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This is Into the Singleverse with Raj Verma. Unfiltered conversations about the latest trends and the tangible effects of real-time data on pivotal industries, our daily lives, and the future of our world. My guest this week is Van Jones. In addition to his role as a CNN political correspondent, Van is a change maker and a thought leader working towards building a better society for everyone.
He's the founder and CEO of Dream Machine, a nonprofit organization that is looking to change and create a harmonious society by tackling issues in technology, environment, and renewable energy plus prison reform and other critical 21st century issues. Today I had the pleasure of meeting Van and rapper Will.i.am, who co-hosted Make Wakanda Real, a tech summit that's shown a spotlight on how we can ensure that underrepresented and overlooked communities are at the forefront of the AI boom.
Van, welcome to Into the Singleverse. It's great to see you again. It's good to see you again, too. That was a great night and we had a good time. Yeah, it was truly a great night. So Van, we started a conversation which I want to actually continue. I'm an immigrant to this great country and I bring with it my own experiences, some good, some not that good. How was it growing up in America as a black man? Well, you know, I was born in 1968.
So that was the year they shot Dr. King, killed Bobby Kennedy, beat up a bunch of students at the Democratic Convention who were wanting peace in Vietnam. So the year I was born, they were trying to kill hope in America. But that wave of hope was hard to stop and it infected my parents and infected me. And I grew up in an America that was trying to racially integrate, desegregate. I went to public schools in the rural south.
In those days, black and white students for that decade, black and white students were actually in the same buildings together. It was segregated before and it's been re-segregated since because it's been so much of an exodus to the private schools. But I had the benefit in the 70s and 80s of growing up side by side with white kids. We didn't have much money, they didn't have much money, but we got a chance to know each other.
And that has affected me as a commentator on television, having grown up in a red state on the edge of a small town. I understand the Trump voters. I understand as a young left-wing student at Yale, I understand the Bernie Sanders voters. I understand a lot of different kind of people. But I'm so glad I was born when I was born, where I was born. I think I've got a good sense about where people are coming from.
I faced my share of discrimination, but I also was given a lot of determination by my family as a ninth generation American. And when the doors opened for my generation, we ran through them and we're still running. That's incredible. The one thing that, as I said, I came in about 20 years ago to this country and my experience has actually been great. I live in the Silicon Valley, where innovation actually happens. Not all of it, but some pretty incredible companies are formed there.
And I've just found America, and this is my perspective, but it does give an equal platform. At least it gave me an equal platform. Were all my experiences pleasant? Like someone says, you always energize certain experiences and then forget about the others. And it's typically the harsh ones that stay with you. And how you overcome those harsh experiences determines really how you turn out.
We see you, I see you as someone I look up to, both because of your articulation, because of everything else that you do that you hear every day, but also because of your courage and tenacity to be able to speak your mind. And that is a platform that is uniquely American. So share with us, if you don't mind, some of the experiences that you had to sort of let go to be able to sit here in your coveted position as an opinion and a thought leader in America.
I had all the same experiences that you hear about as a young African American man. Look, I'm in my fifties now, and I'm on TV, so people are pretty nice to me wherever I go. And I have a different life than I had. But you're a young African American man, you walk into a store, and people assume you're there to steal something. It's not a good feeling.
I remember when I had my son, Cabral, who's now in his late teens in college, when he was a little bit of a baby, when I would walk into a store and I had him, suddenly everybody was nice to me. And I was like, "Oh, I guess they figure I'm not here to rob because I have a small baby with me." And so people would relax and talk to me and be nice to me. And I was like, it was proof to me that, "Hey, I'm seen as a threat.
Just because I'm six feet one, I'm African American, I'm a man, and people, they've been trained to see me as maybe somebody who's going to do something negative. So I'm kind of guilty until proven innocent." Those experiences scar you. They really scar you, and you become defensive, you become hypervigilant, and it gets in the way of being the creative, imaginative, free person you were when you were a little kid and didn't know about all this stuff and had an experience with all that stuff.
