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The information economy has a rod. The world is teeming with innovation as new business models reinvent.
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Inside Analysis is your source of information and insight about how to make the most of this exciting new era. Learn more at inside Analysis dot insideanalysis dot com. And now here's your host, through Eric Kavanaugh.
Field.
All right, folks, hello to welcome back once again to the only coast to coast radio show all about the information economy. It's called Inside Analysis. You're truly Eric Kavanaugh here with a couple old friends and true visionaries in the fields of marketing and analyst relations and public relations and strategy. We've got a Misha Gandhi who got me into the whole influencer marketing thing years ago, about six
years ago. I guess time flas and have fun and tom Ogen Taylor as well, and folks, we're going to talk about Ai jenai and how it is changing the game across the board. It's changing business, it's changing workflows, it's changing our priorities and what does it all mean. We're going to get to the bottom of it in this show, and I'll give you my thoughts to start us off here. Jenii in particular has opened up the portal. Everyone now understands. This stuff is powerful, it's real, it's amazing.
It does have flaws. Jenai is probabilistic, so it's wrong about twenty percent of the time. If it does a good job, it's wrong with twenty percent of the time. So you have to use it at a certain con text and we'll talk about that. It's great for getting you eighty percent of the way there with copywriting for articles, for ads. It writes haiku for crying out loud, it writes all kinds of stuff, but you have to fine tune it. You have to pay attention and use it.
And general Ai, not Jenai, but old Ai, let's call it is everywhere as well. That's building models, deep learning models that will optimize some part of your business. Think ab testing or think churn customer churn, watching out for that, lots of different models. They're going to be everywhere. They're already everywhere, but this really is a new era in business.
And so on today's show, we're to talk about some ideas for how you can map out your plan and your strategy to leverage these technologies responsibly and change the game. And with that, Amisha Gandhi, I'll.
Bring you in.
You know, you were way ahead of the game with influencer marketing, as was Tom. And now you and I are talking about what's happening in the workplace and things are changing dramatically. There's a story, oh jobs are going to go away. I think jobs are going to change fundamentally, and so we have to change org charts, we have to change how we structure our organizations and how we divide up the work. And it's all still kind of in flux, right, yeah.
I mean we're two years in, right, So everyone was freaking out first about Genai L's going to lose their job, and now the shift is really it's a tool, right, and things are happening with the announcements all the time of new tools making it and kind of democratic, democratizing content and other things. Right, But AI has always been around. Now there's Geni, it's jenai, and it's.
Like really accelerating.
So we're seeing a lot of new roles that have emerged, right that people are now becoming prompt engineers. Right, no one will ever have a first bad draft. There's a lot of things around governance and like the language model, where is it pulling the information from? So there's a lot to talk about, a lot to look out for, But you're really looking for people who have strategy around AI who can be prompt engineers. How you're bringing it into your you know, it's in your marketing stack already,
Like you said, AI is already built in. How you're building jen ai in as part of your workflow, right, So not really replacing jobs, it's really allowing marketers to focus on strategy while AI handles some of the execution and data crunching.
Right.
And then you are also looking at teams you need to upscale and get people trained right to use them as tools rather than just hiring AI specialists.
On going to be so many people, right, And then you have a junior team.
You're going to people coming in that are alrea, you're going to be trained. You have you know, an older workforce that's training, so you have to really think about that things other things like you know, you can really hyper personalize. We've always talked about that marketing and you know, we'll get into that in a little bit. But you're looking at a velocity and content being created, and I think now people are really thinking about what is a
quality balance? How do you create high quality differentiate storytelling using AI?
Right, you can use.
It for ideation and drafting, but you still need that strong human oversight layer to make sure it's creative, authentic, and it adheres to your brand voice. Right, So where are you pulling this content from? Can you just pull from your own content so you can make sure there's cases where people are getting content from their competitors and point on their website for their blog post, right, So you really want to prevent against that. Right, you have
analytics and decision making. You are not just collecting data now, you're actually going to get AI first insights from the tools that you can create and have your marketing stack. Right, So you're just getting a first party data enrichment, and now you can get even more advanced audience segmentation.
Data back to you.
Right, So AI can synthesize all this Now you used to have to synthesize this all myself.
Now you have AI.
They can do it for you, right, And that can really not just give you back your data and your demand gen, but it can inform your messaging you're positioning, how well it's doing, what's resonating, right, And then you know how people are structuring their teams.
That's also really interesting.
So let's you know, I want to hear what Tom has to say, and then we can talk a little bit about reschooling, retooling and how people are structuring their teams.
Yeah.
No, you made a whole bunch of really good points there. The one line I'm going to pull out is no one will have a bad first draft. That's a really good point because again, Jennai is good and people have to understand these are consensus engines more than anything because of how the AI, the Jenai works, It's been trained on all this text, this giant corpus of texts, and
it's just pattern matching. So when you give it a prompt, it pattern matches and goes, oh, this person is talking about a marketing strategy for a fortune five hundred company. What are the key components. It'll be very good at that because it's very well published. But it is just giving you the average of things because it's mathematical. It's probabilistic in nature, which is also why it's wrong sebtimes. So those are really really good points, Tom, I'll bring
you in. I mean, you are the influenced marketer. You've been doing this stuff for a long time, so you realized a long time ago that there's real value in connecting brands with key influencers for a variety of reasons, for content, but also for advice, for consulting, for awareness, and for just kind of triggering ideas and the idea flow. And that's kind of what you use jen Ai for these days, right Tom, What do you think?
