupation.
Okay, it's an occupation that's happening to a little north of the city center. In terms of forest occupations, it's remarkably accessible. So it's called the Wombolhams Misson or Ponds for you English speakers out there, and it's part of an industrial area called the Dauci, which is located just west of the canal the Lever, which connects the port of Hnt, the third largest port in Belgium. The area itself is about fourteen to fifteen hectares. I'm not sure how to translate that to US numbers.
I'm sorry, Yeah, neither, my terribulated American doesn't matter.
There's internet, yeah, and the arch area has largely been left to its own for a pretty significant amount of time past twenty years.
Now.
There's two areas within the ponds, as I'm going to call them, a northern part and a southern part, and later down the line i'll explain why that is important before I continue further on the highlight. I went there mainly as a form of solidarity and support. I had asked if people would be willing to talk to me about in a journalistic or reporting capacity, and they agreed to that. But I'm not a local, and I also don't want to pretend I am, although any listener will
hear my accent and know that. So yeah, we'll be mainly talking about the southern area, and there's destination plans before this area. There's essentially two parties that are working together to turn these green areas into the gray concrete deserts that we just talked about. These parties are the municipality of Kent and the Lane, a government organization that handles public transport and Flanders. So over the years, there have been several plans to build or develop the ponds,
but up until last week. We're recording this in the week of August eighth, but up until last week, no permits were issued to actually finalize or realize these plans. The northern part was supposed to be turned into a sort of training area for bus drivers, while the southern part is intended to be a parking lot for public
transport buses. The activists currently residing in the forests are by no means against the idea of public transport, but do think that the destruction of this piece of nature is counterproductive for both the locals and for climate change reasons. There is enough concrete in the city already, and they argue that alternative solutions have not been given the attention they deserve.
Yeah, it seems like it wouldn't be hard to find, Like I think, did they call it like a brown field site, like a former industrial site or in that area of Flanders to redevelop an old factory or a warehouse complex or something. To do this rather than taking one of the green spaces and destroying it and paving get over.
You know, I don't know what the municipality was thinking, but I'm sure there is like barren areas elsewhere that can just as easily be repurposed in a way that doesn't like destroy nature. So the part that was most surprising to me and at the same time not at all, is how this is being played out politically. To give everyone a quick timeline, about twenty years ago, the municipality designated these two zones that I talked about as to
be used for common use. I'll remain not for those speaking Dutch or Flemish.
Well.
At the same time the ground was being bought by the public transport company the lane plans for development started. There is even like an unused tram bridge just outside the green zone and the occupation. But for one reason or another, the permit to build on the ground itself had expired, during which time nature took it upon herself to reclaim the area. Now, what I meant earlier is
this difference between the north and the south part. These are separated by train tracks, making a very clear distinction between the two areas. The land originally wanted to use the north part to make a sort of training area, as I just said, but these plans never materialized. At the same time, about three years ago, another action group prevented this destruction of the northern part. Now this is
where I find it really interesting. The terrain is still owned by the lane and the municipality, but they intend to give custody to a local environmental group called a nativeunt but only if the plans for the southern part, where there is an occupation right now, are completed.
Oh yes, yes, interesting.
Yeah. While I was talking to my source, I was reading between the lines there as a sort of an attempt to play these multiple environmental organizations against each other, a sort of divide and conquer.
M Yeah, very new theory is.
When I asked my.
Source about that, they said that it was up to mediate whether or not I would call it that, but that the existence of these plants is just the reality. Now, I will not claim probably for legal reasons that there's definitely some attempt to set these parties up against each other. But from the information that I have, like if I were a betting man, I know where i'd put my money.
Yeah, that's really interesting. So like not true to punt is not present in the forest occupation on the southern side, is that right?
Uh?
Not that I'm aware of, And so they'd stand to like they'd gain custody of the northern side of the people on the southern side failed exactly.
Yeah, and how a fairy is exactly and if the southern side now succeeds in preventing like the tearing down of the trees, then the northern side could become you know, threatened again, and then this whole circus starts all over again.
Right, Yes, both of them have the avested interest in one of these Well, in theory, the municipality would maybe would like them to think that both of them have an interest in the paving over of one of these areas.
