Japanese Breakfast's Michelle Zauner

Firstly because the intricate, dreamy soundscapes must be heard to be believed, but also, as a newly minted New York Times bestselling author, she's demonstrably a better writer than I am, and I don't want to embarrass myself. The album Jubilee is inextricably linked with her recent memoir Crying in h Mart. It's an arresting account of her days as a caregiver for her Korean mother during the end of her battle with cancer. This loss looms large over her first two albums,

but on Jubilee, she sings a different tune. In short, it's an album about joy. That's not to say it's an album about being happy, but it's something a little more nuanced and a little more ephemeral. It's the choice to move towards joy, to search for it, recognize it, and preserve it. Jubilee is less about overwhelming technicolor ecstasy and more about eking out pleasure in the every day.

Heard in context with her previous music and book, which is currently adapting into a feature film, these little victories resonate as major triumphs, and even out of context, Jubilee triumphs as a stunning piece of art. I'm so happy to welcome the singer, songwriter and guiding force of Japanese

Breakfast Michelle's honor. I hope you enjoy our conversation. In the last year, you've released two absolutely stunning pieces of work, the book Crying in h Martin and the album Jubilee, and I'm so struck by the juxtaposition of writing a book processing grief while making music about moving towards joy. Was it difficult to veer between those two, you know, extreme emotional landscapes, or was it a nice counterbalance? Um? I think that they just go so hand in hand.

Crying in h Mar was written before turning to this album Jubilee, and I think that in a way, writing Crying in H Mark made me finally feel like I had said everything I wanted to say about this, this really intense experience, this this life changing experience, and um, I felt really ready to begin a new chapter. And I think that writing Jubilee really felt like I was

starting a new in this in this way. And I think maybe there's a kind of like self mythologizing in in the process of making that record too, of just like, okay, this it's time for you to allow this new emotion into your life creatively and personally. It was really cool to see moments when the book and the album were in conversation with each other and there's a beautiful line and crying an h part. It felt like the world had divided into two different types of people, those who

felt pain and those who had yet to. And you sing similar words in posing in Bondage, and I thought that in many cases the book added a whole dude

dimension to the lyrics. Thank you for noticing that. Yeah, I think there's a lot of borrowed lines, you know, a lot of the times, I mean, there's just so much space in a book, and so I think that with music, you're looking for lines that really distill a certain type of emotion or thought, and it was fun to kind of, you know, that was the feeling that I had, and it exists on its own and song, but then to unpack that and what it looked like around it and when that thought came to me and

how I processed it was a whole new kind of freedom that I had in writing this book. And it was really fun to get to steal certain lines from other songs that I've written a long time ago and put them into the book because it was very much wow. I felt in that moment I already had this kind

of archive of that type of processing. Now, the pandemic delayed the release of Jubilee by a year, which meant Crying and h Mark came out within a few weeks of Jubilee, which I know wasn't ideal for you initially, but at least from a fan perspective, it really to me. It made the song seems so much more important to see where you come through, and that made the exuberance enjoy seem all the more triumphant. Are you happy with the way that the release shook out? Now? Yeah, I

can't complain. You know, I definitely feel like it was both releases were went as great as they could have gone. Um. I definitely went into that year thinking one of these is going to fail or one of these is all short and at least you have the other as like a kind of lifeboat. Uh, and then both of that, you know what. I really felt like the book was like taking off more than the record in a way.

And then we were nominated for Drew Grammys and it kind of just like, oh, I think they're actually like really neck and neck here. Um, so yeah, I'm really delighted. I honestly was just I had no idea how either of them were going to be taken in and so I really I was so worried, um that I was going to like get captle or something. But it ended up only like lifting a figh which was which is nice.

So now I'm very grateful that had happened with There's this kind of common notion among creative people, and I don't know, maybe even non creative people. I suppose that the best art comes from pain. You need to be an anguish in order to be productive as an artist, and you've you've spoken about this in the past about feeling that way yourself at points I was wondering, has the experience of making Jubilee and coming out the other side of this Catharsis of writing the book, has that

changed that that notion for you? Oh yeah, definitely, I mean I think that, Um yeah, I think that that was part of the challenge. Um that was exciting about writing an album about joy was that parts of it We're going to have to lean into fiction. And also, as you get older, to you like all of the real like meat and potatoes of great songwriting, the yearning and the jealousy and you know, like heartbreak are not really things that I go through in my life anymore.