Yeah? I think that you know, for a long time, companies have struggled with producing content which is actually going to be engaging and actually grab the attention of their constituents, their their ideal buyers. And the problem is is that most companies really just don't have a lot of budget, or they don't have a lot of will, and they just end up doing more of the same, right, So it's oh, our budget got cut this quarter, Well do more with less. Okay, Well that's only going to get
you so far. And because of that, influencers have actually risen to you know, the rising up to the top of the of the awareness level, if you want to call it, that somewhere were people are noticing them now more than ever. And that's not just in the consumer space, but that's in the B to B space. And the reason for that is that, well, they have audiences, is they've generated over time because of the condo quality of
content that they produce. And you know, some of them are independent analysts, some act as consultants, some are pure content creators. It's sort of a mixed bag all over the place. But the fact is that by engaging the influencers, you can actually engage ultimately your ideal buyers a lot better. Now the GENI stuff is really kind of coming into the four because again, I think a lot of companies will be like, wow, great, we can have blog posts
generated seconds. Well, again, you know, the first draft will be better as a result of GENI. But you really have to go in there and edit that. So that's a human function, that's not that's not really a GENAI function just yet. And then if you really wanted to do it even better, you'd sort of direct the GENI AI engine, like whether chat, GPT or perplexity or whatever else, you direct it to sort of mimic a voice. So,
for instance, that's what I do. I direct chat GPT to go to my website, to my LinkedIn profile, and I train it to start seeing the patterns of my own speech. So then when I get a first draft, it's even better than it would be normally, right, because it's using my nomenclature, my acronyms, you know, it's using the patterns of speech which I exhibit in my own writing.
Right, you're talking about patterns and language models.
Right.
That's why I think a lot of companies are looking at they have a ton of content already, is can you pull from what we already have, right?
Or you know?
And it's Tom makes a really good point. What you put in is going to determine the outcome you get back from that AI no matter what you're using.
Right.
And so one of the points that we were talking about earlier before this call was or before this chat is Tom was saying, you know, we can get like we put everything into chat GPT or you know, Gemini or whatever it is. Then you can put it into other language models like Hemingway or like copywriter GPT or whatever it is, and you can get a much more curated But if you ask it to put it in the voice word count, make it similar to this, but have this voice, but only pull from these articles and
pull from these notes. You're going to end up with a really amazing first draft. And then you take it and you put you know, you curate it yourself, right.
Well, and this is actullently that right. Well, this is a good point is that there are multiple models and they do different things in different ways, and they specialize in certain things, and so that's going to be an evolving landscape over time as you'll learn that perplexity is really good for this kind of workload, Gemini is good for that one, and then all the other sort of traditional EI models we talked about, like a B testing or customer churn or pattern recognition, you know, any number
of things, and they is going to be figuring out where in the workflow you insert some bit of AI or JENAI, and there are lots of options for doing that, and I think that what you're going to see, because Amisha, you hinted at this earlier. What you want is for there to be this continuous, virtuous cycle of getting insight from the engines, using that insight, getting insight from the engines,
using that insight. And my prediction has been for a while now that most of the value from GENAI and even traditionally I will come in the form of suggestions where you're getting ideas and you can just actively do that, or you can set it up to passively do that, but you can put these engines into workflows. And let's face it, I was always joking with myself about OPS and we was talking about marketing OPS and data OPS and dev ops and all this stuff. Well, what is ops.
It's the actual work only that's operations is the stuff that humans still have to do. Right, So marketing OPS is changing dramatically, and that's top of mind for cmos, right.
Yeah, I mean, look, when we had marketing OPS, they're pulling together all the data from all these different sources and you dump into something else, then you'd get analysis and then you have to go back because what you really need to do is if you really want to drive the business, you have to be able to go back in that business meeting with your colleagues, right, the other sort of heads at the company, product, customer, sales, everyone else, and be able to say, this is what
we're driving, this is why we drove it, this is what's working to drive the actual business and bottom line, right, because that's what they're really interested in.
Right.
It's people talk about brand and colors and website, that's all plays in. But the end of the day, we're really on the hook for a number in marketing, right as a leader, And so when you're thinking about that, you want to show up with that insight the more because sometimes you can bring back insight to the company and say this is what's actually happening, this is what
we're finding. And then when you're working with sales together, you're kind of having a reality check of it's working and what's not based on real data and real insights and have all the data. There's so much data out there, it's overwhelming. You really need that layer of analysis, right.
And then so you know, one of the things that we were just talking about, how is everybody going to structure their teams now, right, Like, when you really think about it, we're two years in, so a lot of people are doing you know, in the beginning, they were doing kind.
Of pods and they still are and this seems to.
Work really well where you have cross functional teams that bring in someone who knows AI right with content creators, data analysts, and campaign strategists and you're kind of all sitting there together in this pod, and that pod can kind of inform the rest of marketing, right, but they're really the content, data and campaign coming together. And you have a pod so that is really focused and dedicated, and then you have someone who's trained and knowledgeable right
in this kind of new era. But now we're two years in, so you're going to be able to find people who've done it and be able to hire them or hire a consultant and bring them in. And then you have you're talking about ops teams going to have now AI ops teams. You have revops DevOps, right, but you have revops in between marketing and sales. You're going to have someone on that team that are going to
be managing implementation, tool selection compliance. That still has to happen because you're going to be You're still building out your marketing stack, right, You're going to bring in some AI tools. What what are you going to bring in? How are you going to integrate what you already have?
