Tobias Forge of Ghost

his complicated relationship with Christianity. Hailing from Sweden or melodic craftsmanship seems to be part of the national identity. He's gone by a new name for each of his albums. He was Papa Emeritus the first, the second, the third, and most recently Cardinal Copia for his last record, which explored the medieval black plague, fittingly released just before the world was shut down for a global pandemic. He embodies the character of Papua Emeritus the fourth on his latest album, Impara.

It's a philosophically complex study of the rise and fall of empires, inspired in part by Timothy Parsons book The Rule of Empires. Those who built them, those who endured them, and why they always fall. Given the tenuous geopolitical situation at the moment, his timing seems spot on. I'm so happy to welcome the mastermind behind Ghost to Bias Ford.

The last time you wrapped a tour for your last album, which was set in uh the medieval Time of Black Death, was just days before the world shut down for a global pandemic. And now, in this time of global turmoil and Eastern Europe, you're gearing up to release an album that explores the rise and fall of empires. Uh. Your timing is certainly spot on, though I hope it doesn't

set the tone for the next two years. Um. There's something you said in a recent interview that I thought was so interesting and that it really comes through in your lyrics. We tend to disregard the cyclical nature of history, and today review empires as these static, permanent things, which

ignores several millennia of human history. What led you to tackle the subject on empera Because it's interesting, it's but it's also uh, It's it's also um current and ever ever current, omni omni current, and I think that that's why we we received the news of the world in a peaval or let's specifically say the Western world and the people with such a shock because it it's close

to home rather than in some desert somewhere. Um. And and it's um fascinating, uh, mixed with horror obviously because I am also I'm just a person in the Western world who loves sucking ark music. I also need the world to function the way it it does and that and that it has been throughout our lives. I wanted to stay like that. So I don't want it to end.

I don't want it to I want to want certain things to change, but I want ideally, I want the clock to turn back to and just stay like that forever. That would be great. That was interesting that you set the album in in Victorian times. What was it about that era that that fascinated you. I guess the industrial revolution from that period probably set in motion a lot of the problems that continue to reverberate to this day.

I mean, sometimes you just do something because it looks cool. Um, it's just a it's just a visually pleasing time period because it has that um mixture of sort of old goth mixed of industrialism specifically. Actually I got the idea not for the Imperial Record. I already already knew that since many years back. But I got the idea, the visual idea um just in the beginning. It was just in the beginning of the pre Kailum promo campaign and I had a day off, no or no a day off.

I had a promo day in London and I was actually just for some reason, I was staying up at the King's Cross or at the St. Pancras station, and that looks like power move around there. Yeah, And I came in and I was I was going into St. Pancras station because there's a lot of stores there. I think I was just walking into two buy coffee or something, and I just went in. I mean obviously been there many times. I've taken the train from there to to Paris many times. But I just spent a few it's

just looking up a little just not doing anything. And I just noticed this sort of mixture between the gothic stony church like um Wall and they had with the massive industrial ceiling, very tory in and and it just walking out of there, it was just like, that's exactly what we're doing next. Time, Um, because I saw the mixture was so cool, and that once an idea like that drops, it's just like it just opens up this big branch. It just branches out very quickly in my head.

And we have presented a little bit of that on this work, but it's going to be I think even more in the future. Oh, it's it's so cinematic. I mean, I think I saw some of your your promo in uh in London for for this album. It's projected onto some buildings there, and it does it looks like it looks like a movie. It's like right out of some

Bramstrokes Jacula or something. Mean, it looks so cool. Uh. Something that I just appreciate about your storytelling is that it's not narrative in the strict sense, with a beginning, middle, and end like a film plot, But it's more of an exploration of a given topic from all these different angles, like a variation on a theme, and you get so many interesting points of view that way. Um, was this album sort of almost like a warning in a way.

I almost got the sense that the theme was those who don't remember the past are doomed to repeat it if you will. Yeah, I mean it's I think that all of our records have been alarming, all are missed in a way a new word that everybody knows nowadays. Um. But I think that the reason why this record sounds uh additionally alarmist is probably because of its uh timing, the same way that precal As you said, I had

a sort of clairvoyance over it. Um. But I think that the theme hasn't really changed much from throughout the records. It's it's always been sort of shining a light onto the murkiness of linear religion really linear um life codes um and the the destructive elements of of structural religion slash society. And by saying that, you cannot avoid saying political because it's that's what it is, vat it can and church and the Bible was put together for political reasons.