And so I was really worried going into it that it would lose some like real feeling by not having that in song. And so it was really comforting after writing this album, and also I wrote a couple of songs for this video game soundtrack called Sable, where was also having to like write in this very different type of way that wasn't so much about like my own

personal trauma. Um that it was a real relief that that I think that some of my most compelling music is music that has nothing to do with me personally at all. Jubilees your your third album, and you've talked a lot about the myth of the third album and being sort of a crucial point in an artist discography. I want to ask you more about that, that this sort of the third album, Uh Ethos, Yeah, I mean for me, I just think it's the first time as an artist you can really start to think about your

records in context of one another. You know, for the first two it's like your debut, and then there's this fear of the sophomore slump, and by three, I feel like you're kind of thinking, Okay, where does this, how do these work with my previous work? When am I trying to move away from one? Am I just trying

to strengthen UM? And for me, I just feel like the third album you should really just know who you are, like, what your strengths are is as an artist, and and and how to put that forward, how to showcase that UM And I feel like a lot of times the third album is like a real um bombastic, theatrical like culmination of all of the work that you've done up until that point. And I was thinking a lot about records like UM New York's Homogenic and Well Coast Summer

Teeth and Beach House's Teen Dream. Like, all these third albums are just feel like real thesis statements I think in an artist's career, and so I was going in with that in mind. The arrangements on this record are just absolutely stunning. I mean, I love one of my favorites of the strings on Tactics. I can totally hear like the early Randy Newman vibe on that It's so good.

Now you've recently started studying music theory, which to me is amazing considering how much you've accomplished prior to studying music theory. Um. You hear stories of people like Paul McCartney saying that they can't read music and they're almost reluctant to try because they're worried that that's gonna, you know, take some of the spontaneity out of what they do. Did did you encounter that? Like what went into your

decision to start um studying music theory? Yeah, I mean I just felt like I had sort of plateaued musically, UM, and you know, I was worried about writing too many songs in the key of D or the same chord progression or um the same Yeah. Like I have a lot of like chord ships that I, you know, just tend to fall too because they're comfortable for me. And

that was part of it. And their part was Craig Hendricks, who was drums in our bands the produced with me on Off Sounds from Another Planet and Jubilee like comes from Perpolic school music and I've always been like exceptionally jealous of him and his talents, and so much of that comes from that sort of education. So I've always felt a little insecure about that in a good way that I just wanting to challenge myself to to learn more.

And I feel like, especially now, I've just gotten so far not really knowing or not writing that way that I think that, um, it's a really it's a very easy way, um to kind of incorporate more interesting ways to write a song and uh, just learning when you hear a moment in a song like why why that mathematically is like interesting to you? And and and to learn that about my own songs and actually start from there when I go into writing things I think will

be really helpful. So I think that Kokomo was an example where I was like the first TIMI incorporated like a minor fourth chord and was like learning, you know, like from Beatles songs, how to how to do do things like that and what made it interesting. How do you know when a song is done? Is there a temptation to tinker for you a lot or or do you kind of know immediately when you have it? Um? I think it's a little bit of both. I mean, so much of making music is rooted in intuition where

it just feels like you're you're for me. I always I always talk about how, Um, I'm always searching for a lift in music emotionally, like in a chorus, like I want to feel like my heart is like being lifted into a new place. Um. I think a song always needs to have that for me, and so I'm always like trying to support lifts in music sonically. Um. And when I feel like that's really there and a song travels in that way, it's just a very like

almost physical feeling that it is done. Um. Sometimes it's it's harder than than others finding that, but I do think that it is it's like really ingrained in me when when it's not there. Yeah, do you find that that your favorite songs kind of come the quickest. Um, that's a great question. Uh some sometimes, yeah, I mean I think that uh yeah, there are certain I'm trying

to think of, like specific songs that I love. I mean, Boyish, like that's off of the last album, Soft Sounds, was something that took years to figure out how to get right, and I think is one of my favorite songs because it took so long to get there in a way and I went through so many iterations. But then there are songs like you know, Kokomo is one of my favorite songs off of this record, and that song did

come together pretty pretty quickly. Early in your your time making music as Japanese Breakfast you uh you involved with the project where you a song every day for the month of June, and you've talked about how so much of the work of being an artist is showing up and putting yourself out there, which is so interesting to me as a music lover who loves music and plays instruments.

