The Heroes

Hello and welcome to another episode of Is This Just Fantasy, the podcast where every other week two nerds get together to rate read and review A fantasy novel. I’m your host, Black Tooth Geordie. And I’m your other host Merciless Duncan. Oh Those are our northern names

Yes, if and Geordie's already a pretty northern name. Duncan's a Scottish name, mate. It's Not necessary, but here we are rent embrace the spirit so If you hadn't picked up so far we are reading we're jumping back into the oh What do you even call it The Blade Itself? The First Law series. What is it called? It's the First Law of course universe

It's very confusing. We've got the First Law trilogy and then they sort of just call the rest of the series The First Law universe series doesn't have a cool name Mmm, because this is the second this is the second book in the second series within the First Law Chronicles, that's right by Joe Abercrombie

We started by reading the first book in the second series Best Served Cold earlier this year. It was a great time now I Have already read the original trilogy and I intentionally got Geordie not to read that first Partly because I don't think The Blade Itself is that amazing or at least as amazing as the books that come afterwards and also The marketing has always pushed that you can read the second series without reading the first one and I want to test it out on Geordie

And I think we definitely found that was pretty true in the first one Like it was amusing in some ways because it took me a pretty good portion of a book To realize that the Bloody Nine was Logen Nine Fingers. They were the same person I didn't realize that at first and a character called the cripple who I thought was like just like a

Background character that people sometimes talked about. Oh, no, that's a main character. So that was funny But I think it pretty much I did just like get to enjoy the book and I didn't need to do any homework beforehand However Duncan, I really don't think that you could read this second book without having read

The one before it and also haven't said yet. We're reading for heroes the one that comes after Best Served Cold But I have no idea how you were able to read this book before you read Best Served Cold Duncan Yes, that's the point I read The Heroes before I read Best Served Cold mostly because I knew that The Heroes were set in the bit of this universe You know

It's called the north where the barbarians are fighting the colonialist powers of The Union who have continued trying to expand into their territory And that was my favourite bit of the setting from the original trilogy. So I went right I’m going straight in for The Heroes and I'll tell you now Geordie. I

Read it. Absolutely fine. Genuinely the bits that reference Best Served Cold meant nothing to me because I thought well Yeah This book would be harder to read if you hadn't read the original trilogy because so many of the characters in this book like Black Dow. Bethod, the Dog Man, they're all heavily featured in that original trilogy So how did you get on and I didn't have I didn't have any problem following the story I wasn't sure to what extent certain characters were important like

Because they'd read Best Served Cold. I knew the Bloody Nine is a big deal I’m like, okay The fact these people are talking about having like killed for Bloody Nine or we've been on the same side as him I guess here's the thing I said that and I’m like, oh is that a spoiler? But the funny thing is that like I have no idea if it is because I think Black Down might just be lying about that like I That's the great thing about this book is people say so much bullshit

But it isn't true and I’m like, are you just making that up? Did that actually happen in the books or not? I have no idea I’m gonna tell you now for this point reading the universe. You're not meant to know that is actually very intentional on behalf of the author So that's interesting. I’m glad I’m having the right experience the bits which I think that's like Like cuz you read this book. Did you know who Caul Shivers was when you first read this book?

the character of course Shivers is a side character in the original trilogy and one the main characters in Best Served Cold and reading this book before Best Served Cold I had no idea what had happened to this poor guy because when you leave this What happened to you in the end of the original trilogy? He kind of goes off with a bit of a hopeful smile and I’m gonna have a better life and then reading The Heroes

It's like he's missing an eye. He's heavily scars and he's like I’m having the worst time ever and I’m like, oh dear god Things were bad But I also didn't know that that happened on page because I didn't know the plot of Best Served Cold

I was like, maybe it was meant to happen off page and I'll also tell you this for nothing. I Forgot between reading The Heroes and reading Best Served Cold That Caul Shivers is in The Heroes like I genuinely read Best Served Cold completely Later horribly scars and diminished

Well, that's good. It didn't ruin your experience of Best Served Cold then because you forgot the bit I think is would be let down and this is just because I’ve read Best Served Cold and I can't imagine someone Not having read Best Served Cold before this but the stuff with Gorst and his humiliation Which happens is a really minor event in Best Served Cold It becomes one of the main plot points of this book that one of our big

Our big heroes like has to redeem himself because of shit that happened in the previous book and You're supposed to be like, oh my god him and Caul Shivers the guy who just so happened to cause that downfall spoilers, Geordie You're right, okay no spoilers yet But they're on the same battlefield and you're waiting for them to run into each other and for is he gonna realize that it's him and It's really interesting how that plays out but To begin with no spoilers and to begin with more Duncan

Because we ask each other this every time Have you been reading anything else? No, this has been enough for me reading The Heroes has been an absolute experience

And it's literally all my time is dedicated to it. Yeah, and the same goes for me I actually thought it wasn't going to be able to make it through because it is a chunky book but I managed to buy a combination of reading both the physical book and the audiobook on Spotify and It really was perfect because the book itself is way too long for the 15 hour long 15 hour limit Spotify gives you to read a book for free

But because I also own the physical book I sort of just jumped back and forth between them based on where I was So if I was in bed, I would read the book and if I was going to work I would listen to the audiobook and I was like, okay, great I’ve got the best of both worlds and you need to have the physical book This is the first time I think in a whole podcast. I’m like you literally Cannot get by without having a physical book because this one has something pretty unique to it

A lot of fantasy novels have maps at the front most of the time. They're pointless This is the least pointless a map has ever been in a fantasy novel That's right, Jordi. I even remember having to tell you about this. You were like, oh, what's the importance?

I was like no, it's so critical because this map it doesn't even show like a massive area. It's not a continent It's the map of the very close-knit battlefield that this book Almost entirely focuses on but what's really important is that throughout the book this map gets updated For the reader as troops move about the battlefield and this is so important for the plot like Joe Abercrombie as Well, literally you can see it

He is mapping it out for you and the whole focus of this fight is that he is mapping it out every step If a guy's over there, he is never gonna have a conversation with the bloke standing over there You know is beat by beat step by step hour by hour mapped out yes and More so like there's a really strong emphasis in this book on literally the strategies which characters are employing It's a book about war But it's not like a Saving Private Ryan book

It doesn't try and say war is bad by showing how gruesome it can be it shows that war is bad because it's tedious and it's stupid and so you get down to the minutia of troops moving around on this little board and Then sitting there and waiting for days on end one of the characters in this book and now I guess we're going to get into characters is Corporal Tunny and the great thing about Corporal Tunny is that he's the most experienced soldier in the entire book

He's only a corporal. He's not a general and he's not like a warchief like on the northern side but what he is is That he's just a guy who's been in the army for a really long time and will do whatever it takes to not have to fight I Love this character. I love the fact that we're going straight into like the structure of a light we pregnant But like yeah, this we're gonna hit all the main POV characters and

We haven't even said if we really endorse the book do you endorse the book? Do you like this book? Oh, yeah This is a great book. I don't know if it's as good as Best Served Cold I think they're pretty I think the heights of this book are better than the heights of Best Served Cold But it has a slightly slow ending and Best Served Cold had a great ending. So I think it's just edging it out Absolutely fair enough. I feel agree with your assessment. I love this book. I

Really enjoy the individual characters that we see. I think it's message on war is beautifully delivered But I think you're also right. It wasn't as consistently rip-roaring Best Served Cold is excellent, it’s quite episodic. We go and have the always like mini adventures harkening back to those sort of short story action sword and sorcery that I adore this one It plays out a little slower

It really gives you those laws and combat in a weird way. It kind of reminds me of like reading like Master and Commander we have long stretches of book where it's kind of like a bit more chill and then though that just makes the moments of Actual heightened action just all the more intense This is a book where for the most part aside from some really major characters There is a strong feeling of fatality, you know, you really believe it when a fight starts

Okay people important characters are going to die I’m gonna see it happen and it's not going to be retconned out of the way Really actually what you can count on most of all is not that characters will die. It's just that characters will be miserable. I Think that's a really solid outtake live or die. They're having a bad day

And I think that being just right anytime. I wanted to predict what would happen next in the story I was just like what would make Gorst unhappy and I just decided that would happen and I was always correct And what we see of this battle is as mentioned for those six key POV's throughout the book that we keep jumping between on both sides of the conflict and Then bringing that back to Tunny one of the minor POV's I’d actually say in terms of impacting events

