Aaron Dessner

record with Bonaver's justin Vernon as Big Red Machine. This deeply personal work features a multitude of voices, including Sharon van Etton Fleet Foxes, Ben Howard and Taylor Swift. His working relationship with the pop superstar began in when he co produced her twin Lockdown offerings Evermore in Folklore, the ladder of which earned him an Album of the Year Grammy earlier this year. But despite Swift's high wattage star power, How Long Do You Think It's Gonna Last is certainly

a group effort and egalitarian enterprise. Brimming with warmth, the album is simply put a triumph, touching on themes of law, us, family and mental health, and a complex interplay between all three. I'm so happy to welcome Aaron Destner. Thanks so much. The album is absolutely amazing. And there's a great quote from from justin recently where he said it's not really a band but tongues of lead singers, and along those lines. What amazed me was that despite all these different voices,

there was such a unity to this album. Was that a challenge to keep everything sounding so so cohesive? Well, it was interesting. I think that because it is it's like a band, but there's no windows and doors and the and there's you know, kind of this multitude of voices, which was always our idea, that they almost like different

characters in the same book or something. And maybe the music, which I do, sort of initiate all the music, and maybe that's to come and thread and then they and I think thematically somehow the songs really feel all related to each other, and so I don't know, Yeah, it does feel very cohesive, which was honestly, it was a wonderful realization the end of the process because we're kind of you know, we didn't really it's more about process

than product in a way. And I think whence when we arrived at the end of the journey and there was this album. It was really kind of amazing to realize that it was it is cohesive, and that it really does feel like there's this interconnected thing going on with all the voices. You mentioned having the different voice being like characters in a book. I was gonna ask you, how do you decide who to bring on board for this?

Is it like a case of casting a song almost one would a part in a film, or is it

more free form than that. I think it's more about relationships where it's almost like you know, music to me is very it's very collaborative and and it's about friendship, and it's about sort of family and community, and like it's I'm maybe I'm idealistic that way, but I like to imagine that it's an earlier era of rock and roller of music where like, you know, people would wander down the hall and play on each other's records, or you know, there's a reason why Jerry Garcia was on

every record in ninety seven that was made in San Francisco or whatever. So like this, to me, it's everyone on this record I've either made a record with or wanted to make a record with. So I guess that's how we thought of It wasn't like, oh, let's get this superstar on this song. It's more like we just happened to be working together and it made and it like it's a very natural, organic process. He took the

words right out of my mouth. I was gonna ask. Obviously, the Grateful Dead means so much to you, and I'm hard pressed to think of a band that defines musical community to me then the Dead, both with their fans and then also with Jerry, like you said, playing on you know, David Crosby's album and Steven Still's albums, everybody's album in the late sixties. I was wondering how much of your relationship with the Dead influenced your desire to

have this this musical community around you. It's like an indelible imprint on my psyche or something from from like when I was a little kid, because that's how I discovered music, and that's what my brother and I like from a very early age, because we grew up in suburban Ohio, which was like a lot I mean everywhere in the early eighties as well. I was born in seventy six, but growing up like when I first started playing music. I was probably seven years old and already

we were listening to The Grateful Death then. And then when you start to really play guitar, and you're like, well, why can't I play like him exactly? You know, like why can't I figure this out? And I just was

a big influence. But I do really like I think with Big Grid Machine, Justin and I and a lot of other people involved with it, it was I think it is sort of meant to be that kind of thing where it's like a band that's very collaborative that also embraces improvisation, where the paint is still wet, you know,

and it's not overtly commercial. But it's also I don't know, and I think it's different than like my other band, The National, which is much more intense kind of in more of like an old family, an old brotherhood or something. This is like very much like a kind of more of a communal thing. Do you have an expanding list of people that you want to bring on boarders almost like working within the same family, almost like Christopher Guest

uses the same actors in his film Is It. Do you kind of want to keep it to the community you have now or do you have a long a list of people that you'd like to to work with in the future on the Big Red Machine projects. I feel like big Grand machinists can be very open to interpretation, like we could easily change the next time we make a record or a project, and I think, I like, I do like the idea that it would evolve and that other people could come into it. I think it's

an interesting concept. You know, it feels both wide open and like kind of intimate at the same time, So I think, but yeah, there's I mean, there's so many people I admire in the world to play music and sing and stuff, so obviously if it's a chance, it is kind of that kind of project where it's it's the sort of thing you can easily invite someone into and maybe have a moment where you make something together, and that's how I really learn and grow as a musician,