So you kind of need in your marketing ops rev op you need that or you need that there, and then you really have to take a look at your strategy for the year and think about, Okay, how am I going to make because there's a lot of heat like do more with less that we have like.
Hybrid human and AI collaboration.
Model, because now you have to think of AI as a team member, right, You're not replacing, but as a team member. So your team is focused on strategy, creativity, emotional intelligence, and the AI is handling execution, automation and data crunching. Right, So you really have to think about when you're structuring your team. It's now the tools become not just your marketing stack, but it's almost like it's a factor and a team member.
Almost.
Yeah, that's an excellent point. And I love this concept of pods. And I'll share something that I learned gosh twenty years ago almost at a conference at TDWI conference in fact, with Maureen Clary and Kelly Gilmore, and they did this session called something like Power and Politics or something, and it was role playing, and so you'd come in
for this session. It's like an all day session and they'd like hand out cards and you'd find out what role you're supposed to play, and it would be like, you know, junior associat or director or VP or whatever, and you had to tackle projects and just see what life was like from that different world. It was incredibly elucidating because all of a sudden, senior executives remembered what it's like to be a junior analyst, you know, to
just offering ideas and getting ignored, that whole thing. But what I learned there, I MG, here, we could pick this up a little bit in this segment and then in the next epic maybe is and I'll throw this out to Tom maybe first or and then a Michigan comment. I learned the ideal team side is four. And the reason I say four is because at three it's two to one, At five, it's kind of three to two. At four it's always even, and it's not often going
to be three to one. So it's like it seems easier to come to consensus when there are four people talking about something and you have to decide, because let's basically the business, you have to decide. You have to make decisions and then monitor how well that works and then adjust. But Tom, what do you think about that?
That's interesting. I've never heard about the number four being the optimum size of a team, but you heard it here. F I've noticed that smaller teams three to three people on up you know, four or five, six, seven. I mean that works. I see it with my own clients on the team meetings that I attend with them. Conversations can flow, ideas can flow, and we can come to a consensus about pretty quickly about what we want to do. So I think that that there's probably a lot of
legitimacy to that. I love the idea of pods. I think that's really neat. I think one thing that a lot of companies still struggle with is well, how do they organize themselves these days? Because still many companies, in my experience, don't have a direct line of communication with
the sales team. And as somebody who works with influencers, I hear from influencers about feedback about a company that's not always favorable about the company, right, but they need to hear it, and I bring it back to them and I bring back from the form of constructive criticism. But the sales team is also out there hearing things too, right, So when you're pitching somebody, you're going to get feedback pretty quickly about you.
You're reminding me of something, I'm going to throw us out as the segment it's coming to a close.
Though.
We use read AI and a lot of people are using these tools otter. There's a whole bunch of them, and they capture all the notes, they do transcripts, they give you talking points, they give you next steps actions, all that stuff comes right out of the box. And so now as an individual you can use that to kind of manage your own workflow. But managers, if they get access to all those individual ones, can summarize all that.
That's what I made was hinting at earlier. The demver crunching in the summarization can be done by AI, by jen AI. So what happens is the senior directors can see what's happening and they'll get little prompts that say, hmm, things are starting to fall apart. In the East Coast division. Call those people now, well, folks, don't touch that. That'll be right back. You're listening to Inside Analysis.
Expected, welcome back to Inside Analysis. Here's your host, Eric Tabanaugh.
To show all right, folks back here on Inside Analysis talking all about jen Ai and ai and automation and how they're changing the game in business writ large, but a lot of us here in this coll we focus on marketing and messaging articularly vision value knowing what to do, and that's one of the big issues. And you know, we picked up I'll pick up on the end of last segment. We were talking about read Ai and otter and even zoom has its own thing and teams has
its own things. So there are all these tools you can choose, pick and choose from. But the point is one of the most powerful aspects of jennai is this summarization components where you can take a big chunk of texts and say, summarize this for me. It does that very very well. You know, I've heard some concerns that it tends for in long documents. It pulls from the front of the end, not so much from the middle. So there are some interesting issues to kind of watch
out for. But that is incredibly useful. And when you think about the time you used to have to spend okay, what were the action items, it already did those for you and it sent it to your team. So like this is a point about closing the loop in like near real time on action items. Who should do what? And just the fact that everyone knows they're being listened to by the machine and it's all categorizing everything. It puts a little more pressure on folks to pay tention
to do what they're supposed to do. What do you think of mesia?
I mean, I don't think it's the pressure of what you know, because people get comfortable on teams and everyone's there and they can hear everything. But I think would you want, like, as a marketing leader, do you want like my time? My time is valuable, right, so what could I be doing? What work I could be accomplishing? Instead of writing summary notes, you're saying like, oh, here's
the action team, go do it. You know, if you had something like that and then you dump it into like an Assana or Monday or whatever it is, and now your team's working, right and you've moved on from the meeting, you have the action items you're actually working versus you know, putting in summaries and this and that, and then for data doing a lot of analysis for you so you can look at it, look at it deeper to the double clicking, you know, kind of ask
the right questions. And now we're getting into AI where you can start asking it question like even in finance CFOs, can you know all the tools? Those companies who are doing finance right, they're putting an AI and you can ask it a question, Hey, can.
You pull up the invoices from blah blah blah? Can you show me a trend?
And it gives you the answer back instead of you having to dig and spend like thirty minutes reading everything and going, oh, this is the analysis?
Now is there?
You can do a quick double check you always want to write, So those things like in marketing, if you get that kind of summary and analysis, you're saving time, you're making decisions, and you're moving a lot faster. Right, So I think this is the speed to market. The speed to getting things done is getting faster. Right, Like when we had Slack, all of a sudden, from email to Slack to text, it was like work was moving faster.
Right now with AI, it's like work is moving faster.
We're making better decisions, We're getting better outputs if you do it the right way. If you junk in, junk out, remember that, don't rely just on AI. And then you know you're really looking at creating teams that can be productive. So you're not going to have job loss. You may
have job gain. Right, but we already talked about the first segment, right, so as we go forward, we really need to think about, you know, how we're going to use this and things like hyper personalization, which is always been talking about marketing is going to actually happen now, which is very exciting.
Yeah.
Well, and I was thinking as you were talking, what was in the movie office space? They are the reports that I want to everyone to write, the TPS reports. I just asked Jenai, what were those reports in that movie office space? The TPS reports? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna need you to come in on the week and yeah and write that TP we see it. No one likes to write a TPS report, Okay, nobody likes to do that, So to have the machine do it for you is like oh MG, And then to Amasia's point,
this is a really good point velocity. We were talking about the three v's variety, velocity volume. Of course there's validity or veracity or whatever, but the bottom line is the pace has kicked in to a whole new phase. Now, Tom, I'll throw it over to you, and and organizations have to find a way to kind of capture that energy. This flywheel concept that I love, right, A flywheel captures energy and attenuates, right, So it it helps smooth the movement to the vaal. And that's kind of what we
have here. And we'll talk about knowledge management in the next segment too, But it's like you need this sort of flywheel in your organization to absorb all the incredible input you're getting from this AI and jen AI and be able to control how it affects your day to day processes and your workflows.
Right Tom, Oh, Yeah, I'd say that that's pretty spot on. Any sales organization understands the power of momentum. So the more that you start getting prospects into the pipeline, the more you start being able to close them, then you're getting new ones and it just sort of snowballs because there's an energy to it. I think that a lot of marketing organizations are slower to see this happen, or to acknowledge it, or to even know what to do
with it. So a lot of organizations I see are sort of still sort of struggling what do we spend our time on? Where do we put where do we put this amount of our time to get the maximum ROI on it? And I see them still struggling with that. Yeah, they're experimenting with a lot of gen AI tools and I think that those are helpful to them, but they still don't know how to implement a lot of this stuff effectively yet, and I think that's where they're kind
of lagging. But the momentum part from the marketing aspect is very powerful too. And Amisha knows this a little bit better than I do, because being a CMO, she's seen it in action. You get the right people in action with the right direction. You tell them where we're going and how we're going to do it, and then you tell them this is what we need to do, and then you just start implementing and start so it just drives itself, though it's almost times hard to put
the brakes on which you get it going. But by that point you've got a really good snowball effect going and not only producing high quality content that is addressing the needs of your buyers and engaging them and hopefully bringing back you know, demand to your own or organization that way, but you know your whole team is then motivated as well. The team is teams like to be.
They like to see action too. They don't want to sit around in meetings, you know, spinning their reels trying to figure out where are we going and what do we want to be when we grow up. They want to be doing and they want to be putting things out there and seeing the results as well. So right, that's where a lot of this stuff can really help if you know how to put it into place.
Yeah, and seeing the action, you know, seeing is believing, And that's again a power of a lot of this GENI stuff is that you know, hitherto if you had some big report that came out that's twenty thirty pages, we'd have to sit there for an hour or whatever to try to absorb it and understanding. Now you get is dump it all into a GENAI engine and ask
it for a summary. And you can also get it to summarize very complex data, I mean, and that's really powerful because what I've found is that if you get resistance within an organization, it's usually because people either don't want to do more work or they think that, you know, this doesn't make sense. And when you articulate it properly, you get one of my favorite expressions with which is you know when you put it that way, because that means the mind has just changed, the mind just opened.
When someone says that, it's like, huh, now that you mentioned it, that's another one now that you mentioned in huh, it's kind of forgot about that or whatever. But that is the process of elucidation and innovation, right, Emisia.
Yeah, it is.
And you think if people understand the why, like especially marketing teams, they understand why you're doing what you're doing.
Instead of like being told like, go.
Do this and people are like are you doing this, it's like, oh, here's the why. The submon Sinic says that understand the why of yourself. Understand the why you're understand the why of why you're doing what you're doing.
Right.
If you understand that, then that will help your team kind of like swim in the same direction and then we are talking about Jenai. But even in any new technology that comes out right, everyone looks at.
Marketing like, what are we doing? This is a tool.
We're all, like Tom said, we're all learning, we're all experimenting. No one has the right answer're all figuring this out together. But again, it's a tool, and it's not everything in marketing needs to be Jena. You still have you know, you have demand gen yourself, have data, you have all these other things you're doing. This is just a tool that's going to help you right with velocity volume.
And one thing to keep in mind is, you know, we always.
Talk about in marketing personalization, and we do it by industry, by persona, by within our IICP. With Jenai, it's allowing you to curate experiences for your prospects and customers that are really personal so they can ask questions. So now when you go to somebody's website, you can ask a question instead of getting a can't answer. If you do it right, it's based on your own content. It's learned right, so learn that language model is coming back and there
are tools. There's somebody who does like I forgot the name of the company. Now they're BDRs and they're like actually on the website and you can ask questions and it will give you the answer back about the company and try to set up a demo with you.
Right now, when your sales person or BDR gets.
On, it's it's just a qualified They know what they've talked about. They know what to send to them as a follow up from a marketing nurture. Right, so now you can use it to do the touch points based
on what they clicked on. Oh, this is what they get next because they like this, instead of us nurturing and saying, oh, we have like ten weeks or six weeks of emails one, two, three, four, five, six, Well, maybe I'm the person asking it likes article three and they've clicked on that based on that, Now we're going to serve them this other webinar. Now they've clicked on the webinar, they signed up. What are we sending. Oh, this person's signing for demo. We need to flag that
to sales. Right So there are tools like six cents and HubSpot and everything else is helping us figure this out.
But then you have Genai, which is adding.
The content and the hyper personalization to it, so you can do a buy industry by persona, by company size. However, you see that audience segmentation, you can use the AI to really get personalized information. But that's going to make the experience on the other end much better, and they're going to lean in and be much more engaged because you're engaging and meeting them where they're at in at scale.
Right before scale was the problem with personalization.
So I think that is where we're going to see a lot of really great impact.
And we're seeing that impact.
So even with Amazon their AI personalized shopping experience, right they're able to take that data because they have so much volume on customer behavior, they're able to take that and have the AI learn and now it's optimizing. Here's what you need to do to get everyone to buy with one click this. Do these things and people are more likely to click and buy.
Right now.
It's a lot dangerous, right, but that's that's what I'm talking about, right Like you're it's basing it not only on what content's working, but on the behavior it's seeing.
Right well, And you can draw on these engines to fill in very big and cumbersome gaps because you know, I'll throw this over to you.
Tom.
You can use it as as to make recommendations for example. But you can also, let's say, in a customer service example, someone calls in. I noticed this years ago USAA. It was one of the first companies to really figure this out, and I was so impressed. This is like in the early two thousands, I want to say, or I would call and they would say, oh, we recognize your phone number,
so you know, they knew it was me. And that means in a well defined system in information architecture, that will trigger a query to my record to bring up what I've done lately, and it can have a recency bias. So oh, well, he was on the website earlier and he called in earlier this morning. Okay, something's going on here.
You can trigger actions and then thanks to the power of Jenai, you can actually suggest to the person in your call center in real time what's happening, Suggest this, ask that, and then the beautiful thing is in that case it is just a co pilot. You are still the pilot, the human You're the pilot. It's the copilot giving you useful information in real time. That is a magic formula. For customer experience, right, Tom, what do you think?
Oh yeah, I mean you're seeing that all over the place now. So like airlines, will you know, for instance and small you tend to book an aisle seat, so they're going to you know, they're going to suggest the aisle seats you now. I mean the other day I was on the over the weekend. I was talking about two different topics. One was Jaguar cars because we were looking at an old, older one and my my wife
and I think we're commenting on it. And then then secondly, I was always talking about roofs because my mother in law's house needs a new roof. So before you know it, I'm starting to get these ads popping up, our content popping up in my feeds on Facebook and whatever, saying you know, well, here are different kind of roofing materials. You know, are new ones. You know, it's not old just asphalt shingles anymore. It's these now. And I was like, oh, that's kind of actually interesting.
Pot at the customer. Yah, it's a customer.
So in a way, yeah, in a way it's creepy, but in another way it's sort of like helpful. Right, So it's like oh okay, yeah, that was top of mind. I am kind of interested in that. Let me see what they've got here, you know, maybe we can are to investigate that a little more more closely.
Can you talk about it? Yeah?
Sorry?
The information information economy, now it's not just like the behavior that we see from people. We can actually get even more behavior because they're going to ask questions and we can say, oh, people are asking these questions.
Why.
So now it's like even more of a double click into not just like their actions, but what they're asking and why that action is happening. We're learning, really learning where that intent is coming from.
Right.
That's the key is intent. And I can tell you I've been doing email marketing now for about three times longer than the average veteran in the field, because it's like twenty I'm afraid to admit twenty five years I've been doing email marketing. And once you can see who opened and click, man, you can't go back into the darkness. You know, you just can't do it.
Now.
The data is a little bit fuzzy now, at least on the clicks on opens, it's still pretty clean. But once you can see that, it's an immediate response, and you know where to focus your attention. That's what I learned immediately when I became self employed back in two thousand and three or four time frame. I had a friend of mine build out a list from Yahoo groups. That's how old this was, way back when it was
Yahoo groups. And I found business intelligence consultancies. And I got a list of about one hundred email addresses and I put them into my email marketing software I was using at the time, and I sent out a blast saying, hey, I focus on business intelligence, I'd like to help your consultancy, et cetera. To one hundred people. Of the top five I focused on because they had the most opens and the most clicks. I'm like, Okay, those people I know
are interested. The people at the bottom of the list, where it's like no opens or one open, I'm not going to worry about them. I focused on the top five, and within a year I closed every piece of business. I got business from all five on the top five of that list. I was like, this is the way business should be done, because now you know where to focus your attention. That and this will be a theme
we'll pick up maybe in the next segment. Here, folks, but knowing what to focus on, especially if you're in the marketing world, because guess what, the world is changing all the time. Words look, buzzwords change all the time. You have to be careful because this one's outdated, now this one's new. We don't want people to misinterpret this. There are all these things that go into your messaging and that's how you articulate what your business is about
and find your ideal prospects. But don't touch that down. Folks, will be right back. You're listening to Inside Analysis.