But very good at giving you that probably the low Lowliest soldiers outlook Probably I think aside from random POVs we occupy. Yes He's basically the lowest ranking dude like even a guy who starts off the story uh call no, no, no, sorry not Calder

Craw. Craw starts off and he seems like a pretty unimportant guy, but he ends up being super important by the end so very true Geordie actually before we jump back to Tunny, I know we're darting about like madman I think I do need to just lay down this conflict a little bit more clearly and then we can jump between sides fair enough So The Heroes named after a sort of stone hinge kind structure on top of a hill on the north side

Of a river and approaching upon it. We have two parties the Northmen led by Black Dow the most recent king of the north Not a very nice man. Not very well liked And from the south we have union which is the traditional Roman British colonial power That's pushing up into these rights. You've got barbarity versus civilization That's definitely one way to put it and this real conflict I mean I’m not even 100 sure why they're fighting each other

I think The Union have taken some land and the Northmen want it back. Some people just want to fight. It's just what you do

It's revealed later on. Yeah, absolutely It's um, it's all about like The Union trying to seize like some important power And and and ultimately but the absolute point is that it's basically pointless like the characters are doing this because Just because of like almost bureaucratic Stagnation like they could achieve a lot if they were able to talk but Black Dow can't just like acquiesce to any demand from union because it would make him look weak

So he has to fight even though he's not a great man No one's actually fighting over the territory where they're meeting. It's not like they're fighting in order to have The Heroes. The Heroes are pointless. It's just a well

Defendable location. So the northerners are like, okay, let's stand here and let them come to us And throughout the book you've got these intelligent political characters who are saying, you know, warfare is the least It's the least profitable is the least effective form of getting things done But we're doing it anyway Well, that's nicely summed up back to Tunny. Tunny's great because Tunny realizes this And Tunny wants to stay alive He's long. He has no time for heroics

Exactly. He's left that that was for that's for the young and the dead heroics Tunny's here to technically fulfil his orders and not die doing it And what I like about this is that like recently I’ve started listening to a couple of like podcasts that aren't really about war

But just so happen to be run by guys that used to be in the U.S. Amy And so occasionally they'll sprinkle in an anecdote about like being in Afghanistan or Iraq And the overwhelming impression you get is that it's so much of the time spent there is just sitting in your hands waiting not doing anything Certainly not doing anything of real importance And this book really captures especially in Tunny's sections that It's very tedious stuff like We won't get into proper spoilers on Tunny's section

But Tunny spends about four days standing in the same spot Not doing anything And that's not like a critique of the book and saying oh this book's boring because Tunny doesn't do anything No, that's the point and it's interesting and it's funny And it's observant. It's weirdly the closest thing to almost like a Terry Pratchett character Maybe that's quite an out there thing to say about Joe Abercrombie writing

But this is no but you're right. The tone is somewhat different, of course, but like this is just like an Sam Vimes with like a couple more Scales on the jaded, you know the jaded radar and it's really enjoyable to read But as you kind of said him kind of why we're addressing him first That's because he stands a lot of time just sitting there making his observations and being amusing I think he's very much good at reading

Making his observations and being amusing. I think he's very much good for the pacing of the book It sort of brings levity from when you're reading maybe another section with some pretty intense emotional gut punches throughout

It's like oh, thank goodness. We're back with Tunny not to say though Georgia I don't know if you felt this um on your first read I remember feeling this quite a lot on my first read is I actually got quite a lot of anxiety In the later parts of the book with Tunny plus like oh no, is he going to go really wrong for him at the last minute?

No, I completely predicted what was going to happen with Tunny like basically from like the third time he showed up I can't explain that without getting into spoilers So shall we hold off and get back to that later? Absolutely. Let's move on to another Really enjoyable character Let's hop the fence and let's talk about the other side so on the Northmen side we have

Some really interesting characters here there. So I said there's six overall kind of main POV characters They're Not quite evenly split Are they? Oh, no, actually they are sorry being an idiot. Yes, they are evenly split So on the Northmen side we have the young boy Beck who's just left home for the first time Taking his father's sword of course

And he's off. He's Off. He's just drunk on the stories that the old men tell around the fire of his father's heroics And the honour and glory to be won on the battlefield Yeah, and his father's great story of heroics is much like a lot of people getting killed by the Bloody Nine Completely Geordie. I just want to like what is your impression of the Bloody Nine at this point? Like How does he stand in your mind?

My impression is that and listen I am you know, I love being in a position of only having heard about this character by reputation Never having seen his own perspective never actually seeing anyone up close in first person say I’m looking him dead in the face and this is what I think And what I love about this is that I get the impression that he has this extremely dark reputation which stands on top of probably a much more

Intricate and maybe a bit more soulful character the thing which we will keep Mentioned he says a lot is you have to be realistic And what I get the feeling of is that he's someone who does extremely dark Of violent things because he feels like he has to like he's driven to do it And he probably spends a lot of his time kind of feeling bad about that He has to do it, but he can't break the pattern of behaviour which leads him to keep repeating these violent actions again and again and again

Honestly Geordie That's a pretty fantastic summation of the character Hooray I understand fantasy novels. He's not Caul Shivers in this book where he's just I don't care I enjoy being violent because I need some sense of power and control in my life No, that's not the impression. I get of him at all. Although it's what other people might say about him Oh definitely nonetheless So nonetheless with Beck. Beck is a character who looks up to guys like the Bloody Nine who killed his dad

And he's like hell. Yeah, I’d like to be like that He's drunk off the ideas of what it means to be a man What it means to be a hero what it means to be a soldier and he's eager to sign up When like the people come around to like draft him into the army and his story is the least funny it's Probably the darkest and it's definitely the most on the nose in terms of being an anti-war book

This is the Saving Private Ryan bit. I’m inclined to agree. This is where it really rolls out to one character how traumatizing Combat can be there's quite a few characters in this book who are completely desensitized to violence And if all your characters are like that Then the book becomes desensitized to violence and you as the reader then become desensitized To what the book's describing so I think it's great to have Beck there as a very to be honest

Relatable and probably my own perspective character on what's going on sure exactly Beck should be the insight. He should be the person who you're you read this book and you're like I kind of want to be you know, like one of the cool calm collective badass characters Is most of whom we don't actually get like an internal monologue on with the exception being Gorst who's the opposite of Beck in every way pretty much But you're supposed to think damn. I probably would end up being Beck wouldn't I?

Beck's experiences of battle are harrowing and more than that. It's not even that it's like oh, it's dark It's the fact that he's completely inert and powerless. He's incapable of taking any action once the sword starts swinging He's so paralyzed by fear Again something the characters keep saying in this book is that war is either boring and tedious or I can't know what exactly say like it's like arse-openingly scary sounds about right

So yeah, he's paralyzed by fear like it's a physical reaction. He doesn't get you know fight he gets freeze I mean, I think he's lucky. He doesn't get flight or his own side would probably have cut him down If he had chosen flight, he probably would have ended up in a much better state by the end of the novel I love what he happens in his later scenes after You know what Duncan actually I think we kind of have to drop the spoiler thing because if we need to discuss

Like characters and why they work. I think we are going to have to um get past the We can't just circle back and do everyone again after we cross over like the arbitrary spoiler barrier I think that's very fair So before we go any further Duncan do you recommend this book?

Yes, obviously I recommend this book anyone who listened to our Best Served Cold episode probably would have been able to guess I was going to have to recommend this book as well because it's fantastically written if you like Best Served Cold You'll like The Heroes if you haven't read anything. I actually think you could read The Heroes

But you should at least read Best Served Cold. You don't need to read the first trilogy It is not necessary But The Heroes and with this one in particular uh, it's It works so well as a standalone and Duncan you can attest to that because you hadn't read Best Served Cold before this and I haven't read any of uh The Blade Itself not The Blade Itself, but First Law trilogy

The First Law trilogy. I keep wanting to say Sword of Truth very different vibes So yes, it works as a standalone and so much so that if you don't even read fantasy novels and for some reason You're listening to this podcast If you don't really agree with you like sci-fi novels that have like action elements You should read this if you like Tom Clancy novels or Bernard Cornwell novels or Patrick O’Brien novels You should read this because it's the lowest fantasy we've ever read period full stop

We don't even get any of those vampire super soldiers in this one. The nail you hit there with Bernard Cornwell Like if you read Bernard Cornwell and you read his sacks and stories this may just be the best step from historical Fiction into low fantasy you could ever take No doubt in some ways it's more Bernard Cornwell than Bernard Cornwell stories like Bernard Cornwell loves talking about you know

A flanking manoeuvre and a shield wall, but like you can actually see the lines on the battlefield in this one Anyway We recommend, so back to Beck Beck later to be known as red Beck. Hell. Yeah, I talked about emotional gut punch. So gut I talked about emotional gut punches earlier Geordie. I think this is one of the first Really good ones in the book

The first absolute moments of oh my god. I can't believe she went there joe Yeah, how could you I when this when this moment happened in the book? I was so shocked, but I immediately texted Duncan and I genuinely think Of all the books we've done so far. Nothing has actually made me go like this That is high praise indeed Geordie. Tell our readers… readers? Listeners! This is some podcast audio thing What happened?

