Hello and welcome to another episode of Is This Just Fantasy? I'm your host, Geordie Bailey.
And I'm his friend who just wants to kick back and relax with a nice cup of coffee, Duncan Nicoll.
And we are a fantasy book club. Every other week we sit down, we peruse through a fantasy novel and we give it a review.
And this week we're talking about Legends of the Nates by Travis Baldry.
This is not a sort of fantasy novel Duncan that I've ever read before. This is a real departure for us from high fantasy, grand adventures, whole realms, being at great peril, revolution coming. None of that in this book.
No, this is a very different, small scope, intimate, kind of cozy fantasy read. Almost using the fantasy as a light set dressing at points. I think that's something I really want to hash out with you later. But Geordie, before we jump into Legends of the Nates, have you been reading anything else over the little interlude?
I have. I have read a little something else and it's actually relevant to our podcast. Although it is not fantasy, I am currently in the middle of reading Yellow Face by R. F. Kuang, the writer of The Poppy War.
Interesting. So I didn't... I was vaguely aware of Yellow Face. I know about Babel, her other fantasy work. Now Geordie, we weren't the biggest fans of The Poppy War. I think you liked it even less than I did.
I was the big naysayer in that book. But Yellow Face is so good. This is a really good book.
OK, I'm actually genuinely really happy to hear that because I think it's interesting how, you know, one book does not make an author and it can just be their style or what they're going for in that story. So tell me, what's Yellow Face actually about?
Well, I'll put it quite briefly, but it's about... there are two writers, they're friends, but definitely not close friends. One of them is an extremely successful Chinese-American author who dies in an accident. And her friend is a much less successful author. She's technically published, but like, her book was not well received. She finds the manuscript for her dead friend's next hit and then she appropriates it. She takes it.
She pretends it's her own and says, “I wrote it in memory of my dead friend.” And I don't know where the story is going from here, but it's clearly going to be this sort of cat-and-mouse game of how long can she cover up this lie and what harm does she do to the book and all the changes she makes to it in order to make it more palatable.
So it's about cultural appropriation. It's about plagiarism, which is super relevant this week because we're recording this on the 9th of December, 2023, and plagiarism is a really hot topic in this exact week. So a very choice book for this occasion.
See, I think you've kind of sold it there. I am going to have to say that because, taking that plagiarism in the conversation, it's like that I'm really kind of fascinated by coming from a bit more of an academic background. It is the biggest red flag. No, no, don't you dare ever, ever plagiarise. It's just the worst kind of crime you can commit when it comes to published works.
And to kind of dive into the emotional states of like why people do it and is there a wibbly wobbly line or is there a very hard line?
That's a good read. What have you been reading, Dunc? D: Well, Geordie, I have taken it kind of the complete opposite direction. I finished Legend and Lattes very quickly.
Yeah, I found it really enjoyable to read. So when I had that kind of free block in my schedule, I went for the opposite end of the spectrum. I went for a really classic epic fantasy, high fantasy book. And I finally, finally got round to finishing off the Rift War saga by reading A Darkness at Sethanon, the first sort of arc in the Rift War cycle by Iman Feist.
And how did you find it? D: Good. Great. Very, it was very good. It was strong. It was strong. It was solid.
It definitely left me in a place of “I really enjoyed the first book,” all the first two books, depending how you count. I won't go into that now. And I thought like, oh, no, this was this took like the basic structure and elevated it. But I do feel that the subsequent two books in the series I've read, Silverthorn and A Darkness at Sethanon, I don't think they quite elevate it to the same level.
They don't play… they're still very traditional: “bad guys over there. They're evil. They're goblins. They're dark elves. They're trolls.” And us, the good humans are going to fight them and there’s going to be a last stand. It's going to be all epic and heroic. And I did enjoy that. And I genuinely thought it was a great read. I really do recommend it. I'm sure at some point we will touch on this series in this podcast. But I did have a moment when I put it down. I went, I'm glad I read it.
But I do think the landscape has moved on quite a lot since when this was first written. It's of the late 80s where I'm almost too used to grim dark, morally gray characters, the worst of humanity… although it's really refreshing to get that: “evil monsters over there; we're going to be heroic humans.” And by the way, I'm slightly understanding it. There's some really great like elements when it comes to, like, the powers of the gods in this world.
It's a really cool magic and they travel through time at one point and some of the visuals are really interesting. The visuals, the descriptions, but those kind of fundamental moral lines are still very firmly in place. And I'm like, cool. I'm sure, you know, I mean, I'm enjoying reading and there's loads of people out there who would love this. But I was like, I almost feel like I've moved on or I'm just not quite ready for this now.
You know, I'm in too many other kind of, oh, what's what are the questions? What are the big questions of morality to have a very black and white book again? It's like, well, that was fun.
Sure, I hear you. So, we'll probably get into the Riftwar at some point in the future. Mark on your calendars: 2026 and we get around to that one! But for the present, we're reading Legends and Lattes. I said, Duncan, that I've never really read a book like this before. Do you… have you come across something like this before? Something where the stakes are extremely low? It's about the success of a coffee shop.
Not in book form. I think I have definitely seen I watched an anime called like The Devil is a Part-Timer, where it's like a heroic dark- it's like a dark lord ends up transported to another world and works in, like, a McDonald's. It had a similar, not a similar vibe. But I have seen this idea of going really low key before. But this is the first time I sat down and really took in a whole novel's worth of it and really wondered…
Yeah, I want to make clear that I don't think this is like I'm not claiming this is in any way a unique book. It's just not something that I peruse often because I know about stuff like The Devil is a Part timer. And there are a lot of like isekai anime, that’s about people running a general store or being a pharmacist. But I don't watch that shit because it sounds boring.
And that was the thing that I was always fascinated by. I didn't pick this book... Well, I partly picked this book because it was on sale. [Duncan laughs at his own joke.] [Geordie does a disapproving raspberry] But I was really curious. I wanted to know: what do you fill that page count with? And is it going to be interesting? Will I still be engaged?
Or is this just some really niche thing that certain people will just resonate with and others will just be sitting there like, “can something happen, please?” “Please, can something happen?”
And I think that this is a book where it has to resonate with you. Because long before you picked this, Duncan, I had seen a whole bunch of like posts about how much people hate this book and about how, you know, “like it's so overhyped” and stuff.
So when I when you brought it up, I thought like, oh, that's that book that like was initially well received, but people have turned against. 74 00:07:56,500 --> 00:07:59,500 G: Reading it now it's so obvious. This is just something you have to like. And if you don't like it, well, there's nothing you can say about it.
And granted, that is every single book we read. But for this one in particular, it just comes down to are you able to be interested in these characters and their largely unimportant, but still heartfelt desires? And for me, I absolutely could. I was so onboard throughout this entire book. It had me from chapter one on.
I'm both, like, elated to hear that and in some ways kind of disappointed, because I think this would be a much more interesting conversation if one of us didn't like it. But I also was completely brought in on it.
I mean, Duncan, right now, right now, Duncan, I'm going to take on the role of someone who didn't like that book. And I don't think it would make for an interesting podcast, because here's what you have to say: [Geordie affects a satirical douchey voice] G: “Nothing happened. Like nothing important happened.” “I kept waiting for stuff to kick off for the exciting bits to begin.”
