Watership Down

Hello and welcome to another episode of Is This Just Fantasy, the podcast where every other week, two nerds get together to rate, read and review a fantasy novel. I’m your host, Geordie Bailey. And I’m a terrified rabbit in a dark and horrific world, Duncan Nicoll. That's because this week we are reading... Watership Down by Richard Adams. The film scarred my childhood, and now the book's come back for round two. Because Duncan, I never actually watched a film when I was growing up.

I actually caught exactly like two seconds of it on TV as a kid. And nothing especially bad happened. But I think someone in the room knew not to keep it on. So he went, nope, and changed it away. That's because someone clearly cared for your emotional well -being at a young age. Which is funny because the book... Obviously, there is violence in it. And I was like, oh, this isn't really as dark as I was expecting.

I was thinking that I was going to make... The joke I was planning to make was, we start off this year with a lot of dark fantasy. You know, we read The Witcher and Straight Razor's Cure. We read The Black Company. And the last novel we read was still pretty goth. But at least this

one's just about nice fluffy bunnies. The descriptions aren't as graphic as perhaps someone coming off the film would... expect but the subject matter is often still quite heavy for i don't know someone going in for the peter rabbit vibe you know when when it's described in a book like uh you know wound watch scratched him and blood trickled down the back of his neck I’m like okay that's not really as violent as i was expecting by reputation But then I looked up Woundwart because I was

trying to figure out if that was the name of a plant before the episode. And I just caught a gif of a rabbit literally ripping another one to shreds. And I went, oh, my God, this is horrific. What the hell? It is absolutely fantastic. The original Watership Down animated film. Just a classic of messed up. Was it 80s? Kids television? Oh my goodness. But you're right. I’m not sure when it came out, but it is genuinely bizarre.

The book has a reputation of appearing to appeal to children, but actually being written more for adults. I don't know how it really translated to that film being made. Well, I think the first thing I’ll say of why the film probably got made, though, is the fact that this is a pretty darn good book, Geordie. Let's lay that one down. It's true. That's right. No, there's no discussion to be had there. There's one discussion that shall happen later. But I think the book really

speaks for itself. It really just drew me in and it was a magical experience. This is one of the few times in this podcast where I’ve genuinely said, I don't really want this book to end. I just want it to keep going forever. That's such a lovely sentiment. Right, before we get into our appreciation of Watership Down, Geordie, have you been reading, experiencing, listening to anything else you want to share with us? Well,

yes, actually. I was planning on reading this book at some point, but it was definitely hastened by the strong feeling I had about how Watership Down was influenced by the Second World War. So I’ve been reading Anthony Beaver's Stalingrad. Okay, Stalingrad. Enemy at the Gates. That's the extent of my knowledge. Is the book Enemy at the Gates the extent of your knowledge, or the film the extent of your knowledge? Oh, the film. Okay, so you don't know shit about Stalingrad.

I have heard it's got a reputation for being horrifically historically inaccurate. Not maybe quite on Braveheart levels, but not far behind. I can't speak to that because I haven't seen the movie. It's a very interesting book. He has a lot of skill as a writer. Because this is, to be clarified, this is non -fiction. This is historical work. This is based on declassified Russian intelligence from the time period. And

a very unique. So it's written in 1994. Which means it was written in this sweet spot of East and West friendliness. You know, they mention in the preface to the book that just a couple of years later, you know, this book literally could not have been written because those sources are either being hidden or being destroyed by Russian intelligence services. So, yeah, it's fascinating and it really is an artifact of a different time. Oh, gosh. And how was it? Well,

I’m still reading it. I think it's very interesting. And it's the sort of thing that's like, if it was fictional, you'd be like, this is a bit repetitive. Because it's like, do you enjoy scenes of Russian and German suffering? Well, let's just repeat

on that theme for 400 pages. I can't say it's right at the top of the list of some of my interests, but... I mean, to get kind of that historical insight from a very different perspective, I think anything World War II related that doesn't focus on the Western Front is kind of fascinating because it's not that part of the story that is told that often. I saw a fascinating fact the other day, which I was not really aware of.

I’m sure plenty of people do know this. But in terms of just fatalities, the Eastern Front... grossly outstrips what was occurring on the western one and you're like let's not talk about Nili as much no it's um it's incredible there's this um it's a very it's a weird it's a very weird thing to call back to because it seems like a joke but it's not Duncan you know um you know Yakko's world um yeah the Warner Warner Brothers the and the Warner sister dot yeah yeah and the

maniacs that's what they're called At Vienna Maniacs, there's a song in which one of the characters sings a song which includes all of the countries of the world, or close to all the countries of the world. Okay. Like kids' entertainment? Someone did a... There are a lot of meme edits of that song to be like, oh, countries... Only including countries that will previously belong to Britain. Stuff like that. Almost equally as long. One

version of that... One version of that does that, but for every 100 ,000 people killed, Yakov repeats that country. And he says the word Russia for two minutes straight. Geordie, this is quite a sovery heavy beginning of this episode. I fear that when I go into what I’ve been reading and experiencing, I’m going to come off almost childlike

in comparison. But wow. Go ahead, Duncan. Well, to contrast with what was already reading Stalingrad, off the back of all shit, I actually finished over the last two weeks a book that I’ve been reading for a while now and very much enjoying, and that is a sci -fi comedy story called We'll Save the Galaxy for Food by Yarksey Croshaw.

For those that don't know, the author is a YouTuber game critic, and I’ve experienced him through... oh yeah his work in game critique does these sort of short punch review videos and i saw he had a book on audible and i had a credit and i thought yeah why not i actually quite like the sound of his voice and he does the audio uh recording for it and yeah i thought it was actually a really decent funny time does he like in his youtube videos speak extremely fast and

obnoxiously he does tone that down it is a similar kind of style of comedy It's a lot of sarcastic comments, a lot of characters thinking one thing, saying another. And then in certain moments, it's a lot of very over -verbose descriptions of, like, slightly gross -out descriptions of things. So that does definitely play into it. But I think the fundamental premise, we've got this guy who's his down -and -luck. He's a ship captain, a pilot in the age of space travel.

a few years earlier they finally cracked that old wormhole dimensional door technology and now all the old pilots that used to like lug along whole equipment and go exploring into the great black are now out of the job just kind of like taxi drivers busying themselves around the airport or people being like hey do you want to come in like I’ll do you a little tour of some of the highlights of the of the you know the galaxy And one thing leads to another, and

he ends up getting a job to basically look after a mob boss's son. And he's out of his depth. I think he basically ends up pretending that he's a much more famous guy than he is. And kind of the plot rolls from there. It's one kind of observed situation. It's a lot of out of the frying pan, into the fryer, out of that again, into a volcano kind of escalation. It was a nice,

light, fun time. so yeah that's a sort of it's a story i um i get i get i hear brought up occasionally when people want light irreverent comedies um i don't know anything about it or the stories it gets compared to like uh dungeon crawler something carl carl i think what i would say for anyone who's Firstly, if you saw what I’ve described and you kind of like the sound of it, go and listen to the artist he calls any YouTube work.