So Beck is in his first battle And all of the his comrades downstairs who are like teenagers and children by the way

Of being held up in a house then held up in a house. They're being murdered by union soldiers Beck Cannot bring himself to intervene He can't bring himself to go down and join the fight even though he's the biggest even though he's the strongest He just stays upstairs And then as he hears the fight come to an end he gets up and he hides in a closet And then whilst he's hiding in this closet he hears the patting of feet as a soldier comes up from downstairs

And he sees through the crack a union sword and finally as he's mustering the you know The fear that he needs to live so he can finally do the first action of the war he bursts Action of the war he bursts out of the closet and he runs the guy through with his sword And it's not a union soldier It's one of his comrades the only one who was able to actually like stand his ground and win and kill four union soldiers like an actual Bonafide hero gets run through by his own side

And that character is the only person that Beck ever kills This is heart-wrenching on so many levels Like you've got Beck's own sense of guilt. You've got the sort of injustice of the character. He kills. I believe his name is wreck refed refed The fact that this guy Should be the hero. He just made himself a legend He was the young kid who took on you know outnumbered four to one And then what I love about going after this scene is then Beck can't bring himself to tell people what happened

And just ends up he doesn't like take the glory. He just lets them pile it on him And he's so ashamed like they give him a cool name red like red Beck, which is a sick name Um because of all the blood he was covered in when they found him, which is his you know his pals blood and He never uses the name Red Beck, like he can't bring himself to people ask his name and he says it's Beck I’m Beck and For the rest of the story. He stays in a like

Numb state where he just lets people do whatever they want. He's piled into a fight at the end But there are like a couple of things that Really set him apart from the rest of the bit because what you're waiting for after this is you're going to see okay? How does

Joe Abercrombie handle this character? He's been traumatized by war At the moment where you expect he's finally gonna come into his own You know I talked to you a couple of weeks back that I was reading Red storm rising by Tom Clancy and there's this bit where this like Dweeby weather guy for the air force like gets a knife and kills four Russian soldiers

Um like in front of the marines and impresses them and that doesn't happen in this book. It's not that kind of book Beck is forced back into future battles But the only person he ever kills is Uh the only person he ever kills is his friend Even though he actually plays like a really pivotal moment In what is probably like world history by his actions in a fight He can never say

Yeah, I was a real hero. I was like a true warrior Completely and I think it's really nice how his arc gets finished In that he basically learns his lesson and he goes home at the end Yeah, and he's the only person he does I also think this is a really nice cruel irony because he went like he left home because he wanted to prove himself a man He wanted to like grow up

And when he comes back, you're just like yeah, you did grow up. You lost all that childhood innocence More than bad I’d say the reason why he's like grown up is that you're right He's learned his lesson and it's not that war has made him into a man Which is a disgusting idea that persists even into the modern day It's the fact that he sees things however, you know He realizes that like living on the farm with his mom and his little brothers like it's a good way to live

You know, it's like that's like You know, that's just as much a man's role and it's a sane man's role It's the opposite of like what you learn at the start of Best Served Cold when Monza her father's farm has burnt down She says it's so much easier just to steal from other people And for Beck it's not easier He's given his reward money at the end and it's a lot of money and he says I can't take that And he refuses it and no one else can understand why

I think that's also really nice just to shine a light back on that previous character of Monza Because that was a character who killed so easily and made a point of oh, it's so easy just to Physically to slit this man's throat

Very dark. I know and so it's nice to have a character that has humanity It wouldn't be defined as a sociopath by modern definition So, yeah, that's nice to see it is nice and rare and a Joe Abercrombie story however, we have spent a lot of time talking about Beck the Person who has like the second least amount of like page count in terms of you know uh taking up the thing in a book, so I think let's speak about

The next one a little bit faster very well. Let's jump back over to The Union side and talk quickly about Finree Yeah, so Finree is the sole female perspective in the story Everyone else is either a man or a little boy And so but Finree actually provides a really great different view of the battle because she's the one person Who never gets involved in a battle of any kind or even like a marching manoeuvre of any kind?

Because she's the one person who never gets involved in a battle of any kind or even like a She's supposed to have the political lens from The Union side marching manoeuvre of any kind She's the one who can see a larger picture. She understands why characters doing what they're doing She's supposed to have the political lens from The Union side She's the daughter of the lord marshal

She's the one who can see a larger picture. She understands why characters doing what they're doing She's the daughter of the Lord Marshal So she's out of battlefield because her father's there and he's overseeing the whole campaign And because her husband is an officer. I can't remember what his exact rank is It'll be at the front of the book. There's a huge glossary of characters at the front of the book And I haven't needed a glossary this bad since I read the Silmarillion.

It's safe to say whatever his rank is, it's not high enough Right, Finree is extreme. She's described as being venomously ambitious The whole reason she's come here is not to win the battle It's to make sure that her husband does all the right things to get himself promoted

I think this is a really fun character. It's a really fun and other element to war and conflict The fact that you're looking at these organizations and they are organizations and there are ranks and there are promotions and there are pay rises There's a sense of almost corporateness to the other side so That's kind of really fun to see the fact that she kind of I don't say disdain but Almost like disinterest on what's going on over there Over on the other side of that field

Is really cool. That's right. Just like Beck her arc is to change her perspective on war She's using it as a tool for political gain and personal ambition By the end of the book she comes to learn the cost of war and it's not by like killing a friend actually no It's about vicariously feeling the suffering of others her husband is wounded um her Not exactly a friend but like the only companion she has is taken as captive by the enemy

And we never find out what happens to her. It's left to both ours and Finree's like dread imagination And then at the end she like starts caring for the wounded and it's full of these vicious hideous wounds And she has a great confrontation with Gorst at the end, but I’d like to hit that quite a bit later actually So let's now jump once again to the other side. Do you know how we're going back and forth?

Uh to each side of the battlefield not only is that a great thing with the POV's in the book as we kind of rotate around There is actually and now we've got to the midpoint the POV characters. I’m going to talk about this chapter It's not quite the midpoint the book made the first third but gosh Geordie. This is the best written chapter

I loved it. I thought the idea was great So much fun to first read it chapter's called casualty Go ahead Duncan This is chapter and this chapter marks like I said about a third away from the novel the actual start of like the main conflict This is when the armies are finally going to clash And it takes a while to have happen. It does take a while the build-up is really important But here it is. It kicks off and we follow a new POV and I’m like, oh Oh, hello

Who are you? That's nice. Oh, you've got your ideas of war you oh you got a ring with your um

Betrothed’s picture on it. How lovely oh how things doing I love that because it's like an An old-fashioned version of like the locket a world war two soldier has his round his neck 10 minutes before he dies And five minutes later in this book this character dies and I was like, oh my god Wasn't expecting that what cool way to kind of kick this off I love the fact that we get so much of this character by when just a few paragraphs

He's like, oh, I wish I spent more on my sword and not my foppish hat. Oh, no, we've been flanked And what do I do? You know you get all of his thoughts and experiences what he thought It's going to be like war or how it's the reality of it. His troops are abandoning him It's actually paying he gets cut down and then there's a little break in the page And we jump to a northerner who goes and then I hit that foppish idiot again on the head and we get his perspective and we

Do the same again. We get a little bit of his life and they're about to storm and so it goes And it throughout this chapter swapping back and forth as characters kill each other Their murderer becomes the new perspective character

Loved it. I loved it because you what I wasn't expecting this And each time I think they even get shorter the sections yet And you obviously realize what the pattern is But he still Joe, I can't be crammed so much into who this person is and you're like, oh you're gonna die Yeah, and a great part of this is that you start to recognize characters like You're in the Clamour of battle and like you meet someone called rose and that person dies and they're killed by someone you don't know

But then you're like, oh shit. I do know this guy This is like this is Craw's friend and now Craw's pal is hacking people down and charging through the battlefield And like wait a second, but I know how this chapter's going Oh, no Craw's friend's gonna die and he does and the great thing about this is that this keeps going until you get like and What's really great about this section is that not only do you jump between characters?

It actually carries over multiple battlefields as people are routed and as they run away It moves from like the top of The Heroes to like the river and a whole new battlefield starts And that means that Gorst, one of the main characters like he's in the inner blurb. That's how main of a character he is He becomes the perspective character and you're like, oh my god, is he going to die?

like he hasn't been properly tested in battle yet and And then that makes it a really tense scene because normally I wouldn't believe that a main character in this particular battle is in danger But the whole gimmick of this scene is about the fragility of life So even though he's fighting real hard and he's killing a lot of people when like Golden Glama or whatever he's called shows up

You're like, oh shit. That's a named man. He might really be in trouble now now spoilers Gorst doesn't die in this scene He is the final one when finally the two sides decide to separate for the day's fighting And what I love the way this chapter ends. I think it's so fantastic Because I think it could so end with like, you know a real focus on the fragility or the horror

I just love that it ends on Gorst as like the two sides pull apart basically going. Oh god. Damn it Oh, I was just getting into that I was getting a proper kill streak. I was about to get an attack helicopter And I think that's just a wonderful bit of kind of dark humour. Joe Abercrombie would just kind of send slinging in there That just makes the whole chapter It is like intense and there's a lot of motion, but he does just keep it. It sounds weird to say entertaining

Reading a book about war. I am still looking to be entertained I think he just lightens it slightly at the end to go. Okay I can still have a little bit more fun with more of the actiony bits of this and I thought let's I want to I’m gonna hone in one what you said about the book being entertaining right at the end I think that should be the last thing we talk about in this book um before we go to

You know what we're reading next time or whatever. So because This is an This is an anti-war book Like it's about the fragility and the horror of war and I think one thing we should talk about at the end is that even possible? But before we get long before we get there and before we move on to another character We keep talking about Gorst or whatever. I want to raise a criticism of this chapter Criticism I thought this is pretty top tier. What what's your issue mate?

Well, my issue was only like 40 with this chapter and 60 with you Duncan Nicoll. Oh, no, what did I do?

When you were reading this book last year or whatever You told me that the entire book was like this You said that the book was every time a character died It swapped to their killer and my impression was it was about this whole chapter Like as an entire book like the entire battle was about swapping sides Not because you had perspective characters and different sides of battle because people kept dying and being replaced And I was really interested to see how someone would write that book

Well, maybe I’m prone slightly to a grand eyes ideas Wouldn't that be a cool book though? Geordi you can go and write that it would Maybe it sounds hard That's why I was really intrigued. I’m like Joe Abercrombie is a great writer from what I’ve seen That sounds really difficult though. You need to get invested in these characters pretty fast Oh gosh what I don't even remember this conversation Geordi, but clearly If that was your expectation for the whole book that must have been shattering

I was really confused at the start. I’m like man, it's swapping characters a lot. Maybe it won't kick in until later But it never did. I mean it did but it did it for two chapters It went for this chapter and for one other chapter

Where it wasn't like people killing each other over and over and over again. It just so happened that like A new character is introduced as a perspective character and then they're killed and their killer became the perspective character But that character then wasn't immediately killed

It's a cool idea. I never when I was actually having this conversation with someone Apparently like they're like, oh, yeah, they did that in Call of Duty and I’m like, please let's not let's not debate They did yes the world war one game You were playing the British versus the Germans and whenever you were killed as a brit you swapped over and you joined the German side but it's like Literally one mission in like an otherwise completely normal Call of Duty game where it's like, okay

Now just get back to killing the bad guys. So talking about killing the bad guys Gorst We've mentioned him several times He likes killing people Yeah This dude is a pretty big departure from every other character in the book because he has pretty much no redeeming qualities And yet he's sort of the most traditionally heroic character in this entire book He's the strong fighter, you know, he's the guy he only

There's a bit in his introduction where he's like, I don't wear all that hefty armour. I just take the bare minimum I need One glove tanned one sword I’m looking after my parents dachshund and she's just woken up so she may start barking Tilly has a little ramp to get on the sofa. It's adorable, right?

Actually the ramp broke because my dad steps in it. So um now she has to be picked up all the time So yeah, this is very this is much more traditional in fact I think it's good that all the characters are there though because then we can actually really see Gorst in his true light Which is particularly coming off Beck absolute sociopath No problem with killing people In fact, he's more comfortable murdering people than he is like speaking up in a conversation

Yes, it's like if john wick had social anxiety not gonna lie. I actually really liked how these bits were written as As someone with like with autism the level of social anxiety he has when he's like trying to talk up in like a planning meeting

I’m like, ah, I feel you Gorst. I’m there with you buddy I love the fact what's interesting about Gorst is that so much of what he does Physically is supposed to be impressive and cool and it is you know He's fighting at like a horde of barbarians and he gets you know, like says like I killed 15 men today And I could have done more but everyone else gave up

But in every other way he's not physically appealing. He's ugly you know, he's described in such a way that like he's clearly like physically repellent and Most interesting of all he has like a very high pitched voice. It's described as a falsetto and he's embarrassed about this it's such a mix of feeling bad for him and Also sometimes sort of joining in the disdain Gorst has a lot of self-pity

You know, he's sort of very much aware. He self describes himself a lot as not being very attractive having an embarrassing high-pitched voice He a lot of his sections are focused on the fact that he's been put here at this part of the war as effectively punishment He used to be the king's bodyguard But he fucked up Not for the his fault and now he's sent here to basically write letters home to his majesty About how great the war's going on. Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention that but you're right

He's there as the king's observer. He's not even supposed to fight which is interesting because you know He's the person who kills the most in the whole book, but he's not even ordered to do it He's just doing it because he wants to and there's a great amount of humour in the extremely eloquent and Positive way in which he writes the letters to the king and then a absolutely hideous Absolutely hideous slap of reality as it cuts to his narration and it's like the rain was dismal

It turned all of the roads to slime Things Crawl along at a pitiful pace we spoke in Best Served Cold that a great thing that joe apricot me does is Have the characters Think something and then immediately say something in complete contradiction and Gorst exemplifies this His internal monologue and what he has says to the other characters never matches up

Particularly talking to like the superior generals. He'll always be respectful and then his brain would just be like you absolute foppish twit Yeah, it's venomous and it's hateful And when it comes to Finree in particular the one like woman perspective in the book Before we even figure out she's going to be like a perspective character And the inside he's full of like loathsome attraction to her like he's he's he's he's deeply infatuated with her in like a really ugly hideous way and

You know you're often um, and the great thing about this is that you know It's you can be like, oh this is horrible, but you never have the impression that like he's gonna do anything bad But mostly because he's just like a pitiful coward and he can't say anything

And one time he like does at the end of the book. It's just embarrassing And it just takes away everything about him that you could ever possibly respect I think this is great talking on the tropes of sort of the warrior hero Because it's like saying what happens when you take this sort of I I’m just thinking comparing to like Druss the Legend And what makes a character like Druss truly in, uh, David Gemmel's legend And related stress Drunai book series

Why since I’ve read like we don't love him because he's a great fighter Like that's often quite I think confused. It's similar. I would say a bit with uh, like a Conan character. I’ve always got to reference Conan You don't have to read and really enjoy them because they're this incredible fighter You might just enjoy the descriptions of the fight scenes

But it's not that they're a great fight that makes them enjoyable. It's that quite often they're quite charismatic Yeah, it's the confidence and it's the bravura And the fact that they carry that then into lots of aspects of their life It's the fact that when Druss is like He's not that Druss is confident. He's going to be able to kill a lot of people It's the fact that he stands on the battlements and says don't worry lads We'll take this fight because it's the good fight that needs fighting

You're like, yeah, mate. I'll follow you The Gorst lacks so much confidence that he believes that other characters are contemptuous of him They dislike him. They find him ugly None of these characters ever say this No one ever makes fun of him for having a high-pitched voice even his enemies like who are the most macho man group ever who are like oozing testosterone every time they like every time they draw breath None of them make fun of him for having a high-pitched voice or being ugly

And Black Dow says hey, you're such a good fighter and killer. You should join our side And it's like yeah, he would fit in so well over there But he just gets in his own way all the time because he's so Simpering and pathetic and I know that one sounds like now we're being mean to the character Which he deserves

Yes, I think that's a very good lie to mark. He is not nice to people. There's a bit at the end He goes looking for Finree's husband And because he's hoping that he turns up dead and when he's the one to find him

He like is immediately start strangling him to death until he's caught in which he just checks to pretend. He's checking his pulse Yeah, he's loathsome and pathetic, but there's also this really interesting part of that very scene, which is after he walks away Dejected like he hears someone calling for help and he picks up like the log

That's crushing this guy with his prodigious strength and he rescues this guy. The guy's like, oh bless you. You good man And he feels nothing because he doesn't care and he's being heroic in so many ways But he's so despicable on the inside, but it just doesn't matter He's incapable of actually being like good or true Another fun thing just while we're still on Gorst is that Gorst has a great relationship with the character of Caul Shivers

Because Gorst is one of those a great example. She's talked in Best Served Cold the character of the cripple Who's a very it's a completely minor background character in that book, but he's one of the main POVs in the original trilogy and Gorst is Is one of the minor background characters in Best Served Cold?

And you're waiting for the moment where he and Caul Shivers are going to run into each other because If you read Best Served Cold, you're like, oh, oh, this is that guy He's going to knock down the stairs and like got like humiliated and he's the fall guy for call and Monza's plan And you're like are they going to run into each other? And if he does is he going to recognize him and they do run into each other?

And he does start to recognize him and he specifically starts to recognize him at a point where they're at like a peace treaty So it's like this could literally reignite the war If he can't keep it together and when he like goes up and he grabs him and he shoves over and outside the way He's like have you ever been to stereo? There's this great moment because call is a guy who could absolutely knowing that peace is on the line could say Oh, yeah, it was you

Fuck you and then completely start the war. So there's a serious move to tension before call goes Nah, never been there and that's the end of it And Gorst just gets shrugged off and shoved to the side and people even forget that he said a word It is a great anticlimactic ending for this character. I think it suits that kind of pathetic undertone just perfectly but

Let's leave Gorst. Let's leave The Union for a bit and let's spend some more time on the other side with the Northmen Because there are two other key northern POV's that we have let's touch on the maybe lesser one first And then we'll go for the guy who really brings us to the end game So the lesser one is the actual first character we ever kind of talk to in this book

Now I’m a little bit off on pronunciations. This Curnden Crow… Crow… Craw… Craw Because you've got something in your Craw as I do Very regularly. Yes, whenever you try to say a difficult fancy name Craw is in many respects the exact opposite end of the spectrum to Beck He is the very old soldier. He's one of those heroes that people tell stories about he's a named man Which basically means you have a cool nickname

Which you've earned I would disagree wholeheartedly. Uh, he's not like the opposite of Beck He's like the path the path more chosen He's what Beck could end up being because the important thing to know about Craw Even though he is like a great fighter and he's a good leader and he's seen it all and he's like He knows he has the good connections to other war chiefs Uh, he's terrified of fighting Like he's completely terrified of it and he's never gotten over his fear of being in battle

And he's in the first battle of the book even before the armies arrive. He's in the first skirmish

So is it more the same? So it's not the opposite end as in a different character. He's just Beck at the opposite end of life Is exactly like it could get back comes to a point where he could choose What sort of man am I gonna be and he could choose to try and be like his father and therefore end up being Craw Someone who's been in a ton of battles and has a lot of experience but is still terrified of fighting because he'll never get over it

Or he could take the path that he ends up choosing and being you know, a good man because Craw is always saying We have to do the right thing. You have to do the right thing. That's his big belief He's basically saying, you know, like he's lawful neutral. He's like we have to follow the code. We have to follow the rules Even when it's not the good thing to do It's the right thing

Beck chooses to do the good thing. He breaks like the code the rules. This very much plays into the fact that Craw is Fundamentally, I think a bit of a coward because the reason why it's like we should follow the code is because he doesn't ever want to take a step For what he believes in really against anyone else Now that's yeah, I think there's definitely some truth about Duncan I like the way you phrased that to tie in his cowardice to his like willingness to follow the rules

It's not the what I took away from the book, but I do like that approach Well, I just I say that because I also think it ties into his ending and I know we're jumping head over heels to get there But Craw's ending is that he keeps saying throughout this book I’m old and I feel it in my bones and my knees aren't what they used to be But at the end of the book he has a similar situation with to Beck with the fact that he could retire

He could take his pot of gold and maybe he could go farming or whatever, but he doesn't he stays in the life exactly and specifically for Yeah throughout this book he's like the tropey character of the book He's like the tropey character of oh I’m just one day away from retirement He's sending out these huge death flags being like I could just get out of the game And so you're expecting him to be the guy who dies in the climax

And there's a really pivotal moment where it looks like yeah, he's dead when like Basically, the best fighter the northerners have is killed in a fight with Gorst Not by Gorst because that would be too satisfying but just by a random Happenstance where a spear just so happened to stick him because the idiot didn't wear any armour because he thought he was going to be He was destined to live forever Gorst turns his attention to Craw because he's defending Iron Dow sorry Black Dow and Who

Interfere? Who saves the day right before he's cut down one day away from retirement? It's Beck Good old Beck I was genuinely thinking if Beck dies for this man I will not be happy but but but just to think like I I really like the fact he didn't because in addition to the uh, the fantasy people have of like, you know being made whole of growing up of maturing through battle

There's also an obsession with dying. Well, it's all tied up in the fantasy of warfare I’m using fantasy with a lowercase f there, but it is still important to this book with the capital f If Beck died to redeem himself that would be just as toxic as if he became like a good person And a better man by learning how to kill people and Beck doesn't do either He doesn't die for Craw and isn't even kill for him He gets one lucky hit where he flaps Gorst with the with the flash of his blade

He knocks him stone cold and he gets blood on the sword But that's it. He doesn't draw blood. It's the only Swing he makes that entire fight that entire climactic battle which decides the end of the war So he going back to Craw like I’m really glad he's there. He gives a great perspective He ties into a lot of other characters, but he still he's not the main guy There's just one more bloke. Is he in the First Law books? cool Yeah I yes he is in the original

Uh trilogy and I’ll be honest. I think he's very much the same kind of bloke there I'll retire soon. Just you I’m nearly out guys But yes Duncan before I like dragged you back to the battle you talked about the end of his story Um and about how fact he does retire it defies our expectations More than once because he does give up the game Yes, he does give it up kinder not quite

I really enjoy the fact that how likely he seems to fall back into it. Do you Remember the exact scene where he's just like Oh, okay Oh, yeah for sure

Uh, so this is a scene again another scene I saw coming from a mile away, but it's brilliant. I loved it so much He's retired to do as he's always said he's gonna do he's become a carpenter He's moved to a little village where they've taken him in because it's good to have a named man around and He sucks at being a carpenter Like and of course he has he was like he was a carpenter for like two minutes when he was a boy And now it's I don't 50 years later

And he wants to try and take it up again, and he thinks he's gonna be just as good at it as he is at fighting And he answers no he sucks at it and then Who should show up at his door but a character called Hard Bread and Hard Bread?

Is the character who he first runs into right at the start One of the few northmen who works for The Union and he's the first person who has a who has any kind of fight in the book it's between craw's dozen and And Hard Bread's dozen, but he shows up at his door his former enemy who's always been very friendly with and he says so um The war's over Uh, but another one's starting and would you like to come with us and join it? And he says no no no no no

I’ve retired. This is what I’ve always wanted and heartbreak goes. Okay, but We kind of really want you to be there, but okay, if not, that's fine and he walks away And it's not even a full page later of him looking around His own little hut which he's built himself and a promise of the future that he's always wanted When he grabs his cloak and his sword and he runs out the door saying Hard Bread Wait for me. I always want I love to know because I haven't seen this character

I haven't read more books kind of going forward. What does Craw get like, it's like he's chasing that heroic death Or he's just terrified to Be normal and have To put up with like the actual basic things I mean, that's close to it, but I really think the fact of the matter is that he just doesn't know how to change He spent his whole life doing one thing And now he wants to try and be something else and it's impossible

He's caught in a pattern of behaviour that he doesn't know how to break just like that character I’ve never read anything about the Bloody Nine

He's stuck. He only knows how to be one thing and like it or not scared as he is He's hooked on it I think the only thing that upsets me is the idea that if Craw ends up just ruining other people's lives At least he doesn't seem to be pulling other Like young men like if Beck died, I’ll be like, I hate you Craw I know you you didn't necessarily do that or be responsible, but I will hate you for it so if he just goes I mean, he's gonna kill people that's kind of the job, but

Just doesn't hurt too many nice characters in the way fine Have your soldier's life I I Don't know enough about these books in general to make any kind of prediction I guess I’d be surprised if I saw Craw in a future book You know I don't know anything about Red Country. Really? I don't know how much it crosses over with the rest I know that I want to read it and I want to read a bad because apparently it has like the best duel ever and like

The Best Served Cold has the best duel ever in it. So That's really hard to imagine a better one than the ones we saw in that but hey ho, I guess it's in there So yeah, I can't imagine he could show up again. Right? I think he has to just vanish He went back to war and eventually it will kill him. I genuinely can't imagine That's the end of his story. I can't see him having a Caul Shivers style

He'll turn around later because he had the arc. He had the arc and then we've got a lovely twist on it And his arc is that he can't change so he can't Change subsequently. That's the whole point of his character

Talking about characters that can't change though. Geordie the final POV And the one that I think is really is one the best to sort of mark the actual I don't know world movements the progression of The overall story of First Law and that is the story of Prince Calder Now… Long live Black Calder!

