Katy Perry

girl named Daisy Dove. In fact, she was so very much pregnant when we spoke that I was gonna say she might have had the baby by the time I finished this sentence, except then she actually did, and I had to go back and re record this. And now I've heard the pregnancy has been pretty easy, but in later days it's been a little harder. What's What's What's up? Katie Perry trains coming into the station, and no, I mean only a couple of days. I'm like, I have

to stop and lay down. I just gotta stop. Okay, Okay, I don't want to get to biological but I think technically the train is leaving the station. It's coming into the station, though it depends on if like the canal as the station. This is taking a strange turn, and I'd like to keep going down this path. My understanding, and I'm not a parent, is that the train enters the station and nine months later it leaves. But wow, I guess I need to study some biology. So a

couple of things about Katie Perry. Her given name is Katherine Elizabeth Hudson. Perry is her mother's maiden name. She grew up the middle child of two Pentecostal pastor parents in Santa Barbara, California, and she wasn't allowed to do some normal kids stuff like eat lucky charms. I don't know, maybe because lepre cons are pagan. Also, she couldn't watch the Smurfs, who I guess are also pagan, although now

I really want some smurfberries or marshmallow green clovers. Anyway, despite her strict religious upbringing, her right maybe because of it,

Catherine would grow up into Katie. She started out as a more rock leaning Atlantis Morris set sort of singer songwriter, but she developed herself into a pop sensation who played around with vintage Hollywood pin up girl and burlesque imagery, and she sang about kissing girls or having love affairs that made you perpetually feel like a teenager checking into a motel for the first time, or she sang about wanting to see your peacock or whatever it is you're

hiding underneath. She also eventually became the voice of Smurfet into Smurfs Movies in two thousand eleven, and I assume at this point she's allowed to eat all the lucky charms that she wants. Perry's first album, One of the Boys, arrived in June of two thousand and eight, which was a real changing of the guard moment in popular music. Lady Gaga released her debut a few months later in October, and in November, Taylor Swift's second album, Fearless, debuted at

number one on the Billboard two hundred. Also, you may have heard of a British singer who released her debut album in January of two thousand and eight. She's named a Dell. All of these women would have boundary reshaping, record setting success. The offsided stat about Katie Perry is that her second release Teenage Dream in would become only the second album in history after Michael Jackson's Bad to produce five number one singles California Girls, Teenage Dream, Firework Et,

and Last Friday Night. There's a sixth single, the One That Got Away, and it missed it by that much, peaking at number three, but then in a deluxe edition of the album added more tracks, including Part of Me, which also went to number one and which, like the other songs I mentioned, sold more than two million digital downloads in the US, which gave her another record for

the most multi platinum singles for one album. It's a total of eight tracks selling more than two million apiece, which is at least sixteen million song downloads, which is a whole hell of a lot. And that kind of success, I mean, it's a cliche, but it's hard to follow. People are always measuring you against the mountain that you climbed and not necessarily paying attention to what you're actually

accomplishing or giving them. I mean, her next album, Prison had a mirror two number one singles Roar and dark Horse, but it was the album after that where trouble really began for her. So the first single from that album Witness in twenty seventeen was called Chain to the Rhythm, and it was trying to make some sense of let's call it a post truth America where people are drowning in social media distortions, and this is a song we talked about how we're all living in our own bubble bubble,

not seeing the trouble trouble. And even as someone who thinks that pop songs can be really serious things, I found it strange that Chained to the Rhythm talked about how our favorite songs themselves are a distraction that keep us stumbling around like zombies. I mean, this was like a critique of pop music that was calling from inside

the house, and I found it pretty fascinating. It did go to number one, after all, but let's just say that the trying to make sense of stuff, Katy Perry was not really the Katy Perry that people seem to want.

The album got some pretty terrible reviews. A lot of critics reacted like they just had enough of her, and as she told me, she had tough times coping with things after the release of Witness, certainly the split she went through with Orlando Bloom in seventeen didn't help any and Smile is an album all about this, about coping

with it and getting over it, dealing with it. As you can tell from the first track, which is called never Really Over, which her relationship with Orlando Bloom was not as it turned out, the whole idea of Smile is Katie getting her smile back. But the interesting thing is that she doesn't leave out the work or the

tears it took to do it. Katie told me all about the intensive, week long therapy process that she went through at a point when, as she put it, she didn't feel confident she would live to see the next year. And she talked about learning to lean less on the validation of the outside world. She talked about in a lot of ways, becoming a more whole person. Here's what else she had to say. Heyy Perry, welcome to inside the studio. Hello Joe, how are you? Isn't that a

loaded question? Is a loaded question? Yes it is, you've been You've been quarantining for two This is unique. Yes, I think it's probably more it's a loaded question for everyone. But um, I definitely say as I'm about to give birth to two different things, both an actual physical human being and a record that I have been doing all of my promotion in you know, quarantine, and this time it's an interesting time, sure, and and and you know a lot of women and more power to them work

into their third trimester. I really hope we get this interview done before your water breaks. Yeah, well I'm to my third trimester. I'm in my fourth trimester. I'm just kidding, No, I really you know, I think you are the last one of the last people I get to speak with before my world changes. So originally this album was at one point it was going to arrive in June and then in mid August, and it's it's been pushed back a little bit. But but also you must have discussed

releasing it next year. Why why did you stick with this year? What was the thinking behind that? Yeah, I mean this year is a year of pivoting and going with the flow for sure, um And anyone that like makes hard plans besides the fact that possibly you will have a child for me, um is you know, is maybe setting themselves up for a surprise. Uh So I wanted to put the record out in June, obviously, I wanted to give myself a little bit more space and not you know, go head to head with who's coming

for who's the headliner, who's the opener? Is it the child?

Is that the baby? What? Um? But I did know that I was so excited about sharing this record that actually got me to this place um of life, of fullness of life, UM, that I didn't want to push it to twenty one because I just know my energy is about to shift UM and my world is about to expand in in such an incredible way that, like I wrote, I started kind of casually writing this record in two thousand and seventeen, and it's really the sound shot. I call it like the screen shot, but the sound

shot of the past three years. And I know my next couple of years are going to be so full and I will have so much to say, so let's just onto the next. Plus it's a record full of you know, hopefulness and resilience and about coming out of the darkness. So I think if anyone is going through that now, it could be it could be something for them. I mean, I think in a way, we're all going

through that now, to one its stand or another. It's it's it's hard to not be in the darkness at this particular time in human history, given given the pandemic. But you talk about coming out of the darkness. There there's a note in the packaging for Smile and it's it's actually signed Katherine, not Katie, and you you say, many of these songs were written coming out of one of my own darkest times, finding and fighting for the

light at the end of the tunnel. And so I want to talk about Smile, you finding your smile again. But let's start with the dark times, because that's kind of where the album begins, isn't it. The first few tracks on the record. Yeah, let's let's travel back to us. So I guess travel back a few years to or

so oren. But but that's kind of where the album begins with never really over cry about it later to realize these are these are the darker times, right, Well, you know, actually you're you're you're making a very observant note. The sequence does tell a many story, um, and it does start out with kind of the letting go, the true letting go or or making a decision to let go of this loop of love that I was in, you know, the unhealthy relationships and going like I am

not going to fall back into that loop. I am going to choose a different path, even though it's difficult. Um. But the you know, there was it was a few things in two thousand and seventeen. It was, um just a shift in my own uh excitement and getting high on my own supply with putting out music. It just didn't really, it didn't. It didn't slap like it used

to UM. And I right before I put out the record, I actually broke up with my now baby daddy because I was just like, you know, I got to a tipping point and I thought I was going to lean on the validation of the outside world to get me through you know, the bummer time of breaking up with someone. But then, you know, then I wasn't getting fed from the outside world like I was used to. So everything

started falling apart. Basically, the foundation started cracking. And I didn't realize that I put so much um uh self worth and validation and everyone else's hands, and when they don't give it back to you, it's a huge void. Um. So we're talking about when when Witness came out, that's that's the moment when we're it's you know, as a Katy Perry fan, as somebody who, hey, that's not my favorite Katie Perry record, but I like a lot of

songs on it. It's a Katie Perry record. But the world seemed to say, like, you know what, maybe we've had enough, maybe we want to take a break. Am I am I exaggerating? No, you are not at all. You are so right. And I felt that, and I am a you know, I'm a master of feelings. That's my job is to um observe and feel the feelings and you know, put them into little definitions and ideas and songs. I take feelings and I create worlds. So I was feeling that rejection pretty heavily. Um and you

know I did. I did what a lot of artists do at some point in their careers, is I took a leap because I wanted to experiment. I wanted to break them kind of box that I had created for myself of being maybe a little too Sachard or too pop. I wanted to really sonically investigate the dimensions out there. And I did. And so Witness was really my kind of like a little bit, a little bit not too much. It wasn't like I was like going cuckoo for cocoa puffs,

you know, experimentally. Um. But I was definitely trying on new things and I loved it. Um. I was just trying to like kind of shake an old version of myself and evolve and I didn't really know how to do it, but this was my way of doing it artistically. Um. And so yeah, it was um. It was a It was a shift, and it wasn't like the biggest shift, like I still had a number one record, I still

had success with change of the rhythm. Bona petite is a huge you know, there's you know, if you look at it from a numbers world or a business world, it's not like as much as maybe I am I I made it out to be, or as much as I felt it. But remember I was only on a roller coaster going up for ten years, like hot hot, hot, hot fire, and any one small little shift was was like it was like the first time, you know, you feel an earthquake, You're like, what the hell is that?

I'm getting my coffee? Okay, all right, I'm glad, I'm is it decalf Katie? Are you allowed to have caffeinated coffee? I am? Thank you for your concern and also she is cooked. Okay. She literally has a hand coming out right now waving to you. I'm good. You were saying, oh, you know, like, I'm not going to compare myself to Bob Dylan, but when Bob Dylan did his electric record, people were like boom, or when what's his name did his eighties record? Um, I'm totally pregnancy brain. That's why

I grabbed my coffee. It's totally fine. But you know what, there are moments where people don't even have to try different things to get negative feedback. Like I think back to being a Madonna fan, Erotica comes out from from my perspective, her most consistent record from beginning to end, the world was like, yeah, I don't want this, We

don't want this right now? Or Lady Gaga with art pop. The world suddenly seemed to discover all at once that she's kind of pretentious, and I was like, didn't we know that from the start, and that one of the reasons we enjoy her? Yeah, Like didn't we didn't? We love the the attitude, right wow, I love that, you know what it's and and it makes me feel like I'm you know, I'm on the right path, and it's really about peaks and valleys and writing it. Especially when

I hear about you know, someone like yourself. You're a couple of years older than I am, but you've been a music fan and you saw Erotica, You've seen Madonna go through all those evolutions, and she's someone I really look up to for a couple of pillars. She has fought against agism, she has fought against sexism, she has fought against stereotypes. Like everyone wanted to put her in a box and she has broken. She's blown that box

up every single time. And like whatever you think about her now, great, but like she laid the foundation, meaning like you know, she's still evolving and still changing. And I went and saw her last show, and if I'm doing that at her age, I would be so lucky. Like yeah, I don't. I don't think I will be uh moving aerobically for that long a period. Uh that's the minutes of an exercise class, is what I can

get through. Not an entire Madonna production. I mean it was, and it was really it was like it was innovative and interesting and it wasn't phoned in. But like thinking back, you know what you know of course, like I hear about um just you know, like people talking about there's always something shiny and new every year, right, and it's different when you be when you're not the shiny new thing,

and it does something to your psychology. But it's it's it's actually it's like a good test of your character and a good test of who you are as an artist and what you're made of. And I just think back, like some of my favorite albums that I was aware of because I was, you know, a little bit younger, but Ray of Light, right after she had her baby, you know, changed my life. Confessions on a dance floor. She's in her forties, I think, you know, like, so I look at that, I go, wow, I'm excited for

the future. Yeah. But but you were also talking about seeking validation from outside and and that moment when Witness came out was a moment. You may have had the numbers, you may have had the hits, but it was a moment where what was coming back. And I don't know how much you read criticism, but what was coming back would be a little mean, a little pointed. And I don't know how active you are on social media. Many of us follow you. I don't know how much you

follow the rest of us. But did that stuff coming back, did it get you down? Yeah? I mean I don't have Google alerts on myself. Um, and I do wish that, like, you know, I could be just you know, you just put it out in the world and go there. It is goodbye. And I do know I like and I maybe say it out loud because I'm still telling myself I have no control once I put it out, it is up to the consumer. It is up to the

