Bonesmith

Hello and welcome to another episode of Is This Just Fantasy? The podcasts were every other week. Two nerds get together to rate, read and review a fantasy novel. I’m your host, Geordie Bailey. And I’m Commander Duncan of the Border Force. That's right, there's an actual character this time. It's so rare to find a Duncan in a fantasy book. Weirdly. I wouldn't think they'd be this rare.

One day, Duncan, we're going to go back to the book that got you named and we'll read the novelization of Macbeth and then you can make jokes about it galore. That would be amazing. Macbeth the King. Macbeth the King, that's right. That's named after it. I happen to remember that because I was recently re-going back through an old episode of ours

for Sisters of Steel and Shadow and for a very specific reason. But let's not get distracted straight away because we are reviewing Bonesmith by, oh Nicky... Pal Preto. Thank you, Duncan. This was your recommendation? It is, I’m very excited to talk about this book. This is actually a relatively blind read for me. This is a Christmas present from my little sister. She got it for me. I had many books I listed and I think there was a level of nervousness. She went, I’ve gone

off piece. I’ve bought you something you didn't ask for. But I’m confident this should be up your alley when it comes to fantasy literature. Interesting. And a strong recommendation because your sister hasn't let us down before. She certainly has not. Her fantasy knowledge I think probably exceeds mine at this point. Maybe we have our own different niches. I don't think she's coming near me when it comes

to Sword and Sorcery pulp, but she's read so many books. So yeah, when she makes a recommendation I do take it very seriously. So I am very excited to share our thoughts on Bonesmith. But before we get into that, Geordie, have you been reading, watching, experiencing any other fantasy you want to share with us? See? Not exactly, but there's a reason why I was checking out our episode on Sisters of Steel and Shadow. Sword and Shadow? But it's Sword and Shadow.

Sword and Shadow, okay. Two years later we still haven't gotten this one. The reason why I was revisiting it is that I have been reading, rereading Bernard Cornwall's Warlord trilogy. I have read The Winter King and the follow up Enemy of God. Is this off the fact that it's got a TV adaptation recently? I don't think that was recently, Duncan. I think that was like two years ago. Oh. Fair enough. Still on my to watch list. I’ve only just got round to the Fallout TV

show. I was like, oh my god, this is amazing! Someone should have told me. Sorry, go on. It has nothing to do with the TV show. I have not seen it. The moment I saw the wigs in the trailer I was like, not for me. No, I was um, why did I start reading it again? I think you mentioned Bernard Cornwall last week and it just set me off. Had an amazing

time. Those are fantastic books. For those who are not in the know, they are stories of King Arthur, but told from a very, um, obviously not historically accurate, because King Arthur did not exist. However, they are told from a, an emphasis on trying to represent the particular period of time where he should have existed. So the uh, the 400s, 450s, 60s, 60s and trying to really root it in that time period.

It's very rounded, isn't it? Like, it's about making these very real people and cutting out the more, well not the more, all of the fantastical elements. Yeah, all of the fantastical elements are sight of hand. They're about tradition, they're about trickery, they're about the power of belief, but there's a logical explanation for pretty much all of Merlin's tricks. And you liked it?

I really did. I really liked it. I not only had I forgotten how good they are, I’m pretty sure I just appreciate them more now. It's certainly something I want to go back and revisit. As a child, I was a massive fan of Bernard Cornwell, reading both his Saxon and his sharp stories. And I think The Winter King, because it's a, it's a neat trilogy, um, and obviously those other two series are massive. It's, I think it's a much more smooth introduction to his work.

Yeah, fantastic stuff. And it's the ones that Bernard Cornwell says he's basically the most proud of. He thinks that's his best stuff. And I tend to agree with him. I mean, not that I’ve read his sharp novels, so. But yeah, that's what I’ve been doing. I’ve been rereading those. I’ve caught up with,

um, I listened to a previous episode on Sisters of Sword and Shadow, and it holds up. Although, my critique was great, and I think we were actually more prudent and delicate than I even remember us being, but I did realise that there is a solid, like, five minutes of radio silence at the end of that episode where I made an editing mistake, and I do not have the original file, so I can't fix it. Oh. Well, at least it was at the end. People can turn it off at that point.

But Duncan, in the meantime, have you been up to anything? Yes, yes, I have. And it's a continuation of what I’ve talked about several times this year. Geordie, I have like a three month subscription to Kindle Unlimited for like three quid. Excellent Christmas deal. And on Kindle Unlimited, they have basically all of Dynamite's comics, and Dynamite published Red Sonja. Sword and Sorcery absolutely love the character. I’m sure she

will appear on this podcast in a more formal fashion this year. Like, that is one of my kind of year goals. And I read yet another series. This is Red Sonja Mother, written by Mirka Andolfo. And it was very different to some of the other stories I’ve read so far. Red Sonja, for those who don't know, is a very classical Sword and Sorcery heroine character, set in the same universe as Cain the Barbarian. And she gets many different

spins on her. Every time a new production guy, a new writing team comes in, they kind of do like a soft reboot. The most recent one, this mother, title kind of gives away a little bit, goes down a very lone wolf and cub story angle, which is not 100% new for the character. Sure. So we're talking about Logan, we're talking about the Mandalorian, that sort of thing. A tough badass looks after a little kid.

Exactly. And it's one of those ones, I think we've had this a few times on the podcast, where you look at something and go, right, this is, I think it was in Green Rider, I first said this, and I thought this might come up later. When something's like a 10 out of 10, 7 out of 10. When something's like, this is really good for what you're going for, but I just feel like what you're going for, maybe it's just not the most exciting idea at this point.

Does Red Sonja not lend herself to a lone wolf and cub story? Is that what you're saying? It's not what I’m saying. Red Sonja lends herself quite well, because she is, or can, has been or can be portrayed as very much a solitary soldier of fortune. I think that

works. I think what is kind of disappointing here, particularly compared to the last Red Sonja series I read, which took a very high political angle, multiple factions, the moral decision making when you're looking after loads of soldiers, coming to terms with your

own limits of your abilities, even though you're the best swordsman in the world. Having Red Sonja meet a kid and, you know, bond with the child, look after the child, have a bit of a separation, and you get to the end and the ending of this arc is everything that you think it's going to be. It's The Last of Us, it's Empire of the Vampire, it's a group of cultists being like, if we sacrifice the child, we may save the world. And Red

Sonja being like, no, I care for her too much. I will make the personally righteous choice, even though it may leave her greater sacrifice. And I was just like, there's nothing wrong. If this was the first of this story I’d ever read, I would probably call it great. But I just don't think you're innovating at all in a lone wolf and cub story, even if your execution I think is really well done. Sure, so despite the execution, the lack of ambition,

the way it plays it safe really detracts from the whole. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Foreshadowing is a literary device in which- What I’ve been trying to say in a rambling fashion, thank you very much mate. So do you recommend to fans of Red Sonja, do you recommend to non-fans of Red Sonja, I recommend the Warlord trilogy to pretty much anyone who can, yeah, anyone

who enjoys historical fiction, that has a sort of war focus to it. I would recommend this to existing fans of Red Sonja, but this certainly wouldn't be the entry point for the character. Talking of entry points actually, just a little bit more Red Sonja. Geordie, exciting news, the Red Sonja movie. Yeah. The new one. It was finished filming in like 2023 and they've been looking for someone to distribute it for two years, not a good

sign, but it finally has a distributor just for the UK and Europe. Wow. So it's coming to cinemas near us. Well, I’ll definitely go see it man. I mean, just to commemorate it, if anything else. So it's not releasing in the US. At the moment, it will not have a theatrical release in the US. Who knows what will happen in the end. I imagine it was it's out in theatres in the UK, like that will start the clock ticking till it has to

be available, you know, via streaming or DVD if you live in the past. I mean, yeah, it's not nothing comes out to then just vanish. That's just not how it works anymore. So I guess if they don't get a distributor in time and they have confirmed it will come to the UK this year, then it will probably hit the US via streaming then and just miss a theatrical release. I can't imagine the UK releases can be that massive either. But I these are bad

signs but to be honest, I like the director, the director did the Solomon Kane movie. I enjoyed that movie. It's great came in like 2009. Wow. Have they made anything more recently than that? Nothing that I can remember that I thought was good. Okay. Okay, cool. Cool. Duncan, you're really selling this one to me. Listen, set your expectations low. And I think you might be surprised. Duncan, that's almost word for word a line in this book.

Yes. Right. Let's get on to that. Nice, nice, very deliberate segue. The first in a duology. This is not the first thing Nikki Pau Pretto has written. She's done several other works. I think she has an existing trilogy called like the Crown of a Feather. Maybe that's what the first book is called. She's also when I was doing a bit of googling wrote a book that I was like, that sounds amazing. It's called Oh gosh, it's like the last chance

magic last chance school for magical delinquents. I was like, well, your title learning has solved me. I saw that. But yes, Bonesmith, part of the duology, the sequel school Ghost Smith. This is a piece of YA fantasy where we follow the story of a Bonesmith, a character who has a magical ability to influence bones and they live in a magical land where there

are different clans. Bones Duncan. Yes. Bones with bone armour and bone rings and bone swords and bone portcullis is and bone art and decorations, bones sewn into the structure of walls, which are harvested special anchor bones, which will be described to us many times rather than the story about how the different logistics of using bones in magic. Oh no, it's the industrialization of bones where these Bonesmiths go out to do funeral rites and from poor people

to collect payment, they just take certain bones. The point of the narrative is these people live in a world where the undead, sorry, the dead always rises ghosts, depending on who they were in life and the amount of their death, they may rise at different levels of strength of ghosts in a convenient tier system from one to five. And this is a threat to

the whole society. And what we get in this story, we follow a Bonesmith called Wren, who is the sort of outcast from her noble house and sent to the border wall to live in shame. And the border wall separates the dominion where they have a control on the ghosts to the desolate desolation, badlands where a great breach has happened, which has

sent too many ghosts and they can't control it. So they built a wall and some people have been trapped on the far side of the wall, the sort of wildlings, no, the Ironsmiths live on the far side of the wall. And when Wren is at the wall, a prince of the noble house come visiting, he is Kim Nat one on an excursion east of the wall, not north, east of the wall. And Wren teams up with an Ironsmith who was betrayed by his own kind

to go and rescue him. That is the narrative. Yes, it is. So before we go any further at Duncan, we said we would tell people that both of us are recording in separate but new locations. So we've done test recordings and they sound okay, but it's different when you record a whole new podcast. So we might have some TVing problems for this episode, but hopefully everything will be sorted out by the next one. Yes, thank you. Do bear with

us and do bear with me. I’m recovering from a bit of a cold, but I think I’m pretty much over it now. Yeah. Unfortunately, I always sound like this. So Duncan, um, the Bonesmith. Yeah. It takes place in the world of very familiar ideas. You know, you have these different classes of magicians who have different powers. In this case, all wizards are called Smiths and he will have a power to control a different substance. So you've mentioned Bonesmiths,

but there's also Ironsmiths. You can control iron, Goldsmith, Silversmiths, water Smiths, um, Ghostsmiths, of course, the bad guys. And then like a bunch of stuff. They're like, they used to be a bunch of different Smiths who were very important, like tin Smiths and copper Smiths, but they are no longer required for an industrialized society. So they don't matter anymore. It was wood Smiths. Another one. I made that up. Wood Smiths. I thought

I’d mentioned them. Yes. Wood Smiths are mentioned once as a sort of thing that's almost rumoured to exist, but like it has been lost so long ago that, um, they're very scarcely even remembered. So Geordie, what are your kind of overall thoughts before we get into sort of specifics here? Okay. My thoughts are, remember what you say. I will feed back to my sister. Yeah. So I wish you hadn't told me that this was her, her gift to you because I was correct when

I said she has not read it, let us wrong. I should have said she has not let us wrong so far. Here's the deal, Duncan. Um, this is not a bad book. It's written effectively. I agree. It's written excitingly even maybe not as exciting as it could be. You know, I don't like the way that some of the fight scenes are written for example, but it's enjoyable enough the characters, the dynamic is, is okay. I really like Wren as your very typical

spunky determined, uh, female main character. It's a familiar archetype, but it's a welcome one. I like it, but it is familiar. It's very familiar. This whole book is extremely familiar. I could, I could tell you everything about this book for maybe about five chapters in, like I made a bunch of predictions in my head and pretty much all of them turned out to be true. Even one I made on like page two. Okay. I want to hear more about this one.

I mean, I can tell you like the moment a character's introduced to me, like this was my father, but my uncle who was a great war hero was lost long ago and I’d never been that close to my father. I’m like, yeah, cause he's your uncle and your, your, your dead uncle is actually your father moving on. Okay. Well, this is one where I actually didn't get that, but I mean, just, I mean, uh, spoilers for spoiler heavy review. We're not, I’m not, I don't

feel like I can hold anything back in this one. Um, so yeah, I think this is an enjoyable enough book. If you like the sort of things like thrown of glass, for example. Yeah. You'll like this. It's better than thrown of glass, but it's just, it's the same book. It's the same book that you've read a hundred times. If you like reading the same book a hundred times, whatever, you know, Duncan, what did you think? Once again, I feel like I’m not

necessarily in disagreement. I just have my own personal tastes that led a much more positive sensation with this book. I totally understand. This is YA. Yeah. This is, this is the most YA fantasy, YA fantasy it's, it's that I’ve ever read. It's just such the genre and such the tropes and such the expectations straight down the middle. This is a very well worn saying it's a very well worn path, but like Geordie said, it wasn't poorly executed. I do

have some criticisms that I want to get into. Yeah. In general, even when the characters are doing things like there's a bit of a romance in this book and it plays out exactly how I was expecting it to play out like beat for beat. Yes. But I still enjoyed the characters interacting. I was like, Oh yeah, this is cute. I wasn't, I love story for the ages. I wasn't like, Oh, I really hope they end up together. But I was like, this is nice

seeing you interact. This is pleasant. And there were scenes of like tension. There's a scene where they have to, you know, they're sneaking into this place. They're eavesdropping on these villains and Oh no, they're discovering that, you know, they're running out and one person goes, go on without me. I shall make a stand. And I was like, yeah, well you're fine mate. Don't worry because the page count is X. So I’m sure you'll get through, but

it was still nice to see. And I also found that generally the world, well, it did overly use the word bone and places as Geordie referenced at the start. It's incredible. It had a nice vibe to it. I was reading passages to my girlfriend and I was genuinely almost crying with laughter about how frequently the word bone is used. And not just because bone is a funny word. You cannot get past the repetition. It's, it's, it's truly unbelievable.

I definitely don't feel like it was needed to know many places, but there was like, you know, when we're in sort of east of the ball, so border wall, come on. There were creepy moments. There were moments of tension. I never felt like obviously our characters were in danger, but I enjoyed the, how are they going to get out of this one dynamic and in general, I was rooting for the characters. I wanted to see them succeed and now I think

that's really well mapped. Yeah. I liked it well enough. It came in, it's did its job. It's something that I would definitely, I’m going straight to recommendations. If you are a fan of this genre and you want something more, yeah, this is, this is, this is another book in this genre that I think is quite good. You will probably enjoy it. I am going to hold back what I say about recommendations. I know I already did say yes, the exact same

thing as you Duncan. If you like this stuff, you like this stuff, but I have one more thing to say on that note, but I’d like to leave it for the end of the episode, which is where we normally do recommendations. Okay. So we've given an overall impression. Let's manoeuvre into like precise critiques. Let's start with the bad stuff and then we'll go into the good stuff. How about that? That sounds good to me, Geordie. And there's

something that I do really want to go off my chest. I found the opening to this book, a bit of a drag. And I mean like the first quarter, everything up and to the point that our main character, Wren and her Ironsmith companion, Julian, go out on their sort of quest together to rescue the stolen Prince, all of the setup, the trial in the woods where Ren is trying to take on her final like Bonesmith exam. It's a practical exam to getting

banished to the border for two. The character's there to her finally going beyond the wall. Gosh, I felt like that was either thing is I don't feel like it was too long. I feel like, yeah, I get why you need this time to get us there. I just felt like it wasn't good enough. All the characters in this section mean nothing to what I think the actual meat that's in me in bones then. I don't know why I found that funny after what she just said.

The actual meat of the plot, which is the actual adventure, we get a lot of setup, we get a lot of time spent on characters like this. There's a character called Inara who Ren sets up is her rival at school. They've been going back and forth their entire lives trying to one up each other. Wren is sort of the outcast and does what she likes, but Inara is always toeing the line and they have this bitter rivalry.

You would think that Inara was going to be like the Draco Malfoy in this book. She would constantly be there. She would constantly be a thorn in her side, but instead she's there right at the start and then right at the end to book end the book. She's like a different character between the two. At the start I’m like, yes, you're doing

a good job. I am hating this Inara. Oh, and at the end she shows up again and basically has this one heart to heart where she's like, actually Wren, I was just jealous of you because you're such a free spirit. Yes, talking like human beings talk. Okay. And she went, I was only really cool to you because someone else basically told me to and I felt threatened and I’m like, That was a bit predictable though, wasn't it?