So I've had to do a lot of work on myself to get back to just a reset moment in my own heart where I assume that whatever God placed in me that I think is good will eventually win out. I may have to work a little bit harder. I may have to reassure some people. I may have to get some other people who don't look like me to stand next to me to validate me, but I'm willing to do that extra work because I want to make a difference. I want to make a positive difference.
When I grew up, my heroes were Bobby Kennedy and Dr. King, even though they had been killed the year I was born. They used their voices, they used their presence, they used their whole life to make America better, to help people who didn't have anything. I don't want any of the scar tissue on my soul from mean people that said mean stuff a long time ago to get in the way of my contribution today and what I can do for tomorrow. But it was not easy. And everybody doesn't get there.
Look, I've been rewarded because I had great parents. Even though I went to public schools in the South, we had great teachers. We didn't have any resources, but we had resourceful teachers. We didn't have many resources, but we had resourceful teachers. I was able to go to Yale Law School. I was able to become a – I was able to teach at Princeton. I was able to be a fellow at MIT Media Lab. I've done all the great stuff, but I came from a very different place.
And that tenacity you're talking about, it didn't come from me. It came from my parents, my grandparents, who went through so much worse than I did. And they didn't give up. They sharecropping and cleaning other people's houses and all those difficult things. My father joined the military in the middle of Vietnam just trying to get out of poverty. They had the tenacity, and they gave me the opportunity.
And yes, I've had my bad days, but I've done my best to put them in perspective and keep pushing. You've just been incredible. I remember, you know, I grew up going to a private school in India. We called them public school, top school in the city. Dad was in the army. We didn't have much, but we had access to a lot of resources. So I had a pretty decent life. And then I leave India, and I come to America. And this is a true story that I haven't shared with too many people.
I had an American boss who walks into my office, and he sits down, puts his feet on my table, and he hands me a can. And I'm like, "What the hell is that?" He says, "Look, man, I don't know you, but you fucking Indians stink. So here is a can of deodorant. Make sure you use it before you come to work." This is 25 years ago. And you know, I actually initially thought it was a joke or a prank. And then I realized he actually wasn't joking. He was mega serious. And you know, it's so funny.
I actually, I had that moment to react as to how I would react to this. And I still actually have that deodorant can in my bathroom that I will never throw away because it just shows how lack of information, education, and exposure makes people feel so absolutely belittled by people who are in positions of authority and power. And as life has been much like yourself, and I still have my journey to take, as life has gotten a little, how do I put it?
As I can probably influence more lives, that can of deodorant is something that I look at practically a few times a week to ensure that I'm never as rude or almost borderline cruel to people that are, that don't look like me, feel like me, talk like me, or behave like me. And so yeah, this, I just shared the story just in the sake of reciprocity. Well, I appreciate you saying that. And first of all, that's horrible. And that is, that is cruel.
And I think that what I would say to somebody listening to that story and to you is, you know, in my faith, we would say, God meant that for good. Breakdowns can become breakthroughs if we use them right. You will never be cruel in your life ever again because someone was cruel. Now you're in a position of leadership and authority you're gonna be so much kinder you turn that bad into good you turn that evil into good.
And i think that's what i want to say to anybody who suffering from discrimination or feels that they've had a somebody had them a bad deck a mean can of deodorant a dirty look an insert insult a slur. Don't do those people the favor of letting that then let you become better.
And stop you from doing what you're supposed to do the most important thing we can do is just what you did take that can of the deodorant put it on the mantle and every day when you walk out of your home say i'm going to do good for people that's the only thing we can do. Is to is to turn all this pain into promise for other people and and i'm glad you told that story is a terrible story but you've done great with it.
Yeah but you're right i think it motivates me just basically propelled me and and you articulate it so beautifully that you know it rather than breaking me down gave me a breakthrough which i think has made me a better better human. The one thing i'd love to understand from your take your views on this is you know i've lived in six different countries and before i got here and.
No country has more of a innovation platform or innovation culture than America, it has all its problems and it has all its challenges it truly is to me one of the greatest countries in the world, if not the greatest country in the world.
And especially when you take the platform that it offers for innovation, especially here in the valley it's just incredible incredible it doesn't matter what you say what you wear how you look as long as you have a smart idea it is appreciated and i have a narrow view since i live in the valley. What do you think spurs that culture of innovation there the valley in America has led the world in innovation for the last hundred hundred years or so where does where is that basis of your opinion.
We get to cheat we get to cheat we get to steal all the best talent from around the world you know when you see when you look at the olympics the chinese team comes out everybody there is from china the Kenyan team comes out everybody there is from Kenya the Italian team comes out everybody there almost is from it from italy when the US team comes out.
We got every color in the rainbow every color in the skittles bag we look like the muppet show because we got all the talent from everywhere so it's hard to lose when you get to steal all the best talent now the problem is you have people now want to close off America and say we don't want to need these geniuses to come here we don't want any hungry hard working people to come here when i keep them all out and now i gotta be stuck trying to win against the world with
people i went to high school with i'm gonna tell you right now.
People in high school with are not going to beat the world i want people from around the world to come here okay this is reality i want people to come from around the world and keep us going i don't understand why people are anti immigrant when it's the immigrant population is coming in here refreshing over and over and over again that hunger that drive that determination that innovation people are so happy to get away from wherever they came from where everything was you know locked down and
bureaucratic and you know who where you were born and who you could bring in here. You were born and who you could bribe and it was more important than what was in your heart in your head now i think you might overstate this case a little bit to the extent that you know it there are barriers are not fair even in silicon valley. You know if you're a female if you're a person called there these challenges are still there but.
The opportunity is unmatched even with those barriers even with those scars and scratches the opportunities on mash and i think too many people in america forget that number one on the right wing. My conservative friends please remember we're stealing the best talent don't think you're that damn good you're not that good i'm not that good we got we're stealing the best talent and people on the left wing please don't forget is for all our our flaws and scars.
I don't i'm trying to find a better country i think one i can't think of a perfect country i'm trying to try to think of one where if you can deal with all the. Some of the disappointments of the biases that exists if you can figure out a way to internalize that in a way that empowers you and doesn't disempower you the upside opportunity United States is unmatched and so I think both wings of our political discourse are missing the point.
This is this is a. it's a. What we have here what we've been able to do here in the United States. You think about. Liberty and justice for all just as a concept, the right wing likes liberty individual rights limited government the left wing likes justice, you know up with the poor and the oppressor whatever.
You put those two things together in the right balance you get liberty the best of capitalism and justice the best of idealism you put those together you have a great country and i don't see another one like it. Absolutely to to sort of questions that i have just because i think you are. The right person for me to be educated on I hear from the right wing media.
That one of the biggest reason why they get support for their anti immigration policy is because immigrants come in and heighten up crime right. And and you have been involved in in a prison reforms, etc. How how what's your answer to a right wing statement which says that we are for stopping immigration because they they escalate crime and we feel unsafe around them.
Just not true I mean on a per capita basis the our immigrant communities are the least prone to crime now you might say well you know they come here without paperwork they're committing a crime every day, but the kind of crime we're talking about violent crime drug drug crime on a per capita basis they're the least likely to commit crime.
Some of the populations at the right wing targets like say the muslim population they have the lowest crime rate the muslims they have the highest educational attainment for women they have the highest business formation rate. The muslims are basically the model american community if a muslim family moved in next door to you you would say hallelujah because the chance of your kids getting in trouble just went way down those kids are going to be studying and doing doing the right stuff.
So and then we talk about you know mexican american kids and folks from south of the border yeah some of those people who come in here doing bad stuff but they're not doing best up by themselves they're doing best up bringing drugs supplying drugs or which are the massive demand here because of problems on this side of the border with a big demand for drugs but it's a mistake even focus on that because of vast majority of people who are coming here coming here for work.
People who are coming here coming here for work they're picking the fruit that and the best for you today they're working the service sector they're working in the construction sector listen i tell people all the time. Do you have a house yes does ever rain yes you ever had a leak in your roof yes well. Who do you think is fixing the roofs i'm here in california every roofer was not born here nine states.
On the person who's watching your grandmother right now the nursing home probably was not born in the united states. Other person is watching your kid right now a day care play wasn't born in the united states so you can say i'm pro immigration i'm pro grandma's and babies and roofs getting the help they need on the net all comes people not born in united states. So some of this stuff is just foolishness.
Yes there's some bad people in the immigrant community they're bad people in the non immigrant community as well does bad people in every community but you don't throw the baby out with bathwater. What you why don't we expel all the why don't we spell everybody in the domestic person united states because some of us commit crimes with that makes sense would you want to push every.
Law binding american citizen often the ocean because some of us commit crimes no well then why are you going to turn fair the whole immigrant population because some of them commit crimes. This is become kind of a tribal. dividing line inside the united states which doesn't have anything to do with being fair we need immigrants.
The innovation comes from there the the energy comes from there the passion comes from there and you really want to leave all these good people in other countries compete against us. Yeah you're dumb I don't want it you're not happy in your country come here and make us better if you can start your business over there please come up here start here you know that's that's that's that's what's keeping us competitive it's not the people I went to high school with I tell you that. love that.
You know I'm a father for and. The sort of the all Americans and. They grew up feeling American they are American they are kind giving. Naturally well educated and they have an optimism for the future that the use of technology will make the world a better place all right. Two of my older kids are pursuing data science and cal berkeley.
And the two others in high one in high school one is too young and they are extremely optimistic about how they will partake in the use of technology to make the world a better place the society a better place and serve. The underprivileged the vulnerable in society and I know you're a big proponent of how I and the upcoming technologies would level the playing field for the underprivileged the underserved the downtrodden.
In in society please share your views and on how you think that that's going to happen. Well it may happen it may not it's it's it's up to us you know reminds me of the story we used to talk to tell us in church where a little kid has a little baby bird in his hands and he goes up to the wise man and he says the wise man is this bird alive or this bird did in my hand.
And the wise man knew well he said the bird was dead he would open his hand and let the bird out if he said the bird was alive he'd crush the bird and then show it was a dead bird so it was a trick question is this bird alive or dead. So what the wise man says is well I don't know for sure the answer but I can tell you this it's in your hands it's in your hands so it's in our hands it could we could have a great.
We could have a great future we have a future we can imagine or it could be a disaster it's in our hands and I think it's important that those of us who. Frankly want to see disruption need to see disruption you care about poor communities. The school system needs to be disrupted the way we educate poor kids of the health care system that needs to be disrupted. The community safety level community safety that needs to be disrupted.
But those communities by themselves don't have the power to disrupt those systems that are not serving them at the same time the technologists they have the power to disrupt everything you look at AI you look at biotech you look at quantum computing you look at all of the technologies. That are just exploding right now they have the potential to disrupt everything but what for what purpose.
It just greed and speed you just want money just want to be first you want to compete your competitors well you got a lot of power you don't have much purpose. At the same time you got communities have a lot of purpose they need to disruption but they don't have a lot of power but if you bring those two trees together. You bring the technologists who have the power to really rethink and disrupt and redesign everything but they don't necessarily have a strong purpose.
With the people who lack that power but have that purpose now you've got something special. Now you can start using this technology to uplift communities you start using this power to really tap into the great potential of every child on earth you got the ability to deal with climate change you got the ability to deal with.
Chronic diseases got the ability to deal with nutrition you got the ability to do so much with technology if it is allied to the people who need a different newer and better system. It's just a lie to the people who have money for big contracts and who try to figure out only how to be commercially successful but they don't care if they're doing well while they're doing good.
They're doing good while they're doing well well then you might have a disaster but I have a great deal of confidence in this young generation because they're so aware like they do know about the problems of the world they do want to live meaningful lives. They wanted to do well and make money but they also want to do good and that's really the hope in the future so when we say make Wakanda real for all you Marvel fans you might see my Spider-Man up there.
For all you Marvel fans you may remember Wakanda is the the country from which the Black Panther comes and it's a technological superpower but it's African people with you know they're all their traditions and all their beauty and all their culture but they also have technology.
Well that is what we should be trying to create around the world indigenous people black and brown people poor people let's make Wakanda real let's put technology in the hands of communities that have been left out overlooked underestimated help them bloom first. I guarantee you whatever you do with technology if you have a little bit of an orientation for the people who are usually overlooked your technology is going to be better your market is going to be better.
Your technology is going to be better your market is going to be bigger your feelings going to be prouder your brand is going to be stronger it's a lot better to use technology in service of the best in people and that's what our whole make Wakanda real campaign is all about out of dream machine. Yeah it was great being playing a very very small part in that I enjoyed that evening and in our interaction that I think and I'm sure I'm going to get this wrong but.
I think you have the belief that if you could join the four pillars of federal government education and I forget I think political will and Hollywood which you know provides the culture you can actually do a lot of good I'm sure I got one of those four pillars wrong. That made a lot of sense and I do think that generative AI for one does have the ability to connect those powerhouses and if we have the will to point it in the right direction with the right.
Purpose I do think that we could do good but I naturally butchered but I'll give you an opportunity to really share how you think of that that future. Well. Right now there when we talk about four pillars of power. You're right federal government. The power of democracy the power of government but that's only one power you mentioned Hollywood media that the power storytelling the other two are what I call Wall Street.
Finance you know that's a big source of power in New York City and then in Northern California where you are technology it's actually a map of the country. You know you look at the Bay Area that's where the technology power is you look at New York City that's where finance is you look at Washington DC that's where government power is you look here in in LA that's where media story to tell it those four. Could be brought together those big powerhouse centers brought together for good.
There's nothing you can't get done and it's you know listen it all those are complicated power centers and have their internal dynamics and what but just from a conceptual point of view. Remember we have all the power that we need we've got the tools that we need the technology that we need we have an open system for innovation of an open system for political change.
We're set up to do great here and we have this incredibly diverse young generation that's bringing so many different points of view to the table so many different ideas the table. I just want to make sure that we keep that optimism keep that keep our spirits up it's so easy social media you know you'll drive you crazy you'll be depressed and just. Distressed or distracted or divided.
We should be using these things as tools and not toys for distraction tools to bring us together and solve these problems and and I think the young generation. Has a real real opportunity I think people in our generations have to hold the door open form and help them and support them, but I think you have a real opportunity. We know change is coming.
We know change is coming nothing is going to be the same 20 years from now 10 years from now look 25 years now I didn't have a pager let alone a smartphone I mean I let me 25 years ago I didn't even have a beeper. I think we have fax machines 25 years later I mean you can learn anything you want to just sitting on the beach with your phone so where are we going to be in 20 years in 25 years we can't even imagine it.
Let's make sure we're bending it toward good let's make sure we're bending I can't make change anymore in the last century of the good lawyer good activist I could make change. You're going to make the change technology is going to make the change by the time of Senate subcommittee finishes introducing all the senators you've updated my phone five times that's a looking back so the changes coming from technology.
So the question isn't how do I make change the question is how do I make the change that's coming help more people. How do I make the change the technology is going to drive help more people that's this century's question not how do I in government I as an activist I as a protester I as a lawyer how do I make change that's the last century.
The new century is how do I make the change the technology is going to bring help more people and that's what make what kind of real is all about recognizing the power of technology government has a role to play but it's going to play a much smaller role overall just because you guys are going so dag gone fast the government's not going to be able to keep up anyway let's make sure you're going fast in the right direction.
You know in this time next year we would know who the next president of our great nation is there's a lot of trepidation around that. And on both sides right and and we we think those two. Two sort of options are pretty dramatic in terms of the outcomes and what's what's your prediction and how do you think it affects. Specifically what you just said you know we will have a lot of power through technology and channeling it for good is going to be more important than ever ever ever before.
What do you what do you think is yeah if you had a crystal ball this time next year Raj and Van are having a chat what do we see the world looking like. We got some challenges now because there's something called World War three wherever that looks like we will say. It started these past couple of years. Because what it looks like is lining up is the democracies. United States European Union Israel.
On one side of the kind of a divide and then on the other side is starting to look like China Russia Iran North Korea. And you start to see proxy battles break out between those two camps Ukraine is something of a proxy battle Hamas. And you know the fight you know what's going on over there something of a proxy battle because Hamas is supported by Iran Ukraine supported by the United States.
You start to see proxy battles break out along these different lines and divisions and but we have imperfect democracies going up against. Pretty from my point of view scary autocracy that seems to be the clash the problem that you have this. If you dip into a more authoritarian direction in the United States. If you don't support Ukraine in the United States if you don't stick up for civil liberties and civil rights for everybody in the United States.
You advantage on the world stage the autocrats the authoritarians. I think that's a bad outcome because you really want actually more democracy more openness more innovation more freedom. Maybe you get enough energy to solve all these problems when it comes to you know poverty and pollution and everything else.
So I worry I worry that this bright future I see as possible through technology does require some stability on the world stage and does require the continued expansion of democracy and open societies and not the collapse thereof. Long way of saying. I worry about the election that's coming up. Look I work for Joe Biden when I was in the Obama administration I worked with Donald Trump on criminal justice black colleges and opportunity zones.
And I work for Barack Obama and I was successful in getting George W Bush to sign my green jobs act and I even was successful working with Bill Clinton as a young guy. So I work with Republican Democrats everybody knows I'm as bipartisan as his left wing Democrat can be. So it's not that I'm hyper partisan sometimes you need to change a party but you don't want to change of direction away from democracy.
You don't want to change a direction away from open society you don't want to change of direction on the global stage that leads democracy at risk in Europe or in the Middle East. So this is a this is a great challenge and I don't make any predictions at all. I don't make any predictions at all. I'm not optimistic I'm not pessimistic I'm determined. I'm not optimistic.
I'm not pessimistic I'm just determined that we have the future that your kids deserve and my kids deserve some that's about politics and that's about economics and it's about technology some is about innovation so it's about just telling the right story. I'm a storyteller.
The right story if I could write it myself would be next year we get close to the edge of looking at what it would mean to have radically less democracy radically less rule of law radically more susceptibility corruption in the United States. And we pull back from that. Whether it's the Republicans that pulls back of Democrats that pulls back that we that we pull back from that and we recommit as a country both parties and people outside the parties.
That at least the United States rule of law matters democracy matters of society matters tolerance matters inclusion matters innovation matters and then we recommit to that because we don't do it here I worry about the rest of the world. Well my friend this has been an energizing conversation very very very well said.
I hope you make your flight in time it's an absolute pleasure to be with you this afternoon and also look forward to supporting some of your you know initiatives that you that you lead it'll be a privilege and an honor to do so. And stay well and be well. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the podcast if you enjoyed it don't forget to subscribe to automatically receive future episodes.
Additionally I would greatly appreciate it if you can take a moment to leave a review helping others like you discover the show. I'll see you next time stay well and be good. This was into the single verse with Raj Verma to learn more about Raj please go to Raj verma.com. This is a single store podcast production.