But I've never been able to write a song my entire life, and I just sort of assumed that you kind of had it, or you don't, you were touched with this fire or you weren't. Um, So it was really refreshing to hear you say that. Do you still approach songwriting in the same way as it's still like a daily practice for you, like some people do yoga or jog Yeah, I mean definitely not. I I um, it's a very like on and off thing for me.

I feel like, uh, if I'm entering the song writing, like if it's time for me to write a new record, um, I like pull, like pull on the tap and then and then that's when I start getting regimented about showing up every day. But until then, I don't. I don't. I don't pick up a guitar. Honestly, I never like tried to write unless I'm like setting out to write an album. I don't know if that's a good thing

or bad thing. But yeah, it used to be when I was younger, I would like it would inspiration would strike, and then you would go and do it. But now it's more of just like, if I'm ready to write an album, I'll spend I'll turn on the top for like a week and write every day for a week, and then I have to go and do something else and turn it off for a while. You're gonna hang up on me for this question, But I was curious if there's a flip side to the showing up every day.

Is there is there a supernatural element to the songwriting at all? They believe, I think so, yeah, I do. I mean I think that in a way. I think you're like chasing a voice in your head, you know, I mean there is kind of something magical and uh hunting about that feeling like I don't know where that sound comes from, what I hear it in my head? And you're creating, you know, you're chasing after it. Is there an element of superstition for you when you right?

Is there a certain time of day that you feel is better, or a lucky instrument, or a room or even just a ritual like okay, I need my cup of tea before I begin this or not. Really I think for me, it's just creating that space. Um I do, Like I think, I just so badly want to be this regimented morning person, even though I'm maybe you want and and and that is how I kind of right now.

It's like if I think, if I think about going into the to start writing this next record, I probably will be like in a room for a week, like writing every day, But I really like creating, uh like weird guidelines and rules for myself because I find that like having those weird restrictions or limitations is actually really helpful for me, Like something like June, where it's like you have you have to write a song every day.

It doesn't matter, like if you have three jobs that day, it doesn't matter if you have ten minutes, Like you're leaving here with a song. And I think that creating that opportunity for like Ross unapologetic, like Ross source material is really helpful for me to return to edit and jump off of when I when I talk to people who are are blessed with the ability to to write music, I'm always so curious about what what compels them to do.

So if is it a desire to connect with other people and share or is it more of a need to just get these feelings out of you and you would write just as much if you were in a cabin in the woods alone or on a desert island somewhere, or is I imagine there's probably an element of both, but the one went out over the other. I never think about other people, Yeah, I never. I never think about other people because I think that I need to just write what I'm interested in and hopefully people will

like it and maybe they won't. But I never have thought about anyone else when I'm ready the Have you ever learn something about yourself after after writing a song? You know? They say like every character and a dream is you is when you listen to a song back that you've just written. Uh do you is? It almost like getting a really good dream reading? That's a great question. Um have I learned? Um? I don't. I don't know.

I don't know if I mean. I think a lot of my songs honestly, and I kind of like caught myself because that's like, you can't keep doing this. But a lot of my songs will start with something like I want uh. And I've noticed that I was doing that too often, where it's like I want to be a woman of regimen or I wanna be good, I

wanna do this thing. And I was like, oh, this is like a thing that you're doing a lot, And so I do think I noticed, like, yeah, I think in a way it reveals like where your psyche is because there are certain things that are like um, dogging you that you can escape from from writing about or like is something that you want to impact. Uh yeah, I think that that that pattern and looking back at like something that you always kind of like are writing

and grappling with. This is clearly like a reflection of your psyche in some way, even if it is a song that's like kind of rooted in fiction. I mean, I want ambition, forward thinking. Yeah. The visuals I meant to mention this earlier for this record are just absolutely stunning. I mean from the bright yellow color palette of the cover and the promos to the amazing videos. I mean that the Spike Jones does X Files be Sweet? I mean posing a bondage savage good boy, It's they're so incredible.

How how are you inspired for the visual components of music? Are you're aware of them as you're writing the song. Do you get the visuals in your head almost like synesthesia? Or you sit down and think about it after the fact. Um, I'm not going to be an artist that since, but I don't really think about the visuals at all until the song is done, because the song changes so much in arrangement and production from when it first starts, you know,

so once the album is done. Um. And also it's so frustrating because sometimes you have a really good idea and the label or or you even don't want it to be a single, and so if you know, you have to like if even if you have an idea, you have to like kind of get it out of your head. Um. But yeah, I think it's become just

like a delightful part of the process. Um. Adam Clodney is the director of photography on on all of my music videos and it's such a at this point, it doesn't feel complete unless I direct three music videos to accompany an album, and it's such a big part of the process and and something that I really enjoy. But yeah, usually the ideas don't really come until after the song's completely. You've you've said in interviews that, Um, making music gave

you the confidence to write this book. I was wondering, what is the book given you confidence to do? Oh? Um, gosh, I mean, I guess it's given me confidence to write again and know that I it's okay to to work in multiple mediums and and you know, it's just done so well and so I think it's just encouraged me, um, that that that's the path that I can continue to take. It as writing albums and writing books. I think it's those that taught me. I mean, you know, honestly, the

book taught me so so much about myself. I think I was able to find a lot of forgiveness uh in the book for for all of the characters, you know, the characters of my life and UM, myself included, UM. I had. I used to have so much shame and guilt about UM being a difficult teenager, uh and and putting my mom through, you know, a difficult time. And I think that through writing this book, I came to realize that, you know, we were up against um such

challenging odds. We had no representation in the media, and we had no peers that we're going through being a mother and daughter raised from different cultures with very different upbringings and values that in retrospect, of course, we were going to have that type of friction. And I think that I didn't really understand that or really even think about our relationship in that context until I started writing

this book. And that was really freeing for me, uh, to forgive myself for putting my mom through you know, these sort of like rotten teenage moments. Because I think I was coming from a place where you know, it was just difficult. I had no um, I had no reference points. Uh, And I think that, Yeah, that was really comforting to me that that wasn't a big moment

for me to learn from. I imagine the revision process of this book must have been so interesting because you know, as a narrator, it's your job to be fair to people. I imagine that the when that's tough to do when these are personal stories with a lot of emotion tied into it. First draft, you put it down as you remember it, and then I imagine reading it back and seeing it, I mean black and white it on the

page must have almost neutralized it in a way. I don't know if that's a word at all or the way to use that word, but made it something more neutral that you could objectively see and kind of see the situation maybe for closer to what it actually was and not how you remembered it. Yeah, I mean the revision was really where I feel like the the writing really began in a way that makes sense. Like I think that the first draft of this book was a disaster,

but it needed to be. It like needed to be I think like the real good parts of the book, like you know, obviously came in in the revision. The most exciting part of writing for me was the revision process and watching that come together, because it definitely made me realize I was so the first draft was very angry, very angry at my dad, very angry, okay, very angry at all of my relatives, all of my friends, all

me mom. And I think that after writing it all out there in the rawest form and then taking six months you know, maybe like four or five it's away from it, and having an editor come in and give their take on it, and then read it again for the first time, I really realized how angry I was. And then to be able to go in and be like, okay, now go back in and and be fair. Um, it was. It was a real learning experience and I'm in a

real joy of of that revision process. Or there's a part in the book that really stuck with me when your your mother tells you to always hold of yourself back and I imagine as an artist, where you know, being fully transparent in a lot of ways is sort of the goal that's probably very hard to do. Uh.

Is that a struggle for you? To know where to draw that line where to keep things back in any medium, in in in writing, in in screenwriting, in music, to know where that line is for where to keep things back for yourself. Yeah, I mean it's less in art for me than it is just in my daily life, you know. I mean I think that in in at least it's more of like in the industry of like how to protect yourself and not completely trusting people. Um

is where that ten percent comes in for me. I mean, there's certainly parts of my life that are that are private and are not in the book, even though it seems like everything is there. Um. But yeah, I think that it's I don't know that is it's just I guess in an intuition of just like what is what is for other people? What is for what is for me? And it's now being made into a film, which I mean as a as a film studies major and a creative writing student, that that just must be the most