He's on a channel called Second Wind. And if you just like the tempo of his voice and sort of the humour that comes forth there, this is a much more structured example of that comedy in a very light and breezy sort of book. What I also experienced this week, and Geordie, this is actually a little bit deeper. Oh. And I kind of forgot about it. I was like almost not going to mention. Geordie, I saw a Shakespeare play this week. Oh, wonderful. I saw The Merchant

of Venice. Hmm. What did you think of it? Reset into 1936 Britain. Ah. Wow, that's a bit grim. Oh, yes. See, I can compare to your stuff. Do you know, actually, I’m not following comparison, but another grim story. The Merchant of Venice, for those that don't know, deals highly with anti -Semitism in the sense that it's an anti -Semitic story. Yeah, it's one of Shakespeare's problem plays. So there's a lot of plays which, you know, obviously Shakespeare, the greatest

writer to ever live. It's not really that debatable. But he still is a product of his time, and he wrote a number of problem plays, like The Merchant of Venice, like The Taming of a Shrew. And the great challenge which a lot of people have is how to confront stories like this, which we want to retell because they're extremely well written, against the absolute abhorrence of the content. And the character of Shylock, who is a... which is almost a second -hand word for an anti -Semitic

depiction of a moneylender. He's one of these famous but very difficult to adapt characters. Duncan, how do you think they did? Oh, I think they did extraordinarily well. The thing they do in this adaptation, so the character of Shylock is this moneylender who gets drawn into a bond with this socialite Antonio. And Shylock says to underwrite the bond, I want a pound of flesh. This is the origin of where that phrase comes

from. Also apparently in this place where green eyes with envy or something like that comes from this one as well. Anyway, but what they do in this play. Firstly, they set in 1956 Britain. So this is where the fascist movement was getting big in the UK. And the protests around that. And all of our characters who aren't Shylock and their daughter, they're all part of this movement. They're all fascists. And they're meant

to be the heroes in this story. But they do a brilliant decision where not only do we... I don't know if I can get this right. They basically cast Shylock. Firstly, there's a gender swap. Shylock is played by a woman in this piece. whose name I will say now, Chetianne Oberman. And by kind of doing this gender swap, we get a much more, her performance, and it might not be necessarily down to the gender swap, but her performance, you get a much more sort of nuanced kind of like,

this Shylock is being backed into a corner. So a lot of the actions that are attributed to Shylock, like this whole, I just want a pound of flesh. I’m not going to restate on this deal. You see it from the perspective of a character that has been kind of spat at and derived and bullied by these sort of powerful men. And she's just trying to stand her ground in a society that's getting increasingly, increasingly hostile to

her. Yeah. Another factor that the play does really well, obviously, without acting any lines, that actually opens up a scene of Shylock at dinner. you know, with the family, sort of soften the character. And at the end of the play, the original ending is that, well, same in this one, that Shylock's forced to convert to Christianity. And obviously in Shakespeare time, that was the happy ending. Yeah. We're all Christians together.

You know, I mean, it's become Christian or we will execute you, but you know, how delightful. Whereas, and in the original play, the line is from Shylock, I am content. And the way it's played in this one is the I am content. You see the kind of a heartbreak and Shylock doesn't actually leave the stage at this point. They stay on stage and you just see them sort of sitting in the back while the rest of the characters

play out. Just having this complete kind of breakdown and upset of losing everything at the end and turns into a much more tragic character. So yeah, brilliantly done. On tour in the UK, highly recommend. It's called Merchant Events 1936. Well, Duncan, that's fantastic. I’m pleased that you did that. I’d love to see The Merchant of Venice. That's not one of the plays I’ve ticked off my list, but I definitely hope to in the future. So, well,

that's good. You had a nice cultured week running the gamut from irreverent comedies to Shakespearean tragedies. But on with the show. Watership down. Now, Geordie, there's a question to be asked at the very beginning of this. Is this fantasy? There was a question about this. I felt confident going into this episode that this was correct. You had your own doubts. A lot of people had their doubts, actually. I’m surrounded by haters

on all sides. But I feel confident saying that pretty shortly into this book, I was vindicated. What do you think, Duncan? So the premise alone, whenever you're dealing with these anthropomorphised animals, there's a little bit of me that's like, well, I mean, that's not real, so it has to be fantastical. But that's certainly not the argument I’m making. I think what we're getting Watership

down is a very deeply entrenched... One, we've got a lot of this culture and their lore and the rabbits are telling about their gods and their beings, and that does inform the plot. But also, just straight up, there's a rabbit called Fiverr who has fully prophetic visions. Yeah. Like, bang on the money. He gets it right. Like, that's not real. That's sufficient. Yeah. And a lot of that stuff at first is like, well, this could be him, like, making, like, leaps

of logic. Like, he's intuiting with his great insight. Stuff which feels like a prediction, but it's actually just like him putting the pieces together. But then later we meet another character

who's also a wizard. and who makes this like prophecy for which there is absolutely there's no information that would allow her to make that prophecy ahead of time it's just it's just magic well I’m glad that's sorted on with the show watershed down people it's about rabbits that get killed oh it's the story of a group of rabbits that exists in a happy little warren and we mostly follow the character of Hazel who's out and about, but when their dear friend, Fiverr, has this

vision that their warren is going to get brutally destroyed and everyone who stays there is going to end up dead, Hazel is like, yeah, I hear you. Let's go tell the big honcho. Let's tell people to get out. Obviously, not everyone listens. Only a small group leaves. Classic disaster film sort of premise, by the way. That's what happens. Someone's like, we've got to move. Someone's

like, no, the masses die. and they set out to find a new home um the title of the water ship down they have a journey to get there and once they get there well geordie they have some issues i was really surprised reading this book that the story reminded me the most of by far was the walking dead i didn't make that connection but now you say it oh that just that does just click that sort of When they're on the road and then they get to a place of safety, very much

that first arc with the governor in the prison. They're like, we found a good home, but then there's just this other gang of arseholes over the hill. And also be like, we come to a safe place and it feels like the right place to settle down, but all is not as it seems. That too. Yes,

that played out several times. I remember... are terminus that's the one in walking dead where they're like this seems nice and then they're cannibals not quite that case here it watered it down no yeah no no actually well no there is mentions of cannibalism in this book but only off page um yeah and also the thing the great thing about it is that much like the walking dead the main sort of drama behind this book is not merely the survival of the troop that

sets out on their um on the journey in the first place. It also comes down to a theme about leadership. Hazel is set up from the start to almost be the follower of Fiverr. You know, Fiverr's the one who has the vision that says they have to go. The only role that Hazel initially plays is that they're the first person to listen to Fiverr. In some ways, they could almost be like an apostle figure. He talks for Fiverr because Fiverr's

very shy, but it's still Fiverr's idea. It's only later on, as the story goes on, that Hazel sort of slowly ends up in the role of leader, which you could sort of say he's like fighting for against the character of Big Wig. Yes, and I really have to stress that these kind of character interactions, it's very much what kind of just pulls this book to another level. Like, they're on a quest, they're looking for a thing, they get a thing, they need to find another thing.

There's some bad people that don't want to have the thing. But it's the kind of personal growth of these rabbits as they strike out on their owner. And often it's how I find I thought the troop interacted and they leaned on each other for strength when they pulled apart at certain points. That's where I felt, wow, this is Watership Down elevating itself. It's in this kind of inter -character work. I agree. You really get surprised by... You really get surprised by how much you

connect to the bond between the rabbits. It's not like in a lot of books, it's like, it's not like in a lot of books we read in terms of how these relationships develop. It's not like, say, anything in The Straight Razor Cure or Bonesmith. It's more like, surprise, surprise, the relationships that exist in The Black Company. It's a camaraderie. It's a sense of community that develops. But also, it's like, what if we're reading the Black

Company's first adventure? You know, where they're developing the trust they have in each other. Even sort of the, I mean, the main characters, if I had to point to them, you know, you say Big Wig, Hazel, Fiverr. But even sort of the lesser ranking ones, Silver, is it Blackberry or Blackcurrant?

Blackberry. Blackberry. Yes. it's obviously not black car and duncan you know that blackberry they still got their moments to contribute to respond to what's happening you know no one i mean eventually i think there are more characters than maybe i was like aware of but there's still like a solid group of upwards I’ll say like seven rabbits I’m like oh they're here they're in the fights they're going on the missions Dandelion especially as a character who initially just

sort of as a background figure. But eventually, I actually drew a lot of comfort when Dandelion would come into a scene. I’d be like, okay, things are going to get settled down now. Blackcurrant's going to... Sorry, not Blackcurrant. Dandelion's going to tell us a nice story. And later, when Dandelion is imperiled, there's this moment where Hazel says, we have to leave him behind. I went, Hazel, no! It's so well done, those sort of moments.

It's... you know talking about you're afraid of world war ii if it's like that the band of brothers just yeah you really have this connection and i think to be honest that's what drives a lot of the sense of peril in this book it's less so what's happening but the fact that i care about so much of the cast that I’m like yeah from a plot when you're reading a story I’m trying to think of a good example top of my head i don't know if lord of the rings isn't the best example

but Say you've got your main character and you kind of know by the tropes of the way of the world that they're not going to get touched. So they're protected by the plot. And then you've got the other characters and they could die and the plot could keep working. What I think what it does so well is it makes you really kind of like all these other characters who are maybe slightly estraneous to the brunt of the narrative.

