Did We Detect Dark Matter… or Fool Ourselves?

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Speed up your hiring with a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. For a hundred years, we've sensed the presence of an invisible force, dark matter. first proposed by Fritz Zwicky in the 1930s and later confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt by Vera Rubin herself. What would the universe look like without dark matter? Galaxies would still form, but

They'd fly apart. Their outer stars would spin off like sparks from a pinwheel. In 1933, Fritz Wicke noticed this problem in galaxies within the Coma Cluster. The visible matter couldn't account for the galaxy speeds he observed. He called it Dunkel Natiri, dark matter. Decades later, Vera Rubin found the same mystery in spiral galaxies.

Stars far from the center weren't slowing down. Rotation curves were flat, speeding up an astronomical anomaly begging for an invisible explanation. Imagine two galaxies. one governed by Newton's laws alone, and one with an unseen halo of dark matter. In the dark matter-rich galaxy, stars at the outer edges orbit almost as swiftly as those near the center.

This observation is a cornerstone of the dark matter hypothesis. It suggests not only that there's an unseen mass enveloping the galaxy, but that the dark matter would produce a telltale heartbeat revealing its presence. This iron ball is heating to 3000 degrees. As it glows, it's radiating light across the electromagnetic spectrum. We can see it, we can measure it, we can interact with it. This is normal matter, behaving exactly as we expect.

It's dark and it's matter, but it's not dark matter. In most of the universe, it's nothing like this ball. Picture this. You're hunting for something that makes up 85% of the universe, but you've never seen it, can't touch it, and you... aren't even sure you can prove that it exists. Your detector sits a mile underground colder than Antarctica, waiting for a collision that might happen once in a decade. And when it finally does, you're not even sure it's real.

That's exactly what happened to my guest today. And what he discovered next will completely change how you think about the invisible universe around us. I knew this time I resolved since I was an undergrad student in 1995. From an experimental point of view, other experiments, almost all of these experiments that are more sensitive in Dharma have already excluded that particular signal. Imagine Earth plowing through a cosmic headwind of invisible particles.

Dark matter particles. As our planet circles the sun, we glide on a helix, riding through that dark matter wind. Sometimes we push against it, sometimes it blows with us. In March, the Earth trails behind the sun. By June, it charges straight into the stream. The signal peaks. Six months later, the Earth swings around, moves away, and the wind slackens. It's then when the signal dips.

And then the pattern repeats, orbit after orbit, year after year. This annual rise and fall is the telltale heartbeat scientists have been searching for. The faint whisper of dark matter. And this signal is what the Dama-Lieber experiment claims to have seen, not just for one or two years, but for nearly the past 30 years.

The signal that piqued Caixuan's interest 30 years ago was produced by the Dhamma-Libra experiment. It shows the tell-tale pulse of our cosmic dance around the sun as the sun itself moves around our galaxy. The predictions of the dark matter model match exactly on what Dhamma Libra has observed. So why don't all of Kaishuan's colleagues agree that Dhamma has made the definitive detection? Right here.

on the campus of UC San Diego. Scientists are working to see the invisible, the missing matter that makes up most of the matter in the universe.

What they do is very complementary to what scientists using cosmic microwave background do. We're all on the same team, although it's claimed that scientists competitors have seen a dark matter signal. for over 30 years. This signal remains controversial. We'll explore the nature of that signal, how it was made, how it was first detected, and why colleagues are very skeptical about it.

will interview the primary players in the new generation of searches, using liquid noble gases like Xenoc, fighting against backgrounds, man-made, natural. and cosmic in nature. We'll reveal the techniques and technologies that spin off from this research in a fascinating way that this research into cosmology and particle physics may pay dividends in helping. maintain peace, detect rogue nuclear weapons, and even prevent a nuclear war. All this happens not far from UCSD's

famous Uri Hall, named after Harold Uri. It's famous for many things. He was the first person to detect and measure the properties of deuterium. which plays an enormous role not only in particle physics, but in cosmology as well. The abundance of deuterium is one of the best pieces of evidence that we have that the Big Bang occurred. Its abundance ratio...

matches almost perfectly the expectations that one would get from an early universe which is extremely hot, extremely dense. A fiery furnace fusing proton to neutron. That may seem implausible. How can a neutron, which is neutral, bind to a proton, which is possible? Well, that's what Harold Urey figured out. Measuring heavy hydrogen. Paving the way for the measurement of tritium.

which is radioactively unstable. When we've named our building, the chemistry department is named after her. Won the Nobel Prize for his discovery. Before we dive into the controversy that's been tearing the physics community apart for 30 years, you need to understand what's at stake here. If the Italian experiment we're about to discuss is right, Dama Libra, it's the discovery of the century. If they're wrong, it's the most persistent false signal in human history.

And what makes this extraordinary? My friend, Professor Kai-Suan Ni at UC San Diego is about to tell us why he spent his entire career trying either to confirm or debunk a claim that inspired him as a 20-year-old kid. back in 1995. That was 30 years ago. Three decades. His whole life's obsession. And the signal, well, it's still dividing scientists to this very day. The universe would look very different without dark matter.

galaxies would spin much slower than they're observed to spin. The Earth following the Sun trails at a much faster rate than would be expected if there was no dark matter in our galaxy. what the current thinking is of this experimental result. They claim 20-sigma detection. They've measured it since 30 years now, and yet...

they're the only ones that believe it so what is the state of perception of this result within your field is it a detection is it definitely not a detection or somewhere between um Yeah, I knew this time I resolved since I was an undergrad student, right, 1995. And that probably triggered me to come to the U.S. to study dark matter. But still exists now the conflict with other experiments. And so from an experimental point of view,

Almost all of these experiments that are more sensitive than Dharma have already excluded that particular signal. So they detect something, but something might not be dark matter. might be some background that remain in the air detector. Can you explain the principle behind the annual modulation technique? So annual modulation is really coming from like dark matter. The dark matter is in our galaxy, right? It's on the Earth. And the sun is moving around the galaxy, so it has a speed.

So basically the sun has a relative motion with the dark matter halo, we call it. And the earth is rotating around the sun, right? So in June, when the earth is rotating in the same direction as the sun, the speed is relative to... The dark matter halo is larger than in December when the Earth is rotating in the opposite direction of the sun. So that different speed making the event rate different in the detector in June.

december there could be a five ten percent of variations as we call annual modulation so if we detect such a annual modulation with a lot of beds that could be a confirmation of you know dark band

as there could be because there are other backgrounds but also largely at the same pace such as the cosmic ray and neons interacting at it Those three experiments are all in the northern hemisphere. Is there a plan to build an identical copy of Dahmer or something cosine vase in the southern hemisphere? With an annual modulation? Yeah, there's bozos trying to build a...

For example, I believe the SABA experiment in the sun in Australia has a certain hemisphere. Could make, you know, the modulation, maybe the phase different compared to the... the other hemisphere um but that expand is you um you know upon there that's beauty yeah

Hold on to what you've just heard about seasonal modulation, because in a minute, Professor Ni is going to reveal the technology that makes his detectors fundamentally different from the controversial Italian experiment called Dama Libra. What he's about to describe sounds like science fiction, a chamber that can fingerprint individual particle collisions at the atomic level. It's like CSI particle physics.

And that fingerprinting capability, that's exactly why the physics community is so divided about the 30-year-old claim of success by the Dama-Libra experiment. No other event in... Scientific history has lasted so long without confirmation and yet been accepted by so many as being truth. Can you explain the way that Xenom... detector system your experiment works. What is a dual phase time projection chamber, TPC? So we use a dual phase. We call it dual phase.

time projection chamber is mainly a liquid phase is the main target for interacting with the dark matter and above that is a gas phase and we need a gas phase because we want to amplify the signals The document detect very low anti-signal in the liquid Xena and then produce ionization. And this ionization had to be drifted into the gas phase. So any tiny sub-kv event can be amplified. One electron can be amplified by a hundred times, a thousand times, turned into light.

And then we can detect these tiny energies. That's the main advantage of Dufet. Time projection sounds very futuristic. What does it actually mean, time projection of chamber, TPC? So it's... First, you know, we have one interaction and then ionization starts to drift, right? So there's a time. So we will know the time and this time tells you the event position in this direction.

