Welcome everyone to this edition of Amy and TJ. Today, we are talking to one of the biggest stars of one of the biggest and all time greatest whose series. And it's one of the only shows that TJ and I don't watch together.
Why is that?
Uh, you know what? I don't know?
And I am so curious to hear what he thinks about this, because, for whatever reason, it just naturally I didn't gravitate towards this show. I respect it, I loved the actors in it. Not Why did I not?
I really don't know.
I think it's because men are pretty dang evil. Most of the men are like, ridiculously evil in this series.
Can I tell you how that could be intimidating to men.
I didn't know the plot of the show until recently. You broke it all down for me, and I said, oh, that's it.
Elizabeth moss Is is this star this show? Of course, we're talking about the Second Tale. And you've watched a lot of things that she's in.
You like her, you love her. You watch things when you see an actor or an actress that you respect, but you never I don't know we're drawn into this.
But you've gotten me on board now and I can't wait to watch. But we're talking to one of the few good guys on the show.
You this this is fun.
Actually, So this is the final season for any fan out there, you know, this season six, the final season of The Handmaid's Tale. I've watched every single episode religiously. And our next guest was started on season two and he was a recurring character. But you know what, it's got to be such a huge compliment when you're a you're a recurring character, and you're so good that people want more that you then become a main character seasons four, five and now season six.
So I think maybe people can piece together.
We want to welcome the amazing and talented Sam Jager aka Mark, one of the good guys of The Handmaid's Tale, to the podcast.
Thanks for being with me.
And let's say congratulate. That's a hell of a compliment. Really, she explained, that's a hell of a compliment, an incredible setup.
Can you set me up for every interview I do for the rest.
Of my life unless you hide girl, I'd be happy to but no huge fan and seriously, I was actually so curious as an actor and even maybe as a human when you're on a show that truly is about, perhaps even a cautionary tale of what evil and power and misogyny can do to a society, to.
Play literally one of the only guys who isn't evil or a rapist, or you name any horrible thing you can think of about what the worst thing a man could do, and you're one of the good guys.
What's that feel like?
You know what's so funny is I'm still like, for the first few seasons I was on this, people were still like, I don't know about this Mark guy.
What's his.
And I think because they've been so maybe scarred for so many horrific antagonists on our show being white men, I think they were like, oh man, this guy's going to turn on everybody. And while he is very political, I think that's what you know. They people don't know where he stood for a long time, and hopefully by this final season they know that Mark is truly a guy who's trying to save what's left a democracy in this horrific landscape.
So you said, people are still trying to figure it out, But what was the turn? Is there anything you would point to as a turning point or maybe even an episode people really reacted to.
What was the turning point?
Do you think where maybe the writers the producer saw more in you or was it always expected that you were going to take on a larger role.
I think I think they just kept bringing me back because they liked the chemistry I had with Yvonne, and it was an interesting side that we didn't get to see from her. You know, her character, Serena plays this kind of matriarch within Gilead, which is this you know, government that's religiously you know, kind of centered that has taken over the United States and now most of North America.
And so it's one of those storylines that they thought, oh, we can see a little more humanity in this woman who seems so evil and evil.
It's about you, said, matriarch. I was thinking self righteous, b I d H. And it's true your character made us feel something for her because you saw a number of goodness in her right.
Well, you know, when I first got this this role, I looked back at the only scene that had a flashback of her, and it showed her before Gilead, and yes, she was kind of self righteous, but she was also this powerful feminine in a way and I thought, that's that's the woman this character is going to fall in love with and try to hold on to who that is and still hope for that. And one of the things I think Handmaid's Tale has gotten better about is the first seasons and throughout it is it can be.
I don't want to say it's hard to watch, because it's a pretty riveting show, but it's it's visceral, and it's it's you know, it's pretty gripping and graphic and engaging. And so I think one of the things that they, you know, that we liked in this early, you know, early on was Mark comes in and he's got this this compassion and this humanity and this this hope that
our show I think needed, you know. And here we are in the final season and we're you know, kind of congratulating and rewarding our fame for sticking with us this long because it is.
It's Sam, because I hadn't thought about that at all, but you did offer, like that hope that all men aren't terrible.
I mean, there are a couple like Luke. The character of Luke.
Is it is it a good guy Nick, even though he is with Gilliad, is also a good guy.
So there are a few of you, but so far, so few and far between. Yeah, I would say a single character on the show is evil.
But I hadn't thought about how you were able to bring out a warmth to the character of Serena that you know, she was the woman that everyone loved to hate for the first couple of seasons because she was just so terrible and so awful. Uh, but you actually were Are you one of the few? I guess You've got the love story with Nick and Elizabeth Moss's character uh in June, but you're kind of the only other love story really in the entire series, I suppose.
So, yes, yes, And you know what's interesting is the show. What I loved about that dynamic. The show is written that these two characters are so protected and so diplomatic and love to be the smartest person in every room, and I think that's what they're kind of drawn to about each other. And so it's kind of almost like Victorian writing. You know that these two you can get a sense that there's an attraction there, but they don't
come out and say it. And we kind of keep that going throughout our series, which is I think what makes it even more intriguing because it's not like Luke and June or June and you know that we can see them, you know, kind of navigate one another.
You'll use words what, riveting, captivating, visceral to describe the show. And I'm again I've admitted here I haven't gone through the seasons like you have. What is the what is the upside the takeaway from the show. Does it leave people at some point at the end of the seasons with some message or some feeling of hope, Because I'll admit Sam so much of what she's explained to me like whoa, that's heavy.
It's fear, it's cautionary, like.
Why would watch this? Yeah? Yeah, you know, I think one thing I love and one thing I keep trying to get across as we, you know, share this last season with fans is the show I think was vilified early on as this sort of anti right wing or anti conservative show, and at its core, it's really people
trying to be compassionate understanding. It's a diverse cast, and it does show kind of a cautionary tale for what happens when we try to corral people in a democratic society, and so there are a lot of parallels with what's going on nowadays. But the underlining thing for me growing up in you know, I went to church. I sang in the church choir from like sixth grade until I graduated high school. So that was a part of, you know,
my upbringing in Ohio. And the thing about the main characters, Serena, although she's very you know, I've spoken about her very rigid view of faith and God, June is always seeking God and trusting and hoping, and that's her faith in a higher power. And that's one of the things I think has gotten lost over the years and one of the things that for me, you know, I keep coming back to. It's not trying to look down at people. It's trying to say, this is if you were in
this scenario. And this is the great thing about TV. You can't do this in film is show nuance. In film, it's either this guy's a bad guy and that guy's a good guy. But we get to see how people who are you know, who are fallible, still tried to make amends. And that's one thing I love exploring with our show that I feel like our show does better than almost any other show.
Thank you saying that was a bunch much better sales job than she gave me, and to me, thank you for that.
Now, okay, but.
That really was a beautiful way to describe the arc of the show as well. I mean, the first season is just like but then honestly, you came in second the second season, and I feel like that did bring in some.
Of the art. Did you hear how she did it the first season was that's usually her sales. To me, man, that's a sales bitch.
Obviously, you would have had to have watched the first season, I would imagine, at least after or at least before signing on. What did you think of the first season compared to the others when you jumped in.
I was just so taken, first of all, because it's so stylistically dynamic compared to any other show, you know, And a lot of times you'll see characters in the like the bottom corner of a frame and then there's a giant window behind them or a giant wall, and it's just the way it shows all people kind of kind of confined by even the frame we're watching them, and so everything is really just almost set up like a painting and so I think that can be That's
the first thing that I noticed about our show. But I just feel like they they updated a book that was written, you know, when I was a kid, and it made it present day. It made it, it made it more urgent. It made it also feel like this could happen to us at any moment. And so I think that's one of the things that's that's hard for people because they keep coming back to, oh this could
you know, this could happen? Or is this happening? And that's always a conversation with our show, and that's also you know, the fun thing about our show is that's a conversation or our writers have with the audience, you know, because.
It's so true.
That's what all of us when we're talking after we watch, like could that happen here?
Oh my god?
And for people who don't know specifically who your character is, you are a representative of the US government that's in exile because this Gilead, this community has taken over all of the United States, where women are property, they have no rights, and that's a very broad stroke there, but
you are representing what the US used to be. How do you engage in those conversations, because, especially in today's political climate, but certainly even when this show began, that's got to be something that people come up and talk to you about all the time.
How do you handle that?
Right? Well, you know, I got into I got into acting because I love, you know, I love understanding people that aren't like me. You know, I grew up. My siblings all do something different. They're all in service, you know, one's a nurse, one with a guidance counselor and works with a church, and ones in an officer. And I'm always referencing, you know, I always pull from those stories. And my job is to empathize with people that I
wouldn't normally empathize with. And you know, if the great thing about being an actor is I have to try and figure out what compels the other side to make the choices they do. So while I don't often agree,
I do understand where things are coming from. As hard as it is, it's my job, and I think hopefully one of the things that we do on our show is try to offer that conversation with people and show what it's like for people that don't look like like us or have the same you know, religious identity is us what it's like on the other side of the fence.
I'm curious how that happened your your siblings, right, nurse, guidance, counselor officer, I mean literally out there saving the world. Really tell me I explain those dynamics. Clearly your parents are doing something extremely right. But how do they all up end up there? And here you are.
Well, I'm the baby of the family.
Ah, so you could, you could do.
Whatever you want.
And I was also ignored, you know. I know my parents just love and we're fascinated and continue to be fascinated by what makes their children tick. That it's not just me that it's you know, although I have kind of an extraordinary path. They love what my sisters do, when my brother does, and they support and have an interest in that. And that's one thing that I try to carry out with my children. I try to figure out what they love about living and nurture that. And
so I'm grateful to my parents. You know, I almost I grew up thinking, you know, when I was a young actor starting off, I thought, man, you know what, I'm not tortured enough. All these great actors have all this background where they had horrific, you know, childhoods with abusive parents, and I kind of need that. And now all these years later, I'm like, no, I don't have
any baggage. I get to come to something and not feel like I need to protect some aspect of my personality to perform, right, you know.
That's good parenting.
Right, And even on a show, Sam, you're on a show that every guy is bad and you're still the good guy.
It sounds like you can un in and you know exactly right, that's awesome that you're meant to play your entire life? What is what's when you have a show that heavy and that dark? What is it like when the cameras aren't rolling among the cast?
Do you do you? Is it? Is it? Do you break the tension with laughter? And and uh frivilty?
Like? What is it like behind the scenes in between all of the acting?
So fun? I mean, people on our show not only are have all of us directed. So we come to it. We come to it like what's the best way other story? You know, we get we get out of you know, we try to get as much ego out of the way as possible. We're protective of our characters and where their journey is. But we also trust the writing at this point, and we just show up and uh, everybody works, you know, everybody is good work, and they come in
ready to ready to play. And on a you know, on a show that's so serious, I feel like, boy, I don't know if we'd survive if we were really heavy handed Courtard so no.
Med acting going on behind this?
Oh thank goodness, Oh my god.
I mean I was wondering, you know, I mean, how you handle that? Because that is some heavy stuff.
You know, it's so funny. I love I actually love a lot of method acting and actor but I've worked with one or two and it's so much work, not just for them, but I was a method actor and I saw we were doing this scene and I saw one of the camera crew say his name as his actual name, and I saw ooh, and he got up and walked around the room and I saw him like whisper in the camera guy's ear to you know, to say his character's name.
And he was like, oh, I'm so sorry, sorry of course, And I just thought, man, this is way too much work for everybody else. How about you just show up and pretend because you're already like there's if you're gonna be that method, just what you're going to walk into a room and be like what are.
These cameras doing in here? Like just if you're gonna be method, then just to be like, what what am I on a stage? I'm in I'm in seventeenth century England? Guys, just get over yourselves.
Yeah, okay, all right, that is I.
Take don't take yourself so seriously, right.
No, because you have to be exponentially better at acting to have people be like, yeah, I'll work with that guy again. But he's like, I mean, you got to be like Daniel day Lewis, where it's just like, okay, he's unbelievable. So we can put up with that because the product is amazed.
It's so funny, you all time favorite actor.
So yes, and I knew he was a method actor, but to your point, yes, he's kind of earned the right to be that because it's just that good.
And I think also a generous and kind spirit as well. So I don't you know, you know, they're not all you know, it's like Gilead, they're not all bad on the hand.
Fail see, he has done such a better job of pitching this show. Well, he's got me very curious about the show. Can I pick it up in his seasons and be okay? Or I need some backstory season.
Two I can tell you, and you know how I love to talk. Oh yeah, fill in the blanks for you during a quiet moment.
I don't know if you want. I mean it needs to be. It sounds like it needs to be your show. You need to find a way to make it, make it.
Makes a good point. Okay, help us with that?
All right there, I assume you have to get the Yeah, plenty of fans out there, plenty of folks probably come up to you on the street. Do you what is the divide between your male and female viewership? It was hard to find it online, But what's your understanding of the number? Is the percentage of female viewership versus male?
I'm sure it's female driven, but I think it's a show that couples like to watch to get some couples.
Other couple, sam great, yes.
Other couples. Yeah, can't can't do it. But yeah, I actually don't know the numbers. I mean that's yeah.
I wish more women come up to you than men, obviously, probably just because they think you're cute. But would you say that's a fair statement.
I wouldn't even say that that. No, I don't get I don't. I'm pretty daft when it comes to people hitting on me. So I I've always been just and even as a celebrity, I walk around and when people like smile at me, I just assume they're being overly nice, not because they recognize me from something or you know. But as for the as for the fans who come up, I would say it's I would say it's fifty to fifty.
Really, whoa, that's why?
Now do you get recognized more for The Handmaid's Tale?
Maybe because it's recent or from Parenthood.
That's still probably fifty to fifty you know, a little more for Handmaid's Tale in the last couple of years.
But that makes sense that are you surprised by just the still kind of rabid fan base that Parenthood still has. I mean, I'm reading people are constantly asking you if you'd be participating in a reboot or a sequel or people want more. I mean that show ended ten years ago, correct.
Yeah, I think it remains relevant because people keep having babies, so we're always trying to you know, figure out. You know, we want something that feels like am I insane? Or is this job absolutely ludicrous? Because every time my wife and I had a kid, it's like two years in we're like, wait, how have we survived as a species? Like this is so moments of this are so unbearable that I don't know how our species was able to be like, hey, let's do this again, but without fail.
We always forget because babies are adorable and because we get the value eventually that we're just like, yeah, let's keep having kids.
You know, I know, I saw a survey. I think it was ten. We're all parents here.
Mine are much older now, twenty two and almost nineteen actually this weekend. But I saw a survey that said people I think they surveyed people in their fifties and said people who were happy, what their happy quotion was, And resoundingly, people who didn't have kids were happier. No, and.
I've read those I've read those studies as well. But my submission is this, Yes, they're happier, but if you have a child, your heart basically you know that the DNA DNA of being a parent is I'm going to give bring somebody into the world, and basically my heart is going to go walking around on the outside and just knowing that there's always in trepidation, a caution and a worry that goes along with being a parent, which I think accounts for you know, you know, i'd you know,
and I'll I'll happily trade that for the joy that, you know, the bittersweet joy that these boys bring me. I mean, oh my gosh, sometimes they're just talking to me. I got, I got, I got three sons and a
step daughter, and my boys even at every age. You know, if you have the right perspective as a parent, you're just like my teenager says things that are so adorably teenage, you know, like only a teenager could say that, and so you know he's got to relish whatever stage they're at, because it is fleeting for sure.
What are the ages there in the house.
So I've got quite a gap. We've got an eight year old boy, a ten year old boy, and a fourteen year old boy. And then my stepdaughter is thirty, so, oh my goodness, and the poor thing. She has two brothers on her dad's side as well, so she has five five brothers.
Oh my goodness, you get all those numbing the numbers together still eight ten, fourteen and thirty thirty, Yeah.
That's a gap. Is a thirty year old upstairs in the house too?
And no, thankfully she's in he's in DC with her husband, and I don't worry about her, you know, putting her clothes on in the morning and you know the water, So that's great.
I do love how you put that that the worry that does it does weigh on you. And then also the guilt for me. Maybe I don't know if that's just moms, but it's like that constantly. But those moments, I would also say they're happier because sometimes you don't know what you don't know, so they don't know what they're missing.
Is a is a one way to look at it.
To all those folks that don't have kids, Yes, but.
Maybe they're laughing at me because they don't know what I'm missing.
Yes, single fifty, no kids, that sounds.
Awesome, free existence with a much bigger bank account.
No, do you really think there's a fifty year old single folks run around going yay, I'm so glad I never got married.
I'm glad I never had kids. Oh yeah, they look great.
Okay, I didn't know that.
So all right, So what I know you said, You've you've got some directing on your resume.
So what's next?
Where do you uh, where do you want to take your career? Handmaid's Tale the last episode.
We haven't seen it yet. We're very excited about it. But what's next?
And how did it feel to say goodbye to this juggernaut of a show.
Yeah, well, I mean I chose a nomadic career, so trying to figure out what's next is always you know, trying to make peace with being momentarily unemployed is part of the battle and just and just accepting. You know, this is a rare time I get to be home with my kids after traveling to Toronto for years. So you know, I'm I'm I'm writing another project that's a film noir set in Los Angeles, and and that's a that's just kind of my you know, part of one
of my favorite kind of genres of film. I realized, and this is weird, speaking of like, you know, terrible men in our you know, in our I realized earlier on that all of my favorite films are the same film, which is about some guys trying to save a woman that should not be saved, and they're all film noir, like the conversation by Coppola or Vertigo or in a town where you're just like, I know where you're headed, but just don't Yeah, just don't know that that direction.
So film noir for me has always been just so fascinating and I don't know what it says about me that I'm you.
Know, you'll say that's exactly his role in.
You literally just described your character's role with who was trying to save a woman?
You just described.
Yes, yes, I don't know. Maybe this is good that I didn't put these two together until after I've done shooting this whole series. I mean, maybe I gone into every scene like, guys, we can't my character wouldn't say this, or I can't go down this road. I'm glad. Oh, I'm glad we're doing this interview now. Yeah. Oh, And you know, finishing up the show was was so wonderful. I got to be especially these last two episodes, I feel like are great television and I'm so excited for
the fans to watch. But I got to be a part of some scenes that are one of some of the most important of our series, and they're goodbyes that not just with my but other characters. And you know, I just it was I'm so grateful to be working with these people. You know, to work on anything period as a miracle as an actor, but to work with people you admire that you know are good people out in the world, that's so rare.
I love just hearing your enthusiasm for this lifelong career you've had and your gratitude for it. And I'm so excited to watch the last couple of episodes. I think the last one drops May twenty seven for anyone who wants to know. But I also I think t J and I can pass along sometimes what it's like to have even unexpected momentary lapses in employment.
We experienced that a couple of years ago.
And the cool thing is it breeds creative new doors. You know, things that you weren't even expecting could happen or what happened to and you find yourself in the position that you never thought. So I think sometimes those moments are the greatest ones of our careers because you get to go into a new direction that you might not.
Have even anticipated.
What we could have used as counsel two years ago.
So you guys, I've landed in the right spot, I think.
Well, we know you will too.
We cannot wait to see what else you have in store for us, because we will be consuming it. Sam Jager, it was such a pleasure speaking to you. It was so lovely to get to know you as a person and to know you're almost exactly like your character, which is kind of cool.
A good guy guy, well, who should not rescue women that don't need rescue.
Well, congratulations on all your success and we can't see can't wait to see what you do next.
Thank you. Thanks for having me bank carry that