Tears For Fears

Named for a quote from pioneering psychologist Arthur Yan of their stunning breakthrough, The Hurting helped bring the topic of mental health into popular music and radio hits like Mad World, Shout Sowing the Seeds of Love, and of course, the immortal MTV classic Everybody Wants to Rule the World helped inspire the sound of a host of contemporary artists, ranging from the Weekend Lord in the ninety to hip hop

titans like Drake and Kanye West. The duo parted company at the dawn of the nineties, only to join forces once again for the well received two thousand three album Everybody Loves a Happy Ending. As the title suggests, this was intended to be a short lived reunion. Most of the tie up loose ends musically and give fans a sense of closure, But now, almost two decades later, they're back with the tipping point. The record had something of a difficult birth, taking shape over the course of nearly

ten years. Early sessions with a crew of outside songwriters left the band so uninspired that they nearly parted company once again. But then the pair got back to basics, holding up in a room with acoustic guitars, just like they did when they first teamed up as teens. The resulting record is a stunning display of musical virtuosity and radical vulnerability, inspired in large part by the death of

Roland Orzabal's wife. Occasionally dark and moody, but never Maudlin, it's a hopeful meditation on mental health, mortality, and moving on. I'm so happy to welcome rolland Orzibal and Kurt Smith, who together are Tears for Fears. In the statement for the album's release, you had words to the effective before everything went so right. First, everything had to go wrong, And I feel like that's how the best arts it

a little bit of adversity. Uh. You originally working on a very different album made with a host of outside writers, basically a collection of potential singles, rather than an album that that spoke for you and your shared experience. And I think I've read that you jokingly called it UH twos for Fierce to Musical, which sums it up pretty well. How did you go from there to the tipping point which is just so deeply personal and meaningful and honest

and just has such a surplus of soul. Was there a point when you know you realize you had to go in this different direction? Um? Yeah, I think so. I mean we were, as you said, we we've it felt like a collection of attempts at a single. So so the premise was, you know that we we should go and write with you know, modern songwriter hit writers produces um and try and drag us kicking and screaming into the twenty one century. Um. But the problem with that is you don't have a shared history. Um. They

don't have that. The lyrical content um, and the subject matters really kind of secondary to them. Most of the time. They're looking for sort of melody lines and production more than anything else. And we didn't feel it was particularly honest, and by the end of it, well, we felt we were left it with. You know, basically, we had this finished album with twelve tracks. There were twelve attempts at a modern hit single, and it didn't have any storyline or arc or EBB and flow and really didn't tell

our story. Um lyrically, it didn't have the depth, and so we kind of went back to the drawing board and went full circle and decided to sit down in my house in Los Angeles and write with two acoustic guitars and see what came from that. And this one song, the opening track of the album, No Small Thing, came

and we had in in. In the sort of interim period between deciding we wanted to finish this and writing that song, we'd gone back over the old material to decide if anything there was worth keeping, and we decided we really liked five songs. The recordings were secondary. We just knew those five songs fit in with the storyline, and um, so we we set about finishing the other half of the album and No Small Thing was the

first thing to come. And then it became kind of easy. Um, you know, it was it was us realizing that we really are an album band and not a single band. We've never gone in search of a hit single, never have done in our careers. We've you know, the singles we've released have only ever been singles taken from an album we have finished. So um, we went, you know, we we went at it with the viewpoint of finishing

something we considered to be a good album. You mentioned those small thing It's such an incredible way to open the record. It opens with a sound that I don't traditionally associate with you, that kind of Southwestern acoustic guitar, almost like a Malty Robins song. I got kind of like al Paso vibes or something like that. It's it really sounds like that was such a great breakthrough for you when you reconnected as songwriters again. What what was

that experience like for you? Slipping back into those those roles together kind of nose and those with guitars. What was that experience like for you? Was it easy to get back to that place? Yeah, I mean it was easy. I think, you know it was the comfort level was fine, and sitting down with two acoustics. We hadn't done that since the hurting, and so it was us literally going