So that's where the time comes. And projection, sometimes you can also think of as, you know, in our case, this event will eventually... will be ionization charge will be drifted on the top, and it will give you localized signal. And this localization gives you the kind of a position in this direction, XY direction. So that gives you kind of projection.

okay and so it's very different than the uh than the dama experiment dama is scintillation dark matter if it exists comes in and there's a reaction that causes a pulse of light effectively correct that's right i might use the scintillation we also use scintillation you know before the ionization chart drift we also have a direct scintillation but we have two signals so these two signals will tell you

actually the difference between manning background from the actual signal. DAMA, I believe, is just using the scintillation, because the crystal is actually a scintillation crystal. Their scintillation crystal is also very pure, you know, very clean. And they detect these scintillation pulses and try to look for them into whether...

They cannot tell the difference between a nuclear recoil or electron recoils or backgrounds, but they can just count how many events to the lowest energy possible and then use the modulation as information. I want to pause here and give you some perspective on what we're talking about. The interaction Professor Nied just described

A dark matter particle hitting a xenon atom would be like a mosquito flying into a freight train and somehow leaving a trace in the freight train's trajectory that we could still measure. The precision required is almost supernatural. And yet he and his colleagues, team, and friend, including past guest Elena April, have built machines that can do exactly that. So if they're so good, if they're so sensitive, why can't they confirm a signal that's been reported?

since Bill Clinton was president. So we mentioned, though, some of the concerns about the DAMA results or reproducibility and confirmation. Why has it been so hard for other researchers to confirm or refute the DAMA-Libra results? I think one thing, the mental point is you need to get very clean crystals, very pure crystals. If your crystal is having some radioactive contaminants, that continuous emitting background, then basically you cannot see as clean as Dharma can see.

The technology actually accompanying maybe it's not, you know, open to the public. So other people who want to use this, the same type crystals. For example, I believe Princeton University actually grow their own crystals for the SABL experiment. So if you were to meet a hypothetical student who is interested in working on DAMA for their PhD, how would you advise them?

What would you say to them? Oh, working on Dhamma or working on Saba, for example, a confirmation. First Dhamma, yeah. I would advise students to say, look into the data. really understand the background at the lowest energy possible and see if there's any systematic or other background that we haven't found or the collaboration hasn't found.

to see that can also produce a modulation signal. That could be, you know, a very large contribution to the community if you, you know, still want to work on the DAMA experiment. How does Xenon's, your project, how does it handle sharing data, making data public or accessible to the community? Does it or does it keep it proprietary?

you know the data we take you know that he mentioned that petabytes of data is the initial is very you know not noisy and full of you know contamination you have to understand or detect in order to use that data so even agree to a public it's typically use. But we do all kinds of data selection cards and eventually produce these selected events and that we use them to produce

so-called limits, we don't find dark matter. And these data, once we publish our paper, we describe all the methods, and these data are also attached to these papers, making them public. So people, for example, want to check our signal, check our signal detecting efficiency, you can look at this data. If they want to use them to constrain other type of dark matter models, they can also use this data.

And if people are interested in a more experimental part of our background, then I would welcome to join our collaboration. Yeah. Here's where the story takes an unexpected turn. quite frankly, keeps physicists up at night. While hunting for dark matter, Professor Nee's team stumbled upon something they never intended to find. Particles streaming from the core of our sun, passing through your body right now, completely undetected.

They filtered petabytes of data. They used machine learning and AI to identify patterns and found exactly 11 events out of millions of possibilities. The amount of haystack that needs to be thrown out. to find that one needle is truly extraordinary. This is detective work at the level of individual atoms, and what they've discovered makes finding dark matter, unfortunately, even harder.

What is the most significant source of contamination or systematic effects, both in the laboratory and in the cosmos, astrophysical systematics and terrestrial systematics?

I think mostly background, right? I mentioned, you know, the backgrounds coming from all kinds of sources, from detected material and from astrophysical sources like neutrinos. So in our current generation experiment, most backgrounds coming from detected material, say radon in the xenon, and it depends on what type of a signal you're looking for. But for our next generation experiment, solar neutrino will become one of the dominant backgrounds.

You mentioned there was a recent detection and publication, in fact, I think, about the solar neutrino detector properties of xenon. Can you explain that result? So the sun produced abundant... neutrinos right and from the pp fusion and there's a reaction chance so they are producing different kind of neutrinos we call them pp neutrino we call boron 8 neutrinos and different energy different spectrums

And last year, the paper we actually released is observing about 12, 11 neutrinos from so-called boron-8 neutrinos. And these neutrinos produce a nuclear recoil in our detector very low energy nuclear like about keV and very different to detect and and we managed to do all kinds of analysis techniques, including machine learning, you know, trying to filter out all the noises. And eventually, found 11 of these kinds of events.

Out of total 37 events, we detected another 26 backgrounds. And these are the results we call a first detection of solar neutrinos in the liquid xenon detector. That makes our experiment in the future will be more difficult to observe dark matter around 6 GEV, which produce the same. type of spectrum as the boron-8 solenoid in our detect. Speaking of precision,

Professor Nee is about to tell us about witnessing something that happens so rarely, it makes winning every single lottery on Earth look like the odds of Manny Machado hitting a home run. We're talking about nuclear decay. Nuclear decay with a half-life, probability of reduction by half, longer than the age of the universe. And Professor Nee and his team, well, they caught that happening multiple times. So if they can detect something with this...

Impossible. Rarity? Why does dark matter mystery elude them? Um, about three years ago when you were first on my podcast, during COVID, four years ago maybe. Oh yeah, I remember that. It was a detection of a very rare decay or some very rare nuclear process. Can you explain that and what the latest findings are from your research on that? Strontium, maybe? Yeah, I remember. So there was several observations in the past five, six years. One is so-called double electron capture.

of xenon-124 element in our detector. And that's a very rare decay, you know. Electron capture is very often, but double electron capture, having two electron captures at the same time, it's very rare. The half-life of that process is 10 to the 22 years. It's very long.

That's probably the longest half-five detector we detect directly in a detector. At that time, I think we observed about three, four sigma, and then later, you know, we created more data, and now it's five, six, even more than that. Other experiments like PANA-X and I believe LZ also see these signals later.

um and this is just standard model process just very difficult to detect that's the double electron pepper we observe but i think one thing that we actually talked about is some excess signal coming from our very low energy electron recall from a xeno-1 ton experiment. So at the time, you know, actually a grad student from UCSD, King Changye, he's a professor. He...

And another student from Chicago, they found some access signals in our electron recall, not nuclear recall, electron recall background. trying to expand with all kind of background we know, and there's still the excess. And eventually we think maybe these could be some background we don't know, we didn't cut into. For example, tritium. That's weak. But, you know, that tritium amount must be very low. We couldn't detect them. So that's one possibility.

But there could be also more exotic explanations, say, the neutrinos may have a magnetic moment, the solar neutrinos may have a magnetic moment.

that can produce a higher rate than we expected or maybe solar axion. So that's the paper we wrote and trying to explain excess. We don't have... We didn't have any conclusion, but there's some possibility for the excess. What you're about to hear is why I love experimental physics. Professor Ni's team thought they may have detected something exotic. possibly solar axions, or neutrinos with magnetic moments, the kind of discovery that would re-write textbooks. But then…

Then they had to build a cleaner detector, and unfortunately for them, their signal, their possible Nobel Prize, well, it disappeared. Perhaps for the time being only. But honestly, this is how good science works. It's exactly the kind of story that I love to tell, and that makes the 30-year Dhamma-Libra controversy so frustrating, but also so energizing. So later, you know, after the COVID-19,

We assembled a xenon-antone experiment. This was larger, cleaner. We made a lot of effort trying to remove, you know, to heat a detector before we actually feel xenon. trying to remove this kind of trading if there is anything exist, right? And when we start taking data and much lower background, we didn't, the excess is gone. We didn't find any excess.

means, you know, the explanation of trillion could be the right explanation, not solar axion or solar magnetic, neutrino magnetic moment. So that's like kind of a... I think, you know, for example, we mentioned about Dharma, right? If there's excess, you could explain with dark matter, but there could also be background. And in trying to do more experiments, trying to...

prove or refute such hypothesis. And that's what we did from Xeno 1 ton to Xeno N ton. We claimed our signal and now we are looking for example when we detect collect more data, continue to looking for solar neutrinos. How can a neutrino, which is neutral, have a magnetic moment? Well, in the... Standard model, a neutrino may not have a magnetic moment, a very low timing that we would never see, but there are some exotic theories here on a standard model that has a larger magnetic moment.

That's physically trying to see. If we see such kind of Parchmech MO, that could be something new. And how does it compare to like Zeppelin and Lux and the other, you know, double beta decay, neutrino-less double beta decay, which look for the electron spectrum? Right. There are different isotopes. And for... For people using Liquid Xenon, that's the Xenon 136. Like Nexo Collaboration, LZ Collaboration, they all have this Xenon 136 elements. And even dedicated, for example, Camelot Xen.

And, but, you know, for LZ and Xenon-N-Ton, the element Xenon-136 now detects not enough to get the same sensitivity as the dedicated interoperability experiment. But in the future, Xenon and LZ, and also the Darwin Collaboration Europe, will join together to build a so-called next generation XLZD experiment. that eventually contains 60 to 80 ton of liquid xenon, natural liquid xenon, and that will contain about 6 to 8 ton of Xenon-136 elements.

That will push the neutrinos with double beta, half-fives, you know what, to have to limit about 10 to the 27, 10 to the 28 years. Wow. And there will be a very sensitive experiment in that process as well. This is Dr. Brian Keating. Hello. These are the students, Bao Xin Yang and Da Chen Liya. Three from Columbia University. Okay, well. Yeah. They are senior graduate students working on the Xeno. Yeah, and you was my student. Oh, really? Yeah. We're future detectors. And...

You know, in our dark matter search experiment, xenon is located in the underground lab in Italy, Gran Sasso underground in Italy, and it's a huge tank full of liquid xenon. total about 6 tons of the Cuisino and the target waiting for dark matter interact-ins. But here you see it's a very tiny detector, right? So, but really similar, you know, we have a cryogenic system, we have purification system.

We have data position system. And here is a little detector we're trying to build for, you know, for different applications. Is that like a prototype or is that... Okay. It's also for dark matter, for neutrinos or some other? They want to use it for detecting reactant neutrinos. The neutrinos can also interact with the detector producing signal very similar to dark matter would produce.

So you're trying to use the same principle of detector, but reacting to the very low energy and produce nucleic oil, very low energy nucleic oil, very difficult to detect. Yeah, so... I have another setup downstairs in the high bay, which is slightly bigger than this, that will eventually be built as a reacting neutron detector. So you could find our xenon, the xenon is contained in these.

high pressure bottles and because they are expensive so we don't want to lose time and and usually contains bottles and we have about 10 kilograms in the lab right now.

Yeah, so I'm working on the Xenon-Anton experiment, which is a dark matter direct detection experiment. It's located deep underground at LNGs in Italy. So our experiment has a lot of subsystems, but the core of the system is a so-called dual-phase liquidzine or time projection chamber, or the TPC. So, you know, when a particle gets scattered inside the TBC with the xenon atom, it can generate both simulations and ionizations.

So the signalations or the prompt signalations can be detected by the top and bottom PMT arrays. In this system it's silicon PM. The prompt signalations can be detected as a so-called S1. And we also have applied the drift field, so the ionized electrons will drift upwards and reach to the liquid gas interface, and finally be detected as S2. So from S1-S2 we know quite a lot of information like we can reconstruct the event positions, we know the energy, we find the S1-S2.

But most importantly, as Professor Kaixun just said, we need to discriminate our signals from the background. And in the wave search, the dominant background is from the beta decays or the gamma from the materials. So these background events are so-called nuclear electronic recall events. And because WIMP is expected to be electronic neutral, so it should be expected.

to be nuclear-recovered events. So the key of the Zeno-Illantime experiment is to discriminate electronic-recovered events from the nuclear-recovered events. And for these two different types of events, or the recoils, their S1-S2 ratio are different. And this brings a lot of power to distribute the signals from the background.

And S1 and S2, that's self-interactive. Can you explain what S1 and S2 mean in this context? Yes. So the S1 and S2 mainly means, so in our analysis, it mainly means the size of the pulse. You know, the S1 and S2 are both simulations, but the S2 simulation is from the drifted electrons and is proportional to the number of electrons. But anyways, these are both photons, and be detected by the PMTs, and you have the waveforms from the PMTs. So in our analysis, the S1 and S2 usually means the

size or the integrated area of this pulse is. For example, our primary goal is to observe the wind dark matter and their signal is large, relatively large, than the neutrino interactions. And without this triglyceride system, we might not be able to observe those very low energy signals or the S2-only analysis or S1-only analysis without this trickless PQ. You can just take a look at it here.

I imagine this is a so-called radon reduced clean room that we build for building the next generation experiment. So as I mentioned, a radon isn't one of the Darwin background for us and for any low background dark matter or neutrino experiment and the radons continue emanating from the materials, right? And so we want to make sure all the material put into our detector is very much controlled in terms of radon emanation. So this is especially a clean room.

and you see inside the oil, you know, metal coated, and make sure the energy is very less. And even the air, you know, even in our normal air, there are radons, right? So...

We have special radon removal system if you want to take a picture here. This we inherited from an experiment called the XO200, a neutralized double beta decay experiment that measures neutrality, you know, Majorana particles. so this is now is retired and we use it to clean the air here and then pump the ridon remove the air into the cleaner yeah

So this is Professor Liang Yang's lab. Okay. Give me a quick tour. I know. We'll see you around. Yeah. I'll get him next time. Yeah. He's building some electronic rhythm. Sometimes you can beat. swords into plowshares. We're about to see how the search for cosmic mysteries leads to very earthly applications, benefits, and truly hope for us to wage peace. The Pentagon looked at

this dark mannered detection technology and saw something else entirely. A way to monitor nuclear reactors from a distance. To verify treaty compliance without ever setting foot inside a facility. This is how basic research, fundamental research, can pay unexpected dividends. It's what happened in my field, the cosmic microwave background.

or building sensitive detectors to explore the wispy radiation from the big bang eventually led to advancements in cell phone communications technology professor knee's project is funded by darpa The same agency that gave us the internet. We all know what a benefit that's been. This has a different type of benefit. One, perhaps, to help us seek peaceful resolutions to potential nuclear conflict.

This is the apparatus actually we are building, and we call it neutrino detection with xenon. We know the xenon detector now detects the solar neutrinos, right? We want to use this detector technology for some application, for example, detecting neutrons from reactors. We can monitor the reactor fuel, you know, remotely, not very far, 10, 20 meters away. and the detector is set up like here. Let me just open this. So the principle is very...

Much the same as a documentary detector. You build a cryogenic system, you have a detector vessel, and you have calibrations and trying to purify the Xeno, more or less the same. just you know eventually want to contain uh less than 100 kilograms in on here place a very close to a reactor core And then we start to see a lot of reacting signals. Could you use this for like weapons detection or trees violation of nuclear?

you know, proliferation, things like that? That's the main purpose. Like, you want to measure the component fuel in the nuclear reactors, you know, not, you know, from using neutrinos. and to see the compositions, making sure the component inside is not changed during some down period. That's the eventual goal. So is this funded by DOV or? It's a DARPA program. Yeah. But yeah, I had a three-year program and yeah, we built it set up for, yeah. So let me just, can I cut through? Yeah.

So there's 100 liters, you said? Eventually, like 100 kilograms, we usually say a kilogram mass, yeah. And more or less, this system is rebuilt based on the documented technology. Yeah. And so what is your, is this his thesis? No, no. He's from Columbia. He's a visiting student. Yeah, this is actually my former student postdoc helping review the system and he already left.

They got a professor sitting somewhere else. And now students are working using this setup, actually, to build something useful for new channels. Wow, there you go. Yeah. Very good. Very nice. Here's what we've learned today. For 30 years, one experiment has claimed to detect dark matter. For 30 years, increasingly sophisticated detectors have failed to confirm the Donald Lieber claim.

We've seen technology so precise it can catch neutrinos from the sun and witness rare nuclear decays that on average take longer than the age of our universe. But dark matter itself, well... It's still invisible, still undetected, still undefeated, still the greatest mystery in modern cosmology. 85% of the universe is missing or made of something we've never seen. That should be humbling.

But it should also thrill you, because if most of reality is still hidden, imagine what else we can discover. If you want to see this technology in action, in detail, check out the documentary on Professor Keating Experiment's channel. Links in the description. Or click here. The search for dark matter isn't just about finding particles, it's about building the tools that reveal the invisible architecture of reality itself. And that search? Well, my friends, that's just beginning.