Which makes them expendable by the laws of written stories but you like them so much you're now really upset. So then when these actions happen you feel that sense of peril and the fact that the author clearly is happy to slaughter bunnies throughout that sense of peril really hung over most scenes uh there's a bit later on with Big Wig where he goes he goes undercover and i was terrified for him exactly It's so thrilling. It really

did feel like a proper spy narrative. The sense of paranoia and danger in that section where he's legitimately playing a double agent. That was really well written and I never in a million years thought that was going to develop out of the initial premise. But let's zero in on specific characters then. What do you think of Hazel or Hazelrah? As they come to be known later, love their little, like, epitaph. I love Hazel. Hazel

is fantastic. I think that there's a really delicate art that came into the creation of a character like Hazel. Hazel represents a sort of... The word that comes to mind with Hazel is jack -of -all -trades. Hazel is not even a fully grown rabbit. He's far from physically the strongest. And this book, considering that it's about fluffy little bunny rabbits, puts a huge emphasis on rabbit size and strength. It depicts them as feisty and territorial and aggressive creatures.

I had bunnies growing up, Duncan. Did you have bunnies? I did indeed. I did not think they were going to be... They were as... territorial and mean as this. A lot was happening in the hutch when I wasn't looking, apparently. I have a good rabbit story, though. I’ll save it for the end of the podcast, but folks should listen for it because I think it's a very good story. But, so, Hazel, not physically the strongest, not even, despite being quite tricky, not even the

smartest. He leaves the thinking to Fiverr and BlackBerry. But Hazel... is an exceptionally good leader. And the way in which this is actually written and depicted and the internal struggle he has to come up with the right ideas, I thought was fantastically done. Some of the strengths here, which I think kind of set above other depictions of leadership, is firstly the lack of infallibility.

Hazel does make the wrong decisions. In fact, early on, there's a section where on our journey, as we set out, where they kind of get to their first false haven. Cowslitz Warren, I think is what it's referred to. And they're like, oh, we could be safe here. And in this moment, Fiverr gets another like, Hazel, Hazel, we've got to go. We've got to go. We can't be here. Hazel's

like, nah, it's fine. I mean, I only left everyone behind last time you had a bad vision, but I’m sure this time it's okay because he's tired and he doesn't want to go out on the run again. And, you know, it seems comfy and there's good food. And this proves to be the wrong decision, but it's a decision that seemed very real for why Hazel is making it. You know, he's exhausted at this point. He's finally gotten somewhere safe. He feels like, oh, can't I just achieve

this? Yeah. But Hazel then makes the mistake, but then learns from it. Like, you can clearly

see he's developing in his leadership role. to listen to those around him and i like the fact that even after like Hazel has learned a lot of lessons and has improved as a leader and is more than that firmly established and respected by the other rabbits he's still making little mistakes like i mentioned before a bit where he's ready to make the tough decision to leave Dandelion behind to like be killed by other rabbits to protect everyone else and he makes this really

hard decision in this in a split second and big wig like disagrees with him says like hold on for just a little longer and then Dandelion does show up and does rescue himself and then managed to get away with everyone so this is definitively you know from a utilitarian point of view the wrong call if like a sacrifice didn't need to be make made but what i find interesting about this story is that none of the characters get bogged down about this they're all practical

enough and sensitive enough to sort of like roll with the punches there and i think there's even a moment right after this where where he where Hazel feels bad for a moment and it reflects No, Dandelion trusts me enough to make these decisions, and they just sort of press on on their adventure. I mean, talking about great leadership, I know it's a very easy comparison to make, but I read about Hazel, this little bunny rabbit, and I’m just like, ah, Jean -Luc

Picard. The spirit lives on. I mean, because I was in that World War II frame of mind, I was going back to Band of Brothers in major winters. But yes, absolutely. And the thing that works about this is he's able to recognize the strengths

of the other rabbits. One of the best things that happens in this story is in a moment of overconfidence, Hazel goes out on a... silly mission you know he does he does something very reckless for very little reward and he gets shot he gets shot by a farmer's shotgun has pellets in his leg and not only for the rest of the story but the rest of his life he can never run as far or as fast again and not only does he pay for this mistake now he can just he just can't

do as much he's now disabled into in rabbit terms So when he goes on future missions, he wants to put himself forward, but he literally can't. He has to start putting other people in harm's way to do the things that have to be done. So, looking at the rest of this band, I guess Fiverr's the next one you've got to chat about. Fiverr's great as well. I love Fiverr. I know, he's so kind of cute in the sense that... I was worried

he might get annoyed, to be honest. To be honest, when he's doing this sort of doom and gloom and he's kind of telling people, like, is this... Where's your personality beyond the visions? But he has one. You know, he's sort of... He's reserved. He's a little bit more skipperish. Is that the right term? Yeah, I’d say so. He's very cute. Like, he's literally... He's the smallest rabbit. He's very intelligent, but he can't accomplish

much for himself. He relies on the others. And... and there's a sense that he could easily get like pushed around and bullied into doing what um when anyone else wants but people you know people love fiverr too much and they recognize his value eventually the value of his insights and um what i also like about him is like you said there's a moment where he could get annoying like that sort of i told you so moment in um with the cowslip farm uh cowshit warren where

he's like you know this is bad we need to leave but the actual way he sort of has his i told you moment is delivered in such a beautiful and dramatic and powerful way that it really just it doesn't make you go oh come on it makes you go wow listen to this fucking rabbit he knows what he's talking about okay and i do want to expand on actually on the cowshit farm because he's brought up you know twice now this is This is the first stop off. They stop off at this

warren. Cowslip is the name of the rabbit. I don't even think it's the head rabbit. It's just one of the other rabbits they meet there. And they're like, come, live with us. It's all nice and roomy. The local farmer, he gives us food. It's lovely. And what we get is rabbits just go missing here and no one talks about it. And this is so brilliantly eerie because I believe at the very start, when it first gets very first

gets mentioned, it's almost offhand. And then it's only when someone starts to push on it and they get that kind of strong slap back, like just quiet. Don't talk about it. You're like, OK, I’ve sat up now. What's happening? What's going on? And it builds and I’m thinking about what's going on, like what the rabbit's doing.

Do they have a. deal is this some weird cult thing i don't know that's just where my brain was going no it but it does have a cultish feel to it um because when you arrive at this warren you know something's wrong just from the point of view of the reader you know it's too early in the book for them to have found their safe place but actually i couldn't really figure out like exactly what the issue was That's what made it so blooming good. We eventually get this reveal

where Big Wig gets caught in a snare. And firstly, this is a great scene because we've got the big, powerful rabbit brought low by this rabbit snare. And we also see who are the clever rabbits who work out how to free him. It was a good scene. Really early moment, I think, with Blackberry being like clawing at the little peg in the ground. You're like, you're the smart guy. I’ve got it. Other people start panicking. And then there's

the... There's the teamwork, because they all burrow in to try and gnaw through the peg that's holding it in place, and once they get down low enough, it's too small, and Hazel immediately says, Fiverr, get Fiverr, he's the smallest, and Fiverr leaps in at once, despite being the weakest and most scared of them all, and he's the one who manages to free Big Wig, and even gets injured in the process, but obviously these rabbits are so good and supportive, and they

care about each other so much that he doesn't care. And... you have this dramatic moment where he unveils the history of this Warren, which is not called Cow Slip. I looked it up. I found the Wikipedia in which it lists the name in the movie, which is Warren of Snares, which is a bit of a giveaway. So it's definitely not called that in the book because otherwise I would have figured it out pretty fast. But as Duncan has alluded to, they are on a farm. This whole area

is set up. with uh it's set up with snares to catch rabbits they're being kept big and fat on purpose but all of these weird eccentricities they have the way in which they put like stones into the wall of their their um the walls of their uh warren no i was gonna say warren i was gonna say this specific word it's this warren is the whole thing but they're actual like tunnels i have a different word for it burrow They've

put stones in the wall of their burrows. And the idea is they're getting more human -like. They're not acting like normal rabbits. They're doing things quite strangely. They don't tell stories about El-ahrairah, the great cultural hero of the rabbits. Because being reminded of freedom and trickery is too painful to them.

