Inside the Studio with Reuben Cohen: Lurssen Mastering Secrets Revealed!

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Inside the Recording Studio. I am Jody Whitesides, and with me as always is Mr. Chris Halsstrom. today we have an extra special guest on our podcast. Who is it, Chris? And with us today we have Ruben Cohen of Lersin Mastering. So welcome to the show Ruben. Awesome. We are excited. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Glad to be with you guys. So we're going to do a little bit of talking about, yeah, about mastering in your career Sure.

and what you do. So hopefully this will be of a lot of interest to our listeners and [ Silence ] Sure. So, it's actually becoming more and more rare because so many people were watching this I'm sure it will be. Perhaps you begin by you describing what you do and a little bit about your career and why we're fortunate enough to have you with us here today. [ Pause ] People wear many hats now more than ever, but we're a mastering house. [ Pause ] We're mastering engineers here.

I'm a mastering engineer, and it's really all I've ever done professionally the whole time. I'm about 16 years in, so that makes me 35, and I started when I was about 18 or 19 at Bye. the mastering lab, which was the first independent mastering studio outside of the labels that Hello Excellency! Hello Excellency! If you feel like you're Commerce Center was ever went out and created a business.

whether you want to take advantage of this Doug Sacks in the late 60s created the mastering lab and really evolved the foundation of what tell Secretary alwaysfire you can subscribe to my channel absolutely [ Pause ] mastering became and certainly what it was back then. I can talk a little bit about that. But essentially what mastering is, is the final process in the [ Pause ]

recording process. It happens right after mixing. I'll digress. When a traditional rock record, hypothetically, you're recording all your individual elements within the mix, your bass, drums, guitar, vocals, and you're tracking everything. You're recording everything and in the mixing stage, it happens after Thanks for watching, Case Center you you that. You are weaving all those elements together to create this beautiful blend.

you and then a mastering engineer takes that beautiful blend, you you let's say it's in stereo, generally it is, you even can talk a whole lot about that, [ Silence ] (no audio) but traditionally it's in stereo these days. [silence] And a mastering engineer will process those stereo channels left and right and optimize them further to create the end result.

And that can mean a whole lot of different things, but generally to really water it down, it means ultimate connection to the music, whatever you need to do to create the most connective end result possible from the artist to the listener. and then knowing when to step away and not do anything further. So that is really what it is. Some people describe it as Photoshop to audio. Interesting. It can be thought of that way. [Silence]

Some people just talk about it as global processing and audio, finalizing. Interesting. And for me, it is all of those things, but it really is ultimate connection with the artist and the listener. [ Pause ] Interesting. I'm glad you sort of expanded on that because one of the things that I wanted to bring up, and I think today it's, people have a little bit of a misconception, in my opinion, of what mastering is. Excelsior. (door slams) [ Pause ] These are all really interesting things.

Because I think in the age of the DAW that we tend to live in here, [ Pause ] [ Silence ] It seems like some people are just on mastering when you're just slapping an L1 on your master bus, right? [ Pause ] And just kind of cranking the snot out of it. So when you describe what you do, how much do you feel like that? [ Pause ]

Role has changed today From well even from obviously from when you started right we've gone through the loudness wars and we've done all of this kind of thing And you kind of hinted at surround and at most type of thing in there, but but we're traditionally dealing with >> Thank you. stereo information here. But what would you say to somebody that just think, (silence) "Oh, I'm just gonna master my own track."

And what they're really doing is, (silence) like is that like putting an L1 or an L3 on the master buzz and how that's not really what mastering does. (silence) And I think does give the whole idea of mastering (silence) it to service because it's a lot more than that. It can be, but in order to go Would you agree to that? that far down the rabbit hole, you kind of have to be doing it for such a long time and experience so many different mixes and the position of the mixing engineer Right.

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engineer mastering their own material, they're only seeing what they're working on and they're not objective to it. And I can even go further down the road of their process in and of itself has changed In the casing. so much even the last 10 years in terms of blurring the processes between mixing and mastering. So much of my job is figuring out how the sausage was made before it even shows up to us. [LAUGHTER] In other words, are you mixing into that L2 or that limiter? [ Pause ]

(silence) (silence) Is that part of your mix? have you been monitoring and making all of your musical balance decisions while monitoring through that limiter? Or are you mixing as you do, and then you throw it on only for your artist completely independent of your mix balances? That alone has so much to do with how we even begin when we receive mixes. But mastering always gets the award for the most misunderstood process. It's very esoteric.

(laughs) It requires you sitting in front of, (laughing) [ Pause ] [ Silence ] or just being in this position for many, many years, hopefully learning from somebody that's been doing it [ Pause ] for many, many years that can really help you go very far down the road without getting in your own way. Thank you. Because I feel like I'm already standing [ Pause ] on the shoulders of giants. Gavin was feeling like he was standing on the shoulders of giants because he got to learn from Doug.

And Doug, you know, decades of trial and error [ Pause ] and trying this versus that and best practices were developed based off that. So it's almost such a advantage to just start from that point. And that's where Gavin started. And of course, technology and the way that we even So you started, you went to MI and both Chris and I also attended MI at very different times and just music has changed all through that and evolved.

So all of Doug's years, all of Gavin's years, and then I started in 2005 just mastering, I got to stand on those combined shoulders, allows me to really, really just focus on from here forward. (silence) Okay, yeah. Guitar and keyboards, yeah. Uh-huh, uh-huh. and for dairy. I'm assuming different reasons. I went for guitar. went for guitars, keyboards. You went, what did you go to MI for? Did you go for recording Right. Funny enough, I was also a guitar. or did you do something else? Okay.

I started out in GIT and then transferred from GIT over to RIT, which was the recording Hello. program and I figured at the time that I could actually have the best of both worlds, this (silence) Right. was when I was 18, because I could do all of the open counseling guitar clinic workshops Okay. outside of the curriculum. You kind of show up, it's volunteer based. (silence) And then I could have my core curriculum in the recording major, so I kind of found that So, what was that road for you?

that was the best path for me. That gave me the foundation, just the fundamentals of the basic concepts and the ideas, but really my schooling felt like it started at the Mastering Lab when I started my internship in 2005 and And you started with Gavin. then about a year after that we started Lursen Mastering in 2006. Yeah. Yeah, yes. Yes. Because I know a very few people and the might say more about me than it does about anything Yes.

but very few people that sort of had the intention of going into mastering. What was that decision skip a process for you? Was it something that you sort of fell into or was it something that you had a goal to sort of focus primarily on mastering? It started as something that I fell into and then it turned into something that I had more of a goal or at least it was seduced by it along the way. Because I think it's one of those things where especially in that time, this is at the same Sure.

time where the Pro Tools M box was just beginning to enter the home, you know, so so much was Much (silence) changing. Mastering tools, they were just beginning to digital mastering tools for people working Sure. Thank you. (no audio) Thank you. inside the box were just starting to be developed. The idea of doing mastering by yourself was very, Thank you. Sure. [ Silence ] very just unheard of and very discouraged. Certainly, you know, you had to go to a place. Sure.

So understanding mastering further than just that wasn't available to us. We could maybe go to [ Pause ] [ Pause ] (silence) a mixed magazine and read some articles or some interviews, but nobody could experience this until you were in a studio. So the idea of even beginning to understand what mastering was or having a calling towards it just didn't exist. You kind of had to hang out and see if you resonated with it. And that's what it was for me. I just knew that I wanted to be in the studio.

That's a good way of putting in a good seduction. I was fascinated by it. I made it my business to be the first person there and the last person to leave every day, not because I was trying to prove myself to anybody or anything like that, but just I just wanted to be there. Right I just wanted to eat it all up. And through that I became more and more fascinated with it and found myself in it over the years. Sure sure yeah But it's not a thing that just happens overnight.

This is a years and years and years long seduction. You know. Yeah. Right did you ever have though before you went into that did you have the idea of you mentioned you playing guitar to sort of be [silence] Yeah. We'll keep it to weather every week and put things in the wash places every weekend. The the guitar playing artist and sort of like mix your own stuff or was it?

Always looking a little bit further down the road of going into the master anything that you saw that you kind of fell into but Sure Yeah, I knew I wanted to be in music in some way. So I have a question for you here. You come out of school, you start lersing mastering Originally, probably, as anybody does, they wanted to maybe be a rock star, producer of some sort, and it really just fell into place that I just found that to be my calling Yeah, I hear you very cool

along the way. It wasn't really planned, it just, I just ended up gravitating towards it through the work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [ Pause ] Oh. [ Pause ] with Gavin. How long after that start happens that you get hired to work on happy one of the biggest songs and so long it's ridiculous by Pharrell. How did that happen? ( ( ( ) It's a long road of peaks and valleys and getting gigs and keeping confidence and all Who are you? [ Silence ] the ups and downs.

I think most of these stories happen kind of by accident a lot of the time. I was just working on a lot of records. It didn't start out like I had, there was never one first record. I was assisting, I was assisting and you kind of blur into it and all of a sudden you find Okay. yourself working on records by yourself. And I was working on a lot of film soundtracks, film and TV soundtracks for NBC Universal I did the first Despicable Me movie and the second Despicable movie soundtrack.

Pharrell was very much involved. He had a lot of songs on these soundtracks and one of them was happy. Right. Nice. And it was really just part of it. As soon as I heard it, I knew it was special. I remember actually Gavin's stepdaughter in the other room dancing and she was probably four years old at the time. And I thought, this is working, you know? That's a good sign. Yeah, yeah. And it actually had a delayed, it kind of went to radio Sure.

and it wasn't until the music video was released until it really, really exploded online and became this huge sensation and biggest song of the year of 2013. So, I don't know, to come back to, you know, that wasn't, I'd worked on big songs before that as well, but I think that's definitely been the biggest song 'cause it was the biggest song of that year, 2013, yeah. Whatever you're. Thank you.

How would you say, you know, I'm jumping all over the place here a little bit, but the process of mastering, Sure. [ Silence ] Yeah. because you've done a lot of like soundtrack stuff as well, like for, you know, let's just move, but HBO and the type of thing. [ Pause ] And how different is that process for you where you're mastering, let's say an album, like a pop album or something in that vein, versus the work on the soundtrack. Is that drastically different for you?

Are there different things that you have to keep in mind when you're thinking, I'm assuming, Thank you. like dynamic range, that type of thing, frequency spectrum? Or do you find that it's relatively similar? Thank you. [ Silence ] It's similar in the sense that the objective and the discipline is the same. - The thought process is the same. I have to keep kind of right in Grace wasn't here. The way we approach the music is consistent, but the music is not.

The music is whatever it ends up being, and it's its own signature thumbprint every day. So one of the biggest things, regardless of genre or arrangement, is dynamic range. I sides me How far something reaches. How dense is something? And also a musical sixth sense develops. [ Silence ] [ Pause ] You know, that is beyond words. It's kind of an internal understanding and your intuition is developed through this because [ Pause ] you hear every type of mix or any way a mix can come together.

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Sometimes it's more virtual, sometimes it's very aggressive, sometimes very dense pop arrangement, EDM very aggressively compressed in the elements themselves, also sometimes [ Pause ] compressed on the bus. That could be on one side of the spectrum in terms of ultra dense hyped thing. . [ Pause ]

And then you can have a very naturally open recording, recorded orchestral arrangement, you you (Applause) orchestra with you're hearing the room, you're hearing the way all of the elements are coming you . . you together within the hall itself, where it's being recorded, must be approached much differently yet [ Pause ] you you you

the intent is the same. You're creating ultimate connection. So how far to push something, how far (Applause) [ Silence ] [ Pause ] [ Pause ] to dynamically process something, or how far to not dynamically process something has everything (Applause) to do with our process. And then with that EQing as part of that. So EQ has a shape to kind of go (no audio) [ Pause ] go a little further, maybe a 12 song album, doesn't matter the genre, shows up on our desk one day.

We don't even know, it can be pop, but that can mean a super hyped thing or it can be more of a relaxed open thing. It all exists. You put it on, you listen to the mixes, you get a sense of what it is, [ Pause ] and the music does all the talking. It does most of the communicating. You wanna be able to catch that musical wave [ Silence ] and see it through to the end.

(chuckles) A good mastering engineer will immediately have [Silence] that sense of where something can exist in its finished form. And then they'll start putting things up on the board. We work analog, so either they're putting something up on their computer screen or they're working analog, [SOUND] which we still do and like to, and I can talk about that too.

But as you start massaging things into place, I'd say within the first, at least for us, maybe 90% of getting there happens rather quickly. Thank you. And the last 10% is where most of the time takes fine tuning, [ Silence ] really, really narrowing in on where you want everything to sit, balance-wise. And the mix tells you how far, or what to do. And then along the way, as you start putting things on the board, that informs your decisions even further.

You know, you kind of test things, you push things a little too far, you feel the resistance, you pull it back, you feel it expand, you fine tune, like kind of, you know, when you're making that fine point with the magnifying glass, you're kind of tilting Sure. Sure, yeah. in all directions until it creates this little pinpoint. That's kind of a way to think about it in a way in terms of balancing. I'm sure it's the same way with mixing.

Sure. Yeah. The reason being is that everything that you do when you're working globally affects everything else. It's not like you can just independently affect one thing and nothing else has changed. Even if you do something like a little bit of multi-band hypothetically, a little sliver of something, that affects everything else. So having this global sense.

It's not like you can just DS a vocal in the middle of a stereo mix and have it not affect Yeah, so you have to think a little bit more, everything else. Thank you. I suppose, multifaceted, if you will, [BLANK_AUDIO] and develop the sensibility to fight chess [ Silence ] instead of checkers. Doing five moves to create a end result that actually feels less processed [LAUGH] I guess it depends on who the mixing engineer is. than maybe one move would do in a different sense.

In other words, what it really comes down to is creating this end result that just feels ultimately connected. So a lot of times people think that mastering is this corrective process. In other words, we have this mindset of putting up a mix and thinking, okay, what's wrong with this?

And if I can figure out, [LAUGHTER] if I can just fix all the, yeah, [ Pause ] [LAUGHS] or if I can just fix all the wrongness of it, [ Silence ] then it'll be right enough to not do anything else, [ Pause ] which is very limiting actually. That's often the understanding of mastering, [ Pause ] it's a corrective process only. Versus, let's hear this mix, now in our mind's eye let's project where this could live in its most optimum place, and let's take it there.

And that could mean actually going well outside of where it currently is, and so you can arrive at that place, or it can mean a fraction of nothing, and it's more just feel. (laughs) And a good mastering engineer will be able to determine That's an important mindset that you're describing there, how much or how little to inject themselves, and what is net positive versus not so much.

Yeah. 'Cause you can end up getting happy and realize that you've actually been off the mark and come back the next day and completely beat yourself Yeah. and really take it to a much better place. And that's as much as part of the process as anything else, developing that internal sense of where something Yeah. is really, really feeling like it really hits all the marks. So much of that is just... [Silence] though, because a lot of people do think that mastering is that, Thank you.

oh, mastering is where they're going to set that level. They're going to lap all the tops off and make it loud. And it's just going to correct all the problems that the mix already had. It's a very different mindset and it's a good mindset. I like that. Yeah. There's ways around it. In other words, if there's something wrong with your, not wrong, if there's something out of balance, not quite gelling with your mix, maybe it's got too much bottom end.

I mean, I'm going to be very, very simple here. Right. Maybe this is the bottom end. mixed in a place where the environment where the mixing engineer thought that they had their room was telling them to add more bottom than they really should be. And it sounds balanced in their room. We put it up here. Everything is balanced, but it's also globally not balanced. In other words, if I do one big stroke, I'm Right. >>>

essentially correcting for their room versus their mix. Now the first thing, so [ Silence ] [ Pause ] what I'm hearing is off is actually I'm hearing their room, not their musical decisions. Now the obvious thing to do there would be to start cutting away [ Pause ] way bottom, right? But a good mastering engineer will size up all of everything [ Pause ] [ Silence ] that's going on there in the arrangement, the relationship of the elements within

the arrangement, and it could be that they actually do the opposite. They end [ Silence ] up opening up the top. But maybe based off what's happening in the arrangement, when they open up the top, it exposes the vocal in a way that's not [ Pause ]

so flattering. So maybe you got to do maybe a little bit of high frequency [ Pause ] limiting on that vocal, and now as you're opening up the top, that's pushing back [ Silence ] against you, and that's influencing you in real time to shape the bottom a [Silence] little differently according to what's coming out of the speakers.

And this is mastering, you know, kind of talking conceptually, but you're dealing with all of these things, all of these processes that are interrelating, all as one to create this [Silence] process that actually hopefully feels very non-processed and very musical and natural, Yeah. if that's what you're trying to bring. Other times we'll throw a mix through some saturator and really get dirty and gritty (laughs) So when you say you're running through something because that was the intent.

But even that feels natural and musical when we do that based off what was presented to us. So I can just go ramble on about all these different scenarios. But at the end of the day, we were always trying to bring that, in other words, we're bringing that connectivity, whatever that means for whatever's brought to us. [ Pause ]

like a saturator, that almost instantaneously, I think a lot of people are gonna listen to say, oh, that just means run some sort of distortion or saturation plug on my DAW. Yeah. but you mentioned analog. Yeah. So how are you doing that analog wise? Well, there's so many ways you can do it. Mm-hmm. You can have a little bit of tube saturation and that can be just a little bit of, I don't know, I think of it as like peach fuzz. It's just a little bit of that, we know it as tube saturation.

Thanks for your question. [ Pause ] Or you can go really heavy-handed and go through, I like to use this Overstair MAS harmonic enhancer Hmm. which really creates a lot of character. Hmm. And really, it's a kind of a way, at least the way I use it is to get a whole lot of hype without compressing. Because it's a way of compressing without anything moving. Okay. It's like a densifier and it's an expander. It's kind of like expands outward as it pushes back at the same time.

And so I'll use that for various scenarios. A lot of times, and I could talk a whole lot about this, I use it when somebody mixes into Do it. heavy bus processing, but they're not actually happy with their heavy bus processing because Do it. (silence) [ Pause ] it feels very processed. Yet they found their balances because they mixed into it. So they're kind of married to that. And if they take it off or lessen it or back it off to any degree, their mix kind of spreads out and falls apart.

This is actually not a good scenario to be in, [laughs] but it is a scenario that we find ourselves (laughs) dealing with quite often based off (sniffles) the way people make records these days, [ Silence ] kind of mixing and mastering at the same time.

So I find that a lot of times if, sometimes if somebody mixes heavy into something on the bus and then removes it or lessens it, I can re-slam it with this so that ends up kind of putting the car in reverse and goes around into a different lane and ends up musically being something that's the best way to go about handling this particular scenario. Just for the record, this is actually, in many ways, you [ Silence ] you not the best way.

That is already introducing a little bit of compromise, you even though we might end up with something really great. you . And I could talk a whole lot about this, [ Silence ] 'cause it's something that happens quite a lot. Thank you. In other words, people mixing into a whole lot of bus processing, even though they're not happy doing it, removing it, making a disconnect from the order of events, >> Great. and then going around and having me re-slam it.

It can be done and we do do it, >> Right. and a lot of people are put in that position and in our position. It's never the best way, but it can be a way if that's the best way available to you. The best way I find is to mix just the way Let's bring up the example of Metallica. Thank you. Thank you. Excuse me. that you wanna mix, and without any type of compromises, in other words, not having to force anything, Thank you. just mix musically the best way that you're able to do it, Thank you.

hand that to a mastering engineer with no change at all, have them master it from that place, Thank you. Thank you. No altering it for a mastering engineer based off how you mixed a straight shot mix master. That always is the best way Thank you for coming. You [Silence] Uh-huh And they had that, I apparently the mixes were slammed already to the hilt where there Uh-huh was no room left to do the mastery job.

So to speak, is that still a recommendation or would you say, Hey, no, maybe you guys The whole idea and I and I work I work a lot on on that band ought to back this off before you give it to us. I'm not so unfamiliar with that, but I won't talk about that particular scenario. Sure. But I'll talk about this scenario in general. [Silence] When somebody pushes something too far, Cool.

it usually has to do with somebody, okay, well, when you push something too far on a bus, You the bus can be a crutch. It can give you that instant gratification >> Yes. 'cause it's just squeezing everything for you, meaning you don't have to squeeze everything up into that point as much 'cause it's doing it all for you, and it's usually a way to get pretty far with less amount of time. That's what I find.

I also find that when people do that, they feel like they can remove that and have me go around and do it better than they did it. I always find that when you do that, that introduces a level of compromise [ Pause ] because of what I just said. So there is some shortcomings around that. >> Yes. That being said, there's a lot of people [ Pause ] that mix heavy into bus processing and they really know what they're doing. And it's very, very musical and they've got that down. >> Right.

And they're kind of mixing and a kind of mastering and mixing at the same time to some degree. And at least conceptually because they're leaning so heavy onto that bus. The best case scenario is to use that for mastering. I found and not alter that and maybe back off the limiter because that is musically baked in dynamically. The relationships of the elements within the mix Sure. is all as the mixer heard it. And if you remove a limiter at that point, you're skewing those relationships.

And then you're kind of re-putting them back together Good afternoon everybody. (silence) Good afternoon. [ Silence ] An with some extra character and some extra whatever we bring as all together. It's like I said, it can work, but it's always not as good as the straight shot situation. And people are at a disadvantage because this is what happened. I saw this maybe 10 years ago.

Mixing engineers would mix the way they mixed and they wouldn't be worried about level, but they were worried about keeping their artist happy to keep the gig. And so they'd mix it and then they'd throw on a limiter just for their artist, right? Just to get it up to level to kind of simulate - Right. (silence) what mastering was gonna do. But it wasn't their mix. [ Silence ] [Silence] Sometimes the artist would actually never hear their actual mix.

They'd hear their mix with a little bit of limiting on top of that. And so when it came time for the date of mastering, (silence) all they had to do was remove the limiter, They were back to their mix. We take their mix just as they mixed it, . master it from that point, beat their reference, [ Pause ] 'cause it's pretty easy to beat 'cause we're specialists in this process. [ Silence ]

And what they had was just a level limiter, so we can introduce all this musicality and everything that people know us to bring. And that worked. So that spread around the industry and everybody said, "Oh, when it comes to mastering, remove your limiter. Why would you want that limiter there?" [LAUGHTER] They're gonna be able to re-limit it in a better way. Now, here's where it got confusing. [BLANK_AUDIO] if you're mixing into the limiter and you remove it, >> Right.

it's not the same situation at all. And not enough people talk about this. 'Cause all of your musical decisions were based [ Pause ] in the mixing stage, were based off what that limiter was doing. you And you're relating musically you I'm not sure what to do with this. while monitoring through that limiter. Thank you. So if you remove it, you're actually taking a departure.

You're not actually giving the mastering engineer something better, unless you've mixed into a place of where that limiter is not really serving the music and it's actually feeling pretty processed. 'cause it's so easy to keep pushing up your elements against this limiter that's in a static place. You just wanna push up, push up, push up. And you can look on the screen and say, "Oh, well that limiter is only doing a DB of work."

It's not actually, all of that level that you're pushing up (laughs) [ Pause ] [ Silence ] into that DB of work is doing a lot more than you think. So if you hit bypass on that limiter, you're really taking a departure from your mix. And that can show up as X. It can show up and it can work out nine times at a 10. And then that one time, based off how that individual mixed into that limiter or something more than a limiter can totally take a departure and not work.

And this is something that's very much not understood. Only mastering engineers really understand this (silence) 'cause we're in this chair every day. [ Silence ] So we see it, we see everybody. [ Pause ] And that's just something that I've noticed. So what I try to preach out there and I have these conversations quite a bit Thank you. about mixing into bus processing is . as you're mixing into bus processing, know that you're getting more and more married to that. >> Thank you.

(Applause) And that is something that you're working up musically to bypass that before mastering, [ Pause ] just be aware that that's what's gonna happen. If you do that, you're gonna alter your balances. And one solution that can work for some people is to mix as they mix and not worry about level. And do it the old way is a good solution. [ Silence ] If you want the ultimate, if you're gonna be using a mastering engineer, mix as you normally would mix, throw on a limiter just for your artist.

But if your artist has notes, don't address the notes with the limiter on it. Take the limiter back off, address the notes, throw it back on just the way you had it, [BLANK_AUDIO] make sure the notes hold, that way when it comes to time for mastering, you can take off this limiter, which it sounds, most people don't want on there for us anyway. And we're really working from something that they did But it, yeah, cuz it is, I mean, it's a little bit of almost like, without any departure.

This is kind of complicated stuff. Well, it makes good sense though. It's funny, I talk to a lot of people and I have to talk about it maybe three or four times before they really get it. 'Cause it's, yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. [ Pause ] Thank you. slower. sh I can compare it to my, it's almost like a dumb comparison.

sh (silence) But when you're talking about demoitis, [ Silence ] you get so married to a certain sound of the song where it's just like you've just thrown shit up and just to have the song down, right? And then when you start actually mixing it, it's like, oh, it sounds odd. Now you're describing to me what I think is very much the same way. You get used to a certain sound because you got a limiter on your master bus. [ Pause ]

And then when you actually remove that, and like you said, everything that's been pushed up against it now sits differently in the mix. [ Silence ] So we have to be careful and I think knowing why you're doing something as well is of a vital importance, right? It's one thing to just wanna make something loud and it's all loud and crunchy but it's not necessarily a true representation of what your mix really sounds like. And then I think you get yourself into trouble that way.

it is your mix that becomes your mix. Yeah. Yeah. [ Silence ] And it's not even so much about getting used to something and then having to get used to something else while you've been kind of in this demo-itis place. All of your decisions along the way have painted to this canvas. In other words, if you didn't have that on there to begin with, or you had something different,

Yeah, nobody. It is very, very interesting. So, yeah, nobody. So, it's interesting. I'm you would have made different decisions to paint to that canvas. So it's all about how it influences the music balancer, the mixer in real time along the way as it happens step by step. And if you are painting on that canvas It is very interesting and we'll jump right back on this after a word from our sponsors. and then you switch the angle or the canvas itself, you're musically taking that departure.

So anyway, I can, yeah, it's something that I, yeah. Yeah. (silence) [Silence] - Destino, yeah. And we're back. We're going to continue talking with Reuben here. I want to bring up something that we kind of glossed over. I don't know where in your timeline you won the Grammy for distinto. And did I say that correctly? This deep dog. Okay. I think so. (laughs) Okay. Wow. [ Pause ] Oh, well, that was what? 2010, I think? So it was like 11 years ago now. Yeah, yeah. Oh, it was pretty surreal.

And how'd that feel to win a Grammy? Right. Right. I was really young. I think it was 23. It was actually, I'm glad it happened early on because it's a fun show, but then it kind of just goes back to your daily work after it's, you know, it's good for your parents' bragging rights, you know? Right. [ Laughter ] And it's good for business, you know, it gives some extra confidence, it shows that. .

But it's funny because we work on so many great records [ Pause ] that don't see the light of day, (audio cuts out) that are completely eligible for all of the praise . and accolades. Okay, so here's another odd question. [ Pause ] It's good for business, it's all those things, but for me, personally, it's just about working on music. Every day, it's working with people, being in the ability to create something really great and continually surprise yourself.

It's all of those things that really drive me forward, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it was. Sometimes with reissue work, they will date the I looked up some of the credits that you have and then on a particular website that's supposed to be the be all end all of music credits on recordings, It has listed you and I'm wondering if there's another Reuben Cohen who is a mastering engineer [ Pause ] because apparently there was a mastering engineer that mastered the jellyfish stuff.

And I'm assuming that wasn't you. Oh, it was you. Oh. original date of when it was originally released. So yes, yes, those records are so Oh, yeah, we actually dedicated a whole episode to that and we still get people that will special, aren't they? Those two records? Oh, really? [ Pause ] like comment on the episode saying, "Oh my God, somebody actually referenced this album. (inaudible) It's like my favorite thing ever." [ Pause ] And of course it is two of my favorite records ever.

And I have pretty much everything ever released [ Pause ] by Jellyfish and members thereof, Uh-huh. Okay, we did a lot of, I think, including Imperial drag demos. So. (lively music) this was probably about 10 years ago. For the four box set, Gavin and I both worked on these. There was some rare demos and radio performances and stuff like that. We did all of that. I'm trying to remember now. oreo wow. I don't know how it was released now. It was a while back.

But I know we remastered both those albums at 192. I think we just added another hour to the podcast here because Jodie's gonna pick your Yep, and there was a lot of live stuff So, okay. that went along with that too, around those years. I'm not sure how it was released, but yeah. Hold on. Yeah, I got to pick your brain on this because I do know that Roger and Andy Amazing productions. (laughs) brain out. Oh, really? (laughs) [LAUGHTER] [BLANK_AUDIO] [ Pause ]

recorded some of that stuff digitally speaking. So usually they say whatever your original sample rate is, if you go higher than that, it's really not helping you. But you just Could be, could be. said you went and did that at 192. And I'm assuming at the time they recorded those in the 90s, you're probably talking 44.1 16 bit. Okay. I think we got 192 digital files to work from, how those were derived, I don't know. but it definitely didn't sound all digital, >> Sure. >> Thank you.

it sounded very analog. [ Pause ] So it could be a mixture of the two, you know? Yes, there's no reason to up-sample. You're only gonna negatively affect something Okay. just by going through the process of sample rate converging, [ Pause ] anything from anything else. I don't like sample rate conversion, I try to avoid it as much as possible.

In fact, one of the big benefits [ Pause ] of working analog and mastering is you can completely not have to go through sample rate conversion, 'cause we have an analog process between us. Okay. [ Pause ] So you can play back at whatever sample rate on your playback side, convert it from digital to analog, And then on the back end, on the capture side, you can record in it whatever sample rate you want. So for instance, we do a lot of reissue work.

We talked about Metallica, maybe about, I don't know, four or five years ago now. I redid Injustice for All from the original analog tapes. And we mastered it twice. Okay. We mastered it for vinyl, right off the analog tapes through the console to 96. [ Pause ] And that was for vinyl. And then separately, directly to 44 for all of the platforms and including the CD release.

So no sample rate conversion at all, just straight shot in, captured at whatever the resolution was needed for the master deliverable. Hmm. Uh-huh. Yes. That brings up a question for me in my mind because I have talked to another mastering . [ Pause ] engineer here who works down on the Sony lot. (Applause) And he does one master for all. [ Pause ]

And you're talking about a master for vinyl, a master for digital, etc. [BLANK_AUDIO] [ Pause ] [ Pause ] [ Pause ] Do you prefer doing different masters because of the format that it's going to? Or how does that work for you guys? So in terms of balance, in terms of musical balance decisions, [ Pause ] Mm hmm. we find that if you have a good cutter, those musical balance decisions will You're welcome.

translate no matter if it's coming off vinyl or if it's coming off CD or the streaming platforms. The musical intent, the balances themselves, is very much all about the musicality and it'll translate. And it's something actually that Doug Sacks would preach. Something that he would say, One master for all is what you're saying. never EQ for a format is what he used to say, Ah, okay. which kind of is another way of just saying the same thing. Thank you. [ Pause ]

In other words, bringing your best musicality, Thank you. bringing your balance, your balances, that will translate. [ Silence ] Now, if you take a mix and you process it outside . . of where the mix kind of wants to be [ Pause ] or was intended by the mixer, and you push something further, there's no reason to do that, first off, you know? [ Pause ] Especially now.

So when we come up with something in a finished form and we say this is deemed as done and everybody approves, [ Silence ] that's gonna translate pretty darn well. But if you go outside of that and you try to make something, force something outside and push it to a place of where maybe it sounds like another album that was maybe mixed for that [ Silence ] in terms of hype, and you go to vinyl, it's usually not going to translate very well.

it's gonna feel like you're hearing the processing before the music. And that's something that we always try to avoid. So as long as you are approaching this process (Silence) [ Pause ] from a very natural and holistic place, even if you end up with something that's very digital and hyped because of the way the mix is, maybe an EDM song, [ Pause ] the intent of the mastering engineer is to bring that. [ Pause ] Usually it's gonna translate without any issue.

And in fact, the work kind of speaks for itself [ Pause ] because I mean, how many records have we done at this point? [ Pause ] Right. It's tens of thousands or something like that. And we approach every single one of them with that. [ Pause ] that intention and they all sound great out there. We've never had one issue like that. So you can EQ one in terms of your balances . (no audio) and it'll translate. [ Pause ]

Now, some projects, it's very common and very accepted to master to high res 9624 hypothetically Okay. . and have all of your individual releases . be derived from that big file. . That is generally how things work. [ Pause ] That is very much accepted around the industry. And if you're working digitally, that's really all you can do [ Pause ] 'cause you're mastering digitally. Maybe your mix is at 96, you're mastering digitally, Okay.

and you go through sample rate conversion on the backend to 44, whatever is needed for all the various releases. One benefit that can be realized if you have to master something twice when you're dealing with analog is to capture it twice and go through all the editing twice. And all of the special edits that might, So your analog board must have some sort of automation to it. you have to make two identical masters from two different things, one high-res, one lower-res.

And not all projects call for that (Applause) because it's double the mastering [ Pause ] in terms of their budgets and timeline, But it's something that can be done if you're working analog and sometimes [ Pause ] some projects allow for that. No, there's no automation on the board. [ Pause ] Is that correct? to be able to do that or no? Okay. [no audio] All the automation that we do is by hand. So we'll be writing knobs musically from section to section. [no audio] .

But what we would do is literally just set the capture interface to whatever . . sample rate and bit depth you want to capture at. [Silence] It's just a separate setup. So you don't have to automate that. So you run more than one interface at the same time to you just set it that way and know it would be two separate sittings. capture those tools. Crowd. Hmm. In other words, generally the way that would work is we'd send out the 96K on one day. God. Maybe there'd be some back and forth.

Maybe there's a mix update. Maybe there's a mastering note. Maybe there's whatever it could be. We get a final approved 96K version. We have all our notes documented. And then on a separate date, we just recall everything and print it at 44. So it wouldn't be a two computer recording. Good. We're getting into the weeds here with a lot of super interesting stuff here. And I just Yeah. Right. Okay. We actually have set up for that in the past.

This is not so common that we do two captures for one project, but it is possible. We have the ability to do that too. Yeah. Dott Zhong Sure, yeah. wanted to really make a point here about what it does to have a quality person do your mastering, [BLANK_AUDIO] as opposed to a lot of these without naming any names services that that are online now where you contribution forever. Right, right.

just oh upload your track for and we're mastered for five bucks right next time you're thinking [BLANK_AUDIO] about mastering your song keep that in mind okay so it does make a difference i don't want to Were just a couple seconds shit on anybody here but there obviously is a huge difference when you have a person start. Yeah, and it's not to say that AI mastering is certainly a solution for a lot of situations. sitting in front of the board and making all these human decisions to kind of

make the best out of the music of where it can be, right? So... Thank you. If somebody doesn't have the time or budget to get something up to essentially where something [no audio] [no audio] Definitely no, [no audio] kind of needs to live, something like that could be very useful. [no audio] because carriage. What we do is very much a human process. It's the same way a musician plays an instrument. There's something beyond even the musician in terms of understanding.

t Mhm. you It has to do with intuition that's beyond words or really it's just more of an internal you you understanding in what you can bring. you It's very, very complicated and complex and very much a musical process. you you So that's what we bring in this. you I don't know that a machine can ever do what a human could do in that way, but it's only you (no audio) (silence) (silence) getting better and we are very much interested in that world too.

(silence) developed software, it's not AI software but it's mastering software that's very (silence) much developed off our go-to ways about processing audio. It's a plug-in called (silence) the LMC by IK Multimedia and it was kind of the idea behind that tool was to kind of inform the user and there is some AI in there in a sense because as you work

with it, it works with you to make sure that you don't roll a gutter ball. You know it kind of keeps you on the straight and narrow and it allows you to [silence] (silence) to create something that's pretty darn great fairly easily because it's kind of like Instagram to audio. (silence) (chuckles) You know, you try to color correct it, [laughs] you you know, it's very intuitive.

You know, I could teach my grandmother how to do that all following a with very little, you know, technical knowledge [BLANK_AUDIO] and she could probably get it looking pretty good. That's what this tool does too. short call. So I still feel that to really get something great, And you do need a human being to be steering the ship a little bit, Right, yeah, yeah. Brick but that's kind of a, that tool is something that kind of does update.

a little bit of both because there's a lot of what we bring underneath the hood. So as soon as you push up into it, you're kind of getting what we would bring to some degree just by default. You don't even have to understand it. So I have one more question here, Jordi, I'd like to get in. It happens. [no speech detected] Well, I'm still thinking about it. (mumbling) Three. Obviously, you generally work with a certain level of clientele, shall we say? [ Pause ]

So I'm assuming you're used to getting a certain standard of mixes that when you come in. Project But what would you say that is the most common issue, shall we say, [BLANK_AUDIO] when you get mixes from perhaps not the top level guys that you have to master? What are the common issues that you find that yourself might have to correct for or perhaps Sure, sure. even go back to the mixed engineering go, "Hey, you know what? You'd be better off to adjust this before we try to get to mastering."

update. That type of thing. Well, by the way, we work on big projects with a lot of marketing and So, yeah. and awareness around them, but we work on a lot of projects that are independently done, that don't have the marketing or awareness around them. Yeah And we're not alone, most mastering houses, ac more music is being made now than ever before. And most of the music doesn't have the marketing behind it, Have you solved that? . . yet there's so much of it.

So that is the state of the mastering business, certainly. That was. And it's been that way for a long time. It's not just big projects done by people I'm going to do a little bit of a that have a lot of experience. We work with everybody, anybody on this side. background. quick look at the I'm going to do a little bit of A lot of people assume that we don't work on projects a quick look at the background. I'm going to do a little bit of a quick look at the background.

that are maybe people starting out and things like that. I'm going to do a little bit of a quick look at the background. I'm going to do a little bit of But we work, we're open to work with anybody. a quick look at the background. spouses I'm going to do a little bit of One thing that I do see that is kind of a common thing a quick look at the background. I'm going to do a little bit of a quick look at the background. I'm going to do a little bit of that I have to navigate with people .

a quick look at the background. I'm going to do a little bit of is kind of what I was talking a little about before. , a quick look at the background. I'm going to do a little bit of , People leaning on the bus too much, a quick look at the background. I'm going to do a little bit of even though they feel like they should remove that for us. a quick look at the background. And the disconnects that can happen along the way with that.

I think we've already talked a lot about that, but that's certainly something. And then of course, another thing is when somebody mixes Or warped. into a bus and then changes that bus halfway through. Mm. And now they've skewed everything. And now they're kind of, it's almost like when you bend a spoon and you try to bend it back, it's weakened. You know, I mean, that's exactly, like it's become more, it's not back to where it was.

shortest signals [ Pause ] It's kind of, you know, you're seeing the issue [ Pause ] you around not just, I mean, it's kind of a strange analogy, you but that's kind of one way to think about it, you know? you Or shaking an Etch A Sketch is another way. Thank you. [ Pause ] You know, you're losing what you're doing because you're changing it along the way. After past dates, So I've kind of found that in my own process (music) I did a enroll in the Insert .

and I see it as a consistency being on this end (silence) [ Pause ] of where people kind of shoot themselves (silence) [ Pause ] a little bit in the foot. (silence) [ Pause ] I find that if I process something before the console (silence) Thank you. and I maybe EQ something with a plug-in to a mix [ [ Pause ] and then I master that, I'm never in as good of a place as if I do all of that as one thing.

In other words, I'm working with the mix maybe a little digitally and sometimes I do this and then I'm working with it on the console. If I do all of it at once, in other words, throw it on the console and get kind of there, then go over to digital, kind of fine tune it there, not separate these things as two independent processes, Silence] but do it with all together, I'll always come up with something that feels just better Hmm. Right. Right. and more natural because it's this global one move.

Many moves as one move, not partnering it out into slivers of that. (laughs) (laughs) There's so much that's sacred and very, very, (silence) to the music's advantage, to have a mixing stage and then a mastering stage (silence) and have those two things be very defined. (silence) Where have we thought of that before? (laughs) There is, it's something that's tried and it just works (giggles) [ Pause ] and it's great. [ Pause ] Here's where it doesn't work so much, which is a little bit confusing.

And I've had this, this has been proven to me over and over again. Somebody mixes it, they get happy with their mix, then they throw it through another process and that brings them a little further towards mastering and they get this instant gratification Maybe it's a tape emulation plugin. And they say, "Wow, this sounds great, I really love this." And then I master that, not even knowing that something before this tape plugin exists, 'cause maybe the communication, Hmm.

maybe they forgot, this happens quite often. Oh no. And then maybe I'll master that whole record that way, thinking that that's what the mix is. And then I'll get the original mixes. This has happened without that process, [ Pause ] the way it was mixed to begin with. That's generally always gonna beat it. Hmm. Even though the person got this instant gratification [ Pause ] You. Hmm. by adding this little inter, Hmm.

Hmm. this sliver of processing in between the mixing and mastering, This is please don't try it. [ Pause ] Hilarious. thinking that they're helping themselves. I would actually, and this is very conceptually based, Yeah. I'll probably be able to do that in a better way. 'Cause maybe their mixes were a little dark and they threw it through something and it brightened them up a little bit. It would be better if I did all the brightening on this Sure, sure. and it's one big process.

So what I'm really leading to is, it's such a benefit to have a defined mixing stage Right. and a defined mastering stage, Well, that makes good sense. and not all of these little creative things in between that people, usually that doesn't help anything Right Okay. except for take a departure in some way. That makes really good sense. And we've actually discussed that multiple times. Or it gets you that, it's like a two steps forward, Right.

one step back kind of situation versus just three steps Well, that makes good sense. Okay. forward, yeah, yeah. That makes really good sense. [BLANK_AUDIO] And we've actually discussed that multiple times where very definitive stages in the recording process where you have your tracking phase, try not to mix during your tracking phase. And you know, it kind of goes back to what I was saying. And then you have your mix phase. And then as you're saying, try not to master during your mix phase.

And then you go to your mastering phase. Right. If you, let's say, and this just happened not so long ago, when somebody mixed Sure. their album, got happy, and then threw on a tape emulation plugin. Right. Yeah. It would have been totally different if that tape emulation plugin was on their bus as they mixed, then that would have probably worked out just fine. Yeah. Yeah. Because when you put that on there, you're actually skewing your balances.

You wouldn't have ended up, I've said this already, you wouldn't have ended up in that place if those order of events were different. These are advanced concepts that you have to live to learn. And somebody in our position being at the very bottleneck end sees all of it. And with YouTube becoming the new mentor versus an individual that's been sitting in front Yeah. Yeah, but that's the same. I mean, I've seen a lot of people that are saying, "Oh, Sure.

of speakers for decades and that's all they've ever done, the way that this knowledge has I'm going to do a little bit of a quick break. really passed is to just live it and experience it. And then it really becomes in your, it's in your bones at that point. It's beyond your understanding. It's just knowing. And a lot of times I'll say these types of things to people and they'll say, "Okay, I wonder." Because they haven't lived it. They haven't experienced it.

They kind of think, "Well, maybe that I have to try this to see if it works." [ Silence ] and they end up usually finding that out, you know? But anyway, you kind of have to... [ Silence ] Yeah. I'm a dad, right? So I have a teenage daughter and it's one of those things that you as a parent [ Silence ] You can tell your children usually don't do this, right?

It's gonna end up badly But it doesn't make sense until they actually have to go through that process and learn for themselves why it's a bad thing (whispering) Right and the same thing goes for here again your your two bus processing, right? (whispering) [silence] It's generally not a bad idea for you're too aggressive and doing all this kind of stuff But one thing I wanted to touch on as well is I know we've talked about this Jody when it comes to these [silence] Yep.

specific Mm-hmm stages of production, right and I think we've all heard this kind of thing. Oh that they'll fix that in mastering, right? (breathing deeply) Yeah, right [silence] but but but having the mindset of You Record like there is no mixing (sighs) You Certainly. Right in mix like there is no mastering right so trying to leave You [BLANK_AUDIO] hopefully as few headaches for somebody like you Ruben and then you can jump in at a higher level Right.

top of thing you do the thing you do and take it to a whole different place as opposed to having to fix a bunch of issues instead of just making it better right yeah Well, you know, I said this a little bit ago where, You can't do one thing without affecting everything. [LAUGHTER] So if you have something to fix, Yeah. your attention is now kind of being drawn towards that, whereas it might not have to be in a situation where you don't have to do that.

In other words, you're gonna get more from us, from me or our process, if we don't have to do that so much. And usually if that's the case, it's so easy to just get some mixing engineer on the phone and say, "Hey, your snare is very loud," or something like that, [LAUGHTER] Yeah. or your vocals buried in the mix. And I'm having to pull out this vocal, but along with the vocal, something else. and if you give me a vocal up, it's gonna be so much better.

So, you know, if I end up having that inner dialogue as I'm working that I'm having to kind of dig something out, I'll usually just get somebody on the phone or write an email. And it's so easy to recall anything these days. [ Pause ] It's not like it used to be, you know, where you have to reprint a tape or something like that. So, yeah. Sure. Real quick there, you mentioned something Mm-hmm. about getting a vocal up.

Now, most people don't even think about the various outputs that they can do on a particular Mi carlo autom Dj to mix. As I set up a mix template that actually has seven different outputs all at once, where there's a vocal up, there's a vocal down, there's the actual mix, there's an instrumental Yeah. acapella lead only and background only kind of thing. Well, first off, that sounds like a very efficient Pro Tools session template you have.

(silence) (silence) When you mentioned give me a vocal up, is that the kind of thing you say, hey, maybe (silence) if you give me the vocal up mix, that would be a better mastering job? Or is that you're going to blend that in somehow? I do. It is. Well, it saves me seven times the amount of exports because it does it all at once. That's probably very valuable for a lot of people. That's great. So a vocal up with just one dB up without any type of approaching it with trying to (silence) Mm-hmm.

create a vocal up is one thing. If the vocal seems buried and your mastering engineer calls you and says, "Hey, I'm trying [no audio] to dig out the vocal, but if you gave me a vocal up, it would be better." Sometimes it's just a straight one dB or a 7/10th of a dB up and you can just literally raise it up and print it. But probably what's better is to look at it again and weave it in again, most likely. Of course. Sure. Because then instead of just a blank 1 dB up,

right. Right. One thing I wanted to ask you as well, and this kind of leads into it, I then the mixing engineer is putting back their mixing engineer cap. And along with that vocal, they might have to readjust this or that to massage things into place. And then we kind of re-look at it. And it's not gonna be the same setting with the vocals now up. It's gonna be, now I'm gonna relate to this new thing. Where, and position what I'm positioning based off what's being fed.

That's again a musical approach versus a, I don't know, a conceptual approach. approach. (laughs) Yes, certainly. Thank you very much. (silence) think I'm assuming that most of the time you get delivered a stereo mix for you to master. [Silence] [ Silence ]

Do you guys ever get delivered or prefer perhaps to avoid some of the issues we're just talking about to do to simply get stems from and I'm talking actual stems here not multitracks but if you get like stems so that you can do those slight adjustments during the mastering stage or is that less common for you? Got a good point, yeah. It's less common, it's also a little bit of a different mindset.

If I am working with stems, first thing is I have to know if there was anything on the [ Silence ] bus that these stems don't represent. Because if you part out stems, most cases have to bypass your bus. Your bus is acting on something that's being summed. When you part them out, you're summing based off only those grouped stems. Right. Maybe you have a drum stem, hypothetically, or maybe you have this or that, but you're >> Thank you. still parting it out and you're eliminating that bus.

(silence) So if you're mixing into something on the bus, best thing to do would be recreating that here in the Pro Tools session. It's also a different mindset to work from balancing stems [ Silence ] while you're balancing it globally. So you kind of have to shift gears [ Silence ] and be in two places at once. And it's not something that I prefer to do. Usually I prefer to have a mix being committed to. And then I'm really just mastering. [ Silence ]

I'm putting on that hat and I'm able to just provide something so much better in that place. Right. Now, because I've heard people that like to get mixes just that way, right, whether they're Yes. processed or not, and you basically just put them in a fader up to Unity, and that was the intention [ Pause ] of the mix, right. But I can see how that would, again, open up just a completely different

can of worms for you. Because, again, they're like you mentioned, bus processing, where, well, yeah, [ Silence ] you might run the same processing on each bus when you're bouncing them out. But now the compressor >> But it won't affect the same way. Exactly, because now it's like, well, now the drums are not present, so the compression [ Silence ] is hitting differently or what have you.

There is a little cheat around that and to have all your compression being side-chained off a fold down off to the side. So in other words, your individual stems are being processed as though they were summing, even though they're not. Right. And that is the beginning to a solution for mastering with the absence of a bus, thus Mm. object-based formats.

Mm. And I could talk a lot about that too, because I actually developed a solution for mastering [ and Atmos as though you have a bus, but with the absence of a bus, which is basically just that. audio cut off] audio cut off] [ It has to do with multiple layers of folding something down to mono and having all your Okay. [ audio cut off] [ audio cut off]

dynamic processes being keyed off and side-chain off that mono fold down, maintaining correlation [ audio cut off] [ audio cut off] [ audio cut off] as though they were on a bus. [ And you can do this in series. audio cut off] In other words, compress into compression and have all of that work as though it was [ audio cut off] [ audio cut off] on a bus, even though it's not. [ audio cut off] much like my crazy template for seven outputs at once. So, yeah, in a sense it is.

(chuckling) [LAUGHTER] [Silence] It's like kind of thinking at the very end [BLANK_AUDIO] and working backwards so you can part everything out as though, so anyway, there are ways around it. [Silence] Best case scenario, mix it, be confident in your mix, feel good about your mix, give it to a mastering engineer, [Laughter] [LAUGH] have them be a mastering engineer. [Silence] That's always the best way. Alright.

Try to have a mastering engineer [Silence] be somewhat of a mixing engineer, usually is because the mixing engineer is not very feeling a little bit insecure. Yeah. And you're already in a place of where you're kind of losing [Silence] to begin with if you're in that place. [Laughter] So hopefully you're not in that place. That's a good point, yeah. Yep. Right. And the way I would approach that situation Okay. Right. Right.

is I would listen to the mix, I'd throw it up on the board, I'd get them on the phone, I'd say, "Hey, if you do this, that, and the other, you'll probably end up with something better." Then they send that and we work that way. And that's a different type of dynamic. Okay. [BLANK_AUDIO] That's not just a traditional hire me for a mastering a record, that's almost mixed consult, let's get this better.

And sometimes there's time and budget for that, sometimes there's not, sometimes it's, In terms of trends in mastering, you briefly just mentioned Dolby Atmos. "Hey, this is really good, but call this person. "They'll help you along the way and then send it to me. "We can do that too." So all of that happens. 360 RA, a different format. but [ Pause ] [ Silence ] And I know that a month or so ago, or so ago I actually emailed Gavin about 360 RA. Are you familiar with that one as well?

It's the Sony version of Dolby Atmos so to speak. Oh yeah, Sony 360, yeah, sure. So the reason why I was asking about that from Gavin and I would assume it would probably also (silence) Mm-hmm. fall in your lap is that I'm about to be producing a couple of artists that are going to be promoted through that. So Gavin's response and I don't know if it would fall in line with yours is that there [ Pause ] Oh, there is. isn't that much Dolby Atmos work really going. Is that true or?

Maybe he said something different. Right. I think that was more his point is the demand is not super heavy yet. There's certainly a lot of people doing it. I'm not sure how much demand there is out there yet for it. I don't know that they're not that there because people don't really understand, they don't understand what it is yet. They don't understand why they should have it yet. Right. And there's just a lot of confusion altogether.

There's also a lot of repurposed records to kind of lead the charge that were never produced [ Pause ] Exactly. for Atmos, that were produced for stereo. >> Right. They were thought, the ideas behind them were constructed for stereo and then they're being reimagined. Another thing, another non-straight line musically. You know, when... And we've actually talked about this on the podcast. [ Pause ] This is music, you know? Yeah. It's a musical idea.

You throw it on a canvas and everything in line has to do with everything in line. We can just help out with people. And unless you're... And of course, it's arrangement dependent. And we can just send that to a team. You could probably, you know, maybe like a radiohead type of arrangement, you know, where Yeah. you have all these different elements that are unworldly and what is that even, you know?

Yes. Right And you can have all of that live and swirl around you musically and maybe that would [ Pause ] be a little more conducive than, you know, a three-piece rock band where you have very limited I. elements and traditionally we have an expectation to have that be spread out on stage in front of

you. All of that goes into this, but I found that if somebody approaches an Atmos mix and they're Well, and that being said, do you think listening to something that's painting on that canvas and they're being creative in that state and they're producing for the format itself, it yields a completely different end result because you're imagining it from the beginning (silence) with that in mind and it all just follows suit. So those productions are very special and I think

that this is just budding technology and it's only going to get better. So we have an atmos... Yeah I can... (audience member laughs) [Silence] originally designed for stereo, [ Pause ] trying to be reimagined for Dolby, compared to something that was made now strictly for Dolby [ Pause ] and folds down into stereo, which sounds better in the Dolby world to you [ Pause ] or the 360 concept to you? Thank you.

Sure. I think like kind of what I was saying, you know, if your intention to paint on this canvas, (Applause) [ Pause ] if you will, is that way from the beginning, it's probably by concepts going to end up in a better place because it's a straight shot there. [Silence] It doesn't mean that it can't work the other way, but it's very much, I find, arrangement-dependent, ( dat you know, in the intent of the music. Some arrangements are more conducive to the format than others.

You know, we're doing a lot of stuff for, you know, Netflix and stuff that maybe even mixed in a channel-based immersive format, 714. It's already been imagined for immersive and we can take that and then Atmos-ize it in Oh, wow. a way, you know, render it for Atmos and there is that too. Hm-hmm. Very cool. or somebody will remix it for Atmos because it's already in a large way Okay. kind of been thought to be immersive in terms of its musicality.

Interesting. Excuse me one second, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna. Other trends that are coming up in mastering and maybe shifting because there was a period Yeah, well, the streaming platforms Hm. (silence) of time where we denote them as called the loudness wars. [silence] What is currently going on in that regard with mastering and mixes? What do you see as a trend happening now? have really put a nail in the coffin

loudness worse. So it's a good thing. You know, it's funny when I started out, even before I Yay. started even stepped a foot into the mastering lab, I was at MI and I thought to myself, You actually thought that. I'm going to be somebody that makes loud records because that sounds like a good idea to me. Right. I thought I was going to be a really fast guitar player too, but here we are. I actually thought that. I thought maybe I'll be one of these people that leans a little more loud Sure.

I want to be heard. because why wouldn't you think that? Sounds like me. [LAUGHTER] And then you get educated and you realize that loudness is as much a part of the musicality as anything else. [ Silence ] Yeah. And really what it comes down to is density. Yeah. Loudness is density because if you're dealing with a summed mix, you can even look at the waveform and it has peaks and valleys. [ Pause ]

And if you squeeze down those peaks, you have something denser, which leaves you headroom to then raise it back up. So if you're working up against digital zero and you have a denser end result either happening in the mix or with what we do to densify things further musically, Right. The more dense something is, the more loud it will be. Now, density has everything to do with the musicality. [ Pause ]

And to over-densify something in our stage [ Pause ] that hasn't been mixed for, you're going to start hearing the processing before the music. And that should be an indication of, . or can be an indication of how far to go [ Silence ] before you start wanting to stop. Becoming sensitive to that point, and really keying in on that, has to do with the limitations of how far you can push something based off the dynamic range of the mix at hand, or groups of mixes at hand.

Sometimes you have to find a common denominator [ Silence ] and a good mastering engineer will be able to deliver that in a way that has no compromises most of the time. And I could talk a little bit about that too, because sometimes you're dealing with a very dense pop arrangement [ Pause ] that's got to live on the same release as a very open wide dynamics orchestral score. This is very common. [Silence] Disney movies have this all the time. Right. Real orchestra done by the best of the best.

and you have a top 40 artist and it allows to live on the same canvas. What do you do in that scenario? So a good mastering engineer will be able to deliver something that has no compromises on either. So, yes, the loudness wars really had to do with and this probably peaked, I don't know, around 2008 or nine or something like that, where everybody was really trying to out loud each other. Not everybody, but a lot of people were. Right. We were never doing that. [ Silence ] [ Pause ]

we always put music first and we developed that reputation and trust. It was actually not even developed, it was just maintaining that reputation and trust because [ Pause ] that is the way we approached records. And it's not that we didn't make things loud, [ Pause ] but we made things loud musically or as loud as they musically wanted to be. .

If that's what we were trying to achieve musically, doesn't mean that we should make [ Pause ] everything as loud and push it to maximum because loudness has a sound based off the density. [ Pause ] Of course, you can lean a little bit more that way. And you might need to compress musically [ Marketing videos ] a little bit more that way if that's what you're trying to go for or if that's where [ Pause ] [ Pause ]

you're feeling that it's pulling you or that's the intent. Or you can relax it a little bit and you can end up in and realize something in a slightly more relaxed gentler place which opens up all of this textural feel and I suppose tonality that wouldn't be available to you if you try to

juice it too much. So it's really a musical choice and the good news is that it all will fly because [BLANK_AUDIO] because you don't need to try to be the loudest thing in the world because, well, you never did begin with, Okay. Right, the LUFS scale, yeah. but you really don't now because of the streaming platforms lowering everything to a lower common denominator, usually around -13 LUFS. Yeah, that is a measurement based off an average level over a time durette. [BLANK_AUDIO]

Yes, so it's not something that, you know, you can have something measured at a certain place and sound louder, [ Pause ] and you can have something measured at a different place, and it sounds, and it measures louder, but sounds lower. . [BLANK_AUDIO] It really has to do with the arrangement and the density (Applause) and how much bottom end there is, you know, [ Pause ] and what the information is doing to trick that meter. So there is measured level and then there's perceived level. [ Pause ]

It's all of that together. Right. So you can have something that is at hitting at LUFS minus eight [ Pause ] and it lives just fine next to something that is living at minus LUFS 11 and then also minus LUFS seven. And they can all sound perception-wise at the proper level, but they're all measuring at that place. So that exists as well. So that's why this is very much a human process still. So a question about the streaming services here, because I think it is technically known Great.

that Spotify lives at minus 14 and Apple lives at minus 16. How do you deal with that in a in a particular master? (Silence) [ Pause ] Because they're they they're set for their automatic adjustments. Yes. They're going to move to that level on their software. [ Pause ] So the way to work that is to not worry about it So how do you work that? Mm hmm. actually so much because you're certainly not going to be aiming for that level. You have to have a one size fits all.

And it could be, and it has already, that these platforms are changing their specs halfway Right. Sure. through their release of these specs. You know, they're not going to necessarily stay at that level. And all it is, is a normalization downward. You're literally taking the output and just turning it digitally down. I'm pretty sure that they have the ability to think of saving Right. So as, let's say, everybody's dealing, whether you're going to a professional mastering house Thank you.

or you're working in Pro Tools or GarageBand in your bedroom. Thank you. Sure. Everybody's dealing with digital zero if they're working in a DAW. And it's the same for everybody. Digital zero is digital zero, doesn't matter where you go.

And if you're working up against digital zero, at true zero, and you're pushing your level up against your dynamic processes and mastering, and you have a limiter at the very end and you work backwards from there, and you're pushing up level and essentially you're densifying until you don't want to push up anymore. You kind of relax it, you kind of find you narrowing in on the sweet spot. Thank you. you're finding the sweet spot in this place. [ Silence ] Thank you. Thank you.

And now you're mastering it and you're mastering it through time, meaning that Thank you. You it's not just one setting necessarily and forgetting it. Thank you Thank you. You're weaving all of that together in real time. Thank you. You're EQing, you're riding section to section in, and now you're happy. You've printed it. You don't want to print it again. You're feeling really good about this and it's up to level. It feels at the appropriate level for the mix.

That is when you can say you're done and let the platforms do what they do. If they lower something, that's fine because your musicality is baked in there and committed to. [ Silence ] Thank you. So if they lower it, that all exists there. Thank you. You can turn it back up with your volume knob and it's going to translate. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. What you don't want to do is push something further than where it wants to be pushed, mix-wise, in the mastering stage. Good Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. If you want to come up with something that's more hyped, don't lean on the mastering stage. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Lean on the mixing stage and have somebody then re-approach it in mastering. Thank you. Thank you. And that's the best way to do it. Hi Dobbs.

to choke something or try to mangle something into a finished place in the mastering stage, My name is Silas zo Ard [ Pause ] you're approaching it from a place of compromise because, and now more than ever, because what's My name is Wakanda. going to happen is you've overdensified something and now you're starting to hear the processing instead of the music first a little bit or you're aware of the processing and it's being lowered anyway.

So let's say you've got a DB extra level that you didn't want. Or a flatter mix, for that matter. It's now being lowered an extra DB on the platforms. you're ending up with a louder, smaller end result. A less musical, musically compromised, smaller, Hmm. Perhaps exactly. [ Pause ] more processed sounding end result that is not gonna sound as big on the platforms either.

And here's the other thing, even if the platforms didn't exist, you take a project that's been mastered, I don't know, kind of maybe not so great and kind of forced, you have a human being turning it down on their dial in the car while they're listening. [BLANK_AUDIO] So, which is the worst thing that you want 'cause they don't know where to put this thing. [silence] It's like, it's coming out of the speakers and it's abrasive and it's feeling processed.

So they turn it down figuring that maybe that'll be it. And now it just feels like it's smaller And who wants that? So yeah. Yeah. and they're in between. So an over-processed record ends up having nowhere to live in terms of level when there's not a connection musically. And so that's the biggest downfall of an overhyped record is that people just turn it down. Yeah. Nobody wants that. [laughs] Nobody wants that. But it's not a, this is not a problem.

>> Sure. [BLANK_AUDIO] Level is just not a problem because you're, again, And you're dealing, if you want to go for this hyped thing and you want to go for larger than life and this big expansive exciting sound, you can do that and you can narrow in on that place. And in best case scenario, you don't have to force anything to do that. So you start forcing something, you're already, you're going to be kind of listening to that force.

If it just falls into place and it's mixed for that, those are the mixes that are always going to light up the room and fill the whole space. And that's, that's what you want anyway. Yeah, because I think that that's something too that deserves to be mentioned again. All right. [Silence] But I think, you know, we're talking about the whole stages of everything, right? >> [ Silence ] If you want to have a track that has that impact, that doesn't start and end with a mastering.

It's the whole process, right? Certainly. I mean, even though something is something so simple as you are really punchy So you have to take into consideration arrangements and mixing and all that kind of stuff. And only then will you be able to, I think, arrive at a result where you get that, right? Yeah. Yeah? elements being mono, you know, just something like that.

If you have, especially if working on hip hop or EDM or any of these more aggressive [ Silence ] type virtual type of arrangements, if you have your 808s and your kicks and your snares mono, you have double the signal coming out of both speakers at the same time versus something >> Yeah. that's not completely mono, then you have a little less of double the signal coming out of the speakers at the same time.

Something as simple as that has a lot to do with how much loudness you end up with or size. Here's a selfish question for you. So all of these things matter. You're dealing with a product that has its own signature thumbprint and it's every project, every arrangement, every production is unique to its own self. Yeah. You've worked on a lot of projects. I don't have a favorite though. What would be your favorite project that you've ever done? There's a lot of ones that stick out.

Do you ever listen to something like that in that regard and put it away for a long You know, for me, it's not so much about that because here's the thing. Any favorite record I'll listen to for two weeks straight and I won't want to listen to it for a while. And then a year goes by and I'll be listening to it again. [ Pause ] So yeah, yeah, sure. time? Go back, listen to it and go, "Damn, I did a pretty good job with that."

And I I mean, that's the beauty of it is that you have this whole catalog of stuff that you worked on. And it doesn't have to be stuff that I've worked on either. I enjoy records that other people that I listen to records that Gavin works on. [ Silence ] He listens to records that I work on or my other colleagues. So I do love listening to music. I get a lot of music in my world every day working on new music. Of course. You're working with the community.

But in terms of favorite records, there's so many. It's not just on the social media. I mean, there's orchestral scores. It's working with the public health department. There's bands, there's artists, there's reissue work. It's working with the public health department. So if you ever have a problem with it, We work on a different album or more every single day, five days a week, lots of weekends you can do it once a week. It's not working with the public health department. as well, 16 years in.

It's working with the private health department. I mean, there's so much music. You can do it once a week. So yeah, I have my favorite albums that I go to and stuff like that. So it's working with the public health department. [ Silence ] And if you're working with the public health department, And it's really just the process of doing this every day that is the appeal, more than, you can do it once a week. But if you're working with the public health department, then you can do it once a week.

If you're working with the private health department, "Hey, I've got all these records that I'm proud that I worked on." then you can do it once a week. Sure. Okay. So let me refine the question a little bit. What are you listening to constantly right now? It's, yeah. It's funny. [LAUGHTER] I listen to a lot of podcasts because I have so much music in my world, you know? [ogh Buddh successful e.g.] So I end up listening to podcasts on the way to and from work.

But I do love working on orchestral music. I think I am, I don't know, maybe the last five or six years, [ Silence ] Snail Civil authorization I listen to a lot of film scores. e.g. I've always loved film scores. I've always loved orchestra. [BLANK_AUDIO] I'm listening, but I listen to, you know, pee I work on R&B records and hip hop records wo sh and metal records and jazz records. So I, you know, that's one thing that this work has, Very, very cool. I love every single genre of music.

I find that I am attracted to anything that's musically beautiful. Doesn't matter the genre, I'll be drawn to it. So I work on everything. And that's something that this job has opened me to. Right on. That's cool. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, let's ask the three questions and then let's see if we can get them in for a Friday find.

So what do you think, Jody? Should we try to let him go here and end up with those three questions that we'd like to ask or is anything else that you would like to do before we move into that? Okay, let's do that. So these are three questions that I (laughing) (silence) mentioned, Reuben, that we asked everybody. And the first one is, I guess it's the speakers. what's your favorite piece of gear that you can't live without? [BLANK_AUDIO]

(laughing) (sneezes) It's probably these speakers because they tell you everything, you know? (laughing) Yep, what are you using right now? And without that, these are ATC 150s and they're the only speaker I've ever really used. [BLANK_AUDIO] I've been using them the whole time. And I'm very fussy when it comes to balancing speakers in a room, you know? In other words, if we moved or something like that, I'd be very fussy for quite a long [ Pause ] until I feel really good.

I've gotten quite, we moved about six or something years ago Wait, so you're not in the location that I came and sat with you when I had a particular and it takes a little bit of time to acclimatize. We had another studio thankfully at the time to transition through that. But this... That could, that might've been in, mix mastered by you? Yeah, well, no, North Hollywood. was that in Hollywood or was that in Burbank? That was in Hollywood? Okay, so you were here.

I'm thinking, was it off of Magnolia? No. So yeah, we've been, this is in Burbank. I think it is the new location. We've been here about six or some, seven years now. Okay. And we're about six years. And we were in Hollywood before that for a... That was the location in Burbank, right? Yeah. Okay. Yes, yes. Okay. So we've been here that long. Okay. And then before that, we were in Hollywood about 10 years. I do have another nerdy question about the speakers and the setup.

But yeah, the room, the speakers, your porthole to balance, you know. Yes. Thank you. You say you're usually, if you move a situation, which hopefully isn't all that often, you Thank you. Okay. Thank you. get very fussy. Yes. And is part of that fussiness like the phasing issues that might happen and how do you correct Thank you. You know, there's no perfect room and there's no perfect environment and it's also somewhat Thank you. Thank you. for that? Uh-huh. Thank you. Okay. subjective.

We like to darken these speakers. Thank you. Gavin and I very much are not into a very bright tweeter. Thank you. Thank you. [fades] We like to, and it's just based pretty much just probably just being used to what we were Thank you. used to or what Gavin was used to back at the mastering lab and then tuning the room in [end] Hollywood based off being more familiar with that. [ Silence ] [end] And then I've kind of fallen into that over, you know, just been acclimatized to that. [end] [end]

So in terms of phase issues, orientation of where you place the speakers in the room, you you where you're sitting in the room, what is, you know, if you have a null point in the you you room where that every room has a null point. you So dealing with that using absorption panels, diffusion panels, all of the things that you you you you do, bass traps, to work with your room and how you integrate all of that. Sure. you you I find it to be a human process and a technical process.

you Sure. [ Silence ] I think the best way to go about it is doing sweeps, measuring your room, having those sweeps back up what you're hearing and using your ears to fine tune and fine tune until you feel like you don't want to change it. And then the process of acclimatizing to that, which usually takes a few weeks at the minimum. Sure. a whole lot, putting your hands on the board, watching how you relate, seeing what your Right. hands do intuitively and seeing if that makes sense.

All of that, if it all balances out, in other words, are you EQ-ing for the music or are you EQ-ing for the room? Mm-hmm. [ Silence ] Making sure that your room is telling you the truth. Usually that takes a few weeks or so and then we say, "Okay, now we're ready to work and we can start working on material." We always want to have a plan in place.

in the new room. Right. All right. Here's our second question for you. What is the biggest In other words, if we do move, we have one room that doesn't move. We do all our professional work that way until we feel confident that we can use the new room for real work. Yeah, so there's that. We have to have that. lesson you've learned so far to date? [Silence] To not think too much, not get into your head, not second-guess yourself.

Put yourself in a place of where you can be open to the music and trust yourself to show Yeah, up every day. And if you're not feeling it, maybe take a break and then show up in an hour. You know, in other words, just try to live Thank you. Mike [ Pause ] and be connected to the music and lead from that place. So much of this working on music is intimidating to a lot of people. Thank you. [ Silence ]

It comes with a whole lot of insecurity that then comes with over compensating for that and people coming in feeling like their shit don't stink even though they know it kind of does. (laughing) There's a whole lot of that, you know, and put that all aside. [ Silence ] We're working on music. It's such an amazing thing that we're able to work on music.

Take your, this is what I'm bringing to the table, out of the equation, being fortunate enough [ Silence ] to be able to have this stuff come through you so you can show up every day and bring that to the table [ Silence ] and then move on to the next one. That's what it's all about. I don't know, I think maybe the biggest thing that I've learned is to EQ myself as I'm EQing the music.

In other words, allowing myself to not get in my own head and just always remember to try to connect with the music. If I'm in that place, it's very hard to miss actually. It's kind of like you can't miss. It's like, you know, when you're playing guitar and the mics are being set up and you're playing it for a few times >> Right. [ Silence ] and you're feeling it, you can't miss.

But now when you're on take 40 [ Silence ] and you're all inside your head and you're trying to nail it, you're never gonna nail it. Right. You nailed it on take one [ Silence ] [ Silence ] while the mics were being set up. So that is as much a part of this process is developing that intuition and exercising that like a muscle and being confident in that so you can show up in that place every day versus using your brain and having to rely on that.

Of course, when you're learning this, You have to use your brain until you can, like learning an instrument. You learn all the scales, you learn the music theory, you lodge that and you put it in your back pocket, you pull it out when you need it, but you're gonna do your best work if you're just going off your musical intuition. Right. Right. Yeah. All right. So the last question here, and you've almost kind of maybe And that's what this is, just like mixing or mastering, This is the trick.

if you lead from that place. Anyway, that's what I found. And I find that that translates to anything artistic at all. If you're in this second guessing artist phase, you're probably not in your true form. If you're in your direct connective in the flow state phase, it's very hard to miss. and to try to get that every day is the task at hand. Yes. Let's make it musically speaking into the mastering world. Well, that's a really broad question.

answered it already but what's the piece of advice that you universally give when somebody asks you for advice? It is a very broad question. Yeah, music, yeah, let's say for your world In what way? Like, to be a mastery engineer or to... Well, it's a tricky thing because best case scenario, when it comes to music or let's say that somebody wants to be the next Ruben Cohen, right? What Yeah. Yeah. would you advise that person to do? Yeah, let's just go with mastering. Yeah.

Yeah. Hmm. [ Silence ] Hmm. you can learn from somebody that really has done it for a long, long time. If you can find that, and that's a very rare, unique, privileged position to be in. Hmm. It's so rare. [ Silence ] If you can find that, that's your best bet. Then like I was saying, you're standing on those shoulders and you're really learning from somebody that really knows. But if that's not available to you, it doesn't mean that you can't teach yourself [ Silence ] and learn along the way.

I mean, most of what you're gonna learn in this is staying up really late at night and proving things to yourself that only you're gonna ever really understand through doing it. I was talking to somebody that was young the other day And they said, "Don't I need to go to school Yeah. and I don't learn from this?" And yes, that would be all great, but most of what you end up learning is just by doing it and doing it by yourself. And you're gonna learn things at midnight So, .

we. [ Silence ] and that's gonna forever impact your career moving forward. And the only way to get there is by putting in that time.

So I feel like as long as you keep showing up and even if you don't notice yourself improving, if you still doing it, if you still just keep showing up and do it every day and you find that consistency, like anything else, like playing an instrument, like being in business, like doing anything at all, you're gonna refine your abilities and you're gonna start realizing the subtleties of things and becoming more sensitive to the subtleties of things.

And through that, you develop your sensibilities and your ways about going about it, Thank you. (silence) and you keep on growing. (silence) There's many aspects of this job. (silence) It's not just a musical job. It's a job of being in service. Yeah. It's a job of making sure that you stay on budget and deadline and keeping confidence and trust with your clients. All of that comes into this.

We've spent a lot of time talking about the musical and technical aspect of this, but being of service so that you can perpetuate this ever-going freight train [END] that a lot of people are on board. Yeah. It's not, you know, we have a small team here. [END] A lot of people depend on Gavin and I to EQ the music. [END] [END]

We have managers, we have production editors, you know, [END] we're all on this train together [END] and all our clients that depend on us as well, you know, [END] mixing engineers, producers, artists that have worked with us for a long, long, long time. [BLANK_AUDIO] They expect us something of us. We have to, you know, it's all unspoken. They just know that if they make the call, we're gonna be ready to deliver. And they know that they don't have to communicate Absolutely.

anything to us, they just know we're there for them. That has everything to do with being in business just as much as being able to make something sound good. So that goes with this too, is understanding all of that. You know, that's all part of it too. Yeah, likewise. Fantastic. All right. Well, I think on that note, we are going to thank you for Yeah. your time here. It's been wonderful to talk to you, wonderful to meet you. Lots of wisdom

there. So thank you for giving us this time. I really appreciate it. Thank you both. This was great. I really enjoyed it. Well, if you want to stick around, it's time for our variety Yeah, there's some construction going on here. I don't know what the heck it is, but please And, uh... [laughs] [laughter] finds. Chris, are you ready to do this because of the fact [Laughs] [laughs] you got a hammer going above your head? [Pause] What the hell? (laughs) [LAUGHTER]

disregard the man behind the curtain. Right? No, so maybe we should say to Reuben first, [ Pause ] [APPLAUSE] What Our Friday finds it, it's basically something that we've discovered through the week that's added some kind of value into whatever we do. Talk to you soon, an inning. And for me, it is an artist this week actually musical an album where this artist Venus Theory goes by has an album called emotions and echoes. Thank you.

(breathing deeply) (breathing deeply) [ Pause ] [ Pause ] And I've been on a trip lately with I like more ambient sort of soundscapey kind of almost like [ Pause ] underscore type of stuff. So that has to be my Friday find for this week. It's Venus Theory [ Pause ] and Motions and Echoes. What about you Jody? All right. Thank you. My Friday Find this week actually comes [ Pause ] from the Waves Corporation.

They've just released a brand new plugin called Harmonize, You You [ Pause ] which allows you to apparently do up to eight voices You You of harmonization on vocals in real time You [Silence] and make it sound like eight different people rather than the same person being sent through a Harmonizer. That is my understanding of the plugin. They're doing an introductory offer.

Of course, they say that it's eventually gonna be like $149, but my guess is, is that it will end up on their $29 list at some point in the future [laughs] Okay, you know, I mentioned this analog piece, this Overstayer MAS harmonic enhancer, and as they usually tend to do. (laughs) No. That would be my Friday find of this week. How about you, Ruben? Do you got something new? Yes. Can you spell out over stair because that sounds like a complicated word. [ Silence ]

I recently used the plug-in version of it on a 714 score on a couple cues, and it did something very similar to what I used the analog. So it's an Overstayer MAS and I think if you just type in that in Google and find the plugin, it's a very... Yeah, it's an Over, S-T-A-Y-E-R, like Over and Stayer. Oh, over stair. Overstayer. I thought you were saying Ober. Yeah, yeah. No, Overstayer and they make very cool, unique pieces that just offer something that I don't Awesome. very cool.

think anything really quite offers. So it's very cool. But you can have it digitally too and it does, it basically does what you'd expect it to do. using that from time to time too, especially if I'm working outside of stereo. Thank you. Rock on. [ Pause ] ok While we've got your attention, we ask that you go to inside the recording studio.com and sign up for our mailing list. you You'll get weekly reminders about the Tuesday tips when they come out and we'll make sure [ Silence ]

you don't miss any future episodes of the podcast. Send us an email at gold star G O L D S T A R at inside the recording studio.com with the name Reuben and you'll get something cool back in your inbox. If you have a topic or suggestion for Chris and I to explain in a future episode, contact us at the contact page and we'll put it into consideration for a future episode. And with Thank you, Chris and Jody. Take care. that I'll say, see you next week. BLOOPERS

Thank you, Reuben. Thanks for listening, everybody. Have a good one, Jody.