The Head and the Heart

Every Shade of Blue is a homecoming. Recorded in the same Seattle studio they recorded their first two records, but their growth and pension for musical reinvention remains strong. They're latest is packed with lush, cinematic orchestrations and a surplus of huge hooks. As the title suggests, the lyrics examine the full spectrum of emotion and the degrees to which we connect with our friends and loved ones, potent topics

giving our lengthy period of global disconnection. It's been a long year, the wrong year to be left alone, they sing on the stirring title track. An other favorites Virginia Win in the Night and Owed to the sense of comfort one feels when returning to the place that shaped you. It's particularly affecting given the last two years, which are forced all of us to redefine our relationship to home. I'm so happy to welcome Jonathan and Charity from the

Head and the Heart. I hope you enjoy our conversation. That is such a pleasure to speak to you, and it is such a pleasure to hear your incredible music. I know we're we're speaking a few months before Every Shade of Blue is actually due out, but I was lucky enough to hear it, and while listening to it, the word that came into my mind. And it's an overused word, but I feel like it's the most appropriate now. It's just epic. I mean not not only just the

length of the album, but the sound. It just envelopes you. It's so cinematic. It's just so huge and warm. I mean, they're intimate moments on it, but just overall sonically. Was there an intent during these sessions to make this like just such a big statement. I don't know that anyone had any idea or or ability to uh see into the future, especially in um uh. To be honest with you,

it's taken so many zigzags. I mean, you know when I listened to it back, UM, like I'm still very much aware of Like, there's batches of songs we did, like like oh, these three songs we did with Andrew Sarlow and and those were the first songs we did remotely, and we had no idea if it would work what we were doing because we all kind of had to become like our own you know, engineer at home, and then we would send it to the producer and he

could kind of help doctor things if necessary. UM. So it was a lot of it was kind of done in patches, and then um, as things started to evolve, which I always relatively confident about, like once you start doing, um, you just kind of keep going. It sort of presents like what what it's becoming to you, um, and then you can kind of start leaning in steering. But I'd say for a while it was it was um, it

was pretty I don't know, anchorless at first. UM, And it didn't feel good or bad because again it was like the start of a pandemic and no one really knew what was happening at all. So UM, I don't know if they answer to your question or charity if you have any better insights or yeah, well yeah, no, I think I think our original intention was you had to kind of like work with different producers, you know,

and just collaborators. And so our first thing on the books was supposed to be in person with Andrew Sarlow to do like six songs, and because that was the first thing on the books, and we're going to do it like north of Seattle, UM, in a studio that we had like done a music video but had never

actually recorded the band. So that was like kind of that was pretty exciting, but then it was like April where like we can't really do this, and so then we moved things to remote and that just opened a whole new world of like we don't know how this is going to go, what this will produce, but we're just going for it, you know, because we we we can were inspired and we have songs, you know, and

to start to like working on and um. So yeah, we kind of did a lot of batch stuff that was mostly remote, and then we got together physically and we kind of ebbed and flow like we we talked about, let's release a bunch of songs, you know, like do the whole rainbow a myriad of things, or no, let's let's do be a little more cohesive and do a

shorter album. And we just kind of back and forth, back and forth, and then finally landed like on where I think we all feel like truly like this feels representative of the time and of the band and you know, um, so yeah, it's a it's an epic arc of tunes. I mean being forced to work in this whole new way, I mean working remotely is probably something you wouldn't orinarily choose to do. But because you're in this new space,

was that liberating in any kind of way? Because you know, new approach leads to new ideas and new ways of looking at things you look at I mean, I mean it, Yeah,

it depends on the person you ask. Of the bands, you know, um, for me personally, um, and I know a couple others are it felt really liberating because you know, there were just less cooks in the in the physical kitchen, um, and so it kind of I felt like I could be a bit freer to just throw a bunch of paint at the wall, you know, and then wait a couple of days for the response. Versus kind of it

happening in real time, you know. Um, and I think that just where I'm at personally artistically, that felt really free, um, to like be able to be able to take more risks and not like fear that there's going to be this kind of like the critique in real time. I us you know, I haven't thought of that. Yeah, And so that's my personal response, you know, I know in

the process like and that this is great. I love doing an interview with John and the fact that that we're both able to be present because we are like very very opposite, both pisces. But you know, you know so so you should so, John, what is your response

to that? Hated it? I'm just kidding. Um, Yeah, I think I have like a maybe a balance of enjoying both because for me, I was sort of I was already kind of using like writing and recording at home as my kind of current way of writing, Like instead of having like just a guitar or a piano and just kind of banging out until you had all your lyrics, I was I was starting to become more of that type of writer where I would use like a drum loop or a progression and just turn turn a drum

sound and to a into a saxophone and just let that loop for twenty minutes and then throw a weird cadence out because I was really trying to get away from cadences and melodies that I was locked into from the last four records. So I was already kind of

experimenting with working alone at home. UM. But in terms of like, once you have that sort of starting point, I actually personally love the immediacy of like, oh, I thought what I was doing was what I wanted to do, and then I heard Chris come in with a based idea or Tyler you know on drums, would sense before I would like, all right, bro, your verses long enough hit me with a pre course and by his pill, I know what that means. So I do start to

sort of miss some of that immediate collaboration. UM. But that being said, I also I'm just one of those people who kind of thrives in um, the immediacy of like friction, and it's like for no, I'm not saying it's good or bad, but like I tend I tend to enjoy like, um cool, that part of the idea was great. I don't like the second half, and I like to know that like as soon as possible, and then I'm just like, cool, cool, cool, let's figure out

the second half. Um. So I kind of missed some of that, but to be honest with you, to see, you know, the sort of opposite end of the spectrum band members really thrive and kind of come to life in a way that I that I hadn't been able to see um in some time. I feel like it's

like it's totally worth it. Like because I was just listening to Charity, you know, describe her her perspective, and I was just immediately thinking of some some of your lyrics and melodies on some of these songs that I remember first hearing them, and I was so blown blown away by them because they just felt like like a it just felt like very innovative as to what I imagine you doing. So UM, yeah, I think I think it was. It was great to see other people shine

in that in that new sort of of arena of intimacy. Yeah. I feel like I feel like, you know, as I kind of like understand more about myself, I guess, and as an artist, you know, like when we were able to work in the home studio. Maddie, my partner who was also in the band. We we actually finished our

home studio February January February. UM, good, yeah, planned timing and uh uh, you know, I think that I just realized that I really, like my I can flow just independently and I'll like just a bunch of ideas will just like come to me in a short amount of time. And so it was really great to be like Maddie, you know, was able to engineer me while I was

recording tracking. Um, so it was even more seamless. And that way I could just like get all the ideas down, you know, like just that funnel them all, you know, without where I think when we are kind of in a in a in an in person full band situation, it's just like it is a little bit more collaborative, which is great and healthy. But you know, you know

what I'm saying. I just realized that like for my voice, I can rattle off a bunch of ship just you know, all at once and then and then have the delayed feedback. But you know, it's always so interesting here everybody, I mean, just all the many ways that songs can come together. And I know it sounds like that when you finally did get in a room together the studio. You were in the studio Litho and Seattle where you recorded I think your first two albums, and I think you also

used the same engineer, Sean Simmons. Right, how did that impact the session? It was there a sense of of homecoming and comfort that you know, made you feel, you know, kind of the opposite of working at home before, instead of having this new approach. Was there something comforting about returning back to something more familiar after the you know, however long it was year and a half of uncertainty and all of that, I imagine that must have had a really uh comforting effect. Yeah, yeah, I feel I

mean it's interesting. I think that like Home, whether not consciously, kind of is part of the theme, um kind of kind of our interpreting our relationship with home and understanding of home, you know, and I think for so many of us in pandemic times, we had a new found relationship with home if you're privileged enough to to stay at home and um, you know, I think even like the Virginia Went in the Night song, you know, it kind of on a you know, in that kind of

micro level. That song kind of deals with that relationship, and I think just the idea of coming back home to our first to Seattle to Studio Litho to do this, um you know, also has that theme and and and I think it was definitely comforting, but it was exciting because you know, we hadn't seen we've kind of seen Shaun a bit, but we hadn't worked with him since

those earlier days. And we also brought in Jesse from l A, you know, and it was like this fresh new not home perspective to kind of into our into our original home back there. So it was it kind of felt like a cool, fresh, healthy juxtaposition, um uh in in that kind of that relationship a foot in the past and in a foot in the future, you know, yeah, yeah,

totally exactly. You almost verbatim answered my next question, which is pretty astonishing talking about how the last two years have really altered, you know, all of our definitions of home. But I imagine especially for for touring muse as, it must have been a really interesting adjustment and and a change for you. Um how how was that for you

adjusting to that? Well, I think my wife and I are going to have like separation anxiety the minute I leave for more than three hours, um, which was interesting because at first I don't think we've ever spent more than six weeks consecutively together. We've been together for six years, so um, you know, because she's used to be being around for a month, then ago on tour for a month, um, and typically she would wake up and go to the office and I would rearrange the apartment into a studio

