Tower of Power’s Emilio Castillo

list goes on and on. The group celebrated half a century together with a new live album recorded in their hometown of Oakland. It's called fifty Years of Funking Soul Live at the Fox Theater. And now you're about to hear all sorts of tales from their incredible run. From the guy who's been there for every note of their music. I'm so happy to welcome Mr Emilio Castillo from Tower of Power. Well, I have so many things to ask you. I guess we'll just dive right in. You just wrapped

up a new tour with Tower of Power. It must have been so nice to get back out on the road after the last year and a half. I imagine that was probably the longest time you've been off the road in quite some years. If you two years, I've never gone off the road that much. That is nuts. Oh my goodness. I mean, how was that time at home? Did you find yourself uh staying sharp musically by by writing? And like, what kind of stuff did you do to

keep busy? I did? I wrote. I practiced my instrument, which I've never really been one to practice a lot. I never needed to, I confess that because I play all the time, you know, But I practiced my instruments, and uh did some writing. Uh. I got married, uh not quite a year before the pandemic, and uh so it's, you know, some great time to be with my new wife and uh that's wonderful. Yeah, really nice. And uh, you know, I was kind of a nonbelief for six months,

thinking it's gonna end any day. And after six months, I strapped myself in and said I'm in for the long haul and made the best of it, and uh, you know, a lot of good things came out of it. But uh, grateful to be back at work. Yeah, what was the response, Like, must have been really rapture us really good for the most part, not every single gig.

I mean, we always get a good response, but some better know, some were really off the change, you know, Like we just did this last weekend five shows in Seattle at the Jazz Alley, and every one of the shows was packed and they were just really excited, and uh, that really makes it easy for us to do a good show. Oh Man. Speaking of live performances, he was recently released a live album celebrating your fiftieth anniversary as a band, fittingly at the Fox Theater in Oakland, Taking

it all the way back to you start. How did this all begin for you? Was there a moment when you knew that music was going to be sort of a guiding force in your life. Well, I started playing when I was fourteen, and I always tell people, you know, we we did it completely bad awards. We didn't practice for years and years and joined the band. We started a band the first day, and then we learned how

to play. And I remember my my buddy Jody Lopez around the corner had gotten the guitar and he knew how to play that intro to a Pretty Woman by Roy Orbison, No No, No, no, no, no no, and my brother could go bad bad ba the drum and I squeaked on the saxophone, and my mother walked in and said, they're gonna be huge stars. And you know, it's like the band just became my whole life. And very shortly after that, my father came to me and he said, you have to be the leader of the band. Now.

My brother was the drummer, and he's ten months older than me, and so he was the leader. You know, we're kids. The older one's leader. And I said, no, Jack's the leader, you know, and he goes, no, he goes, you need to be the leader because you you're the one that's sort of telling everybody what to do musically, you know. And uh, and he forced me to be

a leader, and that changed my life. Now. A lot of bands in the mid sixties are heavily influenced by the Beatles on Ed Sullivan, but you were different in that. From my understanding, you were influenced by another b the Batman. That's true. Uh, that wasn't really our idea. We uh, we liked rock and roll, you know, we you know, for there was when we first started playing, people wore costumes, you know, there was Paul Revere and the Raiders, and in the Bay Area there was some friends at our

high school named Peter Wheat and the Breadman. There was another band called the Dutch Masters, who you know, dressed like those Puritans on the cigar boxes. You know, there were all these bands that that dressed certain ways with these costumes. And we were called the Extension Five and we just played rock and roll, Louie Louie and you know, hang on Sloopy and you know that kind of stuff.

And uh, we had a pretty titled bandon We all were you know, sharkskin matador outfits, and uh, we went to go audition at this place that it was actually a topless bar, but on Sundays they had a team dance, and so we went there to audition for the team dance and the guy there, there's two of them, Sydney Dopps and Jerry Rawlson. I'll never forget. These guys were something else. And they came to my mother, who was the manager at the time, and they said, we have

an idea. The Batman Show was just coming out, and you know, when it actually came out, it proved to be a really bogus sort of, you know. But before it came out, the build up was huge. They had a big ad campaign, and you know, Superman the series was always very popular, and all of a sudden, he comes Batman. Everybody thought it was going to be great. Plus it was in color, you know, so it was gonna be this huge thing. And he said, we want

to name your kids Batman and the Robins. We'll have your drummer dresses Batman and all the other four guys dresses rob and we'll put a blue silk thing around the drums that looks like a bat cave. And we'll put these boxes with lights blinking perforated plastic in front, blinking so it looks like this. You know. Yeah, these are you know, computers, I guess. And uh so you know, my mom also quite a promoter, you know, she goes,

you know, yeah, we'll do that, you know. And they said they're going to contact the TV show and say, you know, you have to have them on the show. So they did that. My mom and uh and Rockell's mom got busy sewing you know, outfits, and they contacted the TV show and said, you know, we're so excited

about the new show. That's gonna premiere, you know, the next month, and uh, we really earned you to bring on the hottest rocket roll band and business Batman and the Robins, and they immediately got a letter that said cease and desist immediately, and that's it's illegal to use the name. And these guys, they didn't even miss a step. They took a step back. They went, we'll call it the Gotham City Crme Fighters and and that's what they did.