audience to do with it as they please. This is just my story, this is my experience, this is my touchdone. It's actually a real touchdone of a record. For me, smile is to remind myself that I walked through the hell and I survived it. But when Witness came out, or when any record comes out, you are more aware because just there's so much going on and so you

will see stuff and you will hear stuff. But it was definitely like every artist goes through a bit of a leveling period, and it was definitely the leveling period. And I really believe that, you know, more than half of the reason I'm here is because of people, and they do have the power and they put me on the pedestal, and they, you know, every once in a while need to remind whoever they put on the pedestal that they put them there and smile. You talk about

being served a piece of humble pie. Rejection can be God's protection. That's a lyric that popped out at me. Daisy's got um. It seems like a reference to this is well, took those sticks and stones showed them I could build a house. Right, I mean, this is this is you're you're you're talking about turning around the negativity

into something useful for yourself. Well, I mean this might stunt a little bit, like you know, spiritual hippie dippy, but my brokenness became my wholeness because it was like, you know, I'm a scorpio. So I definitely resonate with the continual story of the phoenix rising from the ashes or the flower growing through the concrete. Like Resilient says on the record, Um, I I learned my best lessons from hitting the bottom sometimes or falling flat on my face.

But um, yeah, I think when I say rejection is God protect God's protection or um took those six and stones and showed him I could build a house. I I built a new foundation and a version of me, not a version of me. I nurtured myself to be a multidimensional human rather than just a single minded you know, um one goal, which is to become the best pop star ever and ring that bell and have the biggest success tour, you know, number one, blah blah blah. Now

like now I know how to be still. Now I know that, Like I'm going to have a baby and be a mother. Now I know how to say no, and now I know how to have like pause. I I was on a rocket ship and holding on for dear life and kind of foaming at the mouth, and it just feels a lot more grounded and expansive because I kind of got out of that loop of one single idea of one goal, you know. Yeah, I mean I think I'll look back and be like thanks God

for otherwise. I feel like, you know, you read these stories sometimes about your favorite entertainers not having the best ending, and I want to be a grandma. Okay, all right, that's putting a little pressure on the baby that hasn't been born yet. But we've we've she's she's got some time to catch up to your desire for grandchildren. What I'm saying, So let's talk about how some of this building the multidimensional Katie or Catherine happens. Um. You know, Uh,

you talked a little bit. I think it was about this, and I was interested by this, so I looked it up. This intensive therapy project that the Hoffman Process, um and and I've read a little about it. You said it was a reset for you. I know it was started in the sixties by guy named Bob Hoffman. That it's a week long therapy retreat and it's centered around letting go of negative behaviors. What can you tell me about It's like ten years of therapy in one week. It's

like concentrated juice. I'm done for that. Uh not because I want to take a shortcut, because I just like, you know, I don't want to fight my demons for ten years. UM. So you know, it's a There's a lot of different things out there, but this process definitely put me on a new path. And actually my friends had gone before me, Orlando had gone before me. Um and I ended up going because I was like, Wow, I don't really have any more options. I either decide to change myself or I may not live to see

the next year. Um, and so I did it. And it's basically it's one of the main things that you do is you rewire the way you think about yourself.

Which I don't know about you, but for me, I have this like CNN News ticker of negat ativity that was constantly going through my mind, you know, and just like saying, you're fat, you're ugly, ugly, you're a loser, you're you just got lucky, you're just you know, you're not really invited, You'll never be enough, you'll never be enough, You'll never be enough, blah blah blah blah blah blah.

And that was really loud, and um. There there's a process there by way of you know, like different like guided visualizations, different psychological exercise exercises, silence that you really quiet it and it and and it still pops up, you know, like the devil doesn't sleep. I always say that, like, and the devil works harder. It's those are two sayings I think that are hundreds of years old and still ring true. Like, you know, everything in life is two things.