back to our roots. UM and I think you know, Roland especially felt something was going to come from that and and it did, you know, Um and Roland went away and started working on that song. He it was during just after that the writing session lockdown happened. So Roland went back to England. Um, and and then he

couldn't get back to America. So then we started just sending things back and forth to each other via email, and Roland basically finished a lot of the song when he was back in England, the sort of writing aspect of what we had started. And he eventually got back to America when they let him back in the country at the end of August, and we went back into

the studio in September. We were done by Christmas. So when you know what, when you know what you're doing, process becomes easier, and I think left to our own devices, and when we're both on the same page and we both know what we want and that happens to be the same thing, um, it becomes an easy process. It's when we're fighting and looking for something that the process is harder, when we don't quite know where we're going.

I can't think of a better opener to me, especially with the line I've just got one more song to sing, one more story to tell. It's hard not to take that as autobiographical, knowing knowing your your background and your history. Yeah, and I think so taking a way back to your your previous album two thousand four is everybody loves a happy ending. Did you have any notion that you were going to carry on making records together or was that, like the title, kind of meant to be a nice

way to to wrap things up? When did you when I guess, did this process of wanting to make a new record start for you? Well? Yeah, I mean, as you said, with a happy ending, Um, it was. It seemed like a good way to finish, literally a happy ending of Kurt and I getting back together after a nine year hiatus. Um. And it was a fun record to make. It was. I relocated my family to Los Angeles.

All of a sudden, we were waking up to a blue sky doing the school run under this with in this beautiful weather, drop the kids off down onto the tennis court, back into the shower, then down to the recording studio to to do. Work on this album was fun. We had a lot of fun working with chant Pettus, who is a great communicator between the two of us, a great modulator. Um. Yeah, we were very happy with the record. Um it was very different to anything I've

done in the previous decade. But yeah, I mean we didn't we we went act to promote it. We had quite a bit coverage, good radio play in Britain, we did some popular TV shows in the States. But we looked at the record sales the next day and we found that people were thinking, you know, people were like, oh, well, it's Tears for Fears. We love Tears for Fears. Let's go to the record store. So they would go to the record store and then they buy a copy of

the Greatest Hits record. So you're you're not you're not really shifting new product um. Following that, no, there was no plan to make another record. I sort of came back to England. The project cycle had finished and over the years, over about ye must have been about more than a decade, we just got better and better and better, and we started to get this great reputation playing live. And I mean, what is your process like for for

writing these songs. Is it more of a case of almost like no small thing where you're starting with acoustic instruments and working out chord sequences and melodic parts, or do you actually start with um, getting a bunch of scynth lines together and kind of working on almost like a sonic bed and use that as the bedrock for the track and build it up brick by brick how or is it a combination of both. It's a combination of both. Of course. Around seven years on this album,

we we've tried pretty much every meth writing available. We worked on about in the excess of thirty songs, so right at the end, um we could cheery pick. But it was you know, we say cometh the hour come of the songs because it was only in twenty twenty that we we stumbled across the heart and soul and guts of the record. Everything that came before it was just leading up to that moment and listening back to the songs we chose when we've sequenced them, it was

just an incredible experience. I mean, that's something I love about your records is that they do stand together as a whole and tell a story which I feel like it's a lost art. I mean that's a degree of care and a skill that I think that we've we've lost in recent years. Uh. In your words, what is the story of the tipping point? Is there a way to that? You know that that that you sum it up amongst yourselves, Well, I mean, so much had gone on in the world, um, and then you know our

personal lives over the previous bunch of years. You know, obviously our specifically site Roland's wife passing away during that time. Obviously that was a big bit, had a big effect on us, Roland in particular, and UM, So obviously there

are songs there about that. UM. But also on top of that, you know, we've gone through political upheaval worldwide, the rise of the right wing worldwide, four years of Donald Trump in America, the Me Too movement, the Black Lives Matter movement, the climate climate crisis, the start of the pandemic, So there was a lot of subject matter. UM, and now they're certainly we weren't, you know, stuck for

things to write about. And I think all of that is included in parts on the album, some more obvious than others. But but I feel the overall sense of the album is one of of of of hope, you know, that there's life at the end of the tunnel. UM. We didn't want it. Our intention was not to make this sort of modeling record that was kind of depressing. UM. You know, I think that especially tracks like Rivers of Mercy on the album, UM, which really does sort of

talk about redemption more than anything else. You know um and I think that the redemption and hope probably a two themes going through the album that that you know, our answers to all those other things that we talk about, you know, without getting into too much depth on every track,

I definitely feel positive by the time I finished it. Oh. I second, I mean, Rivers of Mercy is an amazing track, as I feel like it does such an amazing job of juxtaposing the the upheaval in the streets at the same time when we were kind of in an enforced imprisonment for lack of a better word, in our homes do to the pandemic, and I feel like that that strange kind of push pull that's going on internally and globally, really you feel that in that track, and especially coming

right after the track My Demons, which is I love the interplay between those two songs. Me My Demons is just such a monster of a song sonically and lyrically, I mean, My Demons don't get out much what a what a line, and then following with the comparative gentle sonic scope of Rivers of Mercy. I love the interplay between those two songs. In particular for me, that was really such a key moment in the album that that bend. Yeah, I think that's um, imprisonment is a good word. Yeah,

that's I think that's kind of what was happening. Yeah, it was. It was very strange. Um, that's for rivers of Moosey. We ended up writing songs of the band instead of writing songs with all these strangers and people play as he has been with us for you know, for a long time, and Sharton Pettus presented us with this backing track which was so calm, beautiful and serene and had a sense of longing within it, and as

it was so beautiful to put a liraing melody too. Yes, this was the time of Lockdown number one in Britain and it coincided with the most incredible Mediterranean weather here. So here I am in the West Country. Plenty big enough, plenty enough space, you know, three acres, tennis court, recording studio, all kinds of things, not much of a prison, or a rather an elegant prison, shall we say. And feeling this well, you know, this forced imprisonment, as you say,

that felt like freedom at the same time. And you went out to the supermarket and there are security guards but and then it was it was a very calm and peaceful time. But when you turn if you put on your computer, you turned on the news, you're looking at all this rage contrast between the peace you can feel inside and the information you're gleaning literally from thousands and thousands of miles away. That is the zeitgeist. It's not reflecting your inner state. So that's what that song's about.

And you're right, we come out of my demons. They don't get out that much, especially especially lockdown um. But it's just this. We start with the sounds of the of the riots and sirens, and then we we sink into this incredible feeling. It's almost like you are letting yourself go, and you're letting yourself fall back into the ocean,

into the supportive waters, into the waters of redemption. And it's almost suggesting that really the only way acts of rage violence, some of it of course is understandably justified, but the way forward is to find a place and this might sound a bit hippie dippy, a finer place of food gifts, because that's literally the only way you are going to cleanse yourself. I think that's well said.

I mean, there's there's It's been commented on throughout your work, throughout your history, but on this particular album, in particularly the appearance of of of ghosts and specters that you know, we we we sort of try to keep it bare. I mean, it's there on the tipping point and in a sense on my demons as well. Is making music a kind of exorcism for you? I think it's a way of acknowledging those ghosts, um acknowledging how important people

who are no longer here are. For instance, the title track, it's a love song, but it's a love song for someone you've lost, and that love it never goes. It's locked in with your memory of them, and that in itself is a beautiful thing, but yeah, it goes. It's a symbol we use, we have used all a lot in the past. I mean, thank you for sharing that

with me right now. And on on the songs. I mean, there are so many moments on this album, I mean the title track and please be happy among them that that do come from from this this very personal tragedy and and trauma and darkness, and and for that, I mean, as a person, I apologize, and I'm sending you my

Best Wishes? Was there a concern about putting these moments on the album, knowing that you would have to revisit them on stage and you know, doing press for this or what there had almost seemed almost disingenuous as artists to think, well, it's silly that this is what I'm dealing with right now, to pretend it's not happening. I write about something else is not who I am. How did you kind of strike that balance? Was it? Was it a concern for you to put these out there?

I mean, I don't think it's ever a concern. You know. Our concern initially really was that it didn't have the depth, but it didn't have the meaning, and it didn't have talk about subjects that were dear to us. You know. I think that the best use of music for us normally is to put these feelings into some sense of order,

you know. And you know I've said before that you know a lot of the time when you're in these moments of crisis or trying to work out what is going on in the world or things externally, um, your mind tends to go on this eternal kind of loop of doom, you know. And the way we tend to work it out, is to put it into so on

and somehow compartmentalize it, makes sense of it. And you know, a lot of the songs, I would say most of the songs in this album are an attempt by us to make some sense out of things that are going on.

So in that sense, it's quite cathartic and and therapeutic for us, Um And consequently you end up with an album that has far more depth and far more meaning to you personally, and I think to an audience, because I'm sure a lot of people who listen to our music are going through the same things and have the same emotions. And you know, especially with you know, the loss of someone in the sense of as you mentioned, tipping point and please be happy the loss of Caroline Um.

You know, you're looking at the TV and you see images and hospitals, you know, during the pandemic where people all across the world are losing people. So in that sense, it becomes more of a global thing than a person. It's it's interesting to view this record against your your first the hurting. I see them as as linked in a certain way, almost as uh, you know, inverses or mirrored image images of each other or something like that. At least I see them certain similarities there. There are

definitely similarities. I think the difference is that the hurting was you know, they're both a little angst written, but on this album, I think we're making sense of what's going on, whereas I'm there, I think we're more railing against what is going on. We're angry at what's going on. And this one comes from a or at least leaves you with a far calmer feeling and a sense that

you know will work it out at some point. It's just interesting for me to think of how you started out pre Tears for Fears in the group you were in, and then even as teens playing you know, Bloister Call and led Zeppelin and original songs that were done in

that similar style. Was there a lightbulb moment for you in terms of realizing that you could that would lead you towards new kinds of songs that you could write that would help you, uh process emotions, I guess in a way and use music almost like as a as a tool as opposed to you know, kind of these more I don't want to say, you know, rock centric, but you know something with maybe a little more depth was there, whether people were there, either other artists or

people like Arthur Yanoff that, Um, it's kind of lead you into realizing that music could have this whole other layer inside the electronic music. So all of a sudden, the two became a viable proposition because of the gene, because of the tape machine, and we quickly adopted this style and found we were very good at it. And what was great is we could we could completely as your ring and express the emotions of for the first time,

which we weren't really doing any before that writing personal songs. Um, you know about what was going on inside us. But it was the combination of that with these crazy electronic arrangements that made the whole thing something something very special. And it was our emotional honesty of early tears for Fears that kind of separated us from a lot of the what we would call utopian synthesizer groups like Human League. Um synthesizer groups could who would only play a keyboard

with one finger. It was a kind of little bit punk we were. We were actually guitarists, and so we were kind of approaching It would also be in the orchestra at school, had been in the choir, and we

were approaching the arrangements in a completely different way. Yeah, man, I think also that combined with you know, at the time when we left graduate obviously you know, we we had decided that we wanted, you know, songs to have more meaning, We wanted to talk about personal emotions, personal trauma. But also we around that time there were albums by Peter Gabral's Third of one I would side, um Talking Heads remain in like David Bowie Scary Monsters, that really

took production to a different level. So not only were we deciding to write songs that had more far more meaning and more and more personal meaning lyrically, but we were getting into recording. The band we were with before really had no interest in recording. I mean they we were literally when in the studio and played live and recorded it and that was that. Um, you might as well just stuck a mic up in the middle of

the room of the room. But we actually became interested in production and how these albums sounded so big, How was that possible? Um, So we actually got far more interested in studio work, which the other people in the band that we were in at the time, had no interesting studio work. I'm curious about your your home setups now,

I mean rolling in particular. I had fantasies of you having the Santa's Grotto of you know, vintage since d X sevens and Profit fives and Lynn drums, and then I think I've read interview recently that apparently this is not the case anymore. But what are they? What are your your home setups? Like, yeah, I had this, I had this life laundry back in about to fans and seven.

Um My, when I went through l A to do happy Ending, my studio, which was full of electronics was left to go sort of MAULDI for about a couple of years, and I came back and nothing really was working. So yes, at one point I kind of virtually had the history of the electronic keyboard. And then when my wife and I, my late wife designed did that we were going to turn the recording studio into a guest accommodation. The builders came in and they literally stood me there.

They pulled out keyboard by keyboard and said you want to keep it? You want to keep it? Uh no, and don't want to get working. So I gave away or I sold at times, you know, all kinds of things from PPG way to point to two profit fives to rolland Jupiter eights to all kinds of rack communts that I've used for decades, and now I've got them

all all on a laptop. There's more power in a laptop nowadays than the entire SSL studio that I had with a computer that was taller than me, you know, not that I'm very tall, but it was still still sizable. I just have Indiana Jones voice in my head saying it belongs in a museum. But I guess if I guess, it makes sense too. I mean that, do you um, is there anything that you miss about, you know, recording to tape and sort of the more hands on analog

recording experience. Analog tends to be warmer more than anything else, you know. I mean, this is why I think that for us it was I mean, you know the reason, I mean, we would love to have released this album last year, but the prime reason it wasn't was because

we had to wait for vinyl. You know, trying to get vinyl pressed is pretty difficult these days, and and the vinyl issue of the record was very important to us, so, um, yeah, I mean that there's a certain warmth to analog recordings that you miss, but there is a convenience to digital recording that makes life a little bit easier when you're in the studio. You haven't you don't have to be so micro focused on every tiny little mistake because you

can easily correct them. There. You know, you're not splicing tape anymore. You have the razor blade. And yeah, getting back it's a little bit of what you were saying earlier about um, your lyrical themes. I mean, you were so instrumental in helping tape the conversation around mental health into popular mu usic and and normalizing it and paving

the way for so many artists. I mean, one that comes to mind off the bat is the is the rapper Logic who had a huge hit not too long ago that was titled after the number of the National Suicide Prevention hotline and and made a huge difference in I think they said that there was a spike in calls to that hotline, some exponential number as soon as that that song was released, And I think a lot of that, you know, starting that conversation and popular music

can be drawn right to you. I mean, how do you feel, uh, you know, the shift going from something like suffer the children to today and being being a part of that change in conversation and normalizing that, well, I still think it's it's still a difficult area. There's no doubt on it. It's still I mean, it's not as to do. In fact, yesterday I did a whole

our podcasts purely about mental health, not bad music. If you can give someone a sense that they're not alone in their states, in their desperation, then you know, that's the good things. The least you can do. Music in that sense of plays an enormous part. I mean I remember some of the you know, some of the letters we got from from people after the hurting, and they were heartbreaking. Yeah, I mean we still get people stopping us now saying you know that the hurting helped me

through my college years, which is incredibly gratifying. Um, you know, it means that you've done something that had some depth and some use. But I think you know the word you use, which is, you know, something that's used a lot when you're bringing up children as well, and if you talk to psychologists, is normalizing it that's the thing you know there and we still do it as as adults where we think, you know, something is completely abnormal when there are you know, thous if not millions of

people going through the same thing. Um, but the first thing you're you know, you do as a parent when your child has anxiety or any issues is too normally normalize those issues, to let them know it's not abnormal. And that's their safety net, you know, is the that that knowing that what they're feeling is not abnormal. So then and it doesn't become then a panic and it doesn't get out of control. So um yeah, I mean I think, you know, treating ourselves like we treat our

children would become would be useful at times. Absolutely. I think that's a beautiful answer. And in a wonderful note to end on, Kurt Rowland, thank you so much for your music and your time today. It's meant the world to me for so many years. It's such an honor to talk to you. Thank you so much. You're very welcome. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Inside the Studio, a production of I Heart Radio. For more episodes of

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