And and within like two weeks we were playing the top places in the Bay Area as the number one acts and they build us as don't miss the Gotham City Crime Fighters with their fifteen thousand dollar like show. Now you gotta stand in the nineteen fifteen thousand dollars like you know, a hundred thousand dollars, you know, and all we really have with these boxes that we made out apply with with this plastic and the lights blinking.

But people bought it and we were mobbed. I mean for about three months we were like the biggest stars in the Bay Area. We played uh long Sherman's Hall and the Boss and go go at the Hotel Leamington all over town, you know, and and then you know it all went away soon as the show came out. It was bogus, you know, it was really yeah, Adam West, the whole thing blew up. You know, we got tired of it. Oh man. Well, aside from from Batman, who are you? Some of your other early musical influences, I

mean James Brown, famous Flames come to mind immediately. You know, you're born and raised in Detroit. I imagine there must have been a lot of soul in those early days. Yeah. I lived in Detroit till I was eleven, and my parents, uh, you know, they loved albums, you know, and they played them all the time, and singles. So they had Elvis Presley, and they had Bill Dogg At Honkey Talk. They always played the Platters. They really big fans of the Platters.

My mother said, I used to sit on the toilet at six years old and sing only You by the Platters. You know. I was a really good little mimic. And then they listen to Sarah Van and Dinah Washington, a lot of Nat King Cole, you know that kind of stuff. So that's what I listened to as a young boy.

Then I got out to the Bay Area and I'm missing my my friends in Detroit, and that's when all those songs started coming out in New York by Carol King and Jerry Goffin and Barry Man and Cynthia Wheel, you know, the Drifters and uh, the Coasters and uh, you know all that I love that sound. You know, all those Burt Backrack songs by Jeanne Warwick. You know,

I love that stuff. And then right about that time the Motown thing yet and of course I'm missing my friends in Detroit, so the my radio became my friend, you know, and I just loved songs and records, and so all the Motown artists, Little Anthony and the Imperials. Certainly later on James Brown. I remember my my and I watching him on TV. And then one night Wayne

Cochrane came on. He was like the white James Brown down in Florida, and we were watching me had this big seven team piece band, and you know, we just love that stuff. Sam and Dave otis reading really into it, you know, before it a few years. One of the pre eminent San Francisco promoters and impresarios in the sixties and really ever, Bill Graham ran fill More West and East at the time, and he signed you to his label.

How did you first link up with with Bill Graham. Well, the first time I met Bill Graham, I was actually it was right after the Gotham City Crime Fighters and we went there in audition at the original fillm war On Gary, Gary, and I remember Bill Graham went to my mother and uh and he said, I think your boys need to do another year in the garage and uh we then, uh, you know, a few year years later after I got into soul music and started uh we we we had a band called the Motowns, and

when I met Doc, we wanted to get into the Fillmore West and so we knew we'd never get in there wearing suits and being called the Motowns. So we changed the name the Tower of Power and grew out here long and you know, started dressing like everybody else was dressing that day during that time, hippies, you know, And we got an audition at the Fillmore West and uh, by God's grace, you know, Bill Graham Dougas and he

had just started two new record companies. One was distributed to Colombia and the other one distributed to Atlantic, and the one in Atlantic was San Francisco Records, and we signed the first deal with them, and he was partners with a producer named David Rubinson. So David Rubinson and Bill they saw us audition and they dug it and next thing I know, we were signed to an album deal. And you know, everybody was trying to get on those labels.

I mean everybody in the Bay Area, and people were flying in from Texas, from Chicago, from Florida to try and get on Bill's label. And we were nobody. We were like the little Puddley's you know, nobody knew who we were, you know, and but we played good soul music. We were good to dance too, and we had these originals that we had written and they went yeah, and they signed us. And you've often said that that, you know,

Oakland is your sound. I mean, what is it about the Bay Area that really contributed to it, to your music and made it what it was? You know, cities in general have have when it comes to soul music. They have a sound. You know, New Orleans has a more a loose kind of bumped to it, and uh they're singing is uh much different than say Motown or

Philly or Chicago or New York In Oakland. It was a real urban soul sound and uh, you know, I don't know if you know this, but sly Stone was a disc jockey in Oakland, you know, and he was a big influence on us because he was everybody's favorite DJ. I mean, everybody listened to him as a DJ, even people that weren't into soul music because he was such

a personality on the radio. And uh, you know, he was first on ks O l K soul radio, then he was on k d I A And right about the time that I became a soul band, I saw

his band. Uh and the Stone had a local nightclub near my house, and we used to go there Rock and I every weekend, and we were you know, they had a they had a cyclone fence in the back and there was a swimming pool and there we used to climb over that fence and go on the back door of the club and sneak in and we would stay there until like nine in the morning because at eight o'clock they served free breakfast and fly in the

family Stone. They used to play like, you know, four sets up till two am, you know, and then take a break. And at two am, the bar shutdown. And they had this law in Hayward, California, most of the Bay Area that you couldn't dance and you couldn't drink between two am and six am. So the bands have played what's called after hours. They had to put on a show, you know, they had they did stick. You know, they would like do comedy with teens and like slying them.

They would go down onto the dance floor and do handbone contest between each other and they would start a song and everybody would switch over to the next instrument and then played for a while and go to the until they came all the way around back to their own instrument. You know, stuff like that. You had to do that to play after hours. We wound up being an after hours band for you know, probably three years. I mean we played after hours a lot. So Slyde

was a big influence on us. Not not that we wanted to be our music to be like his. We wanted our band to be exciting live like he was. He had the energy and we doug that. And plus he had gregor Rico on drums and that was the first real hip folk drummer that he hit the scene, and he was really bringing it, you know, and I started messing with the beat right around it. Oh, I mean slide It's crazy. I mean, like you said, I mean what a huge influence in the scene. I mean

not only with the band and as a DJ. But wasn't he was producing bands. Didn't he produce the initial incarnation of Jefferson Airplane, the Great Great Society. Didn't he produce some of their early stuff? But he produced the Bo Brummels. Yeah that's right, laugh laugh, and yeah, just a little prod, just little And he also produced Bobby Freeman Come On and Swim, which was a huge nationally. It's that was him. I didn't know that was him.

And he played the guitar. Oh that makes so much sense because that could I mean that that's a heavy record today. I I d J forty five Soul Nights and stuff, and I play that all the time. Right,

It's great. Oh man, I mean how tight were you in power of power with with San Francisco bands like you know, the ones I just mentioned, like Jefferson Airplane or Quicksilver Messenger Service or like were they they kind of moved on more of the psyched people by the time that you guys are really coming in your own you know, they had kind of had their run by

the time we hit the scene. But over the the years we became familiar with all of them because you know, the Jefferson Air but they kind of you know, reunited and changed your name to the Starship and we played on their records and you know, Quicksilver Messenger Service, although I didn't know them when, you know, before we got

signed a bill. After we got sent a billion years later, I worked with Huey Lewis in the News and Mario Cippolino was the bass player, and his brother John was in Quicksilver Messenger Service and so and then David Freiberg was the bass player for Quicksilver. He wound up being the bass player for the Starship, you know. So, yeah, I got to know all, you know, all the bands in the Bay Area, and uh, it was a great time to be in the Bay Area. I mean, the

whole world was looking at the Bay Area. Yeah, I mean, that was the scene. I mean, and you know, I give all the credit for that to Bill Graham. I mean, he literally changed the music industry when he started throwing concerts because he tweaked the collective ear of the Bay Area, and he did it in New York too, And the way he did it was once he got so popular that his place was the place to be, and that

was pretty quickly. He'd have the Grateful Dead. But then he'd have you know, uh Howland Wolf and uh Tito Puente, you know, and then the next night, I need to have Quicksilver and Miles Davis and Russ and Roland Kirk, you know, all these. He would have Salmon Dave and Nottice Reading and Janis Joplin, you know, all these really

and everybody. That's when you know, everybody's getting high, ending their minds, and all these hippies are there just going, dude, this is cool, you know, looking at Otis Redding, you know, well, and you guys opening for Aretha, I think it's a more East? What more West? What was that experience? Like? Phenomenal? Phenomenal. We actually played a gig opening for her one week earlier, the weekend before that, at the CBS convention in Los Angeles,

and Doc always tells this story. You know, we we always stood at our microphones and played right in the microphones, and we we had a big horn section sound. Well, she had the Memphis Horns with her, and when she played at the convention, you know, they all sat down and they're reading parts, and the mics were like this far away, and when they got we we we pretty much and we brought it pretty good at the CBS convention. So when we got to the film or us, we

noticed they were all other mics now. And then she had Bernard Pretty playing drums for her, and uh and you know he knew about us, and he really dug us, and he used to come. We played this Monday and Tuesday night gig in jack London Square called the on Broadway, and everybody was coming to city and all the guys from Sly cold Blood, Elvin Bishop, Bass, gags Q, Massachila used to come to the Santana and Bernard Pretty when he was in town, he would come down there, you know,

so he knew us. And uh so if you listen to that record or Wreath Alive at the film or on the last night when Ray Charles came to set in the Spirit in the Dark, they took the ride out really long and at one point he breaks it down and Bernard had gotten off the drums. He was because the David Gribble come on, you know, and David plays the ride out after that, and then Bernard it's getting so excited because David Grubin he starts smashing the symbols on two and four, you know, and you can

hear that on the record. You know. It was a great, great, great weekend. I remember also, Uh, cold Blood wanted to play and uh, but Bill decided we were the ones right for the year. But he let them play on Saturday night. And so I went there and I'm listening to cold Blood and you know, they had stolen our trumpet player, Mickchillette, and so he was with them, and but he missed us, and he used to come and sit in with us all the time, even though he

was with them. And I remember he came to me and he said, you know, I want to sit in the film or when we played with Aretha, and I said, you know, that wouldn't be right because you're with cold Blood now, you know, and you're like their secret weapon. It wouldn't be right for me to use them on our set. So I didn't let him sit in with us. And uh, I remember I was backstage sitting to them, and they're a great band. It's a wonderful, you know.

And I was back there with a couple of the background singers Sweethearts of Soul, and one of the girls she's listening. She listen and she goes, they're good, Yeah they are, and she does that as good as you remember the story I always tell about Aretha. You know, it was a real media event. So they had this backstage dressing room. It was a big room, you know, it was like three bedrooms the size of it, you know, but all open, you know, and we're all in there,

you know. But there was so much media and so many you know, groupies and hangers that everybody wanted to be in that dressing room, so it was packed, you know, and I couldn't even get in. So I was standing in the doorway and here comes to a Wretha and I'm standing there, and I turned the sideways and a lead against the doorjam, and she slides in and she faced to face with me, knows two knows, and she goes, Tower Pout my favorite band, and I just melted. That's

one of my most favorite memories of all two. I would ride that for the rest of my life. Yes, that's amazing. Wow, God I mean just so many memories. I mean, I you you mentioned earlier about sort of making the jump from from playing covers to to write in your own material. How did that come to pass? How did you start writing your own music? And give

all the credit to Doc. My thing as the band leader of the band called the Mo Towns was I messed with the beat, and I messed with the horn arrangements, and I messed with the vocal arrangements. So I would make up these weird beats. We would be doing ninety nine and a half by Wilson Pickett. But I didn't want to do it with the beat for the record, you know, Cal you know. I started to make up a beat like dog, and I would teach my brother

the beat, you know, we would rehearse andhearsement. I get him to the beat, and then I make up a baseline doogle doogle goo goo good, doogle goo good. I teach that to Rocco, and I find a part of the guitar that you know, Jody could do that would go in and out, you know, and uh, and then I changed the horn parts a little bit, you know, not a lot, but a little bit, you know, And

that was what I did. And one day Doc comes to me after I hired him and he'd been in the band for a little bit and we were sounded good, you know, and he says, you know, what you're doing with the song is amazing, you know he is, but why are we doing him to everybody else's songs? Why don't we run our own? And I was telling people, I don't know that I ever would have thought about that. That thought never occurred to me. I was totally happy

doing what I was doing, you know. But I looked at me, my go we could try that, you know, And so I went over to his apartment, you know, a couple of days later, and uh, the first song we wrote, You're Still a young Man still to this day, one of the biggest turns we ever wrote, and that was that I had heard a story that that was

semi autobiographical. Is that is that true? Well? Yeah, I had a I was eighteen and I had a girlfriend that was twenty four years old, and she was gorgeous, gorgeous girl, and we we had this tord love affair. And when she had this ex boyfriend and she wounded up leaving to go back with the guy, and he was kind of abusive. He was a Vietnam bed and he was kind of abusive. But she had this thing for me. She she left me to go back to

him and broke my heart. I mean, I was devastating, you know, young, you know, and uh, but then she came back to me, you know, and uh, when she first broke up with me, she would always say, you know, you need to hang out with girls your own age. You know, you know, I'm told for you. You You know, you know you're too young to be with a woman my age. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, I want to be with you. So when we sat down to write You're Still in a Man, first we

wrote the intro. We had this really great trumpet player, Michel lead. And there was this song by the Impressions called My Woman's Love that started with this beautiful intro called it was a really high trumpet b Da da da da dad. Uh. We loved it, you know, And so the first thing Doc and me said, we got to write a trumpet intro. So we wrote the intro

You're Still in Man. And then I said, so we gotta tell us, well, how about a a guy is you know, these girls are this girl is telling him, you're too young, you know, don't waste your time with me, and the guy's pleading his case. No, no, I'm not too young. I love you, you know. And that was basic enough me and this girl, Sharon Martin, and so yeah, we just started writing down on my knees, hard in hand. I was accused of being too young, but I'm not

too young. Can't you understand. I think like a man, you're still a young man. The girls, you know, of course, we didn't have no girls, so we sing background. Did she ever know that that was about her? No? But she, you know, I told her. She came back to me and then broke up with me again, and the second time I kind of got over it, and then she came back a third time, and by then we had become,

you know, we had some notoriety by that power. She was under the impression that I wrote this other song, Sparkling in the Sandford because somebody said. I think somebody told her, you know that song it's about you, then, you know, But she thought it was this other one, the song with the flute, Sparkling in the sand, which was another love song, but that wasn't really written for her, I gotta ask about what is hip? What is the

genesis of that track? And probably I would imagine, uh, the the one that that gets people on their feet the most that you show is just because it's such a classic. Yeah, I mean it definitely is. Uh, you know, we have to play it. We'll get lynched if we don't play what is It? And we generally closed the show with it, and there was Docs once again to give the credit to Doc. You know, he's really lyrically the clever lyricist. I kind of come up with clever

lyrics here and there. He sort of lives by them, you know. And uh, he came to me and he said, I want to write a song called what is Hip? And I go, what is hip? What does that mean? He goes, well, you know what's hip today? Tomorrow will be past you know. I okay. And so we decided to write it, and then we invited David Garibaldi to come and join us in the writing process, and mainly Doc and I came up with the chords, and you know,

him and I worked out the lyrics on the verses. Uh. But Dave is the one that after we had written it, he was in the rehearsal. Hall uh. They used to jam. We would rehearse from eleven to five. But then these guys from Santana would come over, you know at the basse player Deeggie Rosher was really good and him and David would jam. And there was a song called I'm Going Down by Freddie King and it had this baseline

doo doo googogle. You know, it was really cool, you know, and so they were jamming on that, and then David, as he's prone to do, he always like you come up with the beat, and then he goes, you know, we could do this, you know, and so he put this hit in there, a sixteen for one do do do do? You know? And then then he added two more bob, you know, and so he comes in he says, man,

we were me and Deugie were jamming last night. We were jamming on that groove from them going down is you know, maybe we could use that for what it is hip. You know. They played it for me kidding that work perfect, I saying right over it it fit perfectly. And then Rockoll of course on the base, he took it to another level on the base. Oh yeah, I mean it's like an earthquake. I mean, that's that's that's a song you gotta listen to on good speakers. It's

like you gotta feel that track. Oh man. I mean there's so many things, so many incredible songs. I think I have this right, I I you're I would imagine you're one of the few people who's worked with both Quincy Jones and George Martin. Uh two. I mean I'm hard pressed to name more famous producers in history. What were those experiences like? I mean, George Martin, I'm a huge Beatles fans I was around. I imagine when he was producing UM America. What what was he like in

the studio? Well, we did UM What was the Beatles movie? Uh oh, Sergeant Pepper Sergeant Pepper's Only Heartscoued Band. Yes, So they made the movie starring Peter Frampton, and he brought in our horn section and some other horn players, very good, Chuck Finley, Bill Watress, you know, and we did like three or four days of recording, a lot

of recording. And he was a perfect gentleman always, but he was very specific about what he wanted, you know, and and he had a way of just really respectfully letting you know, know right here we needed or you know, I want you to check the tuning here right there that notes a little short and I need the full length on it. He was he was very musically, very knowledgeable, and very pacific. And I we love that. We we don't like him when we're in the you know, in

the studio and the producer goes. You know, I wanted to be like you know when the rose pedals that kind of stuff, you know, that makes do we like people that talk to music, you know. And he was a real musician. And then you know, we did that and it was great. And then a few years later he was producing the band America and he was up at our studio that we recorded at and Soaslito the record plans, and he called us again and uh and

and once again same thing. Real gentlemen, but respectfully, very specific about what he wanted, and he just brought it out of I mean, you can see why he was such a great producer, you know. And I mean Quincy must have been cool for you because all those stories about you know, Saravan and swinging Miss d and folks like that, I mean, folks you grew up with that must have been a really nice whole circle moments for

all your influences. Yeah, we knew Quincy because we toured with him when he had he had a hit record called Body Heat, and he brought out a really hot band and we actually he had a trumpet player named Bill Lamb that used to come sitting with us. Him

and Mick Gillette together was phenomenal. But he also had this guitar and basse player named Johnson, you know, Lewis Johnson and his brother and he said, I'm going to do a record on these guys, and I want you guys to be on it because he really dug us. I mean every night you know, we were bringing in he he just dug the band a lot. So we're all friendly, you know, and uh, sure enough, you know a few months later, he calls us into the studio in Los Angeles and, uh, you know, we're doing the

tracks and they sound great. You know, we're kind of taking a little break and we're complimenting him on it. He goes, this thing is gonna go go, you know immediately, you know, and mind you no, he knew who the brothers Johnson worked. You know, they had done one tour with Quincy Jones. That's it so but that's how sure of it he was. And he started talking about all the gold records we had blah blah blah, and we didn't have any gold records, you know. And he goes,

what do you mean you don't have any gold records? Go, I don't know. We never got any, you know. And he says, are you kidding me? Warner Brothers didn't send you gold records for the Tower of Power albums or back to Oakland and you I'm shocked by that. And I go, now, we never got one, and he goes, uh, well you're getting one for this one. This is going gold, and you're gonna get one. It's sure enough. And a couple of months later, delivered to my door gold record,

you know, And I still haven't. Oh that is a great the one with the Sugar Otis tracks Strawberry Letter twenty three. Oh, that is as a great record. We actually played on that song. But I don't think he put me. I think he took the horns off age. It's funny. Before I knew I was talking to you, I was watching or listening on YouTube to you and the Stones at Candlestick Park almost exactly forty years ago in October of eighty one. Uh, doing Satisfaction at the end.