It's a yen a yang. You may not believe in the devil, but there is a positive and a negative, and you really have to do the work to stay on the positive path. So yeah, I went there and it changed my life and I've so far been able to um, you know send I would say thirty forty different people that are close to me, and it's changed their lives and I could not recommend it more. And it's the hardest thing you'll ever do. But it's a rebirth, um, and it's you know, rebirths are not neat and tidy,

They're messy and bloody. Says the expectant mother. Uh, you were an assistant dullah for your sister for her home birth. Do I have this right? You've you've been through the birthing process for his secondhand as it were. Yeah, I mean I wasn't. I wouldn't label myself as a duela, but um, I was there and I helped, and I saw and I experienced and I've seen the miracle of child birth and you know, so I M I haven't felt it, but I won't won't be surprised by the

by the site and the idea of it. Um. I'm happy to have that, you know, and not just have only YouTube video references to go by. So in talking about the happening process, you said two things I want to circle back on because there you were saying a lot there um and And the first is you said you went there and you felt like you had to go there, or you weren't sure you were going to see the next year or the next day. My voice, those voices were so loud, so and stop me if

I'm getting too personal. Does that mean you were thinking I'm going to check out, I'm I'm I'm done, I'm withdrawing from life, or I'm ending my life or what? What? What? What were those voices saying? Yeah, I mean it was just saying that like, oh, you know, it's getting too hard to deal with the weight of the world old or you know, I don't know how other people think when they have these thoughts, if they ever have these thoughts, and not a lot of people have them. Some people do.

Some people are listening right now and bobbing their hand and go, yep, I know exactly what she's talking about. UM. But you know, sometimes it's like, oh, I'll have the last word. UM, you know I had I just had a friend of a friend, unfortunately UM pass away by taking her own life. And it was one of those things that we I'm not very close to her, but um and God rest her soul, but it was one

of those things where she was suffering. And some people suffer so much and it's so hard, and they don't know where to turn, and they don't have the tools, and they're like almost just kind of stuck in that mindset. They just have no idea how to think outside of that mindset. And for me, I was there. I know, I know, I know exactly that feeling. I know, like anyone could you know, someone could be like, well just think on the bright side, and you're like, fuck off.

You're like you don't understand where I'm at right now mentally, like I can't get out of bed or what have you. But um, it's the real deal, and um, you know, it doesn't discriminate, like depression and anxiety and all those things. It doesn't matter how much you have or how much you don't have. Sometimes you see the person that doesn't have anything and they're the happiest person in the world. You're like, what I mean, this is not what we've

been sold. You know, I really want to express my admiration and appreciation for you being so open about this, and and I also want to emphasize that it's not the first time you've been vulnerable in this way. When I was preparing to do this interview, I went back I watched the part of Me film UM and I aw you at one of your lowest moments and thought,

this is a brave choice to show yourself. You're you're in tears, you're you're dealing with the fallout of your first marriage, you're deciding whether or not to get on stage, and this is your movie. That was your choice to show this in this movie. And I thought, this is kind of amazing. Uh, this is this is brave. Is either like show the real and feel like connected and or or show some kind of cookie cutter propaganda like

we all do on Instagram. Like what if we had an alt version of ourselves on Instagram where you just took photos of yourself when you're in the worst, like when you're crying, when you're upset, when you're stressed out, that would be that would be a real serve, right, I mean, we only take photos of ourselves when we're trying to project perfectionism. And it's like tail as old as time you see sometimes people have like the best Instagram and then you meet them in real life and

you're like, oh my god, you're not the same person. Yeah, I've seen that movie. We put up vacation pictures. We don't put up our shitty day at work pictures. Yeah. I mean, like Joe, even if you just like took a photo of yourself off the shitty day at work and you just captioned it shitty day at work with like no like other angle, it would just be so funny because it's so real, you know. It's like, yeah, most seven out of ten days are kind of like this. Yeah,

they not seven, maybe five maybe, I don't know. That's that's that's that's a pretty good average. Actually, out of ten in the pandemic, maybe three to five in outside of it. Okay, alright, alright, so, um, once we get past the darkness and we get back into the Daisies resilient not the end of the world, smile this moment in the album where you're you're you're regaining some of that power, some of that resilience, some of that smile talk to me about about first, let's talk about that

point in your life. How did you reclaim that for yourself and then let's talk about the music. Yeah, well, I literally just had to kind of like push myself at my body and put one foot in front of the other, and like it's like when you when you for me, I don't love exercising, but I just we all just know that it's it feels so great afterwards, and then you tell yourself afterwards, You're like why don't

I do this every day? You know? But putting on the sports where it's like come on, you know, I mean, like why, And so that's kind of what it was. It was like moving with cement feet, but I could still move little by little and the steps got bigger, and um, you know, there were people that were helping me obviously, Like Orlando never deserted me through this time.

He was always there. Definitely had boundaries, and but it was always there kind of as a pillar and leading by example, and he was conscious of where I was. So he was there for me with you know, with with some boundaries, which was great. And so you know, it was good to have some friends and the my my team that I've had with me for over fifteen years. They were just like pushing me in the right direction. They helped me create the space to you know, do

things like the Hoffman process. Um. But you know, I do have this higher self inside of me just like everyone else does, Like this higher consciousness, this better self inside of me that sometimes just takes over and goes all right, sweetie, looks like you can't put your pants on one leg at a time anymore. I'm gonna take over and I'm dragging you to words the end of the tunnel. You know, there's like it's almost a bit magical in that way, like I truly believe I'm a

soul wearing a costume or a meat sack. Um, And sometimes my soul is the one that's like, no, sweetie, we're gonna do it now on my terms. So a little a little help from the ovens of sorts, okay, okay, you know, and cry about it later. Teary eyes, those are those are sort of tears on the dance floor, like let's let's have a little fun. There's there's some bad times, there's some tragedy, but let's have a little fun. Was was that part of it for you too? Were you? Yeah?

There's I mean there's some necessary escapism, but you know, you can't escape too much then, because then you find yourself at that um. You know, that that um, that Donkey Donkey, Disneyland and Pinocchio, where like you go there, it's fun, you're gambling your drink in, you're having cigars, you're with your friends, and then you turn into an ass. So you have to get out before you turn into an ass. And it's a fine line, and sometimes it creeps up on you. You know, it's like right around

there and you're like, oh crap. I always referenced that time in Pinocchio because it's so true. It's like, have a little fun, but straddle the line, guys um, and so cry about it later. Interior Eyes is definitely about, you know, letting the letting go. It's the letting go of the loop of love that I was in, you know. It's the letting go of idealism. Is the letting go of the idea I could change someone. You know, it's the letting go of my twenties. It's the letting go

of fantasy. It's the letting go of you know, a lot of different things. So I think there's like it's like I'm gonna keep moving, but I'm I may be crying. But that's okay, all right, here we go. Oh, we're just gonna let go and we're gonna keep moving. That's a lot to uh, that's a lot to let go. That's a lot of ground to cover in just two songs, Katie, Uh, well there's there. So there's a lot of other vibes.

That's true. That's true. Smile and Daisies or or both songs about getting getting some strength back, taking some strength back, letting your higher self, higher better self, take the wheel as it were. Um, these are songs. We've been in this territory before with your records. You know, you've given us firework and roar and and so we're smiling Daisies. Are these more personal songs this time? Or the Cousins? Yeah,

they're more t m I cousins, Well not Daisies. But Smile, you know, is definitely kind of a real calendar journey of like what I went through, Like it's very it's very this is this is exactly how I would explain it if it wasn't in a song, right, But Daisy is a little bit you know, less personal maybe and for everyone to kind of find themselves in it as well, because I'm not the first person to have a dream bigger than what everyone else says I should be dreaming.

You know, I'm not the first one to dream big and then try and go for it um and be laughed at all along the way. Um. So I think there's a lot of people that really resonate and relate to that that narrative. Like I said, I seem to really embody my scorpio archetype. I know jack shit about astrology, so you can tell me anything you want about that scorpio archetype and I'll agree with it. All I know is that the stars have been here for a long time before me, and we'll be there way after me,

so they must hold some significant step. Sure, this is something we may need to consult Neil to grasp Tyson for. But yes, no, I think that there's there's probably some significance in in the Stars. It's funny you mentioned Smile as a almost like a timeline, and it's got that Lionel Richie name check in it. How much was American idol?

I don't know a kind of safe place for you or replaced it to get back some some sense of strength and self because it's a different experience to do that show than to go out on the road touring. Is it a little healthier. Yeah, there's balance and that you're not, you know, flying from Europe to Australia twice a week, you know, I mean really it's it takes its toll sometimes when your body feels upside down. Um,

the physical aspect of of touring is really intense. And every time I'm finishing a tour, I get a tattoo to kind of commemorate the intensity. And we all get a tattoo. It's like a bloodshed moment. You mean, the whole crew, everybody ever. Yeah, it's like I bring a tattoo artist and it's like a bloodshed bonding moment. It's like, Wow, we lived to tell and we're proud of it, you know, and now we'll now we'll forever have kind of this

signature on ourselves that says that tells a story. But yeah, it was a moment for me to Also I've always wanted to do something like this American idol or you know, something that involved music and talent and competition. But I've always just been going hunter and fifty miles per hour. And also I took it as an opportunity for the American public to have better understanding of me as a person and not just as what they you know, saw

what what I what? What what? Either I bite size, hand fed or the media decided that they we're going to make me out to be because the media can make anyone out to be any type of character. Um. And if you don't tell your story, someone's gonna tell it for you, honey. And so I found it to be uh, not only it was like three pronged. Of course, it was a way for me to have balance at home. It was a way for me to really kind of um, have a bigger better relationship with with the public personally,

personality wise. And it truly was a show that was actually changing lives. And I'm about that, you know, I'm about people. I'm about heart, some about wholeness and happiness, and like this show every season has a lottery ticket for someone out there who's life will be changed and maybe even in the top five or top ten, their life will be changed and their fit and that means their family's life will be changed. That means you know,

it's a ripple trickle down effect. Um. And so I love this show more than any of the shows, because you can name ten different successful artists and no other show you can, you know, even even if it shares this a little bit of the same format. And that's that's as trash talking as I'll be. Okay, While the gauntlet is thrown down, the American Idol Voice feud continues. It's not a feud. I'm not trying to make it out to be one. We don't have to complain about anything.

I know you've you know, you've been very public about saying that you view the uh mending of fen is between you and Taylor Swift is a lesson for young women out there. Uh you know, I know you're not going to talk trash. You can only lead by example, huh. Okay, and sometimes you know, it's important to do that for the greater good. Okay, it's important to do it for you as well, right, I mean for the on the

personal level, of course, of course that's important. But you know, you think about if you can, if you can zoom out, you think about you know, all of it. I mean, I guess we are people that some young people look up to, and um, you know, I've never had a

problem with that in the beginning. I remember it was so interesting into it was all about purity rings and the Jonas brothers had purity rings and everybody wasn't having sex before marriage, and you know there's this like real like traditionalism, and you know there there is all of the questions that were being asked of me and my two and three years is about being a role model. And it was kind of like I didn't I didn't

want to. I didn't want to say yes, because, uh, does a being a role model mean I have to be perfect and I can never make a mistake. It felt like that's what the setup was, right because I knew I was just I knew I was going to make mistakes, especially from where I come from. You know, I was born in like a single frame of mind. And um, so so you mean that you you you came from a sort of evangelist Christian perspective where a certain kind of I mean, being a role model was

literally expected, right, I mean it's very clear. Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm I'm a pastor's daughter. So like I understood what it means, what it meant to sit in the front role and not fidget and like you know, and to be attentive and aware and blah blah blah,

take notes and like lead by example. But I was never that way, and um, I always I always knew I was just like well all a lot of my education started when I had the opportunity to travel like expansively, when I was twenty three, when things started all happening. So most of my peeling off of ignorance and lack of education has just happened under the spotlight, you know. That's that's why I don't always get it right, because I'm learning through the process. Certainly, I remember this time

when that first record came out. But it's so funny that that people are gonna come to you and ask you about being a role model, because coloring outside the lines was one of the great things about you at the start, that you you were in a cookie cutter pop star, that you you were you were different, right, I mean you you know, you had you had you had a sense of humor, You might curse, you might kiss a girl. We didn't know what was gonna happen.

Can you believe you know? I wrote a song about you know, bisexuality back in two thousand and eight, and it was so taboo wow. Um. I also like to remind people that this is the business of rock and roll. Pre Internet, everyone was like having sex with everyone and doing copious amounts of drugs. So where was I? Okay, all right, Joe, you remember the time well, as the old Grace Slick saying goes, if you can remember them, you weren't there, that's amazing. But I barely can't remember twenties.

So there we go. We had fun. Though. One last thing about the whole idea of the smile. Um, you know, the whole idea of smiling. It comes up in another song. Not the end of the world you're talking about. Take that frown, turn it upside down, right. Its flipping things around. There's a reference to the old song uh Nana Hey, kiss him goodbye, but you're saying, don't say goodbye. So it's really about flipping things around. And it's like duality again.