So yes, it's it's all about that. It's all about that. It's never been anything about It has nothing to do with God or anything. It was just to to to control people, to control this cult that they needed to have on their side, and just made things easier for me. It doesn't have that. It wasn't like that this record felt like it was taking everything to or two, and

not new in a new direction. It was just like, you know, just maybe you just get a little bit more poignant or or um with age or with age or rage, you just get a little bit more like to the point. But thematically it doesn't really differ much from the first two records, the first being always a little bit more vitious and a little bit just like throwing fun words into play, but the second one where the lyrics were a little bit more uh realistic, if

you will. I don't want to say that, but it's you know, there was always like an ambigus ambiguity between you know, the fictional world of of interesting Latin I Latin based words that you sort of associate with the with golf and death metal and all that, but I

also had an undertone of something streaked in there. Um. But if you, if you want to, you can just turn around, if you if you if you're one of those people who are like, we're a rock band, should talk about a fucking politics, you can just you can just easily see it for what it is. It's forty minutes of rock music. It's just a fucking rock record. That's what we do. We we play rock music. And then we go out on tour. That's that's what we do.

I mean, these songs, they just sound so enormous. I mean they sound custom made to be played at stadiums. At what point in your writing process do you begin

to think of an audience. Are you thinking early on, as you're putting, you know, the riffs together and writing the track, how they'll respond and how we'll go over on stage or does that come later and in the beginning are you just kind of emoting I think, as any architect that you you will at some point, even when you're creating your idea, think of practical things like this giant slab of concrete cannot float in thin air?

Or can it? You know, yes it can. If we hide this underneath it, it will look like it's floating in thin air. But you don't just disregard the fact that a giant concrete slab will sucking, not just elevate, and that that is you You do think about that when you're writing songs. If you if you are a band, if you write songs to be performed, there will be at some point a practical evaluation of the track. How does this work out? How how do we play this,

How will how will it sound? How will this translate? Is this understandable? It's just and but but I so did grindcore bands as well. You you orgonomically need to figure the song out to make it feel a certain way. And and that's that's what's what's arranging songs and for an ensemble is it's to how to coordinate it to be performed. And uh, you know most bands do. And I mean even I don't know if the Shacks had it, had it like uh and go with because it sounded

it like that. They just started making noise and that became entertainment as well. So it's you don't always have to if you don't want to. But if you if you're if you have your if the expectancy is for people to show up and and dance along to your music, it will greatly benefit if you sort of have that in mind. I love that you just referenced the Shags. I love that album so much. Uh yeah, me too good. It's it's the utmost perfected manifestation of exactly the opposite

of everything I spoke of. It's just it's an endurance test to listen to for anyone listening right now who hasn't heard that check it out. Uh. They are a group of I I think teen girls in the late sixties whom I think their father had a vision. If I recall that, they that that that God wanted them to be in a band, and so he gave them instruments without really instructing them. And it's just pure it's punk,

maybe twelve years early, I guess. As a way of thinking about it, it's definitely Uh, it's an interesting sound, yeah, but it definitely it definitely sounds like they just pressed the record button and then they took up the instrument for the first time in their lives. And me and my daughter sits and listen to that in the car all the time. My friend foot food food, food, food, food.

It's Halloween, and it's impossible even if you're if you're somewhat musical, it's still like an completely not You cannot sing a long to it. You can just mimic the sounds and just sort of like, uh, sort of do wonky moves, and but it's it's entertainment and that is what music is, regardless off you're listening to Fucking Yes or the Shags, It's meant to entertain you. So they did. They did exactly. They wanted to be rock band and they played rock music to make people smile, and they do.

They still do, and that's fifty five years ago whatever, you know, so that's pure as well. We said starting this conversation, you you just wrapped the first leg of your tour playing I know you opened the show with Kasian and played a lot of songs from the new album that's not out yet. What was the feedback like from the crowd on these new songs that, in a

lot of cases they had never heard before. Huntress Moon has obviously I've been out for quite a while, so that that really feels like one of our like regulars now Kayserrian was, I mean, I know, not to sound fucking cocky or anything, but you know, I knew there was a good song and it's a big opener, so it's like I knew that people will like it, people

should like it, therefore we're playing it. And but we already knew beforehand that people were going to be a little bit of non responsive, if you will, the same same way that they were to Spirit when we started playing that in on the Maliora cycle before the album came out the same way that people reacted to Parispera and in Ferry. Sorry, we just say Parispera. So I never I have said the full title in ten years.

Um we we did that as well. So we we've done that so many times, like coming out on stage on a news cycle with a big opener on a record that you haven't heard yet. Um. So it's it's almost like a tradition. Um. And it always turns into the same sort of, uh, you know, deer in headlights sort of situation in the beginning, and then when we go from the first song into Rats, all of a sudden, the crowd sort of what becomes comes a lot. But

that's fine, they'll they'll learn. You mentioned Hunter's mood. I meant to mention this earlier. I want to congratulate you for having that in the soundtrack to the Lace Halloween movie Halloween Kills over the over the end credits, which is like prime soundtrack spot. That must have been a cool moment for you as a as a big horror fan. Of course, yeah, I know what. I don't know what to say more than that, of course, it was a

big thing. Uh. I've always been ever since I was a kid watching these films and you sort of uh noticed the um the connection obviously, I mean big, big examples. So that was obviously Man Behind the Mask and Friday six with It, yeah, or something like that. And I've always been in awe of of of horror film music, but the way that a lot of rock bands source associated with the horror I liked A Night of Living Dead obviously was no Return of the Living Dead, sorry,

Return of the Living Dead. The eighties sort of comic comedic horror film I'll you know, obviously had this uh great display of a lot of cool rock and punk bands. So that was always something that I wanted to do, which is cool. I say, could you ever uh following the footsteps of like John Carpenter and see yourself writing a script for horror movie or something like that. I'm

very interested in the cinematic world. I don't know if if I were given the card blanche to sort of go in head first into cinema, I don't know if horror films would be my first get to go to. Actually, Oh interesting, I am a giant fan of horror, but that was that would not be my first I am

more of a UM. If I were to make films, it would be more in in some some weird universe between UM and and you know, with with the quirky and gothic sort of little shadow of Lynch, but in the quirkiness of Wes Anderson and and you know, more of the Cohen Brothers, more more comedic. But anything could happen, sort of mixture between everything. I'm way more like a mishmash sort of person person sets in there too. I feel like I can see a little bit of that

maybe yeah, but never. I don't think I would ever go into like full on or just just for the sake of it being scary. It would be, but in the film by me, it would would definitely like if someone died, it would be like in a horrifically bloody way just because it's that would be a fun way to sort of just incorporate an element of splatter um. But the story itself would be sort of comedic, tragic and romantic, in some sort of weird fairy tale of

complete un real. Dude, is m hearing you talk about the kind of ideal movie you would like to make. I'm so interested in just your incredibly diverse influences. I love that you close your shows with Emmy Lou Harris's Sorrow and the Winds, which is not something that you know, people would traditionally associate with with you know, hard rock and roll in metal. UM. I know you've cited people like Blue Oyster Colt and you play a Metallica cover on this recent tour, but you've also cited tore Amos

and Andrew Lloyd Webber's influences. What is it about someone like Andrew Lloyd Webber who who really inspires you? Somebody that I wouldn't have automatically thought would be an influence

of yours because you write hit songs. I think that there are there are several uh what do you call, like YouTube profiles that likes to to make um, you know me musical versions of of anything, and even though that they are joking, I think that there are a lot of musicals that are written that way because people think that if you were in the musical, you talk about this and you point over there and it's it's

so bad that I, you know, I just want to puke. Unfortunately, a few films that have been made like as musicals are also like insanely bad, even when it's people that I would expect to do better, And whereas Andrew Lloyd Webber has done, it's like normal talking and then all of a sudden they erupt into a song. And when they erupt into a song, it's memories or Music of the Night, Phantom of the Opera, the song that's our

fucking that. They are fucking smash hits. So if you're making theater or and it goes into musicals, and and I prefer it when like each track is like a banger, it needs to be like a real proper standalone uh song from the radio. And that's what separates his music so for much from from the the standard musical, because a lot of the standard musical are are very generic. It's a style of music which to compare it to

to horror films. And this is where um, if if if I would, if I were to talk about not the use not the horror genre in general, where that sort of comes in different uh time periods and all that, but if because they're there are a lot of Italian and eighties horror that I like for maybe different reasons

than saying that the films are rate. They might be entertaining, but they might not be great cinematic crafts, Whereas the best cinematic films, the best horror films I know, are made by people who or creators who aren't necessarily into making horror in the first place. And you know the Horror Efficionados and that's not a horror film, Yes they are, so, The Exorcist, Jaws, Shining Dracula, one of my favorite films of all time. All of these films are one of

my favorite films, favorite films of all time. But they were all way it made by people who normally does not do horror, and that's what made them so great, because they take all the horror and in all these elements that they and they they turn it into the best horror film they can ever must stir with drama and ah humor and comedy and romance and and and

really deepened like character um materialization, if you will. Wherever, but and and whereas so much of the crap of horror is because they are made by people who just watched horror, who became uh filmmakers to make horror. So it's all just a regurgitation of of of of the genre. And that's the same thing with a lot of heavy

metal and death metal and all that. It's just like it's just repeated, uh, indulgent sort of homaging, which which is which is not the foundation that you want to build on if you want to take the genre forward or add anything valuable to that, you're just echoing it. And I think it's the same thing with a lot of musicals. Um that some people are some people are just so fascinated with the format that anything that resembles that just qualifies that because it's just the sound of

a musical. How are you you? I'm standing here? How about yourself? Are you not? Um? And it's I hate that. I absolutely fucking hate ship like that. It's horrible. And but that's why Andrew Lloyd Webber seemed to be. He seemed to be like very much like Sammy Cooper. I think he listens to a lot of other things and then he writes the musical here and there and that that's I mean, that's such a beautiful way to get

back into all of your influ just too. I mean on a track like spill Ways, that that piano part, I mean, that's that could be you know, something straight out of Aba or something like that too, and it's it's so beautiful when juxtaposed with these huge heavy riffs too. I love that interplay and to to to have all these influences come together, it's it's it's its own unique thing. Like you said, it's not just you know, regurgitation from what became before and just because you're so in love

with that genre. It's all the things that you love and you've built something new out of it. And that's what is amazing with what you do, in particular with

this new record. I really think that comes across. Yeah. Well, speaking of regurgitation to the point where it's almost vomiting onto myself actually would be my constant whacking off over abba um, which you you sort of shown a little light on there because Um, I've found myself constantly sort of trailing them, not only because I'm a big fan, but how we have sort of ended up in there in the same studios as they have, and that has been sort of a ah, a little bit of a thing.

Um where you know, um in Pera was recorded in uh studio Atlantis, which back in the day, if you start looking through the records, you will see there was called metronome back in the day, and that's where recorded most of their big hits. And if you if you go online kids and you see the clip where abbas recording Dancing Queen, that's exactly the studio that we recorded in Para and the same mixing console, the same gadgets in the background, the same microphones, everything, And I have

to confess it's the same piano, and it's the same aremba. Yeah, and it's the same big you know, con sir on the record that they had on on Money, Money Money, for example, I think it was and Mama Mea I was recorded there DoD DoD DoD, doom ding, doom ding, doom ding, doomding. That's the same thing. So it's during the recording, it was always like a little bit of that vibe. You have to go over to the murmba

and play Mama Mia and uh. And later this year, not to go into any detail about it, but into into another studio to record something else, and that was the studio where they recorded the album UM. So that would be take a chance on Me and Eagle was in that studio. UM. And then to make things even more funny, as like almost like a little time lapse was the fact that we recorded Meliora in Benny Anderson's own studio where they after us, where they after us

recorded the new Alma Alma record. Wow. But yeah, we've shared shared studios three times. I've I've heard um that you're already got your eye towards the next project, chapter chapter six, whatever that may be. Do you have any hints of of what's to come? Uh? No, I want to give that away yet understood. Oh, Tobias, thank you so much for your time today. I want to take up too much more of your time, but it's been such a pleasure speaking you. Thank you so much for

your time on your music. Thank you, Thank you very much. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Inside the Studio, a production of I Heart Radio. For more episodes of Inside the Studio or other fantastic shows, check out the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcast forever you listen to your favorite podcast.