And their strangest... eccentricity of all is they would never answer any question that begins with where and and like so did you write firstly i forgive myself now for making it kind of cult -like so where does this where come from why where because this is brought up multiple times where they ask them where where's this place where did they go where does the food come from and the reason why is because it's taboo in this warren to ask where anyone or anything is because

they because when rabbits are caught in the silver wire and they're trapped no one wants to acknowledge that anyone has gone missing that anyone has been sacrificed and they hold on to this delusion so firmly that when other rabbits come looking for Big Wig and Hazel and they identify them as belonging to the same group of rabbits, they attack and kill some of them because they have to defend, to such an extent, the sanctity of their delusion. Okay, I’m massively forgiving

myself for describing it as cult -like. What I really enjoy about this, firstly, from the rabbit's perspective... You know, this cult of delusion. We can't accept the horrors that go on. We've got to just close our eyes to the horrors that are going on around us. Incredibly powerful stuff. Really good to be read on to obviously huge parts of human history. Now, Duncan, before you go any further. But I also really kind of

enjoy this. We should of course bear in mind that according to the author, this book is not an allegory. And you shouldn't read it as an allegory for anything. He said so in the author's notes. So please, don't try and relate this to anything that's happened in human history. But please go ahead. Do what you like, people. I’m sure you'll find the bits that are obvious, obvious, regardless of authorial intent. Back to what

I was saying. What I really enjoy is the fact that this is this main cross -section between the rabbits and the human world we get early on, and that this big mystery from the rabbits is almost so mundane from the human perspective. What is this? It's a free -range rabbit farm.

Yeah. Okay. those are them yeah exactly we know what those are but it's so alien and strange to rabbits that you only see the very edges of it such that it actually becomes a bit weird and mysterious i kept changing my mind when i was reading this section it was like what is wrong with these rabbits at one point they mentioned like the idea of a poison tree and I’m like are they being like poisoned by pollution or something is that why you're acting strange and then later

they mention that farmers come along no sorry they mention that humans come along and drop little white strange smelling sticks which is how cigarettes are constantly referred to throughout the book and amusingly every single human being smokes in every single scene they appear um i think it goes to show the time period this was written in the 1970s but and then i thought oh my god these rabbits are eating nicotine and they're going insane i might have thought that

because last week my girlfriend was going to work and she saw a rap sorry a squirrel holding a vape pen notice her and then run away with the vape oh no poor squirrel it's not good for them no it's fine duncan you know he'll just let out some of that squirrel anxiety That's the chillest squirrel you'll ever meet. Don't litter, folks. Don't litter. That's the message to have taken away from here. But it's not rabbits getting poisoned by cigarettes. It's this much

more normal and yet stranger story. I think my kind of point here is I do enjoy anything where you kind of recast sort of the mundanity of the human world and sort of show it from the animal's perspective being quite horrific. Yeah, of course. And I think they could say for a lot of this book, it's sort of these great battles are taking place. But if you were just a human standing around, you just go, oh, look at the bunnies running back and forth, drawing your cigarette,

walk away. Your little white stick. Something about, the great thing to bring about rabbit perspective is not only do these rabbits have like a culture and a history. They have a language. They speak Lapine. And this book, it's sprinkled throughout with rabbit words. These are words which the author has decided are important enough to rabbits, which, in fact, they need their own word for it. But it's untranslatable to humans

because it doesn't mean anything to us. And that's a really nice kind of cultural building technique. I love the use of language, obviously Tolkien being a bit of a king of it. And to kind of bring this forth to the rabbit culture, I do quite like the idea that they are speaking rabbit, and the author is translating it for us. Exactly. Yeah, there's a bit where... So some of my favourite ones are... There's a word we use, sylphlae.

Sylphlae is the process of going up. above ground in order to feed and the fact that it's given this special word beyond the word graze which seems like the obvious translation it sort of goes to show that this is actually something that has like its culturally significance to the rabbits going up in order to do this is an important cultural process as well as just a sort of natural and biologically important one I’d imagine just this is me kind of going off

book here a bit but like that would be massive because that's ultimately when a rabbit's most exposed and most at risk it's like this natural thing you have to do but you're inherently taking a massive risk to do it watering hole if this was a book you know set in the african savannah whatever animal they choose to um choose to write about sylph lay would be going to the watering hole and braving the the lions and the hyenas and the crocodiles Oh, yes, that reads across

nicely. Oh, there's another good one, which is, I’ve forgotten the word. Maybe you can remember it, Duncan, but all predators are referred to as allele. That's it, it's Elil. And Elil means all predators. So all birds of prey, all foxes, all that, they're all Elil. That's why you need to differentiate. They are a fact. It reminds me, this is really interesting, Duncan, that... Do you know what the word wolf means? Like, when you go back to its origin? Oh, God.

No, I do not know the etymology of... Or can I guess? Is it kind of like Nordic in origin? Well, it's... The direct way in which we get the word wolf is Germanic, yes. But it does go back, I think, to a Proto-Indoeuropean root. Oh, okay. Does it just mean... Oh, what would be a good guess here? All the signs are just being threat or scary? Not far off, Duncan. Not far off. It means “horrid thing.” So the word wolf kind of just means monster. It doesn't mean

dog-like creature. It means “watch out. There's bad animals around.” And the interesting thing is that if you go to, if you go, like you just said, to Nordic languages, they have two words for wolf. One of them is the one I just mentioned. It's Ulfr, which became wolf. And that's, you know, it's a bad connotation, but it can be good. Like you can have, your name could be Ulfr something, like wolf spear. And that's cool because that

means like I’m a wolf. defending my pack you know like I’m a wolf to uh to to other people i I’m very fierce but i have a second word which is I’m gonna struggle to pronounce this with the right the right rolling of the r vargr and where Duncan do we see the word Vargr which is the more dark foreboding which comes basically from the word for outcast like the wolves that don't become dogs basically It shows up in the

word warg. That's why Tolkien chose to call the evil wolves in Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit wargs, not wolves, because he's saying they're bad wolves. I’ve just got such a jigsaw pieces clicking together kind of moment there. I love the origin of the words. And it's fascinating. One more thing I’ll say. On that same line, you can be called... Something that relates to Ulf. But there are no names that come from Vargr. They just don't exist. And one more thing. Sorry,

one more thing. You can see more evidence of... You can see more evidence of wolf not meaning dog -like creature. Because in one of the stories of Ragnarök, the great Midgard serpent Jörmungandr is referred to as a wolf. Okay, just to refer to it as a bad creature. Yeah. Well, everyone, I hope you enjoyed Geordie's special subject on Mastermind. Join us next week where I’ll be doing my subject one day. No, that's really cool to hear. Duncan, we both know your special subject

on Mastermind would be Conan the Barbarian. You're absolutely right. Can I just take this moment actually while talking about the pronunciation of words? Mate, did you listen to the audiobook this time? I did. I listened to the audiobook as well. Who'd voice your one? Peter Capaldi? Peter Capaldi. Absolutely amazing. He did a great job. Shit audiobook, though, but he did a great job. His natural, I don't know, Scottish kind of tones throughout just rang true. He really

gives it his all. The tick that I felt when he was talking about the... You know, the rabbit's culture or the stories of... I don't know if I can get this one right. Also, if we pronounce aim for this wrong, you can just lay the blame at Peter CapaldI’s feet because we're just copying him. The guy went so hard on this. I actually told my partner multiple points. I’m like, this is... This actually is maybe my third favourite thing he's ever done. In terms of his works.

He did the thick of it, he's done Doctor Who, and now I will always remember him as the guy who did Watership Down. Duncan, did you ever watch that one season of Torchwood that was actually good? I mean, the short answer is no. I watched the very first season of Torchwood when it first aired, and I remember just sitting there thinking, what is this? This isn't Doctor Who. Mum, should I be watching this? It's very strange. There's one season, which is like one extended mini -arc.

It's called Children of Earth. Peter Capaldi plays this minor British diplomat in it, which is very funny when he's going to go on to become the Doctor, and it's set in the same universe. But that's fantastic, and he does a very good job in that. Dark as hell, though. It's a very grim series. We're distracted. Peter Pahody did a great job in his audiobook, but the audiobook itself is actually really poorly put together. There are numerous places where audio just vanishes.

Like, um, this is like, this is like the first couple of episodes of this podcast where I was just like accidentally snipping into like previous sentences and I had to go back and change it, but no one has gone back to fix this. Uh, pretty, pretty inexcusable. Oh, definitely, in a professional production. But not a takeaway from his performance. He's an underrated Doctor Who. Love me Peter McCordy. So, Geordie, I feel like there's two

directions I want to take things now. There's the next step in the rabbit's journey, and I really want to talk about actually getting to Watership Down. And I think what most people coming to this would argue is sort of the main plot of the book. But I also want to talk about Big Wig. And I feel like... What's the best approach? Do we go through the narrative and talk about him when we get to his special double agent moment? Or do we just get Big Wig out there? Because Big Wig

is the man. I think we've got to talk about Big Wig because I was really surprised by the character of Big Wig when he first shows up. He doesn't even seem like he's going to be a main character. He seems like he's just going to be a problem. He seems like a middle management guy that you have to sort of get past. Like the story equivalent to a mini -boss. But weirdly enough, Big Wig joins the crew right from the start. He's like the third member. And he stays the third member throughout.

And he only gets more concrete in that role. So the character Big Wig, he is an original home warren. Which 5 has the whole vision about them having to leave. He's kind of the... door guard for the robin's leader who does have a name i have gotten it the rare thura three error yeah it's right it's three a rah because just like Hazel becomes Hazelrah he's three a rah makes perfect sense Big Wig is a member of the upper echelon We're introduced to this idea right from

the start. Fiverr and Hazel are young, small rabbits, and they don't belong to the upper sect of rabbit kind, which is based on age and physical strength. So, Big Wig is important and has authority because he's a very big and tough rabbit. And I think he's often portrayed at the very start, at least. Maybe not the brightest? Like, he's the big muscular bodyguard. But he's not a decision maker. Yeah, he's bullheaded. Keeley, he's... Keeley? Yeah, Kee... Most importantly, he's not

a decision maker. He's not a leader. He's upper echelons, but he still ultimately follows orders. So when he actually breaks out from this and follows Hazel, that's like his first real, like, I’m going my own way moment. But he still represents a threat because, and Hazel's anxious about this as well, because he has like the presumed authority of previously belonging to like this upper class of rabbits. He's physically bigger and stronger. He's very bullheaded. Like he could very easily

take control. of rabbit kind, and we see Hazel is shrewd enough to realise that this could happen, and therefore has to be very delicate around the way he does things. He can't just say, I’m in charge, I’ve got an idea, we're going to do it this way, because he is rightfully concerned that Big Wig would disagree with him, and that would cause a splinter within the group. Now I feel like we're right back in Walking Dead

territory. and although Hazel has this fear and i think from my perspective rightly at the start i actually think very quickly once you get to like know where Big Wig is at he's pretty happy to like he looks up to Hazel in a begrudging way maybe to a point but i think he knows that Hazel's got the right ideas well at first there's a lot of knocking heads because Big Wig is this um you know he's this bullheaded character think straight ahead he's very dismissive of um other

rabbits you know trying to come up with their own ideas like he doesn't like when blackberry is like um has this idea And this is the thing that actually really projected this into a fantasy novel for me, where a rabbit figures out how to make a raft out of wood, and like, okay, yeah, we're not, this is not about rabbits, this is

about something else. He's very dismissive of this idea to try and be clever, but there's this very pivotal moment that happens right after that, where Big Wig is opposed to this idea, he just wants him to just muscle on and do it. But once they do start to cross the river, Big Wig jumps in, at the last, and he uses his strength to push the raft across. And it's complete, it

comes out of nowhere. There's no point up to now that you get the idea that he would in any way be, you know, altruistic, that he would be selfless. But actually, Big Wig's first instinct is do the right thing. He's a simple, slightly thuggish character. But he actually is, you know, he's pointed exactly in the right direction. He cares. That's why I just love him so. So I have this moment, like, after we kind of talk about each one in turn, I’m just once again like,

oh, I really like this character. I enjoyed hanging out with these characters. That cannot be reiterated enough. And I think that's a good example of his kind of progression. Yeah. All right. So let's not get too stuck on Big Wig now. because I feel like if we want to properly discuss his growth and the way in which he serves the story, we'll need to talk about the end of the book first. So let's try and catch up to that point before we do that. So, Watership Down. Right.

They go out looking for a new home, and they find one in a place called Watership Down. They find, like, this safe place at the top of a hill, and... because we've become familiar with rabbit culture and the characters, we understand why this place works, why it's impactful, why it's exciting for them to have found this spot. More than that, it represents this revolution for the characters because they've escaped an old society which had a set way of doing things and

they've learnt things along their journey. about each other. Hazel's now very much in charge and is, like, respected a lot by the other rabbits for his, um, for his guidance. And they also start to do things weirdly. You know, like, they copy the design of the weird rabbits and make something they call the honeycomb, where they make a big interior space near Warren where they can have, like, community meetings, which they

never would have done before. But then disaster strikes Dordy for you see they realise something. Something horrific. Something that will throw the future of their warren and watershed down into absolute doubt. They ain't got no does. No does! I think this is a fantastically rapid issue. I don't know how to describe it. It's... It's their favourite thing to do is hang out

with their does. I mean, I guess when they left the war and it was very much a bros before does situation, but now they have to think about the future. I will just say this now and I don't want to dwell on it. I think there's kind of a sexist issue of this on the book. Like the female characters are definitely treated as secondary throughout in terms of the agency they have,

which is next to none. Oh yeah. And the way even our main characters treat them, they really don't treat them a lot as characters in the same way. There's many times where they refer to them just as collectively as their does or, oh, it was a doe. Don't worry. That's true. I think on one hand, a book is reckoning of us in a way where it's like there's bits in the book is like almost apologetics being like, now you must forgive them talking like this. But this is just how

rabbits talk. And on one hand, you're like, I guess this. Almost makes sense in that you're creating a dynamic rabbit society. And maybe rabbits are patriarchal. I don't know. But yes, it's still a book about intelligent rabbits. There are no female rabbits on the initial expedition. They're all boys. I actually was really surprised by this. I just got the impression maybe it's because I had seen little snippets. of the Watership Down movie, and I think some of them are girls

in that. But yes, they set out on this expedition, they have to collect does, and you're right, the does are very much treated kind of like chattel

in this. They're something to be exchanged. It's like an extension of... you know the knight rescuing a princess from the tower and then receiving marriage in return it's like that on like a much larger scale and as we said like you can play this off oh it's it's rabbit culture at the same time you just could go yeah you've given rabbits an entire folklore and history you could have written it elsewhere you know you didn't have to do it this way i think it's would have been

nicer you know the same fundamentals could have driven this story of them you know needing more people to be with and still giving a little bit more agency even if in the original group there was just one doe and they're like well we can't do it with one yeah it would have functioned and yeah or even it's a mixed gender group and it says well we need more people we need more rabbits and like most of them might be doe But you could be like, we just need more people in

general. And then, like, then carry on. Now, I will say that they are at least saying, like, it's not like they're going out and kidnapping does for their own gain. It's very much, and a priority is placed on establishing this, that this is good for the does, that they are being rescued, that they want to be saved. Because there are times the way it's written that it feels almost like a Viking raid, the way they're talking about this. It sounds like, you know,

like the rape of the Sabine women. But that's not the case in the... That's not the case in which it's written. This is a daring rescue for a bunch of damsels in distress. That being said, he really ups the kill count once the does are in hand. You know, like... Once he gets more rabbits to play with, Richard Adams is like, I haven't killed any rabbits in a while. And then he starts popping them off one by one. Oh yeah, it is a bit of a bloodbath near the end.

And totally, we keep talking about needing to rescue these doves. Who do we need to rescue

them from, though? Who's our villain? Yes. So, again, quite, um, quite... walking dead -ish you know the main threat to the rabbits is not uh the allele and it's not humanity it's um it's their own kind which is always where the greatest horror comes from the great struggle in this book is the establishment of a new society that's the other thing that makes this feel quite post -apocalyptic Not just because their original home is destroyed, but a lot of the fun in this

book is that it's about a journey from danger to a safe haven, and then the defense of that safe haven, and the construction of a new and hopefully better society. That's very familiar in post -apocalyptic stuff. And likewise, the warlord character is very familiar. Woundwart. This guy, he is everything. He's big, he is scary. The animated movie, by the way, makes this rabbit

terrifying. Not that he isn't in the book, but gosh, when someone sets an artist like, draw me a scary rabbit, that man nailed, that person nailed the job. But yes, he's the warlord, he's the governor. And he is fucking scary. Even in the book. Woundwart is... When the book was first described to me, someone once described him as a Napoleonic figure. That's not quite right. But he is... It is a weird thing to say, but he is a terrifying fascist rabbit. You know,

he believes in might makes right. He's an authoritarian. You know, he rules over his warren with an iron fist. And he imposes, like, these hard rules on the way in which characters can live their lives. And this is the bit where it's like, Richard Adams, why do you keep telling me this is not an allegory? Like, like... You just have some confidence, man. You've got to stand up. It's okay to be anti -fascist. It's all right. You've

got a little rabbit Mussolini. It's okay. I think it's okay to say that this book isn't a one -to -one to be mapped over one specific event of the rise of fascism, but more of a breakdown. of the ideology in a more general sense, but even that I’m not 100 % on. Yes, yeah, but when you say that, there's a bit in one of the stories, so there's many times throughout the text that it takes a diversion from the story to tell us

a bit of rabbit folklore. Dandelion will tell a story of the great El-ahrairah, who is the great... rabbit hero of folklore. Like, he's like, um, the Br 'er Rabbit. He's like a trickster. He uses his cunning to outthink many, um, many adversaries and, um, wins, wins the day for rabbit kind,

which normally involves stealing lettuce. In one of these stories, at the end, El-ahrairah, after going through a great ordeal after a rabbit war, He returns to rabbit civilization many years after this has taken place, and he meets a bunch of young rabbits who are like, oh, well, my, like, grandfather was fought in the rabbit war, but I don't think it was actually a big deal. And, you know, I think they basically make all of that stuff up anyway. I don't think anything

especially important happened. And Richard Adams, a World War II veteran, writing... many years after the second world war in the 70s do you feel like you might have something to get off your chest that you're trying to express in this moment but this book is not an allegory right you don't have anything you want to say right now i i just don't understand he's not the only author that shies away from having their work called allegory and I’m like it's not a problem

mate don't worry it's okay It can be very effective. Aliquot is a great tool to introduce these ideas and concepts to people while still shielding them from the truly incomprehensible awfulness that reality was. We'll get on that later. So back to one more. You're right. It is worth. He is the worst. And I do love him for it. This is a fantastic villain. It's great. Because he is so scary and he is so physically imposing. We said before that in rabbit society, might

makes right. He is the biggest, strongest, most aggressive rabbit. And as such, he rules over. But more than that, his ideology stems from this fusion between natural rabbit instinct and a dark... backstory where like he's like the last survivor of a group of wild rabbits killed i think it was by a weasel or a stoat i forget which and then he's raised from um he's picked back up after his injuries by a like a human vet and the surviving this like tragedy turns

him into this aggressive character. And at one point, someone reflects later that the thing that makes him so fierce and so dangerous is that he's more afraid of running away than fighting. So he will always fight. I also just adore the idea that at one point, this horrific villain was just a cute little bunny in a vet's hands. He was like, go on, be free, little one. Go off back into the wilderness. And at no point did

that vet thinking, ah. my little fascist dictator off he goes i um i do what i do like in this book is that is how up for a fight most of rabbits are or at least how up for a fight Woundwart and Big Wig are there's a bit where um Big Wig says after he like chases off a cat like When we have rabbit kittens, I’m going to train them to fight using that cat. And it has such a hilarious notion of a gang of violent rabbits showing up to beat the snot out of farm cats. And I like

that attitude. I also really like about Woundwart. It's a nice little word. It's that he has this sort of warped worldview. But he also is still a character of principles. In his own twisted way, he does think he's doing things the right way. Oh, yeah. Everything he does is for self -preservation. Not just self -preservation, though, but the preservation of his society. Right, yes. Like, he believes in survival above all else. And he believes that, you know, what's it called?

This is a very common phrase. It's an existential question and a question of existence. If we don't follow my rules, we'll all be wiped out. So everything I do is justified. It all says to the greater good. Exactly. So he can do these appalling things because it's all for the right reason. And his ideology can get folded into whatever shape he needs it to be. He wants vengeance. against people who stole his does, well, they represent a threat

to me, so they must be wiped out. And the funny thing about it is that, like, his rabbits are set up as a, like, prominent physical threat to Hazel's rabbits. Hazel's rabbits have a couple of heavy hitters, like Silver and Big Wig, but pretty much every rabbit is, like, a step above the average in Hazel's group. And they're really good at tracking them down. So there is this actual ever -present sense of danger. After they

escape, they're immediately on... After Big Wig's big escape from the enemy Warren, they're immediately on the run and losing rabbits because the fight and the chase is so intense. So let's just kind of run through the events when Hazel's group comes up against Woundwart. We have this initial interaction and Hazel's group initially go as sort of, you know, they go with peace. They're like, yo, can we trade? We just want a few does. How can we make this work? And Woundwart immediately

pushes back on that quite violently. And so we get to the second plan. Yeah, he press gangs them into his own warren. He says, if you come into my territory, you belong to me. So we have this initial escape, and then they're all thinking, what do we do? And I quite like the fact that we get, once again, the clever ones, Blackberry. I think Fiverr has an input, comes up with this plan to send Big Wig in to pretend to be a lone wolf, a lone rabbit. who wants to sign up, who's

big and strong, and is like, yeah, come on. You want me to join your group? I’m down with what you're selling. And then he's going to work from within to spring a mass escape. A great escape.

and it's as we said before this bit is really exciting it's really daring it really feels like a spy narrative building trust from the inside not knowing who you can talk to there's a bit where like one of the rabbits who's being told about the escape plan is being interrogated so you have a moment of like one of our inner circles got busted by vickistapo and we need to launch our plans early Dramatic stuff. Really well written.

Good stuff. Also, really just kind of brave, I think, from an authorship kind of standpoint. Because this is a fairly decent bit of the plot that we're not following who I would identify as our main character. Hazel is not in this bit. Yeah. He's not part of this adventure. We only get to see Hazel in a couple of little cutaways and always to hype up the drama and the excitement to be like, we haven't heard from Big Wig. He didn't report in. What's going on in there? And

so it's used advantageously. We don't get to see Hazel and her crew nearly enough to ensure our confidence in the plan. It's like not seeing the shark in jaws, not knowing whether Big Wig's friends are going to be able to help. So we have finally the big escape scene. This might actually be my favourite action scene in the book. I love how they... It's very good. I agree. I wouldn't say it's my favourite, but yeah. Well, I like it how certain things come back because don't

they, they escape down a river again. So it's that kind of call back to the earlier scene. You know, Big Wig has seen what works. It's something that kind of slightly confuses the local rabbits for at least a short while when they kind of make off down the river. And like I said, you don't know where they are. Exactly. There's this really great bit where they come up with this clever escape plan. And then there's this moment of, well, now what? Because, you know, it's out

of the frying pan into the fire. They go down river and then their boat gets stuck. And then rabbits do not like to swim. It's very disadvantageous. And then there's this moment of having to solve this new problem. And I really like the way this tension is ramped up in this scene. But you're right, eventually they do get back and things get to develop further. Now, Geordi, this is

what I really want to talk about. The enemy rabbits are then like, right, they've gone back, we've tracked them, they're at Watership Down, we're going to go and take them. And they send in, not Woundwart, but one of his captains, I think. Is it Capion? Campion. Campion. It's like I didn't actually hear someone say it this time, but then I wrote it down, and obviously then it has to go through my appalling dyslexic phonetic spelling, and I’m having to read it back to myself. Captain

Campion. They discover that I watered it down, and we get this really cool mole dilemma. Such actually walking... Do you know what? This was clearly such a big inspiration on The Walking Dead than anyone's ever called it out for before. This is such a scene. where this patrol group, getting their water shit down, Hazel and F1 identifies them, and then they're like, we've got to kill them all, so they don't find out where we are. I can't understand the character that says this.

It's not Black Bray. Who is it who's like, we need to kill them all? Maybe Silver? Silver's cool? I’ll go with Silver. Silver makes this cool. But Hazel, being our morally righteous person, Doesn't. And they eventually do... Woundwart and his men come back to Watership Down to take it. Actually, you know who it was? It was, um... It was, like, what is it called? Like, Blaggard. Like, the captive rabbit they rescued from, um... From the other Warren. Oh! Oh, from Woundwart's

Warren. Yeah, it's, um... Blackavar. yeah he's the one who says that but yes you're right uh Woundwarts and his crew eventually like catch up to them they find warship down which they hoped they never would and um prepare for an a war like a proper rabbit war and there are lots of little moments in this climax which i think are just the most beautiful crescendos to these characters that we've seen develop over the course of the novel I think we get this,

this climax. It's, it's, it's legitimately amazing. I once, I had high expectations of this scene because Duncan, once upon a time, I was on, uh, I was on Reddit. I was on the fantasy subreddit and someone said, what is the best battle in fantasy? And the top comment was, um, what was it? It would be, uh, Helm's Deep. And then someone brought up, The next one was the battle from the heroes. And the third one was like some big battle in the wheel of time, whatever that is.

And then the fourth from the top was the battle for Watership Down. I’m tempted to put this above Helm's Deep. Maybe I need to reread it. It's definitely clearer. Yeah, it's so exciting. It's so dramatic. It really, it's so full of dread. It really does feel like, my God, how are they going to get out of this? You really feel like everything is on the line. And it's all of these, we have three main characters, basically, and all of them get to contribute in a way that feels

unique to them and feels perilous. Fiverr has this really strange contribution, which is... It really highlights and taps into this ephemeral magic. You know, we know that Fiverr has these strange instincts. And the way he contributes to the final battle, despite being the smallest rabbit, is he, like, freaks out. And he makes this, like, I was supposed to say inhuman, un -rabbit -like noise. He makes this strange bellow

where he says, Get out! Get out! and then like he gets into such a fit because of this this this this great effort but he like collapses and he like almost dies from stress but the sound that this makes we've glossed over the fact that like the thing that makes Hazel's crew unique is that they collaborate with non -rabbits They have a seagull friend called Kaha, and the enemy rabbits know this, so when they hear this noise from down below, they go, oh my god, they've

got another, like, alien on their side. What the hell's going on? And it freaks out the enemy, and it slows them down. A really nice kind of development, by the way, which we have Saisha kind of glossed over, is the fact that, you know, Hazel's group is doing things differently, and that's why they're so effective. Yes, Fiverr gets this great moment where he kind of digs deep. Big week's moment. Oh, my God. Going for the fight. Standing his ground. This is last

stand territory. JT now might be one of my favourite moments of a warrior going, right, there's the line in the sand. No one's going to cross it while I’m still alive. Absolutely. It's totally classic stuff in its own way. And yet. Something about this scene just makes it stand out above all the other hold the line scenes to me. Because the way in which this works, the invasion happens, they're outnumbered, they're outgunned because

all these rabbits are really big and mean. Hazel comes up with one last plan and he tells Big Wig, Big Wig, stay here and don't let them pass until the plan comes through. Big Wig does not know what the plan is. There's no time to explain. Hazel and some other rabbits go tearing off. And we don't even get to know what the plan is. All we know is Big Wig has to stand here. And the first person to come in after him is Woundwart, the biggest, meanest, most vicious rabbit. It's

waiting for the cavalry to come. It's my favourite fantasy trope. It's true. So... When Big Wig comes to the stand, there's a great deal of characterisation which really shows the different worldview here. And I want to really hype this up because I think it's so important to World of Warcraft's characterisation and Big Wig's character development. Big Wig puts up a really good fight. He stands his ground, he gives his all, and he almost, he's like torn

to shreds in this fight. But he still forces. Woundwart back. Woundwart, for the first time ever, retreats from a fight. And Woundwart challenges him, wanting to understand, why don't you move? Why don't you get out of the way? And Big Wig says, simply, as though it's the most obvious thing in the world to him, my chief rabbit told me to stand my ground here, and I’m not going until he tells me otherwise. And how does Woundwart

respond to this, Duncan? Woundwart, in his limited worldview, is just like, wait, Big Wig isn't the chief. If this is, like, how bad is this? How big and fierce must the boss be if Big Wig is taking orders? And that's the thing that really works about this scene. If... You know, he had a better philosophy. If Woundwart wasn't convinced in the power of right makes might, he would win. You know, his ideas are what failed him. It's a wonderful moment, but then we actually then

do get Hazel's moment. Hazel's, remember he tears off with Blackberry, my man. I don't know, all of them are great. If anything, I think Silver, I think I maybe underappreciate. I agree. I think Silver really needed a moment. Yes, he's like one of the younger ones, isn't he? They go screaming off because, hey, there's a clever idea. And they go back to a farm they visited earlier. And they're going to... Basically, they're going

to go and lure the dog to the battlefield. Somewhat, you could describe maybe as the nuclear option. Just as likely to harm everyone involved. Anyway. And... This is our climax. This is the cavalry arriving in this terrifying form. This great Labrador comes boarding onto the scene. And I really do think it's, I mean, it's tragic, sad, slightly, slightly humorous. Because we've been dealing with these big, burly, scary bunny rabbits.

And there is a little bit when the dog shows up and you go, oh yeah, they're still just rabbits. Oh, I don't know, they're just getting slaughtered. I know. It's so great that, like, this great battle, you know, like a medieval stand, just suddenly a bigger, more fearsome animal shows up. And that animal, like, it's only described as a dog up to this point. It's only later when the humans get a perspective on it that, like, oh, it's a Labrador called Bob. I know. So he,

Bob, Bob tears through the battlefield. Now, there's some... Key bits here, but I think just to kind of hit on, I think one of the most important, is Woundwart's fate. Because Woundwart, he doesn't back down from a fight, even when it's very clear he should. And Woundwart stands his ground against this lumbering animal coming towards him. And we don't get to really see what happens to him. No, that's the great thing. You know, like... All the other rabbits bolt as he's like, cowards,

stand your ground. That's my Peter Bacaldi wound wart impression. And we never find his remains. You know, they come out after the battle is done and they're like, there's no sign of Woundwart. What could have happened to him? To me, I’m like, well, there's no trace of him because he got eaten. There is nothing left because he is in Bob the Labrador's tummy. But this actually becomes really interesting, the way in which the vanishing

of Woundwart is used. Because after the story's done, and we move forward into the future, and they've made this new society in which Hazel has managed to create, there's this fantastic moment. I really like this, Duncan. I hope you did as well. We've heard all these amazing stories

of El-ahrairah throughout their adventures. where they've taken inspiration from him and he's acted as this the source of of courage for them because like oh if if the great Ella Rayra could get through worse stuff we can get through this one of the does one of the mothers is telling a story to Fiverr's children and she recounts the story of the farm of silver wires but with Ella Rayra as the hero And the wonderful thing is, the rabbits who were there don't even realise that this is

what's happening. I know. It's such a nice moment to see how their folklore continues to be adding to it. For a second there, and it gets corrected almost immediately, I was like, is this sort of the story of how Ero Ero never existed? Is he just this combination of all of rabbits, heroism and feats? Oh, I think... I think that's exactly the implication. And because I think that's, this is how they tell an, they keep an oral history.

They keep a history of great events and they attribute them to one rabbit so that it can be passed down. And they use the wisdom of the ages from rabbits like Fiverr, like Big Wig, like Hazel, who survived to tell their stories and add them to the canon of El-ahrairah. But we also get this lovely addition because there's another legend now among rabbits. Not just the glorious adventures of El-ahrairah, but also of the boogeyman of rabbits. The terrifying figure of Woundwart who haunts

the grounds. General Woundwart. Exactly. He's the new boogeyman. He's the one who says, like, oh, you better behave, little rabbit kitten. Otherwise, Woundwart will get you. I think it's such a nice idea of, like, he was larger than life as a character to a lot of people as well. So the fact that he kind of goes into their oral history. In a weird way, it's almost a bit upsetting that, like... Our villain becomes like this named part of oral history and our heroes just blend

into the legacies that already exist. Now, I’m glad you brought that up, Duncan, because I need to correct myself. Because I noted this whilst I was reading it because I had the exact same

thought as you. But actually, when they say... oh oh be be a good rabbit and behave or the general will get you they don't actually say Woundwart he becomes a stock character like someone out of commedia dell 'arte you know he's now depersonalized unlike the others who are at least personalized in the character of elorera and whatever his his buddy you know his moon glum is called you know i suppose you're yeah no you're right and in many respects it's sort of just goes to the

fact that Hazel embodies Eleira at this point. If Eleira never exists, then Hazel is as much Eleira as any other rabbit has ever been. Exactly. And that's what I liked about this revelation. It's the fact that not only are the feats that our characters that they've done are elevated to that of legend, they've now become part of

this canon. It also, it made me feel this warm and fuzzy feeling inside to know that generations and generations of rabbits, and considering how short their lives are, probably thousands of generations of rabbits have succeeded. They've gone through these same trials and they've come out the other side, able to tell their kittens about their own stories to pass them down. All these different legendary ideas that we've seen attributed to Elorira were once upon a time,

they were just ordinary rabbit adventures. Stealing rabbit from human farmers. Tussling with Elio. And I just really liked that. I just really liked this idea that all of these little adventures hold this great significance in their society. So, Eddie, I believe we are moving to a close now. So would you like to just give your kind of final thoughts and recommendations? Watership down. If you haven't been paying attention, we

very much liked it. But I think there is maybe a slightly more complex question of who we recommend it to. Now, that is a good question, Duncan. Myself, I think this is a pretty universal recommendation. I don't know. So the great challenge of this is that. Your first instinct is to say, it's about rabbits, so it's for kids. And that's obviously not true because of all the violence. But Richard Adams did tell this story. It began as a story to his two daughters. We learned that in the

preface to the book. I don't know when I would start recommending this to kids. I think 12 or 13 might be the right point. That's when I read The Knife of Never Letting Go, and this book is about the same in terms of violence. I’m inclined to very much agree with you. This book is a very universal recommendation for me. I think it's beautifully done. It achieves everything it sets out to do, and it has a general poignancy which puts it on the upper echelons of all books that

we have covered on this podcast. That recommendation is hard. Yeah, I definitely agree. That misconstruing around the rabbits is something that I’m like, oh... But I think you're right. Maybe I would just have to maybe just call this PG. Is that cheating? Parental guidance. You're an adult. You know your kid. Make a call. Yes, that's true. Probably not below 10. But I probably saw the movie when I was eight. I’d say so. And that

was probably worse than the book. My dad read to me, like, The Suttle Knife and the Amber Spyglass when I was 10, and I think I was just about the right age for that, because there is some violence in those books as well. But not the ideas in this are not as hefty. So yeah, I’m 11, 12 years old, enough to know what sex is, basically. And more than that, yeah, not just for kids, this is a universal recommendation for me. If you like fantasy... You should read this book because

it's an amazing adventure story. And this is a weird thing to say on this podcast because I am literally speaking to the air. If you're not a fan of fantasy, this is a great book anyway. Like, it doesn't feel like a fantasy novel. Fiverr may be a wizard, but he's not like a Gandalf wizard, you know? No, it foregoes a lot of the traditional trappings. Like I said, even at the start, I originally thought I was getting into a bit of a traditional quest format. I was like,

here's our fellowship. Off we go. But GeordI’s right. It does have a little bit more of that post -apocalyptic, journeying across the harsh land kind of vibe, rather than your Lord of the Rings. Or even like a Saving Private Ryan. Yes.

Yes, another great one. It genuinely has more of a vibe in tune with... world war ii stories of bands of brothers or saving private ryan than it does with some of your more classical fantasy not that they don't probably have a joint inspiration again tolkien world war one you know it's it's all feeding in there but that's generally where i you can more directly see those influences or draw parallels no way to put it all right mate great book I reckon to pretty much anyone,

if you like this podcast, you'll like this book. I full -heartedly agree. It's a shame about some of the production values on the audiobook. And if you do like this podcast, please rate it five stars on your podcast service of choice. Absolutely. If you have read Watership Down and want to share your thoughts with us, if you've seen one of the many different adaptations, tell us what they're like. I’ve only seen the classic animated one. I know there was one on Netflix a few years

back. Let us know. The best place, as always, is our Instagram, instafantasypodcast on Instagram. You can also email us directly at instafantasypodcast .gmail .com. We have a Blue Sky account now, so go and check us out over there. Oh, we do? We do. I didn't even know that. Very little gets posted there, but I am picking up the slack. It's always great to hear from you. It makes our weeks every time. And if you're listening on a podcasting app, please do and just drop

us. uh review hit for five stars or how many stars you think we deserve it goes an awful long way if anything just makes our day duncan what is the blue sky it's what's outside oh right sorry seriously it is a social media platform similar to um duncan what is our blue sky account oh good question georgie We are Just Fantasy Podcast on Blue Sky. We weren't allowed enough letters for the full name. It was an agony to write. Okay, cool. We're Just Fantasy Podcast

at Blue Sky. Thank you, Duncan. Well, I will definitely be checking that out since I just found out it exists. And, Duncan, I bet people can find out a little bit more about what we're reading next time if they head to our Blue Sky. But, Duncan... What is that going to be? What book are you going to choose for us? Geordie, we've had an amazing start to the year. We've hit some big names, and somewhat I want to continue that tradition. But we've also gone quite off

-piste. We've done different things that have got a different spin on the fantasy genre. And, Geordie, I want to go and eat some comfort food again. I’m sorry, after the Bonesmith, that might appall you, the idea. That's just what I’m feeling in the mood for. So I’m going to do a book that I’ve been meaning to do since our very first

year of doing this podcast. It's by an author that I can say that I’ve enjoyed everything of theirs that I’ve read, but I certainly haven't read nearly even half of all their works because they are one hell of a prolific author. We're going to be reading Magician by Raymond E. Feist, the first in the Rift War saga. And to be more precise, Geordie... Because I’m nice, and we've only got two weeks between episodes, we're going to be covering Magician's Apprentice, also Magician

Part 1, depending on your region. All right. Okay. So this is the Rift War saga. It's pretty famous in fantasy circles. I really don't know anything about it whatsoever. I know it's about wizards. Lots of wizards. And that's it. I don't know when it was published. I don't know. how many books there are in a series. I get the feeling that this, we are going back to quite traditional fantasy, however. Oh, Geordi, I’ll tell you now. There are wizards, there are knights, there are

dwarves, there are elves. This has got all the classic Tolkien -esque trappings in it. I don't think we've actually had a book on the podcast so far. In the, like, coming on to three years that we've been doing this podcast. Not coming on, over three years. that we've actually had dwarves and elves in the story. Dickodge, you may be right. Well, it's about time. So, I hope you enjoy it. I hope you appreciate it for what it is. If you've experienced Rift War, let us

know your thoughts on it. I can tell you now, I’ve only read the original trilogy or saga of Rift War. I think it's called the Rift War Saga and the greatest is called the Rift War Cycle. I may have got those the other way around. There's so much content here, and I have to say, it's something that I’ve read before and I’m a real fan of, so I hope you like it too. Well, I’m very interested, and I’m looking forward to it. And I will be looking forward to it next time.

I’ve been your host, Geordie Bailey. And I’ve been your other host, Duncan Nicol. Till next time. Bye!