ITS Home Edition: Finneas

After all, he and his sister Billie Eilish made her album When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go literally in his bedroom, and that is one of the most important and most successful albums of like the last ten years. But it's not just the whole idea of staying at home and staying creative that Phineas has a lot to tell us about right now. His recent single what They'll Say About Us is a real reflection of

this moment. During racial justice protests marches in Los Angeles this summer, he imagined himself explaining what was going on to someone laying in a hospital bed fighting COVID. As he tells our quarantine correspondent Jordan Runtog, he sees optimism as being aware of the bad stuff that's happening around you and making a choice to stay positive, and Phineus also has a lot to say about taking a Sudoku approach to writing a James Bond theme, working on Billy's

second album, and working on his own. So if you enjoy this episode, be sure to check out the I Heart Radio podcast that Jordan's hosts, which is called Rivals Music's Greatest Feuds and which is available wherever you get your podcasts. Hello everyone, my name is Jordan Runtalg but enough about me. My guest today has won multiple Grammys, co written the Bond theme, and acted on a hit TV show, and he did it all before turning twenty three.

You probably know him for his collaborations with his sister Billie Eilish. He's also overseen hits for JP Sacks, Ash, Selena Gomez, Toblow, and Halsey, to name but a few. Last fall, he dropped a solo EP, Blood Harmony, and now he has a new single called what They'll Say About Us. The song is his way of processing the tumult of a year unlike any other. I'm so happy

to welcome Phineas. Phineas, how are you? I'm good? It's it's been raining ash in Los Angeles I don't know where where you're calling me from, but it's been just it looks like your Blood Harmony cover. Really I wish it was that pretty. It's it's just this kind of smoky gray, very depressing and sort of alarming. But like we've been indoors, a lot of people have been comparing the weather to like Blade Runner, like all the orange skies and Blade Runner, and my girlfriend was like, I

don't think i've ever seen later. Well, then let's watch Blade Runner. So we watched we like on Friday, we had nothing to do and we just marathon. Like both Blade Runner movies, the first one and then the one that came out. They're so good. They are so good. But it definitely I can imagine like living in it right now probably like inhibitor ability to enjoy them to some extent. You're like, it's too bad. The future isn't that cool Like we have like we have like all

the pollution and like not any flying cars. Somebody dropped the ball on that. I know the first Blade Runner takes place in and they're like flying around and uh, we're not rocking that yet, so like back to the future to also let us down when back to the future too took place in or something. Yeah, we blew it. I know, man, It's actually kind of sweet because it

just means that people were very optimistic. Yeah, that would be like if we were like, what would the example be if we were like, yeah, we will have stopped climate change by two thousand and twenty two, Like, I wish we were that proficiently. That's kind of where I want to start with you. I mean, this year must be so insane for you for so many reason. I mean you go from sweeping the Grammy's performing at the Oscars to like six weeks later being confined to your home.

I mean, what was what was that adjustment? Like it was like, you know, whip lash. It was super weird. I mean, you know, on one hand, I think, like, I feel very privileged to have had a very enjoyable first two months of the year before everything kind of like collapsed in on itself. The lucky thing is that in if I'm lucky enough to live this long twenty years from now, I will be like looking back at two thousand and I'll be like, yeah, that was a

weird period. But obviously, like these these seminal moments in my life also took place that year, And aren't I lucky? I don't think I'll remember only the terrible things, which obviously there are so many terrible things to remember. So yeah, I feel very lucky. And uh and you know what, like on another very selfish level, like at least we had been touring the world for you know, three years

straight when everything came to a halt. I think if we were only just starting it would be very devastating. At least we know what it's like and we what we have to look forward to in you know, a year or so time, when you know, maybe it's safe to go play Arenas again. But yeah, I mean it's it sucks. I mean we you know, we love touring. We love traveling. It's it's one of our favorite things in the world. So it's pretty torturous to not get to do that with most of the people have in

the show. I ask, you know, well, you're in lockdown. How's how's working from home been like affected your creative process? It must be so different, But I imagine for you it's probably not the biggest change in the world. No, it's been I mean, like, to be totally honest, it's been like in terms of like making Billy's second album making my first album. It's been awesome, you know, Like I know that's kind of crazy to say, but like there's no way we'd be writing and recording as much