“And it never did. Like it was just about whether they could find new baked goods and whether they're going to patch the hole in the ceiling.” “And even the exciting bit about them dealing with a mafia. It just gets like handwaved away. The fuck, man?” [Geordie drops the satrire] G: You know, that's my impression. I don't believe any of that crap.
And all I can say is: “oh, that's a shame. Don't worry, though. There are loads of other books out there you'll enjoy.”
Yeah, exactly.
And I think that's something to really be said. This is a story and to give a brief summation, because you did drop in the mafia there, which I think was a curve… …I wasn't fully expecting. This is a story on a very classic and common tropey fantasy world. We have all the characters you expect out of your kind of D&D campaign and some you wouldn't actually, to be fair. But they're all stocks that we've kind of already seen.
And we follow Viv, who's an orc, who used to be a fighter, who used to travel around with her band, doing mercenary work. And just one day she gets to thought to herself, is this it? Is this it forever until I either get an unlucky hit in and I go down? No, I want to retire. So she saves up her money. She goes on one last quest to get a magical good luck charm. And she invests in a way to set up a coffee shop. And she rocks up in a new town. She's the new person on the block.
And we just follow her as she makes friends, calls in favors, is nice to people and slowly turns… …and this is a really important part, is that opening the coffee shop, she has to convert like an abandoned stable. So, so much of this, definitely the first third of this book, is the story of just sweeping it out, knocking it down, getting the new tables in, sanding them down, waxing the tables.
Oh, yes. If you're not prepared for an author to lovingly go over the work that needs to be done to restore an old building, stop reading it. Chapter three, put the book down because I fucking love that shit. I had such a good time. And then I'm so excited to see… I was on tender hooks in parts of this book being like, “oh, man, are they going to find a baker to make good baked goods?” “What's going to happen next?” But there is still a structure. There is still some action in here.
There is a moment of turmoil. There's sort of two main antagonistic forces. And while I wouldn't say one of them is kind of handwaved away, I think it works for the plot. So it was by that point, Geordie, I think this would be a real dividing line for someone. If you weren't happy that I got hand waved away so you could go back to the cozy stuff, then I think you're not on the right level.
You're not quite attuned. G: Yeah, and I think what we've said, we've said hand waved away in quite a blase way.
And that is not an accurate way to describe it. That's just us going over it very briefly. To be more precise… So I'll just lay this out. Viv, the orc, has opened up her coffee shop. Things are starting to go quite well. The business is picking up speed. And a character keeps coming around. This mafia goon keeps saying, “it's a real nice place you got here. You got to pay protection money.” “I'm running a protection racket for The Madrigal, the local mafia boss. And you have to pay up.”
“Every week you're going to have to pay a little bit of money and we won't get in your way.” Viv is this big tough barbarian and she keeps saying: “no, no, I'm not going to pay you any money.” This guy keeps giving her warnings and eventually we come to a head. She meets The Madrigal and. And she just eventually she says: “OK, fine.” There's this… the drama of the scene isn't that Viv's going to have to fight a bunch of mob goons.
It's Tandri, her business partner and, you know, partner in other things. Her concern that Viv is going to be forced back into a life of violence, something that she's managed to escape, that people will see her the way in which she is perceived, not the way in which she is. And so that's what's actually at stake. It's Viv's humanity. And when she just says, “fine, I'll go along, I'll pay my dues” and she submits, she gives up.
That is so much braver than her defiance. It's like in it's like in the Worm and his Kings, like say what Corinne says, it's like sometimes giving up takes more courage than continuing. It kind of goes to the… for me at least it tapped into that same vein of, like, reading a Superman comic, where it's like the hero has the power to just take the villain out. But that's not what you're looking for. It's about them holding back and toeing the line and knowing when's enough and staying a good guy.
That's what you're rooting for. Not just winning the fight. There's this… there's this manga, now an anime, called Vinland Saga. And it's eventually it's a… it becomes a story about pacifism. It becomes a story about the hopelessness of violence and about how it never makes you happy. It always ruins your life. And you can become addicted to it.
And there's this part of the story where the main character is so committed to nonviolence that he allows people to beat him and attack him and he never fights back. And this moment of him refusing to fight, of just taking the hits and getting back up and not doing anything is so much cooler and braver and more impressive than any feats of violence he's previously done in the entire manga. And he makes this statement of like: “I will run away whenever danger comes.
I will just run even it's to the ends of the earth.” And you can't believe how the language of violence and the cinematic display of violence has been co-opted into something completely alien to its nature.
And it almost reveals itself though. Even when you have a character and it that is violent and there is an action scene. You don't root for them just to be violent. D:Like when you there's moments that you really think about it's about the character standing up and being brave and defying the odds. That's what you're rooting for. The fact that it often gets packaged up in violence isn't the point. You don't want a character just to walk into a room and be super powerful and mop the floor.
Occasionally it can be fun. But in general that you can't sustain that. G: Some people do. It's about the idea of standing for values and doing the right thing. Whether or not that's in a violent package or a peaceful package.
And when Viv chooses not to do violence she's choosing the harder path. She's choosing: “I'm going to live out the simpler humbler quieter life even if it costs me something.”
Now, we did say hand wave though, because it does get slightly I think. Because the whole point is the fact that it's not that Viv can't afford the money. At least that's not the impression I got. It was just the ethics or the morals or the internal… G: And the pride. The pride. That's a much better way to phrase it. The pride of like I can't give up a bit of what I've worked for.
So I do think when she makes that sacrifice, and I'm going to just tilt over I think into a bit of a spoiler on this one. The Madrigal basically goes: “ah I'm really impressed by you.” “Don't you worry we'll work out a deal.” “I don't want you to abandon your pride.” And I was like okay. But that is nice and it does give me a warm hearted feeling. But we'd already just made the big sacrifice.
I don't follow, Duncan.
Well she doesn't have to give the money in the plot.
Yes she does.
She doesn't? She gives baked goods. [Long pause] G: Yes, she gives him the money every week. That's not how I read it. Have I misremembered this? I definitely remembered it as a...
Yes, you have misremembered this. There's multiple scenes afterwards where characters come and they collect money from her.
I didn't think they were collecting money. I thought they were just collecting like baked goods.
No the money's in the baked goods, man.
I don't think that's how I interpret it.
Well maybe I'm wrong. My interpretation was… I'm pretty sure, Duncan, they’re not just after the cinnamon rolls! [Duncan laughs] D: I thought they genuinely are.
They went: “those are really good cinnamon rolls.” “Here, I'll take some cinnamon rolls instead of the baked goods.” That's why they don't have to pay.
I am going to re-read that section after the episode and we'll find out who's correct. Drum roll please ladies, gentlemen and non-binary pals. [Future Geordie interrupts the show and speaks in a echoey voice] Future G: The correct answer is Duncan. Future Duncan got it right. I was wrong.
Urgh. Fuck. [Future Geordie departs] G: If that is the case I will mark down my opinion of this book somewhat.
Because I don't like that at all. That's stupid. But yeah. By your definition I don't think it's a handwave.
But that's why I find interpretation is, like, oh they got off a bit light there. After we just made the big sacrifice. But that's really only one plot arc. Even a subplot. Because then we do move on to more. But honestly Geordie I don't feel like that's what I'm... I'm not here with the excitement wanting to talk about those challenges. I want to start talking about the side characters. Because that's really where I feel like this shines.
Yeah yeah, absolutely. The characters and the ensemble and the growing ensemble. That's sort of the charming part of it.
So Geordie, what did you think about Cal?
Cal is the first character that Viv meets and befriends in the city. He's a hob. That's this book's term for a goblin I guess.
A hobgoblin's a pretty grounded thing isn't it?
Yeah a hob. Very essential part of fantasy. And so this guy is... What I like about Cal is that he's an initial first friendly face. A sort of gruff figure. Who you get to bounce other characters’, you know, sincerity off of. Because he's got a bit of a guarded heart. You know, like he's got a heart of gold in there. But you really got to dig for it. And what I like about it is that as he and Viv go close. There is this strong presence of, well, Cal is a carpenter.
Cal's not going to work for the store. Cal's important to the story. But he has to slip away. And that happens. And I genuinely felt bad. Knowing as soon as the work was done. That we weren't going to see as much of him. And that he would be lonely. And it's very strange for me to have a side character. Who has a functional job within a story. For me to go, “oh, my character's going to be lonely now.” “He doesn't have a reason to be around anymore.”
I love the fact that you've gone, that character's going to be lonely. Not, I'll miss him. No, no, that character has been so well realised. That I'm like, yeah, no, he's going to be in the... He's going to be like behind the page. Sad that he's not hanging out with our characters.
I was! I created a real sense of living space. In my head for this book. And this book is such a nice, tied up, simple package. I was actually, I was concerned when I found out that there was another book in the series. But when I found out that it's a prequel, I was like, well, that just makes sense. Because this book, it has such a complete story arc. That I really didn't want it to go any further.
It's kind of hard because I'm in two minds. On the one hand, I'm like, would I want just this concept played out again? Like, could you just pick up new characters, different scenario, and go through the same motions? But I believe the prequel is a bookshop?
I don't know. I know the prequel is about books. I don't actually know what it's about. I mean, I don't... I really struggle to actually comprehend what it could be. Aside from Viv getting the idea to start a business. Because I feel like Viv would mention if she started a previous business endeavor.
Exactly. It seems a bit odd. But on the one hand, I'm like, well, there aren't many books that I'm aware of out there like Legends and Lattes. So obviously I want more books like this. But at the same time, I'm like, how can you be like this, but still be different enough to be worth going around again? So I am intrigued.
The thing that I feel like we should bring up at this juncture is that whilst there aren't a lot of books in my experience like this, and certainly not ones that are quite as successful as this, this is much more of a video gamey sort of setting. Like, Stardew Valley, stuff like that. Games like this, which are cozy and quiet and quaint and where there's very little outside pressure. Those seem to be much more common in this sort of whimsical, soft, fantastical setting.
Do you feel, because I often when we are speaking of this book, getting that kind of D&D setting, but in terms of tropes. But you're right, that's not actually really accurate because D&D never gives you the same vibes. Depends how you run it, I guess.
It shouldn't. If you're getting these vibes and playing Dungeons and Dragons, then you're playing it wrong. [Duncan laughs] Like, that's not what the game is for. You should play a game about starting a coffee shop. And actually, when I first heard about this years ago, my impression was this is really about a D&D party that gives up adventuring and starts a coffee shop, which a whole bunch of D&D campaigns kind of turn into.
Characters realise that they're not actually that interested in fighting monsters and they'd much rather open a tavern. And that's really hard to do in a game that doesn't support running a business. There are rules in the game, in the Fifth edition of Dungeons and Dragons for running a business, and they suck. They're awful rules.
Do you have a recommendation? Is there a roleplay system out there that you're like, yeah, try this?
No, because I'm not interested in playing that in a roleplaying game. If I wanted to do that, I'd play Stardew Valley. [Future Geordie returns] Future G: I kind of fired from the hip with that answer, but if I had to give a recommendation, the only one I can really think of is Blades in the Dark.
It's the only game I've played which is actually about running a business, even though it's actually about running a criminal enterprise. I'm sure there are lots of good games out there which do similar rules to Blades in the Dark for complications around running a business. Lord knows there are a lot of indie RPGs out there, and yeah, definitely look it up. It shouldn't be hard to find.
I bet you could find a Reddit post saying, “I want to play Legend of the Lattes. What RPG system would you recommend?”
Fair enough. I think that's a good stance to take. But then going back to them then, so this is kind of a unique vibe, but I don't know, I feel like some of the elements that really engage me, yes, you've got the, what is this that we're actually saying is unique? It is the whole package, but a lot of the character arcs, you've got Cal who's got a heart of gold, you've got Dig, you've got Tandri who's a bit cold and standoffish,
but you just want to see that kind of fall apart and grow closer to Viv. The Ratkin… Thimble, sorry, who is a Ratkin, Cutest character ever. I think these are characters I could love in another setting. It's just I like the fact that because the focus, the main focus is on this renovation and the business, you're not always distracted away from the characters. You can always just trust that they'll come back in the next chapter and they'll be there and we can keep working on that.
Speaking of Tandri, I feel like the relationship between Viv and Tandri is a really solid and serviceable part of the book, which just gives it so much of its cohesion. They're not exactly like big nuanced characters, but you really enjoy seeing them hang out. You love seeing them talk. They're a really solid cohesive team. There's no great source… there's no really great source of drama between them.
There's very few points where they have anything like an argument. So you get this sort of fantasy, like to use it in its lowercase f term, the idea of having a really supportive partner, whether that was a business partner or whether that's a romantic partner, someone who will go along and help you achieve your dreams.
Oh God, the fact that that's a fantasy, I mean, obviously it is, but it touched my heart up again thinking about it. And it is really nice to see. I really like it when you get a couple in literature who don't have drama between them. It drives me up the wall, this idea that focus on romance being “the will, they won't they?” They're torn apart, there's been a misunderstanding.
I do just like: no, it can be really nice just to watch two people who do get on, who do work well together just slowly, and in my opinion, very naturally, the pacing I felt was really well done. G: Yeah, like Joey and Rachel. [Geordie giggles at his own joke] G: I don't know why I said that. I don't know why I said that. I’m just throwing shit out there. This episode needs to be spicier. Well, Geordie, I completely disagree. I do see the Jerry and Rachel thing.
And like when you're watching it, I'm watching it back again, as you always do. And it always really upsets me that you get so much slow, gradual build towards it and then they just throw it in the bin in a single episode. [Duncan thumps the table in bizarre frustration] Like, absolute waste of potential. Let's explore it. And it's going to break down. They should have had a breakdown in somewhere a bit more interesting.
[Geordie sounds panicked at Duncan’s increasing frustration] G: Oh man, oh man, it's getting heated. I didn't realize it was such a hot, this is such a, this is such a crucial point for him. [Duncan grows louder and more heated] D: And to have that put in the bin and Rachel go back to Ross at the end. I mean, people say that show has a good ending.
That is just a betrayal of everything that's happened over the last 10 seasons. G: I don't think I've ever heard anyone say the final episode of Friends is good. [Duncan goes all soppy] D: Oh no, the ending for Monica and Chandler, it's just that warms my heart. G: Of course it does!
I also like the last joke. The last joke's a good one. What a, no, this is not what we're talking about! Listen, what I really like is that this book essentially takes a very familiar structure in fantasy. And it just completely recontextualizes. And I'm talking, what I'm talking about is assembling the band. You know, go back to like… D: Kings of the Wild. G: Kings of the Wild. Yes, exactly Duncan. Thank you.