A little background Prince Calder. He is in the first trilogy. He is the younger son of the old king of the north a guy called Bethod who Sadly tragically passed away in a terrible accident involving a circle the Bloody Nine and some axes Following that Black Dow became king because Black Dow Also had a sword and an axe to hand at the time And Prince Calder and his older brother scale Just to drop his he exists as well

I’ve been kept alive and around mostly because there's enough people who like him For him not to be dead yet Just about just about just about called as an interesting character and his parts of the story are probably the most intricate and precise and Probably the closest a book has to a main character I'd agree

I agree. I think that's why him and Craw I'd say are the main guys I don't think it's an unfair amount of page time for being that But his narrative I'd say is certainly I’m going to say the most complex And the most driven not by his own personal character arc, but by the events Yes, he's got his fingers in so many pies and he cares a lot about like and he's smart enough to know What's going on in different camps and what different people want what they're trying to achieve

That he gets to have a lot of time spent thinking much like tunny Oh, you know what? We never actually said in the spoiler freeze the spoilerish section What happened with tunny and what my great prediction was and my great prediction was that tunny would never see battle and he doesn't He spent four days standing in the edge of a swamp watching cold aside And doesn't do anything But I love about that is the fact that he stands there watching not doing anything is actually super important

It's like a world changing event them standing there because sometimes that's literally all you need in warfare It's just to put soldiers in the right place Obviously betrayed beautifully for the maps of the book But what you're alluding to is they're in this sort of position where the other side know That if they kind of charge or make a certain push They'll expose their flank so they can't so they're stuck And they're so stuck that that um

Calder has to just sit there and wait as his brother's side is massacred like completely overwhelmed

And his brother is cut down and he can't do anything. He has to call for help from an ally an ally Read a man who hates him and wants him dead Most of the characters in Calder's story So just to give a little bit more effect of where his because I actually feel like I need to explain this one more Calder starts this story in bed with a beautiful wife who I believe he married before his dad died So he did very well in this marriage because he got married to make some airs

He was a promising match and then he fell from grace, but he already had the beautiful and powerful wife And Calder just wants to sit here drinking water And Calder just wants to sit here drink wine and have sex with his beautiful wife But he is summoned to the battlefield by Black Dow The strangest thing about this the truly strangest thing about this is that this appears to be the first happily married couple In in either of the Joe Abercrombie books I’ve read so far

I think you're probably I’m just I’m just looking for my mind Yes Maybe one other but you wouldn't have met them. They're in the First Law trilogy

But yeah, like Calder has something to lose and much like a lot of the other people in this book. He's not a fighter But people want him to be one there's a lot of expectations on his shoulder to be like his father To be like his brother to be like all the other men in the north and be like a true warrior People keep saying sometimes you have to fight And it's so nice to see a character who just really wants to prove them all wrong And has unlike a character like Beck he has a level of agency

He's high enough up that pecking order to try and bring that about yeah And what Calder really wants besides to stay alive and go back to his beautiful wife is um For Black Dow not to kill him And for Black Dow to be dead so he can be king Simple, easy, easy peasy. He has the right

But not the power not enough people like him. Well people like him, but they don't respect him You know, he doesn't have the bones as they say in the north And what we kind of get is a lot of this kind of Slight political movements around the battlefield He's trying to look for opportunities To obviously advance himself

And to hopefully see Black Dow day and I love that. I think there's a little bit where he's kind of just hoping He's like maybe someone else is just gonna kill him There's a battle going on fingers crossed guys What I like, but what kind of drive his spot?

What I like about Calder's story is that much like with someone like Beck you're feeling the push and pull of traditional narrative And you're waiting for him in Slightly crass terms to nut up You know, he's saying I don't want to fight I want to do anything I can to avoid fighting and you're waiting to you're being like yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah grow up get out your sword and start killing people

Because that's what you expect from a traditional fantasy story. You expect the wimp to draw his sword, you know the this Freudian penis symbol like get your manhood out and start swinging it around and displays of your expectations a lot because at a certain point He does fight But he doesn't draw his own sword himself. He just comes up with a good plan And that feels great because you finally get into a position where people can start to respect him and like follow his leadership

He like yes, he's stepping forward now. Just start killing people. Come on and then he doesn't Even when he's like being attacked head-on by the enemy after his great like military victory He has to rely on like his adversaries to help him out. He's calling out for help! Help! Help!

But I think that's so kind of great about him is he kind of represents I’m probably like the good king That's not the case But the sort of bit of the military side of things they're like, well, yeah Actually, the leader should be good at the strategy and the tactics element He's sort of why was it matter if he's actually good at drawing his sword and getting in the fray?

Yeah, this is a weird thing. I forget which one it is. It's like maybe the second Song of Ice and Fire books where Tyrion is obviously really smart And he's a good leader and he can't the only reason he can't be king is that one Yeah, he doesn't have the birthright but two like people won't accept him because he's a dwarf and they won't Listen to him as a proper authority But when the battle comes to king's landing, he still gets an axe and he like fights and kills people

And that feels weird because one it doesn't feel like something he'd actually be able to do and two

It doesn't really suit his character. Like that's not what he's about. He's not a fighter. He's a thinker Having main characters show a lot of cowardice Cowardice is actually really quite unique and I found it very refreshing in both Calder and Beck The other time so props there, Joe Yes, absolutely love Calder's character again long live Black Calder And the reason why I’m calling him Black Calder is He gets in the fighting circle with Black Dow

Through a few shenanigans. He's basically accused of attempting to portray Black Dow. She did. He's like I’m not actually as guilty as you think but I am a little Here I am And let's have a moment to talk about Black Dow because he is an important character

Okay, he's not a POV, but you're right. He is a huge influence on the story In fact, he's sort of reason this narrative is happening the fact that I say he is that's actually very apologetic to colonial powers Sorry, the local kings didn't just roll over How bad of them, but he won't sit down at the table So he's gonna fight Black Dow

It's a bit hard. I’m quite coloured because I read First Law so I saw him in the book So I actually think Geordie if you tell me your impression and then maybe I’ll give you a little bit of background

And we'll see how that kind of marries up. Sure Black Dow is a character who's outwardly Literally sort of hyping up everything about himself to be like the uber masculine Northern warrior king so like he swears and he swaggers and like he's good at fighting And like he commands respect through fear

But actually deep down like you can tell this guy's crafty. He's smart. He's savvy and he's actually merciful like really merciful Like he doesn't kill Calder even though he is a political threat because basically he likes him and he doesn't see him as Like he doesn't want to kill him and he releases hostages who he doesn't have to release And like he wants to sue for peace

But he can't do it without seeming weak to the other northern lords and so he has to be really careful about how he explores that So yeah, that's my impression. He's basically brutal and scary But a good serviceable king for the north And the only way he's a weak king is where he feels restrained by the population's expectations So how is he in the first trilogy? first trilogy Black Down is essentially just kind of one of the side characters to

I’m going to say Logen Nine Fingers gang which includes another character you meet in this book the dogman. Yeah, I figured because he talks about being like Like the friend of Logen of the black the blade nine He says like hey, did you get know that the dogman's coming and he's bringing a Bloody Nine

Exactly. They're all kind of part of a gang And but the thing is but I thought it's such like One of the more side characters he's slightly I would describe as the strategist just barely and his Honestly, the only real impact he has is that in the last trilogy the Bloody Nine does kill Bethod And it's like I’m going to be king of the north But first I’m going to do the right thing and go to the south union lands

To deal with the actual big bad guy of this book trilogy. Um Black Dow do you mind just like you know being the steward while I’m away Cheers, mate And so there's a scene near the very end of the book where the Bloody Nine comes back

And it's one the clothes. It's the final scene. We see the Bloody Nine in the trilogy And he comes back thinking Oh, I’m coming back to my kingdom And he walks in and Black Dow is effectively on the throne and it's like actually Mate, um, I had some chats with people while you were away And we actually don't want you to be the king I know you killed the last one. That's how it tends to work. But this narrative works better for everyone And that's like literally and then that scene closes

Really? So you don't see for sure whether he kills the Bloody Nine? You do not know for sure if the Bloody Nine dies Your phrasing is very interesting I’m I’m disappointed by the fact that you told me The Blade Itself is um, not as good as the rest Uh, you have told me before that the opinion is basically that every book gets a little bit better So I sort of feel a little bit spoiled by the fact that I’ve like you know I’ve watched I’ve read like the best parts of the series so far

And now I’m gonna have to go back to square one to sort of get to figure out who the fuck Logen Nine Fingers actually is The thing is I said that mostly because And I would say this to all listeners If you're the type of person who's in for a penny in for a pound And you know that if you read the first book in the trilogy like you know, you'll read the whole trilogy you'll do it Then I think there's no problem tying The Blade Itself

Due to the nature I’m not gonna like with the format of this uh lovely show we do Where a book's got to be pretty bayan To make sure that we keep reading in a series I wanted to hit off with a bit more of a home run And I also wanted to test whether or not the Best Served Cold was a good standalone So if you're a listener and you don't know if you're going to you know commit to a trilogy kind of regardless I still recommend Best Served Cold as a perfect starting point but The First Law trilogy

I would probably rank above The standalone experiences but just that very first book I personally feel although it has amazing character work Is a bit slow Interesting there's a lot of time setting up the board Subsequent books are amazing. I in fact before they are hanged maybe No, I prefer Best Served Cold and The Heroes actually but a good book

It's the best of the trilogy. They're all good. Come on. The bar's high, but they are not as good as these two standalone. I'll admit Okay We had a bit of a digression there

Calder gets into the circle with Black Dow. He's He can't win like it's just it's ridiculous you as a reader like well you know anything could happen like he could slip in the mud and fall on his sword and That doesn't happen like Calder does live but it's not as like fairy tale Or ironic enough to be like oh and by some mere happenstance of fate he wins Black Dow just so happens to insult Caul Shivers So that's actually wouldn't actually be out of the way for Joe Abercrombie

Because in Best Served Cold there is actually a scene where a statue just falls Over and it's like got a sword on it and impales one the villains. Yeah, but they were gonna win that fight We can have a little bit of hilarious irony in here He just so happens To insult Caul Shivers a little too much and call just steps up behind him Cracks him in the head and kills him I think it's fantastic that Caul Shivers isn't a POV in this book Yeah, he kind of has the most pivotal moment

Yeah, and when you think about like the string of events that leads up to this which is essentially like a Groundbreaking historical moment The end of like a dynasty basically probably a pretty short-lived one, but nonetheless an important political faction and how this all ties back to like To all those back to what?

Monza is up to in the previous book and just so happen to fuck up One guy in particular and letting him live at the end so he can go out and just wreak havoc wherever he goes man And yeah from this point on Caul Shivers is like the third man in charge You know, he has cemented himself. He makes

Calder king. It's a little more complicated now, but we're not going to get into what Stranger Come Knocking because we haven't even introduced But there's some interesting politics happening behind the scene which ties this whole book together in like a really fascinating and depressing way We don't have time to get into it. It's good read the book. Come on, but yeah, Caul Shivers is the kingmaker

That just what dole is alluding to that interesting kind of political movement. That is the point And it's great, but it's almost not what makes it enjoyable So that's why I’m happy to leave that to the background. Yeah, we get this lovely moment And I kind of really enjoy this scene because there's kind of this moment where all the northmen are standing there And it's like they all just kind of well at least one guy definitely set for us is like, okay

It's Black Calder now because let's face it. That's the clearing this way forward where we don't start killing each other And everyone's like, yeah, let's just not have a it's the path of least resistance and it completely goes against all their principles and all the rules Because by all rights, this means Shivers should be in charge But Stranger Come Knocking has said Calder, and he does have a good claim

And yeah, it's this path of least resistance. It's the power doesn't flow from the crown or in this case like the shiny necklace It flows from the crown Like the people's willingness to be governed the powerful people who are underneath the king say Yeah, let's just pick this guy and immediately after this like the epilogue of the book is about a secession crisis where like Gold or an iron head or immediately butting heads again and that's led to another war which Calder needs to put down

And like they're referring to coldest king Even though something really interesting happens right after this which is like probably one of my favourite parts of the whole book I want to dive into that moment So something that you haven't talked about is Calder's brother Calder has an older brother called scale Who is everything that Calder isn't he's the traditional Sword wielding hero relatively speaking

Um for the man, I love the fact that scale loves his brother and it's actually I think one of the main things that keeps Calder quite likeable in this book Is that he clearly has quite a bit of brotherly love disagree he has someone he I think there's an extent of brotherly love between them but In his like, you know how we keep saying characters in these books say we're brothers

In his in a monologue. He keeps saying if only I could get rid of him, you know, he's standing in my way Once I’m rid of him, then I’ll be you know, then I’ll be able to do what I want

Well, yes, but he changes his mind sort of in the last moments. Well, I think you're getting Yes, I am getting to that but I want to really hone in the fact that I don't think he does change his mind And I think he does change his mind in the last moments I think you're getting yes, I am getting to that but I want to really hone in the fact that I don't think he does change his mind No, I and I felt the need I had to say bring up like his inner monologue about how

There's this element of friction where there isn't brotherly love because that's what Caul Shivers

The agent of chaos hones in on saying, you know your brother we thought he was dead. He's actually alive No one except you knows he's still alive I could kill him for you Then you became And no one will be able to argue otherwise And what happens next is that there's this huge period In his head where he's greeting his brother and he's Looking after him and he's in a state, you know, his brother is damaged and broken and he looks terrible He's missing a hand was chopped off by Gorst

And as he's walking him back You as a reader going don't do it. Don't kill your brother be a good person for once just for once change And then the most shocking thing happens not the most shocking thing that's still back But the second most shocking thing is that not only does he not tell?

Shivers to kill his brother He gives him the chain he makes his brother king instead of him All of this book is characters making not all the characters About half the characters making the wrong decisions or not changing And it's so nice for one of them. This is I think almost the moment which makes you think oh you're like the main character Because he does the one good deed And then the second one is the one who's saying I have to do the right thing and then chooses to go back to war

Calder does the right thing who's always done the wrong thing up to this point. It's always been craven and sneaky and treacherous He's the one who does the right thing now It's not 100 the right thing. I like said I said A little caveat there is definitely an element where Calder is going better. He be on the throne and me the power behind because He who wears the metaphorical crown? More likely to get his head taken off

That's definitely an element of it. Yes, it's true but nonetheless It's also brotherly love like after this he helped like he helps him into a saddle he starts to look after him the way that scale used to look after Calder when they were boys and This is just such a nice sweet ending for such a dark book Oh the warm and fuzzies and Everyone else who's alive Just gets to go home Gorst gets like returned to his previous position this whole time

He's been fighting and killing a bunch of people to like earn enough renown And then when the letter arrives that like says I want you back in your previous position

I forgive you for your trespasses. He realizes that it was sent before the battle had even begun which is Hysterical and he goes to Finree and he says like I’ve been returned to my position and she's like wow, that's great we've been promoted to be like lords and ladies like we've stratospherically risen above our previous station and And so he has to sort of he's grinning at me like oh great Everything that I was made me special is way less special than you

And this whole time he's like he says he's been in love with Finree He hasn't he's been like infatuated and obsessed with her but whatever And he finally reaches his breaking point where he expresses that he loves war He goes on this big rant about how great it is and about it it's the only place where people can respect him where he has power and She's sickened by him and she takes him to task and she points out all of the horrible suffering all around him

which she's born witness to and what she's finally come to understand how dreadful it is and it's so Satisfying to be like wow the one time you opened your mouth and you said what was really in your head And people can see what you really are. It's so satisfying It's the great bit of justice and in a story where like the overarching theme is a complete lack of

Universal comic justice. It's nice to see it play out on at least character levels Yeah, this isn't a book where the good get what they deserve and the bad Also get what they deserve That never happens period full stop No one leaves this book better than where they started it except I guess Calder, but he's also worse off in some ways There was a strong sense of dark chaotic fatalism to Best Served Cold where no matter what characters tried to do Nothing they ever tried to accomplish

Really came it really came to pass and there was an almost air of delightful fatalism Where you could throw up your hands and say what are you gonna do? This time? I had such higher expectations for the characters in this book I really felt like they were gonna change and gonna accomplish something and so that sense of dim dissatisfaction with the exception of like Craw's

Decision at the end to go running off. That's the same dark fatalism as Best Served Cold. That was familiar for the most part though You know like you're left feeling like man These characters have just been hurt and made worse in every way and nothing of any true consequence was accomplished in this story And that has to lead us on to our final topic of is this a good story about war? You know, is it a good? Anti-war story and is such a thing even possible? Oh god, okay

Going to the big guns. So is this a good story about war? See, I really don't know how to answer that. I can tell you this was a good story and I was entertained But was it a good anti-war story? I personally I felt reading and you know Context of the fantasy genre and there's a natural disconnect there I think it certainly did a good job of giving me almost another lens to look at other more traditional heroic fantasy tales I think it generally did I think now when I read other books

Particularly a good example is when we read legend. Maybe this did give me a little bit of a lens into those moments where You know, what was the conflict for? The other characters that were dying But to be honest, I’ve never wanted to go to war but I do enjoy reading a lot of literature which features it heavily so So what does that make me?

Yeah, and it makes sense so much of our language around what makes an adventure hinges around the idea of conflict and war You know, that's why Battles and guns are a feature of so many video games because it's a really direct form of conflict It's a space which people want to explore Call of Duty is a first-person shooter because people want to think what if I were a first-person shooter? People want to think what if I was under fire? Would I be able to handle myself?

And the answer we expect to get out of those stories is yes I would be able to handle myself and I would change and I'd become a better man And that would allow me to live out my power fantasy and the same exists for First for stories where the characters die at the end So in something like Legend where so many of the characters die in the name of what might be a hopeless cause that's heroic too

That's a power fantasy too. It's a fantasy. That's also about A grievance, you know, I I’m suffering so much my personal life and I can represent that in a way in which these characters are suffering for a righteous cause

All of those books all of those stories those games as well. They're all all pro-war stories because Any story which can make you think yeah Being a soldier would be great Even if it would suck Stories where people come home in coffins covered in American flags or union jacks Despite all evidence Those are pro-war stories, too There's a reason why when Saving Private Ryan came out a story which a lot of people consider to be anti-war like the actual department of defence was like

Commemorated it, you know, they gave it like honours. They said yes. This is a good movie about war Because it shows this enormous reverence to The people who went off to fight in a particular war arguably the only good war world war two And even though it's full of Like soldiers being cowards and dying pointlessly and suddenly Yeah, that's a pro-war movie, too People go to war because they see you Saving Private Ryan and they think yeah

That works for me people go to war because they see full metal jacket and for some reason they just don't get what they're doing They just don't get what it's about one of the things that I feel is really strong in those bits of media and something which I don't think you could do in a book format because ultimately it would be very unsatisfying as a piece of entertainment Which you know this literature is entertainment It's the idea the fact that when a character dies heroically in battle

We always see beyond it. We see the characters showing them reverence We see the fact that the victory was ultimately attained. We see that it was all for a good cause in the end imagine Watching that and then when a character saying private Ryan

When that one guy gets shot because he's trying to deliver a message. It just cut to black, but that's it he said That's who we were following Yeah, or whatever story where like nothing was gained like you die and you fight heroically for a cause and then you lose Like we don't see that often like Where not even like oh it was all a hopeless cause Where it's like well what really mattered was what the politicians were talking about behind the scene

Which is kind of what happens in this book like the land gets divvied up union gains more ground Anyway, even though they lost the war The question is this a good anti-war story?

And I think the answer is still no for all the reasons I’ve listed like even though it says war is terrifying It won't make you more of a man If you can draw any kind of excitement from that if it makes you want to swish us an imaginary sword in the air No, I don't think it succeeds as an anti-war story I really don't think you can make an anti-war story unless you genuinely ridicule the idea of war in of itself like a Dr. Strangelove or a JoJo Rabbit

That's the sort of thing. I think actually has to you have to make to make a properly anti-war story I think one thing that some of these What really could come home anti-war story is probably if you went hard on the angle that Killing isn't good I think that's really no I think

I think it's not enough. I mean, it's not enough to say like oh those are real people with genuine lies Like that's what the section where they people swap back and forth between You know between all that it doesn't matter Like it doesn't that doesn't matter people know that like oh those are real people on the other side It what matters is that people still respect the institution of war people still like uniforms and guns and swords

It's only when you have a story and I think you come close to with Beck where it's like choosing peace Choosing to like live a good life is actually more admirable than the weakness of choosing war But you could come close to telling like an actually anti-war story Well, I hope one day Geordie we might actually read a book that fully nails that as for The Heroes I would say I’m not gonna say I disagree with you Because there is definitely a bit of this book that is exciting particularly in the

the circle, you know when Cold is having his duel in the scenes when they're charging up the hill that I am just like oh isn't that thrilling?

Yes, of course and Duncan I want to make something clear just because this Book doesn't succeed in its goal of being an anti-war book in my opinion Doesn't mean it's a bad book or even that there's anything wrong with reading books that are pro-war Like I enjoyed reading red storm rising and I described that to my girlfriend as NATO poor Yeah, they're fun there's a reason people read these books they play these video games I play violent video games as well because they're sick

It's fine. Just don't be susceptible to propaganda like me who it's impossible to propagandize I on the other hand are very easy to propagandize and have fallen for all of it in my country I like to play the war games where you the strategy was the RTS. I love directing my soldiers just such fun Get those carefully charges, right? Duncan, that's all I’ve got to say I love the love this book. It was great

People should read it even if you typically don't like fantasy. It is dark and it is gritty and it is gory But not as gory as the previous book probably more accessible to be honest safe from all the Historical politics read Best Served Cold because it slaps, read this one next because it also slaps And once you've read both those books Why don't you read Red Country?

Next book in this sort of standalone midquel trilogy thing people say it's really good But it's not up to me when we read that one No, it's not it feels really good to not have The Heroes lurking behind me anymore because I wanted to read it as soon as you finish Best Served Cold And I didn't want to jump in and do an entire series again to only then do another entire series And then although I didn't know it was going to happen do an entire series of Star Wars books

That would have been like nine of the how many books do we do a year 24? 21 That doesn't make sense. How do we only do 21 books a year? There's 52 books a year and we do a podcast episode every two weeks. We do that's 12 months That's 24 books No, but there's 52 books a year No, but there's 52 weeks. Okay. I’m scared don't get what are we reading next time? There's 26 books. I can't do maths I’m an engineer don't get… You're an engineer! What do you mean you can't do maths?!

I thought there was for 42 weeks a year Anyway next month we are entering fully into the spooky month of October And we will be chopping and changing things a little bit Obviously we will maintain our long-standing tradition of doing berserk. Don't you worry. It's not even a pick We're just doing it but I feel like

We also need to do a scary book. We need to get into the horror fields. Yes And Geordie when I was thinking about what scary book I would want to read I cast my mind back and I thought about a promise that we made long ago Uh, do we say we were going to read like a particular scary book?

We did Geordie and we didn't just say it to each other. We said it to the author themselves Hailey Piper When we interviewed them on this podcast We had just finished reading The Worm and His Kings and we loved it We said it was amazing. We did we said it to their face. It's incredible. Absolutely loved it And it has a sequel in fact has two sequels now It does we were a little behind the time. We said we would read that one before

The previous one came out. It was a couple of months ago. I think it wasn't the next one is Even the Worm Will Turn, is that what it's called? That is correct. Release in 2023, Even the Worm Will Turn the sequel to The Worm and His Kings and I believe the most recent book in the series is the Song of the Tyrant Worm This is cosmic horror This is a powerful trans main character

And hopefully this will be just as brilliant as the first book in the series fingers crossed. That was a real unexpected one Just picked a book at random, which I heard one person talk about online Turned out to be one of the best surprises that we'd had in the podcast so far So whilst this one is not going to be a surprise. I’m really excited to see what it's like

Well, I suppose that's it then and then we'll just have to wait Geordie. We'll have to wait For me to pick Red Country until then I’ve been your host Geordie Bailey and I’ve been your other host Duncan Nicoll till next time I’ve already forgotten our fancy northern names Uh, you are Black Tooth Geordie and this has been Merciless Duncan Bye bye!