this year otherwise. So I'm trying to look at it like I'm kind of trying to look at it like we have this thing that no artist ever gets. Basically, here's the deal. Every artist makes the first album, and then if it's successful, they tour it into oblivion, and then there's somehow it's affected to like have made album two in that time, which is just kind of crazy. I mean, our version of that was that we made

the James Bond song on tour. But it's like we have this crazy luxury of like having this amount of time off after the first album that I think almost no artist gets anymore. So I'm kind of like I'm playing like mind games with myself where I'm like, as soon as there is a vaccine and everything can start up again, like you're you're never going to get a break ever again, because everyone's going to be trying to make up for two years within the span of like

six months. So I'm kind of like pretending this is like some short term forced hiatus or something where we're just like, we have to make this next record, and I'm really enjoying making it. I'm loving all the songs we're writing, and it's really fun. So you feeling productive. That's good. And I feel like I know people on both sides of that, they're there like I'm just really on it, or it's like I can barely get out of bed. Please don't make me do an entirely. It's

it's it's day by day. I should remind you that. Earlier in this call, I admitted to watching both played in the movie on Friday, and I also that same day I watched like an hour and a half behind the scenes of the Social Network, and also I watched an episode of The Boys. So it was like, you know, there there are days where I am super prolific, and then there are days where I watched like three movies You Gotta, You Gotta, you Know, Prime, The Pump, I Guess, EBB,

and Flow. Yeah, Well, tell me about your new song. What they'll say about us? It seems you know, I got a lot of hope in that song, which is not something we we get a lot of this year. You know, Um, that's definitely what I was aiming for. I think, I think, I mean, there are other songs that may never see the light of day that I

wrote during this that are just dirges. They're just like bleak, this sucks, you know, that's kind of the m O. And I think the reason I felt so proud of this song was I I wrote it during the Black Lives Matter protests in June, and I was like going to them, and it was like it was like the only thing that I could justify going out and doing. Like I still haven't been out to like eat at a restaurant or anything. It just seems too too irresponsible.

I see my family, my parents are in their sixties whatever. But I was like, you know what, I have to go to these protests and and if if that jeopardizes my health, I'll, you know, I'll quarantine for two weeks whatever, I'll take the hit because these protests are important, and whenever I go to protests, I feel really hopeful. Gone

to marches my whole life. In l A. We've marched against the Iraq War, and we went to the Women's March in the March for our Lives in Boston, and the marches make me feel really good because you're like marching down the street with all these people who agree with you. And I think the Internet at its best is like this empathy machine where we see people, you know, suffering, and we feel bad for them even though we don't

know them. And it's worse, it's this like divisive division where we're like just seeing everybody that disagrees with us about everything, and it's you're just like, oh my god, how do I disagree so fundamentally with this person that otherwise isn't that different than I am. We grew up in the same place, you know. It's kind of crazy. So anyway, protests make me feel really good. And I had come home and I sort of started this thing,

this this kind of hopeful pace. But at the same time, I was following Amanda Clutz, who's the wife of Nick Cordero, who at the time was dying of COVID in the hospital or dying of you know whatever they call it, complications due to COVID, where his lungs had been obliterated by the virus, And so I was like singing kind of in the vein of like maybe maybe he's gonna

be okay, and like, wouldn't that be great? And if you were the loved one of a person who was lying in a hospital bed and you were kind of explaining all the protests and everything, you know what you might say, And so that was kind of the nut of that song, and then everything beyond that was was just sort of like trying to be as self aware of it as possible. I find I find some songs

that are like optimistic sort of hard to take. So there's like a line in the second verse that's like if I say a cliche because I mean it, and I think that's like the whole kind of nature of a song like that is like you are saying this thing that might seem a little bit foolhardy or a little bit like blind, but it's like I think, I think to be optimistic is to be aware of negative things that are happening and to be like, you know what, I'm still gonna be hopeful and I'm still gonna like