It's on YouTube, and it just sounded so good. And this is this is actually before I know I was talking to you. I just wanted to hear it because it's such a legendary show. What are your memories of that night at Candlestick Park? I didn't know that was on YouTube. I gotta watch. Yeah, that was phenomenal, you know. Um Bill Graham was the one that promoted not only that tour, but several of their tours at that time. And uh, and he wanted us to play with the Stones.

But he came to me and he said, you know, with the Rolling Stones, you can't go to them and say I would like you to have these guys play with you. You know, is it just it can't be done. They have to ask you. And he said, so I'm going to make sure that you are in their presence

for the next few weeks. And uh, we did a gig with we were playing with Heart at the time, the horn sections and they were opening for the Stones and they did it in Denver and Bills Bill said, I want you to come to the hospitality suite after the show in the hotel and bring your horns, but don't bring them in. And so we go okay, and you know, and then we get there. We're in this hospitalize.

I mean there's fine wines and all this great food, you know, records, supersound system and records they're playing, and then before we know it, here comes Mick Jagger and he comes in and starts talking. And I remember he was really into Prince. Prince had just come up, and we knew who Prince was because he recorded his first record across the hall from us and saw the leto. So he's asking me and do you know Prince you know?

And I'm like, yeah, we do. Actually, you know, he was across all he actually took our second engineer and uh. And he starts talking about that and we're getting along and Bills over there going oh this is going good, you know, and he says, uh, hey, he goes the guys have their horns because uh, and he tells our road he was with us, because uh, why don't you go get the horns bring him up. I don't know what he's thinking. Where we're gonna play the horns in

the hospitality sleep and uh. So he sends my roadie down and we're all kind of feeling kind of awkward. The next thing, we know, Mixed sort of stops talking and he turns around and he kind of dances out of the room backwards, and he was gone. And Bill goes, ah, and messed up. I shouldn't have done that. You know. We're like, what what what happened? And he goes that that didn't feel right to him, you know, so when I said to get the horns, that was I shouldn't

have done it. And so then he flew me to San Diego, to Los Angeles and then finally and I'm and I'm hanging out, you know, where the Rolling Stones are, you know, and they're completely ignoring me. You know, I'm not a real I'm not a real uh you know, social person in terms of, you know, hey man, let's party, you know kind of thing. I'm just hanging out, you know.

And of course, so they're there, you know, because what he told me was he said, you have to understand I think if you were like, you know, your face was the most recognizable face in the entire world. Because that's what these guys deal with on a daily basis. And he goes so it has to be their idea and blah blah blah, and I'm like, yeah, whatever, and so I'm you know, Denvers and Diegos Angeles. Finally we get to the Bay Area and uh, you know, I'm tired.

I've been hanging out nobody's asking me to do so, you know, I'm kind of burnt out. And then but I go to Candlestick Park and Bills like, you know, he has to talk with Mick Jaggers. Look, you know, don't you get it. I keep putting this guy in your presence because I want the horns to play with you that the greatest horn section in the world, you know, and make a well yes, certainly, you know. And so we're supposed to play Satisfaction and this is the first

night and h Keith Keith Richards wasn't there. And finally he shows up late and he's sick, probably dopes it, you know, and uh, it doesn't feel good. And he comes in and we're in there, you know, um getting ready and he's what's this, you know, and make a top hard you're going to play with just not tonight, And they canceled us and that was it for me. That was a start book. I said, I'm out of here, you know. And uh, but Doc, Doc and Keith Richards

they got along pretty good. And uh, Doc was devastated because we were ready to go on, you know. And so after the show, Bill Graham goes up to Keith Richards because he knows that he likes Doc, and he goes, man, I can't believe you did that, you know, and Keep goes what and he says, you devastated that poor Gray goes who you know, because Doc, because they were gonna play man, it's a big deal. You know, it's wrong. We'll do it tomorrow, you know. And so I wasn't there.

I had gone home when I was staying with my father in law, and by then I'm trashed. Man, I'm done. And I woke up the next morning. I remember my father going, aren't you going to the stadium? I said, now, heck with that, and I'm done. You know, I think you should go. And so you got a cab went there.

And when I drive up in the cab, Bill Graham is in there out in the park waiting for me to get it in there they were rehearsing, and I go into this trailer and the guys all got their horns out and I'm getting my horn out and Keith Richards looks at me and he goes, we're doing satisfaction. Do you know the otis redding parts? You know? I go, yeah, I think so. You know, we played this song a million times, right, and so we started working it up and they like it, so it's all it's all rage.

We're gonna go on for the uncle. So they play their set and they have a like a little rolling riser with five mikes for us, and we're behind this scream you know where you can't see us, but we can sort of see through it to the state, and they're killing it, you know. And then the said ends and they come off and we're getting already and Keith

Richards goes on to our riser and passes out. And the next thing I know, uh, Bill Graham's on top of him and funct him at the heart and he's giving him up the mouth and he is not coming to and I'm like, I can't even believe this. After all this, this guy's gonna did die right here. And the next thing I know, this guy comes up with this black bag. It's obviously there doctor and shoots them up with something than Keith Richards jumps up. He goes

Let's rock and they starts settisfaction, you know. And then as soon as the beat kicks and we start going Papa but that but little that, you know, we're nailing it. And I remember that we got to the rideout and Mick Jagger is loving it and he keeps looking at us and they're going so he's stretching out the ride up. Well, you know, in a soul band, you know, when the ride is really kicking, the lead trumple player takes it up and acted so Nick Gillette and he had great range,

you know, boom, he takes it up up. He's blood and you know and mix less loving and I mean, uh, Mick Jagger is loving it more and more and more. So he's making it go longer and longer. He wants getting redder and redder, you know, but he's making every note. He's burning it and then finding the ends the tune we had the last chord and Mick Jagger goes top our horns and we're in San Francisco. They knew us place perserved, you know, and uh, Bill Graham jumps on

my back. He's going you guys are the greatest words of the world. He's going crazy. It was the most incredible moment. Man, it's the adrenaline was unbelievable. Oh my goodness, I can I can only imagine. I mean, I would have. I was. One of my questions was I was gonna ask you He's there a moment Of all the places you play, people you played with, it is one that stands out. But I imagine that's probably number one on

the list if I were to guess. We had a lot of good moments, but that was one of the best. Oh my goodness. I mean, it's such an incredible career. I mean, and just just your sound is so I mean, it's so distinct, that's so you. I mean, you've never it's it's never had the change because it's perfect in my opinion. I mean, I wanted to ask you me. I know, you get asked to play uh so many session dates with so many different bands, and I know that a crucial component of your sort of agreeing to

do it is to use your own arranger. And I wanted to ask you more about that, like, how do how does that factor into as somebody who loves music like I do, but and messes around on instruments. But it is not a guy in the wool musician would never call myself that. I want to know more about the kind of role that that your ranger plays and

helping craft your your sound as a band. It's really integral when you're doing session work for other artists that you have in mind the fact that it's about the artist. It's not about your orange or your arrangement. It's about the artist. So whatever you put on that recording needs to not get in the way. You know, whatever the hook of the song is, you can't step on it with the horn parts. If there's an incredible lead vocalist, you don't step all over that vocal with your horn parts.

You know. If there's all these rock and roll bands have these group down on not you know, you don't step on that with horns because when you go to mix, you know, you're trying to get the horns to STIs stand out, But the guitar, who is the main guy in the band, is going so you gotta make sure he's hurt. And what you do, you can't hear the horns at all, So you have to pick your spots really carefully. And we had our horn ranger was Greg Adams for about twenty five years, and he got that

way of arranging down to a science. You know. He were really sparse arrangements when we did rock and roll bands, you know. And but when we played it was during the whole, you know, maybe right on the one or you know, bat I had that whatever it was, it was in the hole and they could mix it really loud without covering up all the stars of the show,

you know. And that's really the key. And what I find is when when I don't insist on having our arrangers, we get hooked up with other people that don't realize that. And for some reason, people seem to think that, especially rock and roll people. They seem to think, if you got sacks as well, you want to play low low fish doo doo doo dude. You know. But as I said, you've got three guitar players doing that, you know, so why would you do that? You know? And we had that.

That situation happened on an Aerosmith record. Just push play. If you listen to that recording, the song that we're on, it's not existent, you know. And that's because they insisted on using this arrange. I remember I told him, I said, you know, it really works better if we do the arrangement. No. No, our friend doesn't you know, he's arranged for Barbara Stress and he's really a musician. But I go, Okay, when are we gonna tell him? No, it's a Erros you know.

And uh, but you know, the arrangement just it wasn't the type of arrangement that we do, and so when they went to mix it, I couldn't really bring it up. You know, this as though we're not on the record, so we get the credit. You read the back of the album Tower Power Horns, You're like, great, where are they? You know? How about you? When you're writing, is this something that you do every day or is it something that really you have to be moved to do? Doc

writes every day. Doc carries a notebook with He's very passionate, right. I I've always And it's interesting because you know, I really make most of my money from my writing, you know, but I put very little time into it. But you know, like like we we had the pandemic, and uh, I make appointments for people, you know, I have a few people are write with, and sometimes I want to want to write with somebody new, and I'll just say, you know, how you doing Tuesday at eleven? You know, show up