So I always kind of welcome that. I was thinking about how cool it would be a tour of this album, almost like a little mini traveling festival, which would probably

be a logistical nightmare. But would you ever do almost like a last Waltz style a couple of shows where you get everybody definitely, And that's that's actually something Justin has brought up quite a bit, and like that, we and almost find we want to find the right places or the right way to do this properly, because we would want to have as many people that are on the record there, and we would want to have a chance to really rehearse it and perform it and document it.

And I think it could be a lot of fun. It's because I sort of imagined this big ram Machina album as like the Last Bolts. Maybe it's because I was finishing it during the pandemic, but it was a little bit like, well, if I never play another song and let's let's go out with a hoot, you know or something. So it was a little bit like that. I mentioned all the voices on there, and I hastened to add one of them is yours. You sing several songs on the album Magnolia The Ghost of Cincinnati. What

led you to take these on? Was it the subject matter? Was it something about the subject matter that made you want to impart that those messages yourself? It was both, like I think part of it was like the song Bracy, which is really it's almost like a love letter to my twin brother for helping me pull out of a tailspin when we were younger. And I think once I wrote that song and the words came in, the melodies came.

And the truth is, whenever I write music, I always something in my head or I'm singing under my breath. And I think it was really Justin who was kind of like pushing me a little like go forth, young son and sing finally, so like at forty five years old, I'm like making my debut is with my voice. But you know, I think it's also I've always been comfortable being more like generating the music and setting a scene for other people, almost like a ventriloquist or something where

I really I see myself. I have an easy time like empathizing with what someone else is singing. Obviously Matt Burning or such a gifted singer and lyricist in the National and people like Justin and Taylor Swift, who I got to work with it. So it's it's not something I see myself like suddenly becoming Mr. Singer guy, but it is nice to do it, and it felt very like natural for you. I mean, I'm not I guess

I'm not a narcissist. Hopefully I'm not a narcissist, so like I wasn't like, yes, you know, but it was I do. I can listen to My Time in the Spotlight. Now I can listen to those songs and really I feel something, you know. I feel they're honest and I feel they're compelling. So yeah, it is rewarding to like be able to do it, especially in the context of all these amazing singers, you know. So it's like it is daunting on some level, but actually I think it works.

That's good. But it helps that Like Justin is harmonizing with me, and you know that that helps. I love the Ghosts of Cincinnati, and I love that you forgave Pete Rose. Where did that song come from? For you? What can you tell me a little bit about the

genesis of that, Yeah, the ghosts. Since he's actually like inspired by a screenplay for a film that hasn't been made yet, but it's called Dandelion, and it's written by a filmmaker Nicole Rigal, who has an amazing film out right now called Holler that's set in eastern Ohio about two siblings that are survived as scrappers and like an industrial wasteland, pulling copper and stuff out of old factories.

But it's a really beautiful film. And in Nichol's had written this screenplay that's about a struggling songwriter in Cincinnati, Ohio who it's kind of at the end of their row and like feels empty and hollow, like a ghost and and kind of you know, someone that's like really at the overextended, overworked, and I just really related to it personally, but also like friends and family that I've lost, or you know, I feel like I've lost, and just I think that's what it's a bad about, wandering around

your hometown feeling like a ghost, and you're looking looking at places you've been and people you know, old friends, and but they can't see you. And it's just this sort of I guess, nostalgic, slightly mournful, but ultimately cathartic song about like feeling like a ghost, you know, and maybe looking for meaning in your past, and which is what a lot of the record is about. It's funny.

I was a screenwriting major in school, and whenever I was stuck on a plot point or a scene, I would go up for a walk and listen to music and it would always reset me. I would somehow either take a mood from the music or a line from the lyric or something, and it would send me in a new direction. Do you do the opposite musically? Do you take musical inspiration from stories that you you hear,

either screenplays or just things that people tell you. Definitely, I feel like I get especially when I watch films.

It could even be like an extremely like whatever, just to feel good movie on a plane or something, but I will get into like a heightened emotional state or pull or lift something accidentally from from it, usually musically, like I remember the National song wast nest Is is like was directly taken from a from a movie without me even knowing, and not even it just inspired by it, but I think that the music was, but I think it.

It often happens that way for me. Or if I'm reading a book and you just get I don't know, you just get into a state of mind and that's when you feel music or feel creative. So it definitely happened. Toy. Do you feel that you get more inspiration overall looking outward or looking inward? It's a good question. I mean, I think I find myself in music for me is a very internal thing where it's almost like my natural

state or something is to be playing music. If you leave me alone in a room, if there if there is an instrument there, I'll like it's like gravity pulls me towards it, and then it's like the music kind of comes. It's like a it's like turning on a faucet or something. And so I guess it's more internal. But I'm not conceptual in the sense of, you know, I'm not thinking outside of myself like I wanted to be like this color and that, you know, this this

sort of thing. I'm much more like actually just searching for the mysterious tonic inside myself. I guess. I guess i'd have to say internal. Is this something that you do every day like some people jog every day or do yoga. Is it a daily practice for you writing? Yeah, I would say, like ever since I was a kid, it's just kind of it's almost its oddly it is. It's kind of like riding a bike, where like I do, I just play. It feels good physically to play, and

I think that's how I got good at instruments. Was just like literally like it's like an exercise. And then then it's only sometimes where there's something that that pops out in your brain or like that you start playing something in this little kernel of something that feels elevated or like that's something, let me like grab it and like try to make something out of it. Usually I'm

just like, we got a twin tinkle. It's like two twins peeing in a toilet or something that that's that's kind of a gross reference, but basically it's like literally like I'm just like, you know, like playing random, random notes, but I have a twin brother that you know that you're gonna make fun of me for this question. But

are you superstitious at all about how it happens? Is there a certain time of day or a certain room you want to sit in, or a certain instrument that you want to use that you really feel you know, is I don't want to say lucky because that's really silly, But you're superstitious about the sort of to me a person who's never written a song before seems like magic because there's a sort of an element of like you want to make sure everything's right to get the muse

there nice you ask that because I'm deeply superstitious, and for me too, it's kind of strangely like if I have a bad uh in the middle and it I can be asleep, but I have to knock on my head three times. So if you if I it's a weird thing, like with my right hand, it's this I'm

sounding like a real weird or now. But like I I if I think like, oh, my friend maybe in trouble, or my daughter's like or something, if I've some thought that is just sort of like you know, not true but it could be true, then I knock on my head. So but with music, I'm the same way, where it's like it's more I would say, it's more like like

if you I like to be intentional. So if I'm gonna sit down and play a shaker on the song on a new song or something, I have to like play it properly begin beginning to end, like as though we're playing music in a room. And if I don't do that, I don't have like a real you know, like the simplest thing a shaker on a song. But I have this thing where I have to kind of like take it really seriously. So in a way like not like this is the most important shaker, just like

kind of because I'm superstitious. If you don't value what you're making, it's not going to be any good or something. And it's the same with like instruments. I when I get a new guitar or a new whatever it is, those instruments like almost write songs for you. It's weird because they have like each instrument is different and you feel this like I don't know, it's like you're you're

finding what's inside of it. I mean, I'm not that sounds like mumbo jumbo, but it is actually like you know, like some of the folklore songs on Taylor's record, some of the music like it was because I had this new guitar, this rubber string rubber bridge guitar that I've gotten from the late fifties, and it just sounded you know, it's that invisible string song. It just the music it just kind of happened, you know. It was like just came out of and I was just playing. It was

like just kind of came out. I probably should have said those earlier. Congratulations on the Crammy major. Faul Paul for that mentioned another earlier. Usually that's all anyway get me to talk about. So that's good getting that sort of accolade and that kind of attention. What does that do to you creatively? Is it liberating to get that sort of affirmation or does it kind of mess with

your head in a certain way. Honestly, it was just fun to see to be together with Layer and Jack and a bunch of the people that worked on the record, and and for Taylor to win her third Album of the Year and to become the first woman to do so. And I just think she really deserved it, and that was special to be there and we had a great time.

It was like kind of like a very very memorable period like hanging out with friends and and she sang Renegade actually when we were there, um in l A. That's when we did that song and for a big, great machine. But I think it doesn't really go to my head because I've been around the block and I know you're really only as good as what you just did, you know. And also that the you know, the media, it's like, no matter what you do, there's everything you

make some people are gonna love it. Hopefully your fans and the listeners like fall in love with music you make, but there's always gonna be like snarky critics that try

to beat you down, even for your best work. And so a lot of times it's for your best work, um, And I think and I see friends go through that over and over and it's kind of like, honestly, it's the thing that bums me out about the music industry is like that you that you have to kind of be like subjected to random criticism from people who might not make songs or really like or have it. They might be pre judging you. And that doesn't happen to

me very often. But it's just kind of like I think, no matter how many awards you win or whatever, you still have to go. You still have to run the gauntlet every time. Um. And it's kind of the part that takes the joy out of it for a lot of people and and for me. But it's like nice, like this conversation is great to talk about the music, talk about what it feels like to make it. That's

what's important. And also like I care about what the songs mean two people, but I don't really care about like awards and all that kind of stuff because you can't like, I mean, you know, I might win more Grammys in my life, or maybe I've already won my Grammys and that's it, you know what I mean. So you can't really get too attached to that kind of stuff. Speaking of Renegade, Taylor tweeted this really wonderful message to you when she shared that song a few weeks ago,

and she thanked you. I want to read it because I want to make sure I get this right, thanking you for ussuring her into your world of creativity where you don't overthink, you just make music. And I wanted to ask you, and this was a question from somebody who overthinks everything, how do you not overthink the music? Like? Is that ever a struggle? How do you just clear the decks of everything and really just I mean not to get twos in, but sort of be in that

moment and not overthink it. I feel like I've just learned it over time that like the best things that I have ever made, I wasn't really it wasn't so much that I was trying hard and overthinking. It was like they came appeared in a you know, they almost felt ever green or effortless, because you know, I was making music just to make it without really thinking what it's for or worrying about, you know, how it would

be perceived or received. And I still as much as like I hate to wake up on the day that an album comes out and read about why good or bad, It's like I still thankfully can be a person that is you know, free I I I in the studio, It's like I'm still connected to the wonder of what it's like to just make stuff and to be almost feel like a kid, Like you should feel like a kid, I think, in the studio making music of your friends, embracing that process without having too much self doubt or

self criticism, because it can be paralyzing, like insecurity and those kinds of things when I just think it's it's not productive. I've learned this from different friends and from me.

Justin is really helpful in that sense, like just make stuff, don't worry about it, and then like at some point see where it falls, you know, And that's kind of also A big rid machine is very much about that, like reconnecting with the feeling of what it's what you first when you first start making music, what that feels like. Just like this a weird electricity of like what we just made a song. Wow, Like this is beautiful, you know.

And as far as like how that song fits into your career or your the context of music history all that kind of stuff that you can't really that's out of your control, you know what I mean. You just gotta make make stuff and and like be an artist to be expressive. That's basically how I think about what is it about certain songs that make them Big Red Machines songs as opposed to national songs or songs for

Justin's album or songs for Taylor's album. Is there something about Big Red Machines songs that set them apart, either musically or emotionally. I feel like there is a feeling there's like an element of like improvisation and kind of like maybe it's just also a meditative quality. At least this album, there's like something that is emotionally cathartic or

soothing about it. But I think to me it is like this element of improvisation or or some they're looser, you know, they're a little bit looser and a little bit more like open to somebody like bouncing around inside of them. A lot of the drumming and a lot of the guitar playing are pretty like impressionistic or something.

You know, there's drum machines which hold it together there, but then you have like lots of different people bouncing off these songs, and I don't know it's at least that's been so far, the two Big Red Machine albums, that has been like part of the feeling. There's like a Big Red Machine sound or something. I can't quite

put my figurite finger on it. But then I would also say that I just make a lot of stuff not really knowing what it is, and eventually I share these I call them sketches because they're like they're in song form and there's a lot of like internal melody and stuff, but they're very open and it can be altered, and it's really just me like developing a founding I built,

you know, like a foundation we can build on. And so they there are kids where like it could be a national song, or or it could be something I shared with Taylor that she wrote to or they could become the song Reese that it might have been a Bony Bear song but instead it was a Big Red Machine song. But like I think I like that blurry nous, you know. I think that's also part of what makes makes it interesting. How is your relationship with with Justin

evolved since what was it two thousand eight? I think for the Dark with the Night compilation has it has it evolved or is it generally stayed pretty similar from the first time you started collaborating. It's definitely evolved. I mean, I think mainly it's like our friendship has grown very strong over many years. I think it's just there's something very relaxed and like I think we have a very strong connection and we care about each other, and they

don't put a lot of pressure on each other. So it's nice in that way because we obviously collaborate on many things, or have collaborated on many things, but it's like only because we feel like it or we want to and it. That can kind of have and flow depending on where you are in life and what you're doing.

And you know, with this album, it was like it started, we did a lot of work together, then I took it and ran with it, and then we came back together did a lot of work and he like kind of goes like that in these different phases, but mainly it's just fun to spend time together, and that's when a lot of things have happened. It's just because we're hanging out. So but yeah, I don't know. I have a huge amount of respect for him as a musician obviously,

and as a human being. He's just lovely, caring, personal. You do beautiful work together. I mean, the songs on this album are so personally. You mentioned brycey Reese Hutch.

I mean, there's just so much of you in there, and and and your life and and the cover is really, I mean, in a lot of ways, such a gut punch to anybody who has endured loss in their family or or or you know, watch their childhood kind of I don't want to say degrade, but there's this anxiety that I feel with each passing year of you know,

you grow up. There's this narrative if you grow up, you leave home, you throw yourself into your life, your career, your new relationships, and then you start to find that that things in your past aren't quite where you left them there. People go, they change, they pass on, and I guess this is sort of a slightly dour version of John Lennon's life. Is what happens when you're busy

making other plans. But I was reminded of this when I saw the album cover, which is a childhood photo of you and your brother and sister with with your grandmother Stella, under the title how long do you think It's gonna last? I want to just ask you, what is the cover are in the title mean to you? What is that expression for you? Because it was very evocative to me, and I want to know if I'm

totally of face and now you're right on target. I mean, I think it is when you're a kid, when you're a child, and I had a nice child, and and like the world is before you've lost your innocence in a way, before you've maybe been corrupted by like the anxiety and uncertainty and you know, things that happened as an adult or pressures that come with like being an adult, you know, seeing you know all the good and bad

things that happened when you're in life. I think that there's like a I'm always I am nostalgic maybe about my childhood and because it was very idyllic, and and I think at some point you lose that sense of innocence and with it you take on a lot of me, and not to say me and my family is still here. Those my brother and sister are still here. But you know,

there have been family traumas. There have been people we've lost, and you know, friends I've lost to depression or you know, marriage is breaking apart or floor is falling out from under from under you to quote that Matt Burning or and blood Buzz. But like, I think it's like I think this album is kind of looking back at my childhood or Justin's or Anus or many of the writers and like kind of like looking for meaning and remedies in your past and like ways to carry it forward.

And so how long do you think it's gonna last? Is it is partly like a childhood or a family or a you know, a winning streak, a losing streak, of creative streak, you know, a marriage, all these things, you know, and then it's also thinking like even my relationship with my brother or something like can we stay this close for the rest of our life? I hope so, But you know, like as you you grow and now

we live on different sides of the ocean. My brother and my sister lived thousands of miles away from me and like, but we grew up so close and say it's just thinking about it. I guess it is a very it's a very personal thought and and and what it means to me is very personal. That was a beautiful tribute to that sentiment and those in your your

family and friends. There was a quote you gave recently where you said, of this album, I was using this project to really try different things and find the connection between my different impulses. I guess my question is did you find the connection? What? What did this album teach you about yourself and the way you make music? Yeah, I feel like I did. I mean I feel like I was able to it is a synthesis or a distillation of like a lot of my musical you know.

I feel like when I listened to the Bigger Machine this album, I think I've realized I made it for myself and I can listen to it. It's like it's like an I can drive down the road and just blast it and it's like a total joy ride. It's weird. It's like, I think that's why it Maybe it means more to me than a lot of things have made in that sense, because it's just like there is a looseness and it goes too many places, but like all overall, just the feeling in it. Yeah, I like this kind

of music. I like the simplicity but also like complexity at the same time of it. And I like aesthetically where it's sitting but it is. I like to take things like taking a new usual beat or an unusual pattern and write a song against it and then see how a friend you know, can carve into that. And that happened over and over and over, and then we were able to develop it into an album. And yeah,

I think it. It feels special to me, you know, and I don't know it's that's the nice thing is like I think a lot of people are feeling that listening to it. But in a way it doesn't matter because that's that's like for me, you know, when I look back on my life as a musician, that will be something that will always be there, you know, as a special thing, which is great. You know. It's like that's also why you why you make art, I think is because like it gives your life meaning or something.

I'm really glad that you enjoyed as much as we all do. That's good to hear just like an audience of one. Yeah, I think not to look too far forward, but I've read that you're working on new songs with Justin now Is. Can you are you able to talk a little bit about those more big red machine tracks

something else? What's what's next for you guys? I mean, honestly, like we he you know, we've both do our own thing and have our own you know, he has he obviously does a ton of work and is and he's prolific and has his own to you, and so do I. But then but yeah, like there are some new ideas that are really I think special that just happened again out of nowhere. I don't, but I think like we

wouldn't actually know what it is for some time. And then also like I've been, you know, starting to think a lot about the national and other things. So I think it's like, you know, no matter what that's. The other thing is like every time you climb that mountain of making something right, as soon as you master it, you're kind of like back at the bottom of the

mountain again, you know what I mean. Then you're like, oh man, you can't stay up there for a little while longer, you know, it's it's like you gotta sometimes it's also important to burn the justice says like you gotta burn the forest down. And that's a bad metaphor right now with all the all the wildfires. But like you know what I mean, Like creatively, I think sometimes you have to like let the field like follow for

a while. And I haven't done that in a while, so maybe I maybe I should do that a bit. I know I felt bad even asking that question. Incredible, but what's that's next? What are you doing now? Like I've well soon for that question, but I just wanted to ask. I heard you and your brother are working on a theatrical production of syran No. How's that going right? How that right? Sounds really cool? It's actually a movie.

It's like it was a theatrical it was an off Broadway show that we even Matt Berninger and Bryce and I and CR investor Mets White worked with Erica Schmidt, this theater director and writer. She wrote the screenplay that it's an ad adaptation of syran BERGK, which actually became it's a major movie now that Joe Wright, the English director, adapted it and directed it and it premiers soon. It's like very soon, but I think it comes out properly

in the winter. And it's a musical, but it's you know, it's a period piece and and Peter Dinklige place Syra No and it's pretty. It's pretty, like like a easy orchestral score, and you know, my brother was able to really like do some amazing work on it in terms of the orchestration. And I think we're really proud of the songs that we wrote. So yeah, it's it's it's beautiful. I hope everybody. Oh man, I can't wait to check it out. Eric, thank you so much for your time

today and your music. It's been such a joy talking to you. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thank Caremon. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Inside the Studio, a production of I Heart Radio. For more episodes of Inside the Studio or other fantastic shows, check out the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Ye