Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside the Recording Studio. I am Jody Whitesides and with me as always is Mr. Chris Hellstrom. How are you today, Chris? I am doing great, Jodi. How about yourself? I got a good solid 90 minutes, I believe it was, of awesome powder skiing this morning. First tracks on two runs, face shots, knee deep powder, nice, light, and fluffy, unlike yesterday morning, which was heavy and wet. So we've had a lot of snow lately. It was great this morning.
I am really, really jealous right now (laughs) 'cause it's been decades since I did some powder skiing. Been doing a lot of it this year. So good. It's been almost every week, even several days in a row. Okay, I don't wanna talk about that anymore. All right, what are we talking about today then? Let's talk about something else. (laughs) Ooh, companion.
Well, we're doing a little bit of a companion piece to last week's episode where we talked about, We talked about reference mixes as we're mixing. Uh-huh, right. We're kind of covering a pretty wide ground here Another thing that we can use references for is during the writing stage and production, however you wanna call it, like if you're producing your tracks or if you're just writing your tracks.
So you're putting your tracks together to use references to help with inspiration when we're doing that. So that's what we're talking about today. Yeah, I think so. And I mean, and if you're one of those guys, because some people don't do much writing, I would think, like both you and I are that wear a bunch of different hats if they're just producers or if they're just recording engineers. where you do all of that. So it's from time to time, indeed.
And there are those who are more the artist types who probably don't do a lot of production. So this kind of goes hand in hand. So I think it's apropos. I kind of hinted at inspiration, but From time to time. we'll leave it at the end of the video. So I think it's apropos. I think it's apropos. I think it's apropos. All right. I think it's apropos. I kind of hinted at inspiration, but we'll leave that to a little bit later. Learn to learn.
I think first, you know, why would you want to do this is the first question. Why would you use the reference point when you're just sitting down to start writing? So to learn inspiration, to clarify, or dig down a little bit more into that would be, >> Mm-hm. let's say that you're tasked to write a song or you want to write a song in a style that you're either not that familiar with or you just need some new inspiration. It is a good source to
Sure. I'll go a step further. If you are producing an artist that is in a genre that is outside listen to other tracks that are in that style that are either successful or that you just plain and like and learning how to write a track in that style and how to make it big and glorious and have all the elements of a successful and good sounding track that we want in our own. right? Absolutely and getting under the hood of what makes that genre or style of music tick
your wheelhouse and you may or may not be riding with them. Getting them to give you the references of where they're coming from also helps you get into the right mindset for working with said artist. snobs. What is it that actually drives that and makes that because today in the musical landscape, there's so many sub genres, right? People have all these things that well, it's not
Trap unless it has this or it isn't whatever right? There's all those things. So it I Would agree with you because ultimately it's just music (laughs) Very knowledgeable. If it is a specific thing that is appealing to this artist or that you're emulating or you're trying to do
It's good to be knowledgeable about those things. So And sometimes even though you're taking that for the knowledge that it's supposed to be with these references, one thing that I've done is use that as the source of inspiration for what you're writing with the artist. [BLANK_AUDIO] Totally. I'm gonna go back and rewind the tape here a little bit until let's say the 90s when at least to me that's where things like hip-hop and rap was really starting to become Mm-hm.
mainstream. And then you saw some production techniques that were prominent in those genres [BLANK_AUDIO] kind of bleed into more pop stuff, right? Where you could see that there was a lot of use of Sure. [BLANK_AUDIO] sampling and loops and things like that, that started to come up in other genres as well. It can inform and inspire future Well, they can be only good.
productions as taking these elements. And like you said, have as an inspiration and making it into something new, perhaps all of these things where we can pull from are only good, in my opinion. We'll cross that bridge later, right? Yeah. So my [BLANK_AUDIO] That's right. [Laughter] question to you then that what is the first thing or a couple of things that you would seek to emulate when you're doing this? Hmm. The very first thing I do is I count out and think about the song structure.
[ Pause ]
Figuring out, do they have an intro? Is it opening with a chorus? Is it a specific songwriting structure like ABABA? Or is it more verse chorus, verse chorus, bridge chorus? Or does it have a pre-chorus in there? Those are all things that you need to figure out. And song structure with the Beatles, it was quite simplistic. Right. When they first were kicking out tunes, they were ABABA and they were done. And then as they became more popular Yeah.
and as things happen over time, simple modulates into more and more complex. And if we take it to the point of say Sia from the Beatles, so to speak to Sia, Sia writes extremely complicated song structures quite often but they are absolutely amazing. It's a cycle that happens. [Silence] Now we've got so many things going on in music. What are you attempting to emulate? Song structure is a good one 'cause that gives you the roadmap to fill everything else in. Mm hmm.
Absolutely, absolutely. When you're speaking of song structure here, first thought that came to my mind is that you mentioned Sia. There's a lot of modern artists that are using a lot of different song structures and advanced structures. If you listen to a lot of pop music today, a lot of chord progressions and things can remain relatively static or sometimes really static through a whole song. Yeah, right. But then it comes down to different arrangement
same chord progression for the entire song. That's super static. Right. Adding and subtracting ideas or not even modulations but like okay well the synth bass is taking over here or whatever the lead vocal is dropping out whatever it is to keep it interesting but yeah right in that sort of propels it forward so there's pieces and parts around that chord progression.
something that we can learn from that as well yeah and we'll dive into that in a That's more of the arrangement of the song structure. second here, I think, but I wanted to also ask like your opinion, because it's very easy for people to go and they look I disagree. at our current pop music is just crap and it's simplistic and I disagree. I disagree. [laughs] it's this and that. And I wonder, yeah, I'm more on your
side on that. But one thing that I wanted to bring up here is ", like, because, like you said, it's a popular thing to do is Oh, it's just this and music was so much better when I was a kid, putting your gotten right? That's what everybody's reference, right? But I wonder prices how much of that is sort of self serving when it comes to writing songs that, okay, well, this structure is popular now. for So I'm going to do that. And then the listeners, the current
listeners get used to hearing that. So we like to think, well, Oh, I think there's plenty of option. things have to be really simple, or it won't be successful. versus do you think it's just that we don't give the audience the option really of having more advanced structures perhaps? Yeah. It's not whether it's a singular artist providing whatever option that you're talking about. I think it comes down to niche instead of broad because there's so many artists out
there now doing so many different things that anybody could find an audience. It's just, Well, that's a good point. can you find your audience? But in that regard, I think the rise of why singular static chord progressions really came into play has more to do with solo artists and looping pedals. And yeah.
Because once you start changing song structure or changing chord progressions, looping pedals Yeah, so you think this is essentially a limit in live performance technology that sort of has become more difficult to deal with. I think it's a... I think it's a creative thing. drives that? We're doing the creation process maybe. And it's not to say that it becomes boring because Prince can make a single chord sound freaking amazing, Yeah.
or at least he did, to being able to just pull things in and out [BLANK_AUDIO] of just a singular chord with a melody. If you can keep it that simple and just keep people on the edge of their sheet, brilliant. That's awesome. Right. Because then you got the complete opposite of all that, [BLANK_AUDIO] where you've got guys like Herbie Hancock, who have just the most insanely complex chord progressions to make up their songs. Yeah, and probably it's an easy target.
(laughs) It depends on where you are creatively as an artist. And I think for a lot of people, it's a lot easier to keep it simple. It doesn't mean that they're doing it well. It just means it's easier to keep it simple. Right. The advent of the DAW, they say, okay, that was eight bars. Okay, that's cool. Let's loop that again and again. that's not necessarily like we're going off a little bit of Well, additional things to emulate here it on the tangent here with that range. Yeah. Right. Right.
in terms of listening to your reference becomes production candy, as some people would call it, beyond the arrangement, beyond the song structure. And production candy becomes the little pieces, parts that you can throw in there to add additional interest to the song at a given moment.
[ Sugar Yeah, those are things that, well, I know both you and I share this view, or I think I can speak for you, is that those are just little things that you might not necessarily think about the first listen of the song, but it's like when you put your headphones on and you've got, "Oh, I never heard
that before. Did you hear that little glockenspiel going on duplicating that keyboard melody or whatever?" And those are things that could just put that little extra icing on the cake and ] emotional keep the listener's interest as well as it's moving on along the song, even if they're not super aware of it. I want to go back to some of the arrangement ideas here as well before we move on too quickly. We talked about the song structure, right? But then also, how is the song arranged? Right.
It could even be things like, are the lead vocals or is the lead vocal doubled? Just things like that. Uh-huh. Right. How are they panned? How is the synth loop playing through the entire song? Is it dropping out? Is it doing all those interest capturing things that we talked about if you have like a simpler structure to kind of propel forward? Right. And going back to your first question is like, what's the first thing I do?
Doing really nerdy stuff with just like listening and just writing all that out. Things that you notice. Then you have a framework that you can kind of do that with. So that's just what I wanted that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Yep. Yeah, I remember you telling me that. I'm figuring out the song structure that I'm going after. And I'm counting out bars. Is there an odd measure somewhere? And that's an interesting one.
I believe we've spoken about this previously on other episodes of the podcast in that there are some hit songwriters who have determined that all their hits have one odd measure in them somewhere. (laughs) (laughs) So it's an interesting idea to do the same thing for yourself, Yeah, it could certainly do that. but then that starts to complicate stuff. And do you want to be complicated in that regard?
If you're a solo artist who's playing with a looping pedal, chances are you're not going to add an odd measure somewhere because that's going to throw your entire looping system out of whack. Why aren't you talking to this went on today, And then of course, just like anything else, and this goes on and on again? it's like, don't be a slave to that. But you're all right?
I have to have an odd bar or somewhere, Why aren't you thoin, and your silence in that would be a little bit shocking for you but if that doesn't really work for your arrangement, then don't do it for that sake. Um, right. because it's so strange somehow when we why It has to serve a purpose.
So easy targets for those would be like perhaps breakdown before you come into the last course again, like add that instead of having a bar of four, four have a bar of five or seven or something that it's like, oh, what's really going on here? You know, it just feels weird. But as long as it's working, it's a good thing to do. . It's a good idea. Some of those things are easy to emulate. I brought up the example of Sia and the fact that she has complicated song structures. [ Pause ]
And I recall being at a songwriter's night one night where someone was actually tearing apart one of her songs to teach it to other people. The problem with how that person was doing it, they were oversimplifying the situation on something that glossed over very relevant changes that happened in the song. the song that I'm thinking of, I'm not going to name it, had two different kinds of verses.
Okay. And I would term the first one the verse, and then I would term the second one verse prime, Okay. Hmm because they were both verses, but they were substantially different from each other. And it wasn't a pre-chorus, and it wasn't a chorus. And she does things like that, that are really, really cool, where every part to the song becomes its own entity all by itself, but they string together extremely well. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah when you're explaining that just popped into my mind David Bowie's space oddity Where it sort of has several verses, but they're different from each other Yes. So it's interesting how just some of the core changes that he would come up with that just shouldn't work Well, it's not just the chord progression, it's the melody that ties it together as But they do you know it's kind of crazy. So well.
Of course, so yeah, obviously the melody will be the deciding factor there, that kind of... As long as that works, everything else will be just fine. [ Silence ] And other things that are just fine is us taking a quick break for a word from our sponsors. And we're back. We're gonna continue on talking about using these reference tracks for INSPO, for production and writing. But what we're going to delve into now is what not to emulate at this point.
What's the first thing that you think of, Chris, not to emulate? That's a good one. distinct melody lines. Yeah, because that. Yeah, because it Mainly because it's a copyright issue right there. [LAUGHTER] tends to get lawyers involved. Yeah, if somebody's ripped off That's right. And you don't want lawyers involved in your music other than collect my money, bastard. [LAUGHTER] your melody line, then you're the one that's lawyering up. Mm-hmm.
It's just a bad idea. We can obviously look for inspiration in things like, oh, I like how it has a climbing melody or whatever, or things, movements, general movements, TikTok, TikTok. that's kind of cool. But if you're blatantly ripping a melody off, yeah, just don't do it. That's only a matter of time before somebody comes after you. And this can be kind of a sticky one too, because sometimes we might not realize that we're doing it, Yes.
whereas it's because we consume music Or you just hear it somewhere in the back of your head as like, And it just, yeah. use Zach in a grocery store or on an elevator or some other place. Yeah, but that's a scary one. Yes, it does. And this happens to everybody. I think we do that. Yeah. I mean, there's stories about the stones. Wow. There's actually an example like Keith Richards Hmm? talks about in his book where he's working on the latest stone song, right?
Right. And I believe this was in the 90s sometime. And his daughter goes, "Oh, I didn't know you were doing that Katie Lang song." And he's like, "What are you talking about?" And again, one of those things where Mick had subconsciously picked up on a song Well, that's good. that he'd heard a Katie Lang song and just come up with this melody, which turns out to be so identical that they actually, they have the song recorded and stuff. They just gave her songwriting credit on the song.
Yeah, well, sure. And that's a wise choice to do that until before getting sued, if you've actually ripped Yeah. off somebody's melody, whether it was intentional or not, and it's already out, you need to make amends immediately before lawyers start coming after you. And there are numerous cases of that happening. (keyboard clattering) I have a friend who wrote a song with another guy who has written a fair amount of hits. Mm. Snoop Dogg went and sampled that song. Oops. Didn't get clearance.
Yes. (laughs) Records already out. Guess who got a whole lot of money because that song got sampled without clearance. Right. Now, in a personal experience, I had a friend of mine come to me. Yeah. Yeah, and she's going to win. "Can you help me with this song?" "Sure." He plays it for me. "Dude, you can't use that melody." "Why not?" "Well, that's Avril Lavigne's 'Complicated.'" Same melody. I mean, different words. "She's going to win on that because it's been around a lot longer." Right.
"Oh, well, can you help me rewrite it?" Yeah. "Sure." So we rewrote it, and then it became kind of not necessarily a hit in its own right, in its own right, but it definitely did very well in the production music world. Yeah. And that's a lovely thing.
But it took a rewrite and it took somebody else coming in and saying, hey, I've not dealt with ripping somebody else's melody off mostly because I feel like I'm a bit of an encyclopedia of melodies and I'm pretty good at realizing when a melody is too similar to something else. But it does happen. Be careful not to do that and don't do it on purpose. That's the biggest thing.
Yes, I mean that's the big one. If we don't realize it and nobody calls us out on it, there's nothing we can do about it. That just happens, right? Right. Right. But melodies, distinct melodies, and this could of course be the same thing whether it's an instrumental melody or whatever. So if it's, you know... 'Cause there's a case in point there Yeah, the Joe Satriani. Yeah. with what you just said, cold play, ripping off a Joe Satriani song.
And they even admitted they were big fans of Joe Satriani. It's kind of like, whoops. (laughs) Yeah, I don't know what happened to that. I think they settled. Do you know what the results were on that? I think they settled, much like the Sam Smith thing. Yeah. ( And that's one that kind of gets you where it's like, ( 0.9 wait a second, Sam Smith writes this song.
) ( 0.9 ) It's not even really vaguely reminiscent ( 0.9 ) of a Tom Petty thing, but he ends up giving Tom Petty ( 0.9 ) ( some of the songwriting credits 0.9 so he gets some of the royalties. ) And the crazy thing about this, ( 0.9 ) and I think Tom Petty was a great artist, ( 0.9 But Tom Petty was notorious for ripping other people off, which is sad. ) ( 0.9 ) Yeah, that was another example that I heard.
Well, and where it's starting to get into really murky territory today I'm like, I hear you kind of stretching what's, you know, ripping off here. But... Yeah. is the idea of copywriting a vibe because you can't do that. But the infamous Pharrell Robin Williams track that was inspired by a Marvin Gaye tune, they got sued and it's they were got sued over the vibe. And it's like that's fucking scary
Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, that's see when you get cases like that when they set a precedent, because Marvin Gaye's family won. it's like that that's not good. Yeah. Yeah, the harmony and melody right? Yeah. It's super scary. No, it's terrible. Because what is copyrightable is your melody and your words, your harmony and your melody.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It comes down to, Now, on the rare occasion-- and we're delving into what not to emulate here-- very distinct chord progressions are things that you should not recreate because of things like Herbie Hancock. His chord voicings and the way he would dress them were so distinct that if you did the same thing, you were literally stealing.
But other things where it's like a standard chord progression [BLANK_AUDIO] where it's without distinct voicings and without distinct things to them, that's a typical type of chord progression in a sense. And the most typical, one four five. Sure. I mean, rock and roll dealt with that for eons now, [BLANK_AUDIO] so to speak. Yeah, it's like 5 million blues players are suing each other.
Yeah. The best way possibly to think about that would be just how you're dealing with Well, they did because it was a very similar poor progression to an extent, voice leading and like you said how your your chord inversions and everything if that is like really distinct let's say for example like the intro to stay with heaven which they actually ended up getting sued for i think they won though but yeah so but but that's when you can get into trouble like any song it's like okay let's say
but the way they did it was different. So. (laughs) And on a very rare occasion, There's not an 80s rock song that doesn't go A minor, F, C and G. Right? Just like every song ever. So those things you can't copyright. But how you do them on the rhythm? Yeah. you can actually copyright a drum groove. You take something like Walk This Way. That is super distinct. Right. If you go and use that and write a song around that,
That was a big thing with James Brown, wasn't it? Because his drama was one of the most like I have the feeling you're gonna lose that copyright case. Probably. sampled grooves ever and used in like early rap and hip hop. So it's like you just, Well, you don't wanna sample it, if you're doing that, if you go on that route, right. but my point being is that somebody could come along Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Yep. Yeah, and you could play the drum groove to walk this way.
That's pretty distinctive. Much like "Rosanna" from "Toto," that's a drum groove that every drummer probably tries to learn because Jeff Picaro just killed it on that groove. But that groove is so distinctive for that particular song. You really don't want to steal it. It's right. emulate, don't steal. Then another that we would have to talk about hours about this, but when it Mm-hmm. comes to distinct melodies and things, this gets even murkier, I think, when there's services out -Right. -Yep.
now, of course, when we like sample libraries and things like Splice, right? When you base your song ARRSW [laughs] off a sample, who owns that, right? And then potentially it could be a million other artists >> Yep. The they're using the same thing in their song as the basis of their song. Anyway, yeah, [LAUGHTER]
we'll close the door on that one, but that's when it gets really, really murky. I'd say to (laughs) sort of round off the topic here is all these warning signs about ripping off, but that's not what we're talking about here. What we're talking about is how to learn either a production style or a writing style and using that to inform your productions and also ideally as inspiration for something.
I have found something that this is going to sound just like an ad. I guess most of these sound like an ad anyway. Right. With that, let's move on to our Friday finds Chris, since you haven't found powder recently. What have you found? But I thought it was so cool. I am a big fan of Plug-in Alliance. Yes you are. and all their gear and their console emulations and stuff. Dirk Ulrich, the founder and owner of Plug-in Alliance, Mm-hmm.
he's now on the board of, what is it, Soundworks, the big merger that they had recently. Yes. So he's leaving his post at Plug-in Alliance. And if you're listening to this on the week that this is coming out, I hope you are. Whoo. If not, you're gonna kick yourself, but they're running a sale right now and they're giving you four plugins that are made by Brainworks for $49.99. You know, you and I have to, that is a steal That's a steal. because they have what?
They have all the SSL emulations, all the consoles, Well they have amp emulations. the Neve, well, they got all of that. They have all the console emulations. But let's say that you're bulking up. There's all kinds. Wait, wait, wait, wait. saying you can get a console emulation and four of them for $49? Damn. Sorry. That's what I'm saying.
Yeah, so if you hadn't stocked up on your needs, on your SSLs or your, I'm not sure if they're the ones that made the API, but they have the Amick, they have the Focus, right? If you're curious about this, this is probably a good time to do that because now you can get four of them for 50 bucks. sweet for for the price of less than one. You're right. That does sound like an advertisement. Not each, 50 bucks total.
So that had to be my sort of fine for this Friday, But yeah, I know, I know, but it's like, they're so good. But if you're listening to this in February, I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, there you go. What about you? What do you got for us? I'm going with metal and guitar players this week. That's unlike you. (laughs) Nothing guitar player, but the metal thing. Yes. A little bit. PeeVee is doing a new version Yeah. Nice. of one of their old high gain amps.
And I'm not exactly sure what model it's modeling, but it is known now what they're releasing as the 6505 Mark II, which is a high gain amp of some sort. So if you are in to very high gain guitar sounds, you got a new brother on the block to go check out the PV65052. Sweet. Yes. [ Pause ] While we've got your attention, we ask that you go to inside the recordingstudio.com and sign up for our mailing list. Doing so will get you weekly reminders . about the Tuesday tips when they come out .
and we'll make sure you don't miss any future episodes Thanks for listening everybody. of this lovely podcast. Send us an email at goldstar, G-O-L-D-S-T-A-R at inside the recording studio.com with the word references and you'll get something cool back in your inbox. If you have a topic or suggestion for Chris and I to explain in a future episode, contact us at the contact page and we'll put it into consideration for a future episode. With that, I'll say, see you next week.
to I'll talk to you later, Jody.