Hello, bridget here, and it has been a minute I have missed talking about the intersection of technology and identity and democracy with you all and the cool Zone team so much, and popping back in to share an episode of the podcast Be the Way Forward, an exciting new show from anitab dot org, a global organization for women and on binary people in technology. I was the inaugural guest on the podcast, where I had a great conversation with host Brenda Darden Wilkerson, President and CEO of anitab
dot org. So take a listen and subscribe to be the Way Forward if you like it, Thanks so much, talk to you soon.
The fact that a very narrow band of the population besides most of the tech that we use and see each day, it's kind of a crisis. I'm Brenda Darden Wilkerson, CEO and President of anitab dot org.
Our mission to ensure.
That the faces of those who create tech mirror those of us who use it. That's where Be the Way Forward, a new podcast from anitab dot org and me comes in. I'm talking to the change makers to deliver the powerful and empowering conversations we all need to hear. Join me and let's be the way forward together. My name is Brenda Dartin Wilkerson. I'm the president and CEO of anedab
dot org. We are a very large organization that's dedicated to empowering women, non binary people, and other underincluded people in the industry that has the greatest impact on how we see our lives, which is technology. You know, we're known for the Grace Hopper Celebration, which is literally the largest women in tech gathering. Women come from all over the world annually to get together.
And what we.
See happen there is when people get together with ideas, they find their people, they find their space, and amazing things happen. New businesses are launched, people find new opportunities, those relationships are built, and out of it comes solutions and most importantly, hope, what we hope from this podcast is instead of that happening annually, it's going to happen all the time. So we're going to talk about the
stuff that's problematic. We're going to talk about the things that are making us little nuts, but we're also going to talk about the ways tech really was envision to be.
It was envision to be a space.
Where the dreamers and the doers and the makers could imagine making our lives better, making the world different, finding ways to solve problems. So these conversations are about put it in us, back in that place where we dream, because when tech works, it has to work for everybody, and that means that everybody needs to be at the table.
So as we kick off.
The series, I can't think of a better voice to join us on the first episode than Bridget Todd. She is amazing. She is the founder of Unbossed Creative, a studio champion social change through digital content. She's also the host of season six of Mozilla's podcast IRL, All About AI and one of my favorites. She's also the host of her own critically acclaimed podcast, There Are No Girls on the Internet. She's been in the trenches doing the
important work. She's got some important things to share. So, without further ado, I bring you my conversation with the insightful and ever inspiring bridget Todd. So, Bridget Todd, I get to speak with you today. I'm so excited and I would love for you to tell our listeners who is Briget Todd and.
How did you become you?
Oh? What a question.
I'm first of all, I'm really grateful to be here, really excited and honored. Yeah, bridget Todd is a big weirdo who became herself thanks to the power and an openness of the Internet. You know, I always say that the reason why I care so much about technology and social media and the health and safety and state of our Internet is because if it wasn't more of those things when I was growing up, I certainly would not be who I am.
You know, I was this.
Little weirdo kid in the middle of mid Lothian, Virginia, which is small town you probably haven't heard of. It's a little bit more developed now, but it right outside of Richmond, Virginia, and I grew up feeling like a little alien. And if it was not for the Internet and the power of expression, the power of using the Internet to safely connect with others, I don't think I
would be who I am today. And so I want to make sure that the folks who come up behind me also get that freedom of expression and self exploration that I had to become who they're going to be. But I know we can't get there with an Internet that is full of garbage.
How I came to be who I am.
I love it. I love it. Okay, so two weirdos here. I feel the same.
Way, right And you know, I'm going to count that as one good thing that tech is doing, right, if it could free a soul like you and give you the power.
To have the impact that you have.
Okay, all right, one one on the good side for it for the internet right now. So you've got this podcast it's called there Are No Girls on the Internet.
First, why did you call it that?
Oh?
I called it. I called my podcast there Are No Girls on the Internet because I could not conceptualize a future where I would be saying this ten times a day. And it's a real mouthful.
No, no, I mean I it is a mouthful, but no.
I called it that because when I first started getting really into the Internet, you know, on message boards and things like Reddit, I came across what they call one of these like informal rules of the Internet. I think it's rule number forty seven, which says there are no girls on the Internet. And so there are sort of two ways of thinking about that rule. One is that there is like literal there are no girls on the Internet. If you encounter somebody who says they are a woman online,
it's actually not a woman. That person is lying to mess with you. That's one kind of literal interpretation. The other is this idea that our identity does not matter online and we get online, whatever identity markers we have, we leave them at the door. And the thing is both of those things, either iteration of it, are incorrect. Marginalized people, women, queer folks, folks of color, black folks. We have been on the Internet and at the earliest
foundational stages of technology since the very beginning. It would not exist without us, And so I kind of realized, Wow, I have let myself believe this lie for so long that people who look like you and I are outliers online, when in fact it is our rightful domain. And if we don't hear our voices or hear our stories our perspectives are presented, that's either because we were overlooked or intentionally erased. And so the name of the podcast is
sort of reclaiming this idea. When people say there are no goals on the internet to I want to have an archive, that's like, oh, here we are expressing our perspectives and talking about our work and really taking up space when it comes to conversations about technology. So it really kind of started as like an inside joke with myself.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it is it is really critical that we tell people over and over again we are here, We've always been here. We are part of the magic that is the Internet. But it's like it has to be said. It's like a marketing piece. We have to say it over and over again because there's this other thing out there that says to the contrary.
And we know, both you and I know.
I mean, I want to talk about how old I am, but I've been around long time and was a part of all of the beginnings of this stuff. So that's amazing. So what kind of things, though, do you talk about on your podcast?
You know, I wanted to make sure the podcast was not just a monument to all of the crappy stuff that we had to deal with on the Internet, things like marginalization and rasure, harassment, disinformation campaigns, all of that. That's certainly part of our story online, but it is not the only story. And so I wanted to capture both the ups and the downs, like those days on early Twitter where we're all cracking jokes late at night.
That's part of the magic of what it means to be a marginalized person online, just as much as the rough stuff as well. And so I really wanted to create a space where we could talk about our experiences, our contributions, be they horrible, like the kinds of things we should not be facing, the ways that we're fighting back against those things, and just the ways that we're using the Internet to connect and build art and spread
joy and have engagements and build movements. You know, there is The story of the way that we show up online is such a multifaceted, layered, nuanced one. And it's those like nuanced nitty gritty points that I find so fascinating how the same tool, the same space can be both foster some of the lowest moments that I've ever had, some of the scariest moments I've ever had, but also some of the highest moments I've ever had, some of
some real moments of genuine connection. And it's so fascinated with how this one domain is able to provide both those experiences for marginalized folks.
I totally agree. I totally agree.
I like that when you're talking about like the early days of Twitter, and even you know, I woant to say Twitter now there's still such a big presence for some of us out there. It's like, I don't know, I'm being rebellious. I don't want to give up my space just because right because it was it was a space that we used before the advent of that person we don't want to name. Yeah, And so you know, just for a moment, let's talk about some of that negative I just kind of want to get your feel
for it. So one of your guests that was on the show talked about the impact of how things are tested, especially using the Internet, and the quote was mass infantilization of entire populations.
And what I read there was that there.
Was this taking away of the freedom to choose, and the taking away of the freedom to really have the knowledge that it is necessary to be able to choose, and even having a choice, it's like either you use it or you don't.
And one of the things that I loved about the conversation was bringing in the point of view that AI and the Internet and tech in general is not just about the tech. It's about people. It's about human questions, it's about human rights questions, and so I would love to hear you speak to that whole that whole mess there.
Well, I think you put it so so correctly right. It's we are told time and time again by tech billionaires, meant most of whom, let's be real, are like white cis men. We are told time and time again that it is about tech, when you and I know that it is about people, relationships, values, how we live our life, our day to day. When I wake up, the first thing that I reach for at the time is a
piece of technology. When I go to order my groceries, I'm looking at the phone to be like, oh, should I order it on Uber Eats or should.
I go to the store.
Right when I vote, I am getting information about how to do that. Online technology has so much impact of how we live our day to day, from how we just get our food in the morning, to how we get our.
Information to everything.
So telling me that it is just about tech, we can we can feel that that's not true, just based on how we live our lives. And so we are being told that tech leaders who don't have to listen to us, don't feel accountable to us, know better than us, and they can tell me, oh, well, we're going to start testing out this new technology that isn't really been proven to be safe, like Tesla's self driving technology, right, Like anybody who owns a Tesla can just test that out despite still being.