But exactly, like someone has to lose in this equation. And I find it interesting that that it's happening like this, especially because Hans kind of promotes itself on these green zones that are mixed throughout the city and that are then again accessible for people by bike or through running or walking. And then in that same breath there's also still the oh yeah, one of these species of nature we need to tear down because we need more concrete. Yeah, those two views just don't align.
Right, And like we said, there's no shortage of Concretely, this is a very sort of post industrial area. It's not like this is like a public facing thing that needs to be in one area to be accessible to people, right, Like they could store their buses, train their buster, you know, somewhere else in Flanders. It's it's not like it needs to be right in town.
Now. I'm certain there are other areas where you could just as easily make a parking lot for buses. Yeah, as for like a training grounds, I'm not sure how that would work. But then again, there I think there's roads enough in the city for people to practice. Like even like industrial areas tend not to have very much traffic, so that could still work without having to like again get rid of a piece of forest just so people
can drive around in buses. Yeah, but again, this is not an argument against public transport.
More in the like hypocrisy.
And senselessness of the plants that are on the table right now.
Yeah, and kind of trying to make people choose between two things when they should be perfectly possible to have both.
Right exactly.
I'm guessing it would also be more cost effective if you take some other parts, because I'll dive into that later. By there's also like pollution in these areas that needs to be taken care of. So just from a cost effective standpoint, I think there should be alternative options that will keep everyone happier.
Yeah. So, yeah, described to me your visit there, like, describe how it was and what you winness there?
Okay, Well I went there at the end of July. I stayed a few days and it was really weird because you're coming from again a tram stop, then you have to walk for a bit and all of the sudden it's like you're in a forest.
It was.
It was really surreal almost to know that you're in the middle of a big city but also have that kind of like isolation from the sounds of traffic.
Yeah. I mean that's lovely, right, It's nice that's that's available at least for now.
Oh yeah, I understand one hundred percent why people want to keep that green space close to their homes. Yeah, So the ponds are a mix of terrain like there's like water hungry like swampy areas when the ring has been falling. There's lush grass fields with like little curvy impromptu paths to take. And there's some parts where the trees have been growing for long enough that people can now build treehouses in them, which to me is quite a good indicator that not much development or care has
been done in this strain. There's an absolutely insane amount of BlackBerry bushes, much to mydy light. And yeah, it's just for an area that is relatively small in the bigger picture. It just surprised me how many different faces it has. It was a delight to be there. Locals tend to use the area for walks or picnics or to take their dogs out. I've seen multiple people stopping
by just to pick the blackberries. The city itself calls this entire area a green zone and a climate access their words, can is done is trying to create like a network of zones and roads that are accessible by car, but not so much that there is a lot of traffic on these roads, which makes them ideal for cycling, running, recreation,
or even transports if you would so choose. The website of can itself promotes these areas is good for the flora and fauna, for the environment, and subsequently for residents. Then you need to be thinking of absorption of rain water, or keeping local populations of animals and plants healthy, or just the cooling effect that nature has.
Yeah, compared to black top.
Exactly like fully, concrete cities tend to like not really release their warmth as quickly as nature does it. And it was surprising because it was really hot when I was there, but in the shade of the trees, it was perfectly doable up until the point where you actually exercised, and then suddenly it was less cool. But different story again.
The webs from the municipality itself acknowledges the importance of the area for an endangered species of lizard and the efforts that the city took to make sure that it can still thrive there. More concretely, one person I spoke to said that there are thirty nine protected species of plants and animals living there, protected under both Flemish and European law.
So I'm not.
Really sure why that's discarded into the calculation. I'm not a municipality person.
I don't know.
Also, I believe there have been sightings of foxes there, mainly because we were told by the activists not to eat the blackberries that are too close to the ground due to the parasites that foxes may carry and can subsequently like infect people with.
Oh wow, yeah interesting.
You know what else carries parasites, James?
Is it the goods and services that we rely on to pay for this podcast?
Exactly?
There's a fifty percent chance that these products and surfaces will give you one or another incurable parasite.
Wonderful, and we're back. And you mentioned that there was a problem with pollution in the wilderness space, you can explain, like what kind of pollution then entails.
Of course, in the pasta has been like a pollution of both the groundwater and the soil in and of itself. That's not that remarkable. I've been told by someone that Flanders has multiple spots where you can come into contact with different forms of pollution. In the ponds. There is both pollution in the soil and in the groundwater. The soil itself contains asbestos, although it should be noted that
that is within like the acceptable regulatory norms. As a refresher for listeners, Asbestos dangerizes mainly in the breaking or fracturing of the material, and the fibers that release through that process is what makes asbestos so hazardous. An effective way to mitigate is to make sure that these fibers do not get into the air, for which water tends
to work. Wonders so, at least in terms of asbestos, it seems very simple and cost effective to just leave it undisturbed, because it's already an area that likes to swallow up water, which then will isolate the asbestos from the air, and thus you make.
It less harmful.
The water is contaminated with vocis. That's an acronym for a variety of volatile organic compounds with some chlorine attached to it.
I don't know. I'm not a chemist.
These chemicals have several uses and applications in a variety of industry. One of my sources told me that the specific chemical is one point for dioxane, which is used as a solvent. It's not the type of stuff you want to drink or inhale, but serious exposure from contaminated soil or water is pretty rare from what I've read.
As my source pointed out, the contaminants in the water will overtime degrade organically, a process called phytoremediation, where the presence of plants and microorganisms and fungi will degrade the material and reduce the toxicity. While reading into this, I found that the same is true to an extent for asbestos, which can be a source of inorganic nutrients for these microorganisms.
So while you could point out that phytoremediation is a longer process than sanitation, I personally think that it's just common sense that letting nature do its work understirb might be significantly cheaper and more sustainable compared to putting additional chemicals and substances in the ground to neutralize these vocis.
Also just a fun little sideway.
Last year, but in order to monitor the area, the line employed a concierge to walk the terrain on a daily basis. I'm unsure if you can spot upcoming or emerging contamination with the naked eye, but not my money that they used to pay the guy.
So this guy just his job was to walk around the ponds.
Yeah, pretty much. I'm told he had like a little hut or a little shack from which he worked. The guy was still working there at the time the activists moved in, but the shack is gone, and so is the concierge. I'm not sure about the details of what happened there, but what I do find extremely funny is that now officials and spokespersons from the development site are claiming that the area is dangerous and that it is for their own well being that the activists leave as
soon as possible, which doesn't really make sense to me. Like, either this argument is like incredibly this genuinus or they fucked over someone by paying them to take this incredibly the risky job of walking over contabinated terrain.
Yeah, and not to mention like all the people who they allowed toward their dogs and plick blackberries there and things.
Exactly if it was that dangerous that people should not be there, then I'm fairly certain they could muster better fences than they did at the moment. Like, I'm not sure I'm offense economy in the broader sense, but there should at least have been signs on the fences. Yeah, and there were none, so yeah, we're getting to the octupist groups. The group that is currently occupying the trees is an assembly of people who care deeply about the
area itself. I spoke on the record with one of them, and I would like to play this clip to let them introduce themselves.
I'm Elvid and one of the activists of the Wonder Miss occupation which he occupied since the twentieth of June, and we occupied this because it's endangered since the the land, which is the public transports company in Flanders, wants to destroy these fifteen hectares of nature for building a bus depot to parking for buses.
Okay, do you want to tell us about what what you you and the group of activisties have done here.
Yeah.
So we live in the trees as much as possible, and we we sleep there to make an eviction harder and to have more power in our in our action to like, it's way more difficult for them to get us out if we are on height and use other tactics to to block them. And they also cannot start cutting trees when we are in the trees.
Another trees is that for you it's intends.
Always an occupation, of course, but also places of very very experiment with living together and where everyone is welcome.
There are no door bells, no walls.
Forests are very open place where everyone can just come in and feel like they are welcome, and it's not owned by someone.
It's not.
Yeah, it doesn't feel like it's belonging to someone, which you can easily have with the house, I think, but here there's all the space to make stuff, to live, to take time for yourself, which makes it very healthy, I think, to live here by being in nature, people are just more happy, I think in general than in the city and in the house. And the area are mainly building three houses. As you can hear, maybe.
Probably so as you've heard that was Arvid, one of the activists that I spoke to. As you've also probably heard, is that there is construction going on in the trees. There's multiple tree houses there at the moment, and that's where they sleep. When I spoke further to Arvid, he made clear, like the demands that the activists have, which is mainly that they don't want the needless destruction of
this area. There's intention is to remain in the trees and make it hard, if not impossible, through the trees to be felt. There are multiple tree houses with enough stability and space for multiple people. On top of that, they are preparing for a possible eviction, all while also living happily and communally, like every night they cook together,
they're having dinner together. I found it incredibly healing and wholesome to just have a meal around the small fire with a group of like minded people, not hearing traffic or other urban noises. A bright spot was one evening where someone played a Dutch protest song and just on the guitar satirizing an unnamed US president for his role in the Vietnam War, which can't escape US politics even
in the middle of a forest. So then I would like to play a second clip, And how do you want to talk about how your relationship it is with the neighbors around here?
Yeah, the neighbors they started their own action committee for more than three years ago, I think, and they have already saved one piece of the Wildenhemson myths, which is on the north part of the trainer. So this one is no safe, it's only three hectors. But it was also the learned to wanted to for it for making I say, a place to practice to drive for the bush,
like a training ground for for bus strives exactly. So just put concrete on this swampy area to them once in a while drive for the bus there as if there is no other concrete in the city to practice. But this is now safety and now the neighbors are also for this big piece of the whams meths are now going to start a court case against the decision because the Ministry of throughout the the Ministry of Environment, they approved the permits for for the style plots for the bust.
Okay, uh that was yesterday that that was announced. Uh, how are you feeling? How are you feeling right now? Do you have any plans on how to continue the fight against the bulldozing of this place.
Yeah, we are not surprised that she approved it was we saw it coming a bit. But it's just very ridiculous and we will keep fighting, of course, because this is a very Hypocrates and saying that we have to save that nature. But in the meantime she she proves decisions to destroy them this kind of nature. So we just continue to fight and the neighbors do it with the court case, we keep where, we stay here, and we we keep building and prepare for an eviction.
That's really interesting. That diversity of taxes at cooperation, I think is really valuable in these kind of struggles. Can you explain a little bit more about that, like how that works.
Well, I think it was just the stars that aligned for this particular goal. There is a neighborhood committee that's also heavily opposed to the destruction of this area, but it's mainly a well, a neighborhood committee like these are people who will stand up to like the municipality, but entirely through the legal system or the judicial system. And I think this committee was like at least a year or two maybe even more old before the occupation happened.
And the occupation also happens separately from the committee, So you kind of have this, you know, alliance now between like a group of people who will take more direct action against the plans to destroy the place and this group who is going to do that by filing court cases against the plans that the land and the municipality are trying.
To realize right now.
It's really funny always because one of my sources said the people who are occupied and the forest came down like angels. The activists really don't like to be called that, but it's sort of. Yeah, just they have a common they have a common goal, and for that they're working together. And from what I've seen, there is very warm and friendly contact between the groups. I've seen multiple neighbors come by with like food or building materials, like think of
screws or nails, or like wooden beams for construction. I think there was one person who, like every Sunday brings pancakes. I'm not sure if they still do that, but it's pretty cool. Yeah, exactly. I've seen people come by and drop off like bags of like dried beans and lentils. I think it's really fascinating that how organically these two groups sort of come together and in their common goal, but also that the two different strategies kind of strengthen each other.
Right, Yeah, Like its obviously you've got people who wouldn't think of occupying forests, but then they find themselves in solidarity with the people who do. And I think that's really cool that, like you said, there was no prior communication, right, these folks just arrived began the occupation and the locals will like, guess, this is exactly what we needed. Thank you.
In so far as I understood it, that's how it happened. As I said earlier, like the combination of text tactics just make their path towards their goal so much more tangible, because by occupying the forests they can't start like early construction in the area, or I know some municipalities or cities kind of begin with the destruction prior to having permission. But then it's like, oh, yeah, we've already started, so
it's of no use anymore. Which I'm not sure how common it is in other countries, but I've heard of that in a with an activist circles in the Netherlands, and all the while is committed, he is like doing the court cases and filing legal motions and yeah, I think I think it's a really warm and friendly contact.
Yeah, that's what it's kind of nice to see exactly.
Okay, I have one other clip.
How does it make you feel that the neighbors are so supportive? As you said, they're bringing food on a regular basis. I've seen I think a few who brought materials even like screws, or nails.
What does that do with your morale or your motivation?
Yeah, I think we wouldn't really be here if they would be.
Broad bus debuts, but of course they are not, because it's just a very stupid idea to destroy this valuable nature fruit.
But yeah, we.
We help each other a lot, and we yeah, we keep each other strong but supporting each other. And they were very moved by us being here, and they even caught as they're angels, which you don't like to be caught.
Yeah, that's it, Okay, Yeah, is there anything else you would like to share or to have on on the record.
Yeah, we would like to invite everyone to come here. There's more inforant wonder misson that snow blocks dot org. And yeah, there will still be the the whole court case, or there was a chance we stay longer, but they also have the legal.
Right to to evicted, which would also be paying for it.
But yeah, obviously people, that is to show we'll be familiar with the forest occupations in Atlanta. What's a state response to this look like?
For a long time, there has been very little state response. While I was there, the permit to develop the area was granted, but for the most part, there's occasional a car that drives by. I did receive word that a few days ago a few cops came onto the terrain took pictures of everything, and the next morning there was a.
Drone flying over the camp.
Yeah.
Yes, so things are.
Like tensing up a bit and we'll have to see how We'll have to see how it goes. Obviously, like the case is still like in the judicial so we'll have to see what comes from that. But up until now, things have been quiet and peaceful.
Okay, Yeah, because I think people sometimes obviously make the US really strive to lead the world in police violence, but I think that those people underestimate the capacity of European states for for state violent.
That's definitely true.
Like our lack of guns makes it that not many people are getting shot by police, but against activists or protests, police can be pretty pretty violent. I don't have much experience with Belgium police myself. I've heard conflicting stories about them. I was at the May first celebration in Brussels, became incredibly prepared and then it was all okay, literally nothing noteworthy to mention. But then when I speak to other people I hear like, oh, you know, Belgium police worse
than the Dutch. But then that very also varies from city to city and that's a whole nother rabbit hole to go down into.
Yeah, so for now, not.
Much police action against the activists. Not sure if or when that will change.
Right, So, if people wanted to if they said everyone was welcome, yes, and I presume they can drop in for the day, or they can go and stay over a period, or they can, you know, commit staying until the forest to say, is it easy to access? Can you walk there? Could you like take I guess ironically maybe could you take a bus?
And there is a tram that stops pretty close by. They have an Instagram account that I don't know from the top of my head because I don't know use Instagram.
We'll link in the notes.
I think if you just search for like a womble mesa or womblem meths and you'll find something. You can contact them there and they can give you more details on how exactly to get there. Yeah, you can come by for a day, you can combine for two weeks, that's up to you. You're welcome there. What I would
like to urge everyone is. If you plan on going there, contact them about the supplies Neat when I arrived there, I got some like some small kitchen knives and like literally for cutting veggies, and some canned foods and some first aid supplies because it is largely donation based what they're doing there, So yeah, anything that you can spare or can purchase for them would be greatly appreciated. To check the website, check their Instagram. There might be a
Facebook page. I think there is a Facebook page for those still using Facebook, So yeah, I would recommend it, like go over there, help out. They're very friendly people if you're interested in doing something like this. This is like a very entry level thing.
Yeah, like you said, it's not just like a good thing to do. It's also a nice fun thing to do. Like it's these spaces could be really healing, just live being among like minded people, like you said, in nature exactly.
And like when I was there, they gave like a climbing workshop, so they taught me how I should climb a tree with like gear around my waist and everything's cool. Yeah, and follow the agreements that people make between each other. Besides that, there's not really any rules. You're free to come for a day, you're free to stay for two weeks. That's entirely up to you. Just it's nice to help out, and even if it's just help with cutting vegetables for dinner. Yeah,
that's already incredibly appreciated. And in the meantime people can do other stuff that needs to happen around the camp. And yeah, in terms of activism, this is a small step to do, but it can also just be a really good experience for years for you, and all the while helping the locals and helping the activists, which is the sort of mutual aid that I would prefer to see a lot more. Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's great that it's integrated with the community, and I think it's great that it's accessible for people and hopefully folks will go bring something dow need. It's cool that they can, you know, share skills. I've learned a lot in different activist spaces. I think that's really cool. Mick, is is there anywhere that people can follow you if they'd like to?
Yes, I have a Twitter account now because I don't see enough horrible shit. It's at two Sober Possums or under the name Mick Smith, M I c K s M. I don't think I've posted anything yet, so I'll think of something funny, but feel free to reach out there if for reasons.
Yeah, I'm cool with that. Great, Well, thank you very much.
There was.
I think that's really interesting. I hope people will go. If you go, you know, send us a little message, let us know how your experience was in the forest.
I'd love that.
It would make me happy.
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