You expected.
Welcome back to Inside Analysis. Here's your host, Eric Tabanac.
Show.
All right, folks, back here on Inside Analysis. What a fun show with my longtime friends and colleagues and visionaries Amisha Gandhi and tom Ogan Thaylor. We're talking all about Ai Jen Ai, the changing landscape, how things are transforming before our very eyes, and personalization is key. We'll talk in the segment about knowledge management too. But she had a good point about how to get personalization right to go ahead.
Yeah, So the.
Reason why hyper personalization is going to be really important is because now before we base personalization on more of a mass behavior, right by groups, different groups now we're looking at the individual level, so it's you're getting serve content, you're getting serve recommendations, you're getting served. The next step in like a B to B sales process or you know whatever, it is a nurture marketing nurture based on what you did, what you're interested in, So it's based
on your own individual preference. Right, Like I'll bring a simple example like Starbucks. It's going to recommend to me everything that has oat milk in it because it sees that that's my history and that's what I like, and I don't order any sugar, so it's not going to offer me those sugary drinks. It's going to offer me
different things based on my individual preference. And then if somebody else, like you know, if my son is ordering on his app, he's going to get like a lot of hot coke, like you know, different things offered to him and food items because it's not based on my preference only, it's based on his right. So it becomes very individual. And that's happening in B two tech, right.
So then you're getting that curation that prospect is having a really good experience and they're going to be more engaged because it's based on their interest, not what you think their interest is.
Wow, that's a great way to put it, spitily, in your interest, not what they think your interest is. It's your actual history with an organization. And yet this is not a lot of these things are new. But the fact is the tech stack is there now to support this, and you can do it in a financially viable way even if you're not some huge company. I mean it was probably ten years ago I was learning about some
of the really big brands. We're doing these hyper personalized profiles on individuals, and you would have a score basically about you as a person. Well, you have to manage costs, understand what can you reasonably afford. But to Amasa's point, hyper personalization is personalization about you and your behavior so far as I the vendor or marketer know. And that's really powerful stuff, Tom, because when you market some thing to someone who you know wants something like that, the
engagement goes way up. If you're spamming people, and that's what no one wants. It's just nonsense, that has nothing to do with me, that I do not want. That's spam. I don't want that, And you know, we've seen this. The whole email world got really hit hard. It's still hit hard. What are my buddy Corey Yanson, who ran a cycled techopedia, he made such a good point a few years ago. He's like, Yeah, if femail's dead, why do all these social media engines use email so much?
Because they're all emailing you, like Facebook and LinkedIn, like hey look what it happened to here?
Hey, well look get out there.
They're always like barkers, like trying to bring you to their platform. But to kind of pull this all together, the knowledge management side comes from leveraging all that data, and with Jenai layers, you can now analyze large, unwieldy chunks of unstructured data to learn something about Tom Ogan dailor right, Tom, what do you think exactly?
It's like it's the difference between driving on a highway and seeing a billboard right about some thing you probably don't care about, ninety percent of them you could care less about, and instead having that billboard say things exactly that you're interested in. So, from my earlier example, like whether it's Jaguar cars or putting a new roof on the house, or you know, whatever, other thing that's top of mind to me. I mean that compare those two
different you know, those two different scenarios. So yeah, so I mean the GENII stuff is just making all of this happen a lot more quickly and efficiently, and it's being able to help marketers in our case what we're talking about here, to dial in on where they should be spending their time, what kind of content they should be creating, and where they should be distributing that content sea blasting it out and throwing spaghetti on the wall,
so to speak. I mean, now it's well, let's put out one blog post that's about this topic, because we're hearing from a lot of our sources that this is what people will care about now. For a long time now, we've heard a lot about, you know, addressing problems. So good marketers should be singling out different problems that they're identifying out there in the marketplace, and they should be addressing those problems. But take that even further about your
ideal buyer. Your ideal buyer in this particular part of the you want to call it the sales funnel, right as it's a marketing term. But as people move through the funnel, to decision. You know, they're they're encountering different questions along the way and they're trying to answer those
to the best of their ability. Imagine if you could pick out those people in those different parts of that funnel and direct that content too, whether it's from an influencer, whether it's from their own you know, their own blog poster, whether it's you know, some article and sme as has generated recently a subject matter expert you know, so you know, imagine it being like that.
Yeah, it can be, Yeah, it can be very powerful.
Like the last company I was at and it was leading the marketing work there, we found out that it was like fifty six touches before we got to close to close somebody.
We actually looked at all the touches we already do and we did a lot more, you know, wrote data analysis.
But now with AI right some of the new tools that have popped up, we got that down from fifty seven down to twenty six touches.
Right, Like, we really cut.
That funnel in half because we found there were things that were just junk. We got rid of it and honed it and we were able to get people to move faster through the funnel because it was more relevant, and they allowed them to lean in better and we got rid of a lot of people along the way because they weren't interested, so we were able to also filter much better.
And that's this is really important. And you know, again in the new world of knowledge management, you can leverage all this first party data you heard of me just say that at the top of the hour here. That's a new buzzword, I promise you, and it's going to be very prominent because first party data is that data
you already have. If the data you have about your customers, your products, your behavior, your clickstream analysis, whatever it is, you have data in your organization, I guarantee you have that data. And now with Gennai you can leverage that data much more easily by just grabbing chunks of it,
throwing it into the Genai engine, asking you questions. And the more relevant you get, the higher that open rate gets, the higher the click through rate gets, and it's sort of a virtuous circle that just kind of goes around and around. I know we've got somebout four minutes left, three minutes left from the segment, but I shall throw it back over to you that story about shortening it from fifty seven touch points to twenty six or whatever.
It's wonderful because it shows number one that you had the data and you looked at the data and you realize that's a lot of touch points to get.
To the nut.
Right.
I think about the how many licks does it take to get to the center of a TUTSI pop?
Right?
You want to get short as possible, not too short, you know, but you want to get it to where it's like okay, and that's when you know you're on target. And that's good for morale, right Eisha.
Yeah, it is because then you're giving sales and you're feeding sales things along the different touch points that actually work, and we're not wasting their time, Like if you're managing like an SDRBDR team, right.
And I've done that in the past.
One person can only make certain amount of calls and emails a day. Do you want them wasting filtering?
No, marketing.
The better you filter, the better intent, the more success and the conversion rate goes up.
Right.
And That's where I'm the hook for. And then along in the sales cycle, somebody goes dark. Are you nurturing them right away? What is working in nurture what brings people back. And then this is going to inform your account based marketing strategy. Right, you do one to one in the enterprise, you're selling to enterprise companies, but there's a lot of tech and a lot of people selling
to mid market companies. Now they need to do it at volume, and so Jenai will let you do this at volume and scale too, and it's going to affect things like ABX ABM and make that much more viable for one to many model.
Yeah, and you know, to close the loop on all this revops. We're talking about ops, marketing OPS, data OPS, DevOps, AIPS, all that stuff. Revo with revenue. I know for sure, salespeople really cruise when morale is high, and when you close a deal, your morale goes up, and then you close another deal, and then you close another deal and it works well. Whereas if you are just running into walls, it's very demoralizing and it's just it's a downward spiral. So the key is to figure out how to get
that upward motion, how to keep people engaged. And there's a pat to that, there's a cadence to that, but the time, like a minute and a half left. The key is to keep morale high, and you do that by reducing friction points, right.
Yeah, reduce the friction points and give people the tools and the know how to do it better. I think that's a lot of it. And I think a lot of marketing leaders now inside of organizations are going to have to show their people what they want them to do and what they want them to spend their time on. So right now, you know the meeting notes thing that
we talked about. That's great, let's do the meeting notes. Okay, chat GPT Okay, you can use it to generate you know, if you're struggling to rate an email to somebody that's going to be a little bit difficult, pop it in there and see what kind of suggestion it gives you. Okay, a first draft is easier to work with than no draft, you know. And then it gets even you know, into the data as to the sales team and all that stuff. I remember when I was a salesman in a financial
organization many many years ago. You know, we would look very carefully at the market and listen to the market. Should we be marketing corporate pension sponsors? Should we be requargner, cash managers, treasurers or whoever. And you know, we would adjust what products we marketed to them based upon the feedback we were getting from the people that we were speaking to and from the analyst that gave us the information within the firm.
Right, And that used to take days or even weeks. And the point is now that could be done on an intra day basis. And it depends on your business model. But you want to have that virtuous circle going around and around, fueling the next decision and making sure that you're grounded in your own data. Will Folks, you were listening to Inside and Out and podcast bonus segments coming up next, stand by me all right, folks, back here on Inside Analysis. Time for the podcast bonus segment with
Amisha Gandhi and tom Ogen Thaylor. You're surely Eric Cavanaugh talking about closing the loop with Jenai and marketing ops and data ops and AI ops and using AI to your advantage in Amisia. I'll throw it over to you because you made a great point of the break about how Jenai now gives marketing a real tool for explaining to the business what their data means.
Right, Yeah, I mean we've always had the tools right, but marketing is on the hook, and so a lot of people think marketing, oh, we just deliver leads and we do that's gone. That's old old school marketing thinking. What we're actually doing is like, how do we drive to help drive the bottom line? How do we drive market awareness? How do we lead markets? How do we make markets?
Right?
Marketing can do that.
So and we're a revenue based function where we help build the business. Right, we do brand and everything else, which everything everything's is pretty, but we can help build the business. And your CEO comes and says what is going on, You're able to say, here's what's going on. Here is why, and marketing is bringing insights back into the business to help build a business. Okay, this content
is working. This is what you're talking to sales and they're using their data and saying here, here's what's happening across the entire customer journey. You're talking to customers. Now, your go to market strategy is much better informed. You're able to figure out who your ICP is for real, because everyone's ICP is not correct all the time. I'm still finding which is crazy, right, it's either.
Too broad or too narrow. It helps you do that. Then it gives you that personalization.
Now you bring all of the learnings back not just to marketing, so marketing can do a better job, but back to the business overall, the customer to this. You tie all of that data and it's about orchestration now, right, that data, orchestration and insights within that executive team. Now as a business, you're making better decisions overall by looking at all of it in a holistic picture, right, And
that marketing can help bring their piece in. But you tie it all together and you orchestrate it not just across marketing, but across sales product. Then you're getting into really good GTM. Your go to market is just much better. It's more strategic, it's more informed, and now you're helping lead the business. It gives marketing that seat at the table I think in a much more solid way, and it makes it easier for us to say, this is what we're doing, and this is why it's working and
what's not working too. So it's going to give us a lot of that and we're able to bring that back to the business and really help lead it.
Honestly, I think.
Well and you know what's really interesting here is that content sells. I think most people understand that, depending upon what business you're in. I mean, in consumer goods it's
not as much. It's more on the product than the pizaz and so forth and B to B For darn sure, you want really good content that articulates your value, articulates your either technology or your service, and so to have that feedback and to understand which pieces of that they're working that should drive the business, right, Tom.
Yeah, exactly. I think there's an old saying in the marketing space about content is king, and that remains the fact it means true. But now the quality level of the content has got to be higher than ever, and it's got to be more personalized, as we've been discussing throughout this whole show, and addressing the needs and the concerns of the ideal buyers more so than ever before. Now, the wonderful thing is that Jenai tools can really help
you do that. And as Amsha was just saying, if you can bring back this data into the organization through the marketing channels and the sales channels combined and then actually start to drive the business bottom line with that information by steering the organization in the direction it needs to go. That's incredibly powerful and I don't know of any CMO right now that would turned down that kind of an opportunity, right, And we're.
All learning how to do it right, So it's that's the whole thing. It's a learning process as we're all learning what tools are working. The tools we've already used like six cents up, so they're building an AI into it, right. New tools are coming in, new companies are popping up, so you know, I think we have to keep abreast and knowledgeable, but we have to keep our ships running, right.
So you're not just going to innovate for innovation's sake, right, So people are going to bring this in slowly and figure out what's working, what's not working, learning from each other, Like I belong to several groups, so people are talking about, hey, I did this, it worked for me, check it out, what have you? Right, But we're still you know, we're still business leaders, so we had to really look at
things and bring things in. It's not like we're saying, oh, JENAI is here, throughout everything you've been doing, revamp everything. We can't do that because we would not get the results that we need. It is kind of like this thing where you know, when the Internet happened, things change quickly, but they also change slowly within the.
Org right, like people brought it in. What are we doing? House is helping?
Right, and so we're the process of learning, but it's just happening a lot quicker now.
The velocity change is faster, but we're still learning right.
Well.
And you also both made a really good point one way or another, which is give credit where credit is due. And what's great about this observability that we now have into all the data, understanding the data, being able to analyze what was very complex data just a year and a half ago, you can now distill very quickly and very effectively and share with the rest of the organization. So people know. So the marketing people know what the
salespeople are dealing with. The salespeople know what the marketing people are dealing with, the administration knows what the different component parts of the organization are dealing with. That sort of empathy I think drives collaboration and really improves morale overall. Tom final thoughts from you, well.
Great, well, I think that yeah, the human component remains supreme because we all, as we should just said, have to learn from all of this and we have to be able to apply it within the context of our own organizations, right, And that doesn't it's not a cookie cutter approach. So what works for one company might have to be nuanced and changed when you move to a different company, right, because their constituents are different. So I
think that that's a lot of it here. We have to keep flexible in terms of our thinking, but at the same time we have to be we have to be willing to learn new things. And I think that that's what's being people are being tasked to do more so than ever these days. It's to learn these new tools.
How can you best be apply them? And one of the best ways to do that is just start to apply them in your own work life, start to improve your own workflow, and then you can start to help others on your team about how to do something similar, and you know, it goes it builds from there.
Yeah, and you reminded me of something Steve Lucas said. He's now the CEO of Boomy. You think we all know Steve, He's like one of the nicest guys and best leaders I've ever met. I mean, he's just a very bright star and he cares about his team. He cares about people, and that really shows. And he said that he instructed his whole team. You will use jen Ai in your workflow, find some way to use it, play around with it, and that's how you understand, that's
how you learn. And that's what we're in right now. As a Misha said, we're all in this process of learning. What are all these new tools? How can they improve our day to day operations, our workflow and help us collaborate better. That's the objective, that's the mission. Sixty seconds. Final thoughts from you at Mesha.
I think, look, Jennai is here. We're all using it in different ways.
It can improve. But it's a tool.
Remember it's a tool to help you do your jobs better, make your teams better. So get you know, bring in training for your teams, understand how it's working, you know, get smart, right, and you should also, like as Tom said, use it as yourself too, right. Don't just expect you know people and don't you know management Ivory Tower. But I think we all kind of get to get into the weeds with it, learn from it and then we can bring value back to the business for better outcomes.
And then don't forget we need to also have some governance around it and some rules around it, as you know, where is it pulling the information from?
Is it the right quality?
Right?
So we still have to have that QA check.
Also, it's not just like you know, Pollyanna right, it's like, really do the QA check on it. And then, like I said, it's like we're all learning, we're all figuring this out together. I think the companies that are going to innovate will do it in a really great pragmatic manner by experimenting while they're keeping the lights on. And they're the ones that are going to lead their businesses in and really lead the charge and bring in some revenue for their business.
Yep. And it's all about the revenue. Well, folks, look at these folks up online, Amisha Gandhi and Tom Ogan Thaylor. His name means I on the coin.
How do you like that?
It's cool stuff? Of course you're truly Samon and Nei. If you want to be in the show, info at inside analysis dot com. We'll talk to you next time you've been listening to Inside Analysis.
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