That was a bit predictable and Maesha was like, yeah, but that explains that one incident, but you had this whole rivalry for years. There was so much set up and you just disappear. It's not even like Wren even thinks about Inara on her journey or we get flashbacks to like their rivalry. It's heavy, heavy, heavy emphasis at the very start and then nothing. Yeah, I’d say that of the two weeks I spent reading this book, the first week was spent

getting through the first 20% of earnest reading. Part of that was because I didn't have my cheat code on because I couldn't find an audio book for this. Even though it does exist, I found it like a week in. I was like, oh, it's been here the whole time. I looked for it but didn't find it. At first, I just assumed that they refused to release an audio book

because they could not find an actor who would have saved the word bone so many times. I truly wish I could express, I wish I could press control F and find out how many times the word bone is used. But instead Duncan, I have actually found a good passage to demonstrate this if you wouldn't mind. Go ahead. I’m just going to read a paragraph from the beginning of chapter two. That was the magic

of the Bonesmiths, the ability to sense, move and manipulate dead bones without touch. Within a 10 foot radius, Bonesmiths could summon a bone to their hand, guide its movements in midair or heft bones much heavier than the muscles alone could bear. Valkyrs like Wren carried bone weapons, the magic linked them extra speed and strength as well as pinpoint

accuracy. Bonesmiths could see spiritual tethers, the fibres that connected the ghost to its bones that were indistinguishable to the non-Bonesmith eye. BONE! See, I thought that... Incredible. ...Nikki Paul-Pretto was actually setting up like a little cheat here because she says that Wren is a Bonesmith but she's also a Valkyr? The audio book pronounced it Valkyr. It's Reapyr and Valkyr. Brilliant. But like, this sort of subclass of Bonesmith, I’m like, ah, is this so you

don't have to keep saying the word Bonesmith? Once again, established at the start, not used through 80% of the novel. So we talked about, yeah, the word bone is used a lot at the start. It's embarrassing. It takes a really long time to get through this section and I think part of that is just

because of the absolute deluge of exposition we get. Really, I mean, the word show don't tell should just be written all over this book in red marker because it's genuinely incredible the way in which you have all these different types of magic users and it's just explained to us again and again and again. This is what they do. This is what this different type does. The goldsmiths are in charge because of this thing that happened in history and

let's do a little paragraph on that. Kind of unforgivable. Like, even compared to something like children of blood and bone, in that we have Xaeli telling us what all these different clans can do or rather what they used to be able to do. She has to tell us because they cannot show us. They can't do this stuff anymore. But in this book, these characters are all active. They still had their powers. So rather than saying, oh, silversmiths are our medical

users because silver has antimicrobial properties. So they use that to heal people. Why don't you just add a silversmith character even for one scene, like healing people after the Bonesmith exam and just show it. Don't just explain it. I’m very much in agreement. It's something that bothered me because I could sort of looked at it and thought, well, I

think there's you're right. There are easy ways to solve this, particularly things like you talked about the goldsmiths and we get sort of this paragraph of their backstory and that when we meet the goldsmiths, we meet the prince of the goldsmiths. Why can't you work it into his dialogue? You know, have someone this just me speculating here. I know this isn't always the best thing to do when you're critiquing a book, but like he gets

captured at one point is talking to like Ironsmith. I’m like, how nice must be like, what makes you think you have like the authority to rule and then have the prince sort of give this history through like a rebuttal or that kind of conversation or has an accuser night. This is the only reason your royalty and then you can kind of build some character work

alongside your world building. I think that would have worked a lot better, but this sort of prescriptive approach is found all over the novel and not just when it comes to unpacking information about characters and history. This is how fight scenes are written as well. Like there's a bit in it where Wren has to pull off his really daring, difficult technique, which is basically all about like letting the ghost charge you standing completely

still and just like stabbing it and letting it's missed part around you. And if it touches you once you're dead. And this is written in this, it's way where like the technique is described to us instead of the action. Like it's explained exactly the mechanics

of how it works and the mechanics of how it's playing out in the moment. Instead of just saying I did this, you know, I grit my teeth and I readied myself like I had a hundred times before and you know, and stealing my nerves and making it exciting instead of giving us data. I don't want data. I want drama. And again, a scene like that, how maybe the character do the action and either we as the reader can just infer, well, yeah, that's

part of their magic. They have influence over bone or have another character who maybe doesn't understand the system. Like for example, our Ironsmith character, ask them later. What was that? Blah, blah, blah. So I think that's major component. I don't go super negative, but I do want to. There's another point. This is on kind of pointless characters. Again, I’m going to swing back around to Geordie. So I just talked a lot or previous. I talked

a lot about in Nara and a character gets lots of buildup and then goes nowhere. There's a cat in this book that I swear isn't it's a name character. They exist for like three sentences and it befuddled me why they were even included. Cause when they were introduced, I was like, right, you're someone you're coming back or what's your role in this? Do you know how I’m talking about Geordie? You talking about Odile? No, not Odile, less than Odile. I’m

talking about Wren's bunkmate at the border fort called like Sabina or something. I don't think she was supposed to be a main character Duncan. I don't know why you would get that impression. Not that she's meant to be a main character, but why does she even need to exist? She exists in the scene where the prince falls into Wren's bedroom and literally she goes, Oh, my bunkmate Sabina not mentioned before the scene. Um, just put her head on the pillow

and said, you two do what you two are up to. And then they leave. And I’m like, were you friends? Why is she here? You're allowed to just have people who exist in one scene. No crime has been committed. Oh no, there is a crime. Why is she your bunkmate? Were you friends? Do you have a relationship? Why is this not up? Why is she not there later? No, Duncan. Sometimes when you're a soldier, you have a bunkmate. She's lucky she doesn't have

18 bunkmates. Oh, she could have had more bunkmates if they had character. I’m just so confused by this one person. Duncan, it's fine. She's talking about like her friends and she's like, what about your bunkmate? Were you not friends? Okay, fine. Maybe not this one. No Duncan, they're not friends. They've been together for two weeks. What about then her Reaper? This was one that I want to stick it to you. Well, Sonya betrayed her. I know Sonya betrayed

her. But you guess what? Wrens acts like she doesn't know. It never comes up again. You think that betrayal would knock her for sixes? She's over it in a week. I just think about her again. That is a fair criticism, but it just did not matter to me. It just didn't matter. That's not stuff I was focused on. I mean, Wren is a lonely character, you know? She has this imperious above it all air, but she is very isolated. I think that is a thematically

consistent part. Then again, for someone who is like lonely, doesn't have any friends, she actually is really good at socializing and making friends. She's a party girl. That's a contextual part of her character. She likes to have a good time, but she doesn't have any close friends or companions. That is a bit noticeable. It just confuses me so much. They talk about her. When she's meeting with the prince, she's like, well, my father wouldn't

let me drink before, but I got my alcohol somewhere else. When she's talking about Junia, she's like, well, obviously I’ve had a tumble with a man before. Not quite that phrasing, but she shows that she has a bit more experience socializing with people, but none of these people are sort of referenced or thought about. Like you said, she's explained to be very lonely and isolated in our old community, yet she speaks of experiences that we sort

of fly in the face of that. Right. That's all the negative character relationships and the slow beginning. Geordie, any more- and the use of the word bone and the over explanations. Gosh, these are dampeners, but there is some really fun stuff in here as well. Geordie, let's do a positive. What did you like? I really liked Leo. I really- he was a hoot. At a certain point, the story is mostly told from Wren's perspective, but it does occasionally switch

to the other two main characters, Leo and Julian. Leo's chapters are just a hoot. I found him really funny. I found him charming. I found him compelling. He's an extremely impotent character, but he finds resourcefulness and small victories where he can, where he's just doing little social moves where he's the one who's kidnapped. He's this prince. He's the damsel in distress, but he actually has a surprising amount of agency and good

humour about the whole kidnapping. We find out- actually, this is something I didn't like. I thought it was really stupid that he knew he was going to be kidnapped in advance, but made absolutely no moves to try and prevent it. That was weird, but I do like that when he is kidnapped, he sort of is rolling with the punches, so there's a bit where he's trying to find out more information. Every time he talks, one of them is like, put your

hood back on. Eventually, he's just going, yeah, yeah, yeah. He puts the hood back on and then goes straight back to asking questions. I found that funny. I found it charming. I completely and honestly agree. He was such a fun character. You're right, he's in this situation where he's being captured. I love the fact that he identifies things like, okay, so the commander of the guard, that's the one who's always just going to hit me and

make me quiet, but that guy, that guy's looking young. He's the new recruit. Okay, he's my easy target. Let's start being friendly with him. And this all comes to fruition because when he meets with the big bad guy, he actually provides us with a bunch of information that he's put together and we have a bunch of separate pieces and then he's the one to connect the dots and he says out loud to us and the bad guy. Okay, so I’ve actually figured out what your plan is and I’ve figured out from these

different elements. I’ve actually demonstrated that I’m much smarter than anyone in this book or the reader probably realized I am and that's a, that's a pretty good and cool moment. It's very nice to see something you don't see very often. I find when you often you get that character who's like overly buffoonish, but meant to be like really clever deep down.

Maybe it's betrayed like an act or it's done a little bit too much like two separate personalities where with Leo, I think Nikki Paul Breton does a really good job of making it so it feels completely natural. Like yes, he's bored. He plays up. He's the prince. He doesn't care, but he has been at court. He is savvy. He knows how to make the small movements to get what he wants and where he's going. I’m just saying these is another little bit. I like

that he does this play in this book. This is the kind of grand tactical piece where he starts like spreading rumours. Every time they stop, he like, we'll just chat, you know, to the woman that brings him water or whatever. And it would just be like, you know, have you heard? I think they are assassinated the heir to the, their kingdom. I’m putting my hand up here, Duncan. I’m asking that's not my read on it. Maybe I misread

this, but my impression was that he hadn't been doing that, but that's a lie. He tells the bad guy. He says, I’ve been telling people all throughout my journey, what your evil plan is when I figured it out. So it's not going to work anymore because I’ve told everyone. It's not a secret. I thought that was a lie and he hadn't been doing that. Am I wrong about that? I think you're wrong about that. It's made very clear when he has the first thought about spreading those rumours, a servant comes to

where he's being held and he starts chanting this. I’m not meant to talk to. And then we have the light bulb moment. It's like, Whoa, hang on. What could I say that would be damaging? And then puts together his scheme. So I think he actually was doing that for outside the seaside towns he's been traveling through. Interesting. I may have fallen asleep when that happened because I do not remember that scene at all.

Very well. So Leo thumbs up, but we've got two other key characters in this dynamic triangle. We have Wren and Julian and they are very much the power couple at the heart of this book. That's true. I’ve said the stuff I like about Wren. So I think we should focus on Julian for a bit. Julian, Julian, my man, Julian, he is an iron Smith. He is the heir to the Ironsmith throne. He is betrayed by his evil uncle. Just like

friends, evil uncles. Gosh, this author has something against that uncle. I hope it wasn't too bad. Just really love Hamlet. Lecherous, treacherous, unkindly villain. Oh, yeah, I should fatten the region's kites with this slave's awful. Yes, they're all evil and they're so pure evil as well. But yes, Julian is betrayed by his own. They are. Because they want power and to seize the throne. And they didn't even just try to kill Julian, but they killed his father too. No.

Yeah, very Hamlet actually. Sorry, where are we going? Julian's betrayed. He falls in with Ren and they're the natural enemy. And what's kind of fun, I say kind of fun, they butt head the star and the moment these two characters, the moment that Julian ceases to become a faceless enemy, you're like, oh, and you're roughly the same age? Okay, cool. You're together. You're the couple. No, no, no, Duncan. The moment he stepped out

onto the field of battle, I was like, okay, yeah, I see how this is going. The moment he shows up and says, and it was a tall figure in a dark suit of armour. And I’m like, just kiss. Shut up. That was my response through like most of their journey. I was like, come on, guys, come on, guys, the tensions in the air. I quite like the fact that Wren is very much, they both seem very aware. There's tension in the air immediately. Like, it's not like,

oh, we're suddenly realizing our feelings. I think it's pretty much immediate. They're like, okay, I find them hot. I want to get with them. But we'll be here. Wren's just horny. She is. And you know what? I appreciate that. It is just horny. She hasn't had action for a bit. Now I agree. I actually like again, I like Wren's confidence. I like how she's overconfident. And I like the part of that is that she's sexually confident as well. Like she knows she's hot. She doesn't act

demure and shy about it. I’m glad we skip over that. And she gets to be like, I know Vakis into me. Why wouldn't he be? I just want to take a moment to talk about what Wren looks like. I really actually found it delightful when I discovered so the cover art for this book is an image of Wren in full armour holding out her bone blade with her like shining eyes. And this like this dark makeup around the face. And originally when

I looked at the cover, I was like, oh, that's the artistic impression. But I love it's a thing in the world that Wren is applying this black makeup around her eyes. It's actually like a really important like bit of character work. It like it's actually like the way in which she chooses to depict herself. You know, it says something about the characters and the way Julian responds to it says something about their relationship.

Like the removal of this after they like fall into a river, like the river is washing away the boundaries between them. It literally washes away like the bits of armour that she's using to defend herself. It like presents her as a less fearsome and softer visage and that changes the relation between them. That's all a little bit on the nose, but you know, it's effective. Oh, and there's a really sweet moment later as well where they need to sneak into this

Ironsmith settlement. And Julian offers up like a handkerchief to her to help wipe her makeup off. And again, it's just a very simple thing of showing where they've got to in their relationship and how they feel about each other. Again, really nicely done. So back to Julian. It is effectively done. It is effectively done. But what we really, I have to harp on is the fact that the moment he appears on the page and they're not even, they're not

even in smooching mode yet. They're still not even up in the fiercely grabbing each other mode. We're still in trying to kill each other. You can tell where the relationship's going. And to be completely frank, that never changes throughout the book. There's never a moment of suspense or mystery or wondering what a character is going to do next. It's so familiar. It's so plain as day that it did disengage me from the relationship. And

as much as, you know, there are cute moments, it never reached a great high. You know, we're not talking about Laszlo and Sarai. We're not talking about a relationship that makes you go, yes, I really want you to be together. To me, even the moments where they're like, like making out sloppy style, it's never that sensual. It's never that sexy. But it won't be if you refer to it as sloppy style. At least never say that again.

Well, they didn't have sex. There's just kissing and there's making out sloppy style. And then they stop saying sloppy style. I don't know why. I think it's hilarious. Yes, there is a lot of that. I think what I felt here is I was very happy to see these two get together, like, particularly because Wren's coming to it with such a passion. I’m like, yeah, you

know, just relax, let the boundaries drop, get to know each other. I think one of the things that was slightly disappointing in the relationship is that I never felt like they really got to a point where I was like, yes, you two as characters are compatible people. At no point was I like, yes, Wren and Julian, you shall marry and you will have a happy long life together. Like there was no, I was like, I don't know, you know, you're going

to break up in six months, maybe, or maybe you'll be together for life. Who knows? I know you're going to want to be together for the next two weeks. I’ve got that down. Yeah, that's, I think that's part of the fact of this book that it, because it's about this like whirlwind sprint across the country, there and back again, it's not something where you

can really set up of like a deeper growing relationship. So for example, I just read the Warlord Chronicles and then the second book, it does a surprisingly good job of telling a love story, which is not something I expect of Bernard Cornwell, Cornwell, excuse me, because it really takes its time. Like it is soft and slow and there's a lot of yearning and like watching people from afar and being like, oh, there's plenty of time to spend

like agonizing of how do I make them want to be with me? But because they're constantly on this adventure together, those quiet moments of yearning are like minutes spent doing that, not days or weeks of quiet pining. And it just doesn't really allow you to think like, yeah, this is something you've thought about a lot. You haven't had time to actually form a real relationship. And that's, you know, if this were a trilogy, that's what I’d expect

from the second book, but it's a duology. So I reckon even then you're probably going to be sprinting into the next one and rushing to finish it. So I don't know. I don't have high hopes for, um, what would the ship name be? Rulian. Juvan? No, that's not how it works. Duncan, come on. It's pretty clear that which of us has spent a lot of time on tumblr.com. Yes, it's very clear. I had another point to follow this up with. I liked them. They

were going to be together, not for a long time. They're on the sprint. There's definitely a note I think because they're on the sprint and like it was the danger was so high that I was mostly just there like, I’ll go on, just do it. You might be dead soon. So there's that aspect. Oh, I remember why. Oh, this is a bit negative. Oh, don't know if I want

to say I do. I’m going to say I’ve got to say it. Little negative I did find in this is that Julian when they first meet does this whole talk about Wren's uncle secret father who he was the Devastator. He used his magic. He slaughtered hundreds. He's this feared war criminal in Julian's nation's land. Obviously he's a revered hero. I don't think we probably made clear that the Ironsmiths and everyone else in the Dominion

had a big war. The Ironsmiths lost are actually believed to be like extinct now. So Julian showing up is a big deal. But when we get this set up, it's very clear that oh, Wren doesn't reveal who her family is that she's related to this great war criminal. And I’m just sitting there still thinking, great. Now we've got to do the liar reveal moping how could you keep this from me plot. And I’m not going to that was hanging over this

a lot of God when when's that going to hit? When are they going to have a misunderstanding? When are they going to do something? Because they think it's in the other's best interest or not tell them something because they think it's there will hurt their feelings to know and then they're not going to like each other. But guess what? They're definitely coming

back together. I mean, I haven't read the sequel maybe they don't maybe Wren is up which now I said it out loud I think I would prefer and I genuinely give brownie points for I disagree but carry on. Maybe they should all just realize they're not right for each other and pursue their own paths. I’ll give brownie points for that. I thought you were going to recommend a polycule now see you already now I’ve lost where I was going with this.

Well we'll get to the polycule when we read iron widow. Okay, so um, you were talking about the lie revealed. Now Duncan the lie revealed scene does happen but it doesn't lead to that big oh my god you betrayed me oh we have inseparable differences. Vance that scene does happen but it's completely unrelated. Did that mitigate your feelings about the lie revealed scene? It did quite a lot. I was weirdly almost already had heard

the book because I’m anxious for seeing happening when it didn't happen. I was like oh, I’m sorry. Oh, oh well I wish I knew that wasn't happening. I’ve been I’ve been so under a dark cloud for so long. That was nicely done. At least it was quick. I came at it differently. Oh yes it was quick. I also I don't think I got as bent out of shape about this as you

did so there's that but um I really disliked the disagreement scene. I just felt like the whole conflict was extremely manufactured and the only reason it worked I feel like Julian had kind of read the book ahead of time. Julian has a very good reason to not cross over into the Dominion territory. He's like the lead he's one of the leaders of the enemy faction. He'll be arrested and this and so and he has good reasons not to trust

them. So that's legit and he and the others can say well we'll vouch for you. We'll say you're our friend and that you helped us and to which Julian should say yeah but I kidnapped a prince. They're not going to forgive that. They were survivors like my group killed your guys. I’m going to go to prison forever. I can't come with you. Instead what the discussion is Julian says you can't trust any of those people. Um no

one in the whole Dominion can be trusted apparently. No one would act for your own best interest. They'll all tell you lies which is on its face an absurd thing to say. It just so happens to be completely true. So the twist here is that Julian says something that seems completely unreasonable only to be proven right and you can never predict this unless you've read another you know four other books. So this is the very frustrating part for me is that

I just want this bit to hurry up because I know what's going to happen. They're going to ditch Julian. They're going to leave him behind and then the only thing that surprised me at the ending is that Julian is immediately captured instead of coming in to rescue them at the end. That was the one thing that surprised me. Everything else word for word I predicted. I certainly knew that some of the characters would be betraying them. The obvious ones

were selected. You're a little bit exaggerating there. Only like the high ups in the Dominion are like we are secretly evil. Yes that's true. Commander Duncan is honest. There are some people who are not. And all Duncan's are. Duncan I bet you'll please that for once a Duncan is not being murdered in this book because there was a Duncan in the straight

races cure and he got his throat slit. Yeah and obviously King Duncan had a bad end and the only other Duncan I can think of off the top of my head I think it's in Dragon Age Origins the video game and he doesn't make it past the opening. I can name. Don't forget Sir Dunk from the 97 kingdoms. Yes. Except I think he does die tragically in the expanded history of Westeros. Yes Sir Duncan until Captain the Kingsguard he dies and I believe

it's the great fire at Summerhall. Naturally thank you Duncan. But not in his book. In the Vices book anyway. Yes Commander Duncan it's not like everyone's evil although I do like the fact that like the leader of the big bad Wrens father Vance they make a big deal out of that. You've got like the henchmen who are like at the border fort but Vance also has like his personal guard who are blindly loyal and in on the evil or just so blindly

loyal they don't care. I just I find it with this like this two tier system. I just always find it with when villains have henchmen who are like why are you following this guy? He's not even in your interests. How did he get a group of you who are also just like yes let's betray the heir to the throne. I’m on with that. I don't know how involved they are. I don't think they know about like the full ghost conspiracy right? Well they know

about iron revenants. Like they just told. Like the guy's buying these things and these like iron golems are rocking up. Surely that's a hint and like a corpse woman shows up for negotiations. Revenge is the one. Oh no sorry you're referring to the regents guys. Yes sorry I did jump characters there. Yeah I mean they but they have a good they you did jump characters there in a confusing way but they have a good reason to buy iron revenants

because they want revenge against the dominion. Yeah I suppose you're right. It just seems weird that everyone's always in on it. Yeah I mean it doesn't the kind of unconvincing part of a lot of this book is the mustache twirlingness of its villains. Like the regent the Julian's uncle whose name also starts with J. I forget what it is though. James? Anyway he's so evil and like in a way that it's like yes yes my boy of course I betrayed

you just like I betrayed your father. I know and I love the fact that his whole justification is like because I am the strong and only the strong will rule and I will release an army of the dead and revenge like he can have. Your father was too weak Julian I had to take his place and you had to be removed as well. No I love the fact that he I think he basically says at one point he's like he was too compassionate and caring for the common people his compassion

was his weakness. Exactly just like your mother. I’m sorry I’ll stop with this silly voice but yeah it's crazy and this happens in reverse at the end because Vance doesn't give any crazy evil speeches so he has Odile do the whole you're mad your idea is just crazy and now I will list out all of the evil things you ever done in a conversation which I don't know the main characters overhearing so that I can expose it all of the bad stuff that

you've done you the villain and now allow me to explain the death of your maybe sexual partner but also your brother's sexual partner who then gave birth to the main character and I’m going to deliver this dialogue in an extremely clunky and lengthy way which feels extremely unnatural. I didn't like the Aniva's book if you hadn't picked that up.

That's the other point I was kind of bringing up I had issues like I like the middle I like the middle and the climax and I think the first quarter and like the last eighth I was a bit iffy on but that still leaves five eighths which was solid. Yes you're right that that's that's fair the first quarter of the last the first 20 percent of the last eighth not by great. Sorry I feel like we've gone on negatives again. Okay that was our positive

section. I’m gonna jump I’m gonna jump point okay so those are some of the downsides let's

jump over though to a bit I really liked. I really liked when our two main characters Ren and Julian are traveling across this area known as the breach this great crater that opened in the ground and all the dead spilled out of and they're cutting across the breach because they're trying to catch up with the kidnappers and they're kind of heading them off at the turn by going through the dangerous territory that no one would dare go because

there are too many dead about. Firstly I thought the undead were quite a fun I I I could use a little bit at the literal tier system so tier one goes to tier two goes to tier three I’ve never fought a tier five before. It's a hard magic system we're gonna do. But I like the descriptions I like the fact that they can be very ethereal like a light green mist I like the idea that they just need to touch you and get this like death

rot. Yeah. And I do quite enjoy some of the fights with them they weren't brilliant but I like the fact that Wren was throwing out like a bone dust to make like a spray a bone deters the undead that's a key the ghost the undead that's a key plot point so does moving

so does water why does Earthly Castle not have a moment. The actual thing they can't cross the running water I like this idea a lot is that they can't leave the ground you know magic comes from the earth so they can't like they can't take any kind of step like they couldn't go up a ladder for example if you climb up a ladder you're completely safe you climb a rope you're safe if you cross you know not even a river a puddle if it stretches

across a space they can't go through it which I think is a really cool rules I would love to go down negative I would love to have seen this maybe reflected a bit more in the world's architecture like we have actual societies where people you know you build your houses up high or in have tree houses or house on stilts you know could this be implemented you could see that on the other side of the Dominion where they don't have Valkyrs and

Reapers maybe the house houses are built differently you know like you say no one lives on the ground floor of this house they all have to live on the second floor and they removed the stairs and replaced it with a rope or you can say all the buildings look fine at the bottom but they have like shanty towns on the roofs and they've built like a second like a second village above like above a so that the ghosts can't get them that would

be really cool and interesting but that doesn't really manifest and nor is the I gotta say you know it's only just occurred to me this moment there's a very dramatic scene probably one of the most exciting scenes in the book it's all about this chase across an iron bridge how the fuck did the ghosts cross that bridge oh you've just got me were the ghosts there's a special type of ghost called like a revenant where the ghost is bound in it's still about

they can't cross rivers I think they can were those the ghosts they were revenants yes but the revenants can't cross rivers no there must be a height limit to rivers though well I’m not talking about the river blocking them I’m saying that they you know they need contact with the earth that's what stops them from proceeding but the bridge is not the earth right like if they can if they can climb no but revenue what separates the bridge I

passed the rules no but what I’m saying is because they're revenants they don't care if the rules the revenants are stopped by the river yes but if they're really motivated they can ignore the rules I don't think that's true Duncan I think it might be maybe this was a part not overly explained Duncan there's a scene where they're in the river and the ghosts can't get them true but there's a scene where the revenant enters a town over a draw

bridge so this happens more than once revenants can just do it we're gonna deal with some floor is lava rules so what the floor is the ground the earth is I guess it literally is just that like they can't lift both feet above the ground like if one foot is on the ground that's okay so that means that they can't climb ladders because two feet would be off the ground that's making whatever that doesn't make any sense that's weird the bridge

is ground we've decided the bridge despite the fact it's not made of soil or earth it's ground well this is what makes me think if you built a stone keep could they walk up a stone keep what do you mean by up because they can't climb walls we know that no they can't climb walls but if you had a stone if you build a if you built like a tower out of stone and stone is earth could a ghost walk up the stairs I think ghosts can walk

upstairs okay yeah but they can't but they can't like ethereally fly Duncan I don't think it's a question of what is earth I think it's a question of what is floor okay so they basically still obey gravity despite being like spectral spirits ghosts still obey the rules of gravity is what we're saying yes they can't ghosts can't fly they always walk it's also explained one point that the ghosts move like spooky Japanese ghosts they they're all herky-jerky

oh my gosh yes you're right I’d actually forgotten that I think I had that in the back of my mind it would have been creepier throughout the book because that I don't like that that actually really puts me off you know the the ring level of not right movement yes that could have been creepy the reason why you forgot that Duncan is that the tier system is introduced in chapter 2 where they start fighting ghosts for the first time and tier

one is a completely passive form of ghost it's basically just like an evil mist tier two is like not dangerous at all it has a solid form but it's too stupid to attack three is where I can start fighting you and you have to fight back and then four is like a reasonably dangerous non-copo is a dangerous non-coporial ghost and in tier five is revenants and revenants are ones that are so animated that they're still attached to their corpse

they have a corporeal form they have physical strength and yeah they're like they're zombies you know they um they can move they can run they're far zombies but they're not supposed to have intellect the problem is that that means that we go straight from fighting ghosts to fighting walking corpses so Wren never fights she fights twice two times in the book these non-coporial actual ghost ghosts like see through glowing green and the rest of the

time it's walking corpses this presents a couple of problems for the narrative one of them is that we go we literally go straight from like zero to a hundred she has a little practice fight in chapter two and three against non-coporial ghosts and she struggles against them she goes across the wall and she's immediately fighting tier fives and nothing else there's one of a fight against a non-coporial what she does but for the rest of it it's just

tier fives the most dangerous ones all the time yes it's quite interesting to introduce the tier system but I don't feel like we really get a sense of it ramping up I think what would be really cool to see is maybe like have a fight that Wren wins against like a four have it be like a real struggle like she's putting out all the stops this is a really close call and then yes when the five gets rolled out then you go oh my gosh she

only just survived the four and now we've got the level five Duncan you're describing bleach but yes and that's what you should do you have it be a major struggle to fight the lieutenant and then captain Kenpachi shows up I mean there is it's a story about fighting ghosts who of course we're going to bring up bleach I miss bleach I miss good bleach are you following the thousand year blood walk no I probably should I’m probably

not gonna have it's that's on disney plus isn't it it is yeah I’m probably not going to Wrenew disney plus this year they've cracked down on their password sharing and they've put up their prices again and I think I’m I think I’m out I literally only ever watch their star wars tv shows and last year I didn't even watch the um acolyte I just watched skeleton crew which is amazing by the way please people go out watch skeleton crew really it it's

incredible I thought it was really good I like everyone said oh it's this goonies in space I’m like yes it's goonies in space it's really well done I know there's been some critique that in the first episode the planet they're on looks quite like earthy firstly okay it always looks like they're filmed on earth you know endor was a forest I I’ve seen loads of them I don't really buy into that critique but when they're actually out in

the world it's such a fun cast of characters and these are young actors doing amazing jobs and it really kind of hurts me that we finally got something that I think is really good our star wars and all that dominates the conversation is the fact that it had like no views kind of I i had no idea that anyone had even watched it no one has ever discussed in front of me i okay well that's thank you for letting me know that duncan maybe I’ll watch a bit of

skeleton crew I probably won't because star wars is for nerds but back to our ya fantasy novel all right we talked about good stuff we talked about the fighting we talked about the stuff and the fighting we didn't like I’ll say one more thing about this um as a general rule to go back to bleach straight away I don't like whip swords I think they're stupid this is the one time I thought this makes sense I think you're a character who

could use a whip sword yeah so you believe that he wouldn't just slice his own carotid artery and die after swinging it and he can use it for indiana jones stuff so he used it to like he whips it out and like attaches the stuff and you're like that makes sense because this this sword has like segmented bits and I make sense that they would like bind together and get stuck and it makes sense that he can use that same grappling ability

in a non-lethal way because he can control the way the lip the whip lands he can make it like even if it doesn't bind together he just like he just hardens it and they like stays put and it grips onto Wren when she like falls off a ledge believable good like it done an undeniable positive and that's a great scene when they're escaping across this bridge Wren it is falls through a plank he whips out his sword he's holding her dangling

below the dead are coming onto them they don't have much time he's trying to pull her up they like look into each other's eyes but oh no it's starting to slip at the last second will Wren fall it's really nice and you're doing the classic you have to let me go drop me no I won't do it um what I really like about that what I really like about that scene is that this separates the two characters and um what I’m waiting for is for both of

us to be stewing in their guilt separately and then like running to each other way later what happens instead is julian shows up in the next chapter because the moment he like got away after she fell he sprinted down the mountainside to be like I can't go get her and he's like are you okay I’m so sorry I feel really bad that I dropped you that's novel that's different I’ve never seen an extremely familiar scene happen like that and what was

so great about this scene and I think you just tip around it there but I just want to make it very clear when julian gets back to Wren one of his key things is he needs Wren to know that he didn't drop her on purpose yes like that's what mattered to him it's actually he needed her to know that she wasn't being betrayed by him and I was actually like well this is actually a really big step for your relationship in a in a more general sense

like yeah it it's convincing to me it shows that julian cares what Wren thinks about him and in a really good like in a really well way a way I don't often see the idea the real concern obviously Wrent's well-being the fact that Wren could sit there thinking he betrayed her is the worst thought in his mind amazing stuff social anxiety I get it yeah uh that was a good scene and it makes sense for their relationship takes a big step forward after

that that's convincing that's pretty good while we're down there after they fell off the bridge into the chasm no pun they discover this sort of city of Ghostsmiths and ghost smiths titled the second book are is this long-lost smithing art where these people shockingly control ghosts and control the undead and it's obviously incredibly powerful given this in the world where the dead always rise uh this is actually quite a nice bit

of the plot I like this bit of world building that like the dead always rise so in the dominion they have to send out the Bonesmiths to make sure they you know they don't when someone dies but also on the other side of the wall where the Ironsmiths are they have all these ways of like dealing with dead bodies like they try like throwing them into the sea and like burning them to like try and make the ghost not come back I like that I like that

element I always think there's a little conversation about like do other creatures get ghosts and i think there's a bit but only warm-blooded creatures yes how interestingly specific how did this get more to you duncan as a vegetarian I mean vegan oh that's right you've upgraded i forgot thank you thank you very much I obviously all creatures are equal if I say evil then that's a bit weird all creatures bear original sin as we know so they should all be baptized

duncan I only eat non-baptized creatures so um it means I eat buddhists all the time that's the stupidest joke I’ve made in this podcast yeah well well done finally just distracted me from what you said earlier what was it messy squishy what did they do making out sloppy style yes making out sloppy style yes it's only one buddha creatures but they make a point where if you like butcher animals properly or in the right time I just would

like to know a bit more about how this works because I’m like so if someone's like like no one dies alone in this world like if someone's on their deathbed or like there's an elderly relative in the community people must just watch them like a hawk like okay okay okay okay they're dead quickly get the people in get the Bonesmiths in yeah I mean the silver smith must just have them on speed dad be like okay go get them go get them I tried

oh my god can you imagine that if you're in like the hospital ward and you know you've been treated by the Silversmith and then he just stands up and the Bonesmith comes over he's just like oh I’m not gonna make it am I the person's like no oh that's sad yeah hospice carers this you just take you to the Bonesmith house you're like oh it's so gaudy it's covered in bones it's everywhere um what was I about to say yeah you don't

get a lot of taste of actually living in this world because it's all again describes to us distantly and then she leaves the world behind she goes into this other space and she doesn't even spend time in like the Ironsmith villages obviously most of them are dead but like the beyond the dominion villages she goes to one um but the rest of the time she's just in the wilderness and in like Ghostsmith places so you don't actually get a sense

of like community a sense of of society you know they're fighting for these big for peace between like disparate lands and these aren't these aren't real places they're empty we do go to this Ghostsmith fallen city this necropolis and in here we get this kind of major I’d say plot element hooked maybe from the next novel you could describe it as this is like well of magic we discover and in this scene is when we find out that all first hinted

at we basically find out it's blooming obvious at this point it's just a frog horn going brother twin brother to be fair when he was first introduced I’m like little brother but then the big twist is twin brother extra spooky what do we find down there dungan we find there is a well of magic a literal well of it this is like a whitey misty stuff and there is Wren's twin brother but we don't know that yet but we know that because they have the

same ring they were separated from birth they each got a magic ring anyway and he's making the revenants for their mother who is the corpse queen and they're all evil but he has a moment with Wren because Wren discovers she can control the undead and magic comes on the land and they must dig to get at the magic because magic is in the ground already the deeper you delve the greater magic you find do you think his name is going to be hawk

because he pointed a ring and it's like bird of prey I mean he pointed a songbird and he goes that's you Wren I mean I do think that's gonna be the case the only bet there is what so what what bird is it gonna be falcon I hope he's called california condor and now so do I so we get this discovery and and this is what's set up for the next book this book actually basically ends on the character of Wren setting out to destroy the source of magic

are you excited for that Geordie no one no no I’m not I’m not gonna read next book are we moving is this the interview episode is it snuck up on me completely I mean duncan no there is something I did like here a bit of world building fine I know it's dropped an exhibition exposition but I do actually like this little element it is established that this so this source of magic comes from the ground and we find this literally the well

of magic one thing that we also do touch on is the fact that only this island has magic like this is the larger world going on oh yeah that's right they don't all have magic like literally by being on this island you've become more magical and it's even unfair that the people who lived near the source of the material become the smiths so like all the Bonesmiths are descended from like gravediggers yeah some sort of weird magical osmosis they were

born from gravedigger um I mean this is this is stupid because there's the distinction bone and ghost is always pretty nebulous in this so the goldsmiths they were they were they were born next to a gold mine the silversmiths were born next to a silver mine you can guess the rest Bonesmiths were gravediggers but the first Ghostsmith owned a cemetery yes why why are these different is it literally just proximity to being in the dirt and not being in a dirt has that one

made the big difference I’m not even sure what difference I would have liked to have seen it seems a bit odd I have nothing else to say I’ve seen they lived I want to know why are gold smiths actually the ones in charge because surely the ability to find large amounts of gold would actually devalue gold I guess they can just control gold and therefore like not control gold like control gold like like metal bend it I mean like hide it and decide what the value I can only assume

that they firstly uh control supply so they they force a level of rarity and also I’d love to know whether the goldsmiths the miners who seize means of production who are actually near the gold or were they just the mine owner don't know what do you think about Silversmiths having anti-microbial powers so their role is being of a healer listen Geordie I’m not going to pretend that I know in depth how um how medicine works but I do think there is a level of bollocks to that because if

I’m aware if their powers are like any of the other people all they can do is to put in avatar terms as you just said is bend the material and I’m like well if I’ve got a wound filling it with silver isn't going to yeah do anything to it yeah yeah so silver is quite good for working on like surface wounds so you can for example if you have a cut you can put um colloidal silver on it and i think it is good for um preventing infection but you're right you can't close a wound so you'd be

really good at preventing infection but do they know what germs are they have the word anti-microbial germ theory is real so they know what microbes are they have germ theory but but how like because they wouldn't need to research this if they had a magical means this is nitpicking this is not a real complaint this is just something that's fun to think about they don't need to do medical research to find out what germs are because they can just cure it using magic so there's no reason to find

out what microbes are so they probably don't know what germs are so why so sometimes they'd be like i kept on pumping so much silver into this guy but he's still dying because they don't know what a fungal infection is or they don't know what cancer is because you can't cure cancer with silver people have tried they're dead and they're blue okay um that took a turn yes this seems a little bit ridiculous although people trying to say you colloidal silver are monsters don't listen to them

all I’m going to add to this at this point is that I watched avatar the last day of ender I watched legend of korra I loved them both very dearly and in that universe the next series has been announced I know I’m so excited I cannot wait this is actually I can't even know when korra finished it feels like obviously corvett it's like it came afterwards it feels more modern but at the same time so long ago I think 2015 maybe 2014 yeah that probably does line up that's a long time

ago the point I’m getting at is that in that universe water benders can hill with just holding water over wounds so if I let that slide I’ll let the Silversmith slide also we don't actually see any of them they're only referenced off page no yeah duncan I’m ready to end this episode i am too and I’ve got a bit of a funny statement to make my ending on I think I’ll can you go first because I think I’ll be more positive I think you will be more positive

okay I mentioned at the start of this episode that I re-listened to our episode on sisters of sword and shadow and I’m glad I did for a lot of reasons I really feel like that was a good coincidence of destiny in fact there were a couple of weird coincidences which lined up with my reading of this book one of them was the fact I listened to that episode again and in it we talk about how you know that book as a sort of introduction to feminist literature it sort

of serves a function it works well because if you've never read a book like that before and it's introducing you to new ideas around feminism that's a really useful book if you have experienced those ideas before it doesn't actually serve you a lot of value and it's not really worth your time in this book you got something similar because this is a really familiar story you have seen this story before and if you haven't you might well enjoy this book and if you have seen this

a hundred times before if you've read it and enjoyed it a hundred times you'll enjoy reading it again but I experienced something else this week I listened to a tim mension song that I’ve never heard before it came out last year it was made to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the sydney opera house it's called play it safe it's this song that tells you as an audience don't try and have cool original ideas just give people what they want it says don't try and come

up with these bold new ideas just do what everyone else does because then no one will point and stare and obviously by telling you to do all this stuff by barking these instructions in you it's criticizing you it's telling you be bold have great new ideas get it do something exciting and dangerous and weird and be brave about doing it so I was kind of primed after hearing that song and listening to it over and over because it's an earworm that this book to me it's kind

of reprehensible I strongly disagree I’m sure you do duncan I’m sure you do because this book is fine you know it's fine and if you've read it a hundred times before you'll enjoy it again but if you have read it a hundred times before don't read this book just don't just just read something else you know if you're thinking about picking up Bonesmith just try something different just be a little bold be a little weird try something strange that's what I gotta say

there's nothing wrong with doing things by the book if you do it well one of my favorite video games is dragon quest 8 ps2 classic dragon quest wrote the book on jrpgs he does very little new but it does it very very well another great story let's talk about one of my top authors robbie howard he wrote 21 ko-lan stories he was plagiarizing himself by the end but he was doing it well and they're still enjoyable Bonesmith does very little new nothing that you would have

seen before they were predicted but it does it well enough I mentioned at the start how when we did green rider I called it oh it's a 10 out 10 7 out 10 this is a 6 out 10 7 out 10 7 out 10 so short handful ya fantasy yeah it does what really matters well and I don't think that's been emphasized enough I think if you are a fan of this fiction go for it you know you like it it's fine to have comfort food once in a while and it isn't bad it's not insulting the ideas aren't dangerous

they're not rude in fact some of the aesthetic is not dangerous you're quite enjoyable because there is a bit of a unique flavor it looks different it's black vanilla ice cream you know how vanilla ice cream with the charcoal in it tastes like vanilla ice cream but it looks different that's Bonesmith yeah it's the same but it's got a you know a bit of its own aesthetic going on I think you'll remember it not in great detail but if you saw on the shelf you go I read

that and you'll probably be able to recount the plot maybe because it's like all the other ones you've read but it's still enjoyable I will be honest I’m probably not going to read the next in the series maybe if it's cheap on kindle and I think that's a bit of a shame because this because you've already read it no because this book does have you know it's just the first part of the story it very much feels like part one but unlike so maybe like I don't know children of

lomba all where is it going to go I know where it's going to go if it surprises me well done to it but it gets the job done and there's nothing wrong with that I enjoyed my time with it it wasn't a drag in fact it went quite quickly for me I knocked out that first quarter in two days and the rest of the series I read at a nice even pace do you know what it's nice to have a book that you're not thinking too much you can just relax into what's happening

i enjoyed my time with Bonesmith and I think listening to this episode you will know you know if you want to enjoy your time too if you have any inkling you're probably right and likewise if you have to if you're just seeing they're like well I’m not sure the answer's no like if you want to break into ya this is not the place to start although at the same time by making it the place to start is actually to be the best yeah no this is a fine introduction as well yeah I mean

it's better than a lot of the other stuff like I’d recommend this over throne of glass and like the subsequent children of blood and bone books I wouldn't recommend it over children of blood and bone I’d recommend you to read that first book and then just like rip out the last page and to be like happy ending hooray I’m certainly not put off by this offer I would read more from them i don't know it's better than malice I yeah is it better than malice I’m not so sure about that

it's better written well what more are you asking of a book geordie I don't know how to compare well here's well here's something I forgot to say earlier duncan is that um this book is more competently written than sisters of sword and shadow but you should read sisters sword and shadow before you know how to disagree that book is something to say no it doesn't no no that book has something to say that book has a reason to exist this book you know no no no no no no no no

no no stop right that's insulting right geordie sometimes people consume media like if you want to read something because it has something to say you would be go and read an actual textbook or work with a philosophy we're consuming a lot of fantasy media because it's enjoyable this book is enjoyable why what it is enjoyable yes it's but it's an opiate you know there are and you can find it a hundred times over go to your bookshop go to the ya yes the ya section look at the fancy

section there pick anything off the shelf you'll get the same experience actually if you've read all of them before don't go on and read this one too hard already had that experience agree you enjoy it at a certain point I enjoy the hobbit I’m not gonna tell no better example you enjoy lord of the rings oh well no point reading will of time or the the rift war sarka then it's the genre that's not comparable those aren't comparable to lord of rings this book

you're right maybe it doesn't do enough to stand out from the crowd it's just as good as the crowd in fact it's confidently written of all those books in the ys section I if we are standing there with a friend and he's like I want to read one of the books in the ya section I look at it and go well listen they're all quite similar and they're going to be on a spectrum of bad to good but you know what I know that Bonesmith is definitely closer to the good end of the spectrum

that'd be a safe bet for your mate and they go oh thank you I was like you know I’ll push through the first quarter and it gets better after that if enough they go if you are someone if you are someone who used to read a lot when we said this recently for dalagat dream department store not an amazing book but easy to get into if you're someone who used to read a lot you're looking for something that's enjoyable that's easy to get into I’d recommend this one I recommend this one quite

hard I think you will enjoy yourself if you exclusively read sarah j mass jennifer almond trout stuff like that here's another book your love don't read this book it won't change anything about your life you've already experienced that and you can experience it in so many other ways and maybe it's unfair that I’ve chosen this one to say that about because I could bring it up about fourth wing I could bring it up about throne of glass I could bring it up about I’ve forgotten

i actually I don't know enough about iron widow to forever I don't know so but surely Geordie we could go back you know what you should do instead of reading this book go for a hike go do a painting class you enjoy reading read something you enjoy this is like going back and being like oh you've you you read harry potter well don't bother reading any other person goes to special school novel you've already read one what's it's a genre it's fine to enjoy it even if this one is a bit

paint by numbers I’m not saying I’m not ruling out this book completely duncan what do you think the author was trying to say with this book hey guys I wrote another ya fantasy novel would you like to read it yes exactly like it it's you know what this is it's content you said that weirdly scathingly it's not art I pay netflix content every month for content yeah but there's good stuff not that I’m watching if you like if well don't pay for netflix duncan what can I say

you know you only have so much time in your life you have so much time you can commit to sitting down to read why read Bonesmith because I like it if you've written and people out there will like it too okay yes you could go on expedition to mount hevrest but if you enjoy classic ya fancy literature you are not going to regret your time with Bonesmith any more than you probably regret your entire life read strange the dreamer oh yeah read something that's a little bit outside

your bubble just step out step outside for familiar and then when you don't like it know that you can come back and read Bonesmith if you want duncan sure if you want to retreat and go back into plato's cave you can do that but take a look outside my girlfriend has a t-shirt you know what the thing of is about why why are you shows the word content content keeps you content and why would you want to be anything except content exactly I just want to say my girlfriend actually

has a t-shirt that literally just has the words plato please let me back in the cave top person well I’m not explaining plato's cave so I’m gonna wrap up now you know my thoughts I think we all know geordie's that's my philosophy geordie I’m gonna go listen to tim mitchell again well before you do that why don't you tell us what we're reading next week oh he wants to step outside his comfort zone so I was before I read this book I had a plan for what I was going to read

and I even told duncan because I said like we have to do it at some point so let's just do it now and that was going to be fourth wing uh but I just can't bring myself not after his reading I wouldn't be fair to well no I mean that's part of it but also I it wouldn't be fair to rebecca yaros i wouldn't be going into it in a fair state of mind because I would just be thinking that there's more you know slop for the masses so I’m gonna do one which I think is going to be a good book

um I’ve checked there's either my my girlfriend doesn't think this is fantasy but most people seem to agree that it is um and I’ve chosen watership down um okay I’m just going to let you in now that I haven't read the book I have seen the film and I would agree with your girlfriend but let's see what the book has to offer I mean it's about it's it's I think it is a fantasy it's an it's in the style of an epic that's definitely in its favor it's like bear war for

rabbits that is a great description and I hope that holds true I love having the argument what is fantasy so far I’ve I’ve selected 100 of the books that we have after reviewing them said okay that probably wasn't actually fantasy and I’m willing to take that risk again it's even better we do sight uh which is a book I read when I was a kid and I liked a lot that's also exclusively about animals but at least one of the animals is definitively a psychic who can see the future

past and present to be fair if the animals talk talking animals aren't real they're fantastical so it must be fantasy there we go that's what I’m saying I think the style of it is more significant here the way the rabbits have mythology right but I’m looking forward to this I’ve never read it before people say it's great I’m interested I look forward to finding out with you so if you have listened to our rambling rants going back and forth and want to pitch in please please do so

the best place as always is on our instagram this is a fantasy podcast love to hear your comments it really makes my day you can also email us at it's a fantasy podcast at gmail.com let us know do you like Bonesmith do you like ya do you think this is a good example of ya i would love to hear your thoughts I would really love to hear people go right I do love ya but these are the ya books that I kind of recommend over Bonesmith if you fall down that line or if you

think Bonesmith is a great time give me your arguments I can throw it in Geordie's face duncan um if someone said to you I’m a really big movie fan and you said okay tell me about the movies you like and they exclusively mentioned movies that were either diehard or inspired by diehard like olympus has fallen london has fallen I can't think of any more but there's a lot of them you know I mean speed speed two I’m really sorry Geordie would you say they're actually a fan

of cinema or would you encourage them to watch other types of action movies yeah I would tell them to step outside their comfort zone but like if they do step outside their comfort zone and watch some big emotionally driven beautiful piece of cinema for some reason the example in my head at the moment is the shore shank redemption where's like obviously you know do go for it but there's no problem with watching something okay wow oh gosh I have a new perspective but guess what

sometimes you're tired you've had a long day and you just want to cuddle up and have something that's comforting and Bonesmith is comforting and the thing is it is well written it's not amazingly written but it's well written it's delivering what you want to a standard of quality that i find very acceptable but duncan there are people out there who only read this type of book I’m not exaggerating I’m not creating a straw man that's just the way it is you know this is served up this

has been published because it fits into market trends it's palatable it's safe people read stuff like this because it's safe in the same way that there are people out there with the only movies they go and see are marvel films and by the same way there's nothing wrong with enjoying a marvel movie but you gotta learn you gotta step out you gotta experience like the wonderful the wonderful opportunities around there and in the same way Geordie that if someone came to me and said and i

was like oh oh do you read a lot and he goes oh I read so much I have read every book ever published by bernard cornwell I’ll go oh wow okay um do you want to try something different and they go oh what like I would make the recommendation but that person doesn't impact how much I would recommend sharps eagle in fact someone came to me read I’ve read every sharps book apart from I’ve never read sharps fortress I’ll go well did you like all the sharps books

obviously different yeah I’ll go well then you'll probably like sharps fortress you might want to read something else as well but that's not going to change my recommendation of sharps fortress to the guy who's just told me he likes reading all the blimsharks books I mean obviously that's not the same I think you know that basically the same you're talking about completion you're talking about finishing a series I’m talking about okay their whole sub genre of books which are just

the same someone who's read all the sharps books and goes I’m thinking of reading the saxton stories what if duncan you're talking about no but you're not you're you're moving to goal posts what if like 200 different authors were all writing about you know we're all writing different versions of sharp or different aspects of napoleonic war and someone only read napoleonic war novels well then I would recommend to them the sharps books because I’ll probably like them okay okay I’m

let's we've we've made we've made our positions clear let's wrap it up I mean I’ve asked people to hit us on the socials and you give them the new book this is actually a goodbye time so thank you everyone for listening to our extended rant on Bonesmith it's been a pleasure as always and we can't wait to join you next time for watershed down if it's a fantasy or not a fantasy actually do let us know I want people away on this argument early till next time till next time I’ve been

Geordie Bailey I’ve been duncan Nichol so long bye