Go back to Kings of the Wild. Like that's a classic trope, getting the band back together in this case or getting the band together in the first place. How many fantasy adventures do we see where they go from place to place and slowly they pick up stragglers? Until you have a cohesive team put together. That happens in this book as well, except the different members of the team are Viv, Viv's assistant, the carpenter who helps build the shop, the baker and the local guitar player or lute player.
Pendri.
Pendri, yes.
Pendri was so much fun in this. Pendri, for being the bard, and he is an actual bard, and simultaneously like being everything that like a Dungeons and Dragons game bard is sort of meant to be, but at the same time still fitting this setting perfectly. Like the bravado yet his nervousness and he's like, he's like he's got the swagger, he's just not confident in it yet. I don't think I could like him more.
What I like about it is that it's, it completely changes what you'd expect from the cocksure ladies man tropey bard to this sort of Ed Sheeran type. [Duncan laughs] G: you know, like the, oh he's just a regular guy who has guitar and because he knows three chords all the girls like him.
Like what I love about that is that Pendri is obviously completely oblivious how many people at the coffee shop are coming there to watch him and like, fawn over him and he has no idea because he has no self-confidence. He doesn't know that he's like a cute so and so he just thinks he's a big clumsy oath.
And it's just so different and I love the way particularly gets characterized that when he first goes there he plays like a really out of place song. I think he's meant to wrote like a heavy metal piece.
Exactly yeah, he's playing hardcore rock and roll.
And he gets the moment where people just kind of look at him, he like realizes what he's done and he just runs away.
So cute. No, and the great thing about that scene is that it plays into the overall building momentum of the story because what the story really is about is the invention of the coffee shop. Now, we mentioned earlier, like you said way right at the start, Viv has opened a coffee shop. But what the novel does that's smart is that it makes the idea of a coffee shop something that's quite arcane, something that's quite weird and foreign.
Coffee is a gnomish drink in this. It's something that only the gnomes know to make and only gnomes initially kind of drink it at all and Viv is in that way a sort of pioneer going into a business which only she knows about.
The coffee machine like the one you see in a coffee shop is this grand piece of gnomish architecture which no one understands and she has to get people to agree that they like coffee, like calling it “hot bean juice” and there's all sorts of gags in the book about people being like, “it's not really like tea at all. What do you what do you mean?” And how hard it is to describe the flavor.
And so throughout the book, what you see is things slowly being invented for the first time like: the idea of pairing drinks with food, the idea of drinks being able to have on the go, the idea that you could sit in the coffee shop and not pay for anything and then eventually they're like, no, we have to do a policy about this where you have to buy a drink and they invent that. And so by the end they have a fully realized coffee shop out of nothing and it's so cute and satisfying.
And this is really well demonstrated in the book by the fact that ever so often and I don't know, do you have a physical copy or did you get a digital one?
I got the audiobook D: No! G: because I thought it was important because Travis Baldree does the narration because Travis Baldree is a professional voice actor.
Right. That might change this quite a bit because when you have a physical copy of the book, every so often you get a really nice page that does the menu, and the menu’s getting updated and it has all of the description of how the menus been, you know, actually looks with the artwork and the decals on it are actually there on the page. So I love the fact that as you go through… G: It's like a progression bar in a video game. D: (Doubtful) Uhhhh…
As things get filled in. D: Yeah, I think so. I always love it. It's like The Legend of Zelda where you like you open up your inventory screen at the start and it has all the blank spaces.
You're like, I know things are going to go in there, but I don't know what yet.
It's very clear that because the narrator is the author, he understands how important that is. So he makes sure to deliver it in a way that you're like, yes, this is important. This signifies the growth of the store. And when each time it ends with, I can't remember what the line exactly is, but it's like, “fine tastes for the working woman and gentlemen” or whatever.
Each time he says it, he's like, “yes, this is the ethos of the store. I'm really going to sell it to you to understand that when I say this line, that is a leitmotif telling you I finished reading the menu, we are making progress.”
I think it’s that emphasis on the small details that actually makes this book work. I said earlier, like, how do you fill out the page count? And it's by giving this detailed description and the time to things that otherwise would be quite small. I was thinking of doing this comparison for someone who hadn't read the book, but being like, oh, it's a bit like in Sean of the Dead, like shooting like mundane things, but like their own action scene, like buttering bread.
But I don't think that's quite the description I'm going for. I think a better way would be to…
No, what it is, it's like a Hemingway novel. Hemingway novels are all about doing minute details and just laying out. “We do this and then we do that” and just doing step by step process going through and the process of doing something in its own way becomes beautiful.
There’s just this line quite late in the book, which just, I don't know, really hit me on this point where we have: “by the time Thimble slipped in the door, the dairyman had delivered their cream and butter and eggs.” I'm like, thank you for telling me the dairyman had already come. Because you know what? I didn't know when he came and I didn't know what he brought you. I didn't know you had that on order. [Geordie laughs] And that's important. G: Yeah.
And there's a bit in the book where they get like an ice box and I'm like, oh, good. They have an ice box! I feel good about this” I like to know that the store is coming along. D: I'm genuinely just so impressed because I feel like I can't…
But I've not actually ever worked in a coffee shop, so I am not an expert. I feel like I can't critique it. I feel like he's actually nailed every detail. It's like, “yeah, don't you don't you worry. Nothings gone amiss.” You are seeing this business put together piece by piece. [Laughing] I almost feel more prepared to go into the world now and open my own coffee shop. G: Ha! Probably false confidence there, having read this book, though.
Well, you don't have a magic luck stone to bury at the intersection of magical lines.
Do you want to go into detail on that? Because that is the most fantasy, tropey, plotty point in this book.
Yes. And it's the biggest sort of source of drama in the entire book. I mean, it is literally a thing that all the drama rotates around. It's this item. What's it called, Duncan?
Oh, no, don't catch me on that one. G: I'm not trying to catch you out. I don't remember.
It's a very short book and I read it really fast. So it's been a while since I've read it.
[Without conviction] The Argon's Heart. I don't know. Let me… G: It's not the Argon, is it? D: No, it's not. I just made something up there. [Frantic googling] G: The Scalvert’s Stone. D: The Scalvert’s Stone, which is the last item Viv gets. It's the opening of the book. It's her going on her final quest and just taking this one item. So how does it work?
It's supposed to be, according to this ancient rhyme, a source of luck that if you bury this at the intersection of ley lines, it will make your heart's desire come true. So Viv takes this and she buries it under her coffee shop. And she thinks this is going to bring her luck. And a point comes throughout the story of people start to want to take this from her, particularly her old colleague, Fennus, this assassin elf guy who she's never gotten along with.
He wants it because he could take that and it can make his heart's desires come true. And basically, the source of drama is if he takes it away, the coffee shop's doing great. Will it go out of business? Will her luck turn around? Because what you have here is a story where everything just comes together. You know, Viv finds the right people. She finds the right opportunity to seize this thing. She gets people to come along and try her stuff and they like it.
Everything's coming together. Would everything fall apart if she lost it?
Now, having to set back into the critical reviewer part of me, this didn't quite work for me, Geordie, because the moment this was really introduced, I went, yeah, I know how this is going to end. It's going to turn out, no, it wasn't the magic power. It was Viv's hard work in good nature. And the true magic stone with the friends she made along the way.