thrilling thing in the world. And congratulations. Uh, but films are, you know, probably the ultimate collaborative art form. And this is such a personal story. Other people will be playing you and people that very important people in your life how does that sit with you? Is that an exciting prospect? There is that a little unsettling that sort of a bunch of these people are going to be playing a role in this very personal story for you. Um, honestly,

it's mostly unsettling. But I mean I think that, um, I've I'm also you know, I I think it has the potential to be something really special and I'm really excited for it, and I think that, um, the people involved will help make it something really beautiful. And I think that I have a good I tend to have a good um feeling about people, and I feel like the production company and my producers are people that are not going to let this be bad. And then I do think that I will have some strong input to

help it along. But yeah, we'll see. I don't know, I'm it's scary. Certainly. Stacy Shard could the Garden State soundtrack, which, like I mean, Stare did a lot of incredible things, and I feel like so um inspired and protected by her, and it just makes complete sense that like someone even on her level still works like just so in the trenches, Like it's it's incredible. I mean there she is, like

she's such a punk, like truly um. But then she's like, you know, she like produced the Oscars last year, Like she's like on such a high level in Hollywood, and yet she's still a punk and nuts what makes her incredible in her job? I think, like, it's fine. It's and I was so nervous about entering Hollywood, and it's not really like ever been something that's like interesting or or exciting to me the way that it is for I think a lot of people. It's It's something I

was very very skeptical of going into. And I'm really glad that similar in music, if you just find your people, there are your people in every sphere, you just have to, you know, apply that same kind of judgment into into it. I'm calling it now Oscars. I mean, you're you're gonna be on your way when he got You got Grammys this weekend. Oh my gosh, we're speaking just a few days before the Grammys and your first time nominee for Best New Artist and Best Alternative Album. My question is

basically a line from Paprika. How does it feel to stand at the height of your powers to captivate every heart, projecting your visions to strangers who feel it who lives some who linger on every word. I don't think I can ask the question any better than that. How does it feel? How are you feeling? It's rush? I set myself up for that. Yeah, yeah, it feels really great.

I'm like really excited to be going to the Grammys with like three are actually like four like d I y Philly Bunks I came up with you know, uh, my band is going with me and are our man one of our managers like actually being a little big big, and so it feels like so wild that we've infiltrated

this world. They're like, actually, just it was my birthday yesterday and my um my bass player found this old photo of us like years ago staying at this like disgusting punk house, like all sleeping on one pull out couch, and it's just craziest think of life, how how far we've come, and it's it's a real like miracle. Oh my gosh. Well, happy belated birthday, by the way, I I uh, your your your your present. The Grammy is coming, I promise. Yeah, Oh my gosh. I mean that's just

something so incredibly well deserved. I mean, I just I'm so so happy for I mean, I love the fact that one of the nominations was announced by BTS. That must have just been really special for your aunt and family and Korea. That they must have been excited about that. It was really cool. I hope that they still play. I know that one thing you like got COVID and like,

maybe they won't be able to perform. Oh my gosh. Well, there there was something you you tweeted a ways back about where you said that a lot of your joy derived from from vengeance, which is amazing because I think a lot of us feel that way to a certain extent. It's brave to own it. But in the wake of this year, with all you've accomplished, I wanted to ask you about that. Do you still feel that way or

what brings you the most joy now? I guess it's the question I do you know, I still do feel like, really it's a weird thing. Sometimes I wish it wasn't that way, but sometimes I also like delight in. I think it's just those full circle moment things where it's just like, oh, I used to work at this co check and now this co check is named after me.

There's like some kind of vengeance in that you know, just like those are the things that um, you know you like are really really put it in perspective of like where where you came from and where you are now, and so those types of moments, UM still bring me great, great joy. You are Jimmy Fallon big Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Michelle, congratulations, it's been a true joy speaking to you. UM pre up. So, I mean, you know, you know, I've done so many

interviews and this is so thoughtful and very special. Thank you so much for putting the time and care into this. I really appreciate it. It is the least I can do for all I've gotten out of your work. Thank you, and Paprika, you have the line I want my offering to woo, to calm, to clear, to solve, and I'd say you've gone above and beyond. So thank you for your time today and thank you for your music. You're

the best. Thank you so much. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Inside the Studio, a production of I Heart Radio. For more episodes of Inside the Studio or other fantastic shows, check out the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast