Hello and welcome to another episode of Is This Just Fantasy, the podcast where every other week two nerds get together to rate, read and review a fantasy novel. I'm your host, Geordie Bailey. And I'm his surprisingly cute alien dog, Duncan Nichol. Duncan, there were so many things you could have gone for there. Why did you do that one? Because I love the character of Woola. And if you ever see the Disney film, it's just ace.
I gotta say, Duncan, I did mean to watch the Disney version of John Carter in advance of this episode, but I did not manage to find the time, so I apologise for that. You are most certainly forgiven. But yes, that's what we're talking about today. Princess of Mars is the first John Carter book by famed author Edgar Rice Burroughs, written in, well, I'm not quite sure when written, but first published as a novel in February 1912?
Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, actually, you make a good point there, because I was having a quick scan of a Wikipedia article, and unsurprisingly, this was an originally serialized series. Yes, it was. I believe it's called Under the Moons of Mars was like the original title. And then when it got compiled together, it got renamed. Well, I think I actually went through a couple
of names. From what I can see, Edgar Burroughs was like just throwing different versions at his publisher and just been like, come on, which one? I don't care. Just pick one. Yeah, that's like me when I'm trying to do SEO for this podcast. Oh, thanks for that. But yes, this is actually a really interesting one. Obviously, Edgar Burroughs. for people not aware, most famous character is Tarzan. Tarzan of the Apes. He wrote that after John Carter. Same year, 1912. I believe it's
around October time. He kicked out the first Tarzan novel. I don't need to explain Tarzan. But yeah, he's a famed writer of very pulpy... fantasy, science fiction, you know, good for doing like swashbuckling adventurers. And as fans of swashbuckling pulpy adventures, especially Robert E. Howard, and then later, of course, we have Michael Moorcock and Elric of Menibone,
this really seems to be up our alley. it certainly does and what's often talked about when people talk about John carter particularly the dialogue around the disney movie that came out is a lot of people kind of go this is the story that originated so many ideas that looking at it now it almost seems derivative it's sort of that same i think dragon ball z is probably something that's suffered all dragon ball it's something that suffered the same kind of fate it like pioneered so much
that so many people copied It almost seems, I don't know, a bit more mundane or by the numbers by modern standards. Yeah, totally. That's a good comparison, I feel. So before we jump into Princess of Mars, though, Geordie, has there been anything else fantasy or not fantasy related that you have been reading, watching, experiencing that you just want to share with us? I don't think I've been reading anything else. It's been a pretty busy period of time for me. I have been
to see a fair few movies. I really, really like seeing Sinners. Duncan, have you seen that? No, I have not. I highly recommend it. I really, highly recommend it. It's best... The best experience you can have is to go into it with absolutely no idea what it's about. So, Duncan, dear listeners, trust me, it's really good. The acting is stellar. The sound design is great. A lot of amazing performances. The singing is surprisingly amazing. You really
don't see that coming. Fantastic. Is it a musical? I highly recommend. It's not a musical. It's about musicians. Okay. Oh, that sounds interesting. Yeah, I will definitely. I don't know why. I think when I heard the title, when you just said the title, I just assumed, is it some sort of like B -list horror? But no, you don't want to tell me. Except that it's great. Contractually abound to not tell you shit about it. The only other thing I really experienced in that time
was after I saw that. Actually, I guess I have another thing. My girlfriend and I went to see Thunderbolts, the newest Marvel movie. I haven't seen a Marvel movie in years at this point. Saw it. I'm surprised by how much I liked it. I was like, hey, this is actually pretty fun. But whilst I was in the cinema, I was like, what the hell
is that? And I saw a poster. to demonstrate that they were putting on the filmed version of Bonnie and Clyde the Musical, with Jeremy Jordan and, oh, I forget her name, something, I'll enter
her name here, Frances Maylee McCann. uh who is a lady who i keep seeing in stuff by accident and i think is really good i first saw her as misa misa in the one like two night production of death note the musical so weirdly niche stuff but i was like oh my god i have to go see this i've wanted to see this for years i i it's really outside my wheelhouse musicals based on real life criminals but if that's your thing i hope you enjoy it i don't know why i have that's even
worth mentioning after that i finished babylon's ashes last time i spoke about it i was partly through the book so concluding thoughts i think it may be my least favorite expanse novel yet so nine out of ten would recommend did you not like the ending i felt that the ending It was a very interesting lean -in. So the ending of Babylon on Ashes, it ties up a plot point that was in the previous book. And it definitely gave me this sensation. Geordi, tell me if you had
this when you read it. So sixth book in the Expanse series, very closely linked to the preceding book, Nemesis Games. It felt like the authors, when they sat down, the dual authors that do Expanse, they had an idea that was actually meant to be like one book. And then they realised, oh, this is actually like a book and a half worth of narrative. And then they went, well, we might as well make it two books. Yeah, yeah, that's fair enough. I probably might be close to what
happened there. I liked Babylon's Ashes, but certainly compared to all the other Expanse books, and not to say this book is slow or sluggish, but it has the most content in there that doesn't directly drive the core plot. There are bits in here which are world -building, which are great character scenes, but I certainly felt it had the most strenuous parts, but nicely spaced. It wasn't like one character, well, maybe one
character. There's a character called Prax, who comes back from a previous book, who, again, I loved his chapters. Didn't need to be there. Oh, yeah. Oh, but I like those chapters. I remembered them now. Same. I like them. This is the thing.
I liked... everything i like the slower moments when they're all sat in a bar or getting a bowl of coffee but i certainly felt like this book had more of those scenes than any of the preceding books and and that's where i'm like if i had to rank it it's my least favorite expanse book so far still an amazing book there you go now duncan it's good that you've been on a sci -fi kick and i've been on a nebulous gap between fantasy and science fiction, because we're back
in a familiar wheelhouse. We've picked something, well, you picked something, that could arguably be called science fiction. Duncan, would you like to explain to me why is John Carter, and more specifically, A Princess of Mars, why is this not a sci -fi book? Why is this science
fantasy? That is a good question. Now, if you go back to our previous episodes on like Dune or something like Star Wars, I always sort of argue that if you can take your sci -fi world and roll back the clock and you arrive at something fundamentally our reality, then I give that the sci -fi. And if you roll it back and it's still
not, then I say fantasy. Now, this one's a bit more interesting because the only real out there bits are the fact there are aliens on Mars, which is a perfectly reasonable sci -fi thing to throw out there. Yeah. Why do I say fantasy? I say fantasy because Princess of Mars takes such a loose handle on every sci -fi concept and refuses or just has this complete disinterest in explaining any of it. Every bit of alien technology might
as well be magic. Just completely. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to say because at a certain point, where do you draw the line of, I understand that, like, They have flying machines in this, and it's explained that there's an eighth color, basically, in the spectrum of light, and they use that. It comes from the sun, it bounces off the surface of the planet, and then their planes, like, ride on the reflected rays of this eighth light. And on one hand, you're like, is this
just... It is... The idea that there are more spectrums of light than the eye can see, so revolutionary and new that this feels like it's just one additional step? Or is this, like, really just going way beyond into the realm of magic? Because, Duncan, and I have to be frank, I'm not completely convinced this is fantasy. Okay, there are some major points we could look at. Look, how does John Carter get to Mars? He does turn into a ghost. That's true. And that's the main one. That's the main
one. It's the sticker. It's a big sticker. It is a big sticker. The reason why when I'm going through this is that because it's talking so much about canals on Mars and cities on Mars and pyramids on Mars, this reminds me so much of, Middle of the 20th century, pretty standard sci -fi adventures like Journey Into Space, a BBC radio show I listened to pretty religiously
when I was a teenager. It's so familiar to me where they have the emphasis on telepathy and the difference in gravity on the different planets and how that would affect people. This obsession with canals on Mars. It all felt very familiar to ideas I'd seen explored in later, definitively, sci -fi properties. Does the main character pick up a sword and rescue a princess? I don't think that's exclusively not a thing that can happen in a sci -fi, but I understand. Yes, that's a
very fantastic thing. I appreciate this is probably more tenuous. than some of my other claims, but certainly the trappings and the pacing and the themes of this novel would fit so neatly into a fantasy setting. It's just the vibe, and I'm prepared to take people's arguments on this, but I'm almost going to be a bit blasé and like, yeah, but guys, come on. Telepathy is magic. Telepathy is pretty standard sci -fi. But Duncan, here's the thing. I don't even disagree with
you. It's definitely, in my opinion, the most tenuous. And that's including Dune, which became fantasy because of a loophole. I think this is the most tenuous, but you're right. I would still call it fantasy. Science fantasy feels like the appropriate place to give it this. Because it's about a princess, and he does turn into a ghost. That's absolutely awesome. I'm glad we're on the same page. But yes, Princess of Mars. You
talked about the colour, by the way. A lot of people, I think, hear that, and often you might be thinking, oh, yeah, well, that's like Colour Our Space. That's all H .P. Lovecraft. Yeah. Bear in mind, 1912, we predate that. This is pre -Lovecraft. This is pre -Robert E. Howard. Like, Pulps are still a big thing, but this is very much the early days before the big hitters that come in just at the end of the era. Not that they hadn't been around for ages. In fact,
we're not doing some research for this. I found
an amazing quote. from Burroughs so apparently he said this in 1929 so quite a while later he's been smashing out these novels for nearly two decades so get a load of this it is amazing this is Burroughs talking about why he started becoming a pulp fiction writer if people were paid for writing rot such as i read in some of these magazines that i could write stories just as rotten As a matter of fact, although I had never written a story, I knew absolutely that I could write
stories just as entertaining and probably a whole lot more so than any I chance to read in those magazines. That's amazing. It's like a dark version of Watership Down where he was like, I could write a book better than this. And his daughter was like, well, I wish you'd go on and just do it then instead of just talking about it. There's something just inspirational being like, these books are awful. And people are paying for them. I could do this. Duncan, I genuinely think that
all the time. It's in the back of my head at least like a quarter of the books we do on this podcast. Then again, another quarter on the books in this podcast make me go, I will never be a success. Oh my God, I can't write this well. What the fuck? But always remember, quality in writing and financial success are, as far as I can tell, tenuously related at best. They just occasionally accidentally walk in the same direction
as one another. Speaking of writing quality, I'm someone who's enjoyed Edgar Rice Burroughs stuff before. Duncan, I told you that I started reading Tarzan. And I really liked it. I didn't even get up to like the adventure bits. I was still with his parents on a boat dealing with mutineers getting abandoned in Africa. I didn't even meet Tarzan yet. I was having a great time. Same, Geordie. I have read the first five Tarzan novels, I think. Yeah, up to... Oh, I can't remember.
I've got to call it Jewels of Galore then. No, that's a coner, sorry. So like the Opal City of Opar. Jewels of Opar. Is that the one where he journeys into the hollow Earth in order to rescue the Kaiser? No, that's Tarzan at the centre of the Earth or something ridiculous. Oh, silly me. To go alongside Tarzan and the Foreign Legion and Tarzan and something like Tarzan and the Ant -Men at one point. Hell yes. It goes cray -cray. But you're right, I love Tarzan too. Have
you any read the first one then? I haven't even finished the first one. I've read like the first third of the first one. Finish it. The first Tarzan, again, there is some common issues in Tarzan which come over to Princess of Mars, namely sensibilities. Racism. But they are such well -written adventure stories. And I highly recommend them, particularly those sort of first five or
six I hear very good things about. There's a common complaint that as it goes on, it's very clear that Burroughs is just writing because he... makes money that way no no how could he do this but starting out gorgeous wow i feel like we've got to talk about princess of mars now yeah i really am excited to do this but i'm also a little nervous i should say that i have read this book previously and overall i enjoyed it But unlike Tarzan, I didn't feel compelled
to go on and read the series more extensively. That said, I am a big fan of the comic book adaptations. There's been an ongoing comic book since like 2010. And I really like that. One, because I think this story has great visual flair that lends itself well to comics. And also, it's nice because then once the stories are being tweaked for, say, 2010 sensibilities, I found I could enjoy them a lot more. Geordi, am I beating about the bush enough? I understand what you're putting
down, Dunk. I gotta say, I did not like this book. Yeah. And I feel like... I understand you were saying you were feeling nervous. And I feel like I almost have to apologize because everything really is set up for me to like it. I like Conan. I like silly, pulpy adventures. I mentioned Journey Into Space, which is another pulpy radio show all about heading to Mars and having adventures there. The Pyramids of Mars is a classic Doctor Who adventure, which I like the radio version
of. I haven't seen it, the TV version. And yet, I really didn't like this at all. I liked fractions of it. There were little glimmers sometimes. But we had to delay this episode. And that's good, because I finished this, like, half an hour ago. And I was really gritting my teeth to get through the end. Oh. Oh, that is some harsh words. But something I think, you know,
is great when we differ somewhat. And to be honest with you... i get the sense i get the bubbling feeling that a lot of the complaints i think you might throw up i'm not going to stand here and try and defend i'm going to go yeah it's going to be a bit like one of those um a bit like straight raises cure again you're going to throw complaints at me i'm going to go yeah but i just kind of like this bit i just kind of like it anyway i get that and i definitely
understand why someone would like this book why someone would be taken away by the adventure because at the end of the day the thing that put me off this book didn't have anything to do with it offending my sensibilities i'm actually surprised by how considering everything i know about the author and about the main character's previous occupation i was kind of expecting to be more racist and i was like huh this is just like you know it's so casual this you'd think
this was written in the 1930s instead of the tens what what a compliment And you're quite right. Okay, so let's dive into this. Because I think I want to talk about these sorts of issues regarding racism, like, up front, and then kind of talk more about the story and the adventure elements kind of afterwards. So, big thing that hangs over this novel, and adaptations and modern sensibilities, our main character, he is an American Civil War veteran. A veteran, you say? What side
do you reckon he represents? Uh, well, he's a good guy, so presumably he fought on the side of the good guys, right? Well, I wanted to make a comment or a joke then, but that depends how you look at it. It does not. There's a pretty definitive answer. I know who the bad guys in the Civil War were, and I hope there's not too much confusion in the listeners of our podcast. If there are... And I have met real life people who said to me in person that the Civil War had
nothing to do with slavery. You're a fucking idiot. And don't listen to my podcast, but also give us five stars before you don't let the door hit you on the way out. Yes. So John Carter is a former Confederate soldier. Now, I can only speak for how this subject matter is broached in Britain. In Britain's education system, it's very clearly taught. And also anyone who kind of thinks things like slavery are wrong, which I do. I do think it's wrong. Thank you, Duncan.
These are the bad guys. These are definitely the bad guys in the conflict. And it's very confusing why you would set him up as your hero. What really confused me is I did a bit of background. So Burr's father was a Civil War veteran. Sure. What side do you reckon he fought on? From the way you're framing this, I'm assuming that he fought for the Union, the North. Yes, he did.
Yeah. So confusing. Well, it goes to show, I mean, for one thing, we should bear in mind is that obviously Burroughs is writing for the sake of telling an exciting and compelling story. So it makes some sense that he would lean into this. a historical nostalgia for the American
South because it appeals to people. There's a very, very deliberate, a deliberate propaganda attempt after the war to re -contextualize the Southern War as a, we know it's to be anything except about the right of slaveholders to keep slaves, even though that was, I can't, it has to come to this enough. It's just a historical to say otherwise. That's why the war happened.
to make it into a heroic struggle. You get Gone with the Wind, you get plenty of these stories where former Confederates get to be these plucky renegade heroes. This happens a lot in Westerns. But over time, what you notice is the former soldiers of the Confederate states, they keep showing up. There's a YouTube video out there about the weirdly large number of former Confederate soldier vampires there are in fiction. What you notice is that these are decidedly anti -heroes.
These are people who have done things wrong in the past and maybe want to do better. The main
character in The Searchers, for example. is a former confederate soldier and that's a bad thing like the movie is aware that this is a dark mark against his soul the rest of the movie is about just how bad is this guy ethan that's his name i've got it and it's something that kind of adaptations have often tried to kind of wrestle with or smooth off talking about the comic book version i reread the opening of that comic and geordie it is really painful how they try and like I don't know, make
this more palatable. And they genuinely write in a scene at the start of the story where John Carter gets into a bar fight with ex -Union soldiers. And they point to him and call him out for basically fighting for slavery. And John Carter genuinely has a line where he's like, well, I don't know nothing about that. But when Virginia calls me to fight, I answer the call. And I'm like, oh, wow. That's disgusting. And what? What is relevant there is the valorization of his Southern identity.
Now, I'm not going to go out and say that, you know, taking pride in being from the American South is automatically like a racist dog whistle. There are some people who would use it that way. But I lived in North Carolina for a time. I met a lot of really good North Carolinians who had pride in being from North Carolina. I'm not going to be someone who paints with a brush to say that that's wrong to have pride in being a Southerner.
However, the way in which this is framed in the story is as though being from Virginia is like being an Arthurian knight. I think that's one comparison to make. I hadn't thought about it that way myself, but you're right. It's sort of given this sense of, like, lost glory. Exactly. There's an important word. in American culture, which is Antebellum. I'm explaining this because Americans don't need this explained, but we are
a mostly British podcast, so I will say so. Antebellum means before the war period, and it is a great deal of nostalgia in American literature and American culture for this period as a halcyon days. Essentially, before things got complicated. Because guess what? Things are a lot simpler when you get to have an underclass of people from a different race who just have to do as you're told. I mean, yikes. I mean, obviously, it's not like I'm trying to, I'm going to shy
away from my own national history. Britain, lots of bad things there. But I think it's important that you don't have to be actively proud of those dark bits. I think what comes across more confusing. Yeah. And obviously there's loads of comparisons to that. I work in a school, and today I was doing exam supervision. That's when you have students who have two clashing exams, and in between those exams they need to be sequestered so they don't interact with other students who've
already completed the exam. And whilst this was happening, I was listening to a couple of students in the room. have a fiery but completely anemic debate about whether England has culture. One person was fierily arguing that England has no culture, and one person was fierily but very
incompetently arguing that yes, it does. And the struggle they were coming up with was the one person who was defending the idea that England has culture, which obviously it does, they felt too uncomfortable to actually stand behind the idea that england has positive traits that you can be culturally proud of because for some reason that would be like that would be offensive that would be wrong that would be jingoistic okay um firstly i do have deep nostalgia for being
able to debate when i was younger and i used to think i used to be fiery in debates what happened and i was like you got smart enough not to open your mouth until you knew what you were saying i was like oh yeah that's what helps me back these days but i think it's important to recognize that every culture is a bit complicated and everyone has mixes of good and bad And it's just OK to exemplify these are the traits that I think are
positive. And because of that, I'm going to leave my life in a way to aspire to the positive traits and go, yeah, historically, people from the same geographical area as me did some bad things. They were bad for that. All that is to say. Sorry, don't go ahead. And I think what's really kind of interesting, as I said, we're getting to the 30 minute mark in this episode. It's so weird because there's so much connotation and so much loading that I feel like I need to unpick with
this. Despite the fact that as soon as John goes off to Mars... Not really relevant. Or really touched on. Yes, exactly. He's removed from the complicatedness of living in a world where he has to pick between... you know, sides that the reader actually has to relate to. It's significant to me that when we introduced to him in the story, he's not in the East. He's not in the areas that people were fighting over. He's gone out West.
That's a classic thing you see Confederate veterans doing in fiction about the post -Civil War period. And what's his first interactions with? It's... But it's interactions with one of a white guy and then being attacked by Apaches. He's chased off. They are shown in the exact way you would expect Native Americans to be depicted in this time period. It's extremely dehumanized. He is sort of killed, but he's not really. He turns into a ghost. He's teleported to Mars. And now
he gets to be in a new Civil War. which he gets to hash out in the fantasy of what if civil war could have been could have been ended by one guy being really really good at jumping I was wondering when you were building to that. I was like, being really, really good at fighting, being really, really strong. Yeah, no, you're right. Being really, really good at jumping. He is at it like Frogger, like the early Superman that he is. And I can see why this appealed,
why this solved. Let's take something really complicated. And now let's just have a heroic fantasy where we do Civil War Part 2, except everyone's completely alien colours. Oh yeah, the reds and the greens. So it's less complicated. Let's give a brief overview. Let's give a brief overview of what is the rest of the story about. We've introduced John Carter. We've introduced his entire personality, which is that he's from
Virginia and he's really happy about that. And let's actually say, what is it actually about? Because... I really can't believe how much is crammed into this book. In one way, you could say, well, this is great. Classic pulpy stuff. It goes from adventure to adventure to adventure. That's good, right? To me, it's more like when you're not used to a new car and it's kind of herky -jerky. It's like, adventure and stop. Adventure and stop. Adventure and stop. Well,
there's some intense noises there. I hope you're all right. I'm okay. Yes, it is. A log is crammed in. So, to give a very quick overview, when John Carter first arrives on Mars, the first interaction he has is with the Thark tribe of Green Martians. These guys are big. Thark. Oh, Duncan, what's your language? One of many tribes on the planet of the Green Martian type. These guys are big. They are multi -armed. They've got tusks. They are the orcs from Warcraft, except with some
extra limbs. Just through and through. Orcs from Warcraft are tharks with limbs removed. You get the influence there. They're all about war. They're all about fighting. So John Carter fits right in because he's super strong. And they're like, come. He meets his local friend, a guy called Tars Tarkas, who he sort of has this... I'm starting to do a comparison. It's like the Eternal Champion from Moorcock. He's his companion. Like, he's the buddy. He's going to explain things a bit.
They're both warriors. They see eye to eye. Yeah, this character serves to give us a very roguish compatriot. So this is someone who, by like human metrics and morality, would be completely abominable. But in a fantastical fun space, someone who's basically like addicted to war or an honorable contract or combat, is someone who's kind of fun to have as a sidekick or potential evil villain who can be redeemed. And I actually think Tars... I've got this right. I've literally just said
it. Tars Tarkas is fun if he's not particularly deep. Like, he's fine for what he does. I wasn't aware that he really had a personality. He is used, in a way, in the novel. He's a good chess piece, right? To keep going the flyover, then we basically get all these sort of... mini kind of adventures. There's a Colosseum -esque scene. So boring. There's a bit of cultural integration. And there's basically a bit of like he kills a guy and then he takes on everything he had.
Element Dune -esque. A little inspiration there. Did you, Frank Herbert? Did you like this? That's true, yeah. This goes on until he bumps into Dejah Thoris. Who has been captured by the greens. And she is the princess of Mars. And she is beautiful. And. I'm not sure what other traits. Boris gave her other than being beautiful. Probably did. She's in a lot of comic books. She's been characterised. After the fact as like. A very feisty warrior swordswoman. In the first book. Not so much.
That does not come across. When you described her in a previous episode, when you were reading the comic book, to say she's like a sword and sorcery kind of character, I really expected her to be more than just this incredibly meek little kitten, which is what she is in this book. Dejah Forrest, again, Sans personality. She is the princess in the tower. She is... I don't need to explain a single thing about her character.
She's... duty bound and she's like oh no i must do this for my people uh i cannot be with you john carter despite how handsome and lovely you are because my people need me to blah blah blah blah blah writing female characters is not this dude's strong point writing male characters isn't really a strong point actually either but going on from this point we essentially get a rescue attempt to free deja thoris and return her to her people and then some weird politicking comes
up there's this other city state of like red martians called zodanga who are enemies of yeah of the princess of mars city state which is helium they fight back and forth a bit John Carter wins. He beats Onganga. Then, literally, we speed through. I'm sorry, it might sound like I'm going fast. This is the novel. I feel like I've just got to get it all out. Then he beats those people. And the Judge of Thought is just like, I can be with you here. Let us be together as sexy
friends. Then she lays an egg for him. And then... Yeah. There's a... And then... Disaster. So Mars is a dying world and they have these like... Duncan? Yes? You missed out on a very important detail. You talked about how it really whizzes by fast because ten years pass. Honestly... In a chapter. Yep. He has ten years of fun times together. I assumed, Duncan, when I read this bit, I was like, okay, okay, I get it. This is supposed to be like an open and shut story. It
begins, it ends, that's it. Then the character is very popular, and then he would use this 10 -year period to have more adventures on Mars. Okay, so we know that John Carter arrives, he has adventures, he marries DJ Forrest, and then they have 10 years of adventures together, and then the planet dies, and he goes home. Weirdly not the case. Because what I assume is those 10 years would be used to be like, ah, the further adventures of John Carter. What was he up to
in the meantime? No, not the thing. Some comic books do do that. There's quite a few that are set in that mid -call era. But most of the stories push forward because John Carter's son isn't a character in this first book, but he is in later stories. So... Oh, yeah, there are a few comics that also fill in the gap for, again, 100 years later. Do you know what? I've only just said that for the first time. The comic book series that I love so much was written 100
years after the novel. That's crazy time. Which makes sense because that's when it's entered the public domain, right? That does, mate. I think we'd have done it a little bit earlier, but not by much, maybe 15 years earlier. I think there was 85 years on these. It's a bit weird. Fingers crossed, guys, by the way. Tracking what goes into the public domain is so much fun. We're nearly there with Conan. We're nearly there. Well, it's already public domain in Europe. Oh,
yeah. Because we have sensible laws. I was meant to mention this at the very beginning of the episode, by the way. I did read something else which wasn't mentioned. Do you know what? I'm
just going to drop it in here. Oh? I read a European... out of copyright comic book starring the characters bailet and valeria from the conan universe as like a um a dual team whatever you call that okay duo dynamic duo and it was amazingly overwritten and underwritten and appallingly bad and fabulously stupid just incredible only ran for like five issues It is not getting a follow -up despite ending on a cliffhanger. It has Baylet getting resurrected from when she dies at the end of
the Conan stories. Oh, no. Then, instead of, like, any thoughts about Conan, she basically is angry that she's been brought back from the dead and is trying to find the sorcerer or whatever that did it. And in the first story, she literally just walks into a tavern and is like, right, I want to have sex with the most vigorous man
here. who's up for it it is atrocious followed by just it is so over sexualized at the same time not sexy at all and it's like the plot has no thought into it yet every page is crammed full of speech bubbles i'm like how have you got so much dialogue into this sword and sorcery tale that achieves next to nothing duncan can i make a humble request of you Go ahead. Please do not pick this comic book series for a future episode, no matter how much I annoy you at any
point. Don't worry, Geordie. I've got way more painful stuff stored in the backlog for that. But yes, back to Princess of Mars. And yes, and then the book ends. The atmospheric factories that produce air for Mars. Mars is a dying planet, remember. The oceans have dried up. The canals
are starting to go dry. Air is running out. They start to malfunction and John Carter, just about, everyone's getting dizzy, he's running to the factory, he uses his weird psychic ability he got taught earlier, he opens the doors, he's just got to get inside and like pull the lever to save the planet. But then he falls unconscious in the doorway. He never makes it. And then he opens his eyes, back in a cave on Earth, staring
up at a red planet. The end? It would be so emotionally moving if I cared about any of these characters. I say the end. There is actually a framing narrative in this book of, I think it's meant to be Burroughs talking about his fictional Uncle Jack, who's meant to be John Carter. Yes! I really like that. Yes, it is like he is telling us the story from the diary, like the personal autobiography that his uncle left behind. It's very, it's very, it's bold. I like that move. I think it's really
interesting. I think he does something kind of similar in Tarzan, doesn't he? The diary entries. That's definitely something that comes up in
Tarzan a lot. is we're hearing about what happened in the past to a character i don't think he placed himself as right yes i remember i remember because tarzan has a famous opening line that's like uh i couldn't believe how incredible this story is if i had not heard it from like a less i wouldn't have believed how crazy the story is if i heard it from like a less reliable source something like that it's like the author the writer of Tarzan is interviewing someone who met Tarzan
at a certain point and is relaying his adventures through like a series of like you know like a game of telephone yes and just like telephone they just get exaggerated every single time they get retold what I will say is I do like this in this framing device and I particularly feel like if you read this in the context of like a pulp magazine this would have worked this yummed this up really fun and we basically find out from this narrative that john carter has built
himself like a custom tomb that he's going to go and lie in and like this is how he hopes to ghost himself back to mars again not explain the details in fact if you watch the disney movie they basically give him like a magical amulet that he finds in the cave and that's just how it happened this is just out of nowhere so that's the plot might as well just rub a genie's lamp you know Might as well. Or just a literal portal.
Or anything, actually. Other than just falling unconscious and having an out -of -body experience. It almost makes you think, was this all just a hallucination of John's? Did he just hit his head on a rock and go, I imagined it was the Civil War, but I was a hero and this really hot woman just wanted to be with me. It's like, sure thing, John. Calm down. Duncan. Can I ask you, what about this story do you find compelling
and exciting, such that you like it? Because we've ragged on it a lot, but I really want to hear what you like. Okay, I like the man that can jump a tall building in a single bound, that has super strength, that has laser pistols and a sword. And it's hard to pin down individual scenes. I do think the final fighter, like Zongdanga, is really fun. I like just on the weird and wonderful elements of the world. Like, I know I harped on sort of negatively about the flying machines,
but, you know, they're still cool. I like this idea of these things with, like, these great sails that, like, spread out, but, like, facing the ground to catch the rays as uplift. I like hearing about some of these Martian cultures. I enjoy the fact that the greens, like, lay all their eggs in, like, a hatchery, like, bury them in the ground, and then they come and, like,
dig them up later. I enjoyed that there were a few scenes that I enjoyed that actually I thought did have a little bit more, I don't know what to put the phrase, tender loving care. I enjoyed the scenes with the character of Sola, who's the daughter of Tars Tarkas. She teaches him the language of Barsoom. Oh, Mars is called Barsoom on their planet. Isn't it called Barsoom? Yes, you're right, it is Barsoom. It's Barsoomium
is the language. um there was some cool you know i liked a little bit of intrigue about her history of her parents i that was okay that felt like a sort of right out of like a dramatic victorian story where like it's just like and now time for a little a little mini story within a story i always felt that have you ever read uh northanger abbey by jane austen i have not there's just a mini bit in that where someone's like And they're in a carriage and someone's like, I'm now going
to tell you a ghost story. And then you literally get a chapter that's basically just a mini ghost story. Like, she wrote a short story. Just because Jane Austen had an idea. Yeah, I know. It's like, I need to just cram this in somewhere. Best chapter in the book. But anyway. We can do that for Halloween. Oh, I love that. Jane Austen for Halloween. What an off -focus thing to be. So I enjoy... Sorry, so I enjoy that and I generally like a bit of the world and culture building. We get reference
to Issus and the river Iss in this world. Very light, but I like seeing how this fits together and I do genuinely like the general atmosphere of Mars as this dying planet that all these great civilizations are coming to an end and there's nothing they can really do to stop it. And even in its kind of death throes, they're all still just fighting each other. So I like the vibe. But I will be honest with you, Geordi, I think I wouldn't have liked this as much if I wasn't
already a fan through comic books. So I didn't have as clear visuals. And maybe because I know a little bit more about the world building outside this first novel, then I could kind of like fill in the gaps slightly. But those are the things I like. I do think this is an interesting world to explore. And I like a Superman. Talking of Superman, John Carter's Superman before Superman. Sure, yeah, that's true. You know, he is this larger -than -life, honourable, impossibly strong
character with a very rigid moral code. He rescues damsels and distresses. That's true. That's a lot of Superman energy all in one place. He literally goes to a planet that has weaker gravity than the one he's meant for, so gets super jump and super strength. Like, that is Superman. That's true. That's true. That's the exact concept. And this was written... What do you think? What's that? Superman was 1930? 1935? Ish? Early 1930s, I think. So, we're literally... This is 18 years
before Superman. So, the types of people who wrote Superman would have grown up on John Carter. That's true. Yeah, that's worth considering. Duncan, what I feel like I need to say now is you mentioned world building and stuff. And I think that's probably the thing I dislike the most about this story. Because I really didn't like the way information was relayed to us. I found this book extremely tiresome because it
felt like... Anytime there was going to be an adventure, it was interrupted by a prelude of an extremely vivid and lengthy description of how do the planes fly? How do the guns work? How does their language work? How do the telepathy interact with their spoken language? How are babies made? Stuff like that. And what I think really separates this, because we're talking, we're not even talking, pre -Tolkien, where it completely reinvents the idea of having extremely
vivid and deep world histories. We're talking pre -Howard. And the best thing, the best thing about world building in something like Robert E. Howard is he will say anything. He'll just say he was a Bosonian archer. He'll just say he was a giant from Hyperborea. And then he shuts up. He doesn't say a single damn thing. And he lets you decide how legitimately is this guy a giant from Hybora? Is he like six foot two and he's a giant? Is he six foot eleven and a
giant? Is he 13 feet tall? You get to make that decision. You get to make it as exciting as you want to. It sort of gets across the point of how much of a giant is he? Enough of a giant that our main character looks at him and goes, wow, he's a giant. That's all that matters. Exactly. That's what matters. We get to have a sense that there's this big, wide, magical world and we
decide how magical is it. Even something like the Tower of the Elephant, which the big culmination of the story is a lecture on personal history by an alien. Even that is full of great mysteries because it's delivered to us in a monologue. It's not delivered to us by narration where it's simply someone like taking almost research notes on the natural history of a planet. It's someone saying, I'm going to tell you all about my personal suffering. And allow you to make conjecture about
how strange a being I am. Where am I from? What are my people like? Am I magic or simply a being of high technology? And I feel quite legitimately a bit of a missed opportunity there. Particularly when Jon is a fish out of water. And we have characters like Dejah Thoris, Tars Harkus and
Sola. Who are all in positions to sort of give... this information to John I wish that had been used more because then you can just throw in little bits of characterization like if Tars Tarkas is going to sit down and talk to John about the guns then he can just throw in like you know this it's like this and I when I first went out hunting with my father you can kind of weave it in a way that feels less dumpy Yeah, or have John be given a gun in a firefight, and
then he has to figure out how to use the gun in the middle of the firefight. Like, maybe he fires one shot, goes to reload, and then, like, accidentally almost blows his head off because he didn't realise that it had not merely, like, a second round in the chamber, but another 199 rounds in the chamber. I can see how that would add a lot of fun. Do you know, Geordi, can I also just say, you mentioned... Tower of the Elephant. Have I told you that I've read the
newest Conan comic? Not the newest, newest. From Titan. The Conan and Age Unconquered. I... Duncan, to be quite honest, I struggle to keep up sometimes. Fair enough. Don't worry about it. Moving back. No, no, no. Tell me. Tell me. Well, it's a story. It's a Conan story. As they all are that I read. Where Conan goes back in time to visit King Cole. When we do this time jump, this is like the third time it's ever happened in comics. Cole, Shadow
Kingdom, listen to the episode, it's great. He runs into the elephant guy, but like 100 ,000 years earlier? In the Therian age. And the elephant guy's just like, what happened to you? I remember you from when we first met. And Conan's like, but that shouldn't work because you were previously living life. And he's like, ah. Timey -wimey, doesn't matter to me. Yes, that sounds good. Okay, I was against this at first, but that sounds
pretty good. I hope you enjoy the comic. Okay, so I've explained why I found a lot of aspects of this book quite dry. At the end of the day, you made a very good point at the start. This book is so influential and so early in the world of fantasy that a lot of the stuff in it feels quite rote. I'm not compelled by the relationship
between... John Carter and J .J. Thoris because I've seen much better versions of much more interesting, much feistier princesses meet up with much more interesting, less one -note rogue anti -heroes. I'm not as impressed by the... The idea is being put forward by the sci -fi aspects of the world because I've seen those ideas explored and extrapolated
upon later. I'm not convinced or persuaded by the racial politics of the book because it exists in a extremely alien world to me of being from the early 20th century where it's just fine to have a race of red people and a race of... green people, and oh, why can't they get along if only there was a man who jumps good to unite them?
Just want to throw out there. You know, I said all that, but actually I just realised that the racial politics of that are at least as up -to -date and, you know, cogent as children of Anakin anguish. Wow. I mean, quite possibly. At least I do actually have a bit of respect for Burroughs. If nothing does this well, But to approach the matter of race and go, right, I'm not going to write full on about this matter, but let's just
recast it. Let's take a real world issue, put it in a sci -fi setting so you can explore it with a bit more of a blunted edge. Conceptually... Sure, you're talking about Star Trek. Yeah, exactly. It's the same ideas of transposing our current or social issues to a sci -fi setting. to help with the exploration and often ease the exploration. Not that Brothers does it amazingly, but it's the same seed. You're like, yes, there's something here that will one day blossom. Yes, exactly.
So you're talking about the same ideas that are going to be explored in Star Trek in the 1960s of doing, oh, this is the planet of the black and white people as opposed to the white and black people. and to lampoon the idea of racism. But in this book, the problem is that it's nowhere near as socially competent as that, because the big thing that happens is that the Green Martians have no ideas of love, trust, and friendship. They exist only to fight and kill. Whereas the
Red Martians are more enlightened. And they do believe in love and friendship. And what would you guess? Even though they're both Martians. Only the Red Martians. Which includes Dejah Thoris by the way. I don't think we made that clear earlier. They're referred to as humans. So we have humans and we have non -humans. And the non -humans act as savage. If somewhat noble. With a sense of primeval honour. And what would
you guess? They start to see things the same way as John Carter, who has more in common with the Red Martians, because what this is actually about is not about a divided people who need to come to peace. It's about a savage race of people who need to be tamed with the ideas of the other sect. This is about taming the West. This is about Native Americans. This is about... This is about indoctrinating Indian children into being good, moral, white -adjacent Americans.
Now, Geordie, I'm not going to stand and disagree with you, but I hadn't picked up on any of that because I'm not as well -educated, and now I'm sitting here going, oh dear God, Duncan, what have you enjoyed? Why didn't you see this? Now, here's the thing, Duncan. Here's another way I could put this. I mentioned Star Trek. What if the Green Martians aren't Indian Americans? What if they aren't Native Americans? What if they aren't the Apache who are trying to kill
John Connor at the start of a story? What if instead they're Klingon? Because Klingon are a warrior country who have a long sense of honour. And Klingon aren't really supposed to stand in for a particular race, at least not by the 80s and 90s. They're supposed to be a distinct people with their own culture. And the interesting thing about that is that when you get to something like Deep Space Nine, you just like seeing the Klingons doing their own cultural stuff. It respects
the fact that they're different. And it doesn't judge them for their backwards ideas where violence rules. It says this is a different way of doing things. They have their own sense of right and wrong. They aren't necessarily evil because of it. Who are we to judge them? Perhaps in the future books of John Carter of Mars, it takes a more tolerant, enlightened and accepting look at the green Martians. I think that would be a book I would enjoy more because it is fun to
follow characters like honourable warriors. There's a reason why The Noble Savage keeps showing up in fiction because there's a strong appeal to it. It speaks to something inside us. If only it wasn't so racist, it would be good, wholesome
fun. Um, yes. that is that is a really good kind of point for and i'm really glad that you did do that second comparison because one it allows me to keep enjoying what i enjoy without feeling too bad and i really did like how you talk about you know this could be something to explore later now just so you're aware um that that doesn't happen balls instead what burrows does is um he uh he i'm gonna call i'm gonna say jump the shark although it's about 50 years too early
for that comparison when he brings in yellow martians oh come on who live at the north pole oh but don't worry though it then turns out there's a secret race of um of white martians who have been pulling the strings oh no with a vast ancient empire of more sophisticated cities and advanced technology and they're all white skinned with blonde hair oh no oh no but then then it's revealed that these aren't the original but actually the first born martians were actually the black martians
who inhabited the moon of mars and were then the first to come to the planet And things get really weird later on. Duncan, I wish you had not told me any of that. I feel like you have knocked a significant amount of quality out of my life. The overall goodness of my life has definitely dropped like 2 % after learning that. And I hope it gets better, but there's a possibility it never will. I'm sorry. And I do want to say, I think there is... some pulpy fun to be mined
out of John Carter. It is sort of an origin point for so much. I don't want to feel like I'm bashing people who have read the whole series and enjoy it. I want you to know, everything I've just spoken about, I haven't actually read the original series. Again, I've read the whole comic book, which adapts a lot of these stories. So... I can't speak to the quality there. And I've read more Burroughs. I've read Tarzan. I enjoy his
writing. And this was his first novel. And if they get better in the more pulpy adventure way, I can still see why someone could definitely get enjoyment out of that. Oh my goodness. There is a lot that if you keep it at the most surface level, I see how you could slide by and enjoy and just go, they're just Martians. They're just different. He's just picked random colours. I'm sure they don't mean anything. Look, there are
blue ones over there. The fact that some are yellow, some are black and some are white means nothing. Maybe. Who knows? Duncan. I think some people do though. Duncan, there was a period of time. In the 1990s, where one of the main antagonists that the Justice League was fighting in DC Comics were the White Martians, who were the oppressed underclass on Mars, discriminated against by the Green Martians who stood atop.
And the White Martians were savage and evil and had to be confronted by the heroes like Wonder Woman and Superman. And that has always bemused me. that we got to a point in the 1990s where we were like, all right, yes, the oppressed underclass are evil and they must be stopped by the forces of law. Get them, Superman. Kill those white Martians. It can't be racist because the white ones are the underclass. Again, what am I trying
to say? The concept of taking... contemporary race issues and exploring them in an alien setting is a good idea. It has worked many times. What's done here is... It has failed many times as well. Yes. And this is a bit of a failure. I think we've struck several things on the head here. I think we've talked about the point that maybe this... Well, Princess of Mars, and I don't know where the series goes... This first book isn't the most rip -roaring piece of pulp you probably
will have ever read. And in fact, Bower's next novel, Tarzan of the Apes, is miles better in terms of just how it is written. I think we've also hit something in terms of the fact that, Geordi, one of your biggest complaints was about world building. And there's something we've learnt time and time again whenever we seem to really hard conflict on a novel. It's because I just have a much bigger tolerance for exposition dumps. and like, heeds our law. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's
true. And I think that's just who we are as people. It's true. I almost don't notice that. I think this book just could have been more exciting. You know, like, I remember when I was a kid, I think I was in the cinema to see How to Train Your Dragon 1. I think this might line up with the timeline. And I saw the trailer for John Carter of Mars. And the big centerpiece of this trailer was him in a gladiatorial arena. And a gigantic beast was charging him. And he had
a big rock and a chain. He was swinging around and yelling to fight this monster. So when I'm reading this book, I'm like, okay, let's see that. Let's see him fight a big monster in a big gladiatorial arena. Let's go crazy. The closest we come to that, there is a scene where he fights a big Martian ape. And that's good fun. That feels like something out of Tarzan. That feels like something out of Conan. There is a gladiatorial fight in this book. And it's really foreshadowed.
And it's astoundingly boring. There's always
a question I wonder. is this like a hangover the fact that it was turned into a novel later but you know without the exposition and i was thinking this through as i was reading it and i go no these fight scenes don't work in any context i mentioned my favorite was the one the one at the end which is more of like a big battle i think that got it up but individual one -on -one fights they're just not the most fun the way they're described i think part of it is the
fact that because john carter gets so op compared to anything in mars you just he never has like a struggle you know he's never gripping about he's never using his full weight to barely bring this beast to bay the one time he just kind of flies through the only time he the only way edgar burris edgar is burris seems to be able to show that a fight is hard is to say and we fought for an hour an hour how you didn't get tired What do you mean you fought for an hour? Were
you taking breaks? It's like a boxing match. You went for three minutes and you had a minute out. What happened? What were you doing for that hour? Are you just exchanging, like, blows? Or are you running about in circles? The scene in question where I talk about the Coliseum, it's like that. He says, like... And they sent many men against me. And all of them fell. And then they told me I had to fight my new best friend.
And we pretended to fight for an hour. And then when I sensed the crowd was getting restless, I let them stab me between my belly and my arm. And I trapped the blade there. And then they fell down and pretended to be dead. And they didn't check. And then I walked out. I just left the Coliseum. Spartacus really should have thought of that one. I love that no one was on clean -up duty. What do we do with the bodies? Leave
them there. Come on. Ah, Geordi, I mean, do you have anything else you'd like to add on Princess of Mars? I have a question. Go ahead. How's the movie? That's a good question. Thank you. Thank you for asking. So Jean -Claude's with a... That's the entire title. It was a bit of a flop. In fact, it was one of the biggest flops in cinematic history when it first came out. Watching it now, I don't think it's all about the movie. I don't think it's necessarily... It's not a terribly
bad movie. In fact, I think it does a decent job, particularly in visuals, of capturing the world and adventure. What it is... Sorry, one sec. Duncan's dying. The atmosphere is running out in his house. He needs to find the special lever to pull so he doesn't die and get sent back to his home planet. Right, where was I? The thing about the film is, it is like 30 minutes, 45, too long. The framing narrative in the novel, that probably could have been just wholesale
cut, goes on and on and on. There is so much John Carter on Earth, but not like... character building just sort of not burrows interacting with his uncle and people are after him and there's this conspiracy and more people on earth might know about mars and it just could have all been cut we just literally went like the book cave mars adventure well would have been much better but overall i think it's an okay film like you know you got disney plus They're a worse place
to kill an evening. I think it adapts the first book pretty darn well in terms of overall story. If you're a fan of the book, you'll like the film. What if I'm not a fan of the book, Duncan? Well, you might like the film a bit more. I still can't bring myself to say that I deeply dislike Princess of Mars. But I am standing here now, Geordie, having recommended it to you and tried it on you, I'm like, oh. Maybe I shouldn't go around recommending this to people. What's your
take, by the way? Princess of Mars. Did you like it? Do you recommend it? We know the answer to one. I didn't like it and I don't recommend it. I don't think there's a lot to actually gain out of reading this one. Because, you know, this should be... more serialized, more pulpy. I know it was originally serialized. This is the wrong format to read this in. I mentioned earlier this year, Duncan, that I had read a short story called
The Son of the White Wolf. I was looking for Michael Moorcock's Son of the White Wolf, not The Son of the White Wolf. No, sorry. White Wolf's Son by Michael Moorcock. And he discovered, hey, A Robert E. Howard story I'd never heard of before. It introduced me to new characters in a new setting I'd never seen before. It was very racist. Much more so even than this book. But I still had a much better time. Because guess what? It was a little package deal. I read through it in 45
minutes. I got the full experience and was like, okay, I feel like... I learned something new about an author I like. I feel like I learned something new and interesting about this stage of literary history. I feel like that was worth experiencing. I would recommend that to fans of pulp fiction. I can't say the same for this, because there's no point in this story where I would say, read this bit, read this collection of chapters, and you will learn something about
the place that fantasy has come from. It will be worth your time. I just don't think that exists here. Curious. I think I disagree. I do like it a bit more from you, but I still wouldn't recommend Princes of Mars purely on an enjoyment
factor. I would recommend it on a historical context factor I think it is really nice to see an early example of science fantasy I think when you can read it and see where things go connections to Star Trek connections to superheroes and just a general characterization of alien worlds There is something there, but you're right, it is quite a slog for what you're getting out of it. I certainly wouldn't recommend it on a pulpy, fun front. Certainly, if you're interested in getting into
boroughs, definitely start with Tarzan. I would also want to add, actually, two really other
key things. I know we spoke a lot this episode about the sensitivities and the politics and the racism around, you know, everything in this book I don't think it's the most heavy -handed thing and also it certainly comes across for me as a oh particularly in this first book I'm going to make that very clear it doesn't read like Lovecraft at his most racist and it's like egregious and against the story and horribly unpleasant it does read more as insensitive for
the time though I don't think he's actively going out with a negative message. True. I just think it's a product of his times. And he certainly does a lot better than Lovecraft, and probably even Robert E. Howard, as you alluded to in the story that you had. So in that way, I think, you know, don't let that put you off. Let it being a bit boring put you off. Go and read Tarzan. That still has problematic issues. But at least it's fun and exciting. And my final point. I
really want to hammer home Princess Mars. Because I keep saying this. I've said this again and again throughout the episode. I really like the comic book. Warlords of Mars by Dynamite Comics. Is a really fun read. Because it takes Princess of Mars. And it slaps it into about four comic issues. It's faster. It's colourful. It smooths
off some of the rougher edges a little bit. highly highly highly recommend duncan are you aware that there's an rpg system based off of john carter of mars i was not aware but i'm not surprised do you think that's something that you'd be interested in thinking about like you think it'd be something that you think would be fun to explore as a setting for people to have their own adventures in that's a very good question i think based on what i know of the setting I think it would be quite
a hard one to do because the setting of John Carter is very much tailored to some of John Carter's adventures. John Carter, basically, from the arcs I've read forward in the comics, he finds a new civilization or a new Martian type and has an adventure in their city. And then the next one, he finds the next lost secret civilization. Like I said, we basically go, ah!
there's this lost civilization of yellow martians oh no there's a lost civilization of white martians oh no there is a lost lost civilization of black martians and it kind of falls through i don't know how i would really do trying to build a complete world like a sandbox for a barsoom campaign probably a one -off six sessions you could do it but i think i would struggle to really get to the depth of this universe Would it interest you to know that it's made by modifiers to people
who made Conan Adventures in an Age Undreamed Of? Oh, hello. I like that. Okay, you sold it to me. 2D20? Can we have at least four different currencies for game mechanics? And everyone needs to have both a physical and mental health bar. There is a third one, actually. There's a physical and a mental health bar. And there's also objects health bars. And they all have a unique system of healing where medicine heals physical wounds, counselling heals mental wounds, and smithing
heals breakage in objects. Okay, at no point while reading Princess and Master did I go, yes, this is a scene where John Carter gets counselling. Duncan, I've come to my conclusion. It sounds like you've come to yours as well. I think I have, and I think it's certainly come off more negatively than I anticipated when I picked this book. But then, as I kind of self -reflected, I did realise I read this book for the first time, Geordie, six years ago, and I never wanted
to read. It's not even occurred to me to read any of the follow -ups. Whereas... I read a load of Tarzans, and do you know what? I still think, oh gosh, if I had the time, I would definitely read another one. Never had this with Princess of Mars. So, I think I knew, but I knew deep down it was hidden behind lots of other emotions. I'm sure that must have been troubling to come to terms with, Duncan. A moment of silence. We're not allowed to actually do moments of silence.
That's bad podcasting. It is, it's terrible. Duncan! Geordie! I think we said all we can about. A Princess of Mars and John Carter. We probably aren't going to play that RPG. I probably will watch the movie. Maybe I'll give a little mini review. At the start of a future episode. We shall see. Weirdly enough Duncan. When I saw Thunderbolts. I never saw the Black Widow movie. And I never saw. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. And I didn't see Captain America Brave New World.
So when I went into it. I was really going in blind. And I'm like. I might need to go back and watch those to understand exactly what I just saw. Because whilst I did have a good time, I did often feel like I was playing catch -up. So somewhere along the way, I've got to fit in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier and squeeze John Carter in there somewhere. All on Disney
+, mate. Well worth the subscription. When you say that, you actually mean well worth persuading your girlfriend to log in on your laptop so that you can watch while she's doing yoga. Oh. Absolutely. Do you think I went through university and ever paid for my own Netflix? Not in the good old days. It's a very complicated arrangement in my household because I use my housemate's Netflix. Everyone's using my Amazon Prime and then I'm using my girlfriend's Disney Plus. Really, ****
is letting the team down. Actually, I don't know if I should say her name because I haven't asked her if I could talk about her on the podcast. Really, I think, redacted. is letting the team down by not contributing enough streaming services. She could at least give us Paramount Plus. Oh, Apple TV, mate. You've got to get on the Foundation TV show. I will not do that. It looks shit. Moving on. Moving on. If I want to watch Apple TV and forget, hey, forget Foundation. Duncan, have
you seen For All Mankind? No. Do you know what? I've been trying to get my girlfriend to watch with me. The Expanse TV show. Now that I've read all the books that cover the TV show, I'm like, right, I want to jump into this. I don't know about that, but Duncan, you as an engineer, you as a fan of science fiction, for the love of God, you have to watch Forumankind. It's amazing. It's not even remotely within the bandwidth of this TV show. You can't persuade me that it's
fantasy. So let's move on to something that is more relevant, but we are not going to drop Forumankind. You should watch it. Duncan. Geordi. You chose John Carter of Mars, a princess of Mars, warlords of Mars, under the moons of Mars. It's in there somewhere. But now it's my turn to pick the book we're reading for next time. What are you going to do, Geordi? I've gone back. This is like, I think, other than our Bram Stoker, our most historic book we've ever touched. Are we going
contemporary? Are we going somewhere in the middle? What's it going to be? We are going somewhere in the middle. And actually, we're going to a place that I haven't often strayed. I don't know if I've ever brought us a book from this era. I feel like this has been more your wheelhouse up to now. And to be quite frank, I don't really know what I'm bringing to the table here. This was something that I saw mentioned online. I looked into it. It sounded a little interesting,
but I really have no idea what it's about. But it just was like, hey, we haven't really done something like this from this era before. Interesting. I'm curiously optimistic. By the way, I think Midway is actually something ridiculous like 1968 at this point. Time is weird. Yeah, yeah, we really have stretched ourselves out. Actually, you know what? It would be really interesting to know what the mean, median, and mode average is for when we choose to read books. I could
find that out. I have a spreadsheet full of all the books we've done. I could pretty quickly find that out. I'm going to do that. You should do that. And if you want to see those results, the best place will be our Instagram. Is this fantasy podcast? Is this just fantasy podcast? On Instagram. Best place to contact us to find out when new episodes are released and little extra reviews and tidbits as we go along. Also, catch us on Blue Sky at justfantasy on Blue Sky.
And as always, our Gmail. Best place to ask us a long, big old question that might just turn into a bonus episode at isthisjustfantasy at gmail .com. Isthisjustfantasypodcast at gmail .com. Yes, you'll write that inside. It's just a fancy podcast at gmail .com. Thank you, Geordie. Duncan, I don't know if you've even heard of this. Next time, we are going to be reading Sheep Farmer's Daughter, the first part of The Deed of Paxenarion by Elizabeth Moon. Well, the answer's
no. Okay. Secondly, 1988. 1988. Wow, you googled that really fast. I didn't edit out a big pause there. Yes, so we've done a couple of books from the 1980s. I don't think I've ever introduced a book from the 1980s. But we definitely have not introduced a book by a female author of, like, fantasy adventure from the 1980s. That's a combination of sentences that I don't think we've done so far. No, I don't think we have
even... nearly approached it. I think the only rule in the 1980s that we properly hit, we did, what was it, we did Dark, we did Gunslinger, and we've done Magician. Magician, exactly. Which are the only two that jump out to me. That's why I feel like I want to hone in on this spot. I think this is going to be interesting. You've got a female sword and sorcery hero in the main position here. She's right there on the cover. She's like a knight fighting some weird wolves
in a river. I don't know how that happened. Let's find out. Okay, well, I... Deeply look forward to exploring that book with you too, Geordie. Please, everyone, join us next time for The Sheep's Farmer's Daughter. I'm looking forward to it. I've been your host, Geordie Bailey. And I've been your other host, Duncan Nicol. So long. Bye.