In beta mode on a public street.
Well, I never signed a form saying that I was going to be a guinea pig to make Tesla safer. I never signed a form that I was willing to put my safety on the line to, you know, get us to a future where this technology is more safe. I never signed that, yet it's my reality every day. And so I think that we need to get to a place where tech leaders understand that even if I'm not an engineer, even if I'm not like a techie,
I still am an expert in my experience. I use this technology every day, and this technology uses me every day.
So therefore, these.
Tech leaders who are making so much money off of us, they need to be accountable to well. And so what I'm really hoping to have is this cultural shift that says, no, Sam Altman and Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk don't know better what's best for me than I do. I am the expert of my experience and I am allowed to take up space and say that these people, they have tricked us into thinking that they are smarter than us, that because we didn't go to Harvard are not engineers,
that we couldn't possibly understand these conversations. We should just stay out of it and trust them, when these conversations do so much harm and have so much impact in our lived experiences. And it really reminds me of this Zora Neil Hurston quote. If you're silent about your pain, they'll kill you and say you enjoyed it. And I don't think we should be silent anymore.
I don't think we should either. And you know, there are issues where people are feeling threatened about sharing their opinion. And when you talk about AI and the surveillance society and the devices that are listening and the types of things that are being gathered, there is this concept of you know, what if I say something, how is it going to impact it? So I think that's a really important thing for us to think about and to investigate.
In line with all of this, I would love for you to give our audience a thirty thousand foot your point of view of tech. You know who was it built by? And who was it built for? And what does this mean? I think you've started talking about it. What does it mean to all of us, especially those of us who are in marginalized communities.
Yeah, I love this question. I from the very beginning, tech was built by us. It was built by people who are traditionally marginalized, people that you don't think of as being integral to tech. You know, women, women of color, especially black women, queer folks, trans folks. We were at the foundational levels of every stage of the personal computer becoming ubiquitous. Back in the day, computing was you know, women, human women were computers, right, and so it was so
it was so closely associated with quote, women's work. It was almost sort of like secretarial, right, and so we it was not back then, it was not unusual for people who are we think of as being marginalized in tech now to be doing the work.
And it was a lot.
Of the dark arts of marketing in the eighties that made folks think like, oh, well, computers are for men. Computers are going to replace like you're annoying, nagging woman's secretary or whatever, you can replace her with a computer or a fax machine. And on top of that really hostile workplace policies at tech companies that did push marginalized people out. And so you know that was intentional work done by humans that continued to further marginalize us even
when we were taking out space in these domains. And so tech was built by us. Humans made decisions that were hostile to us and either sidelined us, marginalized us, or erased us, or pushed us further to the Martin and I think today we are still having to beat that drum of like, no, if you are a marginalized person in tech, you are right where you're supposed to be. If you're taking up in space, taking up space in tech, you are doing what is you know, your where you're
supposed to be. These are our spaces. We're not like pushing our way into a boys club. We were pushed
out and we deserve to take up space here. And so it's really telling having this conversation today when there's so much shifting happening when on things like social platforms like Twitter, where when Elon Musk took over, it seems clear that the thing that he cared about was not things like community building or you know who's fostering actual engagement on platforms, because that's marginalized people.
Like, full stop, end of sentence.
These platforms would be nothing if not for the engagement of things like black Twitter and other you know, marginalized people taking up space there. But he has done nothing, but like wo poo that the only him that matters
is engineering. Isn't it interesting that yesterday his new CEO had a whole threat about how the important thing about Twitter is the community you all build Twitter, And it's like, oh interesting how you can spend six months dying that when it doesn't when it doesn't serve you, and then when your backs against the wall, you're like, oh wait, it's community. So to me, that means that we do
have power. The folks, the folks in power know that these platforms would be nothing without us, and it's time they acted like it.
Oh.
I totally agree.
I mean, and I love this because it's information that obviously the people who are running Twitter had they wanted to subvert it in some way and go in a different direction.
And so when you think about.
The Internet and how it has become so problematic, I think you spoke to some of the reasons why, you know, how do marginalize people, How do women and non binary folk really start to really take their place there?
I mean, I love what you said.
One of the things that I always say to people when they're talking about Ooh can I get into tech or should I do it?
And I was like, wait, you're what's missing.
So if you come at it from that perspective, you're going to participate in a different way than if you think that you are joining something that is, you know, not for you. You're what's missing, You're what's needed. So there's sort of like this double sided piece, right, So marginalized people help build this tech, marginalized people help this bottom line of tech, but then they're still impacted. The
communities are still impacted. What's the future? How do we how do we turn this around with all that's going on?
I mean, you really said it, Brenda. I think it's it's a the first step. It sounds a little hippy. Hippy is an internal shift in your thinking right there.
I mean, and I feel that too.
I've worked in tech companies and for the longest time I will be working nine to five at tech companies and still saying, oh, I don't work in tech and it's like, wait, I do actually work in tech, and even if I didn't have this job, I would still have a perspective that is, you know, worth sharing and valuable. So the first thing is having an internal shift that says, I belong in these spaces. I belong in these conversations even if I don't necessarily have a technical background or
technical expertise. I am the expert of my experience and I use tech every day. Therefore, that perspective is valuable. I these platforms would not be would be nothing without people like us. And so just like owning that power and starting the conversation from there, as you said, don't start the conversation up from like I'm breaking into the spot where I kind of don't have a right to be, or like this is me like breaking into a boys club.
I think that that perspective.
Was useful for a while, but I think it's it's not actually true because it says that the people who do make it in are outliers, and that when you do get in there, it should be you should it will be normal to be like, oh, there's only a few black women or a few queer folks, or if you you know a few people who look like us, right, And so that's actually not correct if you get into these spaces and that's how but it is that is a failure on the people in power, not in an
indication of those spaces and whether or not you belong there. So I think the first is really an internal shift. And then just like not letting these tech leaders off the hook, right, And so I think that they're really counting on particularly people who are not usually centered in these conversations, just not paying attention to what's happening in tech. It's one of the reasons why I do my podcast,
because they have an interest in making these conversations inaccessible. So, like, if you've ever heard some tech reporting or an interview with a tech leader like Sam Altman does these interviews where I'm like, I think that you are purposely making AI sound more complicated than it is because that serves you, Because it serves you when people are like, oh, I don't understand, Like I'm just going to tune that out.
They're doing that on purpose to marginalize us. And so I think sort of turning off whatever inside of you is like I'm not going to understand these conversations you absolutely will Sam Altman and Elon Musk are not smarter than you, Like, you can absolutely understand these conversations. You can absolutely have a perspective on them, make arguments about them, advocate for yourself and your communities up against their interests because they're counting on you being like, oh, I'm not
going to do that. So yeah, absolutely, Okay, So so Britchet, you are obviously.
Passionate and I love it.
I love it. Can you tell the one way to call it? I mean? And I love it?
I mean, and you know, and I feel like it's necessary for us to do this work, But can you tell our listeners you know what?
Where did your passion come from for this work?
You know?
Why do you do it? And you started talking about you started talking about it before, but tell us more.
Yeah, I mean, it really just takes me back to being an eleven year old kid and feeling so out of place. You know, I had a perfectly fine childhood, but I lived kind of an isolated life. And I remember when my dad brought home our first computer. It was like boxy monstrosity that took up the entire desk and he set it up in what would become like
our computer room. Remember how you would have like a room in your house where the computer was, and like if you brought a soda in there, my dad would lose his mine.
But yeah, it was like he had brought me a pair of wings.
It was the first time that I was like, oh my god, there's people outside of my little community in the South who have completely different perspectives, completely different values, who live lives that I've never even thought about. And so it was the first time that I really started put having the gears turning in my head of like, wait a minute, I don't have to live in this town forever. I don't have to, you know, go down
this path that I see replicated all around me. You know, of the people in my community, I can do whatever I want. There's all different kinds of people living all different kinds of lives out there. And so that was such a huge springboard to me coming into myself and learning about my own identity, who I am and who I want to be in the world and my place in it. And I really really care about that. I
think that's really important. I think that when I think about the state of the Internet today, I genuinely worry that the Internet that we are leaving behind the Internet landscape is not as safe or healthy, or robust or free.
Or open as it was when I was a kid.
And so I wonder the eleven year old little kid that is like me, are they able to have the same level of freedom and expression that I had when I was a kid. And I truly want to go back to the time where the Internet did feel like expression and freedom and not obligation and you know, burden.
I really, I truly want that.
And pressure to conform, right, because what you're saying is now there's all these pressures on young people to consume and not.
Create exactly that, and I think it's like they're pressures, but they're corporate pressures, right, And so somebody is making money off of a young person feeling that pressure to consume and not create. Somebody is making money off of young people, you know, getting into really tough mental health situations because they can't stop comparing themselves to their peers.
Somebody is making money for that. And so I don't want to make it seem like the Internet that I had didn't have its problems, because lord knows, that's probably doing stuff on it that I shouldn't have been doing, but it didn't feel like a marketplace for my pain as a young person, and that's what I'm trying to get away from. Yes, young people are going to have negative experiences online. Somebody shouldn't be making money off of that.
That's the dichotomy. I think that we really got to step back in question.
Wow, that's amazing and such an important point that people need to think about as they are consuming. Because you know, I've always been of the mind I was raised to vote with my dollar, right, and there's different currency that you vote with, and the attention that we give to these platforms that are doing these things and to young people, we need to think about our participation in that as well. So, such an important point. So let's talk about the Internet
Health Report. You hosted a season of their IRO podcast on AI. It's such an incredible tool and it's a wealth of information. So I'd love for you to talk more about it.
What is it saying right now? Where are we?
Yeah?
So, the Internet Health Report was a project of the Mozilla Foundation, the makers of Firefox. It's meant to sort of be a report card grading the health and well being of our Internet.
I am sorry to say that our Internet. You know, it's not all doom and gloom.
It's not all bad, but we really got to be thinking about some of the ways that biases are being baked into our Internet experience and how the rapid progression around things like AI is really.
Making that worse.
And so that was my probably my biggest takeaway from the Internet Health Report is that we have a lot of biases in our society.
Things like AI.
Are well almost certainly make those biases worse and further entrench them because this tech is so powerful. And so when people are trying to have the conversation about AI and like being like, oh no, just accept that it's everywhere now, and you know, don't.
Even ask questions. You got it. If you want to keep your job, you better learn it.
It is imperative that we pump the brakes and ask who benefits, and we ask those questions who benefits from this hype cycle that it's like, we just need to be quickly accepting it into our lives and in what way is it furthering biases because our society is biased, right, Like the AI has the same biases and hang ups that society has, so if the people who are making that technology have those biases, it's also going to be replicated and further entrenched.
That's right. And when I think about the impact on.
Marginalized populations, even naming like older people or people who are less literate, or maybe they're people who are you know, new to a language that that particular application is speaking in and they need to use that for something for their legal lifestyle, for their health lifestyle. You know, we've talked a lot about AI and you know, the false interpretation of faces, but we need to talk about voices.
You know, I won't share what my phone is, but it still doesn't understand.
Me, right, And there rarely are people also on the other end to say, oh, let me intervene.
This isn't working out.
You know.
So if you're your grandmother, my grandmother is trying to access a system that can't understand her voice, she's going to miss out on services, She's gonna potentially that could impact her her very life. So I would love for you know, for you to talk more about, you know, how do we get engaged and speak out when we run up against those types of things.
Well, first of all, I'm really glad that you use that example, but I say that I make content that centers tradition, marginalized people. People always jump to like race and gender. That is absolutely part of it, but it's also, as you said, age, it's also where you live. It's also you know, are you a native speaker of English or is it your second language or a third language?
You know?
It is also military status. It's also do you live on the coasts?
Right?
Did you go to college? Did your parents go to college? There are so many different identities beyond just race and gender, although those are very important, that can marginalize people in conversations around tech, and AI is a perfect example how I think that we have all kind of been a little bit I won't say misled, but pushed into accepting what I think might be a hype cycle around just
this technology. I think that AI is going to be tremendously powerful, but AI is not new, right, and so I think that we are being told like AI can do any job, from lawyer stuff, tesrea writing to everything right. And so I think that the reason why that is being pushed on us right now is to get us to accept it. And so even if that means, oh, I'm afraid of AI and the way that it's going to change the world. That actually just feeds into this idea that like AI can do x y z job,
and it will do x y z job. And so I think that when we accept that without a lot of criticism, the scenario that you just described of your grandmother her AI technology not being able to understand her voice or understand what she's saying to connect her to things that she needs in her life, that's what I think that we need to be working to prevent, right, this idea of like full scale, quick adoption of this
technology when we know it has so many biases. And so for me, it's just like rejecting the hype cycle around certain technologies, right, understanding how when I'm seeing something everywhere everywhere everywhere, Like if you scroll the iTunes tech podcast charts, the half of them are about AI. Now, that wasn't the case two years ago, Right, It's like,
where is this all coming from? And so I think part of it starts with being a little bit critical about the information that we're receiving about technology, particularly when it seems like every voice is saying, oh, accept this as the new way of life without really thinking about what that means, right, you know the.
Way that whole those careers have progressed over time. You know, when I was doing tech, privacy was sacrocynct. I mean, you worked really hard to make sure that people's privacy was maintained. That's out the window and so but and there was also this assumption that something was still in beta test and not even in alpha test. But your listen assumption, Okay, I'm not gonna be the first one in line to get this. Let everybody else buy it, you know, test it out, get the bugs out of it.
I wonder if if the technologists of today are still thinking that critically or are they part of this hype cycle that you're talking about.
You know that I worry about that.
That's such a good question. I don't have the answer. I will say this, I have seen the same thing that you have in just the last couple of years, really conversations around privacy that at one point it would have been unheard of to have a tech company selling ads about something that you said in a therapy session.
Right like if I told you fifteen years ago that what you said to your mental health counselor or your therapist or your doctor, a tech billionaire was going to be listening to that and be selling you items based on what came up, and that you would say never. But now we've all just accepted that that is okay.
And I think we've really in the last few years, really I have seen conversations that at one point were sacricent, like you would never think that this would be something that would be at risk of not being private, like the most intimate kinds of relationships we have. Now we have just accepted if there's going to be a tech company in between you and that the other end of that relationship essentially surveilling you, and we're being told that
it's a good thing. We're being told like, oh, it's going to give you a better experience when you scroll your social media. Don't you want information that is tailored
to your experience? No, I want to go back to where some things are private, like you know, think of I mean, I wonder if like where this ends, right, because I really think that when we accepted conversations between medical professionals and us as like up for the taking, like what's next like conversations, but like when you go if when you go to like confession that's going to be you know, like what's if?
Like what's next? Like where does it end?
In terms of the lack of privacy that we have being sold back to us as a good thing.
Right, And and that also speaks to choice. I don't want someone choosing what I see on my feed. There are so many things that I have serendipitously found in my life from because I'm a nerd and I like to study and I'm curious, right, you know those days it would go to the library, or you'd go out on an experience, you'd meet a person that wasn't scripted
for you. And so the more we sit and it started really I mean it really was cemented during COVID because we were like sitting in our houses and so this became really like this life source and getting all of our information here, we're talking to people through it. That's a lack of freedom if it's scripted. So I think that that whole concept of freedom is up for grabs that in a way that most of us don't recognize. And I think those of us who have a voice have a responsibility to talk about it.
And that's what I love about what you do yeah.
I mean you put that so well.
Algorithms give you the illusion of choice, but it's not really choice. You're not really choosing what you see if an algorithm is surfacing it for you.
Yeah, yeah, it's not. It's not.
And like you said, people have come to think that that's normal, and I think that's something we might need to work on.
You know, you can. I want people to.
Think what they want, but I want them to understand where those thoughts are coming from and that, you know, when their choice has been.
Takeaway, so you know it.
We've talked about some things that sound kind of negative, right, and there's there's some challenges and there's work to be done.
Is there hope?
There's always hope. I am an optimist.
I would not be in this work if I didn't have a lot of hope and optimism and joy about where we're headed next. I think that the hope is in that I think that more and more people are checked in and engaged for these conversations. I think more and more people are like, wait a minute, you know, should I if Facebook and Meta have done all of these like not so great things with my privacy? Should I just download a new app from them without thinking
about it. Maybe I should read into it. I think we're seeing more and more people checked in for these conversations, ready to hold tech leaders accountable and think about their role in the world that we want to have, and I think that's awesome. So, like, I am really hopeful. The thing that always gives me hope are people. I really believe in the power of people, the power of passionate nerds and weirdos like ourselves to create things, and that'll never go away. You know, nobody can stop that.
Oh that's really positive and hopeful. I hope so too. I hope so too, because that's.
Really what we need.
We need people who are motivated, who want to be a part of it, to have those barriers removed. And that's what makes these conversations like we're having today so critical. You know, speaking of social media, give me your take on you know, where should we be going now with social media? You know, you talked about making those choices, you know, should we get involved with those those companies, those those applications that maybe have been dubious in the past.
You know, I think it was your podcast that even talked about the ring people and their ability to just share your information with anybody who asks for it, the police, without your knowledge or consent.
You know, how do we approach such a.
Vast array of opportunity to get involved on the social media in a way that is intelligent and resourceful.
Yeah, it's an exciting time for platforms.
I would say, think deeply about what it is you want from your social media platform. Are you someone who likes the idea of a social media platform really trying to feel like a public square where everybody is listening to what you say, or are you looking for something more like a campfire with more intimacy. Are you looking for a platform that you know has moderation as a as a thing that you everybody is aware of, like here's how we moderate, or a platform that is sort
of like building that as they go. I would say, really spend some time getting clear on what it is that you're looking for, as opposed to as being told like this is a new platform, we're all meeting here. Really think about what it is that you want, what will fit your needs and your values and what you're looking for, and there's a platform that might suit those needs, right.
Like, if you want something that's a little bit more intimate.
Try somewhere good an audio platform that I'm really excited about. If you want something that's like big broadcast to everybody, maybe blue Sky is for you.
Right.
If you're looking for something a little more niche, maybe it's mastered on. I cannot tell you what would be a good fit, but like you can tell yourself, Like, you know what you're looking for from your Internet experience, and that should be dictating you, not some tech leader filling the void with a new platform that you just sign up for without even really looking at it. So basically you're saying, let's think about this first, let's think about it exactly.
I love it. I love it.
Okay.
So I'm sure in all of your work in conversation, you run across companies that you really think, Okay, wow, this company is doing great things. I really love what they're doing. You want to share with everybody about this company. Can you name one company that you'd like to share with our listeners today that falls into that category?
Oh?
Is it corny to say Mozilla? Like, I swear that this is not like an ad for Mozilla. They have not paid me. I mean I did host their podcast, but like so like I was like a Mozilla fangirl before I ever worked there. I actually, like ten years ago now, I submitted an application to work there for a job that I was like super not qualified for. Didn't get the job, which was a good thing. But yeah, I just think that tech companies can do things differently.
And I think Mozilla, you know, being a nonprofit making a platform an Internet browser that is like about privacy. I think it's a good thing, and I think that it's a good reminder to other tech companies that you can have a different model.
Another one a Signal. Have you asked for what I'm giving you too? That's okay? Yeah.
Signal is another company that has a nonprofit and for profit model that makes a tool that everybody uses now or most people. If you're not using, you should be. That makes encrypted communications easy. And I think it really is like as to that culture change of you know, thinking about digital security and privacy isn't just for you know, activists or people who think of themselves as involved in
sensitive work. Privacy is for everybody. We all deserve privacy, and so these companies that are finding a way to make it easy and accessible and fun and more ubiquitous.
I think are doing great. So that's two for you. Mozilla and Signal. Oh I love it.
I love it, and that's that's that's great, A great perspective when you think about even how they are arranged, the nonprofit and the for profit piece of Mozilla. I always thought that that was amazing how they thought to do that.
Well, okay, I would.
Love for you to share with with our listeners anything that you think that they really should hear.
What didn't we talk about? What would you like for them to know?
One of my purposes in life, I believe, is to bring people the information that they need so that.
They can get active. They can be activated, they can get up and do something.
We've talked about some things that I think are pretty critical to just the way we live that is impacted by AI and the internet. What is just even just one thing that you would say, you know, we need to be thinking about this more, we need.
To do this. What could we do?
God, that's a good question, I would say.
You know, on the podcast, we're doing this series called Present Future where we're kind of exploring the idea that the sort of faraway tech future that we talk about is like happening today and so what's happening presently? And in that exploration, I have really that the people who are kind of been tasked with architecting what our tech
enabled future looks like. If you ask some of those people what a good and fulfilled and meaningful life looks like, I think that most people would not agree with their interpretation of what a good and fulfilled, meaningful, full life looks like. I think that tech leaders, for them, a meaningful and fulfilling life looks like more interactions with a screen, more technology, having a screen strapped to your face while you're in your apartment.
Right. They want us to be more plugged in. I love technology.
I will be a techie till I die, but that is not what I consider to be a good and full life. A good and full life is a life that is filled with my community, my family, time offline, time away from screens. Screens make my life better, but they are not my life. I think that the tech leaders who are architecting our future believe that screens should be our lives.
And so I would.
Say, as we go forward in this tech enabled present future of ours, really keeping that in mind, what do you consider a good life?
What do you what makes you feel feel full? Is it screens?
Is it more and more technology encroaching on more and more aspects of your relationship in your lives? And if the answer is no, which I suspect it is for most people, really live like it. Really cherish the time that you're not on a screen. Really cherish the time with your community, with the people that you love, if you're able to see them in person. Really cherish that. Really understand that no tech leader can replace that and
replicate that. Like, really hold tight to the things that you think make your life good, and don't let a tech leader tell you that you don't know what those things are, because you do.
I know that.
Sounds like freedom. You're talking about freedom.
You take back your freedom, take back, take it away, take it back, you know, be different.
And I feel like, you know, maybe this is a little biased on my part. I feel like those of us.
Who knew what it was before and see what it is now have that comparison to be able.
To do that.
Do you feel that same way for people who are were more or less born into the matrix?
I guess would call yeah, Well, I don't know. I would have said so earlier. I would have said no, like young people. I mean not to sound like my mom, but like young people love their dang phones. But like I was actually reading about how younger folks are I think just like getting a little fed up with this like totally tech enabled present that we have. I was reading. I want to say it was pew, but don't quote
me on that. Someone did a study on whether or not different generations would like to return to a time before smartphones and tech, and most people do. The only generation that didn't want to return to like pre smartphone era were boomers. But even younger folks like jen Z, they don't even they didn't even get to have an error without those things, and they're interested in what that would be like.
And so I read.
Profile like young people who don't have smartphones and love it. I think that we are really going to see a shift where people are turning back to the things that make them feel good and turning away from things that make them feel bad, even though tech leaders are trying to convince us that they make us feel good, but we know they don't.
Well, I'm encouraged by that. That's very encouraging to me. I think that's great because that means that they understand that they have a choice. And so again we want to activate people to get engaged. I want people to leave this podcast and go and do something. What would that be.
Be choosy.
It's your life, it's your experience, it's your ecosystem. Be a little choosy about what you let into it. And don't let these tech leaders tell you you need anything, because, if anything, they need you.
Oh a man, I love that part.
They need you.
They need everybody listening to this podcast to be successful, to have a product in the first place.
So I feel like that is an opportunity.
For us to take back some power and with that forge to tide. I want to thank you for being part of this podcast.
Oh my gosh, well this was a dream come true.
You're such a good interviewer. I could talk to you all day. Thank you for sharing this platform with me. Just so, the three things I think that everybody listening should take away from this conversation are one, shift your thinking. The voice that tells you that you don't belong in tech or that you don't have a perspective that is valuable.
Shift your thinking because you use technology every day, whether you are an engineer or went to Harvard or whatever or not, so shift the thinking around your role in tech. You belong there to really get clear on what it is you want. Right you are the expert of your experience. It is up to you to say what your digital ecosystem looks like and what technology you want to have around you and your relationship to it. So really get
clear on what that looks like for you. And lastly, don't let anyone talk you out of what you know and what you feel and what you experience. Elon Musk is not smarter than you just because it's a billionaire. I like that, and I'm going to use that. You are the expert of your experience if I can adopt that.
Please please don't know.
I'm sure I sold it from somebody.
Okay, thank you for giving us your time.
It's so fun.
Thank you all so much. I really appreciate the time.
Huge thanks to Bridge to Todd for joining us today. Now today's talk resonated with you or it piqued your curiosity, then hit that follow button. New episodes of Be the Way Forward drop every two weeks, and if you're hungry for more reasons to find hope and ways to bring change check out a need tob dot org.
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