But the thing is...!
Like, come on, that has to be the ending, otherwise this is not the right book.
I hear what you're saying, man, but no, for me, I was like, well, there's actually a good chance that this is magic, because otherwise the success of a store is a little bit unreasonable. Like, it's not easy starting up a store and you do lose more money than you make. Would it be so unreasonable that this is a source of magic? The way I thought it might end was that the stone is magic and that she was relying on it the whole time.
But by the time it gets taken from her, her shop is well established and times get harder and leaner and things just don't go as well as they are in the future. But by persevering, the moral of the story is, oh, maybe we needed magic at first, but if we just come together and we work together, we can push through the harder times and make it anyway.
See, the book does actually leave a little bit of ambiguity around this point about...
It does not.
Alright, Geordie, again, to that point, I felt it was an ambiguous whether or not the magic had a chance.
I wanted it to be... I wanted it to be more, ooh, maybe, who knows? But then a character comes along and he's like, no, no, no, no, I'm going to lay it out very plainly. This is what the rhyme actually means and this is what it actually does. And it did have an effect, but you don't need that effect anymore.
I didn't trust that character's full knowledge because they're based on the rhyme, but fine. Maybe I was just trying to get my twist off it.
That dude is a literal time traveler. [Duncan sighs] D: Okay, I will step down on this one.
I hope I was right on the prior point about The Madrigal and the payments, because otherwise I'm coming out like I didn't read this book very well. So that isn't, okay, the thing is, I just felt like that undermined Viv's accomplishments a little bit. I much would have preferred an ending where they came down hard and said, no, it wasn't that at all. I just think that would have had better catharsis for me.
I actually liked this reveal a lot and not going to lie, it did make me cry a little bit… at the office whilst I was listening to it. What was revealed is: heart's desire doesn't mean financial success. What it actually means is you find the right people. It says that it brings together people like you. It brings together people with the same heart as you. And we know this is confirmed to be true because, well, one, it brings together Viv and Cal and Tandri and Thimble.
Wait, what's the bard's name again? Pantry?
Pendri.
Pendri, excuse me, my bad. And Pendri. And when Fennus steals it and he burns down the store, when he comes back like a year later and he's hanging around, he crosses over the intersection of ley lines. And who is he confronted by? By criminals, by ruthless people with the same cruel, black heart as him. And then he gets eased by a cat.
Alright, I do see that now. That does make a lot more sense. I thought that was simply a [sheepish] coincidence, despite the book clearly making out there's a magical artist. [Geordie laughs] Oh yeah, yeah, he's [inaudible] with the criminals because that's just this just-come-uppance. Awesome.
And it is. It's karmically just because he has an evil heart, so it brings together people who also have an evil heart, to him. But what I like about it is that it means that Viv's success didn't have anything to do with magic making it so that people thought her business was a great idea. It just found her the people she needed who had the same hope and heart and dream and who could believe in her. And that's all she needed. She just needed people around her who believed in her dream as well.
So in many respects, it is still chalked up to Viv as a character because if Viv wasn't so effectively pure of heart, it would have worked.
Exactly! If she wasn't virtuous, she wouldn't have found other virtuous people.
Okay, I like that now. I am on board.
Good. Duncan, do you want to know the other scene that made me cry?
Yes.
So the big climax of the book is that the store gets burnt down. Fennus lights it on magic fire and while she manages to save her coffee machine and the very small amount of money she managed to make from the store and Tandri, most importantly, the store is gone. It gets completely burnt down. But then through people coming together, they start to rebuild it when all seems lost.
And just seeing, it's such a fucking standard scene, but seeing everyone who she's made friends with show up in order to help her out when they get nothing in return, that's a scene that's always going to get to me. It's like the end of It's a Wonderful Life. That makes me cry every year at Christmas.
But this time when Pendri showed up and just quietly without saying a word gets to work and you remember he's basically a strong farm labourer, I completely was welling up being like [Fighting tears] “don't cry Geordie, don't cry because Pendri's here.”
And I guess when you describe a scene like that, firstly I loved it too. I had such an emotional response. I thought it was so just heartwarming. At the time I wasn't in the best of moods either and this really did pick me up.
But I can also completely see that other person going “so hokey.”
“Oh come on. God, this is just too positive.” And I can't be like no it's not because it is. All I can say is “yes and I love it for it.”
Now the one thing which I previously did not like in the book was how at the ending the rebuilding of the store just gets bankrolled by The Madrigal. I felt like it wasn't earned and it just kind of came out of nowhere.
But actually if Duncan, your reading is right and they just want cinnamon rolls and they've completely forgotten any kind of like financial relationship at all, I guess that is cohesive and does make sense because the point of that scene would be we're not going to have any kind of financial exploitation of you. This is purely to save face. So as long as this is done under the table, I am not compromising our relationship.
So if you're right Duncan, then actually my complaint about that scene about how over the top The Madrigal's generosity is, then it doesn't apply. It's just not the case.
I think it does two things. It kind of makes the… firstly it's like The Madrigal’s statement is I’m not actually a: “I'm here to make all the money.” It's a: “I'm here to actually have a good working city and I deem you a benefit to my city.” And also is the other half, which is if everyone else thinks you've been paying me for protection money, then it would look awfully shit if I didn't fulfill my end of the bargain.
That's true. Maybe the fact that the place got burned down, she basically had the protection racket equivalent to like an insurance form to be like, “OK, we did not protect your store. Despite us having a protection agreement, we were obliged to rebuild it now.”
I mean… G: that's pretty funny, actually. if you were to take something which in the real life is quite, you know, a serious and unpleasant thing and give them like heartwarming twists, heartwarming twists to it. I think that's the best way to do it. So I imagine it in… it seems almost kind of Discworld to me if that is what the author is going for.
In Discworld, it would go completely full that way and have it be that, you know, a mafia boss or in their case, the thieves guild would have like a literal contractor coming around and sizing the place up to be like, [mobster voice] “it's a pretty nice place you got here…” “Now, this is what you're going to pay for our premium rate of protection. Here's our substituted rate,” stuff like that.
I mean, yes, and I would love it. Actually I'm surprised I've only just brought up Discworld. There’s certainly… I wouldn’t say this book is in the same space as Discworld because it's not hard on the comedy in the same way.
No, comedy is there, but it's quite subdued.
And I mentioned it's actually smaller in scope than any Discworld, but it certainly put me in the same comfortable frame for reading fantasy. I'm thinking if I start to recommend this to someone, that would be just the closest point of reference that I could kind of put the stake in and go, “yeah, maybe you like a bit of this. “You could then you might enjoy a bit of Legends and Lattes.”
I don't know. There's no Discworld novel that I can think of which actually compares to it in terms of tone, because normally there is a sort of adventure going on. There's a source of serious drama like The Witches and Death. Death is saving the universe and The Watch are investigating crimes and stuff. I mean, I can't think of anyone that's just like, oh, this is a low stakes… Then again, I haven't read the one where they play football.
I was actually going to pull up Unseen Academicals and The Truth, the one where he's writing for the local newspaper.
Okay. D: And maybe a tad more on the Raising Steam and Going Postal side of things. There's one about them making movies, right?
Yes, there is. That will also be roughly in the same ballpark, I think.
So the lowkey, this is just set in Ankh Morpork sort of books as opposed to the Thuds or the Guards! Guards!
Yes, definitely. And it may even a little bit more on the witch's side than the Death and the wizardry. I think I think there's something there. I'm not saying it's the same. I want to make that very clear. But I am saying if you're coming for this from the wider fantasy genre and you're just like, I just don't know, that would be the only indicator in my back catalogue I could pull up and be like, maybe, maybe not still.
But maybe. Whereas if you came to me when I really like Game of Thrones, I'm like, OK, great. I don't know if you'll like this. It's just a flip of the coin.
Duncan, what do you think about the romance in this book?
So glad you brought it back to that. The romance between Viv and Tandri, I really enjoyed. And I really enjoyed, as I sort of said earlier, because I think it progresses at a really nice pace. I don't think it throws itself too in. It's not the heat of passion. It's two people working together, learning how well they work together, both in the business sense and how they work off each other as just two people and then slowly coming together.
Yeah. D: Perfect. It suits the pace of the rest of the story. It's not one where… I was going to say the action of the coffee shop, but more the progression of the coffee shop, it doesn't go on pause for them to then focus on romance. They're two things that move… They're almost homoousian. You know, the success of the store is parallel to the success of their relationship. The moment when the store burns down, that's a major wedge between them.
And as the store goes back up, they get closer as well. And when the store is bigger and better than ever, their relationship is bigger and better than ever.
And it also really worked for me because from page one when Tandri, Viv's partner in this, first gets introduced, I didn't immediately go: “aha, there's our love interest.” I've got her. G: Sure, sure. It actually snuck up on me in general. In fact, even I think it was up until they were like, do you want to go and get a bite to eat after work? I was like: oh! Oh, OK. Yes, go for a bite to eat together. That sounds like fun. It didn't initially occur to me.
Actually, you know what I've just realised, and I made this mental note weeks ago. This has been quite a slow episode to come out, but I read and considered this right after I finished the book. And what this book really is… Duncan, if I said the words coffee shop AU to you, would you have any idea what I was talking about?
No, not a clue.
OK, so coffee shop AU is a type of fan fiction which stands for coffee shop alternate universe. And the idea is that you take two characters you like, or a whole cast of characters, and you make them into the owners or the workers at a coffee shop. Because basically, you take the characters and you take them out of the drama. You put them into a totally chill, hang out, easy space, and you just let them interact in a situation where their lives aren't on the line.
OK, I'm not going to lie, I do like the sound of that, and it to me sounds like it would be a great test of character work. Do your characters function as rounded individuals, or do they just drive your drama? And that’s no problem if they do just drive your drama, if your drama is just good enough. I don't necessarily think Conan the Barbarian is going to be the most interesting person in a coffee shop.
I know that's not true man, you were a huge fan of the Twitter account SalarymanConan.
[Begrudgingly] Yeah, OK, it's a great sort of channel and it had amazing jokes in it. But, my point being he doesn't have to be because in a short, punchy, action-filled story, your characters don't have to. But, it's great when they can stand alone and in a different context. So, do you have a particular favourite, Geordie?
I've never read one.
Are you a fan of this? Never read one?
No.
You should write one.
Fine, whatever.
Does that not sound the most fun?
Maybe. Maybe I will, who knows? Who knows? [G laughs to himself] Viv and Tandry, coffee shop AU!
To be fair though, it's something that-
What if these two people work together at a coffee shop?
I- [chuckles] sorry. It's something I do think is really nice though to have those quieter moments when characters can just talk to each other. It's like when they get to the tavern, you know, they've had an adventure, they've done a leg of their journey. Your characters have reached the next safe point, so you just let them sit around the campfire and have interactions. That way, when the next dramatic thing happens, you care all the more.
Yeah, it's- there are so many stories I've read where the characters fucking hate each other. The classic example of this for me is a book called To Kill a Kingdom, where these two characters have no reason to like each other. They're constantly sniping at each other and like making wisecracks to put one another down. One of them, their whole fate relies on them killing the other person.
And then at one point, they suddenly end up in danger, they're captured, and they're so worried about each other's safety suddenly. “Oh no, let her go, oh no!” And then after they escape, they're deeply in love. They're deeply in love. And it's so organic, Duncan, to go from hating each other to being in danger, to being completely madly in love with one another.
Okay, so we're talking about the enemies-to-lovers trope or the haters-to-lovers trope. What's the official name for it?
Yes, enemies-to-lovers, that is what I'm talking about.
Enemies-to-lovers.
You need a moment where their minds change, when they see that person in a different light, and it has to happen organically.
It has to happen organically. I'll be honest with you, I would struggle to pull up a perfect example for me. Because in general, I don't like this trope. I know why it makes good drama, I know how it can drive narratives, but ultimately-
You're not a big Reylo shipper?
[Absolute disgust] No. I just wanted to see Finn and Poe.
Yes, me too.
I never will.
So true. Now that’s a coffee shop AU. [Both laugh]
Well, back to this story.
Back to the story.
No! I just want to say this, I can't stand it. Maybe people feel this more in real life, but to me it's like I've never known people who started off hating each other and came around to loving each other. I just like, no, you hit it off. That's how it works. Maybe that's just my small perspective.
Have we not come across anything like that in the books we've read so far?
Have we ever had a-
I guess the closest would be the Poppy War, but they don't get together.
I am quickly thinking through. I don't think we've ever- well, we sort of skirted it in A Court of Thorns and Roses, haven't we?
Well, I guess. I mean, it's barely enemies to lovers, right? Like, she's like, I hate all Faye, but I can't help noticing how strong his cheekbones are. But then again, that's just all the fucking YA fantasy books that have come out in the spirit of Sarah J. Maas. We're so off topic.
Let's get back to what we like about Legend of Lartey. It's the fact that he doesn't do that.
Actually, we should talk about Scholomance, because that was kind of an enemies to lovers. She didn't like him at all. Man, I wonder what happened to their relationship, you know?
I don't know, man. There's just no way to find out. [White hot fury] G: It’s been a year, Duncan! Oh, sorry. And let's not forget that Children of Blood and Bone is basically a still-
Oh, yes, of course! That's the ultimate one! But then they don't get together. They hate each other by the end of the second book.
Third book's still pending, mate.
Who knows?
I have my guesses.
I have- I- yeah. Yep. Who knows? Genuinely, who knows? Um-
I'm actually so off topic, I can't even remember where we were.
I… also like the romance. That's what we were talking about. And what I like most about it is how Tandri is a succubus. It's their version of like a tiefling, but it is very much stays in the realm of actually, like, having magical make you fall in love with me powers. And what I love about it in this version is that succubuses don't - succubi - , don't have magical I'll make you fall in love with me powers.
They just project out their feelings as like an aura, and you feel all of their passions and their excitement. And so Tandri keeps all that stuff buttoned up underneath to make sure that she doesn't have any kind of effect on people because she doesn't want to send the wrong message. And then right at the end when she and Viv kiss and she lets down all those walls and Viv feels all this passion and excitement come flooding out. Ugh, I love that. That was so sweet.
It is sweet. I just want to be clear though. This is just a thing where you can feel what they're feeling. It's not about them manipulating how you feel.
Yes, but of course it's like it's infectious. It's an infectious excitement.