and we write a song. In the old days, you know, me and Doc lived together, and you know, there's a lot of drug and alcohol use, so you're partying and getting high. It's like, that's right, we start to write, you know, but you know, now everybody's sober. You know, I'll got families, I'll got homes, and so we will make appointments. You know, well, show up and h We always pray first, you know, that's the first thing we do. And then we talk a little bit, you know, uh

what's going on? You know, I just kind of talk and then if anybody's got a particular idea, I might have a rhythm idea or a hook. Doc might have a lyrical idea. You know, I might have a court progression, or we'll just I'll just sort of start noodling around and oh that's cool. You know, It's like it's like fishing. You know, once you get a bite, then you really

did know. If if it's the book, then you want to write a story in the first verse that leads to it, and then after the first start, you want to develop that story further in the second verse, and then, you know, maybe you do the hook again, or maybe you take a left turn to do what's called the bridge, you know. And the bridge could be a musical bridge,

it could be a lyrical bridge. It could change chords completely, or it could be the same chord, put a little guitar thing over it, you know, but something that separates that does sort of a left turn, and then back to the hook or maybe half of a verse where you developed the story a little more, even maybe with a little extension on it, go to the hook and

then build the writer. This is probably a loaded question, but do you think that songwriting is something that anyone can do or is it something that you kind of have to be born with in some ways? Well, I don't know that you have to be born with it, but no, it's not something anybody can do. That's what I I I'm good. I feel a little better because I've I've I've played a number of instruments since i was a young teenager, and I've never been able to

write a song in my whole life. Try as I might, it's never been something that uh happens to me to write with people. And although during the pandemic, I wrote a few songs by myself and that that was the first I think. I just I like to bounce off of people, you know. To me, it's just easier. Well that was I was gonna ask you, are these songs that you've been working on during the pandemic, are they there a new album on the way or well I

want to do uh. You know, the last time we recorded, uh, besides the live thing, we did two albums Soul Side of Town, and then one came out called Step Up during the pandemic, and we recorded all that material at once. So I worked on it for like many years, you know, and it was twenty eight songs, you know. So that's a big project. But I mean it really paid off, you know, and UH had a coesiveness. We had two really great products with some bonus tracks that we could

use for Japan or Europe. It just worked out really well. So I'd like to do the same thing, record two albums, and I want to record a Christian album, you know. I I became a Christian in two thousand and four, and as a Christian, I started listening to gospel praise music, and it's my opinion that all the great soul singers are in the church. I'm a fan of Orlanda Adams, Dietrich Hadden. I just love all these uh gospel praise

singers and their productions. Really contemporary, you know, Fred Hammond, Yeah, yeah, you know. And so I want to do a Christian album and a secular album, but I want to record them all at once. Really cool. So that's the plan right now at tentative, you know. But meanwhile, everybody's writing.

I've written a bunch docs, always writing, the guys right, and when it's time to make the record, we'll listen to everything, choose some songs and get don't know, I know, you just got off the road, I think a matter of days ago, But any any plans for heading back out there soon? We were you know, we we We're not a band that says I'm going on tour and then you're you're off for a few months. We just got a model time. So we did our first gig at the Hollywood Bowl in August eight, and then we

flew across country. We had a couple of days off. We flew across country and we did a little East coast northeast run and then we came back and then we went to the Bay Area, did some days, came back, you know, so we kind of we do this little. Sometimes there are three weeks, sometimes you're five days. Sometimes it's a weekend. You know. Right now, I don't have a gig for almost three weeks and then I go out for I think six days. And that's how we

do it. We're just always in and out. And it's usually two hundred days a year we're away from home. And you know that that's not all gigs. It's travel days and days off on the road. But at least at least a hundred seventy gigs that still loving it. Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah people you know. Uh, I'm also in the recovery community, you know, so a lot of these people are the meetings that I attend. They know what I do now, you know. And there was like, so, so,

how do it feel it feel good to get back? Yes, it feels really cometable because we got back together. We did we did the Hollywood Bowl and went up to the East coasts and we were we located ourselves in Boston. We went up to New Hampshire, did two gigs in Boston and then went down to our Virginia and I think it was about three days in. We were all hanging out and uh, and Garibaldi goes, man, Yes, it's amazing the way it comes back so quick, you know.

And we had rehearsed a couple of couple of days, you know, but it's just right now. It just feels so in the pocket. And uh, you know, I have a great group of guys. I mean we are truly friends and brothers, and uh, we support each other and we miss each other, you know. So it's always great to get back out there and got a great crew, have great management. After all these years, you know, I've I've learned how to hire well. I could say that again. Absolutely, Oh, Amelia,

thank you so much. I don't want to take up too much more of your time, but it has been such a joy and a pleasure talking to you. I really and an honor he is in the ad. Thank you so much for your time today and your music. It really means a lot to me. Thank you ur news my pleasure. We hope you enjoyed this episode of

Inside the Studio, a production of i heart Radio. For more episodes of Inside the Studio or other fantastic shows, check out the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast.