Hello. And welcome to another episode of Inside the recording studio. I'm doing alright. I see what you did there with the announcement. So very apropos. Of I am Jody Whitesides and with me as always is Mr. Chris Hellstrom. How are you today, Chris? You saw it, but did you hear it? course I heard it. Yeah, no, I'm doing alright. I'm doing alright. As of this recording, we Okay.
are in the throes of the NHL Stanley Cup playoffs. So I'm a very happy camper right now. Yeah, I take it the kings have made it? will make no sense. Kings have made it. They're up three to two in the series right now and Sweet. [laughs] I don't want to go any further than that because that's I might not age well you know. So we'll Sweet. I'm hanging in there. I'm hanging in there. I'm doing all right. see but no I'm excited there's a lot of hockey on TV. So yeah I'm good. How are you doing?
Yes. What are we talking about today? Yeah, good. That's good. Like that. Well, just like you alluded to there with the announcement that Yes. we're going to talk about vocal distance really to a vocal mic. And hopefully you heard there that Hint, hint. you sounded really far away and got really close and had a lot of proximity effect there. So that's what we're going to start yapping about today. Yep, not even a hint. That's it. Yeah. Well, Go for it. Kick in. Kick in. Right.
as with everything that there's a lot of movable parts here right but we're going to do deal just with vocals today so the first thing that makes a difference of course is what mic you're Yeah. using right and i'm thinking generally we got condenser mics i'm thinking you know akg like What kinds do we have here? a 414 or you know we got the telefunctions and yeah condenser mics tend to be a little bit more (laughs) Four, four ones, yeah.
expensive, sound a little bit better. But of course we have also we got dynamic mics right, so we got like 57's and 58's and that kind of stuff. And yeah and we can even go as far as like I have. recording vocals with a pizome mic, which you have talked about before. But that's a little bit more That's very, very rare occasions that those tend to happen, but yes. It can be done.
esoteric, but it can be done, right? Then again, like in SM58, if you're on a little bit more of the budget scope, like 58 is what, like, I don't know, 100 bucks or less probably, so... 99, man. Yeah, so that will make a difference. And how would you say that that actually makes a difference Get that $1 out of there.
of how we're treating a vocal performance with those three... So let's forget about the Well, the first thing I would want to think about is the distance from the mic in terms the pie zone for a second, but we're dealing with just condenser order the dynamics. Right. of how are we measuring this? Yup. And before we hit the record button, you're expressing to me that you talk about a handwidth of distance.
And I immediately thought to myself, well, what if the person listening thought handwidth meant just the flat distance between the front and back The the thickness of your hand yeah of their hand, the thickness of their hand Right yeah instead of it being perpendicular to the mic to the mouth. That's rather close in my opinion. So I would extend that out to at least two hand widths of your pinky to your index finger and then pinky to your index finger of your other hand.
And I say that because I don't tend to use the products that put the box around your head, 'cause if you have a product that puts a box around your head You to kind of make it quieter, Yeah, that's true. Yeah so you're supposed to get a better sounding vocal, you are probably about one hand width away from that microphone, because you've got a box around your head. Yeah If you don't have a box around your head, that's awfully close in my mind.
However, for me personally, as a vocalist, I am usually not much closer than on average about a foot to a foot and a half, maybe two feet back from the mic. Wow And I know my hands are not that big to get two hands They're not a foot wide that is not two feet wide.
Yeah, the reason why I say a hand with as well is because I'm generally measuring that necessarily not from the mic itself Sure, well, there's always a little bit of difference But from the the pop filter I might have with which in it Mm-hmm if you are using a pop filter. The pop filter that I tend to have on my mic, my main vocal mic, which is a C12, the distance of that is just about a finger width
Right. Right. And it's also a good way actually from stopping the singer from getting too from the front of the microphone screen to the pop filter itself. I've had previous pop filters where I could set it at a fair distance, like a good four inches away from the mic. So that's a way to help gauge how far back from the mic you are. Yeah, if you need a singer that needs to be put back from the mic, you stick that pop
close as well, right? Because if you got that pop filter in front of it, it's like, yeah. filter far back from them and they can put your mouth right up on that pop filter and Yeah, indeed. Yep. Because I like to get, you know, again, this is very content dependent, still be away from it. So I get that. So why do you say a hand with? Yeah. Yeah. right? And singer dependent, but it's just to get that intimacy of the vocal. So I end up, [sighs] Mm-hmm.
We'll touch on this a little bit later on, but a certain proximity effect so that we Mm-hmm. get a little bit of that warmth. If it's a singer that is really comfortable in the studio and tends to project a lot more, obviously I'd ask him or her to back off a little bit and they probably won't need me to tell them that if they're so inclined, right? Right.
But if there's somebody that's just a little bit green, shall we say, that just, I want Well, I can agree with that, but I'm also going to say that that distance make sure that they don't get too scared and start backing off and the, the sound of the vocal will suffer. Totally. is going to be heavily dependent upon the mic pre and the gain staging that you're running for that mic. Yeah. Because the more gain you've got coming in that mic, Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. chances are the further back from the mic that singer is going to be standing from it. But you tend to start them with those like two hand widths if it's a singer that you don't know, for example. And the reason for that is, is the more gain you've got going, the closer they get, Right. Yeah. Yeah, but you tend to start them with those like two hand widths if it's a singer that the more it may actually distort, but they're also passing a whole lot more volume through it.
So that's a pretty big deal right there in my mind. Oh, no, I let them stand wherever they feel like they're going to be comfortable. you don't know, for example, right? Yeah. Oh, wow, you are so forgiving. I am. And then if it's not working, (laughs) I'm going to adjust them forward or back. - That makes sense, yeah. You know what I mean? Right, right. And the reason why I do that is because I want the singer - Sure. to be relatively comfortable when they start.
And if it's something that is easily fixable for me, based on where they feel comfortable standing back from the mic with the gain stage of the mic pre, it's easier for me to do that. - Right. if that's not a good case issue.
>> Right. Yeah. And I'm in an environment where the surrounding environment tends to suck, which I don't do a whole lot of, but if that's the case, then yeah, I am gonna want to get them closer to the mic and then I'll work the pre-gain stage of the mic pre down so that them being closer isn't going to be a huge issue. So I don't have a general hard fast rule of like, >> Yeah. Yeah, sure. oh, they must be two hand widths or a hand with away from that mic.
'Cause to me, especially with the mics I tend to use, getting a hand with the way, you're starting to really hear some of the effect that we're gonna talk about down the street here. And for me to get a closer vibe also depends upon the content of the song. >> Right. Right. Yeah, the Vypri, right? Yeah. If I'm going with an alt rocker who is screaming at the mic, generally they need to be back away from that mic. and I'll raise the gain a little bit.
I also have a bit of a specialty case in how I'm working with at least a few of my mics in that I have a mic pre that is very different from most other mic pre's. Yes, the group two's mic pre, which they do not, Yeah, this is actually really interesting to me because I haven't messed around with as far as I know, is no longer made. It has the ability with one of its settings to be able to change the impedance of the microphone that's being fed into it.
Yes. that as much as you have obviously, but yeah, please share. So the idea of changing the homage of the mic, Hmm. one, you have to know that your mics can take it because it could actually damage your mic. And it's not necessarily always a good case to do that. Yeah, thank you so much for, um If you However, I think that's a really rare case that you're gonna have a mic that it's gonna damage it. missed another update on that.
But if you have an old RCA Victor ribbon mic, I would love to see a Scrolls The homage of that is gonna be around 300, which is very, very low by comparison. But the beauty of those mics, man, I have sung through one of those and it is just heavenly. But to spend 40 or 50 grand to get one of them startup walk from this. is something I don't feel like I should do, right? But the music is so important, man, so come on, right? Right? Yes, I agree, the music is important.
However, with a more modern mic (Applause) that can take varying types of impedances, [ Pause ] although generally more modern mics are going to be [ Pause ] in the much higher range of around 2400 ohms. They're gonna react differently if you switch them from 2400 to 1200 to 600 to 300. Now obviously they're gonna feel in their comfort zone in the 2400 ohm range. If you switch them down to a 300 ohm range, you're getting an entirely different vibe going on.
In fact, let's do a quick little experiment right here with it. I'm gonna stay in the same spot. And just so people know is that I am using the Groove tubes Vipri as my mic input on a C12. [ Pause ] And this is my normal talking distance right here. And that is at 1200 ohms. Now, if I switch it to 2400 ohms, >> Okay. >> Do it. this is how it sounds now. >> Hmm. Now I've lost just a tiny bit of volume >> Right. and it's not quite as thick sounding, right?
At 2400. Now, if I switch it back to the 12, this is at the 12. >> Right. And you can tell that I've got a little bit more presence. If I switch it to 600, now I'm at 600. Yeah. And you can tell that even though I haven't changed my distance, my volume's gone up a little bit and a little bit more is happening in the low end. Yeah. There's a little more, it's just, it's like I've gotten closer, but I haven't.
And then if I go to 300, which is here, So how would you how would you go about that with in in a way that you're not now you can hear that I've got a lot more low end and a lot more oomph going into the mic. And that's, it's subtle, but it's there. Now I'm gonna go back to the 12. I try to match it to the mic to begin, right? How would you go about that with in a session when it's not you singing? Would you just experiment with that?
So even though the C12 actually that I'm using should be at 2400, I tend to like it at 12, Or do you have a starting point? You start on those higher homages and then go from there or how do you? Yeah. especially for doing the podcast. Now if I'm singing hard, I'm going to put it at 24. If I'm singing what... And just so people know, you don't need to have a telephone can see 12 to do a podcast. No, no, no, no, you don't. Right. But that's my biggest comparison is that.
But for a lead vocal and me wanting it, Right. like if the singer really likes to be up on the mic on a lead vocal, I'm gonna be choosing the higher omensh because I'm not gonna get as big of an effect on that closeness, so to speak. All right. Yeah. Whereas if I still want a feeling of depth but I want more room sound to it, even though I've got that depth going on and I still want like even more out of the room, I'll go to 300.
'Cause then you can stand back pretty far, you'll still get your same depth in terms of the feel of the vocal. But you'll also start really capturing a whole lot of the room along with it. Yeah. And that's also very dependent on something Right. that we'll talk about a little bit further down the road as well. But those are the things that you have to pay attention to when you're dealing with a vocal on a mic is getting that singer to feel comfortable about it. Yeah, and you should...
That's my big thing. And that's why I don't have a set standard. Right. I let them feel out where they wanna be on the mic. Mm-hmm. Now, this is also dependent upon in my mind whether or not you're using one of those [Silence] really ridiculous contraptions that I actually dislike. And that's the box around your head thing. Mm-hmm.
I think that is great if you're in an environment [Silence] or you're just doing demo vocals, but that's not something I'd use for a real, like, pristine high-end lead vocal for a major, like, I guess, pop hit. That also being said, there's those things that they build that are supposed to be the reflection captures The reflection filter. that they put behind, yeah, the thing that goes behind the mic Yeah. Yeah, to play devil's advocate that yeah.
on the opposite side, those things kill the vibe of the sound of a vocal faster than you can say Superman. It's insane. I just, I wouldn't, I hate those things. I don't think they're good because you losing all of the spatial value out of the mic when you use that. And I get why people do that Right. Yeah. because if you're in a shitty room, it's got a shit ton of reflections that are awful, then maybe that helps a little bit. [BLANK_AUDIO] But I think that kills it more than anything.
If you're in a room like that where you think, oh, I need one of these guard type things, move the mic to a new spot, Yeah, no, I think just to play devil's advocate, I think, Find out where the reflections are not happening and put it there. You're gonna be so much better off by moving the mic to a proper spot in the room and then setting back from the mic with the distance that you're comfortable with the singing. That's just me.
Don't. Oh, I will yeah, no, I mean it's one of those things that (laughing) Just kidding. (laughs) Mm-hmm. You know you want to try it's just a tool right if it can solve some issues for you then great awesome I would say but don't count that that's gonna solve every issue that you have in your room like or the positioning and I don't think it's gonna solve much of any issue and generally speaking, I think it creates a bigger problem.
I'm gonna go the Al Schmidt method on that and just say, put it in the right spot in the room. Right, yeah, so we're not going to be sponsored by reflection filters (laughs) Not now anyway, yeah likely. Right. Not after this method. So. Yeah, and I would say also when it comes to Yes.
the distance and the miking techniques and everything here that you know, there are singers that Are more comfortable if they're actually holding the microphone Because they might they might use their entire body to get into the vocal performance getting everything out of themselves, right? Well, and that also makes it a lot easier as a singular vocalist using a singular mic, so to speak, Yeah
to be able to control it faster. Because if you're just standing there and the mic is on a stand, Move right you have to weave and dance if you need to move. Whereas if it's in your hand and it's handheld, We are you can immediately pull it back from your face. And I've seen recordings done with guys that like like to hold them. I'm not one of those guys. It's.. right However, the big problem with a handheld mic in that regard, hand noise on the shell of the mic.
So I would cover that mic with some sort of foam Yeah for his hand grip or her hand grip so that when they're gripping the thing, you're not gonna start getting a whole lot of low end rumble Right. And if you're a super aggressive singer, please don't cup the mic when you're doing on the mic based on how they're moving that mic around. [BLANK_AUDIO] [LAUGH]
that, you know? So it's one of those... Yeah. Yeah, it might look really cool on stage, You don't wanna be like Bane, come on man, let's sing like Bane. [BLANK_AUDIO] when you're you know the sound leaves a little bit to be desired perhaps so All right, and with that, we're gonna take a quick break for proximity effects yeah that's worth a lot on the scrabble board i think but yeah the proximity a word from our sponsor before we get into this effect that we've been talking about. [BLANK_AUDIO]
And we're back. What is this ridiculous effect that we're talking about for the whole concept of miking when it comes to a vocal? Yes. Yeah, if you use it as a phrase. right? But yeah, the closeness, how you get, if I'm backing up a little bit here and I Yes. Mm-hmm. get a lot closer to my microphone like this, it's the proximity effect. You tend to get Yes. more low end, obviously, the closer you are to the mic, right? See, there we go. And that Mm-hmm.
is something that if somebody is doing that, where you said what they're projecting, you Well, there's a few reasons why you don't want them that close. probably don't want them that close, right? But no, there's several. Yeah, you don't. It's not just the proximity effect.
There's also the gigantic airflow over the head of the microphone that causes massive Yeah, when it comes to an intimate type of a vocal performance, let's say that it's a ballad or distortion and popping from it moving too far.
something and or that but isn't she also one right and is she one that likes to or even a Billie Eilish song, she tends to literally sing right up on the frame of the mic from my understanding, which is how she get those really close whispering type layered vocals, it's the right up on the mic itself. You know what? hold the mic I think she is but yeah so that that's an intimacy thing and it's a I don't know the answer to that, but that would be good to know.
Well, if you want it to feel like you're whispering in somebody's ear. good way to kind of get that vibe out of a vocal if it needs to be close and passionate and that type of thing, right? To get really close up to it. Or that, yeah. Is there any time where that is a bad thing for you? Yeah. The proximity effect. Yeah. Well, it does tend to make things a little bit more difficult when you're doing a mix Mm-hmm. on a vocal.
If it's extremely pronounced, it makes it harder to EQ the vocal in my mind, in my experience. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not one to really use a whole lot of the proximity effect just for the low end vibe I think to me it really comes down to the dynamics of the performance, right? of it in any way. Yes. You should see me do my two step in the studio.
Where if you are really up close in one part of the song and you have to back up for the next and those are things that certain singers are really, really good at doing. But you have to be good at doing. Yeah? [LAUGHTER] I can't wait to see that next time. Sure. You have to shoot me a video next time you do vocals. Yeah. So that's the proximity effect. It's basically just how close we get to the microphone that we get all that nice low end. And I use nice in air quotes there.
So if it's or at least appropriate. Right. How do you deal with background vocals then? Background vocals are a little different for me, Yeah. No. in that I will use whatever mic Sure. in a slightly different way. So say I use the C12 again for background vocals. And if I have multiple singers Right. that are gonna sing them all at once, I'm likely to set it to an omnidirectional mode. And that's something we didn't really cover a whole lot Yeah. in terms of the different mic types.
And let me jump back before I go too far into the background vocal thing and include this with the lead vocal thing. Condenser mics, some of them have the ability Maybe you should explain that a little bit more of what that actually means. to change the polar pattern. Like the C12 actually from Telefunken has the ability to change the polar pattern. And you can go from hyper cardioid to Omni and a whole lot of varying degrees in between.
A cardioid pattern is a figured eight where the front end of the mic is gonna have a certain narrow range where once you're out of that range, [ Silence ] you don't get the same value as when you're right in front of that range. And what I just did was moved away from the mic into an out of the range of the polar pattern.
And some of them go hypercardioid, which means that it's going to be bigger in the front end of the mic and much smaller around the back end of the mic, which means the back end is going to start rejecting a whole lot of the signal that's coming from behind the mic. Some mics are good at doing that, some are not. Thank you.
Now, when you set it to an omni-direction, that means no matter what direction you are around the mic, it's going to pick you up pretty much the same from every side and every angle of the mic. And that's what I mean by that. Dynamic mics are a whole lot less likely to have varying degrees or varying abilities. They usually are set to some sort of cardioid and depending on the type of mic that you buy,
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. That's an interesting part when we start dealing with background they're gonna reject the back end pretty good and they're only gonna be very focused on the front end. And then when you have a piezo mic, which is a very rare occurrence for a vocal mic, that's something that literally most often you have to be right up on top of that damn thing, like swallowing it as you're singing on it. And there's no other way to get around it.
And that's the polar pattern that I'm talking about. ( audio cuts out) ( Mm-hmm. Sure, because you can just set them right up in front of the mic or if you have it in a Vocals and things right depending on how many people are doing them if it's just one person at a time that it's less of an issue but it Mm-hmm. Yep hypercardioid. So that's the thing that if it's just a cardioid pattern and you have two singers, you set one on the front and one on the back and they're going to sound equal.
But if you have like four or five people, that's where you see these videos of maybe Right. older bands. if there's too many more modern bands that are doing videos of them in the studio as they're singing, where you see a group of guys or the group of the band standing around the mic in a circle, that mic that they're singing on is most likely set to some sort of omnidirectional mode so that everybody's being heard equally. Well, you're going to pick it up from every angle.
And also another thing to keep in mind there if we're using that, even if we have just Singular singer is that we need to be aware of that that if you have it in Omni that you're gonna pick up more of the Reflections and the room and that kind of thing as well Exactly, yeah Yeah, so That does make a difference for your miking distance. Right, I remember seeing a documentary it was about the Beach Boys one time when they were Those guys were masters in the studio, man.
They spent a lot of time in there. - Absolutely, yeah. Mm-hmm. And they were doing all their vocals at the same time. They're all around one mic and the guys are, depending on the part that they're singing, Yeah. they're taking a step forward or they're taking a step back. And just to make sure that they're gonna blend properly in that because that's, yeah, there's that one track of background vocals, right? That's pretty impressive when you know guys that, It is.
they know their voices that well and sort of like mix, that's the El Schmidt thing, right? You're mixing as you go, basically. Well, and there's also the concept if you take it even further back to the maybe even Yeah? the Phil Spector era and Big Band and those kinds of things. When those guys set up a mic in a room and it was usually a singular mic, everybody in Mm-hmm, yeah.
the band, including the instrumentalists and the singers were all set at very specific distances from that mic so that they were getting the volumic volume level, volumic Yeah, and so those old Sun Studio recordings with Elvis and stuff, right? volume level of the instrument and or vocal based on the distance from the microphone that was automatically mixed because of how far away from the mic they were.
Yeah. And that's why they did it that way is they didn't have the modern DAW technology that we can They were just, yeah. Right. and use now to essentially approximate any distance or use individual pieces and set them in a distance by using the faders in a DAW when you're mixing. When you had one mic or two mics that you were using, There you go, there's your sound right there. you were stuck. So you had to, yeah, it's like, that's your sound.
Yeah. So it's like, you have to know the proximity effect and the distance effect to get the volume levels right. And that's why we think about that, or at least that's why we're telling you, you should think about it when you're doing your recordings. And with that, we're gonna move on to our Friday Fines. Chris, what have you got for us today? Uh-oh. I read about something that I thought was absolutely amazing and that somebody should I do? have done it sooner, but maybe they weren't able to.
You work in Final Cut Pro every once in a while, as do I, and then you know that the Yes. Mm hmm. audio functionality in Final Cut Pro, let's say, leaves a little bit to be desired when it comes to adjusting things. So there's this company called Audio Design Desk, have come up with an application called Audio Bridge, which actually syncs the audio from Logic into Final Cut. Do they have videos of how this is supposed to work? Yeah, I believe they do. Oh, sweet. I need to go see this.
Yeah, so that you can basically, you don't need to transport everything into Final Cut Yeah, that shit's a pain in the ass. And then as I tend to do, edit everything there, have to fly it back to mix and do all the kind of stuff and then clean it up, do all that kind of stuff and then finally back into Final Cut Pro again. Right. It is a huge, even with OMF, right? (laughs) Yeah. It's like, it works, but it's, oh, it's a pain. Uh-huh. [ Silence ] But now I guess you don't have to.
You can just leave it there in logic. I am a little bit suspicious about how it's gonna work with, you know, once you start editing and stuff in Final Cut. The idea there that now you can stay and just keep logic running in the background for all the audio needs is amazing. Audio bridge by audio design desk. And you sir, what have you got for us? That's me. I'm going with those of us who are guitar players. There's a piece of software out there called Guitar Pro. Right. Yay!
Wait, run that past me again? And there's a lot of people that likely use it because it's really good at generally doing guitar transcriptions. Right. Yeah. Right. Yay! Wait, run that past me again? Right. Yeah. And they're expanding on it. It there's a new update out called Guitar Pro 8. Obviously, that's a step up from Guitar Pro 7. So now it's version eight.
(laughs) We're one step further down the road in Guitar Pro 8. [ silence ] silence ] [ So they've made some refinements to the user interface, silence ] [ they say, which I literally just downloaded it this morning. silence ] [ I have not yet had a chance to open it up [ and see what those exact differences are. silence ] [ But my understanding is, is they've also added the ability silence ] [ for people to add audio directly silence ] to whatever their transcription is. [ silence ]
What the benefit of that is, I have no idea. [ However, it can be done. silence ] Oh, well, I guess that might be kind of handy, especially if you could slow the audio down I believe you can actually to the timeline of it now as well, with the audio that you're importing. So you could have like settler loops when you're working on transcriptions. So you don't have to go back and forth to a DAW or something like that.
So... [ Pause ] to listen to whatever it is that you're trying to pick apart and transcribe. I do know this is something that has been a little bit bothersome to me as I've done and some rather hefty transcriptions using Guitar Pro 7. That has bothered me in that if you're doing a bend and holding that bend while hitting another note or two, there's some real issues with how Guitar Pro 7 dealt with that because you have to use
Yeah. Right. But it is a great piece of software. And, you know, eight, I'm sure, is, you know, a ridiculous number of ties to account for every single piece of rhythm that might be happening in between things, which is not how I'm used to doing transcriptions. And so I'm hoping they've fixed that in eight. I don't know if they have yet, but hopefully they have fixed that because that is a pain in the butt. Oh, it is, I use it constantly. Yeah, and I think there's a little upgrade price.
is even better, presumably, so. Very cool. Very cool. And if you don't own it outright, you can still buy the full version. And I highly recommend it. I use it a lot, a lalalalalalot. Yes. And with that, while we've got your attention, [ Pause ] we ask that you go to inside the recordingstudio.com and sign up for our mailing list. Doing so will get you weekly reminders about the Tuesday tips when they come out. And we'll also make sure you don't miss any future episodes of
our lovely podcast. Send us an email at gold star G O L D S T A R at inside the recording studio.com with the phrase mic distance and you'll get something cool back in your inbox. If you have a topic or suggestion for Chris and I to [Silence] pontificate upon and explain to you in a future episode, contact us at the contact page and we'll put it into consideration for a future episode. And with that, I'll say, see you next week. Have a good one, Jody. Thanks for listening, everybody.
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