Because I'm not going to spoil part of me does seem like you sort of from a moral obligation should try and keep a cap on that. If that's going to influence someone else unfairly. I'd say that's quite dangerous power to have. It’s really sweet in the book and it doesn't go into that detail, but I am like, no, you need to have like if you if you being like in love with someone can influence their feelings of love.
I don't know. I think you just you just feel it. It's like when someone laughs, you're more inclined to laugh when you hear someone laugh. It's sympathetic.
I guess so. And I guess also you…it's never a secret where it's coming from. So you can be like, ah, that's what they're feeling. I do get that vibe.
It’s like the Noise in The Knife of Never Letting Go.
And it is that moment of relief when they finally kiss gets to me. I could they are going to be together and they are going to be actually together, not just business partners. This is where it's going to end, which is where you want it to end. So that was really nice.
Also, the final part of the.. The final part of the arc is Viv turning her shop into a cooperative.
Yes. Yes, it is communism for the win. Socialism. G: Yes, exactly.
No, no more big time boss Viv. Now they're all equal partners in the business.
No, my point to that, though, is I do think it's really nice firstly because they have all come together. They are a band. They're like a family now, which is really nice, which would always feel a little bit off like it does in a workplace where they're like, we're a family here. You know. When it's like, no, you pay me to be here. Let's get this very clear.
Also, it seems like the only thing Viv can truly give back at the end for them helping literally rebuild the entire business is like the recognition is like all I have to give you is a share in what we've created together.
Exactly. We haven't talked much about Thimble, but at the end of the day, thimble is very cute because they're a little mouse person and they make sweet baked goods and that's great. G:But it can't be overstated that in the book, they make it very clear that a huge part of the shop's appeal is not Viv and it's not even her coffee. It's Thimble's work as a baker. Thimble is a baking genius and she would not be that successful without Thimble.
And the idea that Thimble would just be a salaried worker who is the linchpin of their business. To be honest, throughout the book, there are parts I was like, I feel kind of feel bad for Thimble because you're clearly way more important to this company than she could ever hope to pay you with a salary. So Thimble becoming part of the co-op and being a co-owner of the business is such a good, justified ending.
It is. I mean, looking at the final menu now, it's like I think most of the money must come in off Thimble.
Absolutely, because Thimble's, the things Thimble makes are the most expensive ones.
Yeah. So says a coffee: half bit, latte: one bit. And then it goes to like Thimble's baked goods. It's like cinnamon roll, four bits, eight times the cost of a coffee. I think these are meant, they're called midnight crescents. I think they're meant to be just a… G: They’re brownies D: Sorry?
They're like brownies, I think.
No, it's a buttery fold over with a sinful center. I thought it's meant to be like a pain au chocolat.
Oh, OK. If they're crescents, then they're not pain au chocolat, they're chocolate croissant.
Oh yeah, you're right, actually. It is a chocolate croissant.
I do, this might, listen, we might get some very mad French listeners, but that's fine. Duncan says nasty stuff about the French all the time.
[jingoistically] yes I do. G: And I prefer a chocolate croissant to a pain au chocolat. My favorite is an almond croissant. I don't think you can top it. Where me and Geordie went to university together, the student union shop had like a local bakery supplier for their almond croissants. And I still am seeking the high of having that for the first time. Beautiful things. [Geordie laughs]
We have a friend who works there, he could get you some.
Do you know what, that's never occurred to me, I'm actually going to tap him up for that now. [Geordie laughs again] They also do, you can get like a focaccia. Oh, beautiful stuff. I miss it so much.
Duncan, I feel like we've explored a lot of what makes this book work. I really don't feel like we're missing anything important. You know, like, there's her previous band of adventurers, but to be honest, they're not the characters I'm most excited to talk about. I'm much more interested in talking about hobgoblin carpenters when I am, like an assortment of thieves and adventurers and stuff. I kind of feel like we've covered what I want to cover.
I mean, everything else is just getting lip service to what I feel is so good. The character of Hemington, who's a student who visits the shop, and it's the one that aforementioned, who they make the rule that you have to buy something. I'm like, I can just see him. I just feel like, yeah, I know him. And maybe it's because I spent time in a-
Hemington is so good for the story because he is this really hard to please customer. He's not an asshole. He's not a jerk you want to kick out. But he's just this guy who keeps having problems that make him a bad customer where he wants to come in and just work and not pay for a coffee. And then when they serve him up and try and make him buy a coffee, he says, “I don't like hot drinks.” And then later, they- so you're thinking in your head, aha, they need to introduce food.
If he buys food, then he can sit in. And then they bring him out a cinnamon roll and say “alright, you can stay in if you eat this.” And he says, “I can't eat bread.” And so you're like, ah, Hemington! And then finally, finally, they introduce iced coffee. And finally he's satisfied. And it feels like this gigantic win. Like, yes, we got him! We finally have found something that he'll eat!
I just love that moment because he drives the innovation and like the forming out of the menu. Like that's why these things exist because there are people who don't like some of the basics, who want that interesting thing. When I first went to a coffee shop with my partner, and she was like, can I get the fruit coolly? And I'm like, people order that. Okay. I'll get a caramel latte, please.
The first time I got a bubble tea, I was on a first date. I'd never gotten it before. I don't drink tea. And so we went up and we ordered it. We looked in the menu and I asked, can I please get a strawberry, because I love strawberry flavored things, a strawberry green fruit tea with strawberry popping pearls. And I got it. I drank it. I didn't like it. And literally, long line, 10 minutes after I ordered, I sat down, I drank it. I didn't like it.
She said, yeah, that's one of the bad ones. [Exasperated] Why didn't you tell me?! We've been in this life for ages! [Duncan laughs]
I mean, I feel you there. Bubble tea is a nightmare when you're first going. My local one. So while I've been living in my current house, we had a little independent bubble tea place start up. And to be honest, I got a lot of vibes reading this story to like watching them develop their bubble tea shop. When they first opened, they had a limited menu and now they just kept picking. They've got new extra items, new food things, mochi you can have in the summer.
And I just love watching the develop. And it's like there's a great bit in this book where they talk about when the customer rushes are. And it's like, oh, yeah, first thing in the morning, you get the workers on their way in. But then there's a lull and I'm like, you know, and then you get the people who kind of drip in late in the afternoon or come for their chats and things. And I love it because it's the local bubble tea shop because like I always go late at night.
So when they first opened, it was like I think it was very normal. I was like half eight till five thirty long hours. But then they shifted the hours later on. They now open till like seven o'clock at night because they realized, well, we need to catch the people coming back from work. So we're not getting the morning guys in. People don't get bubble tea on the way into work, but people do get a bubble tea on their way home.
I had the same experience of a local coffee shop back years ago when they first arrived and they were very new in town. They were just setting up and I had that same experience because after a while they started to do special events like playing music there, like live music, Like with Pendry. And I have played improvised jazz there. You know, I've been a performer at that store and I've seen them develop professional relationships.
There was another independent operation which started up a place called Steak and Honour, who just got started by a couple of friends who bought a van to sell burgers from. And so every Friday, not every Friday, we weren't made of money, but we would go down to this coffee shop and we’d pick up this burger just from a van that parked outside the store. They had a special relationship. And now that burger van is like an actual shop in Cambridge.
See, I feel like that almost plays to the fantasy. Like Legend and Lattes is a fantasy book. Viv is an orc, Tandri is a succubus. But the real fantasy that you're enjoying here is the fantasy of having your own coffee shop. You go through every detail with Viv that you almost feel like, yeah, I'm on this journey.
And I do think, in terms of like businesses to do, I once had a business lecturer at university and he was trying to explain to us, like, the difference between like buy-in and, like, fall-out of business. And like there are some industries that are easier to buy into, but likewise, there are some industries it's easier to exit from. It's like, well, aerospace, it's very expensive. You can't just set up your own aerospace firm.
But on the other hand, you also can't just leave. Like the British government won't let BA fold because you need a British Airways. But he said a coffee shop, a big enough group of students could all plug together and just start a coffee shop. What do you need? The machine. The biggest thing is the rent on the shop, you know, actual shop floor. And then you could literally just get some old furniture, buy it from, you know, someone's house, get it second-hand and you're going.
And I think that's the fantasy that I'm buying into the idea of actually like, yeah, actually, G: It's attainable. It’s within reach. I could do that. That's the dream.
And so many people, they open restaurants and it doesn't go that well, you know, it is a really, really ruthless place. The fantasy of it going well. Yeah, it's out there. It's a far-out goal. But when you see it happen in the book, it just it's soothing.
It is. And I think then I don't know why I'm leaving on this message. It makes me then think of my local bubble tea place. And I think how like big coffee brands like Starbucks and Costa like dominate. I'm like, don't take the bubble tea. Like if you take anything away from this book, it's going to be this renewed passion to be like, yeah, I will support my local. I will go and I'll go to my local bubble tea and I'll get one there to keep that kind of dream alive.
Duncan, a big part of this book, it cannot be understated, is just about how great coffee is. Large sections taken of seeing people drink it the first time and enjoying it, of having its aroma and its flavor explained and appreciated. I fucking hate coffee.
[Disgusted] Right. So that's the end of the episode everyone. It's been a pleasure. I don't think we'll ever be back. So good day to you all.
And I've been your host, Geordie Bailey. No, we have to go to what we're reading next week.
Geordie, I mean, I understand. I don't relate. I think coffee is a beautiful drink that can have so many different depths and approaches. Very recently, a work colleague shared with me, we hadn't really spoken a lot, but we were in the little foodery bit at the back of the office, waiting for the kettle to boil because a hot water bloomin’ tap broke, honestly. And, you know, you just we bonded over talking about coffee.
And then the next week he came in and he brought me a little thing of instant Turkish coffee to have. And it has such a much more like earthy flavor to it than what I was drinking, which is a bit more acidic in its kind of taste. And I love how a drink can like bring people together and can be a conversation starter. I can't believe you're saying you just don't like it. That's fine. That's why tea exists for all the odd people. G: I don't drink tea either.
[exasperated] Hot chocolate? G: I love hot chocolate! Hey! G: I can't believe coffee fans.
Listen, aside from maybe wine tasters, no one else gets so fixed on this one drink and its different flavors, you know, like imagine gymbros talking about their favorite protein shakes and not like, oh, man, you need to get that 0.8 gram per pound. Just talking about like: [gym bro voice] “yeah, man, I like to mix in a little bit of Ph.D. with a little bit of Smarty.”
“That's how I like to do it. You know, I feel like it gives it a fine, earthy mix to it, you know, a little bit of strawberry on top of it as well.” “Like that. [Chef’s kiss] That really brings it together, bro.” [Duncan laughs]
I do appreciate that. And I was even going to say that I think it's a shame because I think it's a shame that people don't talk about like hot chocolate as much in the same vein. I think that deserves the same level of, like, appreciation. This is a bit out maybe off topic, but did you know that PG Tips, one of the biggest tea brands in the UK, they don't have, like, it's not a leaf that defines their flavor. It's not like a recipe.
Every time they get in like a new batch of products, they literally just have a room of 20 guys and presumably girls as well, who just know what PG Tips tea tastes like. And every time they get in a new batch, they have to adjust all the ratios to be like, yeah, that's right. G: That's weird. That's weird. I mean, I guess that's how a lot of stuff's done. But yeah, it's just 20 people who are just like, yeah, we know what the flavor is.
And I know it's not the same with coffee, but I think you do get similar vibes. Like, yeah, some people just know what it's meant to taste like and everyone can it differently And that's where the conversation comes from. Geordie, I think we've talked about this enough. I just want to come to the final question. Did you like this book? G: Oh, yes, I liked it a lot.
I have already. It's so nice and relaxing that I have just put it on the beginning chapters on in the evening before I go to bed just to cool down.
I equally thought this is an incredible book that really took me by surprise. I have not revelled in the fantasy of being, like, just being in the space of the story for such a long time. Like, I enjoyed reading The Worm and His Kings. I didn't want to be there. No, it would be horrific. And even more like traditional epic fantasy. Like, I don't want to be the hero. I know that would be terrifying.
It's a different sort of escapism, for sure. You know, it's not just about being the daring and bold hero, ala, you know, the Never Ending Story. It's about living a fulfilling and exciting life in a much more mundane way. Being successful, not just in terms of finances, but also in terms of the people in your life.
I was going to make a horrible joke there about being like an equally unattainable fantasy, but no, seek that dream. This book really did resonate with me and it's hard because normally at this point we turn to like recommendations.
I really find it hard to... I mentioned earlier about like Terry Pratchett as like the only vague measuring stick I could use, but I genuinely do just feel if you've listened to this and think you would be interested, I think it's worth the risk of buying this book, you know, you might not like it. I'm sorry if you don't, but if you think you will, then I think there's a high enough chance that you're right and you should give it a go.
For sure, for sure. I would recommend this to a lot of people who just want a low stakes affair.
Will we have for our next episode a book equally as chilling and relaxing as this one? It will be our final book of the year.
What I can promise you is that there is a very important connection. There will be lots of scenes of people describing food and how it tastes.
Game of Thrones.
Fewer trenchers, fewer trenchers full of gravy. No, no, Duncan, what I'm talking about is The Chronicles of Narnia, The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe.
Christmassy vibes.
Last year, last year we did Hogfather and I said it would be our only ever Christmas episode because it's the only Christmas themed fantasy novel. And then halfway through the year I went: wait a second, I know another fairy tale, another fantasy story that takes place at Christmas and which Christmas is a very important aspect of the story because Santa just shows up for some reason. And it's this one: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe.
I have read this book only once before but I don't actually know that long ago, probably only about two years ago now. But I'm very happy to dive back into it again and work with you. Is this a childhood favourite?
Oh yes, absolutely. I had it on tape, like a physical tape which I had to turn over and to prepare for this episode knowing what I was going to pick, I downloaded an audiobook specifically and it is the exact same recording that I listened to when I was a kid. So I'm going to be having some astounding nostalgic vibes over the next couple of weeks.
Well I'm looking forward to revisiting it with you. But Geordie, I've got to say to everyone that's listening, if you have read Legend and Lattes and have an opinion that differs to ours, or agree, I don't mind, please do agree, but if you differ, I kind of do want to get into it with people who maybe didn't vibe with it as much, then please do reach out to us and follow us on our Instagram, Is This Just Fantasy Podcast.
We put up notifications there when a new episode releases as well as a bunch of extra content. Please follow us there. If you want to get a hold of us a bit more directly, you can always email us at [email protected]. Another great way to reach out.
I've been your host Geordie Bailey. D: I've been your other host Duncan Nicoll.
Until next time. Bye! G: So long!