root for us. I have not yet resorted to nihilism, which is the next the next state. Everyone treats twenty like it's this bad year I'm one is the nihilist year that's like the year where we're all just like, never mind, it's never gonna go away, And you performed that the d n C in August. I mean that must be an incredible thing to to lend your voice to, you know, it was. We saw it as a good

opportunity to throw weight. You know. I think this is a really important election, and I think anybody who doesn't think this is an important election is is privileged to not paying much attention. And we were just like, we'd love to make whatever small amount of difference we can try to make would be useful. I think we were just like the option of like looking back at this period and having done nothing is like very grim to me. So how do you balance with all this going and

being so aware what's going on in the world. How do you how do you find a good work life balance in the midst of all that. I know that sounds like a very sort of trite question, but I think it's something a lot of people are dealing it. It's super hard. I've like put those like app limits on my phone of like the Instagram, Twitter, social media, like screen time limits where your phone just kind of like shuts you out, and I that's a struggle, you know,

I think I think it's really challenging. The thing that I try to remind myself is that, in my specific case, my work is the thing that brings me fulfillment, right, writing songs, producing them, that makes me feel really good looking at the news cycle. Although I think it is important,

it doesn't make me feel good at all. My joke, and I haven't even tweeted this, but like, you know how on Twitter there's like the categories in the app of like COVID related sports entertainment, right, so I don't know if you've checked, maybe yours is different. But the fun tab on Twitter, there's like a fun section. It has one thing right now, and it's like and it's not even that fun. The thing is like, let me pull it up, it's like bizarre. You're just like, this

isn't even fun here. I'm opening it really quick. Okay, So the fun tab, it's like three three things and one of them is just imagine explaining these things from two people living in nineteen and I'm like, that's not fun.

That's not fun. It's still dark anyway. So I just try to get off the apps as much as I can because the stuff that brings me joy is like going on walks with my friends and hanging out with my girlfriend and the stuff I can do safely that feels very like connected social media, even though it's important, it's like, does not make me feel very good. I don't think I know anyone who makes them feel really good.

I know. I think the issue is that it is a little bit like a nicotine addiction, where it gives you some dope amine. Like you go on, you see some likes, you see some nice comments, and so you're like wow, like I'm I am loved and valued, and then it's like you just spiral off into like looking at terrible articles about the whole West Coast burning down.

So it's it's a tricky balance, right, you don't want to turn a blind diet of problems, but you also don't want to ruin your own life by observing it's not actually constructive to look at something negative happening in the world on your Twitter unless you're then going to like do something about it, Right, I try to look at it that way. It's like, all right, I can I can indulge in this weird habit of like looking at terrible news as long as I then plan on

instilling some form of change. Well, you're working on so many things right now. Does what they'll say about us mean that there's a full length LP on the way coming from you soon. There's definitely it's on the way. I mean it's I'm I'm working on it all the time. It was sort of like, um, if I had to answer, I would imagine that that song will play a role in the album. I don't think the album is far enough away that it would not fit on the album.

I think it will be there. But I didn't want to like announce a record or release date with that song because I felt like I wanted to just let that song exist because I really believe in that song, and I think, like I think sometimes when you announce a single with a record, it's like people are just like, oh my god, like there's a record coming. And also I'm not actually done with a record. I'm like working on the songs all the time, but have lots of

work to do. I've always been so fascinated by the unusual sounds in your records, you know, like a lit match is a snare, dentist rill, or like an Australian Crosswalk, Beep, and bad Guy. What is your process for incorporating those? Do you have like an arsenal of cool sounds and tape loops that you draw from, or do you hear a sound in your head that you know you want and you just start experimenting with what's around you. Totally both.