and then I'd tear it down as you come home. UM. So yeah, it was a really interesting change. UM. I mean on a on a personal level, I think it's sort of created this sort of combustion or like maybe not combustion or maybe that too, but like this sort of bottleneck of like, all right, we're in the skinny situation, like you know, some of those things that you kind of put off and you're like, I'll deal with that

when I come back. There's no that you You just have to deal with it, you know, and you can just start chipping away at it. UM. So it sort of forced your hand to um to start you know, working on yourself, working on your relationships and UM and UM. But at the you know, on the other side, it was like our identity has been wrapped up in being performers for over a decade and that was pretty that was a pretty hard hard fall. I'd say for me, um, just sort of what is my purpose? Um, I'm a

very like goal oriented person. I can like remember watching uh Michael Jordan's documentary and he would create these like real or false riffs between him and a player an opponent, just so he would like get himself to that that level he need to get at. And I was like, fun, that's what I do that. Not I'm not comparing myself to Michael Jordan's because one of a kind man there, but like in a way, I do that similar thing.

And it's kind of hard to do that without this sort of competitive nature that ends every single one of my nights when I'm on tour. And I was like, damn, I need to just like I have to learn how to just the sine wave becomes like the peaks and valleys are shorter now and how And it was hard for me to cope with I'm doing really well with like high seas um, or at least I thought I did well. I don't think I was doing well, but

I felt alive. Let's put it that way. UM. So yeah, it was a challenging but beautiful and grounding, um eventual process. I think on my end, you go new mom. Yeah, I mean, let's interest saying as soon as you said the word identity, you know that that is exactly what

came to mind for me. Is like literally what we do, our musical identity, you know, stripped from us, Like we weren't able to kind of go on the road and do what we were used to doing and um in exercising that and um which ironically for me personally, I kind of hid was having an existential crisis before, which led in perfectly to this bed of time where I could, um uh have like just more space to kind of

process that. And I think as a band, you know, because of that time and space and uncertainty, um and being kind of off that carousel like a tour, I think that we started to kind of try and identify what our identity is collectively and and accepting that, you know. And I think that every Shade of Blue is so much in extent of that process. I mean you mentioned earlier that you know, sense of homecoming is sort of

something that shows up on this album. When we're speaking now, it's just a few days after you released your latest single, Virginia Win the Night, Uh, which seemed to have, you know, these themes of being grounded in the place that you're from. Can you tell me more about that song? Is incredible track? Yeah, thank well, thank you? Um yeah, I you know, it's interesting, It's it's almost for me. It's sort of this like when I met my wife. I met her in Chicago,

sort of we both met on usual ground. I'm from Virginia, she's from San Francisco, and when I started, when we started dating, I sort of just eventually wound up in San Francisco because she had the sort of more five She's very much placed here with her work, and I can kind of float around. And I didn't really, I don't. I don't know that I understood how much that was going to affect me. You talk about identity as well.

I mean, I just started to realize that some of these in Richmond, Virginia, it's not like a small town, but it kind of really actually is like a tiny city. It is a tiny city, but I never really looked at that way. So a lot of these like mannerisms like looking people in the eye when you walk by

them on the street. Like you live in New York, so you're like, I don't know what you're talking about, but living in Richmond and like knowing your neighbors and saying hello or just like just really things that you guy, as I say them out loud, don't really seem that substantial when they all kind of add up, and then that whole stack isn't really relevant to where you move, like somewhere like a it's the West Coast, be at San Francisco, Um, quicker pace, much more dense population, um,

mostly transitory and right like, I feel like most of these people aren't from here, so a lot of them are now post after the pandemic, a lot of people left. You were just kind of chilling, but um, it just created a whole new identity of of what you're supposed to be like in a place. And I really didn't relate to it. I've grown to kind of acclimate. But well, I'm like, yeah, we're going back, baby. Um I'm playing

the long game, you know what I'm saying. Long game. Um. So for the song Virginia Winning the Night is kind of like I think when I wrote that song. At that point, I wasn't sure if I was ever going to be able to return to that feeling, that that sense of grounding, that sense of place where I feel so rooted in a way that I really didn't anticipate. Um, Like like verse two is like travel it all over in my life and nothing slowed me down. This place that I used to love, Well, it's just another town.

Like that's legitimately how I thought I needed to accept that, which, by the way, that line made my mom cry because she was just like, no, he's never cook because my mom lives there. Um. But that's like so that's kind of for me. It was like I was just like, well, I'm an adult. I guess what you have to do. You have to move away. You've got to accept as they are, you know, buck up, Like your wife's family is out here, you can visit your family over there.

So for me, it was sort of this, like I did any crisis in itself of holy sh it, what do I do? This place is really who I am, But I've built such an extension of who I am in a completely different part of the country. Um. And it was me grappling with that is what the song is about for me personally, and was this something that it's interesting now, I mean hearing about how everybody's relationship to home shifted during the pandemic. I mean, what was

that sentiment? Uh? Was the song written in the midst of the pandemic that that have an influence on that? Or was that actually before when you were more you know, on the road and it was it was written before um, it was recorded during UM. Yeah, so I had kind of been working on it. I had I had bits and pieces of it from probably like I don't know, three or four years ago, and didn't you know how to form it into a song, and then eventually it

made itself into a new finished song. So yeah, it was written before the pandemic, but and then we recorded it remotely, like within the first year of the pandemic. An amazing track. I mean, I I'm always curious how bands choose their their first single to release, which in this case is is the title track, and that was released in January. UM, because obviously first impressions are important, either you know, from a musical standpoint or just from

the message of the song. It could mean something that really is kind of a signpost to what this album tackles. Tell me more about the title track. I mean, I know it sounds like it's more about trying to kind of peel back the getting to know the different shades of people in a way in the shades of a of a person that you're close to. Yeah, I love that question or just that that that thought, because I

think about that too. Every time I hear a band, whether I know them as friends or they're just a band that I listened to you, I'm always like, Okay, that's the first Yeah, what is that reason? Because it's never right or wrong, it's just what they want to do with it. And I feel like the meaning of every shade of blue the song? And then why did

we choose to put that out first? Or kind of two different animals like, because I feel like at that point, you know, we could have put out any of these songs first, but in terms of where like the climate or the like social consciousness felt, whether it's a mood or a color or just literally something about that song just felt like what we were moving out of. It's a very like somber, sort of purply blue feeling to me.

And that's just kind of how like January. Like I was just imagining, hopefully we're on the tail end of this of this mostly uh mostly a you know, kind of a struggle feeling of a pandemic, and then we wanted to sort of work our way towards something a little more bright, joyful, lighter. It's that one just felt like like the mood of the social climate. You know, maybe maybe two much to to claim to know, but um,

I don't know, does that make any sense. We're emerging, we're emerging from the sea, and now we're starting to climb up hill. There we go. Yeah, I really wished I could I could give you a Responseolutionary Charity's taking this for the rest of you. I'll just I'll just be listening. I mean, the color element is so interesting to me. Especially blue has a really storied past in music, from Miles Davis to Joni Mitchell to you know, Carl

Parkins and blue suede shoes. I mean, it's it's definitely you know, to Mac Miller, Oh my god, I did actually right, It's it's like one of many Miles David's books that I have. I'm obsessed with Miles Davis. Is there an element of synaesthesia when when either of you are writing, Is that something that's at play when when you work now to belate for me? Yeah? Yeah, you interesting?

Oh yeah, sure I was. I was recently reading the Paul McCartney book about his lyrics, which which is like, you know, pages and it's so cool, and he's talking about all the stories behind his songs, and I was struck by how often many of his song either melodies or just lyrical ideas came to him in dreams. And I just thought that was interesting. Although I guess there's probably a deep connection between the subconscious and creativity, so

maybe that's not that unusual. But I just want to ask you, what are some of the most interesting or unique circumstances that uh, song ideas have come to you? The early morning, late evening dream state is like fertile ground. I think for it's you know, inspiration for for me personally, I just totally I think, I just because that's sub conscious. I'm i'm, i'm, I'm I'm so self critical, you know, I think, um, it's it keeps me from becoming prolific.

And I think I think that in the dream state, I'm not you know, my own personal critic is is half asleep. So I think I think that I'm able to receive and kind of put you have more of an output, you know. Um, yeah, I love. I totally

identify with the dream state of inspiration. Yeah, I mean sometimes it's like yeah, sometimes it's something sort of more profound like that, and then sometimes it's literally when I'm just like doing dishes, I think when I'm not yeah, I mean, and I think it goes kind of you that subconscious sort of subconscious thing like you're saying, is well charity, where like, I'm not focused on me. I'm not focused on what I've done in the past or what I need to be doing. It's literally just like

a very mechanical motion. I'm just doing the dishes, tuning out, and then all of a sudden you start humming along into something and then you go away. Is that in the world yet, No, it's not. Okay, that's something I just came up with in and let's just start working on that. Um. But that made me think, what about didn't didn't let's be still for you? Did that start

by like I'm a tellpool. Yeah, Martha Texas we had day. Yeah, it was Martha Okay, Yeah, I just love that that visual you know of just like were you in a bathrobe? Because that's what I That's what I'm picture it is. I think I was. That's amazing thing. I was white terry claws. It was. It was one of those like motels that where you feel like like no one's gonna see you. I mean, I don't know if you've ever been to Marfa, Texas, but it's a pretty uh small

population of people. Um yeah, And it was just sort of it was you know, Another thing too, is that where I feel like there's a very noticeable pendulum swing, Like that was a very stressful tour long and then it was just like day off, very like Marfa. There's like there's just a lot of stimulation to very little stimulation, and then I feel like that's typically when something seems to have a chance to like peek its head out. Yeah.

I also I also think the being if I'm watching like a music documentary or at a show, um and I miss here lyrics and then I transcribed that, you know, like in the notes on my phone as completely wrong, and then that will spur a new idea, uh you know. Um, So mishearing is also like, you know, motivating. That's so interesting. Wow, I oh my gosh, I've been doing that a lot, likely because of the masks and everything too, like the

first Engineers. Yeah, right at the time. Oh my goodness. Well, I I don't want to take up too much more your time. I have so many more questions, but just my, my, my last one to end on. I I was, um, I think I saw this on Twitter. Someone said, and I agree that you really seem to reinvent yourself with

every new album. Uh. Is it hard to strike a balance between evolving creatively while still staying true to all the fans that have you know, been with you all this time and you know, love everything that came before. How do you strike that balance? For me, the secret is to never think about that, because it's a good answer. The first record happened to have been what we had written been, but that first record could also have been

any single thing in the world. I think it's it's our We are filters, these people in this band, we are filters, and I think it's the filtration of what comes in and then out of us that is the makeup of of of the choices we make. So we are still the same filters. There's just different ideas generating. So I trust, I just trust the filtration system, which is the head and the heart to that is what people are drawn to. It doesn't not necessarily was it

acoustic electric produced stripped. It's where it's just the filtration system, I think. So I don't ever really think about what the fans are going to do or not do, um, because I don't know that I could necessarily. I don't know that if I did, it would make my songs any better. So I don't really know what you're supposed to do with that. I mean, you just kind of like,

I don't know, what do you think? Yeah? I think I think, um, yeah, being intentive to the filtration system is really important and I think before in my life, so you know, Jordan really comes down the filtration system. You know, it's the old cliche, the cliche, you know. I think I think that you know totally, and it comes down to like for me, I think like we're a beast of collaboration where we've maintained, you know, we established a foundation of being a democratic band. And there's

more than one song. There's multiple songwriters in this band, so it's kind of a very unique beast and dance you know, of of collaboration and kind of being harmonious. And it's always that chase, you know, will forever be that chase of harmony. And I think that um, along the way, like we'll create we'll produce an extension of

the filtration system. Uh well, I do feel like one thing to add is like I feel like one of Charity's roles, which I thought, this is what you were actually gonna get at, um was like I feel like some of some of because I actually am so blind to that necessity that your your initial question, which I

think is a great question. Um, I think because I'm so blind to it, like I probably would not do as well with actually staying true to fans if I didn't have people around me like Charity, who is very good at sensing when she's like, cool, I see where you're going. That's great. But this other thing is also great, and it it's in a realm that feels like us, that feels like the next thing to do. And so I'm very fortunate to have all of us are very

fortunate to have that type of barometer. And um, she just has a sense about her that is kind of it doesn't like necessarily give you lines to stay inside of. But I think charity is very good at like um sensing or guiding keeping things sort of on a path because I'm I'm bound to just mo like freaking figure eight. Yeah you're I mean you're like such a craftsman, you know, like like like you you are in in the weeds, You're in the you know, you're you're just head down

craft and craft and crafting. You know, I think, you know, which is like really inspiring. And I think that that I'm like, you know, envisioning kind of like how things are fitting and and to me, authenticity And what's the best thing that we can do is is do something that is an extension of our authentic selves. And so the more that we kind of are like stepping into that, the like it doesn't matter what genre, what sound, what you know, um, something is categorized as or fits into,

it's just it will be. That's to me, that's the paramount. Just from the lines that you're the roles that you're both delineating, it sounds like you need both the head and the heart now, you know, you know it's crazy. No I's ever done that before really oh my god, alright, well soon's like it's it's I mean, that is a hunt to present true. That wasn't I hadn't had that written down, I promise, but oh anyway, sorry I had

to um. Oh my goodness. Jonathan Charity, thank you so much for your your your time, your insight, and most importantly, your music. It's been such a pleasure talking you. Thank you so very much. Wise, thank you very much, Jordan, and we really appreciate you taking the time to do this. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Inside the Studio,

a production of I Heart Radio. For more episodes of Inside the Studio or other fantastic shows, check out the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast.