Innovation. Economy is teeming with innovation as new business models reinvent every industry. Inside Analysis is your source of information and insight about how to make the most of this excitement. Inside analysis dot Com, Eric Caabina, So welcome to the future is right, future is current these days, OLT, and today's topic is going to talk about how you can really leverage the power about APIs. Application. Wow, we're going to talk about APIs. Application program Interfaces.
APIs are the gateways to innovation, of the gateways to data, we're going to find out their gateways to functionality too. It's not just data that's flying across those little transoms, it's also instructions of how to do things. So on both sides, whether it's on the API side or the side access and the API, well, what you want to do is really understand how these APIs work. And they're all a little bit different. I've been told
that the Digital Ocean is the best API. That's what my developer friends tell me. But APIs they are super important. They're like faucets or spigots, right, So if you think about a faucet, you turn on the faucet to get water, you turn off the faucet to stop the flow of the water. APIs are kind of like that for data and for instruction. Basically, you turn them on, you get something from me, you turn it off. Well, you can imagine that they are very important. It's a
very important part of your architecture these days. As we move into this hybrid cloud world, which I think is going to be the reality for quite some time, they become very important. So architecturally, you want to think about stuff before the show. Here we are chit chatting about design, and I'm so proud of my daughter for being a big Pirates fan. We're here in Pittsburgh. She loves going to the games. That it's a beautiful venue because
the Urban Plant has really thought about stuff. All the seats in some way or other face the outfield, which is the skyline. So you let's see this beautiful skyline for night games and even day games of course, but nights at night the lights come on. It's just really really good stuff. So they thought about that. The ingress, the egress, it's all important.
And we have several gate guests for you today. We're gonna appearing from Lorie McGoey of five, David Linthicum, of Deloitte and our good buddy Matt McCarty from Boomy off and helped evaalize the importance of architectural design choices. So tell us a bit about yourself and what you do excuse me, what you're doing in the space of APIs today. Wow, Well thanks for having me. Like you said, I've done with F five for seventeen years. I've been
blossom through all of it. I am at this point, I'm a distinguished engineer. So my opinion about things i'd try to try to be right. And APIs is huge because it touches everything from automation right, we do app delivery in security, so how do you automate that? How do you let people out of the people who want to automate it? Right? APIs are the ants, So there's APIs in use as right, how do we make all of this possible? And then how do you go APIs or something that
people used to do those same things in the wild. So I spend a lot of time looking at the market, looking at the technologies and how they're being impacted by APIs and vice versa. But give my opinion. Yeah, well, let's let's get your opinion on a couple interesting topics here. So we were talking before shout the history about soap versus rest, for example, and the whistle folks, the w three C folks years ago are saying you should use soap. Use the silly people said, yeah, we're going to
go ahead and use. And then new things come along Kafka, Apache, Kafka and streaming technologies and that to me, not to get too far off topic, but when I think about streaming architectures and kafkun, of course there's red pandas another one, and there's a few others out there. Red Pan, I think, rewrote kaf because I think is what they did, because they said they wanted to be more efficient, so they went out and they did that. There's polar services. But to me, again, this could
come through an API, right, it's this data is channeled. These streaming architectures I think are fantastic, but they're really seemingly only good for net new use cases because there is this sort of mismatch in terms of how they operate versus how the rest of your stick operates. But I'd be curious to hear
thoughts on that and the evolution for APIs and design and management. So, yes, streaming data very different than right, how we normally think about assing a record, right, it's right real time versus transactional, right, And that's those are very data types. They're very different. Tray that you right have to access them is going to be very different. You designed differently for that. But the rise of streaming data and kind of the rise of the
awareness of data that hey, that's what we want. That's why applications exist is just to get at data for us has kind of made closer to the user, and APIs are doing that. You mentioned new things graph you all is in part to do that, right, it's a more direct way to access data as well as federate other APIs, which is great, But really it's about getting closer to the data and making sure that that happens fast or so when you're designing, you have to think about things like what you deliver
in time? Does it need to be constantly updated? Is it just record in time? How fast do people need it? Is it going to an application or directly to a client, is it going to someone else? Is it a third party? Right? What is the use for that data? That kind of buys a lot of the design of day. Yeah, and so when I think about how big a deal this is for the hybrid cloud
world, you're always trying to optimize performance. Right, if you get right down to brass tacks, there are lots of ways you can do things, and what you want to do is be able to optimize performance and really give yourself a fighting chance to live in a fast evolving world. I think that's probably the real kicker these days. What do I hear? We had John Santa far on a couple of weeks ago and he goes, agile is going
to kill our agility is gonna kill agile. I was like, what I think about this point was, Yeah, this agile stuff, that's great, but you need to be really agile like in your business and your architecture needs to be designed to support that kind of thing. Ap play a big role here in your opinion? How big a role do they play? And what can a company do to enable themselves to get this agility? Wow? Breathe
first, Right, definitely right. I think we have to go back and remember that, you know, as far as you know, like an enter technical representation of the business, more and more digital, those two things have come closer together. So APIs and are really I like to call them layer
eight on the stack, right, they're the business layer. They are really describing your business and how you're going to in So that's a huge thing that you have to actually pollmabous people have to understand just an afterthought, they have
to be designed together. So they need to come together and design that in a very deliberate and thoughtful way, right, while also thinking about how might someone abuse that because they opposed this to everyone, to partners, to the public, to random people right that we met, Hey use our API, that's nice. How might they abuse that because they will? Right, No, that's right. So that gets into the whole security issue. Let's talk about that and I'll bring in our next get. As soon as I started
researching for this program, in my mind was that exact question. It's like, Okay, if this is your new entry point for requests to serve your prospects, your customers, your high value customers, or your freebee customers, whatever, well, lots of people are going to be trying to come in that door, and lots of little tricks, like you know, over the
years of sequel injection is a real problem for organizations. Phishing attempts through email like they're are bad guys everywhere these days, and they love to get creative about a sneaking team environment. They have thoughts of myself over the years, it wouldn't it be possible to sneak in through the API to talk about security
and what you do to secure your APIs? Well, yes they do, and I think I've read multiple reports from many different right across the market, and yeah, APIs are like the number one way that people are attacking, right because it's a programmatic interface which implies not just me, right, I actually need something an act that just click collecting that API. It's designed for that in facts like right, we're just going to send a million bots against
you, right to do something right? My yeah, take over and how take down your business? Buy all your sneakers or all of your ex boxes before Christmas? Right? All of these are things that bots have done. They've leveraged APIs to do that, so they're august to access it. But that also means attack do and so watching, I mean sit in there, getting observability into see very very important you see to log in and say, oh here's me, I'm x y Z request could you please give me some
stuff. Here's me, I'm ABC request please give me some stuff like That's that's a critical part of the process is as it comes in, like do I like you? Are you okay? Or should I shut you off? So I'm guessing you create blacklists right for people who come in, and they usually do it by proxy too, so it's hard to keep tracking them.
But that is that one of the tricks that you use is to kind of set up a list of troublemakers and say nope, don't let them in if they come in from that address and I don't know, we know the neighbors, we don't want them. That's you can do that, but the list would get so big because most of the right the attackers are able. They're using machines that they've compromised or boxing with this API. What are they doing?
What are the technique can see inside of the data that they're sending, inside the network information they're sending, So observability is huge because you have to see the network characteristics, the TCP stack, and then the actual requests that they're making in order to kind of form a picture of is this a BOT I don't like or is this a valid user right now, that makes sense. Let's bring in our next guest. We've got David Linthicum of Deloitte waiting
patiently in the wing out there. So, David, you've been the cloud expert for decades. You've been tracking this stuff alone a long time. We even joked in the broth EAI, I remember that enterprise enterprise appatient integration right when we've got a point to point stuff. Now you've got Kubernetes andalponent that's changing things up. But tell us the latest that you've seen about APIs and
API management and what you think folks should do. Yeah, APIs are becoming everything in terms of how you image infrastructure, and so certainly in the clouds, we've always been accessed via well defined API. As Lee say's the way
now that we're getting into a multi cloud deployment. He mentioned that up with our existing on premise systems, by the way, throwing edge computing and by the way, throwing all the net new AI systems that have come online in the last couple of years, we have a plexity issue, and the ability to mediate this complexity typically means that we're getting at these various systems through very similar interfaces that are able to operate across operate across resources, and so API
has become insists with the ability to back those resources down into common layers, are able to access knowledge engines, as behaviors, as application data, things like that. That's able to reduce the amount of complexity and increase the agility of the business. The ability to orchestrate and reorchestrate business processes to align directly to the business needs versus building everything as a one off application development project that
occurs within a particular provider. That solves a tactical problem, it doesn't solve the strategic I think fundamental issues that people are running into today. There's too much, too many moving parts out there. We went from like three thousand services under management to ten thousand services under management. The ability to combine, to manage and secure them through a single single interface layer only we're going to
make cloud that's a great quote, right thresh write that down. The only way we're going to make cloud scale is to be more respond to APIs is what you're saying, right, absolutely, and we've kind of lost that as a as a talent. We know how to leverage APIs, we know how to leverage micro services services as far as how we design these property lay just
mentioned it. The ability to have different API patterns that serve different purposes, streaming data, the ability to have information that's for APIs to produce behavior, the ability to have them act upon things and act upon data and be able to reuse those from the main to domain to domains seem to be some kind
of a lost art. And we've had this. We had the rise of service range architecture years ago, and everybody thought they were going to get really good at, you know, leveraging orchestrating these services into reuse and common sets of systems. That hasn't. We're not putting reuse into thinking how we're designing
APIs, which has to be on the critical path. Yeah, that's a really good point in I've thought many times about the history of SOA, and oh, it seems to me that the best practices of SOOA have sort of been baked into the cloud these days. And even though we don't talk about service orientation, it just it became a mindset of how to do things and find grain and coarse grain, for example. And so even though this Kubernetes generation is not a perfect analogy. It's attacking some of the same needs,
the same business needs, with some of the same principles. Right it is it is, and ultimately it becomes a very standard way and a common ecosystem where you can build and deploy these APIs, And I think that's a very helpful thing. We just sometimes speed and the ease of developing these things, what I call the speed of need, can get in the way. We're not doing enough and designing these APIs so they're reusable across domains. We're typically
designing them so that the purpose built for a given application task. And that's not what architects do. I mean, Laurie said something very profound. Architecture is a representation of the business. Absolutely it is, and the ability to get to one optimized layer to bring the most value back the back to the business is really is really what it needs to achieve. And we're missing that somehow. We seem to throwing lots of technology, lots of very good technology
at these problems and we're just kind of making things worse. We're in a hole and we keep on digging. Wow, that's pretty interesting. I think we should dig into that. As I think to myself Again, what you're trying to do from an API management perspective is get people what they want. Right. So from a data delivery perspective, you know we've had all sorts of different ways to deliver data. Right. We have data warehouses that gave
us the refined data. You have data federate, relige and caching to say, ah, I know lots of people are asking for this, I'll just have it at the ready boom here it is. Sometimes you get a deeper request that takes more of the back end. Yeah, it does. Does. You need to monitor and design needs to perform well. And they have to be designed around multiple purposes and the way in which leverage the data. They can't be purpose built or attach tole cominality services. So we can we
can start behavior caching. We can start with these services are able to span different applications in different use cases, and that's kind of where we're missing the mark. We have the tools and technology to do it. We have the API management systems that are well advanced or what they were five years ago. I'm just an extent and how they work. We just need to use them properly and think through these would think through in terms of getting these deployed and
in a better these APIs right right. We need some simplicity and some orchestration. Will folks will be right back. Don't such that dow you're listening to Inside analysis? What are the fear massile? Not on sandsle not on sand, but on the bedrock of a modern blockchain ecosystem. The first Internet gold rush made millionaires, The second wave is minting billionaires. But the third wave is just gathering now and anyone can get in on the action. Hop online
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This is not an offer or commitment to lend subject to borrower improperty qualifications. Not all borrowers will qualify terms and conditions supply. Welcome back to Inside Analysis. Here's your host, Eric Tavanaugh sat all right, tickets to the future, and next guest has been focused on the future for a long time. He's been looking down the barrel of the future trying to figure out, all right, how can we plan for this, how can we get around this,
how can we leverage these amazing opportunities coming through the cloud? And that is Matt McClarty from Boomy. So, Matt, I think you were the one who mentioned on our show about a month ago the amount of metadata that Boomy has because thank goodness for YouTube, right, just like putting stuff together, if you find the video of someone who can just show you do it, that's a real examta Wittgenstein quote when he said some things cannot be said,
they must be shown and show someone how to do something. Oh my god, is opposed to those diagrams. It's like three D diagrams that they try to show you, and like, is this the back is at the front? Is that the screw that goes in here? Like what reading that documentation is just such a pain? Writing documentation as a pain. Of course, now we have large language models that can absorb massive amounts of documentation and give us some information about it. That's pretty cool. But with all that
as a background, Matt, I'll throw it over to you. What's the late it's an API management and how is Boomi making lines easier? Yeah, I think no, great, great point. In fact, I would say that when it comes to API management, I think I don't think there's any way to ignore the age that we're in now. You're talking about the future and looking down the future. It's like the future hit us pretty hard this
year with a high level of a sudden exploding ont of the scene. So I've been spending a lot of time kind of thinking through where does AI leave the API space? Right? And I think you just mentioned the example. They are large language models coming up with with succinct summaries of things, which is great if they're accurate. They're not always accurate, right, So we're at a real point now of bology is for prime time, but also how
ready organizations are able to take advantage of the technology. So a lot of the yeah, we're our CEO is telling us you need an AI strategy now,
like we need to we need to do something right now. But the fact of the matter is, you know, being ready to fully leverage the whole AI takes time, and so we mentioned our experience at Booming where we've got this metadata that takes years to build up and lots of analysis and understanding and curation, and ultimately we have a good base to work when it comes
to making recommendations and doing things in the API management space. But not everybody has that, So so I think, yeah, it's going to have a huge act on every technology area. When it comes to the eyes, I think that that is going to impact the fact APIs and how APIs are going to impact the way people use AI. So the foremost migy space, how are people going to access these language models? It's going to be via API.
That's that's what they're doing today. I think we as consumers may go out and play around with chat, GPT and have fun typing, but for the large majority of commercial uses of AI technology, it's going to be integrated into automated processes and behind the scenes and systems of engagement user experiences. That's all going to be done by a term that's out there for like how do you actually interact effectively the way that can give you the results you're looking for
you do prompt engineering, what is the actual medium for prompt engineering? It's it's APIs for the most right, So you know, there's going to be I think that there's a huge role when we think about you regulate the flow of data between your organization and the AI models you're going to be working with. I think it's going to be impractical for most organizations to be taking you
know, trying to build their own just structure you need to do. That is for only you know, it's really only the hyper scale cloud providers and a few others who are going to be able to do that. So much better to focus on how do you protect your data interact with and a lot of that comes down to just working with your own data, governing your own data, cleaning your data, and providing the right context. So I think history in the API management space, a lot of the focus has been on
providers. Like when we you know, I've been in the API management business a long time. A lot it's a lot of companies who are saying, hey, we've got stuff, we want to turn it into APIs, we need API management. And you're going to see a whole new category of API management that it's required where companies are going to say, well, we're going to be consuming all these APIs. We don't want our developers just going off and plugging into every API that's out there in the ecosystem. We need to
have governance around that. We've been sure that we've got data privacy protective flow of TRAFFICO that we're protecting. Qual going to sort of invert the perspective on what type of API management is needed. There's going to be a lot more consumption of APIs and all out of players and that ran of API management. Yeah, I think that's a very very good prediction. Quite frankly, you think about the importance of leaning on these spigots, these faucets to get your
water. I mean, think about how in some older houses, if you're into the toilet or someone turns the washing machine on downstairs, all of a sudden, the water, you know, how it gets cold. You're like, oh, no, stand out of the way. Is the rule of thumb, you know, you're terrible about that. I mean, you have to be sitting there watching the data that's going out, what is behind.
We bolster all this stuff in you and to be able to handle all this stuff, and how do you manage how do you how do you throttle low value requests and how do you enable high value quest to get through? Are those just business rules or something that get impacted and you sense who's coming in now, sorry, you're in the low tier. I'd imagine that's a piece of metadata on the top of that request that's coming through. It's like okay, wait a second, and then when the big train goes through, they
paid a lot of money, then you get your stuff. Is that kind
of how it works? Yeah, I mean definitely. I think to David's point earlier about designed right, I think that people not only are they not necessarily designing api is to be developer friendly just from sort of structuring the message in the data, but you really need to think about the design of APIs from a quality of service perspective, Like that's a good analogy of these buildings in New York or shared accommodations where you've got all this plumbing and other electrical
wiring, all that stuff that's going to be the enterprises. So so not only do we have hybrid going on, they now are depending on fundamental services from third parties. They're already doing that for cloud infrastructure. I think a lot of organizations don't even realize just how dependent they are on API based services. It is so they might understand that they've got sprawl when it comes to
relying on SaaS appations comes to relying on APIs already. And so I think that I think to Laurie's point about layer the business layer of your infrastructure, if you think about allow you to have a more normalized view of what that looks like. There's a lot of what I'm now salves consumers of other adays. Having that understanding, having that observability and governance on it is crucial.
Just one other thing on the AI front that sort of relates back this is I don't think I think there's I am both an optimist and also I can be a bit cynical about this, Like there's an where can rely on APIs not only as only as places where they provide data, but as places where they collect data, Like there's you're going to get incredible. You have the
opportunity to collect incredible amounts of contextual information about your business. If this is your business layer, not only are you servicing whoever the consumers of these APIs are you're also at that point of consumption, you understand context. You you know, it's not it's not like it's just like somebody walking into a store using a credit card and you see a purchase. Like you've got the full
context and the digital footprint of people using these APIs. The more you're able to capture that context at the point of consumption of the APIs valuable insights which can be fed back in and so on and create sort of this flywheel effect. But that's the possible ability a lot of the crawl walk before they run.
Yeah right, you know, Laurie, I'll bring you back you since Matt was kind enough to reference here, and I'm thinking and I love this concept because we're going to do a show on observability later this week and Laurie mcvideoll throw this over to you to really should feed design because when you can see what it's being requested of your systems, then you can better understand how
to optimize those systems. You know we put behind this particular data store or that particular data store, because that's wing to me, that makes a lot of sense to kind of watch the ingress to egress what's coming in what's going on clues and design? Is your design and evolve your design? What do you think, Laurie? Oh? Absolutely, I mean it feeds. It
feeds both the business and right technical decisions. Right on the business side, if you have that context like Matt was describing, you can also ascribe it to a customer and you can look at buying patterns and habits and interactions and say, wow, they're not in right, sybe we should do something about
that. You can address it from a human element. But on the technical side, it's also well why right, Oh, because they moved to this remote Look, maybe there's an education where we can actually there so everyone there is getting better performance and actually start making decisions about where you distribute your your front end, your data. Right, put your security in a different place. Right, What is impacting the performance? Is it? Is it just
a bad switch? Is it? Is it a distribution problem? Is it a design problem? Right? Is this one API just pulling like too much data? Did you need all of that? Did you just need deliberate thoughtful Right, they've been touched on this. Right, you have to act right all right? Endpoint. It's imperative. Don't give out more than you need
to because that impacts performance and it's also a security risk. So you know, you got to approach it more strategically and more deliberately when you design the ap right, are you going to be able to feed that serve ability in and start understanding the impact and get into that you know, virtuous cycle of design and data right. Yeah, it's an interesting point, and David, I'll bring you back in. You know, I remember learning about code bloat
about twenty odd years ago. One of the data developers that a company called Damon Consulting where I was the communications guy. He those he used that term cobos at coblo. What does that mean? He goes, Well, basically what happened is when the processors got really fast, the developers got lazy, because he used to have to be real refined and very assiduous in your choice of co functions and how you layered them, how you strung them together.
And then when the processers got bafter that who cares to do it and do whatever we want? And that created code. Well, to pick on his Microsoft from years ago, and if you were to go into Microsoft World and then set open that document and a text desk editor, it was like four pages long. I'm like, Okay, I don't think I needed all those meta tags. Microsoft, thank you very much. I appreciate it, but
that was a bit of overkill to use Laurie's term. But but what do you think about all David, Yeah, I think it's I think it's spat on thinking. I mean, the reality is we're seeing code blood today around AI based systems that are built around developments and others using autocoders and things like that that are becoming very inefficient ways to do things that are fairly simple.
We're making We're making simple things complex. So as we move forward, the ability to have the ability to see the span of what these APIs are doing, you just kind of hit the whole observe ability piece, but which I think is spot on. It's about looking at something in more than a single
dimension. And so Laurie's example with the ability to link performance into customer interaction, link to revenue, and link to industrial behavior and link that into the future vision of the product, and all these sorts of things that people typically don't think about. Your ability to understand API design and how you build APIs and deployee APIs and secure APIs and the context of all that information really kind
of is the secret here. And the reality is we have the information, we have AI opspace systems, we have observeability systems that are built into DevOps, we have certainly lots of best practices and how we build APIs. We're just not thinking about how we do this in a tactics way. So we're getting to the end state. We're building APIs and I tell this to my teams. Figure out which one is going to bring the most value back to the business application or even serve the user. Well, in other words,
we're productizing things. We're thinking in a different way. We're suggesting a while getting a quality of service that's going to provide it by this API that's typically not And we have to kind of take our games level based on the fact the stakes that are on the line right now from many of these businesses,
and certainly AI is going to change the dimensions there. But we've got to be able to take this information, do something useful with it, turn it into engineering disciplines and the ability to produce these things with product like efficiency or just not there yet. Yeah, those are all excellent points, and when you think about just how important These APIs are for acting as gateways not just to innovation, but gateways to anything, gateways to getting data to do stuff
in the business. You realize how important it is to get some consensus around this with folks. Don't touchet, that will be right back. You're listening to him. Are you paying high fees and getting low returns? If? Oh, Annuity General would like you to have this free book to learn the pitfalls and mistakes of buying an annuity. The Annuity Dues and Don'ts for Baby Boomers contains the little known truths about annuities, like how to help reduce your
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Eric Kavanaugh. All right, folks, back here on Inside and Else is what a fun show to mcbiddie from F five and David Lent the Crumb de Lloyd and our good buddy Matt McLarty from Boomy, And we were just talking about architectural designs and busy being the enemy of creative and I thought to myself, Matt, you had mentioned that mindset is really important here, and it's always important, especially in architectural discussions, because if you solve something way up
high or way down low in the architecture, that can have a trickle effect and improve everything along the way. And it reminded me of my childhood. And I was really blown away by Carl Sagan and he was talking about a two dimensional world and he did like a little exercise where he had bits of paper on a table, and he said, these are two dimensional creatures.
And I'm moving and rest someone comes along and picks one up, and now it's in the third demand and that little piece of paper can see all the other pieces of paper down there, like Holy Christmas. But that now I can see everything. That's why I couldn't get over there, because this guy was in the way and that guy was in his way. I'll never forget that I was. That is very very interesting to step outside of the construct that is confining you and see it from that perspective, and they're all,
what do you think? Absolutely? I think. I think mel Conway of Conway's Law fame has been talking about this a lot recently about the containing system and always trying to think from the perspective of the containing system that contains the system that you're thinking from. So, you know, it's something that David was talking about earlier, how we can use APIs as a level of abstraction to just get us a lot further along with solving problems. But we're seeing
this all over the place. I think, you know, we've had for a while now, for years, maybe even decades, we've been running up against the capacity almost it's almost a societal weblosion now, the AI explosion. There's more and more reliance on this skill set around being a software engineer, and there's only so many software engineers out there right and there I would argue, there will only ever be you know, some percent can be software all
wired. So we need to think about how do you first of all, think more broadly than just taking the perspective of the software engineer, because you said, now busy is the enemy of creative software engineering. Software engineers are brasy that we see where design maybe gets pushed aside where people are thinking from the perspective of the learning pristmas because so much reliance has been put on these
busy software engineers. So I think APIs offer us the opportunity to come up a level and have a level of abstraction to make to bring more people of different backgrounds to be not only user technology, but builders of technology, builders of software based solutions, designers to some extent developers. And that's kind of in terms of the work that I've been doing and that we're doing at boom
Is to lower the barrier of entry. But I think even APIs themselves though, can present sort of a barrier to entry because they assume that developers are going to take in the specs, build the apps that use How do we
even provide even more abstraction and more accessibility? And I think that's another place where maybe AI plays a role here, not so that it creates a bunch of digital pollution, like as possible if you know, if you were to I've seen a lot of articles lately where people are saying, well, AI is going to write all the code, you don't need coders anymore, right,
Well, how many times have we heard that? And the fact is, like it will you know, it will just write it probably could write some stuff, but you're not necessarily the design problem comes in again, because you could write a bunch of like a Root Goldberg machine spaghetti coerciently. But I think there are ways that we can use AI to just be in more
inclusion, more people who can be builders. You're going to get more ideas, and you're going to get more perspectives, and I think maybe you'll get more of a of a priority around design and the human element of the systems that we build. But I think that's all very accurate and compelling. Lauren, do you kind of getting back to how the API layer is your isn't this layer? And we talk about data is the new oil and all this kind of stuff, and it is. It's valuable if it's refined, right,
if you do a whole lot with that has to be refined. But what I love about this conversation here is thinking about how old and how developers working directly with operations people fundamentally changed the relationship or the nature of it. And if you're building things, and it was great because you put these people
in contact, they can have direct conversations build stuff. Now, the documentation I think was a bit of a casualty and all that and so you knowing what was done and be able to fix it, that was you know a little bit of it. When I think about data people as well, sitting at that table talking about the data, because the data tells you moving through your organization right now, that's what your organization is doing. And APIs are
this really interesting choke point in that process. So you know when you you can't have don't cover every space of any big open wall back. So that's and so in that sense, APIs are a tool in the governance space. What do you think oh sure, sure, And I mean ultimately you're you're talking or the problem of silos. Right. We siloed, right, and we broke the dev and the OPS silo and we said, here, play in the same place. Now, maybe they'll put out an API that's the
same. But the people over on the OPPS side and the network or the security side, well, they've got their own APIs. It goes back to it, you know David was alluding to earlier. Right, every cloud has their own API, and every tool had their own API. It's like the Saint Ives right poem, you know, and every cat had seven kits, and every cloud had seven APIs, and every API had set It just goes on and on, and it's complex, and it's all rooted in this idea
of silos and building ivory towers and kingdoms and right. I mean, we could go into the philosophy of all of that, but it's it's really that we've got all these silos and we just keep excluding people and so we don't build and think from a higher level, I need this, so I'm going to build an API to do it, and I don't stop and think, well, but they need to do the same thing. It's just maybe a different data source or a little bit different. Maybe we should talk. No,
I have to get my stuff done right. It's just so it perpetuates rights. It's just continually this problem of we're building things down here instead of up at the higher layers, at an abstracted layer right above everything. That's a good point, and David, I'll bring it back, and we have a good comment from our virtual studio audience here. One of our folks is saying, you know, good point. What is broken that needs to be
fixed? Calling it design distracts from this fundamental in my opinion, I mean, you do have to watch out for these words, right. People here like an assessment. It was like, no, I'm too busy. But how do you articulate this to the business? I mean, obviously people in certain roles are going to know the chief technology optor, the IO, the C cell. They all need to know about this stuff. How do you get other people to care about it? I guess the question, David,
Yeah, I think you need to put it into tiers. So we'll put a developer and we'll put an architect for a particular application to deal with all the tier laders down to the resource APIs that we're dealing with, and I think that the API line that we need to get into is so specialized it probably warrants that we have a certain community of users and designers and engineers that just deal with the API layer and therefore if they're able to develop amazing APIs
that are able to do amazing things for the applications. And we have a certain layer right now. We have inconsistency with developing APIs within enterprises because we have different teams in there developing APIs using they think need to leverage and trying to build them as best they can and always silot as silt a silo to Laura, think that this is really kind of the common interface that gets into
the business. In others, if the business is going to be a giant application or data source into itself, what kind of APIs or interfaces or services do we need to stand up that best access is the business and that includes some of the AI capabilities that are moving forward to mass point. So then we can build applications very easily off of these systems. We can build rechestrations,
layers be easily off these systems. We just have the idea now that everything's down to an application platform and everybody's going to build in design and application, including the APIs. I think they should be torn off and they should be abstracted, and we have a certain level of expertise that works on the APIs for the particular business. Some enterprises are doing aspects of that, but they're not getting to a point where it's any We're at a level of scale
that it's beneficial. Yeah, wow, those are all excellent points abstracted out. It is a specialty. It's an area of specialization that we do want to still have specialization. I mean, it's it's so fascinating how this gen AI stuff is shaking up the educational world and the creative world, and it's just starting. I mean, I gotta tell you folks that we are at the first phase of disruption from these new foundational models is really what they are.
And right now they are focused on creating content, but we're getting smart about embeddings and vector databases and things of this nature. Anchors of truth is what Brian Raymond from Unstructured dot Io called it, and I heard that, I was like, oh, I'm gonna steal that term, but I'm want to use that every day, all day Anchors of Truth podcast. Bonus segment is coming up next, folks, seman Email infot Inside Analysis dot com.
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