It's like it's to two choices. Like this free will thing that we have that people talk about. You have a choice to do this or a choice to do that. Every choice has an outcome. Um. Every you know, thought can be either negative or positive. Um. And you can either see an ending as a beginning or you can see an ending as a as a doom doom, doom doom moment. But I believe that everything is cyclical and that the ending is so close to the beginning, just like the hate is so close to the love you

can almost reach out and touch it. But you know, in what sense? Can the smile or is the smile sometimes a mask? You know, we see you on the cover of the album. You're made up as a clown. You're you're You're not You're the sad clown, maybe not the happy clown. Melancholy melancholy a more sophisticated word, I stand corrected, Well, it is. It is playing off of that kind of simple narrative, the narrative of the clown who lust its smile or a sense of playfulness. Um,

but I guess the I guess the album. The music actually is a lot more upbeat and you know, um energetic than the art is on the cover. I think maybe what I'm trying to say, or as I figured it out up until now, is that like through that

art is that I found my smile. But wow, I'm not gonna be ignorant to think that, like, you know, everything is hunky dorrier Peachie Keen jelly Bean for the rest of my life, like I will never not have problems, or like, for instance, if I could amend the saying what doesn't kill you makes you stronger too, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, but sometimes you lose a limb, you know, or sometimes you stay in bed for a while, then I would because it's not always as black and

white as what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. It's like, holy hell, that was intense. So I want to ask you about the last track on the record, What Makes a Woman, where you sing about feeling it your most beautiful, doing whatever the funk you want. Um So, when I first heard of this song, I thought about the acoustic album that you've threatened to make in the past. You know, you've talked about this a couple of times, right, and playing acoustic guitar is is one of the places where

things really started for you with music. Um So, talk to me a little bit about this song, which you've said is has a real particular importance to you. Yes, I mean many people that sequence the record or artists, they are always mindful of the first and the last song. The first song sets the town and that's what I wanted to do with this one with never really over.

It's familiar, you sing along, you're already in. You get a good feeling from it because of maybe the nostalgia of not COVID two thousand nine, right, a different time, right. And then it ends with what makes a woman? Because it's really the I guess it's um, the song that I really resonate with the most, even right now, even even though I I didn't write it when I had

a child in me. UM. But it is almost a trick question, um, because if you can answer what makes a woman, then maybe you are not a woman or you have yet to live your whole life as a woman. In that there's so much expansiveness. UM. I always and I have fought against this narrative that women are just

one thing or can do just one thing. And it's really interesting, you know, I do these interviews and sometimes I will get people that you can tell are still they still think in a certain type of way, and they go Also, once you know you have the baby, you're going to go away for a while and you know, be a mom, and that's it, and just why don't you just go away and I'm like, um, I'm sorry. You know, Beyonce has twins and another daughter and she's

you know, doing what she loves. And there's many people that are working moms and do what they love. And are you basically telling me to forfeit or that I have to choose or that I won't I wouldn't be What I hear is that, like, I wouldn't be enough if I was doing both. You know what I'm saying, I wouldn't be doing it right. I guess that's what I hear. And what I think is like, actually, I feel like we were given this incredible opportunity to create

life because we have more than enough. We have. Yeah, we are women, are you know, we get a little bit stereotyped that we're incredibly emotional figures. That's because we can create multiple humans with multiple sets of emotions. Like it's all in there, honey, we are born with those eggs.

We got it right. So it's also a song about the effortlessness that you know, we balance life with as women, and sometimes we decide to do it all in one day and go out in a pair of heels just to show off, like that we can't, you know, like There's a lot of layers and UM, it's just my it is my um constant way of you know, trying to um, I guess, fight for the right to be anything I want to be or try anything I want to try and be that chameleon that I know I

am and not be put in a box. You brought up this sort of the expectations of what happens next. Maybe you're gonna take a break, maybe you're But so let me ask you what what happens next? Katie? What? What? What? What? What? What's the future? Hold? Whatever I want? Honestly, I'll do it as it comes. If you know, if I I feel like I can balance beautifully, I will. If I feel like I can't, I won't. I will obviously, you know,

put my vulnerable young soon to be born child first. UM. And you know, I'm I don't think I'm going to have a plan necessarily. Planning is future. I just I think it's one of those moments where it's like just be present, sure, change some diapers and see what happens exactly all right, Katie Perry, thank you so much for being here. Thank you Joe, thanks for this. I appreciate you. Inside the Studio is a production of I heart Radio.

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