It just depends on the situation. I'm always looking for inspiration, right, I think one of the issues with you know, the more music you make is the more things you think you've covered, And anything that reinspires me is really exciting. You know. It's like this is a weird example, but like so so watch the sound of like the song

of the match Sticks. Like that song is like a C chord and an F chord and a minor chord and an F chord, and like those are chords that like I have written so many songs with those chords that they are they do not carry inspiration for me anymore. And you chuck the match sticks in there, and it's very cool and inspiring to me, and I think that's like, That's what I'm always going for. It's just like something to reinspire. Have you ever heard of Pink Floyd's Household

Objects project. Yeah, I thought that was a really cool project. I haven't done it, but I thought it was like really smart. Yeah, it's like because I think that was followed Dark Side of the Moon too, so it's almost like a similar position where Okay, we we did what we set out to do a thousand times over, beyond the wildest dreams and then finding inspiration in the in

the every day. It's fascinating. I was joking with my dad because I'm I'm really proud of the second album that we're working on with Billy Um And I was talking to my dad and I was like, but I'm like, we're supposed to do this every time, Like are we supposed to make like a really good album, like over and over? Like it's so hard. But you know, I think that's it's about reinspiring yourself and it's about growing

as a person. Like it's a funny thing that people level this criticism of like my favorite artists have changed, because it's like, what the what on earth could they expect you to do as an artist other than change? That's I mean, that's it's such a funny criticism that people Yeah, I don't really understand that. I I mean listen to every Beatles album post nineteen sixty four, and it sounds completely different than the one before it. Yeah, I

know they're so different. I do understand that if you are a fan of a record, that doesn't mean that you're going to be a fan of someone else's record if it's a very different record. But it's like that's how music is supposed to work, Like you kind of have to make music for yourself and then whoever likes

it will like it. God, if I were always trying to cater to like one listener, like, I wouldn't have made like half the songs I'm proud of because I would have just been like second guessing them, been like, oh my god, they're not gonna like this. So I think it's a it's a double edged sword because obviously we're all as artists, like very indebted to whoever listens to our music, and that's why we have a career. But it's also like I think of this in terms

of like food in a certain way. If I only ever ate stuff, I already like I'd never try anything new that's great, and it's like I feel like that's that's the best. And you go to a new restaurant and you try something, You're like, I have no idea how that's going to be, and you try, like, oh my god, it's amazing. And and I think that's like what I always aimed to do as a musician, is like give someone something they didn't even know they wanted.

And I assume being in your position now, having one, you know, all the Grammys, you have all sorts of resources open to you that you might not have before. I mean, you could have a wall of melotrons or a string section or you know, whatever you want. Do you have any desire to vastly expand your sonic paletin anyway? Or did you feel like you have everything you need with your laptop and you know, logic tools or whatever.

So I spent a considerable amount of money this year on like instruments and microphones that I couldn't afford before. And I think you know what I would say to like any young listener who's like I, I record my own vocals on a microphone called a Chandler Red now, which I really like. And my my buddy yesterday was like, I gotta get a new microphone. I was like, you should get a Chandler Red and he was like, I was thinking get in the TLM one O three and

I was like, well, that's that. Mike's fine, and he was like, didn't you record all of Billy's album on that mike? And I was like yeah. I was like, it's a great mike. I was like, I'm just telling the other one's even better. And he was like, right, but it doesn't matter, and I was like, no, it's absolute, really doesn't matter. It's just it's a very selfish purchase, right,

It's like I enjoy it. But yes, in the last several months, I've I've acquired really sort of more mostly before COVID, but um, I've acquired like some really nice mix and some cool vintage sense and stuff and like, to be honest, I don't know how to feel about this, but I still like largely am using like built in software on my computer because it's fast and I'm usually looking for speed. But it is really fun, and again,

it's like it's the inspiration that I'm looking for. I'm not like a super like analog verse digital like convert. I think digital sounds pretty great. I have a couple of sins. I have this thing called an ace tone. You know, I play that and it inspires me a lot. And you know, in making a second album and then making my own first album, like I'm I love being reinspired by things, um and approaching things in a different way.

So that's kind of like that would be my like encouragement to people in terms of like what they invest money on and with years, you know, like wait until you're uninspired by something and then and then get something new to reinspire you and re excite you. That would be my advice. Are you superstitious at all? Do you go back to the bedroom at your parents house to do the vocals? Just think at the sound of that room. I am. I am not at all superstitious or sentimental.

I will like throw away or give away anything. I don't know, man, people let like sentimentality like rule like their whole lives, and I get it, but like I've never felt that way. The only devices I keep, and I keep them largely because I just know how quickly they're gonna seem crazy. Is I keep all of my computers like I have like my my first computer and my second computer whatever, because they don't take out that

much space. And also I just know that like in thirty years, it's gonna look nuts, like we're just gonna be like, what is this? Yeah, exactly, So I'm not I'm not superstitious. People are so funny about the bedroom man, Like they're all just like, I gotta go back there and record, And I'm like, you know, my my mom sleeps in there now, like it's not my I have a different house. But the only thing that's in that bedroom that I would maybe records my granddad's old beat

up piano, his upright is in there. So I'm might someday maybe I'll be like, I gotta have that cloudy upright sound again. But it's kind of it. It's kind of a an asinine hypothetical question. If you were growing up in the sixties and a purely analog era where people went to like gold Star or Abbey Road or whatever to cut records, do you think you'd still be involved with production? Like how do you think your career would be different if you didn't have tools that you

have a new laptop right now. Such a good question, man, Um, you know, I think I think I am so a product of the period of time where I was born and what was accessible to me. You know, if I were born with the same brain and the same appetites and the same interests, I'm sure I would be involved in music in some capacity. But the level of innovation I've been able to be a part of, I have no idea if that would be available to me or

achievable to me. I mean, it's like it's kind of everybody, right, Like Bill Gates had access to that computer mainframe at his college and whatever. You know, he's a very smart dude, but like he had access. You know, if you if you take away his access, no matter how smart he was, he wouldn't have been able to learn it the way that he learned it. So I think there would have

been amazing things about growing up in the sixties. There were so many amazing musicians back then, and holy sh it, it it would have been so cool to maybe produce like the Beatles or something. But um, who knows. People love like the time machine stuff and like as cursed as this period of time may seem to be, I want to be right now, Like I don't even know if I want to be in the future, Like I

think I just want to be like right now. Well, that's the best way to be every every Buddhist in the world right now is like, yes, I've been listen to this right not being at the moment. You made a Bond theme on a tour bus. I think he said, I mean that that is believable. I mean, I gotta I'm a huge Bond nerd. What was the process like for that? That is? It's just so cool? It was

a really cool process. I am also a Bond nerd and I have I have always looked at doing a Bond theme as like the the pinnacle of film music collaboration. So it was always on my fantasy bucket list of like, wouldn't that be unbelievable to do? And you know, they were making this, this Bond movie, and we kind of got wind of that, not in a secret way. I think it was just like the way that anyone would know that they're making a movie. Were like, are they

making a new Bond movie this summer? Isn't Daniel Craig doing another one? And uh, we were just like to our team, We're like, we will meet with anyone that will let us meet with them to try to convince

them that we're right to do this, you know. So we met with Barbara Broccoli and we met with MGM and what we were given and I think I'm allowed to say this, We were given like a scene of the script that was kind of it like the cold open, Yeah, and um, so we had that and and that was see huge, because um, it's so important to know what

angle you're writing from. And then on a personal note, because I'm kind of obsessed with Bond themes, I was like, has to be the movie title, Like all of my favorite Bond themes are the movie title, like Live and Let Die, Skyfall, gold Finger, like it has to be. That was like caveat number one. And then two was I'm pretty loosey goosey in terms of like what what

I'm trying to achieve with goals as a songwriter. But with a Bond song, to me, the melody has to be completely bulletproof, Like it has to be like a melody because it's going to be interpolated through the whole movie, like every Bond theme is played by like strings and orchestra in the rest of the movie. So I was like, the melody has to be like amazing and very Bond.

So I wrote all of the melodies first, and then Billy and I said about sort of perfecting like what line would go on each melody, which is very atypical. Usually I write melodies and lyrics at the same time, because it's much harder to write a lyric, I think when you don't have the melody already. Sorry, it's hard to write the lyric when you have a melody because you have to just like it's a little bit like sadoku, like you have to like just fill in the blanks

in this way. So that was it was this really challenging thing. But it actually from sort of start to finish of that specific song only a couple of days, although there were there were months of like super stress, what are we gonna do? And and Tony Siler, who was our champion at Billy's label, Interscope, who I adore. I think Tony is the greatest. He was the one kind of like up to bat for us, you know, and he would check in with us. Yeah, it was.

It was a stressful experience, but mainly it was only stressful because I just really wanted to write a great song, like I love those bombs songs so much, so I'm really proud of the song. That's gotta be so hard. I mean to write something that fits the aesthetic but also isn't a total cliche to like that's gotta be that isn't done before, like that it hasn't already been done. Like it was a really satisfying experience. It was also a really phenom gonna excuse to work with Hans Zimmer

and Johnny Marr. Well, they kind of our package deal. Johnny was working with Hans on the whole film, and then Stephen Lipson like helped produce the song with us. But it was so cool, you know, because Billy and I are so insular with our own records, doesn't really make sense to collaborate with anybody because we're just in a room throwing stuff into a fire and seeing what explodes.

And I feel like with a bond thing. They're like, I'm so glad, Like if if they told me to do a string arrangement, I would have been like, let me try to rip off Hans Zimmer. And if they told me to play guitar, I've been like, let me try to rip off Johnny Marr. So the fact that I got to just have them beyond the record was so sick. It was that great line that han Zimmer had. It was like, whenevery whenever I get into the studio produced I want, I find myself wondering can I do

it again? There's something we're seeing on his like masterclass thing that he's like, I'm I'm vinced I don't know how to do your movie. Dude. He's the Yeah, every time, every time I'm every time I'm in the middle of producing a song, I'm like, maybe this is the one where I don't know how to do it. Like me, maybe the last song was the last one I'll ever make. That's good, Like, I don't know, man, it's so weird.

Your brain is your brain is dumb. Like the fact that your brain puts up such a fight against like new stuff is just it's crazy. So he's a he's a legend and rightfully so and so nice and so collaborative and so like. There was this one point we were doing like versions of production. We're like, you know, version one of production, version two of production, version three of production, version for productive, and there was this version

that Billy and I were like, this is bad. And I was like, Wow, I'm gonna have to call han Zimmer and be like this is bad. And we called him and he was like it's bad, right, and I was like yeah, and he was like I know, and and it was like so it was so easy to I wish to have that little ego when I have won as many Oscars as he has one, like I feel like that's like unbelievable, Like if you win an Oscar,

I feel like your ego must just explode. And he's just this like mellow, nice guy, Like I just adore him, so I would do I would do like anything for him. I feel like I've pledged my allegiance to Hans. I gotta ask, aside from Daniel Craig, who's your favorite Bond? Oh? You know what, I really like. I have seen a film or two of the other of Conner and of Brasman, and I think they're great, But like Bond is like Batman. It's like whatever you grew up with. So like, I

just think of Craig as Bond. He's just my guy, I think. And again like not that the other Bonds weren't great. I think they were, but that's just who plays the role in my opinion, you know, I think that's like the Christian Bale Michael Keaton, Val Kilmer thing. It's like, you know, the Christian is my batman until Robert Pattinson is like unbelievable next year. Oh my god, I know I can't wait to see that. Okay, well, I gotta ask you. I've been asking. This has been

my last question for everybody. If you could snap your fingers and have everything go back to the way it was in no COVID, no virus, no lockdown, no quarantine, what is the first thing you would do, so like like like fantasy wake up one day and everything is just sort of like status quo again. Yeah, Freaky Friday style. Yeah. Um, really good question. I mean the things that have struck me are like the things that we take for granted. So I think I would I'd have to say, like

play a show. I think just the idea, Like we played so many shows in twenty nineteen that like we enjoyed them, but it was like we were constantly playing shows. And I remember being on stage in North Carolina, like the day before the lockdown started, where we're like about to go home and stop our tour, and I remember being like, wow, this this might be the last time I'm on stage for a long time, and uh yeah, that's the sort of you know, going out to eat,

seeing friends and stuff. That's all wonderful minutia, but there is just kind of nothing in the world like being on a stage plan a show. That was a solid answer Pace. Thank you so much for your time your music. It's been a pleasure. It was great talking to you. Thank you, man, it was really good talking to you. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Inside the Studio

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